/wodg/ World of Darkness General

My Mage works as a bartender on weekends. It pays the bills.

How would you handle Lifepaths in WoD?

I mean, I know how I'd mechanically do it. Divide everything up into about 350xp (nWoD2e) and separate things into little packages of about 20xp each, each "level" of life being worth the same experience. Start out with giving a basic array of Attributes (not quite 5/4/3), then through three or four life events give out Skills, Merits, and Specialties.

It's just that I don't really know how to structure a lifepath, and I don't know what events to use, since WoD characters are generally regular people before the start of the game.

>>43736111
I can understand bartending as a hobby or cause he likes that particular bar or something, but your mage either lacks power or imagination if he needs to work to pay the bills.

>>43736238
Or he's not hubristic. I played a poor Moros once. Admittedly he was a Necromancer, not an Alchemist.

He once pawned his Abbey Road album only to find out it was a fake, and ended up helping an old man's ghost so that the ghost would write him a check. But usually he was against that for moralistic reasons.

>>43736234

You'd definitely have to go through "life as a human" stage with things that represent birthplace, early childhood, teenage years, any potential higher education/training, then career (s). Then you'd do a "life as a supernatural" phase with things like how they became aware of the supernatural, how they attained their first new powers, and so on. The latter part would definitely be the hardest, because you'd need completely different paths for every game line. And that's before you get into game lines like Mummy or Demon where you're not playing John Q. Public who gets abducted into the hedge or bitten by a vampire.

It'd be a challenge, but I think it's doable.

>>43736263
I'm thinking doing only mortal/hunter for now.

>>43736275

Definitely a good place to start. The major stages I'd hit are birthplace / native culture, early childhood (4-12ish), teenage years, early adulthood (going to college, joining the military, getting a job, being a worthless NEET slacker), then a brush with the supernatural. Don't forget to package in some Virtues, Vices, Aspirations, and Breaking Points in with the things as well besides just XP.

>>43736238
High Wisdom. He's a fate master, so if he wanted to be rich, he could be. He does well for himself, and has made solid investments.

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My Changeling works as a Doctor.
He'd learned enough about medicine and biology, stitching his fellow captives (and himself) back together in Arcadia, and then as a street doc for the Freehold.

Then he made that deal with the Mastigos, and after 6 months, of which he has no memories, he's fully certified. Hurrah!

He also likes to tend to his garden, practice fencing and spy on his fellow Lost for his new lord and master, who regularly vivisects him to figure out how this patchwork person of tattered flesh, sackcloth and straw works.

>>43736378
This is why, when converting the Shadowrun Classic Advice to NWOD, you keep 'geek the mage first' but change 'never, ever, cut a deal with a dragon to 'never, ever, cut a deal with a mage', as well.

He sort of lost touch a while ago. Purified going through that stage where they consciously shuck off humanity because haha fuck you I am a god before wising up.

Doesn't help that he hangs out with an apostate obrimos and a rahu ghost wolf. Earns an okay living using the city transfer numen that I forget the name of right now. He rents himself out as an unstoppable suicide bomber to Jihadis

>>43737151
Walking the hidden path siddhi. That's it. Combined with twilight shift he's roughly 48 hours away from a blow for holiness at any given tjne. Starting to wear on his psyche tho.

So has there been any recent news re: the rebirth of White Wolf and what that means for Onyx Path?

>>43737151
>He rents himself out as an unstoppable suicide bomber to Jihadis
Don't you need to spend months or even years trying to find your body each time you die?

>>43737232
Nah. It's expensive, essence-wise to reform from scratch, but he has a 2 dot locus and knows of a few locations of others.

If you die in spirit form you spend a while in the void - centuries, if you died in the lower depths.

>>43737232
If your body is no longer useable (blown up) or reachable (bottom of the ocean) you can make a new one instead.

>>43737339
Do need the 2 dot ritual crypt merit. But not hard to get.

>>43737376
True, but any Purified without it (it's actually one dot) would be competely retarded.

>>43737392
>>43737392
Hell. Storage owners probably have a standard 'creepy kid' package for 20 somethings who want to rent 30 years in advance under a false name and check on it every few months.

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Jessica Jones was put up a few hours ago. Anyone else watching it?

Feels very World of Darkness. A mortals+ game.

>>43737453
>no netflix in my country

I left /co/ to escape spoilers, seems I'm doomed.

>>43735760
>I think she was dropped by OPP. She was dropped by Catalyst.
I hope Matt and Rose are next.

>>43738270
Why would anyone want Rose gone? She's one of the best developers. She made people like Vampire for fucks sake. She was behind Demon (and so was Matt, actually).

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Gentle reminder that using Teleportation to appear at Order meetings embarrasses both yourself and your Cabal.

Nobody is amused by your posing.

>>43738303
Because she had gender-correction surgery, which thus makes her the core of the OPP SJW mafia, of course.
I personally think that Matt is a great writer, he just shouldn't be lead dev.
And Chris Allen should be lead dev of Werewolf.

>>43738351
>I personally think that Matt is a great writer, he just shouldn't be lead dev.
This. Matt has good ideas, but he cocks up every time you tell him to MAKE a game rather than improve it. He just lacks the mental capacity or emotional stability to do this kind of thing.

>>43735982
My werewolf's touchstones, at the moment, are his roommate, who he sees every day, and the hunt, which he would also ideally participate every day.

Granted, I currently have a Harmony of 8, so I don't give a shit about the Hunt in a touchstone capacity.

>>43738351
>Because she had gender-correction surgery, which thus makes her the core of the OPP SJW mafia, of course.

Funnily enough, I always got the feeling Rose is one of the most... capable of seeing multiple sides of an argument and the most all-around respectful person at OPP.

>>43738384
Except Promethean?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but seeing how pretty much all Sins against Synergy are related to death it feels like it would be fairly simple for a Sin-Eater to live a live of high-profile crime, rather than just being some punk.


>>43738650
>Except Promethean?
Promethean always felt like an attempt to be a Wraith-like "find yourself" type thing yet only succeeding in copying its lack of popularity.

>>43738351
Doesn't AmyV also have a penis?

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>>43738650
This, Rose may be trans, but she is not a SJW, at least not to the point of extremity. I would not be surprised if Rose had some SJW sympathies, but she's actually quite rational and one of the most reasonable people on Onyx Path.

So, I hope Onyx Path keeps Rose on board. She's a great game developer and an all-around decent gal from what I have experienced talking to her on Onyx Path.

Also, stat me, /wodg/. Preferrably in New World of Darkness.

>>43738698
>Doesn't AmyV also have a penis?
>also
Rose got theirs cut off. But yes.

>>43738788
Wasn't that Neptune's LI for a while?

So, which nWoD gameline is your favorite?

For me it's a tie between Vampire and Changeling.

Would a motherly Wizened work well as a Spring Court queen?

>>43738808
Vampire, very closely followed by Mage; 2e might just tip the balance.

>>43738808
Core

>>43738808
Changeling or Promethean

>>43738808
Demon and Hunter. nVampire is kind of lame. It's more "modern" and "flexible" and "toolbox", blah blah blah, but all in all it just ain't good.
>>43738788
Go away, you're terrible.

>>43738808
Geist, eagerly awaiting Mage.

>>43738788

I agree, Rose's personal views are certainly VERY liberal and no doubt sympathetic to the SJWs, but she's not nearly as pushy as many others at OPP, and her work is consistently very good. She seems to have far less of an ax to grind than others such as Matt, and recognizes that people who have different views than her are not all hillbilly troglodytes.

Matt's a more interesting case. I find his writing and development to be very inconsistent. Some material is excellent, and some is drek. Matt's recent attitude and work also seems far more overbearing and opinionated as of late, and I believe disasters such as Beast probably would not have happened just a few years ago.

>>43738808

My favorite is Mage, particularly in light of the recent 2e spoilers.

Although I think Vampire 2e is also quite good, Vampire always has the disadvantage of being the first game line to be revised in any series, and thus never benefits from the experience and feedback of later games like Mage and Changeling.

Beast obviously tried to experiment with some new ideas, and sadly was a terrible disappointment. If Deviant is not killed because of the Paradox acquisition of WW, I'm very curious to see what Dave can do with a totally new line.

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>>43738948
yfw Gamergate literally caused people to Dramatically Fail BREAKING POINTS on both sides of the divide.

>>43738986
So what you're saying we only have to wait for him to fall into Topor or get put out of his misery by a bullet between the eyes? Nice.

>>43735982
What are the big three? I'm new to WoD.

>>43739110
Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage.

>>43739131
>Core game is a sideline

>>43739139
It is when mentioning the big three.

>>43739139
Not so much that, as people not counting it as a full seperate gameline.

>>43738808

Werewolf. Then Mage and Hunter.

>>43738808
Promethean was the first I read, and the one I still find the best.

Only problem's that I've never played it.

>>43735982
My Beast works as a contractor.

>>43738808
It's hard for me to choose between Werewolf, Changeling, and Vampire. Werewolf used to be my favorite, then Changeling came out and supplanted it, but Werewolf 2e is really cool. Vampire 2e is excellent so it rocketed way up there for me.

I'm also a fan of Beast.

>>43738270

Is it really being "dropped" if you're a freelancer? Unless it's an active drop from a current project, I'm pretty sure it's just a matter of not being hired for current projects, which is a very nebulous state considering that few new OPP materials are currently in the hiring stage, at least as far as we know. You'd need an official statement or something to be sure of that.

People also leave projects of their own free will all the time. Freelancing isn't quite a binary "hired/fired" situation.

>>43736302
Making investments? Could you be more a servant of the Lie?

>>43740217
>I'm also a fan of Beast.

I guess someone has to be...

>>43740308
Or he's just swinging for a high wisdom

>>43740352

There's fans of everything in this world. There's even airport carpet fandom.

>>43740352
>I guess someone has to be...
There are Dreaming fans, so logically there have to be Beast fans. I suspect there is quite a bit of overlap.

>>43740308
Who let the Free Council in here and why does it think it's allowed to talk?

>>43740432

I dunno, Beast is much darker than Dreaming in surface aesthetics. The re-write also made some changes to separate the two

>>43735982
>How does your character maintain their mundane life in the face of the pull of the supernatural? Who--or what--are their Touchstones? Do they even have ties to normalcy, or are they straight up saying "fuck it" and going full time wizard?
My Mastigos is a psychiatrist working in a hospital he doesn't realize is an Archmaster's Wending.

He recently stumbled into the wings that aren't supposed to exist.

The Thyrsus in the Cabal is a field biologist employed by the local university, and the Acanthus is an independent journalist.

The Moros and the Obrimos both cut ties with their Sleeping lives.

>>43740352
Beast is a very interesting game in a really shitty wrapper. If you ignore a lot of the posturing and the sjw shit that's still in the book, and do still it down into "the purest form of monster wearing a human face", it's a very interesting game. I feel like you need a goal, though, more so than the other splats. Which makes it good that there are endgame situations to work towards.

Would Mummy be a better idea spliced into the Immortals book?

>>43741302
Eh, I don't know how you can truncate all of Mummy into a five or six page entry in the Immortals book and make it interesting.

>>43741302
Nah, not prevent Purified from having Numina

I'm trying to think of light and cheery adventures for a Mage game; something that presents magic as beautiful, without too much horror to darken the tone. The problem is, conflict is the source of drama, so a story that's just "Hey, this is nice and happy" isn't terribly much of a story.

I'm considering maybe something involving a group of ignorant mortals trying to develop overtop of a Hallow or natural demesne; something where the Awakened get to protect something blatantly magical. Or maybe finding a book in an Athenaeum that's got some pages missing, and needing to go about, gathering favours from other Mages to find out the ending to the story within it.

Any suggestions of how to do these ideas? Or better ones for a noblebright sort of story?

>>43741646
Give them something to save or protect. Make them into the problem solvers--yes, magic is dangerous, yes, it can be misused, but it can also be used for great good.

Give them a corrupting influence to fight against, and have people notice their work and have the world change to reflect it.

In other words, make them the torch that makes the world of darkness brighter, rather than the candle that struggles to stay lit.

>>43738678
What? Being a serial murderer makes it harder to be a Sin-eater. Also, honestly, I think it would be great to see Synergy (which has no sins, it has breaking points, they mention that like five times in the book) have a 2e overhaul, but I can't think of a way of doing it that isn't ripping off Werewolf.

>>43738788
>>43738948
>some SJW sympathies
Most reasonable people do. Only assholes and Republicans aren't sympathetic to "people should be treated decently". People seem to forget that "ESS JAY DUBLEYUU" stands for "social justice warrior", as in, someone who wants social justice. It's a term that gets thrown around more often than not for any queer or ethnic minority who happens to say they want the kind of protections afforded by the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection clause or want social change that favours their right to exist without any more anxiety and bullshit than the average person. And I hate that everyone acts like that term is only some pejorative used for the crazy people getting violent because they see violence being done to their demographic. And, yeah, Rose is trans so yes, she's "SJW" because she isn't a horrible person and wants her trans brothers and sisters to get the medical help they need and not be harassed or beaten or murdered.

Not even Matt is some freak as bad as the out of context tumbler posts that get labeled SJW, or David Hill. No one thinks that people with different views are hillbilly troglodytes. They do however seem aware of the fact that a large majority of people are myopic and fail to realize that even without meaning to they say or do things that contribute to a more negative society. But when a handful of characters are gay or queer, everyone in /wodg/ flips out and says OPP is pandering... to the writers themselves, because when you're in charge you get to do that. Most people already do, it's just that the fans enjoy the same kind of pandering.

>>43738872
Core bluebook 1e was fucking atrocious in terms of mechanics and concept. It was a mess.

>>43738890
Have you tried VtR 2e? I hated everything about Vampire other than how Bloodlines were handled until Blood and Smoke.

>>43739139
It's like if people ask you what your favourite class is in D&D and expecting people to say "Player's Handbook".
"Core" isn't a gameline, it's just the generic rules. "Mortal" isn't one of the big three.

>>43741933
>Core bluebook 1e was fucking atrocious in terms of mechanics and concept. It was a mess.

But it had Skinchangers, Immortals, inferno, Innocents & originally Slasher.

>>43741646
Indian Jones Atlantean Artifact Hunting

>>43740352
I like the concept of Beast, and would like to run or play it, does that count?
My main issue is that there's no focus, so I have no idea what I'd do.

>>43741646
Searching for a lost Atlantean temple (in the city) and what's inside is beautiful. Also, I like the idea of finding missing pages.
There's one Grimoire in Grimoire of Grimoires that's basically Harry Potter. I mean, technically the characters could buy the mortal version of the book, but that spoils the fun (and they don't get the rotes).

>>43741959
And were any of those really mechanically sound?

>>43741982
>And were any of those really mechanically sound?
No, but conceptually they were awesome. Also Second Sight, which I forgot.

I like low level horror where you die because the guy in the trenchcoat saw you noticing he accidentally swished his tail

>>43741982

Innocents were fine, Immortals was OK. Slasher is still good, even though it's supposed to be a Hunter book. Inferno, Changing Breeds were probably the worst offenders mechanically.

Honestly, if we're going to take the WoD to task for messy mechanics and concepts, we're not going to have a lot left of it. That doesn't make them OK, but let's be real here: even on a good day, White Wolf has trouble into game designs.

>>43741896
>Only assholes and Republicans aren't sympathetic to "people should be treated decently". People seem to forget that "ESS JAY DUBLEYUU" stands for "social justice warrior", as in, someone who wants social justice. It's a term that gets thrown around more often than not for any queer or ethnic minority who happens to say they want the kind of protections afforded by the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection clause or want social change that favours their right to exist without any more anxiety and bullshit than the average person. And I hate that everyone acts like that term is only some pejorative used for the crazy people getting violent because they see violence being done to their demographic.

Congratulations on creating multiple straw men and then knocking them down.

SJW's are commonly understood to be people who go well beyond simple advocacy for basic equality. The fact that you hate that the term is widely understood and accepted to be pejorative is wholly immaterial. You are not the arbiter of what most people consider "reasonable." Your obvious sympathy for the cause does not excuse the excesses of certain advocates.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=SJW

>>43735982
>How does your character maintain their mundane life in the face of the pull of the supernatural?
They have to, or they die.

Being a demon is a bitch.

>>43742106

Shut the fuck up, Branford

>>43742146
Aww, poor you. It must be awful having super powers and understanding the working sof the universe more than any human ever could, while still having sex on a regular basis.

t. butthurt physicist who your existence makes meaningless

>>43742067
>Honestly, if we're going to take the WoD to task for messy mechanics and concepts, we're not going to have a lot left of it. That doesn't make them OK, but let's be real here: even on a good day, White Wolf has trouble into game designs.

I don't so much believe WW has a problem with game design, but rather some entirely unsurprising difficulty with consistent crossover of such a wide variety of different denizen of the WOD, many of whom are intended as PC's and incorporate significantly different themes and setting priorities. I'm still surprised that the NWOD 1e was as consistent as it was, and that 2e appears to incorporated yet more improvements. I doubt any other company would have fared much better given the size and complexity of the nWOD, and our expectations might be a little unreasonable.

>>43742029
>I like low level horror where you die because the guy in the trenchcoat saw you noticing he accidentally swished his tail
Damn furries, getting into everything. taking our Lodges.

>>43742208
I actually meant a demon rather than an animal, but ok. It's how I explained to a player how fucked her character was now that she knew that the shit that went bump in the night was real.

>>43740308
He doesn't use his magic for personal gain, but he's an awakening Gambit, so he works to awaken sleepers. So I think that makes it hard to be a servant of the lie.

>>43742176
>Shut the fuck up, Branford

Such a erudite and diplomatic reply.

It does, however, truly help explain why you don't understand or appreciate why being a "SJW" is not viewed positively by most of the population.

>>43742184
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I was First of my Ring in the Host, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on the God-Machine, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in technognostic espionage and I’m the top sniper in the entire American Agencies. You are nothing to me but just another cover. I will take over your life with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of Unchained across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking mine, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my mind. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.

>>43741896
>Most reasonable people do. Only assholes and Republicans aren't sympathetic to "people should be treated decently"
That's rich.

>>43742214
I was just thinking of the 'So this is how we're represented, unbelievable.' thing but with a Werewolf and Furries.

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>>43742067
Innocents had a few problems, Immortals was all around wonky. Slasher is completely fucked and feels like they didn't playtest.

I know 1e had problems all across the board, but they're worse in the blue book line.

>>43742029
Second Sight is also just woah terrible. Not as bad as Reliquary, though, that's the worst.

>>43742106
>>43742264
And yet I get called an SJW for telling people not to call me a faggot (outside of 4chan, obviously). Or explain why a trans person is the gender they identify, complete with providing scientific evidence. People who use the term SJW rarely if ever use it only for the people shouting "Die cis scum" sincerely. They call things like Polygon SJW because it has articles about how there are very few female or queer or ethnic characters in prominent roles. Hell, I've seen people say that 4chan is too SJW. 4CHAN.

>>43742338
>Innocents had a few problems, Immortals was all around wonky. Slasher is completely fucked and feels like they didn't playtest.

Stop being such a dicenigger, the point of WoD is to be fun not mechanically sound

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Would giving an immortal anything magic, true Mage magic be a bad idea? I figure as an immortal being they would be special enough to break the rules in such a way.

>>43742383
Purified 2e gave them rotes as powers

>>43742264
In my view, the Awakening Gambit works to, at best, slightly facilitate the awakenings of sleepers who would already do so and are pretty much on the cusp of seeing the Lie. But that's just because I believe there's no way real way to help others awaken and myriad ways to fuck up the process for them. Actively trying to help someone to awaken is, to me, the worst thing you could do for them.

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>>43742273
Starts out strong but sort of peters out at the end. I like where you're going with it, though.

>>43742357
Have you ever played any of those lines? I'm not going to say they're unplayable, but most of them are really not that great. The Undertakings for example are just not very mechanically sound, and the rules for them are convoluted. Any time I've used Slashers, I didn't use the Slasher template, or any of the weird Slasher merits that are barely balanced and yet seem like they WANT you to play a Slasher.

Most things in some of the blue book line could be done so much better in a different way. Case in point... >>43742383

This sounds like you're the ST, right? You can do whatever you want. I'd suggest giving the character a few Rotes. Don't worry about their actual Arcana or anything, just give them a handful of Rotes. If you feel the need to explain it, use something similar to the explanation of the Promethean Brotherhood: She eats Mage souls.

>>43742403
Not official, but pretty well put together.

>>43742338
>And yet I get called an SJW for telling people not to call me a faggot (outside of 4chan, obviously). Or explain why a trans person is the gender they identify, complete with providing scientific evidence. People who use the term SJW rarely if ever use it only for the people shouting "Die cis scum" sincerely. They call things like Polygon SJW because it has articles about how there are very few female or queer or ethnic characters in prominent roles. Hell, I've seen people say that 4chan is too SJW. 4CHAN.

You've already revealed you very aggressive and entirely dismissive attitude towards anyone who does not completely share your perspective on purportedly "social justice" issues, to say nothing of your abject lack of diplomacy and decorum. Accordingly, your description of your alleged interactions with others concerning pertinent topics should, at best, be taken with a great deal of skepticism.

In any event, you don't get to redefine the commonly accepted meaning of "SJW" because you're sympathetic with many, if not all, of their beliefs, and therefore choose to excuse tactics than most people, including a great number of progressives, find totally unacceptable.

Nevertheless, some people on the right are indeed assholes for a variety of reasons. What you need to acknowledge is that many on the right (and middle and left) are also people of character who just don't agree with your beliefs and perspectives, no matter how important they are to you. Similarly, there are those with whom you may basically agree with on social or other issues who are assholes no better than those on the right.

>>43742499
>Have you ever played any of those lines? I'm not going to say they're unplayable, but most of them are really not that great.

I have as a pure-core game, it was great. Every single decision the players made weight because a single fuck up was the difference between success and death.

>>43742499
>Starts out strong but sort of peters out at the end. I like where you're going with it, though.
I started thinking about what I was doing, and then I realized I was editing a shitty copypasta to post about a perceived slight on /tg/.

>>43742357
Slashers are designed as antagonists first and player characters a far distant second. It's like using the ghost or spirit rules to make characters; sure, you can do it, but it's not tested or designed for that.

>>43742618
I've had a spirit player.

Internal balance is overrated and what led to Beast

>>43742627
>Beast
>balanced

Choose one, senpai.

>>43742538
>you don't get to redefine the commonly accepted meaning of "SJW"
... which is "someone who's liberal views I don't agree with".
Use dictates meaning. When everyone uses it as a pejorative for "things I don't like", it doesn't ONLY mean the bad stuff. That's like the whole "black people and niggers" argument. Those fine upstanding black people? Still get called nigger.

>>43742550
I meant any of those mortal supplements, not "just core". Core is mostly fine.

>>43742569
Never stop half way. You gotta full ass it, not halfass it.

>>43742627
But Beast... isn't balanced. The developer even said "Game balance is a myth". He completely failed to understand that "Game Balance" doesn't mean power A does X damage so power B should also do X damage, it means "power A has this much ability to remove problems, so power B should solve just as many problems since it costs the same".

Instead "steal your soul" and "start a plague of soullessness" are exactly the same as "deal damage".

>>43742743
>you don't get to redefine the commonly accepted meaning of "SJW"
>which is "someone who's liberal views I don't agree with".

No, that's not the commonly accepted meaning, and again you present nothing by straw man arguments.

YOU define "SJW" as you do because you apparently agree with the attitudes, perspectives and self-righteous conduct of those who are accused of being SJW's, and thus see nothing wrong with them. The majority, including many who are otherwise fairly progressive, clearly do not agree.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=social+justice+warrior

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/social-justice-warrior

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2015/10/07/why-social-justice-warrior-a-gamergate-insult-is-now-a-dictionary-entry/

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/social-justice-warrior

>>43742383

Why mix and match like that? Mages already have a bunch of paths to immortality with horrible prices attached, just have a Mage take one of them.

>>43743067
It's not like it's a carefully defined term. Just like "communist" or "socialist" in the US. On /pol/, it means anybody who isn't for the eradication of non-whites, for example.

>>43741302
The purified are the spiritual successors of owod munmy.

>>43743067
>>43742743

Aspel, Branford, seriously. I'm glad ypu two finally found your respective pinching bags, but shut the fuck up. It's bad enough when there's one person can't stop arguing about the same shit, it might as well not be over fucking politics.

>>43742627

I feel the problem with arguments over game balance is that we're wrapping several types of game balance into one word. We need to start defining our terms better as a community.

>>43743234
God damn I want to play owod mummy.

I always jokingly ask any of the owod games I see if they would let me play a mummy, I have yet to have anyone say yes.

>>43743278
It's not that great. The chinese ones were awesome. Purified need three aspects. Cultural ones, like owod mummies, with minor drawbacks in exchange for s skill similsr to their owod parent, a pure one, the written purifed, and a greater version that pledges to some universal concept in exchange for responsibility and power, becoming a greater template.


Dragon and phoenix alchemy were so great.

>>43742383

Why would a Mage want to be immortal?

Considering the horrific shit they see and deal with on a daily basis a mage of moderate to high wisdom would see natural death as well earned vacation.

Even if they were a low wisdom nutcase with a grudge there is a 3 out of 5 chance they'd fundamentally know that seeking immortality is a bad idea.

A Moros understands Death is a fundamental facet of reality and is nothing to be feared in fact hiding from it would be unnatural and anthemic to their souls.

A Thrysus understands that the young must replace the old. Survival of the fittest depends on generational change.

An Acanthus would see immortality as twisting the strands of fate and opposing the natural flow of time in a person.

The 'best way' to become immortal for a mage is to reach the threshold and become an Archmage. Which is if you think about it more of a curse than a blessing.

>>43743067
I define it as I watch it used. End of story.

>>43743254
>I feel the problem with arguments over game balance is that we're wrapping several types of game balance into one word. We need to start defining our terms better as a community.
Possibly. The real issue is that abilities that give more agency should be balanced with abilities that give less. As opposed to "solve any problem" being as easy a power to get as "make one problem easier".

Powers should provide options, not solutions.

>>43743448
Liches are rarely high Wisdom. And people who see bad shit always want to be able to outlast the bad shit.

>>43743448
>Why would a Mage want to be immortal?
>Considering the horrific shit they see and deal with on a daily basis a mage of moderate to high wisdom would see natural death as well earned vacation.
1e, at least, kind of presented your current, Awakened life as your one shot at the "correct" destiny for a human: Ascension. Death, even natural death, is a failure state. Moros know that what happens to people when they die post-Fall is not what is supposed to happen.

>>43738698
Onyx path trap porno for kick starter backers when? Make it WoD themed.

>>43743487

See, that's what I'm talking about though. You talk about balance as if it's a binary thing, when it's actually multiple factors latched onto one word. Mathematical validity, mechanics transparency, player agency, GM protocol, player spotlight management. They're all interconnected, but still very important on their own and need to be approached on a game by game case.

>>43743278

I've noticed most people who want to play or run oWoD Mummy end up getting scared off by the True Name abilities.

>>43742538
this shit is so gay

go back to SA dude

>>43743813
>SA
>not laughably SJW

So, when you're making a condition in nWoD 2e, what's a good rule of thumb for determining whether or not it gives Beats and how?

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>>43743448
No I'm not making a Mage immortal; I'm giving something that was immortal magic. No not a PC character, more like the leader of a rival group. They've been around the world and are extremely powerful.
I think it would be spooky if they managed to pull off some Magic.

>>43743944
All Conditions give Beats on resolution. Most Conditions that can also trigger Beats before resolving are Persistent Conditions (including the Flaws from 1e) which aren't necessarily supposed to BE resolves (again, like 1e character flaws).

>>43744029

Ah, that makes sense. Clearly I wasn't reading the book close enough. Thanks for clarifying!

>>43743592
No, I'm just saying that problem solving potential is the ultimate metric of "balance". Things that solve more problems should have more "cost" than things that only solve a few.

>>43743888
And people wonder why I say "SJW" means "too liberal for me".

>>43743982
Well, it only makes a difference if it's MAGE MAGIC if the players are Mages and would know "this person who isn't a Mage is using Awakened Magic". And even most Mages wouldn't really know the difference and without long, detailed conversations would just assume the Immortal in question was a Lich.

Also what the hell is that picture?

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>>43744122
Nope no mages in the group.
I'm just wanting to make this particular character more threatening because of their age and imply that they are into some dangerous mojo because of their skills.

I've always assumed it was a werebat and her son out for an evening flight.

>>43744240
In that case do what you want mechanically. Hell, just use a Mage.

>>43744122

See, I don't think there is one ultimate metric of balance, and that's not certainly not one of them. There's a lot more to a game's abilities than just "does this solve a lot of problems y/n, if y make it cost X more". That philosophy also seems pretty at risk for the kind of stuff Chris was writing about earlier, where you can justify breaking the game to yourself by increasing the price of entry.

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http://debofnight.andcuriouser.com/
No deb link?
Well there is one now

>>43744586

When Paradox greenlights Bloodlines 2 or some equivalent, do you think they'll do something like Deb of Night in it?

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>>43744357
Chris was complaining that certain options are just better versions of existing ones, and that their cost is "thing I was going to do anyway".

The problem with Beast (and in some ways Demon) is that some powers are just better versions of existing powers that happen to cost the exact same. When the price of entry is more of what you were already going to do, that's one thing. But having higher experience costs for certain abilities that by the only meaningful metric are more "powerful"--that is, they have more impact on the game--then having them cost more is not a bad thing.

Take two made up powers:
>Power A makes people tell one truth
>Power B lets you search someone's memory for two truths
These shouldn't cost the same.

And here's the thing: Matt DOES understand that story effect is important. That's the thing he constantly asked the Developers. "Did this cause a problem in actual play?" He just doesn't want to acknowledge that sometimes just because something didn't come up doesn't mean it isn't a problem. But he dismisses people pointing these things out as "favouring white room combat" and other ways of ignoring criticism.

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>>43744633
I sure hope so, and well they do have some pretty funny Easter eggs and such in most of their other games.

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>>43744633
>implying they will not ruin everything

>>43744256
I was seeing if anyone here would object on immortal mages; despite what may be said /wodg/ tends to have good advice.

>>43744655

>The problem with Beast (and in some ways Demon) is that some powers are just better versions of existing powers that happen to cost the exact same.

Which ones are these?

>>43744763

I wouldn't object to it, but I would suggest being cautious. When you introduce a character that can't be killed, you close off one common door of problem solving. The trick then is to try to emphasize the other channels.

>>43744727
Prolly not. As they are likely to turn it over to Obsidian, whose track record is pretty good.

>>43744800
Ugh... I was talking out of my ass, I don't want to go search through to find examples of what I'm talking about. More common are powers that solve a lot of problems with little effort. Knockout Punch is a really powerful ability, for instance. Not because it's "powerful" in the sense of explosive potential, but because it has the ability to resolve dramatic tension with little effort. I mean, I've already been on the player side of being a Moros who spams Suppress Others' Life. There's not even any indication that it can't be used on things like Angels.

>>43744847
Most Immortals aren't Invincible.

>>43744763
Giving good advice is what I do.

>>43744847
They're the sort of immortal in that they don't age; but other ways of killing them still work.

I've never really been interested in the werewolves themselves; I just read the other books for spirit ideas or shapeshifters. Do they have a method of immortality like practically everyone else?

>>43745438
Their aging slows down. It is unknown if werewolves over Primal Urge 5 can die of natural causes. Werewolves regenerate from most injuries, and are immune to practically all diseases.

>>43744944

>Ugh... I was talking out of my ass, I don't want to go search through to find examples of what I'm talking about.

Provide examples or don't talk out of your ass next time. Simple.

>Knockout Punch is a really powerful ability, for instance. Not because it's "powerful" in the sense of explosive potential, but because it has the ability to resolve dramatic tension with little effort.

This brings me to my point: how would making this cost more, as you propose in your metric, solve the balance situation around it? "I punch, you go down" seems like it could be a problem no matter when the player takes the ability, even if you had to pay more XP or if there was some nebulous consequence to be had later.

I also wonder if the increased Defenses as of the post GMC rules (what self respecting character doesn't put dots in Athletics or some equivalent now?) can be a deterrent for the more egregious uses of Knockout Punch, but that's just irrelevant speculation on my part.

>>43745438
Werewolves over Primal Urge 5 live longer than most people; it's unknown if they're actually immortal, though, as most still end up dead before 150.

I know it's not really something another player could tell me, but I'm struggling to come up with a long-term aspiration for an upcoming Vampire game. The examples in GMC are nice, but what kind of long-terms have you guys had/seen?

>>43744800

Eye of Heaven is literally better than every Insight gift or discipline x2 (pretty much all of Auspex and all the Insight Facets combined). Like, it's literally bananas.

Same goes for From the Shadows. Literally more effective than Stealth in any other splat. There is nothing a vampire or werewolf (a mage could pull it off perhaps) to come close to matching that.

Also, I think they literally have the werewolf specific fighting style without the drawback of having to resist deathrage for the more powerful dots. (so all the benefits none of the drawback)

>>43744122
I don't think it'd be that hard for any mage with even the slightest degree of training to distinguish the difference between high and low magic.

A high magic spell brings down the supernal and immediately triggers the mages unseen senses.

Any other supernatural effect would look like some sort of ripple in the lie twisting an effect out.

>>43745519
>This brings me to my point: how would making this cost more, as you propose in your metric, solve the balance situation around it? "I punch, you go down" seems like it could be a problem no matter when the player takes the ability, even if you had to pay more XP or if there was some nebulous consequence to be had later.
Most games don't let you start with your super moves.

>I also wonder if the increased Defenses as of the post GMC rules (what self respecting character doesn't put dots in Athletics or some equivalent now?) can be a deterrent for the more egregious uses of Knockout Punch, but that's just irrelevant speculation on my part.
While Defense is now ridiculously high instead of ridiculously low, it's still much easier for an attacker to have more dice. The fact that one hit is all you need is another issue.

>>43745627
Powers should be measured in terms of balance within their gameline. Don't compare werewolves to vampires.

>>43745627
you mean Relentless Assault, which does not have a prereq of even being Supernatural?

>>43745599

Become prince or some other position is a go-to for an ambitious vampire. Become human is a bullshit one that a lot of people use. One of the guys in my group has the goal of killing his sire. You've got developing a bloodline, we've got a Daeva whose goal is to form a cult to worship him. Once you know your character it should start to come to you. Maybe more time playing him or her might help you decide and you could just delay it till then.

>>43745655

>Powers should be measured in terms of balance within their gameline. Don't compare werewolves to vampires.

Why not? If the games are intended to play nice with each other, there's no real reason not to try to balance all the splats with each other as well as within their own game-line. It doesn't need to be 1 to 1 perfect but it should at least be something in consideration. Isn't this one of the biggest problems with Beasts's balance, after all?

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>>43745648
Every supernatural effect triggers the Mage's Unseen Senses.
And what I said is that even Mages would have trouble distinguishing a Lich (a Mage grasping at Immortality) and an Immortal who can somehow call down Supernal magic without being a Mage.

>>43745665
Are you dumb?
Pic related.

>>43745724
Because "X can do more for the story than Y" only matters when X and Y are both things that your character can choose. Any Demon character can take Knockout Punch, but a Werewolf can't.

Beast's problems lie almost entirely with Beast. It does have crossover issues, but they're mostly extensions of the "powers that solve problems" issues. Hell, Beast's main crossover issue has little to do with power and everything to do with purpose.

>>43745724
B-but anon, balance *between* gamelines was never a concern in WoD. More than that, iirc several devs explicitly said it was something they explicitly shit at.

And to be sincere, that's more than ok in my book

>>43745655
>Most games don't let you start with your super moves.
But why should SOME games not let you do it? it's not like super moves are bad per se.

>>43745665
In the same way that Embodiment of the Firstborn doesn't require you to be a werewolf? And Tactical Shifting doesn't require it either, I suppose. It's not in the prerequisites so I guess anything goes? When a style specifically mentions werewolf mechanics and is in a section designated "Werewolf (Fighting) Merits, I tend to use common sense"

>>43745655
>Powers should be measured in terms of balance within their gameline. Don't compare werewolves to vampires.

Why not in a gameline made with specific intent to crossover? I wasn't comparing werewolves to vampires, I was comparing both to Beast because Beast is made with crossover in mind and even intended.

>>43745956
Oh, I thought you were comparing Werewolf stuff for some reason.
Carry on. But I will say that Beasts can still do different things than Vampires et al and should be able to do different things. Their problems are all still extensions of "solving too many problems".

Beast also has the problem that the theme of "teaching a lesson" isn't enforced mechanically at all. In fact the mechanics of the game reward you for doing bad things. No amount of "you're teaching ~lessons~" matters when you're literally rewarded for murder; by not getting that extra bit of Satiety roll for murdering someone you're penalizing yourself by having survivors. This is also in some ways a balance issue, but it's more an issue of ludonarrative dissonance. Mechanics that go against the narrative.

>>43745880
Super moves are bad because starting out at 100% is bad. It creates nowhere to go. If you have a power that's "Solve any one problem your character is having", what point is there to do anything? You can solve all your problems. It's at least a little different when you can EARN that ability, and it comes as a capstone near the intended end of a game.

>>43745655
>Powers should be measured in terms of balance within their gameline. Don't compare werewolves to vampires.

Now, I am generally in the camp of crossover balance being a secondary concern, however, suspension of disbelief must be considered.

I think Rose herself said that the basic assumption is that in the WoD "the things that go bump in the night occasionally bump into each other... usually blind".

That concept would not work if one kind of supernatural was so outperformed by another that they would not be a credible threat.

Think about when Mage books (Free Council and Seers of the Throne come to mind) talk about how tricky it is to deal with entrenched vampire power structures. Now imagine vampires did not have plenty of means of social and mental control (the Vinculum the one they have all in common). The idea of any half-canny Mastigos having trouble uprooting a vampire conspiracy would seem ludicrous.

Such things must be kept in mind if there is supposed to be any support of crossover and somewhat believable world for all of these critters.

>>43746081
>Super moves are bad because starting out at 100% is bad. It creates nowhere to go.
I consider this a false assumption. No power can solve everything, and there is always room for improvement. It's only bad if you're playing pre-made modules that in all games tend to forget that there are characters able to solve their plot hooks without noticing.

Capable characters are not bad.

>>43746108
What I mean is that you can't compare "Insight Gifts do this, Auspex does that". Werewolves don't have the option to get Auspex, and Vampires don't have the option to get Insight.

For the most part, everything IS a credible threat, though mostly for social reasons.

>>43746177
No power can solve everything, but there are certain powers that can solve many things. Capable characters aren't the problem, omnicompetent ones are.

A character who can punch really hard isn't as much a problem as a character who can mind control someone into killing all their allies and signing over any possessions.

>>43746177
Nobody said that capable characters are bad, but there is a difference between "capable" and effortlessly solving any problem.

Look how Heroes are often not even a serious danger to a Beast. The main antagonists are often not a threat!

Now, that would be okay if the game cared much about raising such question of whether you should use lethal force on them to begin with. The challenge would be in finding non-violent solutions, but Beasts have very little incentive to do so and Heroes are not written particularly redeemable.

As an aside, I find that a lot of the merits are more interesting than powers. Sounds of the City and Strings of the Heart are really interesting because they aid in problem solving as opposed to solving the problems directly.

>>43746314

I'd agree! While I think that 2e suffers from a bit of Merit tree bloat, there's been some fantastic Merits in WoD.

>>43735982
Mmm... i remember one of my CtL characters, who was working as a stripclub dancer. Surprisingly, that place was also perfect for secret meetings. Just ask for a private dance.
Also, it was still better than what some NPC changelings had, like that one chitinous guy who lived in an abandoned basement.

Then there was a Mage, who also had an antiquarian shop. Not very original, but still.

>>43746309
But MOST Heroes shouldn't be a vital threat. They are antagonists, yes, but they vary wildly in their competence. Each one should only be a reminder that at some point in the future a really competent Hero will arise and slay you. Until then, Beast very obviously has this apex predator thing going on.

(not saying the game is especially good, I haven't read up on it enough)

>>43746270
So, what powers are we talking about? Which ones are "I solve everything, the other players may as well stay at home"? (not saying there aren't any, I'm just confused how everybody was talking about one power and suddenly it's about something else)

>>43746362
In comparison with 1e's extremely useless merits, I think 2e is a lot leaner

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I'm having trouble coming up for a Changeling character for a solo game.
Then I remembered this: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/hunter-the-vigil/344770-repost-revild-s-hotel-mascaron

Now I'm having idea of a changeling with multiple personalities that spring through specific moments or to specific situations, each one changing the appearance of the character through small details.
Thoughts? Appropriate seeming and kiths? I'm thinking of going as elemental and it's the elements that might change.

>>43746743
Changing elements isn't something for an Elemntal how I understand them, the element is the one thing that defines an Elemental. A Fairest is what springs to my mind, since they already have this instability shtick.

(Also multiple personalities is something that requires a great deal of sensibility to roleplay and is almost universally a shitty thing to do, but that's none of my business)

>>43746506

Please read up on the things that you talk about before you talk about them. Fluff presents a wildly varying degree of competency in Heroes, but as presented in game, Heroes just don't have enough to be a threat to any Beast, even a 0 XP one. Their trump card should be throwing weaknesses on Beasts, but in order to throw one on it, they have to land a successful hit on the Beast AND do some amount of damage. Beasts have more than enough power on their own to wipe the floor with a Hero before they can even touch them, and that's the big problem.

>>43746362
I definitely agree with >>43746635
I think that for the most part the 2e Merits are a lot better in terms of giving options that allow you to solve problems.

>>43746506
Heroes are meant to be a threat. The fluff acts like they're something a Beast should be afraid of.

>So, what powers are we talking about?
Well, I already pointed out how Knockout Punch can solve just about any short term problem, as well as some long term ones. Got someone giving you trouble? Punch them and they're out. Then kill them before they wake up. It says they wake up if you try to attack them, but it's not like they auto wake or anything, so most of them are going to be dead if you choose to shoot them in the face. Even if they do wake up on the choice to attack them, you can just tie them up while they're out.

I don't know if it's still in Demon, but there was also the power to give people Soulless Condition (even if they don't have souls) and you could take another power to make it a plague of soullessness. At character creation.

My character was kind of a weird-o and I think that was because I never really understood just what exactly I was doing.

I was playing Changeling, a Southern Courtier who was a policeman who had an interest staying physically fit and painting. In his free time he spent a lot of time hiking out to random places and painting the scenery for practice.

>>43747437

That sounds like a pretty rad character to me.

>>43747736
Right but I don't think that I fully understood the Southern Court outlook on things; or just made a terrible courtier?

Like he was very passionate about his police work and protecting people which made everyone think that he should have joined the more warrior type court. This even showed up in the game when he was asked to defect. But no he stuck with it and ended up being the Vermillion King after he killed the corrupt ministers that were ruining the Southern Court.

>>43741896

You got the social justice part right, but missed the Warrior bit.

At its core SJW is Us vs Them.
In normal social groups spouting extreme views has people distancing themselves from you, or worse.
But online, in communities where SJWarrioring is a shared interest the echo chamber effect gets so loud that it starts to warp sanity.

>>43748270
why are these descriptions always so melodramatic

did they kill your dog?

>>43747857

I don't think "being OK with being a Changeling" automatically means that you don't want to protect people. I think it's fine when not every member of a court is totally in lock step with the court philosophy, myself.

>>43748270
Isn't that exactly what 4chan does?

>>43748343
Yes.

>>43748594

Yes.
But nobody in their right mind would wish for society at large to hold 4chan's views.
4chan is an asylum run by the inmates, and as /tg/ proves a lot of messed up people have some awesome ideas.

I guess if a social justice advocate had humility and openly talked about the many failings and shortcomings of what they espoused I would not call them SJWs.

>>43749032
>But nobody in their right mind would wish for society at large to hold 4chan's views.
>I guess if a social justice advocate had humility and openly talked about the many failings and shortcomings of what they espoused I would not call them SJWs.
You assume people are in their right minds.

>>43749032

>But nobody in their right mind would wish for society at large to hold 4chan's views.

Looks like someone doesn't know about the Neo-Reactionaries.

>>43749047
Not him, but there are so many wrong minds the only rational things is to try your best and hope some people occasionally slip into the right mind.

>>43749056
>Neo-Reactionaries
>The Dark Enlightenment, or neoreactionary movement, or just neoreaction (abbreviated NRx by proponents), is an anti-democratic, reactionary movement that broadly rejects egalitarianism and Whig historiography. The movement favors a return to older societal constructs and forms of government, including support for monarchism,[1] religion, and traditional gender roles, coupled with a libertarian or otherwise right-wing or conservative approach to economics.[1] Some critics have labeled the movement as "neo-fascist".[2]
What.

Vampire Covenant or Changeling Court?

>>43749086
whynotboth.mp4

>>43742743
>>43743067
>>43742538

Social Justice Warrior was a term originally created by activists to refer to people who got self righteous about social issues, but didn't do anything but complain and criticize people for not doing enough.

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>>43750177
Pretty sure the term for that is slacktivist. Also, how about this, we talk about something World of Darkness related as opposed to stupid bullshit?

For instance I'm already about halfway through Jessica Jones, and I'm loving it. It feels like how a World of Darkness mortals+ game really should go. Someone who's basically just got a few dots of what amounts to Vigor and Resilience against someone with really top tier mind control.

Kilgrave also shows off how you can have a character use mind control "fairly" and still be a threat, even if they aren't directly affecting the PCs (although telling the chefs to slice each other's faces off only works if the PCs have a modicum of moral standing).

>>43750258
Yeah I woke up and forgot to refresh the page.

>>43750347
I honestly can't tell if this is a joke or not. Please let it be a joke.

>>43750258

I have yet to watch it myself, but I've always felt like a good example of a good Mortals game is actually stuff like Kolchak the Night Stalker and the original run of Eerie, Indiana. The more grounded episodes of The Twilight Zone also count to me.

>>43750660
I've long thought about doing a WoD game based on a more adult concept of the first two seasons of the show So Weird. Traveling band, dealing with the supernatural in places they go, with one character knowing more about it than others.

>>43744586
God I want to put something like this together for my next game, but Deb alone doesn't provide enough content for a whole campaign.

Anything similar we can liberate for our games?

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So I'm glancing at New Wave Requiem on my shelf, and wondering what you can distil a decade down to for the purposes of gaming. How can you capture the 80's in just a couple of bullet points to build around? What defined the 90's? Anyone able to help us younger gamers get some period accuracy even in the stylized world of darkness?

I'm starting to think none of these books are ever fucking coming out

>>43751389

New Wave Requiem and Mage Noir aren't historical settings. They say this themselves - they're a look at the cinematic decade, how you make a movie or comic or chronicle /feel/ 80s.

Fuck accuracy. Hotline Miami is the best example of a New Wave Requiem game.

>>43749692
How would that even work?

>>43751399

I just want Dark Eras and Thousand Years of Night. Nothing else matters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eul2edlLCBQ
I don't know why, but Peter Gabriel stuff always reminded me of the nWoD, in the case of Shock The Monkey, I was reminded of Demon.

>>43751462
Of course man, I could have gotten my point across better. I mean, what makes up the essence of a decade, that can be used as the basis for a game setting. I love a lot of old 80's stuff, but know it's mostly grossly exaggerated pop culture that I enjoy. I've got no idea how to approach that for the 90's though, and most of what I look at in the 80's is NEON with cops and kung fu fights with a synth soundtrack.

>>43751470
I need 1000 Years of Night like I need air to breath. It's the book I've been most excited about since it was announced forever ago.

>>43751866

It feels like it's been two years since the book was announced.

Oh god please don't let it actually have been two years.

>>43753297
If he dress like that on the laboratory, what does he dress to go to the opera?

>>43753385
You misunderstand. Creating heresies against life and the cosmos is how he enjoys his post-opera time.

>>43751389
Grunge, flannel shirts and the gulf war with a smattering of George Buss.

So, I've got a hunter game I'm running in a few hours here and I'm kinda running low on ideas, I've got a big 'ol overarching plot with god-machine and demon shenanigans but 've been giving the party side stuff to do(more monster of the week sorta stuff) and I wanna include beasties off the regular roster, but my creativity or lack there of is killing me, any recommendations you guys could lobby?

>>43751545
Hmm. There's a show called The 80's that was on NatGeo; here's their summary of the show's goals for the 80's.

The ‘80s is not about nostalgia; it is about a decade of people, decisions and inventions that changed our future, told from the perspective of unknowing history makers who lived these iconic moments. It was 10 years of nonstop glamour, unchecked excess, ruthless ambition and explosive technological innovation that combined to produce the historic changes and global events that made us who and what we are today.

The fingerprints of the decade best known for Pac-Man and the personal computer are everywhere in our daily lives: The first launch of NASA’s Space Shuttle triggered a technological explosion in global communications that now makes our world-wide love affair with smartphones and the Internet possible; when Madonna rolled around on stage in a wedding dress at a music awards show, it sent shock waves through a celebrity-hungry world that can’t get enough of “Gangnam Style” and Lady Gaga today.

Take that and add some specific bullet points of 'pop culture' things that are common 80's tropes.

>>43753928
As for the 90's, it's really long BUT you could go through and distill this to the points you want to emphasize:
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/the-90s-the-last-great-decade/interactives/what-did-the-1990s-mean/

>>43751389
Read Poppy Z Brite. Those stories just ooze the 90s.

>>43753897
Use a revenant.

>>43753897

Might not be super off the beaten path, but why not give them a spirit to fight?

>>43755938
That's what I'm thinking of, especially given that one of my players disappeared for the day and I am suddenly having to scrap my earlier plans to send them after a promethean.

>>43750772
>>43750660
>Eerie, Indiana
>So Weird
Wow, nostalgia.

>>43751389
Just look at any photos of Canada.

Hell, these Justin Beiber music video are the 90s
https://youtu.be/fRh_vgS2dFE
https://youtu.be/3y3a2MRoMnI

Why are these people wearing these outfits?

>>43753897
Fae that does the classic 'let's play a game'. He has something they want (knowledge, a MacGuffin, etc.) and will give it to them if they complete three tasks. If they fail he gets their souls, and of course to be fair he'll hold onto their souls in trust until they succumb or are able to succeed. You get to actually play with the Soulless Condition while your hunters try to complete the seemingly impossible tasks (think Hercules Twelve Labours; kill this, tame that, endure this) or try and find a way to get their souls back from the Fae through trickery or a fight.

>>43735982

Is it ok to bounce an idea for a potential VtM LARP character off you guys?

It involves intentional masquerade breaches, a gay Kindred sire, and Howard County, MD.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/8441813.stm

Uganda has an anti-human sacrifice task force. What do you think their compact benefits would be?

>>43758284
Stories like that make it hard to feel any compassion for Africa's troubles, holy shit.

>>43758335
Stories about Africa's troubles make it hard for you to have compassion for Africa's troubles?

>>43758370
Well, if you read the article, that is just greed at work. Famines, diseases, exploitation by other nations and shit are not (knowingly) self-caused.

>>43757601

Go ahead and post. You'll certainly hear an idea or two.

So mesmerize, the dominate ability that is required for all other dominate abilities to work, has no cost and is an instant action. Should the roll fail is there anything stopping a vamp from just spamming it over and over until it works? Because that seems kinda broken. Same thing with confidant in majesty.

>>43751389

The 90s, to me, always feels in media like the 80s afterbirth; the 80s and 90s are both intensely cynical, but the 80s is cynical in a way that says "Fuck you!" and goes to party and do coke off the back of hookers. The 90s grumbles, mutters "What's the point?", and buries its head to cry.

The statistical reality is that the 90s were a time of great improvement; there was some economic slow-down but the dotcom boom was beginning and crime was plummeting like a rock (the violent crime rate from 1985 to 2000 falls to less than a third). The Cold War ends, nuclear annihilation is no longer immanent, the War on Drugs shifts off of the United States' streets and falls onto the shoulders of Latin America... The US gets better, but it also becomes distressingly sober.

If you want the 90s feel, look at the early Simpsons, because that exemplifies it something fierce: Post-industrial America, with the majority of blue collar workers finally seeing that the future they'd been sold by their parents was a hopeless quagmire for which they gave up their dreams; the authorities are corrupt and comically inept, the church is faithless, and no savior is coming to rescue you. Your family isn't the collection of angels you hoped and, much as you love and would die for each and every one of them, they're also hellspawn who suck the life from you because their lives are as dreary as yours.

The 90s is the era of grunge and crass commercialism that nobody believes, where the future looks pointless and bleak, and the perfect idylls of the 1950s promised to the people now hitting their thirties and forties are vanishing as jobs move overseas at a break-neck pace.

Bleak. The 90s are bleak.

>>43758758

As a follow-up, a contrast to show this would be Full House. That sort of saccharine sitcom existed pretty much as wish fulfillment for the people who watched it, which sitcoms in many ways often have. Just as All In The Family and Star Trek appeared to confront the issues of their day (the former with racial and sexual problems, the latter with those plus scientific and political ones), Full House did the same for its generation.

Full House is a show about a single dad actually managing to live a decent and happy life at a time when divorce rates were reaching their highest historical point; someone who found happiness and joy in just plain mundane existence.

If the wish fulfillment fantasies of the 70s were technology saving the day, and racists/sexists learning a lesson, what does it say that Full House was the most popular sitcom of the late 80s and early 90s?

(I know, I know, Seinfeld and Friends appear on the scene and take over pretty quick. Not sure where in this schema they sit.)

>>43758704

Alrighty then.

Basic background is that my PC got Embraced by his sire because the guy mistook my PC for his dead gay lover. Instead of keeping quiet like he was supposed to, my PC admitted to his parents that he was a vampire. This sparked an unforeseen conflagration of sympathy that his mom went out of her way to make sure her son had enough blood packs to sustain himself and a night shift at the local Home Depot in Ellicott City, MD and that he had a place set up so he could live by himself.

He was then adopted (yes, you read that correctly) by an orphaned loli that turned out to be the child of a ghoul. She is his touchstone, as it were, to his human self. She is also adorable and likes Disney movies and baking cookies.

He's making enough money to get by, if only just. The local Camarilla don't exactly like him, but the Brujah Prince in charge sees no harm in letting my PC live, as long as the rules are followed once he leaves the County boundaries.

>>43759187
Whats some good grunge music I want to get into the 90 feel. Allso the 90 has the start of meth in the Midwest.

>>43758758
>The '90s
>Doesn't mention the crack epidemic

Millennial detected.

>>43759493
Anything by Nirvana, Pearl Jam or Soundgarden.

I was more an Alternative fan, though.

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>>43759672

>>43759672

That's actually another fun feature of the 80s and 90s: Moral panics, often tremendously ineffectual ones. The Satanic Panic was a creature of the 80s, the drug panic was one of the 90s.

Funnily, though, drug use dropped like a rock (ha) in the 90s. The peak of crack cocaine use was 1982. Hell, while double-checking that statistic, I found a scholarly article from 1990 actually writing about that exceptionally sharp decline, especially amongst young people.

>>43759988
That's a pretty skewed statistic, because it takes national use whereas usage and arrests for both possessing and distributing crack cocaine rose year over year in urban areas and especially among the African-American community until 1996.

>>43759672

Thought that started in the 80s

Can I just say, as a person whose only experience with nWoD was the Big 3, that I was absolutely blown away by how dark and great of a game that Changeling the Lost was? It's nothing like the Dreaming (thank God), and easily the bleakest WoD game I've read since Wraith. Has CtL 2e been confirmed as dead or on schedule? Is there any way to play this in 2e if it's the former?

>>43760426
>Has CtL 2e been confirmed as dead or on schedule?
No word on any of the 2e books in development.

>Is there any way to play this in 2e if it's the former?
There's been a few homebrews tried, but it's a very tough nut to crack especially with Contracts.

>>43759672
The 90s was the real start of meth, crack was losing pace.

>>43760463
>There's been a few homebrews tried, but it's a very tough nut to crack especially with Contracts.
I would imagine so. The game is incredibly enjoyable for me as it stands, but 2e has kinda spoiled me. I certainly hope that it does eventually get a 2e book after Mage; it's my understanding that CtL is far and away the most popular of the limited series, getting more books than it was supposed to as a result.

>>43760463
>There's been a few homebrews tried, but it's a very tough nut to crack especially with Contracts.
Most people are just using 2.5 rules that change a few things to be Conditions and use the 2e mechanics, but that's about it.

>>43760632
There's been some small previews of 2e ling released, but they're not entirely encouraging.

>>43760678
Not encouraging how? OPP really hit a homerun with this game, at least for me; I'd hate to see how they would manage to fuck that up if the previews already have people nervous.

>>43760717
They're changing a lot. Both kiths and Courts are a lot more modular and customized now.

>>43760426
>bleakest WoD game I've read
Read Promethean: The Created.
That'll set you straight.

>>43760807
>>43760717

This, and nobody cares about the Huntsmen. The general consensus appears to be "why are we putting the True Fae even further into the background?"

>>43760717
A lot of the themes have been refocused. All the Curses and Blessings of the Seemings are built around gaining or losing Clarity for certain actions. I know I hate that the Fairest are focused more on being ~Leaders~ as opposed to being the pretty people (who are also generic). I prefered the focus of them being mad, but David Hill wants the focus to be making them Sidhe 2.0.

Everything else frankly I like. The Seeming and Kith being detached from each other is great, and honestly that might make Fairest less necessary for me. I liked them as my favourite because they were the most plain (everything else is REALLY out there, and "is pretty" is a concept that fits most things) and fit the most character ideas, but their Kiths were always the worst.

I'm not sure about the way he was talking about doing Contracts, but they can't be any more useless than the original Contracts, so all in all I'm not hating Changeling 2e, even if other people are.

I think one thing people don't like is the Huntsmen, which is a Strix like antagonist for Changelings that act as the True Fae's agents in the mortal world. I can understand the arguments that it puts the True Fae even further from Changelings as an antagonist, but... frankly I like that. True Fae don't really WORK as an antagonist because they're basically super powerful almighty unstoppable aspects of creation mixed with stalker exes. People feel like this guy >>43760837 though.

>>43760824
>Bleak
>Only game with a happy ending, as well as Pinocchio style themes of learning what it means to people
Promethean is not bleak, and I'm infamous for having a really bleak (and sexualized) Promethean character from a year long chronicle.

>>43759187

First part's fine, your setting's far enough from the Jyhad hotspots so that something like that can be tolerated. This makes the third part fine, too. Second part's iffy. Kids in vampire stories often come off as cliche, and personally unless I knew that player very well, I'd consider it a yellow flag at best.

There's also a question: why would a little girl take in this character when his parents are very aware of his nature as Kindred?

>>43758742
>Should the roll fail is there anything stopping a vamp from just spamming it over and over until it works?
Yes. Unless your target is immobilized or got extremely low mental stats this should trigger an - if only instinctively-motivated - Fight/Flight response as it realizes there's something very, VERY wrong going on.

>>43758742
>>43760959
>Guy commands you to do something
>You don't do it
Why would you continue looking in his eyes or being in his presence?

>>43760807
>>43760837
>>43760882
But surely, if OPP hears how much the fans don't like these changes, they'll do something about it?

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>>43761026
Enjoy your copy of Beast, anon.

>>43761026
>But surely, if OPP hears how much the fans don't like these changes, they'll do something about it?
Beast showed us how much they're willing to change things. Which isn't much, making the game pointless and lame rather than those plus seriously crybaby.

>>43760882

>True Fae don't really WORK as an antagonist because they're basically super powerful almighty unstoppable aspects of creation mixed with stalker exes.

But that's why they're good antagonists. Not every antagonist needs to be defeated by campaign's end. The best threats for Changeling tend to be indirect, threats to life as opposed to threats to limb.

Either way, if you want a more direct enemy, we've got those already. We have Bridge Burners, Loyalists, and Privateers. There's nothing a Huntsman can do that they don't already do, at least from the previews.

>>43761230
True Fae don't really work as antagonists at all. They threaten life as well as limb, and aren't really something that should reasonably be stopped.

I mean, I'd point to Jessica Jones as how you could have a True Fae, but realistically there's no reason for a True Fae to even care about any one individual Changeling.

>>43761325
>realistically

>>43761325
It's not that they care at all, some of them are just that petty and/or bored that they'll go out of their way to ruin some changeling's life even after his freedom. Plus, like >>43761230 said, Changeling already has enough non-omnipotent enemies to challenge without adding a redundant and unwanted addition to the bunch.

>>43760882
I like changeling like I like mage, it is fun, cool, and lets you do all sorts of new things but...

Needs cleaning up. There are a shit ton of 'little bonuses' you need to keep track of, things that grant +1 all over the place that make me feel like I'm playing dnd 3.5 with my minmaxing buddies from high school going "were is that +1 coming from?" and them going "I can't remember, but its in the book, check the appendix."

Pledges need work to be quick and dirty to make. Let me be clear, I LOVE pledges. LOVE LOVE LOVE them. Making deals with otherworldly things is almost always cool. I don't love needed to crack open the book to figure out how to set the scales of a pledge right. They should steal a lot from how demons do pacts, let them be quick and dirty, and for the love of god, put a stronger limit on the number of vows(vows have little to no cost, and you can have 4-13 of them, in contrast, every other kind of deal is cooler and more of a drama engine but you will never see them, because they have enough room for 3 more god damn vows.)

I want my changeling players to be able to put themselves in bad situations by making pledges in the name of the horrible monster that wants to imprison them, or their own true name. Rather then going, 'shit man I got 3 more pledges I can do before anything gets serious'(in fairness, not being able to easily raise Wyrd at the start will help with this).

Also contracts need work. They are kind of meh.

When Dave B is finished with mage, kidnap him and have him help changeling along.

>>43760904

Huh. Maybe he's trying not to see himself as a mooch by finding his own place and living on his own, even with help from his parents? Or maybe he doesn't want to be tempted into making Mom and Dad a late night snack?

And maybe because he needs some form of responsibility to keep him on level ground. And, because the kid is the child of a ghoul, maybe she sees him as her master.

I, honestly, haven't thought this all the way through yet. The feedback you're giving me is helping me get a better grip on what I want out of this character.

Nothing about what we've read from CtL 2e seems to suggest you can't use the traditional antagonists the way they were used before. It's like WtF 2e, you don't even have to use the Idigam, you can fight Pure and Hosts till your hearts content and never sniff at big ass evil spirits. Same with VtR 2e, you could play the game with no Strix ever appearing and nothing mechanically is lost.

So, really, why complain about Huntsmen when they're essentially an optional addition to the game which, I assume, really only exist because they're trying to stick to the theme of having a featured antagonist with every new corebook.

>>43761325

Of course you'd point to Jessica Jones, and I'm sure you've got a homebrew all lined up to post based on it in a couple of days.

Again, you don't need antagonists that you have to beat up. It's OK to have antagonists that linger, that are as much force as they are figure. True Fae have personal investments in Changelings because they might see them as an extension of themselves, or as property, or even as something precious, like losing a favorite toy.

Can you misuse a True Fae? Sure. But that doesn't mean we automatically need to de-emphasize their presence, especially since 2e Changeling's emphasizing being the survivor.

And again, this does not change the question: What can I do with a Huntsman, that I cannot do with a Loyalist, a Privateer, or even a Bridge-Burner?

>>43761403
>When Dave B is finished with mage, kidnap him and have him help changeling along.

DaveB has Mage supplements to develop and write. He'll never be "finished." Besides, he's also developing Deviant.

You'll just have to rely on DavidH for all your Changeling needs.

I'm far more concerned that what effect the Paradox acquisition of WW and the new "One World of Darkness" will have on all the nWOD game lines.

>>43761474
>What can I do with a Huntsman, that I cannot do with a Loyalist, a Privateer, or even a Bridge-Burner?
We don't know, that hasn't been revealed yet but it's been hinted they have more ways of finding you or are tied to your time in Arcadia that you 'left behind' that they can attack you with (dreams, secrets, etc.).

>>43761408
Uhh, as someone who hasn't seen any of these previews, can I jump in and ask what exactly Huntsmen are? I sorta get the impression of Beast's Heroes from the name, or at least Gaston or the Woodsman of Little Red Riding Hood, but that probably isn't right.

>>43761493

See, that's all I need. As long as I had something to go on, I'll be fine with it. It's just frustrating to see previews for the Court system (which I actually dig) and yet know nothing about something that's going to take thousands of words aside from the very basics.

>>43761474
>You don't need antagonists that you have to beat up
I feel like you're missing the point.
A thunderstorm gets what it wants. You don't really have a say in that. True Fae pretty much can't be used right if you ever have them in the game at all. They're not meant to be a threat you deal with, they're a trauma that you overcome.

And, no, 2e hasn't deemphasized that you're a survivor. It's emphasized recovery and healing, as opposed to the five stages of grief.

>>43761502
Loyalists, but not Changelings.

>>43761551
>Loyalists
Not really, they're cast more as sort of upgraded Hobs in that they're part of Arcadia but can exist outside of the Hedge. In fact, the reason they can is because they've internalized some aspect of the person they're hunting to give them an anchor into our reality.

>>43761551
...weren't mortal agents of the True Fae already a thing?

So these just have more gifts from them?

>>43761502
A mid-tier between changelings and true fae sort of.

I dunno none of the 2E previews really gave a hint at what Huntsmen are...or much of anything besides "fucking up the court system just to be different."

>>43761632
"We need an out of context enemy like the strix or idigam."

"lets make super powerful goblin-dream-things that work for keepers."

"PRINT IT"

>>43761701
>or much of anything besides "fucking up the court system just to be different."
They didn't fuck anything up. They just aren't going to go with the "Seasonal Courts are Default" And they didn't really do it "just to be different" (we're up to like seven or eight Courts in Changeling anyway), they did it for page count.

>>43761723
It's just a thing where if you want to do "you're getting chased down and brought back to Arcadia" that it's more reasonable for you to be able to stop it.

>>43761781
Removing the social axis to the back of the book is a bad idea.

If you really, really, really need kiths to be separate instead of just using your imagination and making a new kith for your seeming, have them replace noble titles as a z-axis.

Courts were the cornerstone of the game's freehold system, they governed how you harvested glamour, they had a huge impact on the game that's been reduced to a city level "make your own!" mechanic, because I guess what changeling really needed was to have courts and freeholds be fucking redundant.

And the only reason we were given for this massive, fundamental change in the game's structure is "people liked making their own courts". Which, fine. I think a group of themes as broad as the four seasons is PLENTY to work with but fine, none of this means that every court in every city needs to be mechanically different, that is what "slight differences in fluff" are FOR.

>It's just a thing where if you want to do "you're getting chased down and brought back to Arcadia" that it's more reasonable for you to be able to stop it.

Mortal minions, goblins, dreaming beasts, the FOUR factions of willing-to-work-with-the-true-fae changelings all tell me that Huntsmen sure as hell BETTER be more than that, or they're a waste of space.

>>43761989
>Removing the social axis to the back of the book is a bad idea.
It's not removed. It's there, it's just that you get to decide what it looks like as opposed to being told what it looks like.

>If you really, really, really need kiths to be separate instead of just using your imagination and making a new kith for your seeming, have them replace noble titles as a z-axis.
What? First off, they separated Kiths from Seeming because it turns out most people would rather they did it that way, and in online games the two versions of the merit that gave you a new Kith were really common.

>Courts were the cornerstone of the game's freehold system
They really weren't.
>I guess what changeling really needed was to have courts and freeholds be fucking redundant.
What is being made redundant? I feel like you've kept up with none of the actual spoilers, heard other people talk, thought what they said was true (or just misunderstood them) and then started getting INCREDIBLY upset, all without actually understanding what you're complaining about.

>I think a group of themes as broad as the four seasons is PLENTY to work with but fine, none of this means that every court in every city needs to be mechanically different, that is what "slight differences in fluff" are FOR.
Again, Changeling has more groups than any other group. Boiling that down to "just what was in the corebook last time" doesn't work for the second editions. They cut it down to a "design your own courts" section because that's all you NEED. Changeling Courts have never been as global as the Orders (of which there are 6) or the Covenants (of which there are 7, maybe 9 if you count groups like the Brides of Dracula). Instead they're very much a thing that's different in many parts of the world.

Take a guess at how many Courts there are. Because, no, "the four seasons" are not broad enough. They're also very Americentric/Eurocentric.

>>43760882
>Promethean is not bleak,

The happy ending you can hope for being "become normal" is still pretty bleak.

I think someone noted once that Changeling the Lost is about people traumatized by abuse they escape and struggle to come to terms with, but Promethean the Created is about people who are abused by the world and "deserve it," or bring it on themselves by just existing, until they conform.

And Beast is being the abuser, a mirror image of Promethean with some of the dubious rationalizations.

>>43762144

Aspel, have you considered that maybe people would like you more if you weren't so condescending all the time? People can come away from the same information and the same previews with differing opinions. For the love of christ, at least try to approach your arguments in good faith. I'm not even opposed to the change in Kiths, Seemings and Courts, but holy shit dude.

Courts absolutely played a part in Freehold political structure. They were in every writeup of every city, and they were an integral part of the setting. The very foundation of Miami's 1e setting is "What if the court system went wrong?" This is a huge change from the political structure as presented in the last edition, and that's rightfully something people would be concerned about.

>Because, no, "the four seasons" are not broad enough. They're also very Americentric/Eurocentric.

You don't get to drop this and expect to not explain this, especially here. How are the use of the Four Seasons as Courts Americentric and Eurocentric?

>>43762471
>How are the use of the Four Seasons as Courts Americentric and Eurocentric?
Not him, but I'm gonna take a guess and say that it's mostly Europe and North America that experience significantly different seasons and place lots of cultural significance on them, whereas the rest of the world basically has either hot and cold seasons, or dry and rainy seasons.

>>43761406

Anyone else have feedback for me or can I put this idea to paper?

BTW, anyone know of any local Mind's Eye Theaters in the vicinity of Howard County, MD?

>>43762645

I dunno about the seasons part, but I could believe that there's different symbolism. In that case, however, wouldn't that be something that's more effectively covered at the table, rather than in the rules? As much as I'm OK with customization of Courts, and the preview seemed fine enough, the idea of yet another subsystem in a White Wolf game gives me chills by default.

I think that's why Changeling 2e's gotten such backlash compared to the other 2es. The changes aren't necessarily bad, it's just that most of them don't seem necessary aside from Kiths. I think the risk is worth taking, but I'm not going to think that the people who are skeptical are fools, either.

>>43762720

If the kid is a ghoul and sees your character as her master, what made her adopt him, as opposed to the other way around? Do his parents know about this?

As for Mind's Eye Stuff, try this: http://www.meetup.com/Maryland-Minds-Eye-Society/

>>43762802

The seasons part is absolutely true. Different parts of the planet experience different seasonal variations, depending on prevailing wind currents and closeness to the equator. Even in places with relatively temperate climates, the strength of the various seasons will vary dramatically. Greenland, for example, is going to have a very different conception of winter than, say, the Carolinas.

Near to the equator, you outright don't really get the four seasons. Miami, one of the example settings, averages twenty degrees in January, with only about ten degrees of fluctuation in temperature year-round on average. Compare that with where I live, and you can see up to fifty degrees of variation on an annual basis.

That's all Celsius, if you're uncertain.

Whole stretches of Africa have a dry season and a rainy season. Indian rainforests vacillate between monsoon and dry.

The four seasons are really, really specific to certain parts of the world and just plain do not exist on much of the planet.

>>43762645
Pretty much every region above the 30th parallel is going to experience 4 distinct seasons, so it's hardly fair to say its exclusive to the "western world".

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>>43750772

If you can handle anime I strongly suggest watching Requiem from the Darkness and Mononoke. Not 'Princess Mononoke' Just Mononoke.

Both use a similar narrative style but catered towards adult audiences.

>>43762802
I can see why people would be upset. Honestly, most of these 2e updates only really NEED to be brought up to the 2e mechanics, and perhaps making the splats somewhat more survivable than their 1e versions that were hilariously underpowered compared to their oWoD counterparts. I always thought that the extraneous stuff added like Strix and Idigams were just tacked on because CCP were being needlessly difficult in approving new WoD stuff.

>>43763206
The idigam weren't tacked on. They were there to begin with. The strix though, their promotion into a big deal was rather meh.

>>43763227

I like the Strix, and I like their write up a whole lot, but a part of me would have liked to have seen VII take that spot. Idigam absolutely needed to be in the Werewolf book, they're a big deal but they've been so loosely defined. The Pure are easy enough to get.

>>43742538
Frankenmine is that you?

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>>43762471
>How are the use of the Four Seasons as Courts Americentric and Eurocentric?
Yes I do. There's even a section of it in one of the Changeling books, they mention Wet Season and Dry Season and things like that. Changeling itself goes into how Seasons as a concept aren't exactly universal.

I'm being "condescending" because people keep saying things like this:
>Courts absolutely played a part in Freehold political structure.
Courts still exist. They aren't going away. They just aren't having Seasonal Courts as the default, which is good, because I'd rather have rules for building some of the other, alternate Court versions instead of the rather bland Four Seasons model. Also, the Seasonal Courts had little to do with Freehold structure.

>They were in every writeup of every city, and they were an integral part of the setting.
As far as I'm aware, there was only one city write up, and as you point out, Miami's is basically "the court system broken".

>This is a huge change from the political structure as presented in the last edition, and that's rightfully something people would be concerned about.
No, it isn't. And that's why it doesn't make sense that anyone would be concerned. There ISN'T A CHANGE. The "Change" is entirely "Seasonal Courts are not the default, every city is different". If you want the Seasonal Courts, you can make them.

>>43763206
>Honestly, most of these 2e updates only really NEED to be brought up to the 2e mechanics
That's not what the second editions are all about. It's about making comprehensive second editions. That means tightening up the theme and refocusing things into something that makes more sense. It's not meant to be a simple "here's the new rules". Not even the core stuff has just that.

>>43762802
All the backlash I've seen has been here, and most of it amounts to stuff like people complaining they changed the courts or kiths. Changes that aren't really changes, and certainly not "they got rid of what I liked".

So, a general question to /wodg/: What does a Mage Caucus look like? I mean, how do you think the meetings actually go? How do most Mage interactions go?

I have a lot of trouble just picturing how Mages interact when they meet one another. I know context is king and all, but... I struggle at it. I'm never sure where mysticism strays over into pretension. How do you figure Mages act/look when in groups?

>>43764227
I would imagine mostly like normal people, until there's a Consilium or Order meeting.
At which point the robes come out and everyone goes full "cult ritual".

>>43764253

See, that's the thing I've had trouble with: The whole "cult ritual" part. Once that happens, I tend to feel the need to roll my eyes.

As I think on it, though, I'm starting to find useful inspiration in the mafia. Those guys have a lot of occult ritual to them, or at least they used to, and I don't think anyone would call them pretentious for it.

>>43764253
https://youtu.be/dSpOjj4YD8c

>>43764083

The point isn't that courts are going away, the point is that courts at the center of Freehold politics, as a universal factor, is gone, and people will not like that. That's a fair thing to not be OK with, especially if you're setting up a LARP game or a wider scale political game, something that could feasibly happen with the way the Hedge works. Miami being a broken setting wouldn't be as important if the core book didn't stress the Seasonal Courts as a universal standard.

>The "Change" is entirely "Seasonal Courts are not the default, every city is different"

For many people, who did not play CtL with the other alternate courts, that is a very big change. You really can't see how that changes the playstyle of the game in anyway? Sure, you can still play the Seasonal Courts if you wish, but considering that is the case, why would they bother with a customized court system at all? Wouldn't that, to them, just seem like a loss of words that could be used to better flesh out the Seasonal Courts?

Just because you can keep the old ways of doing things doesn't mean that nothing's changed. That's why you're being condescending. Your arguments boil down to "well I like this, so I don't see why you don't and therefore I'm going to talk down to you." Don't do that if you want to actually have a conversation, especially since you're the one who wants to keep making these threads and directing thread topics.

In addition, a second edition doesn't have to mean "change major details of the game". Many games are able to have minor changes from edition to edition, despite D&D actually being four and a half different games over its lifetime. It's pretty fair for people to ask for minor changes to Changeling, since the only real outright issues of the first editions were janky Contracts, Talecrafting, and Pledgecrafting being a bit of a mess. It's a game that captured lighting in a bottle and people are very passionate about it.

>>43764083
I can understand the rationale behind what it is they're trying to accomplish with the court creation system, I do. It's just, for me, seeing that on paper instead of the Season Courts seems supremely bland and uninspiring to read: "You want a Court? Here are the rules, go do it yourself." This may sound petty of me, but I enjoy WoD primarily for the fluff they present; I wanna feel immersed into the setting, which, for me, is ruined when I'm suddenly being given the systematic process for how to create my own Special Snowflake Court instead. At that point, I feel like I'm playing some ad lib rpg.

In my opinion, they should've gone the opposite approach and doubled down to make Seasons the -only- kind of Court; because let's be honest here, how many people ACTUALLY used any other kind of Court? I mean, hell, why not just throw the Covenants, Tribes, etc out the window too? Just write up creation systems for them too! "Here are the [insert faction here] creation rules. Oh, what's that? You already liked Lancea Sancta or Blood Talons in the first place? That's fine, just go ahead and rebuild it from scratch."

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>CtL 41
>When dealing with all but the most serious crimes against mortals, the most common answer is for various members of the freehold to use various Contracts to deflect suspicion from the criminal

What Contracts would changelings use for a coverup?

The only memory erasure Contract I saw was a Goblin Contract that could remove 3 hours of memory in Rites of Spring.

>>43761403
>They should steal a lot from how demons do pacts, let them be quick and dirty, and for the love of god, put a stronger limit on the number of vows(vows have little to no cost, and you can have 4-13 of them, in contrast, every other kind of deal is cooler and more of a drama engine but you will never see them, because they have enough room for 3 more god damn vows.)
So don't copy the lack of limit on demon pacts then.

What is the thing that prevents a demon from being generous and promiscuous with his pacts--every suspiciously suddenly successful and beautiful mortal is a clue of possible demonic activity that could lead back to the demon?

There's no limit on the number of mortal benefits, and benefiting the mortal more doesn't take anything from the demon, does it?

>>43762894

>>43762720 here. Like I said, I really didn't think my character's background through all the way. Maybe she's compelled by her ghoulish blood to seek a master, *ANY* master, regardless of their clan or sect?

And maybe my PC's parents dote on her, finding her absolutely darling, if a bit creepy and off-putting?

Also debating on adding another dependent just to spice things up. Maybe he has a student teacher for a roommate and she's starting to get slightly suspicious of his activities because he's acting kinda weird...

>>43764759
>the point is that courts at the center of Freehold politics, as a universal factor, is gone
That's simply untrue. The SEASONAL Courts are gone. That's it. Nothing else. That's why the Court Creation system? Is called Freehold Creation.

It's not changing the playstyle of the game to remove Seasonal Courts as the default, because Seasonal Courts were never as omnipresent and global as the Covenants or Orders or Tribes. They were always Your City. People who played CtL with the Seasonal Courts and only the Seasonal Courts are not missing out because they can still play with the Seasonal Courts. I'm pretty sure it's been said that the Seasonal Courts still show up in at least one of the example cities.

>Your arguments boil down to "well I like this, so I don't see why you don't and therefore I'm going to talk down to you."
My argument is "you're seeing a problem that doesn't exist". You keep saying that Courts no longer matter, but that's not true. You keep saying that Courts have changed, and not even THAT is true. Saying "the corebook did this" doesn't mean anything because this isn't the corebook, this is a new edition. An edition after we've had a full twelve Courts fleshed out and several other courts suggested or implied. Four default "This is how the world is" courts don't really work.

>>43764782
Honestly, there's no better way for them to do it. Changeling has had twelve Courts by now, and a lot of people have found the original four were too generic. They were never really fleshed out as well as the Covenants or Orders. Changeling is the only one where that actually works because Courts have never really been a default.

>let's be honest here, how many people ACTUALLY used any other kind of Court?
Several. Just up thread there's someone talking about their Southerner, and I've seen the alternate courts--and made up courts--used in online games, which I don't doubt are used for market research, especially since I know the devs play on MUSHes.

>>43764873
Probably Contracts that are similar to all that Autumn Court magic they talk about but there isn't any actual evidence of.

>>43765008

I wish this were just a joke. That aspect of the Autumn Court really never did get filled in, and that bugged me endlessly.

Is there a version of Changeling the Lost PDF where it includes text and not just images, so you can Ctrl-F its contents?

>>43766012
Mine works just fine with ctrl-f, don't remember where i got it from though.

>>43766012
Is here a reason why you can't just ctrl+f the regular pdf?

>>43766320
Because his is apparently a bunch of scanned images, rather than text.

>>43764978
>That's simply untrue. The SEASONAL Courts are gone. That's it. Nothing else. That's why the Court Creation system? Is called Freehold Creation.

Umm. No. They are going to be in the Freehold Creation system. They are going to be one of the prominent examples.. They are most certainly not gone.

That said, I'm happy to not have to jump through a lot of hoops to make a setting with seelie/unseelie courts.

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>>43766800
How embarrasing.

>>43767244
I suppose I misspoke. I meant "gone as the default".

Which is what the entire rest of that post and all the other posts were about, ffs

>>43767314
Yeah. I realized that as soon as I had posted. Immediate reaction to the first sentence. When I actually read the rest of the post, I realized you were you, and not the guy you were arguing with.

>>43767298
https://kat.cr/world-of-darkness-new-world-collection-t10511453.html
This, the only torrent that could be found that contained Demon The Descent, has a shitty scanned CTL core book.

Only a changeling exclusive torrent has the proper, clean PDF with an index and everything.
https://kat.cr/changeling-the-lost-rpg-complete-t3954456.html

>>43743254
Who the fuck is Branford? Where did that name come from?

>>43767560

WoD General Regulars:

Aspel: Always has a homebrew, always finds a way to bring their latest media obsession into the WoD. Makes the threads and can't stop arguing with people, Pretends they know more than they actually do and ends up having to backtrack. Thick as a brick. Goes by Rory in some /soc/ thread.

Branford: Usually posts on RPGnet. They're a lawyer with Liberal AND Conservative friends, thank you, and they really want you to know that it makes them an authority. Has a seriously problem with identity politics but ironically has their ass firmly up respectability politics and seems blissfully unaware of it. Consistently triggered by a sidebar in Mortal Remains. Almost certainly argues with Aspel about it. Also cannot stop arguing.

Carmila: Doesn't seem to actually know what Personal Horror is. Really likes playing mafia games in Vampire. Thick as a brick.

Atamajakki: Really likes Mummy and Wraith. Claims to not post in months but every so often makes the same post about being all alone in their love for their things. Drive-by poster.

Hentai Larp-Chan: Really into bikers, hentai, and LARP. Awful pictures with bad artifacts. Probably hasn't actually posted in the past two years or whoever the fuck long it's been, but remains a General Boogieman.

WoD Larpfag: Knowledgable, helpful. Pretty cool.

Lowercase Poster: Posts in lowercase. Pretty drive-by. Posts are mostly summed up as "calm the fuck down".

DaveB, DavidH, Chris Allen, AmyV: Freelancers and developers. In most cases, a light at the end of the dark tunnel of yet another derail. IanW would be here but hopefully he's in the Trinity mines, making cool things.

There's some others I'm missing, but instead of trying to remember them, I'm going to go drink heavily and re-consider all my life choices.

So, I've been thinking: The Cacophany as it exists in Vampire is a great thing, and honestly feels like something all supernaturals would have, save perhaps for Changelings (who lack the obsessive need for secrecy so many other supernaturals have). Of any, though, the concept of informal communications via diverse methods feels more like a thing that the Awakened would have need of; needing as they do to communicate with a diverse array of Sleeper/Sleepwalker cults, fellow Mages, and possibly other supernaturals. They crave secrecy, so most common lines of communication aren't really going to be available to them. It makes sense to communicate in poorly xeroxed pamphlets with coded messages, bulletin boards at local coffee shops, graffiti, hobo signs, etc.

Plus, this stuff is great for giving Sleeper conspiracy theorists and Hunters fodder to go "Okay, something odd's going on here", but only if they know the signs to look for.

What sort of messages do you think Mages put out into their grapevine as wizardly gossip?

>>43767760
I don't think anyone but me and the freelancers are even "regulars". I don't really feel like this is the person I've been arguing with (though maybe they are), and I wouldn't even say your cliff notes of me is accurate, but I like the sound of "always". It makes me sound productive.

>Claims to not post in months but every so often makes the same post about being all alone in their love for their things.
Tons of people say that. They like feeling like they're the only sane man who likes a popular but not the most popular game.

>I'm going to go drink heavily and re-consider all my life choices.
Welcome to /wodg/, enjoy your stay.

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>>43767760
>RPGnet
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?757004-Warning-for-branford-Warning
>Annoying 4chan trolls and gamergaters (and associated ilk) is just a cherry on top of what is a delicious Mage pie. :)

>>43767840
>I don't think anyone but me and the freelancers are even "regulars"
That's the beauty of being Anonymous.

>>43767822

I wish I had the picture on me, but I remember reading about how one game announced its Consillium meetings in plain sight: gaudy flyers with clip art wizards would be slipped under doors, with comic sans lettering saying "Wizards! Wizards should come and see us!"

For safety reasons, no date and time were provided. That's always a method of hiding in plain sight that I liked.

I feel like Mages would be the type of people who use old flyers and landmarks to symbolize cabal territory. Perhaps the type of flyers by their borders determines the Rights that the cabal recognizes.

>>43767851
>Branford, you've been warned before about "Your attitude is alienating your ideological supporters" concern trolling. Really, stop doing that. Do not post in this thread again. This is a warning.
Oh wow.

>>43767822
>>43767861
Freecouncil has Magebook. Or was it Magespace? How old is that book?

>>43767861

I like it. A part of why I love this sort of thing is the hiding-in-plain-sight element that helps make a curious mortal who actually does get a glimpse behind the curtain seem mad when they connect the dots and see just how much of what they thought was innocuous background noise is really part of a grand conspiracy.

I like the idea of some crappy little supermarket newspaper containing hidden messages, written by the local Silver Ladder Caucus to direct the myriad cults that is their Cryptopoly; the thing's so multifaceted that every cult reads a different section and gets a different message, or may be directed to read the same section and extract the same message.

>>43767874

>Internet

Yeah, I know the Libertines have that, but that's honestly the least entertaining avenue to me, and one I figure few Mages are eager to use; internet connections can be traced, after all. When the only way to guarantee your internet safety is to make your firewall a spirit that takes the shape of a literal wall of fire, it stops seeming so convenient.

>>43767901

Not just the supermarket circulars. I bet you 10 to 1 that there's a Mage on staff at every free alt-newspaper, apartment registry catalog, and takeaway corporate magazine in the US, serving as a network of communication under prying eyes.

>>43767926
Mage Zines. This is the 90s.

>>43767954

Shit, yeah, that's the good stuff. Mini-grimoires in small press. Silver Ladder manifestos. Intentional gibberish left by Guardians. Totally swiping this.

>>43767926

There might, but for communication, you don't really want to go too broad; that attracts the eyes of the Mulders of the world. You want to keep it nice and local.

Though the word "takeaway" has me now thinking of Mage-run fish-and-chip shops.

>>43767954
>>43767990

I was never a part of the zine craze. I should look into it.

>>43768003

There's actually a pretty vibrant zine culture today, though it's mostly fandom based and lives on the internet. I always wondered what a WoD zine might look like.

>>43768003
>I was never a part of the zine craze. I should look into it.
Me either, but one of the game stores I go to has these little homemade zines that are just hand made books of printer paper bound with staples.

>>43768053
"Still nothing to report".

The /tg/ group on F-list tried making a digital zine. It got like one issue in before everyone realized no one cared about that stuff when they could just talk to the people in the channel. It was mostly stories and writing advice, I think.

There's probably enough WoD content that you could do a bunch of sample characters or cities or whatever, as well as Actual Plays. Maybe interviews with characters? A bit of art?

We could maybe try doing that...
It would give us something to do while we ̶ ̶d̶i̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶o̶l̶d̶ ̶a̶g̶e̶ wait for the next release.

>>43768107

I meant in setting, but there actually was a WoD Zine that existed for a bit. Darker Days podcast used to distribute it. I believe it was called Forbidden Lore or something like that.

I'm trying to think up Shadow Names for NPCs in my campaign, but I'm drawing a complete blank.
Does anyone have any tricks they use?

>>43768214

The ones I tend to see used are:

-Names from history
-Names from philosophy
-An element and a verb put together
-A Jewel or stone name
-A name from a religious text

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>>43742067
>>43742338
>Innocents were fine,

Except for the same number of dots meaning entirely different things?

> Adults use the same Attributes as children, but an adult with Strength 3 is far stronger than a child with Strength 3. The adult Attribute scale is discussed in Chapter Seven.
>Adults have the same Attributes as children, and apart from having access to the Drive Skill (p. 60), they use the same Skills. The scale on which these traits work, however, is different.
> There is no easy conversion from child to adult, unfortunately. The World of Darkness’ dice mechanic doesn’t allow for an easy “three dots as a child=one dot as an adult” conversion. Instead, consider that two dots in an Attribute should al- ways be read as “average,” no matter how old the character is. As such, if a child of 12 with Strength 2 arm-wrestles an adult with Strength 2, the adult will win, even if they have the same rating in the relevant trait.
And the only way they found to actually convey this mechanically (but not really) was...
> • Adults receive 8-Again (p. 127) on all contested rolls made against children, except on rolls to find chil- dren who are hiding (see p. 65) or to spot children who are running for it (p. 143).

I'd've thought lying to adults at least would get included in the exceptions too if they were gonna go with this approach. Pic unrelated.

>>43768374
Kids aren't good liars. Jimmy's uncle doesn't ACTUALLY work for Nintendo, even if he swore he could get Cloud in Smash.

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>>43738808
Best is humans, preferably hunters or other "human supernaturals" like psychics and sorcerers (I fucking love sorcerers)
Vampire, Changeling and Werewolf are equally good (Werewolf with parts of the Apocalypse stuff, please), bonus points for Dark Age setting
Beast doesn't interest me, never tried Promethean and Geist.
Demon doesn't look appealing from what I've read
Mage sucks crazy ass and is incredibly boring

>>43768454
>Mage sucks crazy ass and is incredibly boring
What's it like being an incredibly banal and uncreative person?

Is there any way to see a future (not necessarily "the" future) through the use of the Time Arcanum with any degree of completeness?

I had a great idea for a Acanthus programmer who uses such Magic (along with Forces and Matter, naturally) to pull data backwards in time from when it will have ultimately finished compiling.

Such a thing is unlikely to be victim to the butterfly effect, after all.

>>43768466
>What's it like being an incredibly banal and uncreative person?
that's not really nice

honestly I don't like Mage because you're basically so powerful that it gets ridiculous. Mage is just the Nth iteration of game designers self inserting as wizards that can do everything and live in a realm of pure thought

They are literally the only kind of supernatural that doesn't have fatal flaws like the blood thirst, the need for hunting, the risk of becoming fae when they are too powerful ... Their only problems are paradox and shit that is so far out no one actually cares

I prefer to play monsters that have something to do with humanity, rather than overpowered humans that only give a shit about whatever 13th dimension spits out metaphorical threats

>>43768479
So you want to do that scene from the 50th Anniversary of Doctor Who?

>>43768499
But that's the thing, everything you said is completely untrue, at least in nWoD. In fact, the theme is basically "you can't do as much as you think you can" and "should you REALLY be doing all that shit?"

Paradox is a crappy mechanic in 1e, sure, but in 2e it actually has teeth, and more than that Mages have the problem of being overconfident. Every supernatural has that, but Mages have it in spades. Their main flaw is literally Hubris. And Mages are the supernatural that is CLOSEST to Humanity. Except maybe Prometheans, who's entire purpose is trying to figure out how to person.

>>43768517
>you can't do as much as you think you can
except you can, you just have to get really creative and use coincidental magic, but you can do almost anything if you spend hours trying to figure out exactly how much the DM is going to allow you to scum and cut corner

So yeah, I guess there is creativity and I'm not denying that, but playing Mage feels like meta-gaming in game and I just don't like it

What you say about Hubris is true but that's already the case for every supernatural in WoD: any PC is constantly tempted to abuse his power and the consequences can be drastic for all, it's just a question of morality and personal choice, not a primal force that you can't control, like a Vampire's beast

Of course their hubris is greater, but that's just scaled up to their power, and they're not even that much handicapped by it

Actually only played 2E once, and I really don't care about mechanics, it's the general feeling and the concept that I don't like.

Also, Mages are supposedly the closest to humans, according to you, but also the ones that can completely dispense from contact with humans

I use them as NPCs, but I don't see the point of playing them

>>43768577
>except you can, you just have to get really creative and use coincidental magic
You're thinking of oWoD.

>Actually only played 2E once, and I really don't care about mechanics, it's the general feeling and the concept that I don't like.
2e isn't out yet, and the concept is completely different from old Mage.

>I use them as NPCs, but I don't see the point of playing them
Which is why I said you're uncreative.

>>43768446
They aren't necessarily good at getting away unnoticed either, it looks more like they picked exceptions that best fit the story, and pretending you're having a sleepover at Brian's house seems just as essential to the genre.

>>43768596
>You're thinking of oWoD
I think the DM I played with used oWoD fluff
>2e isn't out yet, and the concept is completely different from old Mage.
I thought you were refering to nWoD by 2E, my bad
>Which is why I said you're uncreative.
"immediately like what I like or you're a dumb", that's how you sound

>>43768625
>I thought you were refering to nWoD by 2E, my bad
nMage 2e isn't out yet.

>>43768766
Yeah I know I thought you were referring as oMage as 1E and nMage as 2E
But anyway, care to explain why Mage is so great ? I'm only asking to see the interest I'm not just talking shit.

>>43765008
So all those Spring Court drug dealers need to subvert the justice system the old-fashioned mortal way.

So tonight is the deadline I need to finish up my second draft of The Pack for.

But I'm *really busy* constructing a giant fortress in Fallout 4 at the moment.

>>43768479
To instantly bruteforce passwords?

>>43768953
>But I'm *really busy* constructing a giant fortress in Fallout 4 at the moment.
That's a point, what would WoD;Fallout be like?

>>43768979
Ghoul: The Glow?