/wodg/ World of Darkness General

Repostan.

Are there canon examples of Celestines who aren't Luna existing beyond the theoretical level and actually giving Mortals power?

The 'monster builder' rules will be nice. Though I'm guessing it'll just be a version of what was already in Mortal Remains. Maybe they'll put a more clear explanation of ephemera, get rid of that god awful diagram from GMC.

I forget was hunter 2e confirmed a thing? Id be nice just so i dont have to cross reference core, GMC rules update, vigil core, and then mortal remains.

>>43696165
Yes, they confirmed it at Gencon.
>>43694692
Honestly, I have no idea, because I haven't read the nwod Changing Breeds book. But it would make sense that they are, since Werewolves get their ability to change shape *at all* from Luna and her changing faces/phases.

>>43696351
They're probably still brainstorming what they want out of Hunter 2e and coming up with assignments for writers. I'd say at least another month or two before first drafts come in.

>>43695082
>Are there canon examples of Celestines who aren't Luna existing beyond the theoretical level
Yes.
>and actually giving Mortals power?
No.

>>43696596
What does /wodg/ want out of Hunter? Aside from >>43695774 which is confirmed that is.

Personally I'd like to see Network Zero and Lucifuge fleshed out. The former has an okay premise but overwhelmingly weak execution, the second one is pretty great (not super original, but great) and has almost nothing.

To be fair I'd prefer if they just cut NZ in case they failed to find something good.

>>43696819
I'd like to see them revamp Compacts & Conspiracies, ideally tying the former to the latter so that it's easier to maintain dual-membership and there's some canonical rationale for being recruited up the chain.

I'd like to see Cherion's Endowment get a revamp, turn it into drugs or treatments that give you temporary boosts for long-term costs. That, I think, fits a Big Pharma a lot more than just splicing random monster parts onto people (though I don't mind keeping that).

>>43697025
>I'd like to see Cherion's Endowment get a revamp, turn it into drugs or treatments that give you temporary boosts for long-term costs
Isn't there already a Compact with this as its schtick?

>>43697521
You could make a case for Ascending Ones Elixirs being pretty close, but those need to be revamped to.

>>43697025
>I'd like to see Cherion's Endowment get a revamp, turn it into drugs or treatments that give you temporary boosts for long-term costs. That, I think, fits a Big Pharma a lot more than just splicing random monster parts onto people (though I don't mind keeping that).
This so much. Like, I kinda get they were going for a sort of Tzimisce/Tremere MAD SCIENCE THAT BARELY EVER DOES THEM GOOD type deal with splashes of Pentex here and there, but really it's like they realized halfway through that these are supposed to be crack business-people rather than cultists or fanatics with an over-active Id. Which kinda lead to a lot of weirdness and disconnect between fluff and crunch.

>>43697558
Man if the Illuminated Brotherhood ever get more treatment than the 3 pages in Spirit Slayers this'll become quite the crowded niche.

>>43696819
I want the Loyalists of Thule to get access to rituals or straight up hedge magic.

I wonder if the nWoD 2e core fiction is going to be in pieces or all at the beginning of the book.

>>43694692
Are they all Luna's children?
Apparently, which honestly makes very little sense. What makes even less sense is how they are apparently also hurt by Silver.

Well, maybe the Uratha lie about their origins. Luna isn't exactly forthcoming with her side of the story after all.

>>43698957

Well I mean, it's not like Luna's the type to be tied down. Same for Urfarah, really. If there was any prehistoric spiritual couple that were swingers, it'd be them.

>>43698957
Why would you trust a furry anyway.

>>43699238
I would when it's less attentionwhoring and more a bona fide medical condition.
>>43699134
Oh sure, but two things.
1) Spiders? Really? I love the things but this is still some really low standards for a being this high on the cosmic ladder.
2) Why the weakness to silver? They dindu nuffin.

>>43699308

Well, if they developed an allergy to gold, how will they be prepared when the economy collapses?

>>43696351
They aren't Luna's children. The Changing Breeds book, the Breeds in that aren't related to Luna at all. Nor are the ones in War Against the Pure.

Trying to create a city with lots of major events, people, monsters, political movements and magical 'mishaps'. Got vanilla human, Vampire, Demon and Werewolf(and hopefully mage soon) stuff all going on.

Does anyone know any good programs for running multiple timelines next to each other? I got a free knock off of excel, but it isn't helping much. Also running low on scratch paper.

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>>43699622
>ALL THE THINGS in one city

>>43699755
NOT ENOUGH OF ALL THE THINGS.
THATS WHY I NEED THE TIMELINES.

>>43699805
But why would you do this to yourself? Mixed-theme games are hard and will die in flames and napalm and sadness and black eyes.

>>43699805
Massive crossovers are hard to do. I never go too in depth about what the other supernatural factions are up to kind of ruins the impact when I do have them show up.

>>43699622

Honesty I just keep all the running event and times in my head. It works out better than you'd think.

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https://youtu.be/dycMoHn27ao

I've been watching this. I'm not sure how WoD it is, but the fact that there's an underground zombie brain stealing extortion ring seems pretty cool.

So does solving crimes by eating brains.

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How would a Vampire semi-reliably force a Changeling into their (fuck your conventions WW) service, considering the fact that templates don't stack - thus eliminating Ghouldom - they roil a fairly high amount of dice to resist supernatural powers and depending on Arcadia-induced sperg the Changeling's only friends might be other changelings?

>>43699622
Here is my suggestion.

First, don't do this.

Second if you must I suggest chuck Werewolf, Demons (as a visible faction) and Mage, keep Vampires, add Hunters and Stigmatics to taste, keep every other major splat out.

This way you can have lots of PLOTSSSssss, identity shenanigans and continuous large-scale conspiracies as well as many neat locales and artifacts without everyone doing whatever and occasionally clashing in totally chaotic ways.

If you want even more FUN, make the most prominent Hunters VASCU, Union and Cheiron, the Prince a Mekhet and for some reason the city's sewers look more akin to a massive underground temple complex.

All the mystery, paranoia and inherent shittiness of the WoD without the headaches that come with vastly different power levels and agendas.

Oh, and yes. Image related really IS a sewer.

>>43701163

Well clearly, the Vampire would use his/her social influence in order to bring the Changeling under control. Perhaps the Changeling needs some new identity papers, something s/he can't get on their own. He or she could totally feel indebted to the Vampire and his and/or her dealings.

In all seriousness, consider sources outside of supernatural power. These are social games, after all.

>>43701163
>thus eliminating Ghouldom
You don't need someone to be a ghoul to you to do what you want, just addicted to your vitae, which makes people like you.

>>43701237
Ya of course. Connections the vamp has are a pretty good kick-off point come to think of it.

Also, would a theater play the character composed before their Embrace count as a touchstone? As long as people remember and perform it, the Vampire feels like they 1) Still have relevance to the living and 2) Convice themselves they actually did something of use at a certain point in time.

Sound okay, or is it not vulnerable enough to be a good idea from a mechanical standpoint?
>>43701253
Oh wait, right. That was a thing. THIS is why I utterly loathe having to use PDFs.

>>43701460

Nah, that sounds good. Plays go in and out of fashion all the time, so it's capable of being messed with, especially if your game is taking the long view.

Not to be one of those Frodo/Commissar twats, but exactly what good does "being against the Exarchs" do your you or the world when at the end of the day even they most likely couldn't close the Abyss?

Is this one of those things I'd need to read the Fiction Anthologies for to really "get"?

>>43701615
Well, considering the Exarchs are controlling asshats who want to control and manipulate the world and prevent anyone from ever obtaining power comparable to theirs... what good does being in league with the Exarchs do you?

>>>43701481
>>43701460
Speaking of touchstones
>that example FWB one
Maybe I'm both too autistic and squeamish for Vampire, but I can't help but wonder not only how one would even fish as a Vampire, as well as just how much Blush of Life you'd need to spam for the entire thing to work.

Also, vampire tooth BJs seem kinda like that thing that'd be quite terrifying, not to mention Masquarade-breaking.

>>43701741
You don't always have you fangs out. Although that'd be sexy.
Also, what do you mean fish? You only need one blush for sex. Hell, I don't even think you need it at all, really, but it certainly helps.

>>43701761
>Hell, I don't even think you need it at all, really
The entry stays it's mutual.
>Also, what do you mean fish?
Wait, never mind, just re-read it. The occasion was sports not fishing, no idea where that came from. Probably /wodg/ though.
>You only need one blush for sex
And an entire evening spent watching football while drinking. Puking up a slimy mix of beer and vitae is sexy to only a very small part of the population.

>>43701809
I meant "I don't think you need to Blush to maintain an erection". Also, the Blush of Life is "one scene", which could entail four hours watching football. Hell, I don't even think vampires vomit everything up just from drinking non-vitae.

A lot of subtle things have been changed about vampires in 2e, and most of us old hats seem to be mixing our knowledge of 1e and 2e when it comes to filling in the gaps of what is and isn't said.

>>43697025
>I'd like to see Cherion's Endowment get a revamp, turn it into drugs or treatments that give you temporary boosts for long-term costs. That, I think, fits a Big Pharma a lot more than just splicing random monster parts onto people (though I don't mind keeping that).

I think the monster splicing could be held off to be only for the higher dot powers, while most of the others are temporary treatments and injections. But...then you would lose the other part of the Conspiracy, which is that its members are now owned by Cheiron. They have trade secrets and proprietary thaumatechnology installed in their body, swimming in their blood, and implanted in their brains. They're basically guinea pigs waiting to be harvested later.

>>43697025
>>43702316
Honestly, Cheiron is way too popular as it is now. It's incredibly unlikely to change much.

>>43696819
I actually love Network Zero. I think that in 2015 it can be even better than it was then. I mean, we've had revolutions start through Twitter. Then again, how do you have a group like that where their whole schtick is revealing the truth and still have a Masquerade?

I was almost going to play a NetZer0 member on TheReach before I remembered that I hate MUSHes and they aren't ever fun for me.
http://thereachmux.org/wiki/Simon_Pascal_Dresden

I think focusing on Hellvue would be good for Netzero. I'm also remembering a magical cellphone based Conspiracy I made ages ago who had endowments based on Silent Hill (mostly Shattered Memories) and Fatal Frame. Unfortunately I lost all the notes.

What are your top 3 owod Vtm clans?

1.ventrue
Kings of the night, natural Caine-given authority over all kindred. Dominate/presence combo.

2. Nosferatu
Ugly motherfuckers are a treat to role play. Obfuscate is great. Somthing about being the spymaster archetype is cool.

3. Follower of Set
Setite Sorcery + Egyptian lore. Get to corrupt and recruit other kindred to your cause.

>>43703184
Malks, Brujah, and Nossies.

>>43702545
>hen again, how do you have a group like that where their whole schtick is revealing the truth and still have a Masquerade?
I was actually going to point that out before deciding it'd look baity.

But yes, one BIG problem they have is that by default every game that doesn't explicitly mention them winning assumes they've been consistently and thoroughly losing since they were formed. Or, you know, close enough.

Baaasically, it's cool, but it kinda runs counter-current to the rest of the game.

>>43702545

The way I see it is that the Masquerade isn't just a wall that people can chunk away at. The Masquerade is more like a decentralized cold war, dependent on the progress of technology and with regular shifts in permeability. As recording tech gets better and better, videos become more common, but also easier to fake. You don't even need to invest in fancy CG or anything. As we have seen, you can set off an entire federal investigation of a political enemy with just the right amount of selective editing.

>>43699389
That'd mean they are cursed by Helios.
And I suppose they'd have to stack up on useful metals instead, like copper.

>>43701761
If we are talking nWoD, I think they scrapped all the "can hide their fangs" stuff. I don't recall having read it in any of the new books, at least.

>>43701761

You'd need it to get an erection though I don't think anything is stopping someone from putting it into a vampire's bloody holes.

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>>43701741

>>43703201
Why those clans?

>>43701129
It's probably about the closest example of 'WoD-style human turns into something supernatural' playable zombie that we will get. Heck, we even have an explanation of WHY they need to eat brains and what happens when they don't eat brains, and powers via 'full on zombie mode'.

>>43703895
>If we are talking nWoD, I think they scrapped all the "can hide their fangs" stuff.
...interesting. Wonder why.

>>43704541
they did not scrap this, that anon is wrong

>>43704943
They didn't? where can that info be found? That vampires can retract their fangs, I mean.

>>43695082
>>43696637

What about the Sun?

Wasn't there some Miniotaur sunworshipper tribe?

>>43703339
It's not a matter of winning or losing, it's just that in this sort of world it's hard not to have at least heard of them.

>>43703895
In nWoD you don't have your fangs out all the time. That would just be incredibly awkward.

>>43704024
>I meant "I don't think you need to Blush to maintain an erection"

>>43704238
It is pretty good. I like the explanation and I like the way they get abilities by eating brains.

>>43705729
>In nWoD you don't have your fangs out all the time. That would just be incredibly awkward.

I agree, but where does it say that?

>>43705749
I'm not going to bother saving this to my computer for you
http://i.imgur.com/RwHi8Jh.png
http://i.imgur.com/HheyaQA.png
http://i.imgur.com/ObaMyTI.png
http://i.imgur.com/llJxeKi.png
I just did a Ctrl+F for "Fangs"
You could have done the same.

>>43705858
Or you could have just given him the page numbers. Or even just the relevant sections.

>>43706075
56, 94, 126, 234, though page numbers mean nothing when you can use ctrl+f.
I'm also looking at an old copy of Blood and Smoke, so I don't know if it's still in the same places.

>>43706109
Not everyone uses pdf, anon. Some people prefer a physical copy since they actually play tabletop, rather than just online.

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Gentlemen, I'm currently working on my first chronicle. Vampire nWoD 2nd Edition.
I had a few questions if you don't mind.

1. My game will play in the early 20s, long before any computers showed up. Are there any good replacements for the computer Skill in a pre-computer era?

2. Any good guides on how to stat enemy NPCs or do I have to get books from other gamelines?

>>43706189
>1. My game will play in the early 20s, long before any computers showed up. Are there any good replacements for the computer Skill in a pre-computer era?
"Enigmas" is what they use in Dark Eras.

>2. Any good guides on how to stat enemy NPCs or do I have to get books from other gamelines?
Make shit up. You're playing Vampire. You want a Mage enemy? Give them Disciplines and Cruac or Theban Sorcery rituals. Hell, use Dread Powers from the Strix section.

Frankly this is why I'm so excited for the Dread Powers section of the 2e corebook.

>>43706297
I like these Enigma's.
Thanks, anon.

>>43703184
Salubri, Ventrue, Cappadocians/Harbingers of Skulls.

would sunlight or fire kill Caine?
or he just soaks it with his plot device fortitude/mark of god?

>>43707108
>would sunlight or fire kill Caine?
>or he just soaks it with his plot device fortitude/mark of god?
his presence blocks out the sun.

>>43707159

It feels kinda funny how Caine is apparently immune to all the curses bestowed upon him, instead of exemplifying them somehow. Yeah, it's fearsome and impressive, but it's thematically dumb as fuck.

>>43701615

A part of the problem begins with defining what the Exarchs are. Being against an Exarch is more than just "Fuck that guy", because Exarchs are more than just very powerful creatures; they're more like self-aware concepts and actions smushed into one. Any time a fascist state's jackbooted thugs stomp on the neck of a protester, the General is there; the General is the very idea and act of control through violence.

To be against the Exarchs isn't merely to oppose a literal cosmic force of oppression and tyranny, it's also a philosophical rejection of their means and ideals. Being against the Exarchs isn't merely a declaration of war but a belief that those methods are fundamentally wrong.

Worth adding, though, that even most Pentacle Mages aren't "against" the Exarchs, they just aren't for them. Only the Silver Ladder and the Free Council are explicitly against and opposed to them (and the latter almost indirectly). The Arrow, Guardians, and Mystagogues don't seem to give a fuck about them, by and large.

If you fight the Exarchs, you fight to eliminate tyranny, though. If that's what you believe is best, it's a good fight to get into.

>>43701673

>What good does being in league with the Exarchs do you?

It gets you wealth, fame, power, sex, knowledge... Overall, it's not a bad deal.

>>43707413
>It gets you wealth, fame, power, sex, knowledge... Overall, it's not a bad deal.
So does being in the pocket of the mafia. Then they ask you to do something you aren't comfortable with--and shouldn't be comfortable with--and then they keep doing it again and again.

>"You know, people handle grief differently. Some people fuck at funerals...I cut off heads.
Is Travis a Slasher?

>>43707206
it's also kinda funny that Caine made each generation subsequently weaker than the prev so that childe can't kill their sires like gen3 did, yet lore is full of low gen methusalehs getting diablerized by childer

>>43707897
Well, farmer and murderer aren't usually the types of backgrounds people look for when they try to recruit brilliant strategists.

>>43708038
Well he's also scourge of God and even then he was hundreds of years old.

Not a Mage person, so excuse me if the answer's there and I overlooked it.

Is it possible to "store" ephemera in some way and feed it to a spirit to artificially strengthen it? Because somehow it feels like this is JUST the kinda thing you could cheese the hell out of.

>>43701129
Ooh, looks entertaining enough. Thanks.

>>43696819
City-level gameplay. It was there in the core and then got dropped for reasons that elude me even today.

Like I was really into the Philadelphia compact and why a buncha different hunter splats would hang out together, and I hope that becomes a thing again in 2E.

>>43697558
The Ascending Ones in general need a better theme and a reason to exist outside of being a street tier Cheiron.

Like I'm glad they didn't go with the original "Muslim alchemists plotting world domination" spin but they've got NOTHING that other groups don't do better.

>>43708289
...I always thought their "thing" was being as offensive as you can be to The Union without actually being VASCU/TFV. I'm only half-joking.

>>43699622
What I did for my setting was think, "What if I was running an X game?" and created a group of whatevers roughly based around that. Once I had 5-7 packs or cabals or whatever, the conflicts they'd create just by coexisting sort of made themselves aware.

Like the "mage story" involved a Seer who used paradox to keep coming back from the dead. This was a problem, so it became a focus point in the 70s when the Protectorate and Domain helped the Consillium kill this guy for good. This created the current Mage situation, as well as influenced the werewolf and vampire settings respectively, in ways I can flesh out of my players ever go poking around in that direction.

Don't do it all at once; make a rough skeleton and fill in what details interest you or seem to interest your players.

>>43706189
Depends on the NPC you're talking about. I usually leave NPCs loose until I'm sure my players are going to come in direct conflict with them, and design them to be a challenge (physically or socially) at that time.

Other people like to be more strict with NPC builds, but in my experience adapting to what your players can do is both easier on the ST and more interesting for the players. By this I don't mean counter their every power, but be willing to up, say, their strength if the enemy is supposed to be a strong dude but that was before your group's Daeva bought Vigor 4.

>>43707551
Or asking to take up more and more of your brain with bizarre visions and dream commands that you find yourself utterly unable to resist.

Its okay though. You're on the winning side. Its all worth it.

>>43708368
lol

Honestly it feels like they had a few cool ideas and just sorta threw them in a pot for the Ascending Ones. They're one group I wouldn't mind seeing radically updated or just integrated into another organization because whenever I think "What can I do with an Ascending One?" I get nothing.

>>43708534
>>43708368
>>43708289
>whenever I think "What can I do with an Ascending One?" I get nothing.
They're an ancient cult of guardians against the supernatural specializing in both potent magical elixirs and solving matters through diplomacy that have been reduced to dealing drugs to survive in the modern world. I'm sure you can think of SOMETHING to do as an Ascending One.

>>43696819
Honestly I want to see some new Conspiracies and Compacts. I kind of think it would be cool if they had some fan submitted ones.

>>43708220
I'm watching the first season finale now. If you can get over people talking about brains and zombies without laughing at it, it's actually a pretty good show. Also if you can get over the fact that they're clearly using little squishy ball brains that they got from a dollar tree as opposed to real prop brains.

>>43708642

But the Ascending Ones just aren't interesting, mostly because the fall's already happened. If there was more of a generational feud there, there's be something but for now they're just ZZZZZZZZZ: The Faction.

>>43708642
>They're an ancient cult of guardians against the supernatural specializing in both potent magical elixirs and solving matters through diplomacy that have been reduced to dealing drugs to survive in the modern world. I'm sure you can think of SOMETHING to do as an Ascending One.
Yes, but all of this is passé.
>>43708534
>whenever I think "What can I do with an Ascending One?" I get nothing.
Antagonists. That's really it.

>>43708874
>>43708899
I like the concept of "look how far we've fallen".

I mean, the Khaibit are pretty much exactly the same (and are Ascending One's second half) and now instead of fighting Cthulhus and Abyssal Intruders, they're bodyguards for Princes and VIPs.

But people love the Khaibit because Obtenebration and tall dark and spooky.

I like the concept of an ancient cult that has to resort to drug dealing. I think that the Ascending Ones are a good Conspiracy--and they're certainly one of the more liked here, I think--but need a good 2e revamp, like everything else, to strengthen their themes.

In fact, I think what Hunter 2e needs is a different thematic purpose for each Conspiracy and Compact; a different focus for them. Each of them working towards the same overarching goal, but approaching the themes from a different light.

>>43708642
>fan submitted ones

No thanks. The majority of fansplat Compacts & Conspiracies are absolute garbage.

>>43708642
More Conspiracies (they don't need two names at this point, with Compact endowments there's no effective difference besides wasted space) is a thing that can be saved for a supplement. I want to see the base game worked on a bit.

>>43708964
I've seen some good ideas, like the Israeli defense contractors/weapon manufacturers who are Hunters.

It's also not exactly a new idea, they did the same thing with Bloodlines: The Chosen. Some kind of voting system would also be neato. I'd really like to see that kind of thing be done. It's also less of a "fansplat" thing and more of... submitting something to Onyx Path. I mean, that's how they get their writers in the first place.

>>43708947
If they had the guts to really get into how fucked up the Ascending Ones are, that'd be one thing, but they're treated with kid gloves. If we want to get into what a drug cartel can do to a neighborhood it says its protecting, lets GET IN there.

>>43709025
>I've seen some good ideas, like the Israeli defense contractors/weapon manufacturers who are Hunters.

Where can one find those?

>>43708964
Yeah. But the majority of the published ones work only in the US.

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>>43709054
>Where can one find those?
OPP forums. I think they were called Raziel Arms. It's the only one I remember because I keep opening the thread to read it but then not doing that and closing it a few days later. That one just happened to be on the top.

There's also THIS Hunter Conspiracy that's super great.

>>43709025
>like the Israeli defense contractors/weapon manufacturers who are Hunters.
They did weapon manufacturers in Armory Reloaded, though they didn't outright name them as a Compact.

>>43709054
>Yeah. But the majority of the published ones work only in the US.
The majority of players and games played are based in the US, so that makes sense. Also, most of the Conspiracies are international in nature; Cherion, Lucifuge, AKD, Malleus are all European. Out of the published corebook, only TFV is explicitly American. And if you include expansions then VASCU is the only other US based conspiracy.

>>43708947
>and they're certainly one of the more liked here
I've seen them quite often criticized, and you're the first I see praising them. VASCU seems a /wodg/ favorite, though.

>>43709146
>super great
It's garbage that faggot-kun has been tinkering with for years now. Nothing about them screams Personal Horror other than the disgusting magical realm nature of the people who'd want to play them.

>>43709176
Knights of st. George is also European.

>>43709176
>The majority of players and games played are based in the US, so that makes sense.
One of the things they're trying to do is make the game more international and less American. There are now international example cities, instead of just one singular American one.

>>43709191
I wouldn't really say I'm praising them, just seeing their positives. The impression I've gotten of them is that they're at least not hated, though. They're certainly one of the more talked about groups.

>>43709215
That's because you're a small child who thinks everything is magical realm.

>>43709231
Best Conspiracy.

>>43709264
>Best Conspiracy.
They have potential. Alas, they were written before Inferno was published, so we have weird vice-based Abyssal entities now.

>>43709264
It really is a cringe-worthy piece of homebrew.

In terms of popularity, I think from all the games I've seen and played in Lucifuge are the most popular. Followed closely by Cherion.

I think AKD could be a lot better if they just gave you tools for making relics with generic bonuses rather than a list of published relics that mysteriously every AKD member has and are almost universally garbage.

>>43709329
I like it. I mean, I'm clearly biased, but I think it's a good example of homebrew. It's something silly on the surface, yes, but I tried to make it feel like something that fits in the World of Darkness, and I've had enough people like it that I'm honestly fine if /wodg/ doesn't. I tried to make it fit in with both Hunter and the broader World of Darkness, especially Changeling as it's presented in Mortal Remains, and I won't say it's 100%, but I like to think I did a good job at conveying the impression that they're not all sunshine and rainbows, or "magical realm" like people accuse me of.

It's probably the most complete thing I've done, and the one with the most polish. I won't say it's the best, but I'd definitely say it's written well enough that it wouldn't be out of place among the Hunter groups. Certainly no stranger than bikers, Big Pharma, Liveleak, and hippy witch killers.

>>43709438
OH MY GOD.

I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY IT WAS YOU PROMOTING YOURSELF AND DECIDED THAT WAS TOO PARANOID.

I'M DYING.

>>43709377
Okay, okay, done laughing. Yes, we need tools to make stuff. Ten different powersets is clumsy as hell and we need tools to make our own because there's never going to be enough room for every Endowment.

>>43709052

Yeah, "look how far we've fallen" isn't inherently terrible, it's just so damn bland about it. The Crescent's literally destroying communities, yet the actual write ups are so damn dull.

>>43709472
>Okay, okay, done laughing. Yes, we need tools to make stuff. Ten different powersets is clumsy as hell and we need tools to make our own because there's never going to be enough room for every Endowment.

Sounds to me like what we need is a "Reverse Dread Power" system, which is then simply flavoured by group and applied according to player wishes and GM fiat.

>>43709523
Right?! We have no problem looking into how TFV and Cheiron can be monsters, if you wanna write about hunter drug dealers lets DO it. Get out the Wire and Sopranos and lets look at what these friendly peacemakers do to communities.

Or maybe admit that that particular aspect of the game is better left to the vampires and more metaphorical parasites.

So. I have been working on 2e Requiem Dementation. It's basically themed around mad revelation, for both the user and others, and eventually beginning to re-shape the world according to those revelations. But I realized that this kind of stuff isn't for all characters, so I decided to create a Devotion with Dementation, and each other Discipline.
I'm far from done with the mechanics, but I wanted to throw out the ideas I had thus far, to see what you think about them.

I didn't include the physical disciplines, because I don't know if I should add any Devotions to those. It's hard to figure out any that'd work. But if you can come up with some, I'd love to hear it.

Animalism: (fourth dot) Adds a lingering Madness condition to all those bitten by the animals.
Auspex: (fourth dot) Something, something, telepathic network between all Afflicted? Not sure how this one would work
Dominate: (third dot) Delay the madness outbreak, based on chosen trigger
Majesty: (first dot) Basically oVampire Voice of Madness
Nightmare: No idea here. Ideas welcome.
Obfuscate: (fifth dot) Remove an object from reality for a short while.
Protean: (third dot) Shapeshift into some kind of Lovecraftian madness-monster. Not sure about the mechanics though.

What do y'all think?

>>43709527
That could work. What would you want out of that, you think? Like how would you flavor an undread power to feel like a Benediction or Thaumatechnology?

>>43709561
I like Dominate, Animalism, and Obfuscate a lot. Not sure about Protean, maybe instead of a madness monster it could be a new trait for your beast mode? Or you handle the change from thought to instinct better, idk, but just a boogan seems bad.

>>43709472
I'm the only one who posts it. It's not exactly "promoting" myself. Half the reason I post it is because you flip out. I meant to spoiler it, but forgot until after I hit send.

Also, I don't really see how Hunter is clunky. I think one of the more interesting things is the fact that all the Endowments work differently. It gives them a very different feel. Every conspiracy plays differently because even at the mechanical level they're different. Playing a Lucifuge feels different from playing a Cheiron member feels different from playing a member of Taskforce Valkyrie.

>>43709553
Honestly, TFV and Cheiron have basically spent every supplement trying to say they're not monsters and they're actually decent. Or maybe that's just Ashwood Abbey, where every supplement basically says "No no, they don't rape everything, they just throw parties and get drunk".

>>43709527
You mean something like the Trappings of powers in M&M and Savage Worlds? "This power deals damage, you can fluff it as shooting bullets or fireballs or boiling blood". "This power makes it hard to walk, you can fluff it as wind or ice or making marbles".

Technically, Hunter already comes with an Endowment creation section. It's just not very good. It also suggests using Dread Powers as starting points as well.

It's page 191 to 205.

>>43709667
Yeah. I know Protean is weak, I've been trying to figure something out for it. It has pretty much the same problem as the physical disciplines.
It also bothers me that I can't figure out something to put on Nightmare. That one should be the easiest.

>>43709146
>>43709438

It's probably your best homebrew, Aspel, but to be honest that's not saying much. The concept's strong, but it doesn't ring true as a functioning fandom, and it's more focused on Yet Another Endowment instead of actually tackling the idea of an activist fandom in the WoD.

I think its biggest problem is that you're writing a Compact as if it were a Conspiracy. Fandom's too decentralized to work on a worldwide scale, at least to the way it's been written up. That's not entirely a new problem, or unique to you: the line between Compact and Conspiracy is so blurry that one wonders why we even need the Tier system for Hunter at all. At best we have a shakey decentralization/centralization dividing line but even then the Null Mysteriis has an administrative staff.

>>43709561
Auspex: Have a Devotion that really focuses on the Mad Insight part. Hypercharged Auspex, but using it gives you a temporary Madness Condition.

Nightmare: Problem with Nightmare is that it already does a lot of that, really.

Protean: Your shapeshifting is influenced by how people see you in their Madness. Essentially, you change to whatever the Mad think you are.

Aside from that, consider a Devotion that makes someone's Insanity real.

>>43709838
The problem with Madness is that it's such a toothless condition. I've been toying with a "Delusion"-condition.
When you get it, you get a certain specific delusion (the government is controlling people via microchips, people are conspiring against you, everyone else is a Strix, et cetera). This one would give a Beat whenever this causes major problems.
Malkavians have this one as Persistent.

>>43709669

You can achieve a difference of feel among powers without having to write a bunch of different subsystems to get there. At most you need only two or three. You could go all the way and have every Endowment center around a robust universal Dread Power system, but there is such a thing as over simplification.

>>43709744
>The concept's strong, but it doesn't ring true as a functioning fandom, [...] instead of actually tackling the idea of an activist fandom in the WoD.
Now... THIS is actually the kind of criticism I like seeing. That's more interesting than "its' magical realm" or "you're a weeaboo"

Are you saying that you feel the concept isn't "international" enough?

What do you mean it isn't a "functional fandom"? What kind of thing do you think I could focus on to bring across that this IS an activist fandom in a world of hidden magic and danger?

I'll admit I kind of feel hamstrung by the format of a Hunter Conspiracy write up. I mean, I'm not exactly limited by wordcount (hence why I have like twice as many powers as usual), but it does seem like a bad idea to make the description ten pages long. Then again, giving them supplement sections, like in Witchfinders/Night Horrors/etcetera might be worth it. The idea I was going for is that they *are* pretty international--since fandom communities often are, especially the ones for anime--although I can see how not having a dedicated leader is sort of more Compacty.

This is the kind of feedback that makes me want to give it another draft

>the line between Compact and Conspiracy is so blurry that one wonders why we even need the Tier system for Hunter at all. At best we have a shakey decentralization/centralization dividing line but even then the Null Mysteriis has an administrative staff.
The way I've understood it is a matter of coverage and resources. Compacts are regional--a few states, half the country, a few websites, whatever, and very decentralized--while Conspiracies are larger, international or global, and have more resources to call to bear, with those resources being social, political, and supernatural

Basically, these girls are Conspiracy instead of Compact because they're international, have a web of Conspiracy members to help them out, and have supernatural backers

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>>43710030
I will say I'm getting some criticism that WoD is too low power and that Magical Girl anime are known for city destroying explosions and asspulls, and that WoD isn't "esoteric" enough.

>>43710249
Use Exalted

>>43710284
I guess I can't really say "but Exalted is a bad system" anymore, can I? It's actually playable now.

But yeah, I'm not going for high power ass pull magical girl stuff anyway, just Sailor Moon by way of Madoka, focusing on the fact that the concept of teenagers fighting evil creatures is pretty fucked up.

>>43709561
>Protean: (third dot) Shapeshift into some kind of Lovecraftian madness-monster. Not sure about the mechanics though.

Maybe check out some of the Phantasmal Caul powers from Geist for inspiration.

>>43710030

What I mean is this:

When I read the better Compacts and Conspiracies, I know what kind of character I'm playing. If I want to roll up a Null Mysteriis, I know I'm playing a Scully or perhaps a B-Movie scientist. If I roll up a TF:V, I'm playing Delta Green: Now With WoD. VASCU is super popular because right away you know that you're playing Super Cool TV Detective.

I don't get that with your homebrew. I read it and I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be a Meguca or just a Meguca fan. You strike on some neat ideas with fan works spreading messages and the fandom being a sense of community and support but now it's time for this Endowment that only one third of the Conspiracy will find useful. The emphasis is going out and fighting Fae, but I could do that with any other Hunter. The fandom aspect comes off as thin flavoring for what you seem to really want to write about: tragic heroes getting all fucked up.

You don't take advantage of the most powerful aspect of fandom, its ability to hide things in plain sight, and it's ability to alter greater culture. Fandom is fascinating in that it's actually quite indirect in nature: it uses letter writing campaigns, forms cliques outside of the mainstream to create subcultures within subcultures. The active participation of a creator in their own fandom is a very new aspect, one that only started occuring with the rise of the net.

A functional fandom in action doesn't actively go out into the Hedge to beat up Fae. A functional activist fandom sets up the Fandom Secrets LJ community that helps Changelings and Hedge-touched reintegrate into society. They staff themselves at cons, looking for Fae who want to pull a Jareth (You just KNOW sensitive fannish types are the type to get spirited away). They drop references to their show in a popular show for children about sentient rock people. Things like that.

You're jamming two concepts together, when you should focus on one.

>>43710872
Yeah. The 2nd dot effect was something along the lines of what I was thinking.

>>43709561
I think that you should treat Dementation the same way that The Shadow and the Asp treats Obtenebration; instead of focusing on a ranked 1-5 Discipline you should make it a series of Devotions that work based on having specific Disciplines. Also, Protean is a Physical Discipline, so I wouldn't really make one of those for Dementation anyway.
http://theonyxpath.com/the-shadow-and-the-asp/

What are your actual mechanics for Dementation so far?

>>43710882
>I read it and I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be a Meguca or just a Meguca fan. You strike on some neat ideas with fan works spreading messages and the fandom being a sense of community and support but now it's time for this Endowment that only one third of the Conspiracy will find useful.
The idea is that you're someone who was a meguca fan who is now a meguca. Or someone who WASN'T a meguca fan and now is, because you're meguca. It's also not just a third of the Conspiracy that gets the Endowments; I mean, there are a lot of Conspiracy groups that don't actively Hunt. Cheiron's Recruitment division, or The Scroll of the AKD. Or most members of Compacts, which seems to be another major divide; almost everyone in a Conspiracy that's a player character is on the ground fighting.

>You're jamming two concepts together, when you should focus on one.
I was actually trying to go for a lot of the stuff you mentioned, really. The main theme for creating the Conspiracy was two fold:
>"Magical girls are fucked up if you think about it"
>fandoms are like support groups and families.
Basically I see stuff like people getting over depression and recovering from suicide attempts thanks to shit like Doctor Who and felt like that was something that could very much be a WoD group. Which, heck, if I took out the powers and working with some of the Fae, that would make a decent Hunter Compact on it's own, but I really wanted that extra "basically child soldiers in cosplay" aspect that modern Magical Girl shows focus on.

>>43709146
Who would actually play this? This is an issue that faggot-kun always has, he makes things that nobody would play.

>>43711741
I know like 3 members of my group who would want to, and I'd let them.

Only problem is my group has no room for hunters.

>>43711741
The second most popular fan splat is Princess: the Hopeful. Just because you wouldn't want to play something doesn't mean no one else does.

>>43711757
I've never understood that attitude (other than usual crossover dislike, which I do understand). Then again maybe it's because all my Hunters are the kind of people who care more about stopping monsters than whether someone is non-human, and all my non-Hunters have that same attitude towards criminals and abusers and people who manipulate mortals.

>>43711351
Well, to begin with, I'm going with Malkavia as presented in the Ventrue book - a plague among the Kindred. I mostly base Dementation upon how it's presented there. With the addition of the Delusion condition, which fucks up your worldview.

• Whispers of Madness: Give everyone close to you penalties or bonuses to resist mind-affecting powers (Dementation included).
•• The Gift: Give someone the Delusion condition for a while (You choose their Delusion on exceptional), or temporarily change your own Delusion.
••• Insight: Vague prophecies, story-based ESP. Can use on self, or someone else with Delusion.
•••• Mindrending: Re-arrange mental and social attribute dots on people with Delusion. (Or possibly straight up add/remove dots)
••••• Horrors made real: Reality warping. I was thinking of shit like animating objects, fucking with distances, and things like that. The intention was to balance it out by having it put a lot of stress (read: damage) on the user.

>>43711351

You're right in that there's plenty of groups that don't actively hunt, but the key point I am making here is that

>"Magical girls are fucked up if you think about it"
>fandoms are like support groups and families.

are two concepts that do not mesh naturally. Your job as a writer is to make that meshing happen in a way that people would want to play. You either do not have the self-imposed space to do this, or you do not have the right focus, background, or research to make this meshing happen. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that it's the first situation and not the second. You're following two masters here, when you should be making a happy medium. Both aspects suffer because of this.

>Which, heck, if I took out the powers and working with some of the Fae, that would make a decent Hunter Compact on it's own, but I really wanted that extra "basically child soldiers in cosplay" aspect that modern Magical Girl shows focus on.

See, this is what I'm talking about. You're piling too much on your plate thematically, and I don't think it's working. This actually ties back to the earlier discussion about The Ascending Ones. The Ascending Ones are a perfect example of putting too much on the plate at once, and not getting them to mesh. You've got modern day drug dealers, ancient alchemists, and Middle Eastern flavored Judeo-Islamo-Christian Hunters. The write-ups on them spend so much time trying to make the three factions fit and all have a place that the entire faction ends up looking weak.

When you start up your second draft, I want you to do something. I want you to write up two factions. One, I want you to totally focus on fandom. The other, go full Meguca. Go as hard Meguca as your crooked heart desires. Don't work on them both at the same time, focus on them one by one. Once you do that, reconsider putting them back together.

>>43712420
I don't know, I feel like they can mesh. I mean, the way that I'm trying to make them mesh is by "the thing that the fandom supports is magical girling".

I think ultimately--especially with you bringing up the Ascending Ones--it's really a problem with Hunter as a whole, because the limitations (which are admittedly self imposed) keep me from devoting more space to tying those two things together beyond "that show about magical girls is real, and the fandom supports it". A lot of the Hunter groups really have the same issues. A lot of them are two or three themes that are tied together but aren't entirely tied together.

Although usually the parts that feel disparate tend to come in the subgroup sections. Anyway, what would you suggest for putting them together, anyway? I mean, I feel like I've got them put together, it's just not... obvious enough?

My thought process is:
>Magical girling is shitty work
>Fandoms are good support groups
>Magical girl shows are real
>The fandom of the show is made up of magical girls
>The magical girls support each other through fandom

>>43712420
Why not have the Madokas be a kind of Slasher, while we're at it.

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>>43712991
>Implying they wouldn't be

>>43703184
1) Tzimisce - Dat Vicissitude, man. Even restricted to only using it on yourself, it's still crazy. If the Ordo Dracul existed in VtM, it would have been founded by a Tzimisce. Although it would suck to be automatically associated with the kind of person who makes furniture out of penises.

2) Nosferatu - Invisibility, super strength, and belonging to a massive spy network that looks out for its own? Shit yeah. The whole 0 appearance thing isn't even strictly negative - sometimes being an ugly, scary, and generally creepy fucker has its advantages.

3) Gangrel - Dat "fuck you, go away" attitude, Resilience, and PROTEAN. They also tend to get along decently with most of the other clans.

Malks (in theory) would by #3, but Malks (in practice) get last place. They're too Kender and not enough Sphinx.

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V:TM or V:TR?

>>43714012
VtR

>>43714012
I'm okay with either but I find myself enjoying V:TR's wiggle room and better organized splats. I feel like I can do more with it, while every time I dip my toe back into V:TM its just feels like all the stuff that drove me away in the first place curdled.

>>43714012
I started on reqiuem but made the transition to masquerade like a year ago. I like V:tM a lot more.

>>43709742
>That one should be the easiest.
Actually, I think that's kinda the problem - Nightmare's abilities are already like Dementation.

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>>43709742
>>43714300
I'm not >>43709561 but his posts make me want to try adapting Dementation/Malkavia into 2e my own way.

And on top of that I'm kind of wondering... how would you guys redo Derangements in 2e? The obvious choice is as Conditions (and I'm kind of hoping the Condition list in 2e Core and the list of possible Conditions from Integrity breaks is expanded), but at the same time some of the Derangements themselves could use a bit of a revamp.

>>43714471

1. Carry over only Vocalization
2. Done.

>>43714544
>Every mental issue is vocalization

>>43714683

You may not realize this, but it turns out every mental illness that has ever existed is actually just your player using your voice to speak out of character. You can trust me on this, I am a doctor.

>>43714012
V:TR

I like the rules, powers, and political organizations more. I also think compressing the Clans was a good idea. Generation is cool from a setting standpoint, but a bad idea if the setting doesn't have an expiration date like Masquerade did.

>>43717427
I think even with an expiration date Generation makes no real sense. How is there something like 400 years between 9 and 13 but thousands between 1 and 8? I mean, hell, I think Blood Potency would work better in Masquerade, with Generation being handled some other way, with characters who are lower Generation trending towards higher Blood Potency.

>>43717488
I have a houserule where a Vampire's starting Blood Potency is half that of the Vampire that embraced them rounded down, minimum of one.

>>43717910
I haven't actually run Vampire, but I like the houserule that you need to sacrifice a dot of Blood Potency to make a vampire, and can sacrifice more to make them higher BP.

So if you're BP 4 you can drop to BP 2 and have a BP 2 childer (not that most would want to).

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I was trying out a new notebook I made by writing up ideas for a Final Girl inspired Hunter Compact.

Basically the last victim of a Slasher movie who tends to defeat the slasher.

If you can read my chickenscratch, gimme your thoughts.

>>43708197
Yep. Adepts of spirit magic can make a "medicine bag" to store essence.

Mage is about doing the most ridiculous shit you can get away with.

>>43720473
Alternatively you can just use your familiar's essence, but that only works if it's compatible with the spirit you're feeding it to.

>>43720473
Stored Essence in this way maintains its aspect right?

There uh, a Seer force-feeding Spirits he finds troublesome Essence he's harvested from a Locus of "agonizing pain and suffering".

>>43720707
That's not going to hurt the spirit unless agonizing pain and suffering is incompatible with their nature, in which case the spirit becomes a magath.

For example, if a Fire spirit were given that essence, it would become a spirit of immolating living creatures. If a cat spirit were given that essence, it would become an exceptionally vicious cat spirit that enjoys playing with its food.

>>43721070
What happens to the Spirits isn't really his problem.
Either they become a danger and get taken out through their efforts to harvest mana through their new aspect, or they get killed for being a magath.

Or their new taste for pain and suffering gives him a way to manipulate them.

How hard would the shitstorm be if a Mysteres member consorted with someone of the Crone for knowledge? Or would that happen quite a bit?

The way I see them it'd be seen as highly unsavory but virtually impossible to prevent since they're kind of in the Questionable Ideas(TM) corner already. Vodoun traditions especially seem like they'd only oppose such a thing on the lower levels.

>>43721113
They would only be in danger of being taken out if they cross the gauntlet, and only then if there's werewolves or mages around. It's not like there's not already spirits like that floating around already.

>>43721423
Heck, most spirits who cross the gauntlet use killing as their default solution to problems. Even toy spirits go on murderous killing sprees.

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>>43721435
>Even toy spirits go on murderous killing sprees.

>>43721435
>most spirits who cross the gauntlet use killing as their default solution to problems
... Why?
Unless it's a super creepy doll, I don't see what understanding a doll would have of murder.

>>43721564
Spirits are universally predators. They eat one another. Survival of the fittest. If a toy spirit passes the gauntlet and lives in a toy store, and something threatens that toy store, they're going to lash out with all the subtlety of a cornered tiger.

>>43721603
That, and humans contain tasty, tasty Essence.

In general it's safe to assume a Krewe doesn't know enough to inform its members about Mages, right? Is it therefore safe to assume that a Sin-Eater is going to get their ass killed for chimping out at a Mage messing with ghosts rather than backing off?

Especially with how neurotic Mages are and considering that Sin-Eaters tend to have rather loose support networks.

>>43714012
V:TM

>>43721707
>killed
Perhaps not killed, but certainly sent home with a nice fresh set of memories and a newfound sense of decorum and propiety.

>>43721769
I dunno, what's a Mage meant to assume when some punky twat goes full RAEG and starts spamming Graveyard shit at him?

>>43721769
AND studied. Heavily.

>>43721791
That you're an interesting new research subject?

>>43721801
>>43721793
...I do wonder, can a Sin-Eater survive having their Geist taken?

>>43721707

A single Mage? The krewe would kill him first. If he isn't good at Death magic he'd probably have no chance at all. Most mages dicking around graveyards aren't of the Master level anyway and wouldn't be that big of a threat. Probably on the cusp of that mage power curve where they can finally do things yet not do the crazy shit quite yet.

>>43721830
>VASCU finding out just what the deal with the randoms winding up dead in graveyards is
>everyone's collective thoughts when
>NOOOOPPEEEE

>>43721830
Yeah. A mage who isn't prepared for a fight is dead meat. The problem is that high level mages are always prepared.

>>43721843

This leads to the big question: how many Mages are high level perfect rational actors in the city? I mean, a Mage worth their salt's packing Mage Armor but folks always seem to assume that Mages are constantly planning for their own survival instead of doing cool wizard shit.

>>43721819

Probably not. That thing's welded on and it's not keeping them alive as much as it is shunting off their death to other people.

>>43722767

Mage armor is just something you put on every morning before you brush your teeth. That alone isn't going to save a mage, maybe even a couple mages that get gang banged by a krewe.

>thyrsus mage cries because ghosts aren't spirits
>mastigos teleports the fuck out because punch ghosts punch his dick
>moros can only fuck up one geist at a time and gets shived from behind

i mean, mages are great and all but they are glass canon as fuck. when people talk about prep time they usually mean hung spells and shit, like exploding bursts of flame any time a vampire tries anything funny or eating some dude's cum for a week so that he can give him a heart attack in the safety of the mage's sanctum.

>>43721819
>>43722767
There's an entire type of Sin-eater antagonist that's crazy people who got rid of their own Geists.

Nevermind that you'd need Archmagistry to do that in the first place.

>>43721707
>>43721769
>>43721791
>>43721819
The notion that Mages are always the winner in any problem is dumb. A sin-eater, much less an entire krewe, has abilities to bring to bear that a Mage is not likely to expect, and will kill the witch. Nevermind that Sin-eaters don't tend to take to dying well.

>>43722767
>>43722917
>Mage armor is just something you put on every morning before you brush your teeth.
I've always hated that and felt that it wasn't really appropriate. For most Mages there's not even a real downside, since casting in a hallow (which most players are going to want to buy) is basically free.
But even with Mage Armour, Sin-eaters are beasts. I once put a Werewolf at -8 to do anything but cry. I tended to make people shoot their friends by driving them to anger. And I was only one Sin-eater.

>>43722767
>This leads to the big question: how many Mages are high level perfect rational actors in the city? I mean, a Mage worth their salt's packing Mage Armor but folks always seem to assume that Mages are constantly planning for their own survival instead of doing cool wizard shit.

Few. I mean, there's always a bunch of time and/or fate mages who does a routine scan for "will something major go bad for me today?"

>>43722917
>thyrsus mage cries because ghosts aren't spirits
My Moros with a Life primary Legacy was attacked by Goblins last session. Life 3 was enough to make Transform Base Life into an area affecting spell and make every single piece of base life Size 20 and smaller (Grass, Insects, Trees...) in a Radius of ~7m around the enemy into swarms of glorious killer bees.
As an Adept I would have transformed everything into Bears instead.

But yes, a krewe would probably kick ours faces in so hard you'd need a microscope to find whats left.

>>43721707
I usually have it so most supernatural splats are vaguely aware of the existences of other supernaturals. Unless they're really seasoned or a real mover-shaker their understanding will be inaccurate or contradictory.

>>43723026
Fun fact: Grass is actually one organism. Also, Verminous Metamorphosis is cooler.

Tell me more about these goblins.

>>43723026
>Size 20 or smaller
And how many dice were you losing for that spell factor?

>>43722976
>There's an entire type of Sin-eater antagonist that's crazy people who got rid of their own Geists.
What about Sin-Eaters that ATE their Geists? would that be an interesting antagonists

>>43723067
None, because this was 1st edition
Just a few dice for the area effect (enough I had to spend willpower).

>>43723052
Our ST wanted to give our characters a break from the strict life in well regulated London for a bit of fun. So we stumbled through a portal into another world.
Found out the humans living there were the descendands of Vikings whose fleet was somehow teleported there around a thousand years ago.
They began telling us about the monsters of this world, and when they reached the stories about giant animals deep in the woords my character realized 'shit, we are in the D&D World'.
At which point the ST admitted that he had indeed used the D&D Monster manual to populate the setting. Sadly no Dragons though.

So far it has been a fun change of pace from the usual more political stuff.

>>>43722767
>This leads to the big question: how many Mages are high level perfect rational actors in the city? I mean, a Mage worth their salt's packing Mage Armor but folks always seem to assume that Mages are constantly planning for their own survival instead of doing cool wizard shit.

Mages quickly learn that they do not get to do "cool wizard shit" if they are not meticulous about planning for their own survival.

Moreover, mages who have achieved high levels of power have already prevailed against powerful forces. That's precisely how they achieved their power.

Note also that one of the primary reasons mages form and join cabals is for mutual protection. Given the varied abilities of the various Paths, the sum total of power of a whole cabal is much greater than all the individual parts.

>>43699622
Sounds kind of cool. Gives a bit of a Hellblazer/Constantine feel.

>>43723213

Wow that sounds like a terrible way to live. Being a Mage must really suck..

Does anybody mind if I make up an arbitrarily high number of clans? Five, thirteen, whatever, it's too restrictive.

>>43723231

That is kind of the point. Mages are humans, fleshy and weak. Their society is filled with paranoia, either about the seers, the exarchs, the guardians next door or their best friends who know TOO much about them.

They can't protect themselves without a lot of effort and almost everything out there can kill them faster than they can cast a spell. That feeling of being weak is what drives a lot of mages into joining the Seers or going Left-Handed in the first place. Attaining power is dangerous as fuck and before you become one of those dick ass wizards who can turn your clothes into bees, you've got to jump into the World of Darkness and tussle with ancient spirits and beasts only having the ability to redirect coin flips or see radio waves.

>>43723231

Any member of the supernatural community in the WOD, mage or otherwise, should quickly realize that no matter how powerful they may be, there's always something bigger and badder just around the corner. This is not the World of Rainbows and Unicorns.

Nevertheless, basic prudence and vigilance need not all consuming. Given the wide breadth of mage abilities, and the fact that they're basically human and can pass easily among mortals, mages' lives probably suck far less that virtually all mortals or many other supernaturals in the bleak and dangerous World of Darkness.

>>43723303
>and before you become one of those dick ass wizards who can turn your clothes into bees, you've got to jump into the World of Darkness and tussle with ancient spirits and beasts only having the ability to redirect coin flips or see radio waves.
"Redirect coin flips" and "see radio waves" are first-dot effects. Starting Mages have more than 1 dot in at least two of their Arcana. Most Mages have three dots in one of their Arcana, for XP efficiency reasons if nothing else (and because the third dot is when you start getting to do the interesting stuff).

>>43723315

People always assume that mages have every arcana and can deal with every problem. In the case of geists, only 1/5th of all mages will have the tools to deal with them and only 1/10th of all average mages will even specialize in death.

Any given threat will kill most mages except the one that happens to be prepared against that specific threat.

>can pass easily among mortals

That is also one of their biggest weaknesses since most mages don't give up their sleeper friends and families after Awakening. The orders don't bar you from entry because you've got a wife and kids. For mages, dangers to them can easily extend into dangers to their loved ones.

>>43723379
>People always assume that mages have every arcana and can deal with every problem. In the case of geists, only 1/5th of all mages will have the tools to deal with them and only 1/10th of all average mages will even specialize in death.
Sure, if your strategy depends on fucking with the Sin-Eater's Sin-Eater-ness directly. A Mage with Forces 3 and a lighter, or a taser, or a phone can do surprising amounts of damage.

And hell, you don't even need tools. Forces 3 lets you pull the "turn the sound of someone's footsteps into explosions" trick, for one thing.

Matter 3 lets you toss water at them and then transmute it into nitroglycerine.

>>43723378

Not really. The third dot lets you do THINGS but not that many cool things. You can't even inflict lethal damage until 4 dots.

When you play a mage you aren't starting as a complete newbie so they give you 3 dots and an order to start with but imagine being freshly awakened and having to climb those first few steps. Most likely you'll increase your knowledge by reading and studying rather than facing the world alone but that doesn't make you any less unprepared the first time shit goes down.

Redirecting coin flips is a bit of an exageration, but not really because even at 3 dots in one arcanum, you're restricted to that one arcanum. You don't have access to that tool box that mages are known for.

Think of a fresh Mastigos trying to fight a spirit. He can't really use mind magic on it and his space is at 2 dots. He'd be fucked. He has no access to spirit weaponry or anything that can help him out.

>>43723425

Neat tricks but the Sin-Eater is going to be able to out power you very quickly. Forces 3 can make footsteps do bashing damage, whoop de doo. Tossing water and turning it into nytroglycerine takes three turns to pull off. Tossing the water, transmuting it, and then setting it off and hoping that you didn't miss or cause paradox along the way, meanwhile, the sin eater has already chopped your head off.

>>43723466
>You can't even inflict lethal damage until 4 dots.
With Direct Damage spells, sure, but they've always been the worst way to kill things.

Hell, a first dot Time spell when combined with a gun and a Hung Spell (so, at least 2 dots of Time, i.e. any starting Acanthus) can do an arbitrary amount of lethal damage.

>>43723466
>even at 3 dots in one arcanum, you're restricted to that one arcanum. You don't have access to that tool box that mages are known for.
Every Arcanum IS a toolbox. That's the point of the Arcana, as opposed to Disciplines and the like.

>>43723591
>Hell, a first dot Time spell when combined with a gun and a Hung Spell (so, at least 2 dots of Time, i.e. any starting Acanthus) can do an arbitrary amount of lethal damage.

I don't doubt this, but we haven't seen a lot of Time mages in my campaign, so I don't know that Arcanum too well. How is this done?

>>43723379

You appear to have an astonishing lack of creativity and a limited view of the Arcana.

Mages don't need Death to deal with Geists any more than they need it to deal with vampires or Spirit to fight werewolves.

>>43723466

You can only deal DIRECT lethal damage to someone at 4 dots of an Arcana. Any mage who believes they require 4 dots in any Arcana in order to cause rampant and widespread destruction lacks imagination and should by a laughingstock among his mage friends.

If you cannot cause significant damage with most Arcana under normal circumstances at 2 or 3 dots, you're just playing mage all wrong.

With the Arcana "speedbumps" removed in Mage 2e, particularly for Forces, Matter, and Life, the potential destructive capabilities increase even further.

DaveB has repeatedly mocked the idea that "Arcana aren't really good in combat until 4 dots."

>>43723734
Perfect Timing is a bullshit spell. It grants +1 die to the next non-spellcasting roll, with absolutely no cap.

That particular trick requires abuse of ritual casting to store up potency, and then Hanging it for later instantaneous use in combat, though. Store up like 30 successes, deploy it in combat, make sure your next non-casting roll is "shoot this guy", enjoy dealing shittons of damage.

>>43701741
>not wanting your vampire fwb to give you the best deepthroat ever while she feeds

How would you make Bill Cipher in WtF? Isn't he a an Idigam?

>>43724712
He would be an Deceptor, which is an astral being tainted by the Inferno.

>>43725030
I didn't understand what any of that meant, so I'll just say;
>Croikey!

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>>43724712
Bill's a demon innit he? I haven't kept up with the show so idk, but idigam are the spirits of things that never were, beings of shapeless primordial chaos that occasionally get really into an idea and don't let it go. I'm not sure if that really fits. You'd want either a spirit of some kind of concept or an Infernal, I think.

>>43725074
Inferno demons can corrupt ghosts, spirits (creating wound spirits), and Astral beings.

>>43723046
Not gonna draw up a chart, but in general I'll have it so
-Mages: Generally aware of things that aren't Prometheans, Immortals or Mummies, HILARIOUSLY wrong about Demons, mostly wrong about about Changelings, probably not too aware of Sin-Eaters unless >>43722917
>>43721830 happens.

-Vampires: Varies, but mostly as above. Changelings are tasty.
-Demons: Far too dependent on what they were and which Agenda they follow.
-Changelings: Most of what most know is most likely garbage.
-Sin-Eaters: Probably have at least minor crossover with the Illuminated Brotherhood and Les Mysteres, most likely run into Vampires enough for the average Bound to be decently informed, rest is mostly bull due to how their information is spread
-Werewolves: Fairly informed-ish
-Mummies: Depends on individual far too much.
>>43723315
>Any member of the supernatural community in the WOD, mage or otherwise, should quickly realize that no matter how powerful they may be, there's always something bigger and badder just around the corner. This is not the World of Rainbows and Unicorns.
To be fair, Mages are on par with Vampires and Demons in terms of EVERYTHING WANTS YOU DEAD LOL. The rest can get by through being lucky and not antagonizing said Bigger Things too much.

>>43711981
>fan splat
>popular

It's like miles behind Genius and maybe 1/14th of WoD players even know Genius exists.

>>43721707
>Sin-Eater is going to get their ass killed
Yeah right, Bound are not easy to kill and even if you do manage it they come back. If anything, the Mage is the one who's going to be confused and a little perplexed on what's going on with this strange being that's neither mortal nor ghost, nor possessed and yet also all three.

>>43726173
>arguing with faggot-kun/aspel
Why.

>>43726241
I wish he'd just wear his trip so I can filter him.

>>43721707
Ignoring being able to rise from the dead, Sin-Eaters are nightmarishly difficult to put down as long as they have Plasm.

>>43726300
He's stated before that he deliberately doesn't use a trip specifically so he can't be filtered.

He's an asshole.

>>43726461
>>43726300
Onyx Path fora just need to go and stay go.

>>43723791
I'm pretty sure those spells specifically mention that they can only give +1 no matter how high the Potency.

>>43726173
I know people who don't play WoD who know Genius exists. I'm not saying every player knows it, but it's still got a decent popularity. It's well known in places like /wodg/ or RPG.net or other places people talk about games. "Popular" doesn't mean "every WoD player knows about it".

>>43726461
And? Why would I want to make life easier for people who want to make mine harder?

>>43726221
>>43726451
Sin-eaters technically can't stay dead, unless you make the Geist want to leave. And from various comments by one of the developers, they can survive anything and come back post-Bargain even if they're completely atomized. It seems to me the best and only way to get rid of a Sin-eater is by drowning them, or burying them in concrete, so that they constantly die and are reborn, discouraging the Geist from bringing them back instead of going to find a new host. Because there's no guarantee that someone who's Wretched will be left alone either.

I feel like this is one of the things that needs to be worked on in 2e. Because a lot of the stuff on Krewes that treats them like gangbanger cults seems to forget just how hard it apparently is for a Sin-eater to be killed, instead treating it as if they're just really sturdy or have only a few extra lives.

>>43726639
I thought when a Sin-Eater dies their body discorporates into plasm the moment their 'replacement' dies and they 'wake up' in the Underworld.

>>43726775
I don't know where you got that impression. They don't actually take over the body of the person who died instead of them, they just come back with their final memories. Which again is something that could probably be tightened up for 2e.

Sin-eaters only go to the Underworld if they choose to (and as they get stronger they have to choose to more and more).

>>43726816
Speaking of the Underworld, is there actually a way a Bound can learn Old Laws that isn't just getting spanked by the Kerberoi?

...ACTUALLY, shouldn't high Synergy give you insight into that?

>>43727751
I think if your Psyche is high enough you can make a roll to just 'know' what a Dominion's Old Laws are.

>>43727751
The laws are always written down somehow within the Dominion.

Okay, I'm officially curious. How does everyone always know it's Aspel? I can't figure it out. And why does everyone seem to hate the dude?

>>43728094
>How does everyone always know it's Aspel? I can't figure it out

lurk more faggot

>>43728074
Yeah but those can be pretty obtuse, like they could be encoded in the architecture or only visible when you look at a mirror in the corner of your eye, shit like that.

>>43728094
He makes huge posts responded to at least five or six posters, that's one of his tells. But the biggest giveaway is when he'll post one of his shitty homebrews he has two or three; a Geist homebrew, a stupid weeb catgirl Vampire bloodline, and his magical girl Hunter conspiracy. Anytime one of those .pdfs are posted you know it's him.

>>43708964
Searchlight (from the fan made Hunter splatbook on Changelings) is actually one of my favorite compacts.

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>>43727751
>>43727972
While I'll say that the way "Old Laws" gets used is pretty vague and seems to mean anything from "the metaphysical laws of the Underworld" to "the actual Old Laws as they're described in the book"...

Old Laws are not a thing you can claim ignorance on. They're all over the place. Sometimes they're even flayed into the backs of ghosts. Other times they're just plastered everywhere like the flyers in old timey London.

Old Laws are the Laws of specifically Dead Dominions, (not the entire Underworld), and they're generally going to be well known. You don't break them by accident, you break them because you want to break them, or two or three of them are working against each other.

>>43728185
No, they're overt as possible. Also, you can also tell it's me when I make a big, helpful post like this that points out how people aren't remembering certain aspects of the setting or certain rules.

>>43728094
I'm the most prolific poster here (and the one who makes a majority of the threads) and I've made homebrew that people hate.

>>43709176
Valkyrie needs to be NATO and VASCU needs to be Interpol. Problem solved

>>43728185
The obtuse nature is the fun of it. Get creative!

>>43728155
I'm on these threads daily.
>>43728185
His Geist homebrew isn't bad, but yeah, I know the homebrew stuff. But he still posts plenty without his PDFs, which is when it confuses me. Plenty of other people post long ass posts. Standard fare in a general thread. Still don't get why he's seemingly universally despised.

>>43728246
I know your prolific. I just mainly don't get why you're a bogeyman of sorts.

>>43728258
>>43728285
Because he acts like he owns the threads.

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>>43709215
Personal Horror is whiny and overrated, I prefer the dark politics and underworld dealings in Vampire: The Requiem over whining like a little bitch over lost humanity.

My games are much more like a mob movie or a conspiracy story than personal horror. Think "Goodfellas with fangs" and you wouldn't be far off.

Or just watch some episodes of pic related and you would know what my Requiem games are like.

I find that style of gameplay much more fun than personal horror (it helps that I am a huge fan of mob movies and crime fiction), and it still fits the WoD format on a certain level, as opposed to the much-maligned "superheroes with fangs" approach.

>>43728285
Well, his first nick here was faggot-kun, you see...

>>43714012
VTR any day of the week

>>43728439
>not having both

Step it up, senpai!

>>43728246
>No, they're overt as possible.

Cite this from either Geist or Book the Dead.

>>43728246
>usually clear
>overt as possible

Pick one, senpai.

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>>43694945
For the few oWoD fans on here, anybody here like pic related? I'm new to GURPS as a whole but I like it overall, and I really like this Masquerade conversion. It really captures the feel of early VTM (1e and early 2e) without being as poorly formatted and confusing as the 1e VTM book.

>>43714012
I get the feeling that, aside from this thread, everyone prefers VTM.

>>43728487
Eh, I could do both, but I just don't like personal horror. I find the concept pretentious and whiny. I mean, what's the fun in being a crybaby who bitches and moans about lost humanity?

I'll just stick to the criminal intrigue.

>>43728609
I prefer Requiem overall, but Masquerade is decent too. I prefer the earlier editions of Masquerade though (1e, 2e, GURPS VTM) because there was more mystery and the setting wasn't burdened with heavy metaplot like it was in Revised.

>>43714012
VtM. Not least of all because Giovanni and Brujah are fun.

>>43714012
V:TM. I like Requiem a lot, especially since Blood & Smoke, but I'm a nostalgiafag for muh old metaplot and Saulot.

>>43728439
>>43728479
That was someone different
Also, Christ, it STILL irritates me that he was so unaware of what "personal horror" even means. I wonder if he ever got on the bad side of those 1%ers.

>>43728538
>>43728500
"Overt" means "obvious". And that screencap IS from Book of the Dead. Although I will admit that what's written on page 271 and 272 implies they COULD be hidden in little nooks and crannies, or on the back of an insane ghost. Everything else implies otherwise, though, and all the Dead Dominions in Book of the Dead seem to have them laid out fairly obviously, often in public places.

>>43728612
There is actually no reason to make it whiny. The personal horror only needs to be external, that is outside the game, to work. It does not need to be acknowledged in the game. In fact, it works even better when it isn't.

>>43728612
I find you pretentious and whiny.

And, as usual, you demonstrate your lack of understanding of what personal horror is. What's worse is that you've heard all of this before and you're still a twat.

>>43728661
The published Dead Dominions are all shit. It's sad really, they had all these freedom and a toolbox full of tools and they never even sniffed the coolness of even one of the published necropoli of Wraith.

>>43728661
>>43728661
>confusing HentaiLARP-chan with Camilla

HentaiLARP-chan was obsessed with 1%ers and liked Masquerade. He urged for "superheroes with fangs" and was most likely Atamajakki from the Onyx Path forums trying to troll us.

Camilla is also a Onyx Path forum user, but he is a little more rational, although still clueless to the meaning of personal horror. He prefers Requiem (generally because he hates metaplot of any kind) and is the one who loves Grand Theft Auto, The Sopranos, and general gangster fare.

>>43728677

True, but I think our mafia-loving friend has probably dealt with the angstfest styled gamers and that may have colored his perception of personal horror.

>>43728439
Do you know what show would be about personal horror if it was a game? Breaking Bad.

>>43728679
You seem to think all horror is personal horror. I like horror, but I prefer crime fiction. Just personal preference.

>>43728777
Maybe, but that's personal horror done well. You can do personal horror right, but most of the WoD ST's I've seen who try to do personal horror don't do it right and it comes off more as emo garbage and less like Breaking Bad.

>>43728679
>And, as usual, you demonstrate your lack of understanding of what personal horror is. What's worse is that you've heard all of this before and you're still a twat.
Again, I am not that poster. I mean, I'm not >>43728612, but you probably assume I am. That was Amatajakki, who also wanted to do a Werewolf: The Apocalypse LARP inspired by Urotsukudoji, the tentacle rape hentai. And Justified, so he could kill everyone from his hometown. And he apparently was way too into 1%er bikers.

I don't know why you would assume we're the same person, because I love personal horror and was one of the people pointing out how stupid he is. Also, I can form a coherent sentence, and don't post thumbnails.

>>43728720
>The published Dead Dominions are all shit.
>Dead Man's Hand
>The Killing Fields
>The Forge of Orcus
>The Grave Dream
>Oppia
>The Athenaeum
>Lowgate Prison
>Mictlan
>The Ocean of Fragments

Literally the only Dead Dominion that I think is dumb is The Junkyard.

>>43728776
Oh. I can see why people think I'm from the OPP forums primarily, if so many people seem to come over and troll.

>>43728776
>True, but I think our mafia-loving friend has probably dealt with the angstfest styled gamers and that may have colored his perception of personal horror.

camilla has had this shit explained to him like 10 fucking times, so at this point he's just a moron

>>43728821
Exactly, Atamajakki/HentaiLARP-chan was clearly a troll (and a very bad one at that) while Camilla on the other hand probably isn't a troll, he's just clueless and loves his GTA and Breaking Bad stuff.

>>43728661
You mean, faggot-kun wasn't the one spouting that reading a wiki about Metal Gear was the same as playing the game and wanting to do a WoD splat about it ?
I was pretty sure it was Aspel.

>>43728439
I hate that you posted this as copypasta and now people are taking you seriously. You are literally the worst.

>>43728847
He may be a moron, or maybe he's just stubborn.

The generally shitty and condescending attitude of the general WoD fandom doesn't help with his stubbornness and stupidity.

>>43728889
I don't even see how that's relevant... also, you seem confused about what I actually said. If you're going to put things in my mouth, buy me dinner first, big boy.

>>43728847
Camilla here. I will admit that maybe I was wrong about personal horror, and I understand the way you guys explain it and it does sort of appeal to me (the Breaking Bad style of personal horror that is) but for that kind of game, you need a skilled ST. If I had a skilled ST (or were a skilled ST) I would be all over a personal horror game.

That being said, I cannot ST a personal horror game to save my life without coming off as whiny and moronic, so I stick to what I know and do mob stories with vampires.

Forgive my ignorance. Personal horror can be good, but it's not the only way to play WoD.

>>43728609
Only on the internet anon, where most "WoD fans" are vidyafags whose only real exposure to the setting has been Bloodlines

I like Bloodlines alot, from from a tabletop perspective VtM was a cluttered mess of metaplot and too many needless differences. If bloodlines exists anyway why do we need 13 clans? Actually we have FIFTEEN fucking clans if you count the Salubri and the Capos, Then you have the Kuei-Jin, and your Ravnos character just got glibbed and your Gangrel in the middle of a Camarilla centered game now needs to come up with an excuse why hes still there because WW advance the dreaded Metaplot and if this is all so important why are the PCs dealing with the problem when Novel X or Splat Y have Beckett in this city at this time so why doesn't he just fix things?

Most players I've met in the past decade love the toolbox nature of VtR

>>43728930
You're not Camilla.

Also, almost every mob story is about the personal horror of becoming more and more involved and unable to leave La Famiglia.

>>43728933
You said it my friend.

Masquerade started out good but was crushed under the weight of its own metaplot. Requiem is so much better.

>>43728961
Um, I am Camilla and I guess when you put it that way, I do like personal horror then. I am sorry for stirring a hornet's nest with this discussion, I'm just kind of irritated by the dumber aspects of the WoD fandom (especially the oWoD fans) who insist everything must be all teen angst all the time.

>>43728961
To reiterate...

>Good Kind of Personal Horror

Breaking Bad, Mafia II, Grand Theft Auto IV, The Godfather trilogy, most mob movies in general

>Bad Kind of Personal Horror

General whiny teenage angstfests from shitty high school kids or grown-ups who got picked on in high school, dressed in all black, and never got over it.

>>43729026
>General whiny teenage angstfests from shitty high school kids or grown-ups who got picked on in high school, dressed in all black, and never got over it.
That's not even personal horror. Hell, that's the kind of thing people think of when they hear the word "angst", but all those Mafia movies are about angst. Tony Soprano even whines to his therapist!

The second one is really just an aesthetic.

>>43728821

It's like this...

>HentaiLARP-Chan/Atamajakki
Failed troll, loves bikers, hates his hometown, and posts shitty thumbnails

>Camilla
Not a troll, just a moron. Loves GTA, The Sopranos, and Breaking Bad. Hates metaplot and personal horror, but if you explain personal horror to him using mafia movie clichés, then he likes it all of a sudden.

>Faggot-kun/Aspel

Always posts his terrible homebrew PDF's and tries to defend himself. Is not a moron or a troll, just an asshole.

>>43729076
Then I guess I don't hate personal horror, I just hate the Goth/Emo/Whiny Teen aesthetic.

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>>43729122
>just an asshole.
I'll take it. Although not everyone thinks my homebrew is shit. I've also helped a lot of other people with their own homebrew. Like providing people with T-rex stats, because BECAUSE.

>>43729166
Well, at least you're aware of the fact you're a fucking asshole.

>>43694945
>VTM vs. VTR

Which is the superior Vampire game and why is it Requiem?

>>43728634
I've only played a couple sessions of Masquerade, but after reading Blood & Smoke Requiem seems pretty focused on the emotional aspect of the characters involved, which would actually make sessions a bit awkward in the "everyone stop doing things so I can describe my EMOTIONS" kind of way.

On Masquerade the Camarilla dude that somehow accepted me with no deliberation despite being from a sabbat clan just sends me to the nearest church dungeon to kill another vampire. On Requiem I have to keep in touch and roleplay interactions with the Touchstone and shit.

>>43729281
You don't... stop what you're doing to describe your emotions, you describe them when you're describing other things. Show, don't tell. Also, if anything, the situation you described in Masquerade is less common. Yeah, in Requiem you have to keep in touch with people and manage social ties--much of the game is the difficulty in balancing that shit and also doing vampire shit, which is similar to the mafia thing; you keep getting deeper and deeper and it's hard to do things that don't make you more of a monster--but you're supposed to also manage social ties in Masquerade as well, which is all about climbing the social ladder through backstabbing, and trying not to get backstabbed.

In Masquerade you're still going to be met with suspicion if you turn tail from the Sabbat (especially since your bloodline more or less determines your allegiance, and to be part of a Camarilla clan you need to be "antitribu"). They aren't just going to have you do a mission and then it's square and you're all loyal. You're meant to still have to prove yourself and deal with the tet a tet of politics. If anything, you have to deal with MORE of that.

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I could use some help with an idea I'm toying with.

My Storyteller is going to start up a Vampire game soon, and he's real big into the "Make a fully-functional human being, with beliefs and qualities and character, and then we turn them into a monster in-play" school of WoD. The character I'm thinking of playing is a dyed-in-the-wool Anarchist, full on about resisting tyranny and not coercing others and everyone having full freedom. Works great as a character (especially when he gets recruited into the Carthians). However, I'm having a hard time reconciling the tenants of Anarchism versus 1) the vampire's need to feed on the living, and 2) the Kiss' side-effect of making people more pliant and less independent.

My first idea is that he stops considering mortals equals, as cattle to be slaughtered and pawns to be manipulated. However, that's one hell of a drastic change, one that doesn't feel very natural. The other idea I'm playing with is self-loathing, absolutely hating himself for having to be a parasite and his mere existence taking freedom away from others. This one makes a lot more sense and does open up more opportunities for role-play, but I'm not so sure on how to depict it.

I know a major theme of Vampire is dealing with the fact that you're a walking parasitic corpse, but I'm curious to see if other people have run into internal character thematic conflicts like this, and how they resolved them.

>>43729281
>which would actually make sessions a bit awkward in the "everyone stop doing things so I can describe my EMOTIONS" kind of way.
>thinking that roleplaying is divided between doing things and whinging

how does it feel to be this bad at elf games

>>43729820
>However, I'm having a hard time reconciling the tenants of Anarchism versus 1) the vampire's need to feed on the living, and 2) the Kiss' side-effect of making people more pliant and less independent.

he wouldn't make a good Carthian at first, then. Carthians can do the anarchism thing, but one of the key tenants of them and pretty much every other covenant is that they don't consider themselves and the kine on the same level. They're food.

To put it another way, Rose has offered this particular thought about the Carthians: Imagine communists, but humans are not the proletariat, they are the means of production.

>>43729932
To be honest, I have actually played RP games about three times, so I know shit about practical matters.

>>43729955

Figuring out how much of his previous ideals and beliefs survive the change to bloodsucking monster will be a big thing for this guy. It's really one of my major hang-ups with Vampire, wrapping my head around going from John Q. Public to Lord Vixigaunt of the Hungry Shadows. Especially since the GM explicitly said the game is about us as freshly-turned bottom-rung neonates forming a coterie for survival while trying to figure out this whole 'nocturnal predator' deal and the personal horror that comes with it.

>>43729955
What? Carthians are the Covenant most likely to NOT see people as only food. That's not to say all of them are liberals, but the kind of change from "we're equal to humans but better" to "humans are food" is the kind of thing that happens over YEARS. Not instantly.

Then again, usually you don't get randomly jumped by a vampire VTMB style and then told to pick a Covenant.

>>43729932
Elf games?

>>43730205

I suppose it depends on your local Carthian chapter. That'll be one thing I need to talk to my GM about when he's no longer swamped at work.

And yeah, he's an old-school WoD guy, so he is going more for the "turned and dropped" style of game. He's even said he's thinking of not letting us choose who our sire is, so we're stuck with whatever clan he gives us. Would be real interesting if I got embraced by, like, a Daeva instead of the Gangrel / Nosferatu feel I have for him.

>>43730387
Oh man, what if your ST picks Ventrue? That'd REALLY fuck with the character's ideals - your natural powerset has Dominate, which is as far from the Anarchist ideal as you can get.

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>>43730548

That'd be a one-way ticket to "I fucking hate being a vampire, and intend to die in a blaze of glory while fucking the system" town.

>>43730548
>>43730611
Time for that Resilience.

>>43730611
I mean, you could always go for Fortitude or Animalism as your spooky vampire powers instead, right?

>>43730653

I could, sure; go for the "wait, are you SURE you're not a Gangrel?" angle. For now, I'm mostly trying to figure out how that first night I wake up in an alley with an aching neck and a deep, gnawing hunger is going to go.

>>43730548
>>43730611
Or you could dominate people into being better.

Also, Anarchism isn't full on Chaotic Good anyway...

>>43730756

Oh, I know Anarchism isn't everyone skipping in the meadows holding hands and singing Kumbaya. But he's an angry young man who wants to change the world, the sort of person who's attracted to the idea of rising up and breaking The Man's shackles.

>>43730756
Use the tools of the regime to fell the regime.

Instant drama just add water.

>>43730685
If your character denies his instincts, he'll probably just hunger frenzy that first night.

After that, he'd probably rely on animal blood while he tries to come to terms or find a way to work around the whole "must drink blood" thing.

>>43728590

I've never gotten to play it, but I've always wanted to try. I feel like I'd be down for a GURPS version of oWoD in general. They always write excellent sourcebooks.

>>43730205
>What? Carthians are the Covenant most likely to NOT see people as only food. That's not to say all of them are liberals, but the kind of change from "we're equal to humans but better"

This is the problem with what you're thinking. The Carthians are emphatically NOT the good Covenant because none of them are "good" by our standards. They're not made for us, they're made for Kindred. Carthian political views are not based in a mindset that caters to humans, it's for Kindred, by Kindred. Their democracy is for vampires, not for humans.

Observe how joining a Covenant is actually a Humanity 5 breaking point, and the Carthians are no exception.

Ironically, the ones who are most likely to care about humans are the ones most likely to punish them for transgressions as well: The Lancea et Sanctum.

>>43726639
>And? Why would I want to make life easier for people who want to make mine harder?
How the hell is "not reading what you post and responding to it" "making your life harder"?

>>43730205
>>43732380

also the idea that the carthians are the "good" covenant is a very boring in addition to being wrong

try to remember you're not playing Masquerade

>>43732380
>Observe how joining a Covenant is actually a Humanity 5 breaking point, and the Carthians are no exception.
Shouldn't this mean most young vampires, including starting PCs, don't belong to a Covenant?

>>43732380
>>43732518
I said Carthians are more likely to see humans as humans, not that they're the "Good Covenant".
Also, Breaking Point doesn't mean Humanity drop, it just means potential Humanity drop. That has more to do with joining a Vampire Organization than it does anything moral. 2e Humanity is not Goodness.

>>43726139

They aren't wrong about Demons. They just use the same english word for another type of supernatural.

>>43732673
Starting vampires start at Humanity 7, though. Do they just get a free pass on that Humanity 5 sin?

>>43732673
Humans are food to the Carthians (as they are to everybody else, except maybe the Sanctified). They're a resource to fight over. Rose Bailey has talked about this several times.

If it wasn't clear in how the Carthian concept was magnified in Danse Macabre, then I'm not sure how to explain it to you. Carthian Night Doctors are the ones most likely to make warehouses full of giant living human blood bags like you'd see in Blade or Daybreakers, because they're all about devising creative solutions to Kindred problems.

They're no more likely to care about humans than any other Covenant, again barring maybe the Sanctified.

>>43732739
I think the rule of thumb is that if they gain a dot of Status in play (the first dot) it should trigger the breaking point, but otherwise assume it happened in the past and that they passed.

It's just how like you don't have to retroactively roll Integrity for every person your character may have killed in their past.

>>43723603

Yes, but not at 3 dots. Its a toolbox at 5 dots, maybe even 4. But at 3 you can do some cool things and the rest is mostly pointless compared to what other splats can do. Even most of the cool things that fall under 3 dot practices don't work until you're at 4 or 5 dots. You can't even affect magnets until 5 dots of Forces. My whole point is that young mages are not some super powerful "you automatically lose and become a test subject" adversary. In reality, the vast majority of mages are not at the Master level and is capable of all the crazy stuff and in some cases just won't have the right arcana needed to deal with the situation. Let alone how screwed they will be in a surprise attack when all their spells are focused on defending against something completely different.

>With the Arcana "speedbumps" removed in Mage 2e, particularly for Forces, Matter, and Life, the potential destructive capabilities increase even further.

I'm not talking about 2E.

>You can only deal DIRECT lethal damage to someone at 4 dots of an Arcana. Any mage who believes they require 4 dots in any Arcana in order to cause rampant and widespread destruction lacks imagination and should by a laughingstock among his mage friends.

Sure, but that relies on other factors, like having a chandelier to drop or a gun to explode. I'm talking about raw, "you get jumped by a krewe late at night" defensive/offensive potential. And again, all the really creative things usually play out in multiple steps. In the time it takes for your mage to throw water on someone, turn it into explosives and then set it off, whatever you're trying to kill has probably already killed you.

How is your 3 dot Forces, 2 dot Prime, 1 dot Fate mage going to defend himself against ONE Sin-Eater? Its not going to end well.

>>43732739
If you start with a Covenant? Yeah, "free pass", same as if you start with a backstory of "I'm the legbreaker" and you still have Humanity 7 (unless of course you want to work with the ST and lower it).

>>43732742
I'm not saying they aren't like that. I'm just saying that they're also the most likely to actually care about humans as well. If you've got an "animal rights activist" vampire, it's likely going to be someone who fits best as a Carthian. Or maybe a weird Crone, but most of them seem like they'd care more about actual animals than they would people.

Ethan Hawke's character in Daybreakers who was worrying about a food shortage is the Carthian while Sam Niell assuring everyone it's not true in his three piece suit is Invictus.

Do you think vampires go like "you ain't ma touchstone" when someone does something they mildly disagree with

>>43732818
>I'm not saying they aren't like that. I'm just saying that they're also the most likely to actually care about humans as well.

That's the thing, they're not. That person who thinks that the Carthians give more of a shit about humans is in for a rude awakening when he actually joins the Covenant. And those people who keep doing the horrible things to humans, as is typically the case with Kindred? You're obligated by virtue of being a Carthian to help them. Awkward. Yeah.

None of the Covenants are nice, the Carthians do not care about humans. The institutional stance does not favor "humane" treatment of humans. It's just not there. Read their description in the core.

>>43732798
>Sure, but that relies on other factors, like having a chandelier to drop or a gun to explode. I'm talking about raw, "you get jumped by a krewe late at night" defensive/offensive potential.

Combat, including ambushes by krewes, do not occur in featureless white rooms.

I also believe you fail to appreciate the versatility of the Arcana at 3 dots, regardless of whether the discussion involves Mage 1e or 2e.

It's also important to recognize that mages have large and significant social and self-protection and defense organizations, including consilia, caucuses, convocations, etc., that geists and many other supernatural lack.

>>43732820
Sounds pretty meta.
Wouldn't put it past some people though.

>>43733028
>You're obligated by virtue of being a Carthian to help them.
No you're not. Joining up with a Covenant doesn't mean you automatically have to do everything someone says. You don't even have to LIKE the other people in your Covenant, much less help them. It's just that not doing so might threaten your status.

I'm also not saying that Carthians care more about humans. I'm saying that if someone feels like starting VEKA (Vampires for the Ethical Treatment of Kine), they're more likely to be Carthian than any other group. Except maybe Crone, since an Acolyte is most likely to Embrace someone from PETA.

>>43732820
"Touchstone" isn't just a vampire thing. As far as I can tell, "Touchstone" includes things like Mask and Dirge as well as a Werewolf's Blood and Bone.

>>43733202
>"Touchstone" isn't just a vampire thing. As far as I can tell, "Touchstone" includes things like Mask and Dirge as well as a Werewolf's Blood and Bone.
No, touchstones are specifically people/places/things you car about that help anchor you toward one end of the integrity-substitute scale.
Mask/Dirge and Blood/Bone are how you tend to act and what kinds of actions make you happy in that special way that grants willpower.

>>43733202
>No you're not. Joining up with a Covenant doesn't mean you automatically have to do everything someone says.

It's the cornerstone of the movement. You're interpreting what I said in an absolute fashion, but basically if you refuse to help Carthians because you're horrified by how they treat kine, they're probably gonna give you the boot.

Notice stuff like "I Know a Guy" and "Carthian Pull"? These are mechanical representations of the concept you see in the Carthian covenant book, the section that's like "101 favors you can do for other Carthians"

If the culture of the Invictus is "Okay, but what will you give me?" then the culture of the Carthians is "Okay, you'll owe me one though."

>>43733255
Oh, right, the term used for the whole thing is "Anchors".

>>43733280
Yes, but again, it's not some instant thing. You don't join up and lose all autonomy to the collective, and even then you're not going to be the guy someone knows unless you're willing to do what needs to be done.

Also, man, reading the Carthian section of Blood and Smoke (which hopefully got an edit, because the IC part is a fucking mess) I remember why I love them the most. Che tee shirt wearing idealist liberals who embody both the ragtag unity of civil rights movements, as well as the "I got mine, jack" attitude you often see when groups with high intersectionality start snapping at each other.

>>43733491

Which is precisely why my leather-jacket-with-anarchist-A-patches-and-combat-boots-wearing kid is a shoo-in for them.

>>43733507
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry5URU-Py2Q

>Dark Eras and Mummy supplements taking forever
>Wraith20 delayed
>the future of the nWoD is in flux

Just fucking kill me now.

Will we have to wait until 2024 for Demon: the Fallen to get an Anniversary Edition?

I'm atamajakki and this is my first post in /wodg/ in months. Why does everyone think I'm some weirdo from reddit who likes bikers? I only go by atamajakki on social media, not any other names. My big tell is bitching about Mummy - that's it.

>>43734103

All it took was someone making a guess and that was it because it's as good as any. It's not like Aspel, who posts their homebrew to OPP forums under the name Aspel.

>>43734103
Who are you?

>>43734139

I'm some fuck from tumblr and the OPP forums who loves to moan about my favorite games being unpopular.

One day I came to these threads and people had decided I was some entire other person from Reddit, a self-hating Jew who loves Werewolf or something. I was the thread bogeyman for like two months.

I don't get it.

Anonymity ho!

Does Amy still post here?

>>43734054

I hope it gets shelved just like KotE and hopefully old Hunter.

>>43734252

Off and on, but I dunno if she'll be posting for a while. Last time she didn't seem too happy about stuff. I think DaveB and Chris Allen are still the only OPP folks who still post on the regular, with the occasional David Hill.

>>43734290

I wish Rich Dansky talked to us.

>>43734346

You should follow his Twitter, it's pretty nice. Good taste in progressive rock, making him the Best Developer.

>>43734166
>>43734103
I don't think anyone has said anything about tumblr or Reddit, but the same person bitching about Mummy was also going on about anime and Werewolf, and also 1%ers. Also, we know this is the first time you posted in months.

>>43734235
Don't post the same opinion in more than two places.

>>43734389
>>43734346
Only OPP writer who's had to assure people he was not a non-human.

>>43735127

>but the same person bitching about Mummy was also going on about anime and Werewolf, and also 1%ers.

That's not even close to being true. The writing and posting styles between the two posters are different to anyone whose been around these threads and actually reads posts. The only reason you believe that is because someone said it a couple of times without any real proof. It's kind of like how you're still not able to identify Branford despite arguing with him over the past few threads, Aspel.

>>43735372
Iunno, those posts seemed similar enough to the amatajakki posts on the OPP forums.
>It's kind of like how you're still not able to identify Branford despite arguing with him over the past few threads, Aspel.
You're forgetting the other explanation: I don't care
Also, isn't that just as proofless?

>>43734252
Yeah, doubt it. She hasn't shown up since that dude pissed her off by posting with her username.

>>43735691
I think she was dropped by OPP. She was dropped by Catalyst.

Time to flee the sinking ship

>>43735982
>>43735982
>>43735982

>>43734252
From time to time, but she's incredibly incompetent with anything internet so each time is just a cringefest.