Warmahordes Warmachine and Hordes general

Dead game indeed, the last thread died at 95 replies. Where is everyone?

>>43707405
No one plays this shitty game anymore. Good riddance

>>43707405
>Where is everyone?
I'm waiting for the indictor.

I have a question though.
How wasted is a devout on Vindictus?

I'm thinking of using him as my "I'm worried about being assasinated" drop. Which shield guard and sac pawn are fairly redudant, spell barrier is nice. And I could always shield guard the monolith bearer or something.

Thoughts?

>>43707626
>How wasted is a devout on Vindictus?
>Playing Vindictus
Well drop Vindictus and you should be good to go

>>43707405

I'm not sure if I'm getting burned out on the game or my meta.

>new unit spoilers announces
>every immediately has this number crunch orgy
>I just want to push it around and roll dice with it

>new thematic league announced
>sounds fun
>"fuck that there's no prize"

Stepping down as a PG soon. Prolly transferring over to infinity, those guys are pretty chill

>>43708010
The game needs to have a new edition soon. PP has fucked it up and stagnated their game in to one list style and by breaching their own boundary, they put a hole in the game that can't be plugged up.

Game design has also taken a back seat compared to financial decisions.

>>43708382

Mind expanding? I'm at work bored to death, interested In your thoughts.

>>43708487
Google the definition of the word hyperbole and you'll understand what anon is talking get about.

Alternatives are salty, butt blasted, anal devastation, and Warhammer refugee

>>43708010
No they aren't trust me.

>>43708657

>being assmad about people not liking what you like
>calling them assmad

Anon plz

>>43708487
The game has been pushed into the heavy armor plus wounds territory with no counter play beyond "hit harder"

Pre colossals the high armor things were beaten by effects like knockdown, throws and such. High armor was also expensive. The high def meta ruled that world and admittedly the game was infantry spam machine. The thing about high def is that there are workarounds. Elect leap, aoes, throwing your own dudes, covering fire and scathers, denny or harbinger feat etc.

High armor currently due to colossals only have "hit harder" as the work around. Things like black oil and shadowbind used to keep it in check, but that's gone. Even regular large bases are getting colossal treatment with things like implacability and tiberion's immovable object.

The game used to held in high regard because "there's always ways to win". It's just not true anymore. If you can't crack armor, you will lose.

About financial decisions, why do you think we are getting so many free or reduced cost things for theme lists? PP wants to sell more stuff. The blind and shadow bind nerf is removing last of the abilities that affect colossals so they are more desirable financially.
Khador's last jack releases are also indicative of finances first game design second. Recknoning had berserker variants with feature that khador objectively did not need. Khador already had shieldguards and berserker already filled the cheap jack niche. Only reason it was made was to sell plastic berserker kits when metal berserkers were getting too expensive. Every faction feels like they got stuff that no one needed. Not saying that the releases were bad or anything, but it's painfully obvious that models are being made, not to enhance the faction, but consolidate or find money making methods.

>>43708010

Infinity is a good game, but its player base is shit.

>>43708657
There are plenty of alternative games that are as fun, if not more fun, than Warmachine.

I really like Warmachine, but even I can see that it has an image issue and minor gameplay issue.

The image issue stems from Page 5 and the players that embrace by usiing it as an excuse bringing mismatched lists to a budding community. It makes it out to look like PP only cares about tournaments and consequently, tournaments require huge amounts of time and dedication. Meaning that Warmachine is seen as a "Git Gud or Git Out" kind of game.

The gameplay issue is that it's a skirmish game that is not a skirmish game. Smaller pts values are unbalanced and easily gamed, and larger pts take a significantly long amount of time to be palatable for most people (made worse by the abundance of faster games like X Wing/Guildball and the like).

The main thing that sold Warmachine and Hordes was that it was a game that had very clearly defined rules and had a really cool resource management mechanic. That is no longer enough to cut it in today's miniatures world. There is not enough to entice brand new players towards Warmachine and the old players are getting older and growing up.

No new blood. Old blood burning out.

The few stores I have seen with plenty of new blood have a very strong new player generation engine in place. They aggressively push Hordes/Warmachine and there is an unspoken pact to not stomp the newbie unless you teach them how to beat your shit afterwards.

There are leagues, book release events. All sorts of things to keep the game from stagnating.

>>43708883
I used to think infinity was a good game too, but after year of playing it, i think it's just super clunky as fuck.

Just starting from the set up stage the game demands quite a lot and it just never seems to get any easier.

What kind of infinity fags are y'all dealing with? The standard warmachine player seems to require winning to validate his life. The worst of the local infinity fags tries to help out scrubs while crushing them on the worst kind of way. Like getting a mob of flamethrower guys in your face turn one and then keep telling you that you need to walk into the flame wall the entire game or else you won't win. I don't understand how he could understand tactics, tell you to play into them, and not be an asshole.

>>43709607
The good Warmachine groups do the same.

I never had a problem with Infinity folk.

>>43709607

The kind who go on and on about how it'sthe greatest game ever made and shit on other games pretty much constantly while also fapping to their models "sexy asses." They're an interesting combination of arrogant assholes and creepy that guys.

>>43709607
It's the game itself.

The infinity as a game is not super friendly to casuals and it requires quite the dedication to just play it, let alone get good in it.

I dabble in a lot of stuff and infinity demands too much from me just at the prepwork stage alone.

>>43708936
>PP only cares about tournaments
Well that's just wrong, you even mention part of the reason why

>There are leagues, book release events. All sorts of things to keep the game from stagnating.

PP puts out more leagues, events, and casual stuff than anything else. If you're meta is just all tournaments all the time you're doing it wrong.

>>43709778
>"It makes it out to look like PP...."

It all falls back on the players.

>PP puts out more leagues, events, and casual stuff than anything else. If you're meta is just all tournaments all the time you're doing it wro


People don't show up, because the meta has spoken. RIP Casual-Machine.

>>43709858
Then your meta sucks giant dicks

>>43709750

Infinity has a lot of rules to memorize, and a bunch of clunky rules but I find it boils down to pretty simple list building (If using ITS) and a fairly straight forward game once you know the tempo of the game. The factions are all fairly similar so everyones gameplan is generally the same.

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>>43709876
Yes... yes it does.

>>43709983
>It doesn't actually suck. I'm just bitter that no one stuck around anymore.

There is no meta left. Just 3 dudes.

>>43707405
I used to play it back in 2004.

I just moved to a new meta. Its huge and the people are awsome. Good mix of competative and casual players with a lot of tournaments and great prize support. Hopefully I'll be able to get better

>>43712641
Where you at?

>>43713100
Sacramento

>>43707405

I've been pretty burned out from the game for a while. Sick of waiting for releases that should have come out months ago while books that are not even released yet have their models coming out.

Also pretty sick of my local meta. One store has a PG who only runs tournaments with janky formats and barely does anything while actually there(makes the players set up everything and almost leaves half way through the event for some bull shit excuse) and the other store in my meta can't do tournaments longer than three rounds thanks to store hours.

>>43708010

>Officially the MTG of Miniature games

>>43715144
implying the army building using same synergy mtg game uses is a bad thing.

go back to your buckets of dice rng game if you don't like it.

Lets brainstorm ways to make the game more better

What if everyone had access to 20pts of specialists? I think it would make list chicken more flexible

>>43716321
You already have 2 list option
You have acess to adr wich already gives specialist (and if you go vanguard you get to do 20 pts per list)

stop smoking crack please.

>>43716321

I haven't played in about a year (less burnout and more IRL shit), but sideboards in a multi-list format already kind of stretch at the limit for me. Two 50-point lists is a non-trivial amount of stuff to have out on your carrying tray before you factor in additional sideboard models, and I've never really liked the Xzibit style pregame of playing list chicken while you play list chicken.

Instead of trying to paper over bad casters/locks with ridiculous theme lists or arbitrary carrots in the tournament rules, I'd much rather they revisit low-tier casters/locks, figure out why they don't work (or don't work well enough), and then adjust them accordingly. Part of the sense of stagnation comes from feeling like you only have 2-3 "good" caster choices at any time, and I feel like making casters/locks like eMorghoul and Rhyas be not-clowncar choices outside of their tier lists would help a lot.

Of course, part of this would involve reining in some of the cray-cray tier lists, and I fear PP might have gone past the point of closing that particular Pandora's box so who knows.

>>43716491
20 pts specialists would be interesting. It might be the soft nail in the coffin of broken ass theme forces and people will finally stop complaining!

Inb4 Ashen Veil Satyxis Raiders.

I just want skews to die desu.

>>43717035

you do realize you get 20pts in vanguard if you pick both your casters from ADR right? ti's called VANGUARD

>>43717050
Unless it's standard, its pointless. In all my time playing the players never liked to stray from the defaults.

Probably on account of having to travel for your tournaments in our area.

>>43716321

Maybe take some cues from Magic and have alternate formats.

>Only allow C-list and below casters, everything else is allowed
>All units allowed minus a few from a banned and restricted list
>No tier lists
>Warmachine only or Hordes only
>Only allow units from certain books
>Mono faction formats
>Etc

There's a lot of places we could go with formats.

>>43717120
wow are you daft?

READ THE GODDAMN EVEN RULES

IF BOTH YOUR CASTERS ARE ON ADR IT'S CALLED A VANGUARD FORCE

EACH ARMY LIST GETS 20 POINTS IN SPECIALISTS TO USE ...

READ THE FUCKING EVENT RULES

>>43717404
Not him, but I was talking about just having a sideboard all the time.

Everyone knows vangaurd is a thing, noone is talking about vangaurd.

>>43716996
Thats a good point, having to lug around possibly 140 points worth of stuff could be a pain

>>43717035
B-but I love my ladies!

okay so this seems like the place to ask this but I'm looking for some help.

So I recently got into Warmachine and bought the Cygnar battlebox and 'Siege' Brisbane as an alternate Warcaster, and while I have had a few battles with some of the other battle-box sets so far, and even a few wins under my belt I was hoping to expand the list more so I can play matches against something other than the battle boxes. I will probably be doing some ordering of units eventually but that takes time and in the meantime I wanted to get something to fill out my army from what's on the shelf at my LGS (its scarse because most players at that LGS order through the store owner so she doesn't have to keep a very large stock on-hand and it supports the store) so what they have available for Cygnar off-the-shelf is:

>StormGuard
>Long gunners
>Trenchers
>Trencher chain-gun crew

I'm trying to decide on one of these.

the stormguard could be a good addition since they can screen my Charger Warjack or warcaster from assaults and could go on the offensive as needed but they seem expensive and I am thinking that they might start getting in the way later on in the game.

then again aside from the Warcaster and Charger Warjack I'm short on range attacks and could use the extra guns of either the long gunners or trenchers (from what I've read long gunners have range but no survive-ability, trenchers don't have the same range but can give themselves and others defensive bonuses through dig-in and smoke bombs, but everything I've read says they are expensive)

the Chain Gun is also a good option as it seems to have a lot of attacks and can somewhat control battlefield movement though it's not particularly mobile and I'm already imagining that if something changes it could quickly become a liability.

some insight would be nice.

>>43718270
They're bad.

Really bad.

If you must, Long Gunners.

But don't.

>>43718389
could you be a bit more specific?

for the guy who is still learning this.

>>43716321
The game needs to be fundamentally restructured with huge bases in mind.

>>43716321
If they were going to do that, I'd want the specialist points tied to warcaster power.
So a strong caster might get 0-5 while a mediocore one might get ~12

>>43717825

What it comes down to though is guys like this >>43718270
Reasonably he should be able to pick at least one of those units in a small points game and do o.k. (aside, anyone remember when infantry were 'support' models to your main force of jacks)

There are a lot of infantry units out there that do absurd damage for the points cost to the point that they outclass everything else, if this WERE magic then a unit would be banned or nerfed into very selective uselessness and people would get over it and buy new cards. Instead Banes are never allowed to be bad and infantry walking around with 19 ARM is considered a passable front line force if they have something else going for them.

You get people crying a lot for a mk3 and it gets dismissed out of hand (by me as well) but it feels like the only time anyone really got taken down a peg in a systematic thoughtful way was mk2... and then you look at how absurdly good and focused the top lists have to be to even compete, and the factions that do well are the ones that encourage that with every model.

Unpopular opinion; Game should be balanced at 15/25 instead of 35/50.

It would force PP designers to come up with an answer for "what happens if this is 1/3 your force and your opponent didn't bring hard counters".
Large tournaments would cut the fat out and be done faster, less tank time under deathclock encourages actual page 5 (rather than being a sweaty cunt and calling it page 5).
MUCH easier for players to get a feel of what the game is really like and skew lists/weird unit choices can't be stifled by throwing bodies at it, you actually need to come up with a plan.

Oh and runes doesn't have a 50 point landing strip to get crazy with, fuck people running runes.

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>>43718270
Stormguard are probably the best of a bad lot (no reach infantry on a small base and CMA is ever Bad exactly) but they are fail as all fuck in the current meta.

Best bet is to have decent shooting behind them to take advantage of ranked attack, by 'decent shooting' i mean POW12 or armour piercing accept no substitutes and even then it's kinda turd polishy.
Avoid the trenchers, they look good except that they will NEVER earn their points back, too easy to remove, too pillowfisted to get the job done, you will thank me the first time you see someone just flat out ignore a trencher squad and not get punished for it

>>43721772
But wouldn't that lead to skew lidt increase.
I can't field thing to deal with all skew with 25 so I auto-loss

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On the subject of the meta gravitating away from casual formats: I'm a PG who's running a casual format (shared battlegroup) charity event. Out of any steamroller I've run it's had the lowest pre-reg and interest from the players, even with additional prize support from PP for raffles.

Casual players having a place in this game is key to its long-term survival, just not sure how to help that along when my meta is more concerned about only ever practicing for steamrollers.

>>43721772
There's a reason that's an unpopular opinion. The smaller the game, the more a skew matters, and the less tools you have to take care of trouble makers. What your suggesting would actually make skill less important, and put everything into list building and absolutely pray you don't run into somebody that can take you down.

>>43721939
>>43721951

50 points hasn't stopped ridiculous skew, it's just meant that it costs more to skew now.
Look at any tournament winner and you find very few 'tools to deal with troublemakers' it's all skew all the time out there, admitting that their competitive meta is made up only of people that want to lean as as hard as possible on a single strategy to win and making THAT work would be a lot better than pretending a list is 'take all comers' because it eats the opposition in a way that doesn't have hard counters.

Equally valuing units for filling more than one role depending on the state of the game in some way would be nice, what we have at the moment is that any unit/warnoun designed to do more than one thing gets called crap unless it can do both of those things better than everyone else.
A wargame that treats flexibility as a negative already needs work.

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>>43709119
Is there any good tactical tabletop game anymore?

I played Warmahordes (as Circle, Skorne) for 7 years. Ended up qutting for a year twice in that max, working on my third now.

Infinity was indeed clunky and I felt like I was being penalized for bringing anything larger than an infantry troop.

40K kept me entertained for painting, but not playing or interacting with the player-base.

What's left? Anything up and coming?

>>43722713
Malifaux, SAGA, Historicals, Batman in europe, Dropzone, Eden...

>>43722713

Malifuax is fun!
Guild Ball is fun!
XWing is fun, probably the most casual minis game out there, but with enough tactics to satisfy me.
If you can find a good group , Flames of War is pretty fun.

Right now I'm really feeling Armada. Secret order of activations is pretty fun.

The only reason I play Warmachine and Hordes is because of the fluff, art style and medium scale battles. I don't like it as a competitive game at the moment. For reasons I won't go into for fear of angry troll guy insisting it's balanced.

>>43722713
Battletech is brilliant, if you can either handle the autism or have a tool that can take care of the math for you.

>>43722873
I thought the Alpha Strike variant was supposed to help with that.

>>43722006 #
You clearly have no idea how this game works.

50 points allows for skews, yes, but it does let you bring everything you need to defeat a skew list. You can't do that at 25 points. Seriously, how are you going to beat Bart and a Galeon? Or fuck, how about Stryker and a Stormwall with 25 points?

Gun Mage or Duelist for IKRPG?

Also, if Gun Mage, should it be Arcane Tempest or Amethyst Rose?

>>43723641
Disloyal? We know how the game works you evangelist.

We just aren't 100 happy with it right now, at least not enough to make it our only game.

Some of us get tired of the same ole, same ole. Especially those of us playing for ten plus years.

It doesn't mean the game is bad, just means its a .lol game.

Just like any other.

>>43723724
Why not both?

>last year, order Deathjack chimneys to get them in metal
>they're made of resin
>this month, order Deathjack chimneys again
>this time they're made of metal

Congrats for jewing $1.50 from a dumb goy like me, Privachtehrim Peresshim

>>43724131
Did you specify you wanted metal parts numb nuts?

>>43724006
Because I want to go into Knight after I get a few levels.

>>43724150
No, since the it didn't say that it's made of resin, unlike for some other parts that are also made of resin.

>>43724153
I don't see how that stops you going Gunmage/Duelist.

>>43724232
It doesn't, but I want to focus more on one or the other.

I just want a Ret feat that doesn't just add more dice. Tyrone is awesome but his feat can be underwhelming compared the rest of his kit.

>>43724358
Rolling more dice is how you win games

>>43724358
ret feats all suck welcome to elf

>>43723724
gun mage duelist, pump def and get some decent armor, get

>riposte
>gunfighter
>fast reload (to make sure your gun is always loaded)

>magical gun kata

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So what's everyone working on? Post pictures of your painted/wip models

>>43724358
Play Garyn? (Moros' caster)

>>43724487
So I'm guessing the Amethyst Rose spell list would be better for that? Also, I'm planning on getting heavier armors.

>>43726755
Like the game

So if I want a tanky PoM caster, do I play feora, vindictus, durst or reznik?
The last two are on medium bases, which would be a problem if they didn't like to run jacks

>>43727011
Durst. No question there.

What is black penny actually referring to?

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Get hyped

>>43727595
the song by big black

>>43727804
>Get hyped

I'm trying not to.

I'm failing hard.

>>43727804
are they going to make the kovnik worth taking?

>>43727804
What is it?

>>43728169
A Man O War

>>43723672

Well my point was always that 50 points doesn't fix skew, but it DOES create a bunch of issues introducing new players to the game and making it easy to skew in a way that can't be dealt with (see runes, et al). And yeah that's a problem for the game in general but something like runes at 25, when you have to actually make hard choices about what to keep in, yeah that would be nice.

>>43729058
You shouldn't be introducing new players to 50 point games. They should be starting at like 15 and working up.

Only force them into 50 points if you want to make them leave and never come back

>>43727804
Not Inflictor/10

>>43729303
No one gives a fuck about Cryx

>>43729236
Just so, i play 15 pt games all the time with newbies, i then have to explain that "actually the game isn't meant to be played this way" and it takes the wind out of their sails a lot of the time. And why not, having a special introductory mode that plays little like the actual game is a dick move! If i could say to then "actually this isn't how it's normally played, now pick another 10 points of stuff and you are good to go" it would do a lot to make me and my PG feel less like drug pushers (and shorter rounds would be nice too, in a small meta it gives you a chance to change things up and a bigger one you get more opponents)

>>43729464
Well people generally dont care about meme o wars

Stay mad

>>43727804
why would anyone be excited about a model that has three different units already?

>>43729514
What are you talking about? The game is meant to be aged at 15, 25, 35, 50 and so on. Nothing wrong with playing smaller games if that is what they want to do.

Why are you forcing them into 50 points if that's not what they want to do?

>>43729782
Because the theory is that it's a model designed to buff those three units.

>>43729803

Everyone else plays 50. There is strong pressure to play at 50.The Steamroller is almost always 50.

The netlists you get at DGI are nearly all 50.

50 is almost different game compared to 15.

>>43729894
my and my group are considering doing steamroller at 42 or 48 max. after about a year of playing at those points, it just feels so good. no blot lists and shit

>>43729894
The point is that you don't just jump in at 50. You work up to it so you can learn the game mechanics.

>>43729927
And that anon's point is, who's going to do that? Most players aren't going to want to help you scale-up, not because they don't want new players, but simply because it's not how they play the game. And why should you have to? Ideally the game ahould be balanced regardless of the points level, but it's really not.

>>43729927
Yes but the scale up is very harsh. People that like 15 may not like 50.

Because the focus spent on Jacks most of the game.

The only faction that plays remotely similar to that is Legion. So it kind of feels like the demo is a bit misleading.

>>43730128
>And that anon's point is, who's going to do that?

New players and people introducing new players to the game.

>>43730153
>and people introducing new players to the game

And like I said, most people aren't going to actually want to do that. They don't want to play at the really low points level a new player needs to play at, and if the new people don't have enough people, who aren't just looking to crush newbies, to play they risk getting burnt out or disinterested.

>>43730193

People in your meta must be shit. Around these parts people are very accomodating of new players.

>>43729803
yeah read >>43729894 the tourneys play at 50 because pp say that's how they balance, they used to say 35, tourneys were fine with that, they would adapt.
I'm not forcing anyone to play jack shit, they are bringing 15 points along and finding no comers because "that's not how you play it". No-one in that situation is at fault, the regulars want to keep doing what they were doing and the new guys don't want to drop a ton of money just to play.

>>43730131
This, a million times this, angry beasts and giant robots hitting one another is what sells players on the game, then at some point you have to explain they need to stop doing that and play the OTHER game.

>>43730153
i don't know about you but i get newbies in packs of 1-4 a month, assuming my PG and i wanted to do nothing all day forever but play slow grows and newbie leagues that's 6 on a good month, if I'm willing to and able to turn up every week (I'm a nice guy, not THAT nice) and then after I'm finished doing that for a month...Hooray maybe 50% stay because as above, the stuff that sold them on the game is a sideshow to the actual game they had to learn along the way.

>>43730246
nice.
>need new players for a bigger, better meta
>get new players to play
>they have no-one to play with because people won't play little league if they don't have to
>new players leave
>...
>well clearly you need better players

^^^ that's an unbreakable cycle up there until you provide a fun, balanced environment for veterans to play low point games.

>>43730341
>need new players for bigger, better meta
>get new players to play
>veteran players, recognizing the need to foster growth of new players play smaller points games to teach newbies the ropes
>new players continue to learn the game and acquire new models, slowly building up and playing higher points values

Yeah, you definitely need better players.

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>>43729833
woo, another model that buffs something that no one really cares about

>>43730506
>no one cares about Man-o-Wars

U wot m8?

>>43730425
i need better players to get better players you say?

again, if players need to do chores to spread the game to others, that's a problem. 15pts should be a fun thing not a rational decision matrix

>>43730536
15 points is fun, though.

It's just not as fun as 50 points.

Just finished 3rd rank in Journeyman League, still mostly losing to stupid mistakes, bad range estimates and not knowing what I'm up against. Not that the other players would conceal unit profiles from be, but sometimes you don't make the connection how thing work together just from giving them once over.
On the flipside, I can actualy feel the git gud now, just couple (dozen) more games...

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>>43730567
Right but given the game is made by humans and not carved in stone tablets by aliens, i return to my original point that if higher point values are just better/more fun in every way, that's a design bug as bad as any serious factional imbalance, because it presents a scenario in which people you are trying to sell the game to aren't getting the best of what the game is.

So again; Game should be balanced at 15/25 instead of 35/50.
Shit would have to change (unpopular opinion 2; change is GOOD for competition and therefore the game as a whole) but you would be able to represent the games virtues to a new player quickly and easily, and get them playing with an army of choice just as fast.

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>>43730682

>>43730694
I need that terrain...

>>43730694

You use low points games are to introduce the mechanics incrementally so new players aren't overwhelmed. You explain this to new players and talk to them about the game so that they don't get the wrong impression. Really don't see what's so complicated about that.

>>43730724
are you an ant?

>>43730755
it's not a question of complication, it's more that there are substantial benefits to the game used to introduce new players ALSO being fun and well designed, right now it isn't because no-one who plays for a long time cares enough to play at that level as anything other than a chore.

I'm not suggesting we burn the whole thing to the ground, I'm saying 50 can stay and the balance can shift to smaller games to everyone's benefit

>>43730869
>no-one who plays for a long time cares enough to play at that level as anything other than a chore

Plenty of people in my area play the occasional small point game just for the variety. Honestly, these issues all sound like they're on you and your players more than anything else. Like I said earlier, the people in your meta must be shit.

>>43730975
Right but then as i have said twice now how do you fix that.
your answer for 'how to get better players' involves already having them, even ignoring the solipsism in the idea that because YOU have people happy to do it, everyone should have some as well or give up it also requires that there is already a meta in place, i pity the FLGS that has to try and start a meta from scratch with only a few players, most of them green.

There is a lot of community bitching that certain local metas just breed better tournament players than others, that moving to the wrong area can ruin your game while you get things rolling (or just get you to quit) or that metas can stagnate, that the perpetually low hanging fruit of "I'm here from GW and ANGRY" might not always be there to sell the game to, i just don't think making any of it harder, more expensive, or less intuitive than it has to be will help. ever.

>>43731112
>Right but then as i have said twice now how do you fix that.

It's not something you can fix through the game. Shit players make shit metas. Good players know that a healthy game needs a healthy community and that requires nurturing new players and forging strong bonds and friendships.

You want a good meta, you need good people. People who give a shit beyond just rolling dice and moving little toy dudes around. People who give a shit about other people. If you don't have that, your meta's going to be shit regardless of the game.

Is the Iron Kingdoms PnP amy good?z I really like the Warmahordes setting and the RPG looks neat but I havent ever heard of anyone actually playing it

>>43731723
Play the DND modules if you want p&p iron kingdoms

>>43731723
it's great for people who play the game. It runs on basically the same system as the minis game, so you can cross rules between the two and do other neat things.

It's fairly unique, but it's also pretty easy to game the system and make some combat monsters right out of the gate. That's just another part of the game, though, and anyone who plays the main game already knows the strategies to deal with such things.

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>>43731743
>the D&D modules

This is bait. The 3e modules were shit. shiiiiiiiiiit.

>>43731371
They can be good people without wanting to play boring games. That's something you don't seem to understand. My meta is hugely welcoming to bew players, but most of them have no interest in playing less then 35 except for helping new players, and for most of them, you can tell they aren't enjoying that game. Then there's the fact that several of the best players in my meta just aren't good at explaining to people why they lose, and how to get better. It doesn't make them a bad meta, but unfortunately it can make drawing in new blood difficult.

would anyone know if it would be possible to order just 1 mini (and it's bits) or 2 from PP directly?

i managed to get a large cryx army but it's missing like 2 styx raiders and a few hornds.

i know i can order the horns but what about 2 styxs raiders bodies and bits to complete them?

>>43733538
Put in a ticket for missing pieces. PP is pretty good about sending replacements free of charge.

>>43731820
Based Ord.

>>43733538
Wait you have the OG Satyxis Raiders?

Post some pics. I haven't seen them in a while!

>>43733806
People need to stop abusing that so they don't stop the service. It's meant for alleviating PP's mistakes, not for getting free bits.

>>43733538
http://store.privateerpress.com/

But sounds like you have the old style Raiders, those are long gone.

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>>43733806
Ok finally inventoried EVERYTHING.

i traded $230 usd for this lot:

WARLOCKS:
Lich Lord Asphyxious (missing left arm)

Skarre1
Skarre2, Queen of the Broken Coast
Wraith Witch Deneghra

solos

pDeneghra
Deneghra2

SOLOS:
The Withershadow Combine

Bane Lord Tartarus
Skarlock Thrall
Pistol Wraiths x2 (variant)
Darragh Wrathe
Captain REngrave
4x Warwitch Siren
Satyxis Raider Captain x2
Necrotech & Scrap thrall
Scrap thrall x3

WARJACKS:
5 defiler jacks (one missing head)

8 deathrippers (biters)
2 ripjaws
Cancerworm

Seether

Deathjack
Stalker
Slayer x2
Reaper

UNITS:
17 x bile thralls

29 (MISSING 1) x Satyxis Raiders
Stayxs Raider Sea Witch (ua)
6x Mechanithralls
10 Banethralls (max unit)
Banetrall UA
10 Satyxis Blood Witches
5x Soulhunters

Did i do good?

if i pick up 1 styx raider captain ua and blood hag for the blood witches and i could go tier 4 with skarre tier 2.

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>>43735582
thanks for the reply .. i'm >>43735589


yea i have 1 unit of the old ones (full) but the one i am missing is from 1 unit of the newer ones. so i'll be good with that. i'll bitz order her.

i took pictures of everything .. like 12 pictures total.

>>43735608
Damn.. Those Raiders remind me of the Thralls a cryx player at my old store fielded.....

We called them "Pajama Thralls".

>>43735838
The ones on the right? i gotta strip them before i fix their whips.

>>43735608
jesus fucking christ
dont post photos taken on that background
good god my eyes are bleeding

>>43735838
i was thinking of stripping all of em and giving them a light blue skin tone.

people who want WMH to be played at higher point values just want it to be some thing its not.. 40k

>>43730682
That's the spirit. I would kindly ask everyone in this thread to take a page out of this guy's book.

>>43735589
>29 (MISSING 1) x Satyxis Raiders
Okay, you will NOT need 30 Satyxis Raiders. Ever. Even if you throw 19 in the trash you still got a really good deal though.

>>43736350
You can have some fun lists with 20.

Decent even. It's Cryx. I ran them for years with random shit and it worked well.

>>43736375
Isn't the UA FA:1? I don't really see them doing much without it. A large part of their survivability and damage output comes from it.

>>43736339
Wat.

Just chillax. Some of aren't as madly in love with this game as you. At least you didn't write a freakin euphoric monologue about how much of a brain boner Warmachine Hordes gives you....so you are at least still better than the forums.

>>43736386

Speedy Reach unit is usually at the very least decent. It's not ridic like a lot of the newer folks expect everything to be nowadays, but they still have CMA and two attacks each. They just become mortal to shooting and AoEs.

>>43736407
You've got it backwards. These threads are approaching the same level of shit as the PP forums. There's just constant useless whining and little else. It's nice to see someone actually enjoying the game. Now call me euphoric and all those other buzzwords you saved up, but it will not change a thing. That anon has it figured out and you're just a bitter piece of shit.

>>43736455
You enjoy the game. I enjoy the game. We all enjoy the game.

Why else would we be here?

Some of us aren't one hundred percent happy with the game in its current state, this is fine. This is normal. This is how things go once something grows for as long as Warmachine has. Some of us are more bitter with the direction things are going than others, the anonymity helps some express that bitterness without fear of reprisal. I still think the game is fine.

The euphoric comment was about some dude in the forum that responded in a verbose and bombastic manner over why he sometimes gets upset over a game of army dudes. This being the internet I can't tell if he was being serious or not.

>>43736386
>Isn't the UA FA:1?
Yes, just Skarre 2 tier list allows second.

>>43736611
Skarre 2 also grants them fearless. Making their inevibaturr casualties less of an issue.

>>43736350
But don't you want to see a warcaster die of the feedback ability when 30 of em attack a collosal? (i know you can't get 30 of em in melee with a collosal.)


>>43736350
Sea Wich will grant them force barrier +2 def vs ranged and immunity from blast damage. since in tier 2 units can have these that's alot of survivability


the blood hag will blood shadow the blood witches so that's a 1 turn no dammage no constant effects.

all the raiders have feedback. 1 dmg to warcaster controlling that jack.

tier4 gives me:

t1:
Satyxis raiders become FA U. FA of satyxis raider captain solos increased by 1 for every raider unit included (so could take 3)

t2:
free attachment for satyxis raiders doesn't count towards limit.

t3:
satyxis models/units gain stealth 1st turn
(YAAY MORE SURVIVABILTIY. THAT'S 2 TURNS MY UNITS AREN'T BEING BLOWN TO SHIT)

t4
extend deployment zone 2" .. let's get those fast moving models into melee faster..

I am really thinking of trying that out.

metal dawnguard sents on mininarket clearance

>>43736455
Approaching
Ha

>>43738304
I'd get those if I were in the US. I don't even play elves.

>>43716321
Remove huge bases
Delete theme forcess

>>43716321
Make Vanguard as follows:

Have 1 ADR caster -> his list gets 10p specialists

Have 2 ADR casters -> both lists get 20p specialists

>>43738488
So go back to 2011? How boring

Trolls touch you in a bad place?

>>43738594
At least in 2011 we had counter play... Though we saw even less Jacks then.

Also don't even bring up Trolls. They are ruining theme lists for everyone. Some of us liked the themes before Trolls got their Broken shit. :(

>>43738658
>Some of us liked the themes before Trolls got their Broken shit
You mean earlier this year? Bradigus was ruining everything before Trolls became a thing.

And sure, we can go back to 2011 where instead of armor spam you just had crazy defense skew and very few answers for that.

Also, Cryx is even stronger than they are now, and Steamroller has awesome radial scenarios.

>>43738686
>remove huge bases
>go back to 2011
These two things are not the same. There are plenty of answers for high DEF skews that don't center on colossals now aren't there?

>>43738506
don't bother he's a either a retard or troll

>>43738686
We had answers and counter play. PP just tuned the infantry hate to eleven and then added colossals to force heavy hitters. PP kind of over corrected... Leading to the shitshow we have today

You guys had Runes since forever. Bradigus is also dumb alongside machinations, and now everyone looks at their new warlock or themeforce with bated breath every book release to see if their faction got anything as broken.

Also Troll players are probably some of the most entitled fucks I've ever met on the planet!
"We deserve broken shit! You can't nerf us!!"

Man at least when I played Lich Lord Asphyxious I admitted my shit was broken.

>>43738863
>Citation needed
Colossals killed the defense skew infantry machine game. What new releases since 2011 are you referring to?

>>43738488
i have a better idea.

GIT GUD.

>>43738943
You clearly do not play Trolls. Go play as the worst faction in the game for nine years and then we can talk about Trolls finally getting good stuff and wining events.

>>43738943
>We had answers and counter play.
Sure, if you played Cryx or Cygnar. Everyone else was miserable and couldn't win games.

Go fuck off back to 2011 if you can't handle a more balanced playing field.

>>43738961
You guys were the worst in Prime. Ever since MKII you guys have been getting your cock sucked by PP.

Admit it.

>>43738975
The only addition is circle and trolls. Everyone else is miserable.

Also Cryx and Cygnar never went away...we have to deal with the old shit alongside the newcomers... Granted this only matters in competitive play. Something I no longer partake in because of this shit.

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>>43716321
HERE IS AN ORIGINAL IDEA... (see pic)

>>43738943
Sometimes I wish they would unnerf his feat, if only because it makes list building a little more flexible

>>43739004
Wait is this entire fucking thread just two fucks going at it?


>dead game

>>43738985
>Admit it.
We've been getting good stuff yeah, I'm not arguing that. I'm saying it wasn't until 2012 that Trolls won an event and 2015 is the first time in the history of the game that the faction could be considered something to prepare for. The faction's dominance, if you can call it that, is a new thing and the theme list everyone loves to bitch about only showed up on the scene this year. EE has only been showing in tournaments for 9 months.

Unlike say, Cryx, which has been dominant for pretty much forever. Even after getting nerfed

>>43739018
nah it's just some autist that probably got banned from the pp forums for speding 99% of his post crying about how imba everyone is but him and decided to start shiptosting here. well him and a few trolls. but the trolls do have a point. 20 pts adr is standard when you vanguard but he's like but i'm casual... (so play casualgames and shut the fuck up) who gives a shit about what casual games armies are changed ect.

>>43739018
There's like three people in the thread right now

>>43739042

Yeah I think no one cares about Vanguard... Well at least before the latest roster got released.

I think people might actually take it now.
Also I was under the impression that way only Masters only packet... I don't recall Vanguard explained in the 2015 Steamroller.

>>43739042
Also no one gets banned for complaining on the PP forum or the Cygnar/Troll/Khador forums wouldn't exist. :P

It's only if you pull a personal attack against the company or people that they step in.

>>43739226
It's not in regular steamroller but you can always play with it if you want. Nothing prevents you from using the Master's packet, with the exception of ADR the rules are exactly the same

>>43739036
Okay... You understand the frustration though right? The stuff that works against Cryx doesn't work against EE and Runes or Bradigus.

But you still have to deal with the Cryx and Cygnar boogey men.

RPS. You lose.

>>43739261
I get having a hard time playing against certain factions and lists. This why Steamroller and every other format is a multi list format. Are you retarded or do you just not understand how the game works?

>>43739261
Fuck I even forgot Legion.

>>43739284
Retarded? Wat. I think you got someone else.

The problem is I can't cover both matchups without using both list slots
Then I have to play the "will he choose X/Y/Z?"

Picked wrong. Shit ...you lose.

The game is fine, but its easy to not see the problem when your two list pairing is so good you are never up the creek. I'm sure PP will do something...but I don't think they can do anything at this point without people complaining.

>>43739363
What faction are you playing that can't possibly handle Trolls in two list format? Minions?

New change to the game. Any instance of FA: U and FA: 3 is changed to FA: 2.

How does this effect the game?

>>43739390
>>43739390
Oh I can handle Trolls...at the expense at other matchups.

IDC about tourneys lately since I never play in them anymore. I can just see the current meta forcing factions to bring locked into two casters on account of some other faction whereas back then you could have played one targeted list and one all comers just fine.

Getting locked into two lists really sucks, especially when your two list pair isn't the Troll pairing or the Circle/Cryx pairing.

I'm checking out though... I got a job to get back to. Ttyl.

>>43739042
I'm not casual, I thought the 20pt side board (outside of ADR) would be an interesting idea. It could make list chicken less important if both lists could be tooled up depending on the match up.

I only even brought it up to pump some life into the thread, not as a troll but an avenue for discussion

>>43739551
Well I think the troll match up is just anti armor, wich you could drop into cygnar (assuming collosal) and skorne as well

I feel like 3 lists would be pretty nice, becsuse then you could have your anti dudespam, anti armor and 3rd list wich could answer legion or circle

>>43740287
Honestly tho. 20 pt for everyone pretty much kills the whole point of ADR.

Some factions are inheretly weaker than others for other factions/tactics.

example: Skorne has a hard time vs cryx and recursion. But that's pretty much the way it works for them. dudespam can also be a problem.

no amount of 20 point sidebar will fix that period. If you're playing hardcore play your best lists and apply them as best as you can. Sometimes you can win an uphill battle.

In the end you have to accept that some factions have you dead to rights and others you have dead to rights.

stop focusing on power factions and xyz is op because they have more wounds per base, ect. Play the damn game. Getting tired of your faction not being op? start a cryx or troll army this season.

>>43740510
Xerxis2 Basilisk spam is the way to go against Cryx murder all their dudes with tons of sprays

>>43726031

I am very confused on where your're going here.

Deulist lives and dies on thier defense, it keeps them safe and generates attacks. Other than that they like hand weapons, for parry.

Knights have load bearing and cleave, which are useful for heavy armor and great weapons.

You want to take these two things and mix them with gun mage or pistoleer, classes that do a third kind of combat.

What, exactly, are you trying to build? Heavy armor drops your defense, even with load bearing, and knight synergizes poorly with gun classes. What is your concept here?

>>43740510

I've been prompted to a thought;

Some factions are designed to be balanced through their caster, some through their armies.

But armies are not accessed as easily as casters, hence the ADR bandaid. However, if the initial statement was the intention it is a foundational error to have all factions build army lists the same way- you're never going to give a faction a AA caster? Well, then they should seriously consider giving that faction a permanent sideboard allocation (or if they want to put in the effort, caster-by-caster specific sideboard points).

>>43738950
I don't do badly at the local tournaments and I don't have time to travel unfortunately.

I just hate what huge bases did to scenarios, terrain, and the placement game. Especially after the recent errata you absolutely have to bring the hitting power to kill them. Can't do that? Auto lose. It's not as interesting for me as the game was when I started. Even high DEF infantry swarms had solutions besides bringing accurate attacks.

>>43740843
It's not like killing colossals is a problem for any of the factions at this point. Do you just not want to change up your lists?

>>43738944
Incindi
Hex2
X2
Gunmage cavalry
Sacral Vault
Zerkova2
Greylord cavalry
Goreshade3
Houseguard Thane (stealth often goes with high DEF)
Issyria
Thyron
Hunters Grim
Highwaymen
Fire Eaters
Morvahna2
Kromac2
Warp born Alpha
Rotterhorn
Moon hound
Blood Witch
Helga
Zuriel
Lynus & Edrea

>>43740978
It's not that it can't be done, it's that it has to be done. If one of your lists is built to do something else, you basically can't play it.

I felt far better able to wing it into rough matchup in the past, with a couple of egregious exceptions which have been nerfed.

>>43741210
So your mad that the meta has changed and you don't want to have to build to deal with it?

>>43740725
>You want to take these two things and mix them with gun mage or pistoleer
Gun mage or duelist mixed with knight.

>What is your concept here?
Not wanting to be a knight with shitty Def and no other options besides cleave, and furthermore not having to wear armor and carry huge weapons in order to be effective. Most importantly, though, I just chose from the classes I like. I wasn't thinking about optimization.

>>43730506
Considering that's how winterguard were in mkii, yeah khador has hopes

>>43741340
The problem is that you can't just wing it on tough matchups anymore.

The best pairings available to some factions might be able to do it, but that's why they are the best pairings. A bad matchup back then used to mean 60/40 a bad matchup now means 70/30.

It feels pretty shitty if you aren't Trolls/Cryx/Circle.

>>43741659
So what you're really saying is that you can't get away with building crapy lists and having poor last selection. Got it.

Have you considered giting gud? Unless your playing Minions you shouldn't have issues with bad match ups if you're building lists correctly

.... Wat. Do you like winning at list selection or something? I suppose list selection is a skill... But I like tactics games not cards games.

Sounds like you like winning before the minis get moved. How is it gitting gud when PP handed you your win?

Wait wait you are going to say that PP didn't move your minis for you? Your positioning was superior? Of fucking course it was... You had AD!!

I hop Khador gets something that permanently shuts down everything again. Khador brought us MKII maybe they can bring us MKIII.

>>43741901
You have options to deal with the problem. If you choose not to use those options, then it's on you.

List building is part of the game. Git gud.

>>43741901
No, the game shouldn't be won at lost selection, that's what I'm saying. You can't get away with the same shit as before, the game has evolved. You need to build new lists and apply new skills in order to stay on top.

So yes, git gud scrub

>>43741976
The game was never like that pre colossals.

Did everyone hop on within the last year or something?

>>43741755
I have gitten gudden, I just also think that the game is less interesting now that bad match ups are a bigger deal. It's not my win percentage I'm complaining about, it's the fact that many of my wins and losses are very one sided.

The fact that there is basically only one answer to armor skew makes the game less interesting too.

>>43742028
You mean the game never evolved or changed with new releases before colossals? Because that's actually kind of true. After mk2 released not much changed until colossals killed the defense skew.

I don't think you understand the conversation we're having.

The issue anon is having is that he can't build random lists and win games or he loses at list selection. This problem isn't new, it's a thing players actually have to learn and get good at.

The meta has changed though, instead of defense and dude spam we've got high armor and boxes. The game has changed, get on board or fuck off. This isn't new.

>>43742028
To go back to what prompted the discussion: the suggestion wasn't to go back to before colossals, it was to remove colossals. I think the game would be more interesting without a huge block of boxes that you have to chew through because they're pretty much immune to everything that isn't damage.

>>43741460
your trying to do three things at once that all dont work together. its better to go for something like hand weapon+pistol because duelist benefits both, gun mage obviously likes pistol, and then use your class picks for things like expanding your spell options (arcanist) or filling gaps in your defenses.

knights can reach very high defenses if you specialize for it and use something like tailored plate with load-bearing.

a Knight-Duelist with a Duelist's Cape in the off-hand and gunning for high DEF can be 18 to hit in melee, 17 at range while maintaining a decent ARM. Go skilled with a Rapier and pick it as your Virtuoso. Roll 4d6 droplow attack and damage while being a foppish Llaelese refugee with delusions of nobility and insulting everyone who misses you as you poke them as Frenchly as possibly

>>43742143
Enjoy nothing but Cryx and infinite dudes forever I guess. At least now colossals like the Stormwall help keep them honest

>>43742109
>After mk2 released not much changed until colossals killed the defense skew.
There weren't many releases before colossals but after MK2 anyway. Wrath had a bunch of lame warcasters and battle engines, and shitty character warjacks. Domination did shake things up quite a bit but it took people a while to realise how good Vayl2 was and things like that.

Had Gargantuans and Colossals never been introduced the game today would still be very different due to all the amazing releases that came out at the same time and after.

>The issue anon is having is that he can't build random lists and win games or he loses at list selection
Not sure if I'm the anon you're referring to but that is not the case. I have been saying two different but related things. 1) Games that turn into bad matchups (which happens to literally everybody) are less interesting now. 2) High armor is less interesting because it has fewer interactions with other game mechanics/fewer ways to meaningfully bypass it. Colossals are just less interesting to play with or against because the only way to deal with them is massive damage.


I can play the game just fine, but it's less interesting because of those two factors.

>>43742215
I don't get why PP doesn't start nerfing...

They like to add more stuff to balance things out, but the releases come out slow and the the fluff bunnies don't playtest their shit so we end up getting crazy tiers... :(

Is all this negativity because I joked around in the OP?

I dunno what you kids want anymore. I don't like how the game has gone...but not to the point that I want a MKIII. I just want PP to tweak a few things, on a semi large scale.

I want list building to matter less than it does now. I want skews to go away. I want to play my stuff without having to answer a stupid question.

I want a ton of stuff, but I think I'll be waiting for a long time for it.

>>43742215
Yes because the Stormwall totally encourages Cryx to move away from large swarms of dudes that got really hard. The only thing it affects in a big way is those Satyxis jam lists, but changes to scenario have made those much less threatening. Trust me, I play factions without covering fire.

>>43742335
they did start nerfing where have you been

>>43742399
>Same casters as always in WmW
>Theme lists everywhere
>Circle and Troll bullshit everywhere
>Half the models in the game are useless

They haven't nerfed enough yet

>>43742518
Meant this guy >>43742410

>>43742518
Don't forget to add Cryx to the pile.

>>43742150
Thank you anon. Just one question left: Should I go with rapier (POW 2) or dress sword (POW 1, +1 attack modifier)?

So, is Magnus almost done with that army yet? Who's he even going to attack? Is he just waiting for Vinter?

So, re: the grumblings about needing a new edition.

Warmahordes, random fa/tg/guy Casualmachine edition:

- Everything that's not FA: C becomes FA: 1.
- You can ignore this once at 25+ points, twice at 50+
- (These overrule theme list modifiers to FA)
- Weapon Master has "Against models with a larger base size, remove the lowest die."

Would this make the game more fun?

If not, propose another Casualmachine variant.

>>43746405
>Would this make the game more fun?

Not particularly.

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>>43746405
>Would this make the game more fun?

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>>43746405
Pff

>>43746405
It would be interesting for a variant format

>>43746405
>I can't handle weaponmasters
Have you tried screening your warjacks?

>>43746405


Your changes are pretty clumsy since they make all UAs essentially FA:3 at 50 points which is downright moronic and it also makes certain theme lists completely unplayable.

>propose another Casualmachine variant

-you and your opponent pick whatever lists they want to play and have a fun and clean game

There, that's how you play Casualmachine. If you want Casualbabymachine, just ban theme lists as well.

>>43746405
Personally, I don't think it'd be better, but in general

1. Lower the POW of pretty much all melee weapons by 1-2 across the board, a few by more.

2. Make Weaponmaster roll three pick two

3. Buff Powerattacks across the board

That way I can have my fighty wrestling robutts, not my fly across the table and murder each other in one round robutts. Generally, it should be made that any random heavy can survive a full alpha from any other random heavy minus a few exceptions.

Power Attacks are a huge subset of rules that basically never get used for their intended purposes, and that seems so bad. They're the best part of the book in terms of thinking of cool ass fights on the table.

>>43727804
Alright boys lets talk the talk.
Predictions
I would like granted assault

>>43748711
Assault would be great for 2 of the units, yea.

I think the ability to make an additional swing(with it being optional so that Demo Corp don't become even worse) would be excellent as well.

>>43748679

The problem you have with such general changes is that you nerf certain factions way more than you do others. For example if you did it like this, all of the brick lists that are dominating the meta would become that much more powerful, battlegroup heavy lists like Wold War or pVayl/eVayl would kick the shit out of other factions who have shit all to help out a full battlegroup.

Fun fact: you can't balance the game by making a few sweeping changes and then expecting everything to work the way you want it to. You know those robot fights you want? Well pretty much no one will play them when Hordes battlegroups start pushing their shit in.

>>43746405
>- Weapon Master has "Against models with a larger base size, remove the lowest die."

>complains about large base models killing the game and being impossible to kill
>complains about medium base models killing the game and being impossible to kill
>proposes a nerf to the best models to kill these


what the actual fuck...

>>43748783
As I said, I don't think it'd be better for balance, it's just change the nature of the game.

There most certainly needs to be an overhaul to focus as a mechanic or warjacks in general(personally, I think either everyone should get Induction like Convergence, or every faction should get some sort of unique buff for their jacks like Convergence has) in order to even out battlegroup style tactics in Warmachine vs Hordes.

Once again, nothing to do with wider balance, just an issue of game design.

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>>43748907
Its not even a mechanical problem.
PP's massive boner for hordes just forces them to give hordes superior options every chance they get

>>43748976
And there's the troll.

>>43748804
Jeebus Christ. No one will ever accept anything unless it's a full on fucking proof because they are afraid of change...

I kinda understand that....I'm afraid of it too. A new edition brings so many questions. So many worries. I want changes, but a new edition is scary.

My factions might lose the flavor that brought me to it. My infantry selections might not be as strong in the new edition. I'll have to relearn matchups and maybe my my favorite unit will get the Idrian treatment or the Trencher treatment.

The game has grown so much that I am not sure that PP is up to the task of rebalancing a second time. They can barely keep up as is trying to keep things even.

The thing I see as most likely to happen is that the gaming populace burns out. They burn out and start playing what they think is fun or what they think is interesting. Sure they may lose to the guys that really want to win, but at least they are playing with the tools they choose instead of feeling obligated or forced into certain lists.

I dunno. I think the game is unsustainable in its current form, and am cautiously optimistic about the capabilities of Privateer Press to fix this ennui about the game. In the meantime I'm just going to push some minis around and see where things go.

I won't lie and say I welcome a MKIII... But I can't really say that MKII is looking good as is.

>>43706747
Lets build a list

first response gets the faction

>>43749676
Skorne

>>43749754
Skorne

Point value?

>>43749766
50

>>43749766
150

>>43749773
Skorne
50 pts
Caster?

>>43749795
Morghoul2

>>43749795
Hexeris 1

>>43749676
get out of here with your quest bullshit

>>43749815
Fffffffuck

>>43749830
ok

Khador Komrads, in your opinion are there any other casters that I could swap in for butcher3 that are good at amour cracking or running armor cracking units?

>>43749984
Depends on how you want it done. Butcher 3 in particular isn't the best at armor cracking. He's a unique play style that works well compared to other khador janks.

>>43749984
epic irusk with iron fangs or Esorcscha

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So I've been running lists with 20 pressgangers and first mate hawk and it got me thinking...

What is the best '6 points for 10' unit in the game?

>>43750780
Cheating, but McThralls

>>43750780
farrow brigands

>>43750780

It's really hard to determine when you consider that most '6 for 10' units usually have some sort of mandatory UA that bumps them up to 8 points. So if you're looking at best bare bones '6 for 10' units, then Pyg Burrowers.

so does hit squad make emorghoul viable in a competitive scene, or should i just stick to other casters?

>>43751780

Viable? Not really. He is usable now in that theme however, which is a massive step up from before. If you want to play him, then using Hit Squad is at least a way of making sure you're not stuck with a dead caster. If you know your opponents bring lots of AD then his value goes through the roof.

>>43707405
We can't really talk about fluff, partly because no one cares, partly because no one would have a clue what to discuss;
We can't talk about painting because any srs player gets their army commission painted;
We only talk about list building, in which case the answer is either "idklol" or "git gud". Tournament level lists are up on discount games anyway, so just use those.

warmahordes on teeg is very limited. It's limited on the PP forums too.
We could talk fluff (what if) we could talk paint schemes, we could talk house rules.
But who would even give a shit?

Ded gaem? Maybe it is dying. While GW shot itself in the face with age of sigmar, warmahordes seems to be dying of autoerotic asphyxiation.

>>43708010
You're the PG from the previous thread?

I wonder how many PGs actually come to /tg/

>>43748976
and yet, despite your blatant example, Skorne is considered much weaker than Menoth, in fact skorne is currently the weakest real faction.

Shitty newb skorne here. I've only really ever played beast heavy, but have just ordered a lot of infantry and am looking at infantry casters.

The one that caught my eye most is the new Zaal. I had a game with him today, and I found that even with boosting, massed infantry struggle a bit against beasts. Especially the Legion caster with the feat that fully heals her beasts - its not easy to one round a heavy without a heavy of your own.

So I'm wondering, what answers do you guys generally bring with new Zaal to deal with heavies? A heavy of your own? Just overrun with infantry? Light warbeasts? Cataphracts? Or something else perhaps?

I'm also wondering if you guys use Paingivers with this caster. They are cheap souls with useful abilities (reach, 1dmg vs living, 1 fury per hit vs beasts) and if they are useful enough for these qualities it would make taking a heavy instead of another infantry unit a bit of a better choice than it seems currently.

>>43749090
Apparently the MkII playtest was a glorious clusterfuck of fuck.
I will expect no less if there ever is an open beta for the MkIII.

The thing is that it isn't so much a few models that want changing, it's the basic game rules.
Terrain needs to be simplified to be easily playable and make 2d terrain unuseable.
Power attacks need to be simplified
channelling / arc nodes why have 2 different ways of saying the exact same thing? When it's interesting, why not, but this is just stupid.
units need to act like units. currently units are simply much better than WJs and even some WBs
WJs do need to be better, but not by giving them loads of boosts, no.

>>43752060

If you ever played Zaal2 and are struggling to deal with heavier targets, then the answer to your question is that you just need to play Zaal1. I have a lot of experience with both, and about 8 times out of 10 when I play Zaal2 I constantly wish I had Zaal1 on the table instead. If you really want to play Zaal2, then heavily consider taking him in ADR. Specialists really patch up some of his weaknesses with list construction.

That said you shouldn't really be having too much trouble with Legion beasts. Immortals or AGs on feat turn will fucking destroy any Legion or Circle beast they can get their obsidian hands on. Hakaar is a must on him I find, as he will destroy pretty much anything smaller than a colossal with Transference boosts. I've had him single handedly force Imperatus to use Phoenix Protocol when he was at full health at the beginning of Hakaar's activation.

>I'm also wondering if you guys use Paingivers with this caster

I would have a minimum unit just to run beast management and use as a last resort damage buff for your beasts. Generally I find Zaals greatest strength is that he can camp 5-7 fury and be pretty safe at ARM 18-23. This is obviously way better when you don't have to worry about your beasts frenzying next turn, which makes the 2 point investment very worth it.

I want a bad guy in Cygnar, someone whom the player base would show animosity towards due to his underhanded and cruel acts of wars.

Like, he could be the guy that saves Kara Sloan from the Cryxian forces persuing her, but ends up killing the Khadorans under her command in the crossfire, which could easily been avoided.

And his in game mechanics showcase this.
His feat would give grevious wounds to the AOE ranged attacks of friendly faction models in his control area, and enemies that suffer blast damage would suffer -2 speed for one round.

To push this even further, he could have Last Stand in his spell list, to show how he is willing to throw away the lives of his men to ensure victory.

The full spell list could be Arcane Blast, Explosivo, Last Stand, Snipe, and Mirage.
It's a lot of good spells, but a lot of upkeeps to counter that and steal away his focus. And I know that giving Cygnar Apparition on a stick would provide another trencher smoke wall caster, but I don't think that having two casters that can do it is too egregious.

Oh, and maybe Elite Cadre [Trencher]: Ambush would be cool and flavorful. I don't think having trenchers, who can normally AD be able to Ambush instead would be insane, but it would be pretty cool.

>>43752095

This would actually be very easy to work in, as Vinter still has quite the following among the old guard in the Cygnaran nobility.

Give him Sucker! or Sac Pawn to really push it in that this guy is fucking brutal.

>>43749090
WJs have advantages:
>high armor, lots of boxes
>power attacks
>boosting
>multiple attacks
>no moral checks

WJs have drawbacks
>crippled systems
>water
>lack of focus

Warbeasts
Have all those advantages and often 4 even 5 fury. But the don't have any of those drawbacks.
Their equivalent drawback "frenzy" has been pretty much removed from the game via fury management, not only that but the threshold scores are just too high, easy rolls to pass. If threshold was lower that might work.

Infantry
If you look at the stuff in prime you will notice that very few things have multiple attacks, which gave WJs an advantage.
>Infantry has more attacks simply because there are more models, but often they have multiple attacks each in one form or another.
>Infantry got another buff because moral is supposed to apply to them, but most units that are seen on the table are fearless or have a solo/caster that makes them fearless. not only that but the moral system is shit anyway, it's all or nothing, and is a clusterfuck when a model goes out of command range.
>Command range is too big anyway, allowing a unit to spread out and act like 11 solos more than like a unit.
Units are supposed to act like units, if you wanted 11 solos you should be taking 11 solos.
>Infantry is harder to kill than a WJ or WB too, because of unit wide buffs (spells, order, abilities) make them hard to hit or wound, and there's several models spaced out so you can't get them all anyway.
The fluff and the art shows infantry flung about like worthless ragdolls, in the game it is a different story.

All the current changes in the game made by PP are to kill infantrymachine.

>>43752089
I'm super shit at this game - whats Zaal1 bringing thats better than Zaal2? Just seems worse desu, so guessing I'm just not getting it

>>43746405

>- Weapon Master has "Against models with a larger base size, remove the lowest die."

So you want Small Weaponmasters like Paladins of the Wall to be utterly useless against even Trollkin, let alone actual warbeasts?

While Trollkin/Ogrun still get to punch light warbeasts fine?

>>43752095

There's really enough Snipe in Cygnar as it is.

I'd be a gigantic cock and give him Shadow Pack or some other stealth-giver.

>>43752140
weapon master isn't the problem, it's whole units of fearless tough no knockdown high def/stealth weapon masters that are.

>>43752176
I figured Snipe would let the trenchers and commandos use their grenades with the feat without the enemy just walking into them next round. At six inches away, even with the speed debuff, plenty of units, especially the most commonly taken ones, would still be able to engage them.

Then again, mirage already makes them safe from that senario, so Snipe might be necessary.

>>43752290
*might not be necessary.

>>43752290
Nevermind, I'm an idiot, Apparition moves the models before they activate, not after. (During your control phase) It doesn't allow for effective smoke walls or distancing models with short ranged attacks from the enemy.

The problem of the game is that the core book have a set of rules and the game is balanced around those rules.

But now with every new release PP is indirectly erasing those rules.

I mean power attacks before where a nice tactical option and faction like Gators lived and died with them, but with proliferation of Colossals/Garg and new rules Power Attacks are becoming useless.

Then there is the Colossal problem.

I am of the opinion that Colossals ruined the game. Simple as that.

The fact is PP promoted the game as Robot Vs Beast. Then infantry machine was created and PP tried to fix things.

They had 2 option :

1 - Trying to experiment with new way to make Warjack usefull, but that would need alot more time and the game balanced could be compromised;

2 - Create something that mechanicaly (aka rule wise) helped FOC user and could give infantry less impact on the battlefield.

PP choose the second option and so Colossals were born. I can understand them cause it was the safe choice, but in doing that they nullified part of the game.


They simply choose to create a piece that is better suited to use few resource and that have in built defensive mechanism against alot of things that can mess warjack.

Then they decided to continue on this way releasing pieces that hard counter infantry.

That result in the today meta mess. Think to it.

PP tryed to force warjack in the game indirectly. Not making warjack stronger, but making model like Colossals that in fact are not warjack, but totaly another thing better suited to handle FOC.

At the same time PP do nothing to stop infantry power. They just release model that hard counter them.

The result is a meta where i just normal that multi wound infantry dominate.

Cause if infantry is still the better choice, but is becoming easier to be removed you just go for the harder infantry and multi wound are just this Harder Infantry!

>>43752489
Cont.

This naturaly bring to today meta.

First choice is Multi wound if the one you have are good and can be supported.

Otherwise you bring you fancy Colossal or multi wound surrogate list (like Griffon Spam or Bradigus tier).

Horde naturally is the exception cause they use Fury so they have the choice of bringing Beast Heavy list while Warmachine can't bring Warjack Heavy list (outside few exception)

>>43752489

While I might not say that they ruined the game, they do have too many flat immunities.

It would have been better if those various things had less effect, not no effect.

Hi guys,

I'm new to warmachine and hordes and I really like Mordikaar and Despoiler theme and what they do. I plan on starting with a list like that:

System: Hordes
Faction: Skorne
Casters: 1/1
Points: 25/25
Master Tormentor Morghoul (*7pts)
* Cyclops Savage (5pts)
* Archidon (7pts)
* Titan Gladiator (8pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Praetorian Swordsmen (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
* Praetorian Swordsmen Officer & Standard (2pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)

To later convert it into something like that at minimal cost:
System: Hordes
Faction: Skorne
Casters: 1/1
Points: 25/25
Void Seer Mordikaar (*5pts)
* Archidon (7pts)
* Despoiler (10pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Praetorian Swordsmen (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
* Praetorian Swordsmen Officer & Standard (2pts)
Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew (Leader and 1 Grunt) (1pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)

And thus have 2 fun functional lists, later on perhaps to add a Willbreaker and eMakeda with Molik to create myself another fun list.

I chose those lists because I can get PSwords with UA, pMorghoul, TG and 2 Void spirits for a really good price from a guy selling on a forum. (I also really enjoy the aesthetics of all of them and their possible combos, eg. a Sprinting Archidon throwing a warrior unit towards Despoiler to spawn a void and later get away).

I think I'm on the right track, "think", so if any of you could confirm/deny this with arguments I'd appreciate it.

>>43752505
It's actually more like that infantry keep getting better, but their are a limited number of ways to make 'jacks or beasts better, and every faction has almost all of them available now.

This is why you hear people calling for a mk3, what people actually want is for infantry to still be useful without 1-2 of a particular unit being able to charge and mulch a heavy anything, in that light you need to have your eggs in more than one basket.
It's also imo whats making people feel like beasts are just better, the average 'jack/beast only gets a single attack run before someone moves a weaponmaster squad in and kills it, in that light not having to worry about fury aftermath unbalances the two.

Neither need to be stronger, but you do need to feel assured that if you send a jack in swinging you can be reasonably sure it will still be there next turn (double that if it's a heavy).

I mean take an axer vs a charger purely on defensive stats and it just ever so slightly favors the 4 point 'jack over the 6 point troll (oh and the jack can stand by and shoot). There's other factors that justify that extra 2 points sure, but the reasoning is that if you weren't just considering it dead the instant you make contact with the enemy those defensive stats give the charger an edge.
But then a squad of Trollkin champs have more boxes (!), a more distributed damage output than a dire troll, has weaponmaster and could handly deal with a couple of heavies by themselves. for the same cost as one. so the only reason you take the troll is either as a fury battery/animus caddy or to crack hard targets. PP make a bunch of new hard targets and now we have the meta as it is played.

>>43752489
sounds like babby is crying again.
Colossals didn't break the game, u just need to git gud.

FAGGOT.

>>43754445
yea he's probably the aspie retard that started the whole fucking let's make a community FAQ so we can ignore the FAQ PP put out and make up our own game and blame pp if it sucks. (these are usually the gw refugees)

>>43753414
All the things hit too hard.
All the things.
If things didn't hit so hard, then you wouldn't need amazing defensive tech to counter it.

This is what they should have done when moving to MkII:
note that a dude with a sword is POW 8, and WJ wielding a solid steel flail that probably weighs a ton is only POW 12.

on the charge POW 8 is enough to inflict damage on ARM 18, and it will have a good chance to kill any infantry 1 HP dude, even with full plate and shield (ARM16) and still auto kill basic unarmored dudes (arm 11 - 12)

but look at that menoth errants are POW9 weapon masters. bane thralls are pow13 weapon masters (thanks to dark shroud)
when infantry grunts hit that hard, having a bit of armor makes no difference.

and that's one of the problems with the game. POW 16 shouldn't seem pillowfisted, it should be considered pretty damn stronk.

>>43754478
all the 40kids come over and start wanting to change the rules to incorporate their own special snowflake point of view on the game.

LOL they'd probably want to remove caster kill as a victory condition !!!

>>43752133
Feat, better spells, eye laser

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>>43754445
>>43754478
>>43754550

You won guys. Epic ten out of ten responses. We literally can't even respond/retaliate.

I'll go back to playing all the other miniature games I play, which are all inferior to the perfectly balanced and dynamic game of Warmachine.

>>43754627
I'm not one of the people you replied to but why are you wasting your time typing the obvious. My group and I included don't take the game seriously anymore. the enjoy our hobby and just play for fun with privateer press events and custom formats.

there is another shop about a hour away that is "ded surius" about the game. no one plays with a completely painted army there and when steamroller are hosted at my shop, non of us show up. so enjoy the hobby and just enjoy the game as it is.

How balanced would a Merc and Minion only format be assuming the two Merc colossals were the only units cut?

>>43755545
I think you'd see a lot of Cephalyx, but I'm not quite sure how much since I'm not nit a mercs player. Cephalyx are head and shoulders above the others in Armor cracking from what I understand.

>>43755545
Without the colossals minions stomp all over mercs. Maelok is basically a nightmare for any mercenary caster, especially the squishy cephalyx ones. Minions bring several very powerful armor skews such as Maelok Croc Mountain and Ark Ark that are basically uncounterable without colossals as cephalyx are basically helpless vs Maelok. Maelok brings enough armor to force the drudges to adrenaline flood to get any kills and that puts them down in attrition while revived triple posse kill them in handfuls each turn. To make it worse all the key pieces (agitators, unit leaders, possible dominators) get immediately sniped out when Maeloks feat turn comes around. I've played the match up from gator side several times and it's not pretty for mercs. If there's a sacral vault it will allow even easier control of the drudge horde and basically force the cephalyx to commit 1-2 monstrosities into it, making trading up super easy.

And to top it off there's Barnabas whose denial kit shuts down mercs completely with anti-shooting, sacral vault, KD timewalk and being superior in melee and range thanks to swamp pits. Yeah, mercs really want some earthbreaker or galleon to fight back against minions.

>>43756396

Fair enough.

I originally thought about cutting the colossals since Minions didn't really have theirs yet, but if Mercs need them I'm not opposed to letting them back in.

I've been theory crafting with my group on some alternate formats, but it looks like I might have to go back to the drawing board on some of them.

>>43754900
Disregard everything. Post your shredders.

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>>43756537
Blight made it sideways.
Unblighted as follows

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>>43756537
In progress!

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>>43756537

My shredders were some of the earliest models I've painted and are way overdue for a stripping bath, but the rest of my Legion stuff is coming together nicely.

I just need to finish painting my Malifaux crews so I can go back to my Legion stuff.

>>43754900
Be Causal is the most retarded excuse ever conceived.

People just don't understand that if a game is balanced in competitive format is a lot more fun in casual format.

You just hide yourself telling that competitive player don't enjoy the game while what they like of it is not moving miniature around, but the strategic challenge.

Casual player are often a lot worse then competitive players. Cause they use be casual as an excuse for theyr defeat and then start to blame their opponent just because they don't want to put the smaller effort in becoming better at the game.

Then if you think to it WarmaHorde is one of the worst game to be casual.

Think to it you go to your local shop and want to test your Kara Sloan list against another casual Circle player.

You start the game and then note how your list is for 3/4 worthless cause your opponent play beast heavy.

>>43757182
Sure. It can be played casually if everyone else does it.

I've seen some amazing metas on the PNW and Detroit. I've seen some really casual ones in California and New York.

No one is saying that you can't play it casually or competitive exclusively. It's when they mix that we get hurt feelings both ways.

I feel if things got smaller scaled to around 35-40 pts the two might feed better into each other. The comp players will be locked into quicker games to test new ideas and new tech and the casual players get to push their favorite minis around and not feel as disparaged when they face the comp guy because the game was over quicker.

I know from our comp perspective it feels like the casual-ites are hiding behind their weak lists as an excuse, but some genuinely don't have the time to learn to be the very best. Some don't have the funds. There are plenty of reasons that "they refuse to get better".

If they end up complaining about the game... Well that's a problem more easily changed by finding other players or finding a new game.

I'm tired of being the middle ground guy in these. Just remember that we all like the game in one form or another and to respect the player even if you might not respect what they brought to the table(for whatever reason).

>>43757182
>3/4 worthless cause your opponent play beast heavy.
lmao just take aiyanna. massed boostable pow 14s will fuck up even heavies (especially circle heavies)

>>43752063
Well you're a colossal idiot, aren't you?

>make 2d terrain unuseable
Why? Because it makes the game easier sometimes or can you just not handle keeping things simple?

>channelling / arc nodes why have 2 different ways of saying the exact same thing?
Read the rules, having an arc node means you can be channeled through. The arc node exists for Warjacks and systems

>>43758186
>channelling / arc nodes why have 2 different ways of saying the exact same thing?
Because PP's boner for hordes dictated that all hordes armies should be able to ignore castigate

>>43754538
Yeah the fact that ranged weapons actually run the gamut and yet 90% of them are considered useless reinforces that, pow 15 are still rare and yet considered the default for anything to be worth bothering with.

I actually really like the idea someone floated a while back that POW8-10 should just be how non-warnouns do. Any more than that and even without weaponmaster there are still ways to do work well above cost.

I mean hell mcthralls are half a point each and get P+S 15 if they want.

I have the option to get the Convergence All in one kit for around 80 bucks shipped.

How does it play? Is it representative of the faction?

>>43758646

It's got some solid units and one of the best casters in the whole faction.

>>43706747
>Dead Game Edition

>Local Warmahordes players spend months trying to convince me to play
>finally give in, buy battlegroup box
>spend DAYS removing moldlines, fixing pieces that don't fit right
>have to fill out a form and wait because one of the models had 2 left arms
>finally everything is painted, looks sexy
>arrange a game so I can learn to play
>guy doesn't show, doesn't answer his phone
>show up at the FLGS on Warmahordes day hoping someone will teach me to play
>nobody shows up

Why am I doing this again?

>>43757681
I hope you are trolling cause that the proof that you are retarded.

Casual is playing what you want or like not the unit/model that counter your opponent list.

>>43758849
If your list can't crack satyr/ warpwolf levels of armor, then its a poor all comers.


I'm not suggesting list tailoring, and I hopefully think your not suggesting that casuals can just take a random composition and be garunteed decent odds of winning

>>43758792

:( Sorry about that. Is the PG in your area decent?

>>43759242
He's a nice guy, but new to being a PG. Warmahordes just started being a thing around here about 6 months ago, but he's played for much longer.

>>43751702
>Burrowes
>Good
>Mat 4 rat 4
>Victim stats

>>43760049
They're POW 14 and 6 points for 10.

Low MAT's fixed by the Fell Caller and their victim stats don't matter if you can't even shoot at them.

>>43760614

Yeah they require some thought to use, something that newish Troll players might not be used to using....but jeebus christ with a little help those things are destructive.

Their built in delivery mechanic alone is insane.

>>43751702
Press-gangers and Steelhead Halberdiers are both excellent economy units that don't need UAs.

>>43760964

Neither do Nyss Legionnaires, though for them they're primarily to tarpit and feed your Spawning Vessel.

>>43752489
The counter to that argument is simple:

Cryx, regarded as the best faction in the game, is still putting down lists that are 80% of their core book, with almost new new releases showing up.

If the meta had shifted that hard, Cryx couldn't do that.

>>43760864
>>43760614
>Not Warders/10
Burrowers are garbage, they can't even hit defense 12 and 12 is way below average

>>43761144
The new meta favors old cryx stuff.

>>43761656
The meta has always favored old Cryx stuff. It's never not favored Cryx

>>43761564

Is dis nigga serious?

>>43761564
Well Warders kind of invalidate a lot of things.
I mean I can say a lot about Warders but everything has been said by now.

Burrowers used to terrorize a lot of casters/Jacks. The period of invulnerability had a high skill ceiling meaning you nearly always got them where you needed them.

They are still good, just that the meta shifted away from them.

Uhhh honest question here..
Are new players not interested in anything that is not ridiculously good in the meta?

>>43762046
Its mat 7 weapon masters or bust. If not that you need high arm and boxes. Anything else isn't worth playing at best or straight trash at worst

>>43762116
http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2015/05/03/its-official-boxing-is-dead-blog/

>>43762046

>Are new players not interested in anything that is not ridiculously good in the meta?

It's not worth buying expensive units that are only going to be sort of useful at best.