Exalted General /exg/ Holden and Morke are Liars Redux Edition

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Post Realm soldiers, no DBs allowed.

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>>43608354

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>>43608406

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>>43608354

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>>43608418

>>43608416
>>43608406
What is this non-Realm crap?

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>>43608429

>>43607532 #
Excalibur is pretty much the most powerful thing in Nasuverse, right alongside Ea and Avalon, with what being Anti-Anti-World Noble Phantasm. Pretty much when the World's threatened hard enough, it force feeds power through it to defend itself. Ea's on par because it's the Creation/Birth of the World, and Avalon's THE Noble Phantasm for defence because it shifts the protected to the Backside of the World temporarily

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>>43608455

>>43607132
>Why am I surprised that sword beams like he's wanting are a Nasuverse thing
Iduno. I mean, there's a lot of anime that have swordbeams.
But "HOW DO I NASU IN EXALTED" is a very very persistent theme, so that leaps to mind first.

Additionally, in most of them, air slash and the like are a measure of mad skill with the sword, i.e. native charms.
In Nasu it's specifically associated with the artefact, so this reinforces the presumption whenever it's suggested as an Evocation.

>>43607796
Especially if it's widely destructive.

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>>43608476

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>>43608476

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>>43608490

>>43608487
>But "HOW DO I NASU IN EXALTED" is a very very persistent theme, so that leaps to mind first.
But the real question we should be asking is "does this make sense within the setting's thematics?"

It kinda does. Excalibur itself, certainly, but beamswords probably do too.

>>43608476

How well could you do a sniper archer? One who hides and makes a single killing shot?

Or would it be too hard to build up init that way?

>>43608542
Stealth is meant to sort of evade the entire Initiative economy to make a single telling attack. The drawback is that usually you have to enter the economy after that.

>>43608542
Generally, if you hit and the guy hasn't noticed and has no anti surprise or resistance charms, I'd rule that they just die, no damage roll needed.

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>>43608520

>>43608539
FRIGGEN LASER BEAMS doesn't really fit thematics of SWORD OF KINGSHIP though.

>>43608572

Right. How well does it work for actually felling an exalt-tier foe?

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>>43608600
Well of course not, but that's a whole separate problem of not understanding ur-thematics and micro-thematics and the difference between the two.

>>43608616
Terrestrials? Sure, provided they aren't built for surprise reduction.

Celestials? Much harder, since most of them do have/will have surprise minimizers.

But sure, it could take them down sometimes.

>>43608644

Do we have stats yet enough for DBs to say where they fall?

>>43608677
Right up there with Sidereals in fuck those guys list

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>>43608644
>Celestials? Much harder, since most of them do have/will have surprise minimizers.
I agree, way better to poison their everything. They are less likely to have anti-poison charms.
>>43608677
GM fiat.

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>>43608677
We're just assuming, based on past experience, that their basic survival Charms will probably be E2. There's also Morke and Holden's rantings about the subject of the Exalted power spectrum, but yeah. Speculation.

Informed speculation.

We already know Solars can build a reasonable anti-surprise suite at E1. It's likely other Celestials will be able to do the same.

>>43608754
>reasonably anti-surprise
E1 Awareness something Charm that alllows them to know the second anyone threatening comes close to them is reasonably, yeah

>>43608573
That's a really stupid way to approach anything in a crunchy game, anon. The whole point of all the crunch is not having to go "I handwavium this."

>>43609028
Oh I do. That's reasonable. It's not perfect. They could still fail the roll to actually see the assassin, but they'd know it's coming.

>>43608289
What'd they lie about?

>>43609030
But the rules were designed for battle, not for single attacks out of combat environment.
>>43609060
Very very much overhyping.

>>43609060
Did you miss the whole BP/XP debacle, anon?

I mean after Holden basically told everyone to go suck a dick, he tried to walk it back.

But the whole explanation was a house of cards and when it was toppled easily by posters he threw a tantrum and presented the new, less doofy xp rules which completely avoids the point: chargen is the problem, not advancement.

>>43609030
There are times when handwaving things is way to go, no matter how crunchy the game. Besides, 3E's combat system isn't designed to handle situations like the one we're discussing. The system is good, it's fun, but it's meant for something very different from one shot, one kill kind of assassinations.

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Ruby Zenith
Weiss Twilight
Blake Night
Yang Dawn

>>43609234
>still crap

>>43609095
But, that isn't actually lying, that's just being a jerk.

Do you even know what lies are?

aaaaaahhhhh

>>43609073
>Very very much overhyping.

I don't think those were lies so much as arrogance.

>>43609266
Not talking about the part where he was a jerk.

Talking about the part where he lied about the debate being pedagogical rather than mathematically-based. It was a gross attempt to reframe the debate as partisan rather than one with an absolute position (e.g. math is important) and whatever Holden is using as his excuse this week.

That's lying.

Stop lying, anon.

>>43609313
But anon, you lie too.

>>43609295
It took him how many months to input the fucking page XXs?

>>43609313
There's a difference between a developer saying he doesn't care about the argument from a maths point of view and a developer saying the maths are wrong. He was being a rude cunt, but that doesn't make him a liar, anon. Get over yourself.

>>43609313
So... what did I lie about?

I'm serious now, do you not know what lies are?

>>43609332
As a pragmatist I certainly do when it is pragmatic.

>>43609347
Him saying "I don't care about the math" and then shutting the fuck up would be an immense breakthrough in the whole PR problem of being Holden. He takes it further, attempting to reframe what is fundamentally a basic mathematical function that people keep telling him about into a partisan war between him and the truth.

>>43609367
You seem to be the one having trouble with the nature of lies.

>>43609436
>You seem to be the one having trouble with the nature of lies.

You seem to be avoiding the question pretty hard...

>>43609436
His argument was that without virtues and willpower to magnify the amount of potential Exp lost through chargen, combined with a system that no longer requires rigid powerbuilding to make a character who will survive the first combat, the ease of chargen with BP and distributing preselected groups of dots outweighs lost EXP.

You can disagree; and I do, but that isn't lying. Get the fuck over yourself, anon.

>>43609436
>>43609483

You see anon, saying a statement that you disagree with, or is merely incorrect, is not actually a lie. I hope this was illuminating for you.

>>43609503
ok holden

>>43609513
No, I'm Holden, you retard.

He's Vance.

People should just stop with that XP/BP thing. They are not going to change that, not because they don't know math or want to spite everyone. It's because they think it works good enough. It's like people rise this matter every time just to masturbate over devs incompetence and provoke them to response.

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Here's an overview of why people hate RichT, Holde and Morke:
>overhyping
>page XXs taking multiple months
>"great 3d art"
>"organic layout"
>being generally shit at PR and talking to people
>hugboxing, unable to take criticism even when it is polite
and there's probably more, but I haven't been paying attention.

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>>43609483
>His argument was that without virtues and willpower to magnify the amount of potential Exp lost through chargen, combined with a system that no longer requires rigid powerbuilding to make a character who will survive the first combat, the ease of chargen with BP and distributing preselected groups of dots outweighs lost EXP.
But this is mathematically, demonstrably, and anecdotally wrong.

Shit it's probably even empirically wrong, but nobody has really done the research. We do know that there are more people who are unhappy with Exalted 3 than are happy with it, based on posting at rpg.net.

>>43609547
Ok, but where are the lies?

>>43609547
>page XXs taking multiple months
Didn't it take 3-4 weeks and not months? I don't quite remember but months is exaggerating.

>>43609562
That'd be the "great art," "organic layout," and probably a whole lot of other things they said.

Why are you even defending them? Is it because they were just told they are fired?

>>43609568

If Exalted General says page XXs took 3 years, you're supposed to agree, not try and correct it.

>>43609547
Don't ignore the '/exg/ is full of giant whiny babies' element

>>43609557
>We do know that there are more people who are unhappy with Exalted 3 than are happy with it, based on posting at rpg.net.

But the screencap you made doesn't say that, and the regular discussion threads are bigger than the minus threads.

I'm not calling you a liar, mind you, just wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong.

>>43609594
But we kind of are, though.

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>>43609557
>We do know that there are more people who are unhappy with Exalted 3 than are happy with it, based on posting at rpg.net.

>rpg.net represents the sum total of everyone playing Exalted 3.

>>43609604
>But the screencap you made doesn't say that, and the regular discussion threads are bigger than the minus threads.
You may want to get reacquainted with mathematics. It's kind of important.

>>43609575
The art, for the most part, is good and they did say they're getting rid of the poser pieces. And I have no idea what organic layout actually is so I can't say for sure.

>Is it because they were just told they are fired?

Whoah. Where's the source on this?

>>43609650
>Whoah. Where's the source on this?

/exg/'s fantasies.

>>43609628
rpg.net briefly struggled against the complaints about Ex3, but the tide seems to have burst the levees. There's clearly a larger number of people who are disappointed with the game than are happy with it, because that is literally what that post says.

I mean, Holden is very close to losing mod status over this because he is angry that people are still bringing up the immense error that is BP/XP.

>>43609632
What sort of implication am I supposed to be drawing from the percentage of top posters in the minus thread? Because it looks like the general discussion thread is bigger and has proportionately more posters than the minus thread.

Incidentally, please don't try to close down hospitals because you think it'd reduce the number of sick people.

>>43609650
>Whoah. Where's the source on this?
His ass. Doomsayers claim that because of Paradox's involvement OPP is finished. Why? Because they didn't say they aren't.

>>43609670
But the post showed that there were more posters in the general discussion thread than either the minus thread or the plus thread.

>I mean, Holden is very close to losing mod status over this because he is angry that people are still bringing up the immense error that is BP/XP.

Whoah. Where's the source on this?

>>43609670
Nothing in this post has anything to do with the post it's quoting.

So this is a convo I just had on Skype.

My Friend: I'm trying to make a bard in Exalted 3e and I can't even get past the fuckery that is the new skills. I CAN'T GET THE SKILLS TO WORK
>Me: What do you mean?
My Friend: They are fucking stupid! To compose a song is craft, to write a poem (verse) is linguistics, to sing it is Performance. To read is linguistics, but you know what linguistics isn't? Knowing multiple languages. So there go merit points to learning languages
My Friend: I want the nightingale style, but I can't favor martial arts because I need to instead favor brawl, which then gives me favored martial arts, but requires a point in brawl, a skill I will never use, but even then I cannot buy my first charm in martial arts for I need to put another 4 merit points into just unlocking martial arts. I can have Lore 5 and be unable to read if I lack linguistics 1. The only caste that can choose ANY martial charm (outside of war) as a supernal is the dawn caste. Night don't even get archery.
>Me: I think you automatically get one language.
My Friend: you can't, read it
My Friend: Linguistics determines if you can read. you know, like it totally doesn't in the real world because that's not what linguistics is. as written, this is the case
>Me: ...this is a far more serious problem than I had suspected.
My Friend: Again, no GM will run it this way, but that is how it is written. The dawn problem is even worse than it was in 2.0 because now all the martial charms are theirs and no one else's, except for war, which is Zenith. So the only people who will be able to get supernal, which is a big deal, is dawn. eclipse will always be outshone in martial arts compared to a dawn because the dawn can caste brawl, then choose martial arts as a supernal
My Friend: most people will probably gloss over the whole "three different skills TECHNICALLY required to make a song" and say you just need one/the others give you bonus dice. That's what I would do.

Any advice, guys?

>>43609790
You don't use craft for song-writing, you use linguistics for writing the lyrics and performance for the actual process of singing.

Craft would mostly be for making a very pretty looking book of poems with gold embossed covers and so on, at most.

>>43609790

Well first of all he's retarded, because composing a song is absolutely not Craft, and I don't know where he got that.

Similarly, POETRY is absolutely not SONGS so Linguistics is also irrelevant if all he wants to do is sing.

Language explicitly mentions that you start fluent in your native tongue, so he's not even right by RAW.

>The dawn problem is even worse than it was in 2.0 because now all the martial charms are theirs and no one else's, except for war, which is Zenith. So the only people who will be able to get supernal, which is a big deal, is dawn

That is literally the opposite of the Dawn problem.

I think your friend is mentally handicapped.

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>>43609790
Not really, no.

The game is barely mediocre mechanically.

Stuff like this has to be expected.

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>>43609846
>>43609790
>>43609845

Songwriting is actually Craft, all high art is. The actual singing is Performance. Linguistics is not involved.
>ARTISTIC TALENT: LINGUISTICS OR CRAFT?
Linguistics is not the “Art” skill, any more than Investigation is the “Sight” skill. Linguistics does entail a very specific artistic skill—in the ability to produce elegant calligraphy, and the ability to produce, translate, or reproduce very specific aesthetics. Language in itself is a representative of such aesthetics: words evolve from pictograms to ideograms, hieroglyphs form and refine into runes that make up descendent languages thousands of years later. Very specific forms of art are also constructs of language: maps, diagrams, and supplemental illustrations fall into these categories. Where art is concerned, Linguistics mainly provides the ability to produce beautiful and complex letters, and extremely complex, detailed informational illustrations. Drawing one’s Lunar mate gobbling cake, or painting a gorgeous landscape or a portrait of the Circle’s Twilight, are all examples of the Craft Ability.

>My Friend: They are fucking stupid! To compose a song is craft, to write a poem (verse) is linguistics, to sing it is Performance.

Yeah, that's daft, I'd put crafting it under Linguistics too.

>To read is linguistics, but you know what linguistics isn't? Knowing multiple languages. So there go merit points to learning languages

Wah wah fucking wah.

>My Friend: *martial arts bitching*
Broadly legit, although having to put 1 point in Brawl isn't exactly a woeful cost. Still seems pointless and I doubt anything goes wrong if you let someone just Favor Martial Arts directly.

>I can have Lore 5 and be unable to read if I lack linguistics 1.

So? I assume this guy has no actual knowledge of cultures or history if he's making this complaint.

>*dawn bitching*

Nobody fucking cares. He's overstating the impact of Supernal, and is surprised at the idea that Dawn, the fighting caste, are gonna be best at fighting in general.

>*linguistics bitching*
He's a fucking idiot.

>>43609874
page 323

>>43609874
>Language in itself is a representative of such aesthetics: words evolve from pictograms to ideograms, hieroglyphs form and refine into runes that make up descendent languages thousands of years later.

For example, writing songs. The context of that sidebar is specifically towards things like painting and artwork, which would be craft.

>>43609790
>To compose a song is craft
Whait, what? Isn't it just Linguistics? I could argue that without Performance all you could do is writing lyrics without melody but come on.

>I can have Lore 5 and be unable to read if I lack linguistics 1.
That makes sense, actually. Orla tradition and all that, you can totally be that wise shaman guy who can't read anything that most people would call writing but still knows a whole lot of things.

>The only caste that can choose ANY martial charm (outside of war) as a supernal is the dawn caste.
Because they are the Warrior Caste. Your Supernal is the source of your legend and it's only natural that the source of Warrior's legends are martial skills.

>So the only people who will be able to get supernal, which is a big deal, is dawn
Is he implying that you can't take non-martial skill as Supernal?

>>43609874
>Songwriting is actually Craft, all high art is.

Songwriting is not art at all. Not in the way sculpture and painting is; a written song will produce nothing significant on its own.

Performance is the only relevant still for writing and making a song.

>>43609932
Yeah, painting or whatever as Craft is fine. Song writing and making poetry should absolutely be Linguistics.

>>43609845
>>43609846
>You don't use craft for song-writing

See, that's what I thought too, but you actually do.

>That is literally the opposite of the Dawn problem.

I honestly considered putting in (sic) next to that statement, but I didn't have room in the post. In either case, I actually think he meant that the situation of the Dawn caste's martial focus is even worse now that it's at the expense of everyone else rather than just them, or something to that effect.

>>43609874

Thank you.

>>43609935
Um, I disagree but let's just leave it at that.

>>43609790
Use Linguistics for song-writing, Performance for the actual singing, and forget Craft.

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>>43609234
>Oum is gone

>>43609790

>To compose a song is craft

Songs aren't Crafted. they're written. It's Linguistics.

>but requires a point in brawl, a skill I will never use

Suck it up. If you want to be able to fight supernaturally, you'll need to be able to fight naturally at a bare minimum.

>I can have Lore 5 and be unable to read if I lack linguistics 1

What is oral tradition?

>Night don't even get archery

Nights aren't archers.

>The dawn problem is even worse than it was in 2.0

The dawn problem has been by and large solved by letting them take Resistance, Dodge, and Awareness as Caste abilities and not forcing them to take multiple redundant abilities.

>eclipse will always be outshone in martial arts compared to a dawn because the dawn can caste brawl, then choose martial arts as a supernal

The combat caste can outshine other castes in combat due to being the combat caste, if it can't you have the Dawn problem again.

>three different skills TECHNICALLY required to make a song

No you don't. You need two if you're pushing it. Performance will let you freestyle shit on the fly. Linguistics lets you send a written version of the same thing for long ranged social attacks.

Sounds like you're friend is making bad faith readings. If he wants to sing people to death, that's combat, and he should play a Dawn. If he wants to be a bard, that's Performance, so he should play a Zenith. The problems are all in his head.

>>43609985
>See, that's what I thought too, but you actually do.

No, you don't.

The Sidebar >>43609874 posted is simply saying you can't use Linguistics for paintings or sketches.

>>43610018
>Songs aren't Crafted. they're written. It's Linguistics.
Just writing stuff down does not a song make

>>43609985
Still nope. Dawn problem was having forced redundant and unused fighty abilities while having to take actually used supplemental abilities like resistance with Favoured.
In 3e you can take one close combat, one ranged, one defensive, War and Awareness from Caste; get Athletics as favoured and have absolutely everything you want for your asskicking needs while having 4 more favoured picks to get other stuff.

>>43609862
>The game is barely mediocre mechanically.

Whoah. Where's the source on this?

>>43609990
This line of discussion is making me want to try statting up Kvothe. He'd be an incredibly appropriate exalt on account of the third book also taking goddamned forever.

>>43610051
Linguistics is also written eloquence in letters and books.

>>43610051
You'd need Linguistics to write good lyrics, presumably, and Craft to write good music.

It is kind of an enormous mess.

>>43610051
Still using Linguistics though.

Put it this way, if you're writing a novel then the act of binding the book together is Craft. What's actually written, on the pages? That's linguistics.

>>43610071
>You'd need Linguistics to write good lyrics, presumably,
No, you need Linguistics to write eloquent and word-choice lyrics.

That's the only possible way Linguistics would play into songmaking: if you want to be that fag who uses "bourgeoisie" in a song about how the rich are terrible.

>and Craft to write good music.
We literally just went over this.

>>43610071
>and Craft to write good music

No. You don't.

>>43610086
>What's actually written, on the pages? That's linguistics.
The act of writing it is Linguistics, coming up with what to write is Craft

>>43610115
>coming up with what to write is Craft

No it isn't.

Jesus Christ are you just ignoring every single post directed at you?

>>43610134
Yes

>>43610134
Whoah. What's the source on that?

>>43610115
LITERALLY THE DESCRIPTION OF LINGUISTICS IN THE BOOK

>Linguistics is the Ability used to compose works of writing—literary epics, poetic verse, propaganda pamphlets, or even a simple conversational letter.

>>43610154
The phrase is 'where's the source on this' and it's here >>43610165

>>43610165
NO SONGS MENTIONED

>>43610165
So it lets you write the poetry.

The music, however, is still unaccounted for.

>>43610197
That's performance!

>Performance is the Ability of influencing others through creative or artistic displays, covering both traditional forms of artistic expression such as music, dance, and poetry, as well as rhetorical speaking through prepared speeches or oratory

READ THE FUCKING MANUAL

>>43610223
So what you're saying is that songwriting requires more than one Ability?

>>43610240
Yes.

Linguistics to compose it, and Performance to actually perform it.

/For the fourth fucking time/

>>43610240
Much like songwriting in the real world, this would appear to be the case.

>>43610264
Fuck, I spoke hastily.

You use Linguistics to compose or write a song, and Performance to actually sing it worth a damn. There. Done.

>>43609670
Even the minus thread has people being positive about the game and arguing with the critics...

>>43609985
>I actually think he meant that the situation of the Dawn caste's martial focus is even worse now that it's at the expense of everyone else rather than just them, or something to that effect.
How is this supposed to be a problem? Dawns are supposed to be combat-focused. It's their Thing. It's not any other Caste's Thing. No other Caste should be able to be as combat-focused as a Dawn.

>>43610283
...but Linguistics would only cover the lyrics.

The music, arguably, comes from Performance, but that's not really clear because it only specifies the playing of the music. And Craft specifies that it covers all the high arts, and composition of music would typically be considered a high art.

So really, we've made no progress.

>>43610331
And even the critics aren't all people who hate Ex3. Some of them are people who like the game but also have some issues with it, or like it but think it doesn't quite live up to its potential.

>>43610348
All that sidebar says is that is that Linguistics doesn't cover painting or drawing, except as supplements to written documents (such as maps or diagrams for instruction manuals). It does NOT say that Craft covers all the high arts.

I don't know why you're being so obstinate about this.

>>43610434
It's not me, anon. It's the game itself.

Your problem is with the game.

>>43610467
Are you retarded?

I've pretty much laid out exactly what the book says, and so have others, several times now.

It's you, man.

>>43610492
If I wanted to troll you, I'd point out that there is no book, just a pdf.

But I'm not. I'm telling you, quite plainly, that your interpretation is not supported by what is written in the pdf.

>>43609790

Anyways, thank you to everyone who responded. We actually have come to the agreement that it's correct that Craft is not involved and it was a misinterpretation. If it's any consolation, the conversation that followed was:

My Friend: I like how the first few posts are all "I'm an idiot" and then the next lot are "No, this game just sucks"
>Me: You know, you can actually post and get into this.
My Friend: Do I have to XD
>Me: no
My Friend: I prefer watching them judge me
>Me: it's just I don't have a stake in this argument
My Friend: I love how they're all bitching about oral tradition. You know what would be a good way to do that? Put in a flaw that says "illiterate"
>[redacted shit about what I'd do if I were to play 3E]
>Me: Seriously though, disregarding Anons calling you an idiot, which is par for the course on 4chan, do you think they're presenting a good case for why Craft isn't actually involved? Which would honestly be a blessing.
My Friend: Yah, that's fine. I actually only took it from [Other Friend]. [He] and the others insisted it was high art, even though it was dumb. I got halfway through a post on explaining how you don't go from a fucking written tradtiion to an oral one before I decided I don't care. I'm more annoyed with this from a design perspective than any historical one

And that's pretty much that.

>>43610018
>Nights aren't archers.
>The combat caste can outshine other castes in combat (referring to the eclipse being outshone line)

I think he was coming from a past edition perspective. Even after the Dawn solution was implemented, Nights still made ideal archers due to their caste abilities and how strong ranged kiting was in the system. Further, Eclipses have always been presented as the typical designated martial artists due to the themes.

>>43610345

Perhaps we're overestimating the value of supernal, but it'd be nice if the other castes could select any designated combat ability as supernal at all.

>>43610535
>but it'd be nice if the other castes could select any designated combat ability as supernal at all.

Enjoy never seeing a Dawn in your game again.

>>43610510
>ARTISTIC TALENT: LINGUISTICS OR CRAFT?
Linguistics is not the “Art” skill, any more than Investigation is the “Sight” skill. Linguistics does entail a very specific artistic skill—in the ability to produce elegant calligraphy, and the ability to produce, translate, or reproduce very specific aesthetics. Language in itself is a representative of such aesthetics: words evolve from pictograms to ideograms, hieroglyphs form and refine into runes that make up descendent languages thousands of years later.
Very specific forms of art are also constructs of language: maps, diagrams, and supplemental illustrations fall into these categories. Where art is concerned, Linguistics mainly provides the ability to produce beautiful and complex letters, and extremely complex, detailed informational illustrations. Drawing one’s Lunar mate gobbling cake, or painting a gorgeous landscape or a portrait of the Circle’s Twilight, are all examples of the Craft Ability.

There's the entire text of the sidebar. All it says is that you use Craft for paintings and drawings. It does NOT say Craft covers every single art form.

I guess the biggest problem is that the devs used the word "Art" to refer specifically to drawing/painting when in fact the definition is a lot more nebulous and all-encompassing, but please, please understand that you do not need to use Craft on a song.

For the love of god.

>>43610535
>I actually only took it from [Other Friend]. [He] and the others insisted it was high art, even though it was dumb.

The skype friend you are talking to is okay, but I want to beat the living shit out of [Other Friend].

>>43610535
>My Friend: I love how they're all bitching about oral tradition. You know what would be a good way to do that? Put in a flaw that says "illiterate"
Why would this be better than requiring one dot of Linguistics for literacy?

>>43610535
>Perhaps we're overestimating the value of supernal, but it'd be nice if the other castes could select any designated combat ability as supernal at all.
Okay, but why? Dawns are supposed to make the best warriors. Other Castes shouldn't be able to quite equal them, especially not at chargen. Do you have some issue with this?

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>>43610535
>it'd be nice if the other castes could select any designated combat ability as supernal at all.
It would be dumb. Your Caste represents your preferred method of dealing with problems, your area of expertise.
A master swordsman, archer or fighter will always be a Dawn. If you are the best at fighting, you are Dawn. Anything else makes no sense.

>>43610607
>Why would this be better than requiring one dot of Linguistics for literacy?
Yes, it would. So much better it's actually one of the Flaws used in nWoD.

>>43610626
You'd be surprised how few people are literate in bronze age societies, man.

It's not a flaw when it's more commonplace than actual literacy.

>>43610646
You're playing an exceptional person.

Ergo they are the exception.

>>43610663
Not in everything.

>>43610667
Whoah. Where's the source on that?

>>43610663
An exceptional mortal is still a mortal and still baseline, even when, in a game like Exalted, mortals are even more fucked than a blind swordmaster Dawn.

>>43610626
I asked "why would it", not "would it", and "nWoD did it too" is not a valid reason. Besides, WoD and Exalted are very different matters in this regard, because in the modern setting of WoD literacy is the rule and illiteracy is a noteworthy handicap. In most parts of Creation literacy is, presumably, an exception rather than the rule. In WoD illiteracy is a handicap that should be represented as such, while in Creation it's more like the default assumption.

>>43610687
Well for example, if the PC is a mortal, they would not be exceptional in terms of transcending mortality or having awakened essence?

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>>43610687

>>43610663
Therefore it also shouldn't require any investment from my part to kick ass in combat with or without a weapon.

>>43610746
non sequitur

>>43610687
I like how this retard is copying me asking for sources when I did it in response to things like 'the devs were fired' and other nonsense, and he's making it into the next Ok Holden.

This dumb, dumb motherfucker.

>>43610771
Literacy is a noteworthy skill in Creation. If PCs should just have it by default, with no specific investment, because they are 'exceptional', why should other noteworthy skills be treated differently?

>>43610782
Whoah. Where's the source on that?

>>43610687
Stop trying to make this into the next meme.

>>43610782
>I like how this retard is copying me asking for sources when I did it in response to things like 'the devs were fired' and other nonsense, and he's making it into the next Ok Holden.
Should the next thread be called Exalted Memes General? At this point it's starting to feel like more appropriate subject than Exalted General.

>>43610782
Stop false-flagging in an attempt to create a new meme, you incredible faggot.

Since nasushit abound, would True Nine Lives be an allowable E5 evocation for an Artifact 5 Daiklave?
Something something lots of costs, an undodgeable attack for each health box an opponent has without init reset if successful hit?

>>43610877
Fucking die you piece of shit.

>>43610703
While I doubt there is any data that would have enough validity to justify saying "Most people play literate characters", the point is not that playing an illiterate character is bad. The point is that within the justifications of what lore 5 in exalted can do and the fact that you are using it to do engineering, translate old forgotten texts, and in general be a fantastical version of an archaeologist or historian...

It is far more likely that your being illiterate is a plot point specific to your character than an inherent value. We assume our characters, as our avatars, can read as default because we can read. A flaw would make it a conscious decision. Otherwise, most people will just grab one dot in linguistics so as to not worry about it, just like they did with old lore.

It's an irrelevant change because more than likely the people who were going to go lore 5 want to be able to read First Age or even more advanced works.

>>43610896
ok holden

>>43610577

To be perfectly honest on the topic, I wouldn't particularly miss them because I find them to be comparatively vanilla and frankly boring. I recognize the narrative value they offer - the idea of focusing on combat to the exclusion of all other disciplines, the obligatory tale of the warrior who desires to reach the summit of martial prowess, among others. These can be good, enjoyable stories, but the themes an excessive combat focus inspire are ultimately rather single-faceted ones, no matter what warrior's philosophy the character in question follows or what circumstances obstruct their path. I feel these simplistic tales, generally of accumulated effort, guts, and persistence, are highly overrated, even when done exceptionally well.

If I were GMing a 3E game, I certainly wouldn't begrudge a player for being a Dawn, but I can't say I have any love for the caste. This doesn't really matter overall, but it does put the onus on the character concept to be enjoyable even more so than ever.

But that's just my opinion and doesn't account for much at all.

>>43610920

Conveniently I have a similarly low opinion of Twilights for lacking ANY in-universe concept, and being founded far more on twiddling metaphysics and "rules" of the game/Creation, so we balance out.

>>43610348
Literature is a high art you dense motherfucker. And it's handled by -linguistics- not craft. Stop being obtuse. Written arts, and the artistry of the written word is -linguistics-. The creation of a melody as a series of frequencies and notes that constitute a song is performance because it requires you to actually know what the fuck a melody is, and, presumably, tinker with an instrument or voice to figure it out.

Writing those notes down in an attractive way on a sheet would be linguistics. So.

FOR THE FINAL FUCKING TIME.

Performance is the melody, Linguistics is the music, and writing it down in a way that another artist can reproduce the song is Linguistics.

Your friend is a fucking moron.

>>43610920
>To be perfectly honest on the topic, I wouldn't particularly miss them because I find them to be comparatively vanilla and frankly boring.

So vanilla and boring that you desperately want one of their major features for other castes.

On the topic of linguistics being for songs...
I'd like to also point out that composing music has absolutely nothing to do with music.

And if they are going with the idea that there was no distinction between poetry and song in antiquity, then they do a poor job conveying that by calling the skill linguistics. As written, the verse would need to come from linguistics, the performance would need to come from, well, performance...so where does the sheet music come from?

If that's linguistics than the word has no meaning.

And note, I'm not saying that any GM would run it that literally. But as written, making a song is confusing because it is an art form that is comprised of three parts: The arrangements of notes (not an easy thing, ask any recording artist), the composition of verse (very clearly linguistics as written) and then the way it is performed (also clearly performance). So what do you folks say the arrangements of notes count as?

>>43610993
>composing music has absolutely nothing to do with music.

u wot m8

>>43610801

Because, regardless of how exceptional it is throughout Creation as a whole, it's much less exceptional than "Charms make me a demigod whose will I can impose on lesser men as law."

Besides, characters like DBs have an entire education system backing them up. They're exceptional to the general populace, but among DBs themselves, it's not really a big deal at all.

It's just an annoying contrivance at the end of the day, really, and in this mtter the system seems lopsided with regards to what it considers worth being simulationist about and what it doesn't.

>>43610902

I agree completely with this post.

>>43610985
Linguistics is the lyrics and the writing of "sheet music" on the actual paper.

Which by the way, doesn't fucking exist in most cases in creation in all likelihood.

Before the advent of sheet music you learned songs by ear because people had no method of writing out what the fuck the key of D was or listing a series of notes. You just listened and reproduced. If Creation has a codified method of preserving music for future generations to listen to, it's probably either first age tech, or something that exists exclusively in the Realm and major satrapies.

>>43610920
An easy fix would just be to remove the restriction that supernal has to be caste and make it caste or favored. That way you can build a dawn mechanically that conveys themes other than "I'm the fighter." and the other castes could be specialized by choosing one of the martial skills as favored.

I don't know why they thought locking supernal to caste was better than letting it be caste and favored.

>>43610985
Yes, but Craft is specific about it being for high arts. I mean, it's clearly not exclusive, but musical composition isn't literature.

This is an excellent example of why the rules are barely mediocre.

>>43609670
I wish people would bring up the immense error that is Craft instead. I tried bringing it up but was probably took for a troll and ignored.

>>43611010
I meant Linguistics. Not music. My bad.

>>43611059
Oh, it is brought up. Holden has commented only to say that he will not comment.

>>43611051
>Yes, but Craft is specific about it being for high arts.

Where?

>>43611059
Rpg.net is useless, basically.

>>43611044
>That way you can build a dawn mechanically that conveys themes other than "I'm the fighter."

Why are you playing a Dawn Caste if you don't want to be the Fighter? There are four other Castes. Pick one of those. Otherwise, there's a lot of thematic space in the area of Warriors.

>>43611034
Before writing, apprentices to the equivalent of "scholars" in their era had to recite the entirety of the clan's traditions/knowledge/understanding by memory. You weren't allowed to fail.

Ergo, if you grew up in a tribal society in creation with access to first age miracles that were important to your function, but had no concept of written word, and you have Lore 5 (First Age Artifice), then you are your tribe's master of lore, having memorized -in detail- the various methods in which first age technology interacts.

Meaning, in other words, that you are a smart motherfucker, smarter than most other motherfuckers in your field, and you didn't have to fucking learn to write to do it.

>>43611108
>he offers the oral tradition

What, no blowjob?

>>43611051
No. Craft is specific for it being arts such as painting, sculpture, etcetera. In other words, art you can do with a specific tool for a specific purpose. Or, in other words, art that is direct and physical, not abstracted in any way. Even an abstract painting is a physical thing that exists outside of the human ability to abstract it.

Writing (calligraphy and informational diagrams aside, which Linguistics also explicitly covers) is an entirely abstract method of transcribing and granting knowledge.

Music is an even -further- abstraction. It requires no tools to make aside from a person's voice, the melody can be held in memory without any physical signifier of its presence.

This is so explicitly -not- a crafted object that I don't even know where to begin correcting you. Music is plainly not a painting. Music is plainly not a sculpture. Music is music, it is its own thing that stands independent as an art form in that, like Literature it is entirely abstract. It signifies nothing aside from music.

Or in other words, Craft is for physical arts that require actual artifice and tools to make, from a sculpture to a painting to a delicious meal.

Literature is for the art of symbols, making beautiful calligraphy and informational displays that are well drawn, but probably wouldn't be considered art at the level of artifice necessary for a painting. It also lets you assemble words and ideas in text in a way that is beautiful and compelling to the reader.

Assembling a melody in this case falls into neither category neatly. Instead, I would argue it falls into performance.

This is all, by the way, moot point. The argument your friend made was that he couldn't play a bard. This is retarded because a bard does not need to be a songwriter or composer. They can just be fucking -bitching- at singing and freestyling lyrics, music, melody, etcetera. That's obviously performance and he's purposefully trying to complicate things.

Who would be a good mentor to a starting Solar?

>>43611213
This is some impressive mental gymnastics.

Going to have to consider this for a while.

>>43611242
Craft = Physical representative art.
Linguistics = the symbolic and abstract art of language and symbols
Performance = singing like a motherfucker.

That's literally the explicit categories in the book. There were not gymnastics required.

>>43611242
I'm not the guy you're responding to, but why are you so terrifyingly invested in being wrong?

Nowhere in the book does it say Crafts are for high arts, God bless.

>>43611213
>>43611242
Okay, I'm done.

Explain ink, parchment, and quills not being tools.

>>43611223
Any Martial Arts sifu, a Sorcerer, a master of the local courts and politics.

>>43610934

Holy hell, indeed we do. Because I, by default, am a Twilight player!

So this entire conversation basically amounts to
>Twilight: "Dawns are fatuous."
>Dawn: "Twilights are cunts."

>>43610986

Just because an option is powerful and optimal doesn't make it the cornerstone of a character's depth or engagement. What if I want to create a character who is exceptionally strong and practiced in one particular martial discipline, but also has many divergent focuses beyond the Dawn's primary concept of being The Best At Combat In General.

As it stands, I (believe I) can make a dilettante whose interests lie mostly in artistic pursuits who incidentally happens to be a master with the rapier due to its elegance as a weapon, but unless I went Dawn, which would impact the concept quite seriously, I could not take Melee as supernal. It's a somewhat unfortunate conceptual limitation, I think.

>>43611296
>What if I want to create a character who is exceptionally strong and practiced in one particular martial discipline, but also has many divergent focuses beyond the Dawn's primary concept of being The Best At Combat In General.

Then you play a different caste, Favor a combat skill, and buy Charms for it.

This idea that the Supernal is the only thing you're 'exceptionally' good at is retarded and arises from nothing but the nerd impulse to think in binary.

>>43611285
No. Let's all just be done because the Craft Songs guy literally isn't getting it and seems to be incapable of reading posts.

>>43611285
I don't have to. If you're using ink, parchment, and quills to create a beautiful and inspiring sketch portrait intended for artistic purposes, that's craft. Those are your tools. If you're using it to convey ideas via text or drawing an informative map, or doing fancy calligraphy, that's linguistics. Those are explicitly stated functions of the skills.

I don't have to justify them because they are explicitly stated to work that way in the game text.

>>43611108
>tribal society

I don't want to be a savage. I want to join the Guild and participate in the hard trade.

>>43611341
So we're back to the game being poorly written again.

Guess they failed those Linguistics rolls.

>>43611367
Then you probably learned how to read and write at the most basic level, meaning you have a dot in linguistics.

Also,

>implying you need to read to be a trader in the bronze age
>implying salesmanship requires you to write
>laughingmongols.jpg

>>43611369
How many times do people need to quote the text at you, Strength of Many?

Anons, I come to you with a serious question.

If Holden and Morke based part of the game's combat system on professional wrestling, and professional wrestling is clearly racist, does that make Ex3 a clearly racist game?

>>43611369
Coming up with abstractions for abilities isn't bad writing you ponce. One is explicitly stated to be one, the other is explicitly stated to be the other. And for the purposes of not getting into a debate that philosophy majors jerk off over, like asking "what is art, what is writing, what is language, what is, like, song man?" you just say what falls into what category and deal with it. Because there aren't easy answers to those questions.

But there is a really easy answer to "in this imaginary game how do I write a fucking book or paint a portrait or something?"

Linguistics and Craft respectively.

>>43611327
>This idea that the Supernal is the only thing you're 'exceptionally' good at

I'm not saying that, though. I'm saying that this particular means of portraying the character concept, should a player desire to do so, is impossible, and I think it negatively impacts the game. It's not really a big deal at all, though, and as >>43611044 points out, is easily houseruled.

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>>43611417

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>>43611437
Your disrespect for philosophers is noted.

Pic related.

>>43611417
That would be false, because they based the game on Dissidia.

>>43611392

But I want to send and receive letters to my senior partner sempais in Nexus.

>>43611459
>this particular means of portraying the character concept, should a player desire to do so, is impossible

Nerds are the most melodramatic people in the universe.

Either your character is Best At Combat, meaning he has a combat Supernal and is a Dawn, or he's not. Either way he'll be exceptionally good at both combat and X, but there's always going to be one of the two he's better at. There's nothing "impossible" about this concept unless "I want to have my cake and eat it too" is literally the keystone of your concept, in which case, get fucked.

>>43611417
I want some of whatever you've been smoking.

>>43611486
Please stop sulking just because you can't string an argument together.

>>43611296
Uh... no? Is his main thing, his big deal, being the fucking best at rapier fighting? If the answer is yes, then the character would have Exalted as a Dawn Caste. Because his thing was -fighting-. He might have been a fighter who was also a social butterfly. He might have been a fighter who was also a master bureaucrat, or a great scholar.

But ultimately his "thing" was being a master at stabbing the fuck out of people. He was a master duelist first and a scholar second. His concept is "Elegant master duelist."

Likewise if his thing was being a dilettante first, a master of etiquette and poise who could maneuver through any social situation without effort, who also used a rapier to slay his enemies when his honor demanded it... then he was probably an Eclipse caste rather than a Dawn caste.

I want the God of Music to leave.

>>43611492
I mean, they're both on record saying professional wrestling is a huge influence of theirs.

>>43611510
Sure, but what's your opinion on this?

>>43611486
>philosophy major
>has disrespect for philosophers

Gee buddy you sure are bad at this aren't you?

>>43609790
Your friend sounds about as smart as you are.

>>43611588
>reading comprehension 0 dots

>>43611614
I'm sorry. Humorous sarcasm is hard to pick up over the internet. In retrospect this mistake is pretty hilarious though.

>>43611588
>>43611614
>>43611635
>not Linguistics 0 dots

sigh

>>43611777
More like Craft, amirite?

>>43611509
>There's nothing "impossible" about this concept

I said that the concept was possible, merely that this means of portraying the concept is, I feel, unjustifiably impossible.

>>43611556
>Is his main thing, his big deal, being the fucking best at rapier fighting?

Imagine the following character concept.

The dilettante in question's foremost focus is art for the sake of it. His life revolves around it and he treasures beauty more than anything else, although the applause and admiration of those around him is a close second. Among his artistic talents, however, is a particular skill he treasures above all others - fencing. In the discipline of fencing, he wants to be the best, to hone his skills the sharpest they can ever be, and he gets his greatest thrills from making the absolutely perfect moves and sublimely transcendent strikes.

So is he a Dawn or not? If not, why can't he take melee as his supernal ability?

The major divergence when going Dawn at the end of the day is that I can only imagine him taking Awareness/Dodge/Melee and -maybe- Resistance from his caste abilities and I don't think the Dawn anima banner fits him well at all. It's honestly not a big deal, but eh, Holden has stated one of the goals of chargen in 3e was allowing a character to get as close as possible to their desired concept "within reason." I don't find this is hugely unreasonable.

>>43611801
He's a Dawn. Best at fighting. He loves art, but fighting is his favorite.

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>>43611792
Bravo, satan.

>>43611801
>particular skill he treasures above all
>wants to be best at fencing
>highest thrills from making the best moves

How can there be literally any question this guy is a Dawn caste?

>>43611801
Do you really feel like a Dawn can't think of fighting as art? Have you not looked at any of the Japanese works about samurai?

>>43611891
Also, awareness/dodge/melee/resistance/thrown. He wasn't amazing at resistance beforehand, throwing daggers was something of a diversion he happened to be good at.

Socialize, presence, performance favored at least.

Dawn fright flavored as a cold realization this dandy boy can kill you before you have time to blink. The other two things are combat boosters. Makes sense a master swordsman would have them.

>>43611917
This. A Dawn doesn't have to be big derpy barbarian-born smashy guy.

>>43611983
>Dawn fright flavored as a cold realization this dandy boy can kill you before you have time to blink

Oh god, he'd be Archibald Cunningham from Rob Roy as a Dawn. That IS fucking legit terrifying.

>>43611801
Remember, you have to put at least one dot into Favoured skills at chargen, not Caste ones. Those are the things your character has natural aptitude for even if he choses not to develop them. Or maybe later on he find himself similairy enthralled with the art of outrageous throwing tricks.

>>43611417
Professional Wrestling is not racist. People of every ethnic background are welcome to get their asses beat by John Cena.

>>43611801
Is the Dawn who wanted to be an Eclipse really a valid character concept though?

>>43611983
>>43612012

God fucking damn it.

Fine, Anon, you're right. You've convinced me. He's a Dawn.

Now I have a Dawn Caste I could play.

I feel so dirty.

>>43612165
>wasting even one favored/caste ability on something you'll never use

Who's this "Strength of Many" guy people keep bringing up?

>>43605690
Sorry, had to leave shortly after this
http://beachfoxverse.tumblr.com/
He's going alphabetical, on bureaucracy, dont go down after the first one

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>>43612479
He was an obnoxious shit poster named after a Lunar that /tg/ was able to drive away for a while. It became a thing to pretend that any other shitposter was secretly Strength of Many.

Lunarfags are the worst.

>>43612558
Oh god was he the Chris-A-Rose guy on the OP forums who kept saying We when talking about lunars?

>>43612523
>James Van Der Douche

Hey guys I found a really good resource for exalt generation.

http://i.4cdn.org/f/KnowYourUltimateDestiny.swf

Come and tell y us your ultimate destinies!

I AM LAZY ADVOCATE! THE FLYING EMPEROR DESTINED TO WRESTLE WITH SHIT!

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>ITT: 211 posts of pic related

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>>43612674
>NIGGERS

Oh this doesn't bode well.

YOU ARE Emperor Chef THE Flawless Rapist DESTINED TO See Shit

>>43612597
No idea, it just got a lot more civil when he left.

>>43612711
So is that an abyssal with them ghost rape charms and charms in cooking that will fight the god of shit who coincidentally looks and sounds like the The great Mighty poo?

>>43612711
I AM GOLDEN JACK! THE AWE-INSPIRING SHERIFF DESTINED TO CHALLENGE RAPISTS!

So /exg/, what is your character like? Where are they from?

>>43612711
>THE Flawless Rapist
>>43612796
>DESTINED TO CHALLENGE RAPISTS!

So what happens now? In 2e defence > attack, but not so much in 3e

>>43612674
You are PUSSY KILLER the BLOODTHIRSTY ALCHEMIST destined to ENJOY THE UNIVERSE.

I can dig it

>>43612825
She's a pirate from Coral. She really bought in to the whole 'Wealth and Personal Excellence determines your worth' philosophy of her home nation and has been putting it to the test by marauding the high seas, building up her power base until she has enough resources to head home and conquer Azure before forging Coral into the empire its citizens have always dreamed of it being.

>>43612481
The really sad thing is that the sketches behind the charm trees have more technical skill than some of the artists in the book.

Token art bitching out of the way though.

That's fucking fantastic.

>>43612825
He's a former gladiator slave from a Southern city-state who was adopted into a merchant house after winning his freedom in the arena. He's a student of history who is especially fond of legends of the First Age. Even though he looks (and usually acts) like an idiot meathead whose top priorities are fighting dudes, getting paid, drinking brews and getting laid, he always puts family first and his adopted brother is his best friend. All of his studies on First Age lore have mentioned a "City of the Gods," and his goal is to get there and partake of all of its wonders (including fighting ALL the war gods).

>>43612825
Shine of the Blade of Tomorrow (Bladeshine) is the God-Blooded child of Shield of a Different Day of Great Forks. Since she was a child her greatest wish was to be a goddess like her mother and now she's so much more. She's narcisistic and vain and has a god-complex; she thrives on the adoration of the masses and is convinced her duty as a Solar is to be the best goddess Creation has ever had and be adored by the most people in the world. She's also compassionate and chivalrous and brave but every personality trait of hers is really a derivation of her motivation to be praised and adored.

Eclipse, Zenith, Dawn, all three work equally fine.

>>43612481
>http://beachfoxverse.tumblr.com/
The symmetrical dots are stylish but a little confusing since the whole reason to have a Charm Tree is to be able to identiy requisites at a glance.

This work proves how that bullshit the devs gave us via Rich - the Trees wouldn't be necesary because Charm development was horizontal not vertical or some bullshit newspeak like that - is, well, bullshit. There's nothing in the new Charms that makes Trees less desirable or useful than in precious editions.

>>43613138
They did say it was more about page count. All the charm trees added about 50 pages.

>>43613138
You mean Holden and Morke lied?

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>>43613180

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>>43613205
>genuine distress!

>>43613036
>>43613024
>>43612885
Man, those are some pretty great concepts actually.

>>43613235
Well, I had to redeem myself after my first character was some generic mercenary leader dude dumb as a rock and my second was a Lunar catgirl/boy.

>>43612825
Abyssal who in his life was the ruler of a small city-state inside a large shadowland. He inherited the land at a young age because both of his parents died and his only remaining family was his little sister.
The plague came and oh boy what a plague it was. Fatal and extremely virulent, it killed almost everyone in the city and put both him and his sister on their death beds. A Deathlord then offered to him the Black Exaltation in exchange for his life; he was about to tell him to go screw himself but a Neverborn whispered to him that in exchange his sister would be preserved between life and death for as long as he was a champion of death, even beyond the death of Creation. He accepted.
His goal now is to murder and kick into Oblivon absolutely everyone and everything until he and his comatose sister are all that exists before eventually being annihilated together. Meanwhile he administers his city, now largely populated by ghosts like a miniature Thorns, muses poetically about his love sleeping deep in the catacombs under his palace and murders things his Deathlord tells him to.

>>43612479
He was also the canon Lunar with the slave-freeing fetish. Known for being Panther-level retarded.

Makes it even more appropriate for the batshit anti-OPP spergs that cropped up on here once the baker release came out

>>43613889
>Known for being Panther-level retarded.

Yeah because he didn't actually try to HELP the slaves afterward, he just FREED them.

Can a Exalted be old and ugly?

Have a Baba Yaga concept.

>>43614201

Yes.

Just like the scars thing, the return to your prime function works exactly to the degree that the player thinks is cool.

>>43614201

Presumably, if they Exalt at an old age.

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>>43612674
DILDO HUNTER the PERFECT EMPEROR destined to DIE IN BATTLE WITH STDS

>>43614201
Hideous merit is made just for it.

>>43614169
He honestly seems like the sort of fucker who would break the chains binding everyone a slave ship, throw all the sailors overboard, and then expect them to figure it out themselves.

>>43614484
This is now a thing that Panther has done in the canon.

>>43614169
I kind of liked the intro comic with Strength of Many the character, in 2E.

>>43611556

My problem with the Dawn supernal isn't so much that other castes can't have supernal combat (although it does annoy me a bit) - it's all the concepts squeezed out of Dawn because of their monomaniacal focus on weapon abilities.

The nomad warrior who fights from horseback as if he and his mount were one being? Nawp. Gotta either be a ninja or a diplomat, because fightin man can't ride.

The strongman who can can single-handedly demolish fortress walls and chuck huge boulders at people? Nawp. Because apparently Fezzik was a ninja or a priest, not a warrior.

>>43615794
>because fightin man can't ride.

You realize you can like, get ride dots and not make them your supernal, right? Your complaint applies to literally all the Castes. I don't think this is the game for you.

>>43610364

I mainly wanted each charm to do new and exciting things. Instead i got dice tricks.

>mai efficiency!

Still boring as shit

>>43615839

You realize dots, like, aren't equivalent to supernal in ability, right? Maybe logic isn't the game for you.

>>43615990
If you don't want Supernal in a combat ability, then get a different Caste. This is not hard. There is nothing that is stopping you from being an Eclipse Caste warrior, any more than there's anything stopping you from playing a Dawn Caste Diplomat.

Fuck, I'm playing a Dawn Caste courtier right now. You seem to be just whining that you can't have access to other Caste stuff, then trying to pin it as a problem with the game.

>>43615794
And much like 2e, Dawnfags are the only ones that bitch about their caste.

>>43616091

> You seem to be just whining that you can't have access to other Caste stuff, then trying to pin it as a problem with the game.

You seem to be under the impression that certain stuff "belongs" to certain castes due to some inalienable right. Were you pissed off at 3E for Dawns "stealing" Resistance from Zeniths? OMG they just got another Caste's stuff, the bloody whiners! Don't they know that if two castes have the same supernals the game breaks because reasons?!?!

The trade-off for making supernal caste-only is limiting character concepts in exchange for niche protection. There is literally nothing else it does.

Niche protection is stupid anyway, because it should be something dealt with at the group level, rather than the mechanics - if your thief player is going to get butt-hurt if other people are as good at larceny as he is, limit the group to no more than one supernal in each ability.

And just for the record, I can have access to other castes stuff, 'cause our group houseruled supernals to work with favoured abilities. And, some way, somehow, the game didn't implode with jealousy and screams about players stealing each others' stuff.

>>43612825
Maheka Isao is a scion of Gens Maheka, a Dragonblooded family in Lookshy. One of the families in Lookshy that follows some splinter variant of the Immaculate Faith where Solars are looked down on but not actually murdered. The reasons why that splinter variant got to form and stayed around are a bit involved, but not hugely important.
Isao is a Twilight, flighty, easily distracted and intensely curious, and while he'll never actually admit it, really devoted to trying to meet the Lookshy-variant Immaculate Faith ideal of a sort of warrior poet(which the same faith says being a Solar is cheating at and you're disqualified. He tries anyway). Being all of the first half of the previous sentence, he usually tries in sudden bursts of questionable competence. As an example, as part of Lookshy's compulsory military service he was drafted into the Intelligence service, a highly respected position...but rather than as a field agent he basically ended up being an understudy to their version of "Q". He is currently on forced sabbatical after he hit Limit Break while in the labs, and nature took it's course.

His father is currently trying to use his status as a Solar to court other Exalts in the Scavenger Lands, and Isao has thus far solved every problem he has encountered by either building or operating a catapult.

>>43615794
Then either play a different caste or accept that you'll be limited by essence in non-combat abilities because Dawns aren't allowed to have a dozen possible supernals.

In 2e it was endless complaints that the Dawns didn't blow away every other Solar caste at combat, now it's complaints that the Dawns are only blowing away other castes at combat. I swear I'm a half-step from banning the caste entirely, dividing the combat abilities between the remaining castes and writing Dawns out of the fluff.

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>>43609670
>I mean, Holden is very close to losing mod status over this because he is angry that people are still bringing up the immense error that is BP/XP.
I'm curious.

>>43616503

The same argument can be made from other castes, as to why ninja's suck at throwing, or monks don't know their martial arts forms. I was just arguing from Dawn because *EVERYONE ELSE* was arguing from the other castes, complaining about not being able to access Dawn's combat abilities.

The problem isn't not being able to have a dozen supernals, the problem is being forced to pick your caste based on the supernal you want, rather than what actually fits the character concept.

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>>43613696

>>43616594
>rather than what actually fits the character concept.

Your character concept isn't really damaged, though, by picking (for example) Brawl as a Supernal and favoring Athletics as a Fezzik-like Dawn strongman. Take high Strength and a good Athletics score and between your Excellency and even the lowest level Ath charms you could pretty much do just about everything Fezzik does. No Supernal required.

>>43616503
>In 2e it was endless complaints that the Dawns didn't blow away every other Solar caste at combat, now it's complaints that the Dawns are only blowing away other castes at combat

This desu

Seriously, you people will never be fucking satisfied.

"Dawns are too weak! Night's are a better combatant!' to "Dawn's are now the best fighters... But what if I /want/ the Night to be a better combatant?!"

I legit hope that Holden doesn't get fired, and instead gets a raise so he can keep pissing you fucks off. Fuck you guys.Yes I'm salty.

>>43616594
Explain to me exactly how not being a Dawn ruins your concept when the only thing that changes without a combat supernal is the anima banner.

>>43616594
>as to why ninja's suck at throwing,
You heard it here folks: if it isn't your Supernal it isn't worth doing.

Ninjas are DEFINED by their stealth. That they can throw well is not their defining trait.

>or monks don't know their martial arts forms

Gee dawg, maybe that's why literally every Form Charm in the book except 1 is Essence 1?

>>43616503
>>43616666

But aren't Dawns entire thing is "I have godlike combat prowess?" If you want a sneaky Dawn just favour Stealth and pick up Ebon Shadow Style.

>>43616334
>You seem to be under the impression that certain stuff "belongs" to certain castes due to some inalienable right.
The fact that both in universe and out of universe they were created to do specific things seems pretty good evidence for that

>>43616594
>monks don't know their martial arts forms
Something something monks, something something integrity something resilience.
J don't fucking know what something is, I literally just woke up after 3 hours of sleep after a day of doing stuff on 4 hours of sleep
And am going to try and get more, fuck you all, I love you.

>>43616689

"I want to be be epic horse warrior!"
"If you're an epic horseman, you can't belong to the warrior caste"
"Fine, I'm an epic horseman who's technically born to be a diplomat and envoy to the spirit courts, doesn't actually do any of the stuff his caste was allegedly created to do, because they only reason I picked this caste was because I was mechanically obliged to in order to have my epic horseman."

It doesn't stop you from making your characters, it just makes you jam your concept sideways into a caste it doesn't really fit in, just so you can have the appropriate supernal.

We had a Pirate Captain Eclipse in our first game, because the player wanted to supernal Sail (ya, really). Because nothing says "Eclipse" like cannons and keel-hauling.

>>43616944

Are you an epic HORSEMAN or an epic WARRIOR?

One or the other is defining your character, because they are two different Abilities.

If you're a horseman before you're a warrior, yes, you're a traveler and a voyager more than you're a fighter, and you have Supernal Ride. If you're a warrior who rides a horse, you're Dawn.

This "every pirate captain has to have Supernal Sail!" bullshit is founded on the same myth.

Having Charms in an ability, at all, is enough to flag it as a core part of your concept. Supernal is reserved for the absolute pinnacle core of your concept; the part around which everything else revolves.

>>43616944
>We had a Pirate Captain Eclipse in our first game, because the player wanted to supernal Sail (ya, really). Because nothing says "Eclipse" like cannons and keel-hauling.

Eclipses get Presence, Larceny and Socialize. Underhanded leader of men is definitely a pirate thing.

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>>43617009
>Having Charms in an ability, at all, is enough to flag it as a core part of your concept

Pic fucking related.

>>43617038
Yeah. It means you're less Blackbeard and more Stede Bonnet.

>>43617046
Charms are a shit method of building your character concept.


But exalted babbies will defend it because they've had white wolf's cock lodged down their throat way too long

>>43617089
ok strength of many

>>43617101
Ok shill

>>43616944
Travel. Eclipses are travellers, anon. Ride and Sail are travel-related abilities.

>>43612825
Wandering Dragon was one of the apprentices of a Realm Magistrate, who adopted him after his family was murdered by bandits that the Magistrate killed. Kid asked for training, dude said "It's gonna be hard", kid said "I don't care; you're really awesome, and I want to be as awesome as you are one day." So, he journeyed the Realm and Threshold with his master, learning the Realm's legal system, criminal investigation, and Single Point Shining Into The Void Style martial arts, the last of which he quickly mastered to the greatest extent possible by a mortal.

Then, the Scarlet Empress disappeared, and a few years later, Dragonblooded assassins from an unknown house attacked them while they were traveling, killing his master. Then, when they turned to him, he Exalted as a Solar, a member of the Dawn caste, and struck them both down in a single blow. Alas, it was too late to save his master, and he took what few meagre supplies they possessed and fled; shortly afterwards, he found the tomb of his First Age incarnation, the Sword Priest, Eternal Nova, and within it, he found the Solar's orichalcum trenchcoat, and one of his daiklaves: a katana forged of soulsteel wrested from the deepest parts of the Underworld.

Now, he wanders the world, defeating evil-doers, and looking for any evidence of the Scarlet Empress, in the hopes of being able to restore her to power and in so doing restore the Realm to order.

>>43617089
>Charms are a shit method of building your character concept.

>Your vampires Disciplines are a shit method of building your character concept.

>Your mage's Spheres are a shit method of building your character concept.

>Your Shadowrunner's qualities are a shit method of building your character concept.

>>43616944
>"I want to be be epic horse warrior!"
Dawn with favoured Ride??

>>43617160
>implying those systems aren't garbage

Stay mad exalted babby

>>43617237
I bet you think GURPS is a good system.

>>43617237
>Implying there are systems that aren't garbage

>>43617244
I like GURPS, but I wouldn't dare use it for a game like Exalted.

>>43617275
Of course not

You use champions with some streamling and call it day just like in 1e draft before Grabowski decided to be a contrarian faggot in regards to functional design

>>43617145
>shortly afterwards, he found the tomb of his First Age incarnation, the Sword Priest, Eternal Nova

Wait a gosh darn minute...

>>43617275
Yeah, that would be... not playing to the strengths of GURPS as a system. At least not for EXALTED exalted. I bet you could do a damn cool game in a more "historic" than "mythologic" Creation, though, with Exalts being less god-killing titans and more very exceptional people. But it'd be an Exalted inspired low-fantasy game, not Exalted.

>>43617538
Something like that. GURPS is my preferred system for combat that's gritty yet tactical. Especially if it's modern-day soldiering shit. Someday I hope to run a game that heavily rips off of Jagged Alliance with it.

>>43617009

The problem is, there current system has two different mechanical means of nailing your character to its concept, and they frequently don't mesh.

The Caste concepts are general: stuff like "Warrior", "Zealot", "Diplomat", "Sage" or "Sneaky Bastard"

The Supernal concepts are tightly linked to a specific means of expressing that concept: "I am a Diplomat, and the way I express that is writing letters that bend people to my will", or "I am a Diplomat, and the way I express that is being able to quickly and safely travel between centres of power."

The problem is that there are legitimate means of expressing "Warrior" (or Zealot, or Diplomat, or Sage, or Sneaky Bastard) that don't fall into the eight abilities available to those castes. You can't have "Diplomat who expresses that through his iron will and ability to resist temptation", you can't, because the "Diplomat" concept wasn't allocated the "Iron Will" ability as a valid conceptual pairing. Sure, you can take Integrity as favoured and grab some E1 charms in it, but then "Iron Will" is no longer your defining characteristic.

Sure, you can just take the supernal you want, and grab the matching caste by default, but that doesn't change the fact that you're boxed into a caste that doesn't match your theme. All it means is that castes have a negligible impact on the game beyond limiting your choice of supernal.

>>43617661
>You can't have "Diplomat who expresses that through his iron will and ability to resist temptation"

So, a shitty diplomat?

>>43617377
He previous, Second Age incarnation, Wandering Flare, had gotten ganked by the Wyld Hunt shortly beforehand. It turns out that when significant numbers of mortal swordsmen are given visions of you, it's pretty easy for the Wyld Hunt to find you. ;)

>>43617689

Yeah, because diplomats who get seduced by the supernatural beauty of the people they're dealing with are going to be so effective.

>>43617876
Maybe not, but iron will and resistance to tempation aren't really a Diplomat thing, as a defining trait; they're much more of a Priest thing, as a part of the "Wilderness Ascetic" theme the Zeniths have (with an emphasis on the "ascetic" part, in the case of Supernal Integrity).

So I've tapped out for a while, and come to find some Charm trees, and effects have been changed. How does Brawl fare to this? I have a Brawler I might get to use soon, so I'm curious as to an overview of what's new, and what's different.

Is the kamehameha Charm any good?

>>43617923

Eh, if Margaret Thatcher was to Exalt (apart from having to be a Liminal these days) I'm pretty sure her supernal would be integrity.

The thing is, by allocating abilities to castes and saying "you can only pick abilities which are part of what we have determined to be this concepts core themes", you're limiting characters to playing stereotypes. Older editions circumvented this by the caste/favoured split - you had a bunch of abilities that represented your caste, BUT you could also favour ones that just suited your particular character AND they were no less powerful than your caste abilities. Caste was a general shape, with room for customization, not a straitjacket.

>>43618027
Margaret Thatcher would be a Zenith, not an Eclipse. ;)

>>43617876

If the defining thing your ambassador brings to the table is "he's not going to change his mind on virtually anything," you're going to run out of people willing to negotiate you real quick.

>>43617965
There's a Kamehameha charm?

>>43618075
Margaret Thatcher would probably be a Midnight or Moonshadow caste. She was pretty hellbent to destruction, annihilation, sorrow and pain.

>>43618027
It IS looser now.

Now, each caste has 8 abilities to choose from for their caste abilities; now, we have Dawns who can have Awareness, Dodge, Resistance, and the combat abilities of their choice, instead of "I have 5 combat abilities, only one of which I will actually use, and have to spend my 5 favored abilities on shit I actually need to be a combat character, leaving me 1 or 2 favored abilities to spend on anything else."

If I want to be a Night, I can make my caste abilities Ride, Larceny, Socialize, Investigation, and Awareness. I am now playing a Night that, instead of being hard-locked into be-a-sneaky-cunt, can instead schmooze, lie, cheat, and otherwise be a roguish gentleman riding a pale steed instead of a stealthy assassin. Or I could go Dodge, Stealth, Awareness, Athletics, Larceny, and be the prototypical dagger in the night.

If I want to be an Eclipse, I can grab Presence, Socialize, Occult, Bureaucracy, and Linguistics to be an absolute social powerhouse, instead of "The appendix caste we gave the five abilities that don't fit anywhere fucking else."

Supernals are the skill your character is best at, yeah, if you choose to use it at all; but don't think that a potential for increased vertical growth has removed an expanded suite of choices for horizontal growth.

>>43613223
is there anything that can be use to replicate the whole「MENACING」thing? aside from them curling out of your Anima Banner, of course.

>>43619037
Phantom Conjuring Performance

Sidenote: I still think my favorite use of it was the Zenith in a modern game I played with friends using it to conjure up a digital scoreboard for a fight between us and some other fucks, which included a big cat that meowed every time someone got a point(read: got a 2- or 3-point stunt, iirc)

Is it easier now or harder now to hide being an Exalted in 3e? Particularly for a solar

>>43619597
I'd argue yes.

Constant mote regeneration in-combat makes not-flaring easier than ever, especially now that it's 5 peripheral motes spent at once to flare. Carefully managing your mote expenditure now means you can last multiple rounds of combat and spend dozens of motes at E1 without ever leaving Personal Motes.

However, the Obvious tag no longer exists, and thus, your deeds being supernatural to a viewer is something you and your DM have to adjucate.

>>43619723

This, pretty much.

It's much easier to hide being a SOLAR, but now that "Uh yeah the guy who rolls 20 fucking dice and completely obliterates a Dragon-Blood might be kinda suspicious" is in the common sense sphere of the game, hiding being a supernatural requires some actual thought.

>>43619723
Mute keyword does exist however, o anything without it may not be obviously anathemas but is obviously "dat ain't right"

>>43615794
Fezzik was a Zenith, man. Heart of gold, moral center of party, Athletics supernal, Specialty: Perform (rhyme)

>>43619780
Mute as a keyword only means that the motes spent won't contribute to your anima unless you want to, and largely show up in stealthy/social abilities.

If I use Shattering Grasp to tap a house a few times to make it fall apart, people are going to raise eyebrows regardless of whether I muted anima or not.

>>43617661
You're missing the point. If the person's diplomacy is based on integrity and iron will, then they wouldn't have exalted as an Eclipse in the first place. They would have exalted as a Zenith, who is perfectly capable of diplomacy. And who can't Supernal socialize. Unless you're also saying that you should get two Supernals.

>>43619800
Let's also not forget that he was only really good in a fight against crowds; one-on-one against an opponent with actual skill he kind of sucked.

>>43619853
Stealth and Larceny pls
Night needs love too

>>43617661
I think you're wrong in saying that Dawn equates to "Warrior". Anyone can be a warrior. Try "Out of all the people in Creation I am among the best 100 (or so) warriors and I make that as my defining character trait". Warrior works as a broad concept, but then arguably every Solar needs to be a warrior just to survive.
Your Supernal dictates what Caste you're in even in-setting. What happens is that the Sun looks at your diplomat guy and says "Holy shit, that guy's got such an iron will, he'd be perfect for a priest and the diplomacy stuff will help!"
Consider Ranlea of Gem and Harmonious Jade (two 1st-2nd edition characters if you don't know). Both are assassins for hire and both are Solars. Harmonious Jade was better at the sneaky underhanded stuff so she Exalted as Night; Ranlea was better defined at her ability to kill people so she Exalted as Dawn. Both of them probably had a lot of Charms branching in the other direction. Neither of them stopped thinking of themselves as rogues and assassins because they felt like they got the wrong Caste for that.

>>43619999
Anyway it's easy enough to shuffle around Supernals a bit till they fit the needs of your game. Personally I don't know if Eclipse should have Integrity (Eclipse are supposed ot be the people who oil the gears behind the scenes), but I'd like Zenith to have Medicine since traditionally shamans and priests were also medicine men.
I'm perfectly fine though with Dawn having a niche as the only ones who can Supernal combat abilities.

>>43619847
This is orthogonal to the question of distinguishing between obviously supernatural powers and merely 'dubious' actions that could have been supernatural but nobody really knows for sure. That is the question covered by the Obvious tag. And frankly, there is no justification for its removal.

When you summon an arrow of light and sunshine out of thin air, you're doing something obviously supernatural. People will immediately stop to ask questions. When you're simply extraordinarily good at shooting things at extreme range, people will be suspicious, but they won't be able to immediately say 'this one has used his evil Anathema powers!'.

People are trying to overcomplicate a very simple, very basic affair to justify the removal of the Obvious tag. But this isn't a very complicated philosophical question with pros and cons. Not at all.

Some charms are obviously supernatural. Others are not. This is what the Obvious tag is for, for obviously supernatural charms people immediately see as supernatural.

As a ST, I want to know when the players activated a charm that is obviously supernatural. The Obvious tag is useful for me. Its removal was one of the many unjustifiable decision of 3e.

>>43620155
Common sense helps a lot with telling whether something is obviously supernatural or not.

>>43618865

That and we know that Abyssals are not really safe for Miners.

I must admit, I'd have preferred if Supernals were more broad and less deep.

But then, that's just my personal preferences for characters. I prefer 'Very good at 3-4 things' rather than 'Supreme and one thing'.

So I'd have personally gone more for 'Essence +2 with caste abilities' rather than 'essence 5 with one thing'.

But that's personal preference.

>>43620223
I offer players
>default, E5 in one caste ability
>E+2 in 3 caste abilities
>E+1 in 1 caste and 1 favored ability.

>>43619999
>Out of all the people in Creation I am among the best 100 (or so) warriors and I make that as my defining character trait

I mostly agree with what you are saying, but you can take my genius strategists with Mental Primary and War Supernal whose weapon of choice is an army out of the Dawn caste when you pry them from my cold dead hands.

>>43620276

Kinda sucks that War has nothing above Essence 3 so the Supernal falls off fast for it.

>>43620276
I agree, yet I do also like that you can do that with a Zenith now. The God-King can command an army worthy of him and all.

>>43620293
Oh, I completely agree with it being a shared Ability. But I have a personal liking for the counter-intuitive Dawn-whose-not-primarily-a-personal-combatant.

>>43620208
Because finding and reading the charm's information in the book is never a waste of time during combat

>>43610993
>As written, the verse would need to come from linguistics, the performance would need to come from, well, performance...so where does the sheet music come from?

Music was not written down in general in Antiquity. Up until the middle ages where religious music started developping to an alarming rate (and there enough skilled people around the clergy to popularise neumatic systems in the IXth century), music was based almost purely on oral tradition. Even from then on, it was almost always used to facilitate standardising the religious music of the time : music was written down after the act of creation, and you probably wouldn't find many composers that would work primarily on paper.

It's only from the Renaissance onward that written music started evolving toward the form we're used to. Coincidentally, it's also at that time that europe shifted out of modal music and into tonal music.

Here's the thing : most musicians, even brilliant ones, from the time periods that Exalted covers, wouldn't be Mozart, as in, they wouldn't wake up in the morning, grab a quill and piece of paper, and write down a quick quartet before breakfast. They wouldn't produce written-only pieces that they wouldn't actually listen to before the last rehearsal a few weeks from then.


For most musically-oriented PCs, music is approached as it was before Mozart. Writing down the lyrics, or at least, coming up with them in advance, is reasonable, but the music itself isn't written down, it's just thought about a bit (what mode to use, rythm, variations, general structure of the piece) and then played again and again, always a little different, always evolving, depending on who you're playing with and what instruments you have and your mood that day. [1/2]

>>43620409
You don't need a Charm's detailed information to tell if it's Obvious or not. Glowing laser sword? Obvious. Strength enhancer? Obvious if you do something obvious with it. Flying around? Didn't have the obvious keyword in 2e, but it probably should've.

Players should be stating at least enough about their charms to get that kind of information.

Is that guy who was rewriting the charm trees to not be shit still around?

>>43620504
He left. Good thing too, dirty furry

>>43620430
The Mozart-like musician, the dude who shits out written pieces on a day to day basis, and works on a couple big masterpieces a year, the dude that, with an entire orcherstra at his disposal, manages to make every single instrument matter by way of fine distribution of voices, patiently thought through and produced out of a set of techniques and procedures allied with your own personal genius and inspiration... That kind of musician is closer in essence to what Craft and its system attempt to emulate.

So here's what I'd say :
-Most songs, as well as accompanying music, are produced purely through Performance. For new pieces, lyrics are generally thought of in advance but not necessarily written down. Music comes from pure musical practice and skill at improvisation.
-If you're the kind of musician who's texts are important, you're probably gonna want a point of Linguistics just so you can write texts down.
-If you want to play a big Renaissance, Classical or Post-Classical composer (which is a very different experience from playing a Bard-ype character, to tie all of this into >>43609790), you'll probably want to pick up Craft (Musical Composition) and a bit of Linguistics (for magical sheet music) and Lore (tonal music is mathematics, so pick up Heaven Turning Calculations) with your Performance, find yourself a patron, and start producing pieces.

>>43620430
>>43620525
(BTW source on this : I'm a Musicology student yo, this is litterally first year stuff)

>>43620525
Here's what I have to say:
This is an abstract game about sword&sorcery/wuxia/anime superheroes. It's not a musical masterpiece writing simulator.
Music is under Performance so yourol Performance to compose, write and play it.

>>43616565
ok

>>43619961
No. You don't need to be the best at both. Make one your ultra jam and stop whining.

>>43617275

GURPS would be good for Mortals.

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>>43622092
>GURPS would be good for anything, ever

>>43621266
Thing is, playing the Classical composer archetype might be totally appropriate to some games of Exalted. In a Social campaign, playing the royal composer or somesuch is a totally valid thing to do. And even though Craft doesn't get much love, I feel like its philosophy is appropriate to that kind of character.

Then again if you just hate Craft you can just go with just performance too. I'd leave it up to the player.

>>43622190
Maybe use craft mechanics and charms, but use the Performance ability?

>>43622190

Because Craft is the ability of physically making things. You don't create ideas with Craft. Even if you are writing down the notes that it is not the physical writing of the notes that matter but the meaning behind them. Much like you don't write a story using Craft as it says very clearly you use Linguistics.

Really making any song I would do as an Intelligence+Performance roll as your Performance is your skill to appease a crowd. If you come up with a speech on the fly you use Performance because its your thought process in formulating what to say AND how well you say it. While you can stunt what you say you can just as easily say "I incite the crowd" and your roll represents that.

If you really want to though Linguistics also functions as there is a bit of overlap. But I would never use Craft.

>>43622197
>>43622190
Something new to add to C/B/SW overhaul.

The ability to use certain abilities (in this case, Performance) in place of Craft.

>>43622361
>You don't create ideas with Craft.

>what is architecture
>what is cooking
>what is life

>>43622456

>what is architecture

A physical structure

>what is cooking

Changing of one physical object to another.

>what is life

The result of alcohol and a dex+performance roll.