How to fix the fluff of Age of Sigmar?

>>43592623
You can't.

The people who hate it have dropped the game/never picked it up and those who like it, like it.

>>43592623
People would still poke a lot of fun at it, but they wouldn't hate it nearly as much if it didn't come with the baggage of destroying Warhammer Fantasy's official support structure to create.

>>43592623
Scrap it and reboot Warhammer Fantasy. Include Sigmarines as a new faction, if you have to.

By putting it on a fucking planet instead of space god mumbo jumbo.

There's not a single relatable faction in the game and there are no stakes. Sigmar dies, big whoop. Emperor dies in 40k, astronomicon shuts down and imperium shuts down.

>>43592752
If Sigmar dies, then there are no more Stormcast to push back Chaos There will be no leader to guide the forces of Order.

Chaos would rule supreme.

>>43592623

Put it in the garbage.

>>43592623
Give it some

>>43592803
And that's bad why? It's just dickbags fighting other dickbags with no real mortal fate in the balance. Chaos winning in 40k means that immaterial world spills over and that makes agriworlder Jimbob really sad.

In age of sigmar there are no jimbob and magic is already so heavily manifested. Who cares?

I think the biggest issue is just that. There's nothing to care about.

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>>43592623

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>>43593276
What? The Mortal Realms are mostly inhabited by mortal men and women. All mortal men and women save for those living in Azyr have been enslaved by Chaos. Sigmar seek to free them and the Stormcast, who were mortal men who died fighting Chaos, are his means to achieve this.

If Sigmar fails, then there would be nothing stopping Archaon from dragging all the Mortal Realms and everyone on them to the Realm of Chaos where they would suffer eternal damnation.

If you don't know the lore, then don't talk about it.

>>43592623
Remove the bubbles, make it a series of kingdoms on one world or a series of more closely connected worlds, tone down the Stormcast shite but keep the 'Order on the offensive' thing, I like the turnaround.

...

Give Waywatchers the 'sylvaneth' type along with a few other Wood Elf units so the elves can use sneaky-woods because there is no way in hell treepeople and wood elves should be separate factions.

That's it.

>>43593679
The old Warhammer world was a relatable earth-like planet. AoS is a bunch of astral planes and weird bullshit that people can't connect with. Sigmarines don't even look human, they look like weird golden robots. They may as well be necrons for how relatable they are.

>>43592752
It's clearly a solar system type thing

But yeah make it clear on how the realms work I know some of it is so you can make your own area but they're planet size

Show choas back were it once was in fb normal people who just happen to worship chaos
So far tzeentch forces are the only ones that clearly have normal lives and day jobs other than being evil (which once again proves tzeentch is the best god)

Get the gods their own models sigmar rides a giant star dragon find whatever it would go well for archons new ride

But the everqueen is stated to just be normal elf size only made of trees so she should just be that

Okay how have people not realized that AoS and WHFB are apples to oranges with the only similarities between them being the name and purpose of some certain characters?

AoS is fine for what it is. Yes it's fantasy level is much higher than that of WHFB, but that's okay as it isn't trying to go for a more low fantasy world anymore. You want a more grounded low fantasy world go play WHFB. You want high as fuck fantasy play AoS.

AoS has already been described as more micromanagement focused game as WHFB is a more macromanagement focused game.

The only bad thing that happened is that GW stopped supporting WHFB. Otherwise there's nothing wrong with AoS, but it's something totally new and not some shit reboot. I respect GW for that cuz they could've been totally lazy with AoS and copy paste more of WHFB.

Thinking of reboot systems on /tg/, when compared to how much nWoD changed from oWoD, how much D&D 5e changed from 4e and 3.5e, Shadowrun's little venture into the 4e then backtracking on 5e, AoS has brought the largest scale change compared to all of those from its predecessor.

Once it gets more support I personally am looking forward to what AoS can become because very little in wargaming does micromanaging, and AoS' micromanaged style is also like OD&D back in the 70s (though retrospectively) bridging the gap between RPGs and wargaming again.

>>43592623
It was all a dream.

>>43594433

This.

It lacks a Midgard.

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>>43592623
Squat Age of Sigmar and the End Times. Pretend it never happened.

>>43595113
this but keep End times:Nagash

>>43592683

I love AoS but I don't know why they didn't just fork it while continuing with Warhammer Fantasy. Like, "this game is set in an alternate universe where the End Times came." Was WHFB really selling so poorly that they had to pull the plug?

>>43592623
Go back to the end of End Times.
Apply desired changes without destroying it.

Make Sigmarines less main character, more addition to the Empire.
Give Tzeentch some love.
Give the three types of Elf players their identities back.

>>43593679
In Warhammer Fantasy, we knew they existed because we had first person stories.

In Age of Sigmar, civilians and militias exist in the same sense the guys who help Space Marines into their armor do. They exist. End of story.
They don't matter because they don't get box art, stories, and the big narrative defining battles pretend they don't exist except as stakes and skulls.

>>43595270
This. I like my Mortarchs.

>>43595287
No. But GW thinks they have a tight grip on their fans. What they say to investors reflects this.
They assumed everyone who actually buys models would just switch.

How is Age doing? Did they ever actually sell the limited edition books?
How cheap are the starters selling?

>>43595591
>Space Marines
At least astartes always had personalities and charisma despite modern BL take on "muh muhrines are inhuman monsters" unlike fucking sigmarines.

>>43594613
The apple vs orange is an issue when an apple falls from the orange tree and the orange tree explodes.

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>>43595701
The worst part is Sigs have HUGE potential!
Age of Sigmar is just one huge wasted opportunity in every way man.
It's disappointing. I wanted to like it, but I just can't into the fluff, models, or rules.

>>43592623
>How to fix the fluff of Age of Sigmar?
By adding more, I stop by GW from time to time and the one thing telling me not to waste my money and time is there seems to be lore only on two of the factions.
It might be cool in 8 years or whenever they finish releasing the setting but I see no reason to start playing now.

>>43595270
I would rewrite a lot of End Times: Nagash, but I liked having Nagash as a major player.

>>43595849
Yeah, I like the idea of a WHFB War in Heaven. However, GW turned it into a retarded cape story written by Michael Moorcock if he was having a stroke and was on shitty drugs.

>>43595933
Nothing from Khaine is salvagable.
Nagash needs the least amount of rewriting.

Agree? Y/N?

>>43595996
I didn't like Nagash stomping Nehekhara and a lot of characters dying for shock value.

>>43595994
What if AoS was happening in the Warp, during End Times? Like right before the final battle we get this, which is marketed like Horus Heresy is.

The gods of Warhammer send the souls under their command against the Chaos Gods!
Nagash joins in, explaining why he didn't faceroll the fuck out of everything in End Times properly.

>>43596023
Yeah, but nationstomping and Worfing only got worse in Glottkin and Thanquol.

>>43596043
Just have Sigmar doing his thing in the Warp without the End Times.

>>43596071
I would keep Kemmler alive. He was one of the oldest characters in the fluff and have Nagash creep in on Nehekhara instead of just bitchslapping it. I also would ignore the crap about Estalia, Tilea and Kislev being stomped off screen.

>>43596278
Or, y'know, Bretonnia stomped offscreen when last we saw them they were holding their own.

ET was a worse shitfest than cape comics these days.

>>43596341
Yeah, but I liked the idea of Bretonnia having a civil war. Just tone down the damage,

>>43596416
It was after that.

We hear they got their shit together and sent all their Errants down to save the Empire despite Brets and Empire being enemies.

Then we hear nothing in Khaine except confirmation Lileath is the Lady, then find out Bretonnia is 100% gone in the past tense as a throwaway line in Thanquol.

Then we get the most Bret lore in all of End Times, which is finding out Lileath is the Lady and basically just bowing out of the final battle because they're all arsepained their goddess wasn't human!
Seriously, that's the only reason. Nowhere did it ever say the Lady was a creator goddess, or had some special heaven for them. It was just "Lady is good, she gives awesome guys demigod powers" but somehow they still had this fucking emo kid moment fucking off.

They sacrificed half their army for the Empire just because, then shrugged in the final fight for the world!

>>43595996

Khaine was bad, but not so bad.

Some lore that helped to make the Realms feel more concrete and less vague and ethereal.

Wasn't happy to see Archaon make a return, but maybe they'll salvage him.

>>43593777

>because there is no way in hell treepeople and wood elves should be separate factions.

I don't see why not, even in Fantasy there were spirits in Athel Loren who didn't care at all for the Wood Elves.

>>43595287

Because they didn't want a fork or an additional game, they wanted Fantasy to be profitable enough again.

>>43596573

Bretonnia never got its shit together, the civil war and the plague that followed left it utterly devastated.

This was all mentioned in Nagash and the fact that people keep bringing up the skaven with regards to Bretonnia shows they've likely done nothing but swallow 1d4chan swill which is based on events from the BL books and not the actual End Times books themselves. The BL books for the End Times showed themselves to be mostly contradictory messes.

>>43596573
>and basically just bowing out of the final battle because they're all arsepained
that led to the grail knights and abhorash brofisting during the apocalypse, which was probably the only good thing to come out of the later end times books, even if only as part of an author Q/A

>>43595113
Wouldn't be the first time Geedubs hit ye old retcon button. Probably be the first time people were happy about it though.

>>43601123
meant to say "first time the players were happy about it though"

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Remove it.

Declare the whole thing non-canon and kill it. End Warhammer for good.

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>>43596573
Shit like this is why I thought the End Times was crap.

>>43592752

A million times this.

I can tolerate wiping the setting out, having the chaos wastes overtake the entire world and letting a new setting emerge from the ashes. THAT works for me.

>>43594613
>Okay how have people not realized that AoS and WHFB are apples to oranges with the only similarities between them being the name and purpose of some certain characters?

This is true.

But what I wanted was more apples.

I like apples. I like apple sauce. I like apple pies. I like apple juice.

You know what I don't like?

When someone takes my big ol' sack of apples and smashes them in front of me with a hammer. Just smooshes them real good. Grinding them to a pulp.

I hate it when they take this apple pulp, which at least still sort of resembles apple, and then pours orange juice all over it. Then pours orange food dye over the mess. Then throws in chunks of orange peel and rind into the mess.

I hate it when they take this abomination and then try to make an apple out of it. Rolling it in egg and flour and baking it in the hope of making it stick to the shape it once had naturally.

But I REALLY hate when people say 'HEY, IT'S TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM APPLES WHY ARE YOU EVEN COMPARING THEM'.

BECAUSE THEY TORE APART MY APPLES TO MAKE THIS ABORTION ORANGE OUT OF MY MISERY AND TEARS.

THAT'S WHY.

>>43603593
This.


Also could really go for some apples right now.

>>43603593

Someone screen cap this.

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>>43604392
>>43603593

>>43592623
I fear the silly runs too deep. You'd have to fundamentally change the core of the setting and a thousand other changes would inevitably arise.

>>43592623
40k is silly. It glorifies silly, the ridiculousness runs deep all the way to bone. It might have its serious sections, but it is truly a satirical pastiche of tropes, and we love it because of this. The setting is built around it, and it works well.

Fantasy was not silly. It had its humorous areas, but in truth, the setting was completely grim and dark in a way that 40k isn't. What GW tried to do was insert the sillyness and lighthearted tone into a setting which was at complete odds. In order to do it, they destroyed the most interesting parts of the setting and built new things. If judged on their own, these new things are average. Not truly mediocre, just average in a way that thousands of settings are. However, in order to build this new setting, they destroyed something that a lot of people judged as above-average. That's why there's the salt.

You cannot fix it. It is broken beyond repair.

We can no longer go back to how things were, either, as the only thing keeping the setting together was GW canon, and they would rather bankrupt themselves rather than admit they made such a titanic mistake. No doubt there's already fifteen independent groups making a tenth edition ruleset somewhere, but it will not be Fantasy as it always has been.

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>>43605026
>Fantasy was not silly.

can anyone post the ROCKS!

>>43605026
Fantasy was always silly. It was just less over the top about it than 40k.

>>43605247

Back up your comment, I'm genuinely curious.

I mostly agree with what >>43605026 said. 40k started as a satirical take on the sci-fi conventions of the time and developed serious overtones over that. But was always at it's heart a silly setting, with everything trying to be more over-the-top.

Fantasy always felt like the opposite. The setting felt like it was aiming to be a generic D&D sort of setting.

But where D&D is about quests for glory and riches; Fantasy only pretended to be the same. It was about the day-to-day fight for survival in a universe that hates everyone. If a character don't finish each story worse off than when they started it, the author was doing something wrong.

If you found yourself in a Fantasy adventure and not knee-deep in shit then duck, because another load is past due.

That's what Fantasy always felt to me.

>>43605383
>40k started as a satirical take on the sci-fi conventions of the time and developed serious overtones over that
containing satire is not the same as being satire

please read rogue trader

>>43605398

I found it hard to believe any of that was not supposed to be satirical.

>>43592623
Don't remove Warhammer Fantasy, have both.
Age of Sigmar isn't the survivors of the old world, but the offensive Sigmar and co launched on the chaos gods.
As mortals fight in the old world to push back chaos, higher beings fight in the warp to defy the chaos pantheon in their own domain.
Age of Sigmar is overdramatic exalted heroes fighting in heavens and hell, Warhammer Fantasy is (relatively) down to earth strategy.
They work in parallel, with actions on one side affecting the other.

>>43594801
>It lacks a Midgard.

There are mortal holdouts in all of the realms, even flaming shitholes like Aqshy have humans desperately trying to survive there, although all of them are on the brink of extinction thanks to Chaos basically assfucking every realm except Azyr while he diddled around and made the Stormcast. Originally Sigmar directly intervened to stop Chaos, but realized that it would never be enough, so he spread his power out using the Stormcast and the material of the old world's core.

>>43592752
>By putting it on a fucking planet

The realms are all interconnected via realmgates, so go figure there' basically just continents, all with a different strong motif based on the wind they're made of: Fire, Light, Shadow, etc.

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>>43592752
>There's not a single relatable faction in the game and there are no stakes. Sigmar dies, big whoop

Why is it I feel everyone making these statements hasn't read the fluff?

Stormcast are, for all intents and purposes, effectively still human (or whatever race they were, since Stormcasts were taken from all the races). They have past lives that they remember - some all the way back to the old world. Others remember the times in the realms before Chaos. Some have these past lives super-imposed on their current lives. Others can't remember shit and are trying to deal with their identity in the present. It's implied even fewer hold inklings of resentment against Sigmar because they feel like Sigmar is using them, having brainwashed them via reforging into being his own personal army. Some of them were Mages. Some were knights. Some were holy men, and others were akin to Warlords.

Stormcasts still bleed, feel pain, get tired, lose battles, and die. They fucking die in droves in the books, and they fear reforging because most of them fear losing whatever parts of themselves they still remember or have discovered. Not to mention dying hurts a fucking lot - and so does rebirth. Also, if a Stormcast somehow has its soul captured as a part of its death, that death is permanent. IE: If their soul is sucked into the Warp and doesn't go zipping back to Azyr - they are fucking dead forever. And yes this causes the Stormcasts to collectively shit themselves when they realize this can happen

The material the Stormcasts is Sigmarite, the core of the old world. This means they are MADE OF THE OLD WORLD. Which means they, for all intents and purposes, are the most relatable thing in the current fluff TO the old world. PS: That material is finite, and when it's out, there will be some serious fucking problems if Stormcasts can't be reforged.

Even then there are people who hate the reforging process: Nagash in particular.

>>43605600
>Stormcast are, for all intents and purposes, effectively still human (or whatever race they were, since Stormcasts were taken from all the races).

>Stormcast are, for all intents and purposes, effectively still human (or whatever race they were, since Stormcasts were taken from all the races).

I really, really wish that showed on the models. An Elven Stormcast really shouldn't look like a giant burlyman.

>>43605629
That'd require far too much work compared to making one 3D model and posing it slightly differently.

-having a decent human faction that is not the average fantasy human kingdom, full of clichés and standard as fuck a là Warcraft
-actually full of rich lore and stuff
-fuck it, lets do medieval marines vs medieval chaos marines

why.jpg

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>>43603593
>Abortion Orange
Oooooooh b'ahy

>>43606183
>>why.jpg

It doesn't make enough money for GW, is that really hard to figure out?

>>43605563
>>so go figure there' basically just continents.

AFAIK, all realms have their owns sun, moons and even law of nature(?). Continents cannot justify what mortal realms are.

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>>43592623
Its the only way.

>>43605563

With Midgard I meant an Earth-like setting. The realms are very specific* and it is difficult to associate with it.

*Perhaps with the exception of Ghur, which could work well as a default setting actually.

>>43606348
>It doesn't make enough money for GW, is that really hard to figure out?
No, because it was not the lore that drove away players and newcomers.

>>43605600
>The material the Stormcasts is Sigmarite, the core of the old world. This means they are MADE OF THE OLD WORLD. Which means they, for all intents and purposes, are the most relatable thing in the current fluff TO the old world.
This is stupid, this is really stupid.

>some all the way back to the old world.
While this is plain wrong.

>>43608413
Does it really matter? GW want something new and up to date(wow and Marvel's Thor like) setting to attract new customers.

You think that the old world lore are attractive to all new generation?

>>43605563
>The realms are all interconnected via realmgates, so go figure there' basically just continents, all with a different strong motif based on the wind they're made of: Fire, Light, Shadow, etc.

Each is the size of a universe. Near infinite and filled with sub-realms.

>>43592623
Fluff doesn't need fixing, Age of Sigmar just needed point costs.

>>43606102
Which is why we hate it.
The lore matches the models.

>>43608649
If that was true, Sigmar would be a cute girl. There's be three Tyrions, one would be black, one would be a cute girl, and one would be a millionaire.
There'd be an old Malekith and a shota Malekith.
Morathi would be pregnant.
Alarielle would have an Arab princess take over for her while she fought aliens.
Nagash would have saved Warhammer Fantasy by blowing up all the 40k universes.
Skarsnik would be cursed to not ever die until everyone else everywhere has, and only then could he be with Gobbla.

The Chaos Gods wouldn't be all that bad, and would actually be friends with the Incarnates and about as much enemies as any of them are with each other.

Archaon would do absolutely nothing ever except just look evil.

>>43608868
What's so good about the AoS fluff? It seems like it's written for kids.

>>43605026
>but in truth, the setting was completely grim and dark in a way that 40k isn't.
Fantasy was grim, and Fantasy was dark, but until recently it was rarely grimdark. It was, if such a thing can be said about a fantasy world, more grounded than 40k.

Retcon it

>>43609817
Yeah, it also had more bright spots in society than 40k that is very much in the vein of 1984. There was hardship, but people in the Old World was not horribly opressed by the state and conspiracies.

>>43609984
>opressed by the state

Brets were.

And Witch hunters and the Imperial inquisition were very oppressive.

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>>43608649
>You think that the old world lore are attractive to all new generation?
Somehow, I think they could pull it off.

>>43610037
Witchhunters were not at over all of the Empire and the Bretonnian peasants were not treated a whole lot worse than medieval farmers. The knights of Bretonnia are stern, but they are not at the Imperium thought police levels of oppressive.

nun of you have read the books its obviouse even the one saying he knows some thing about AOS is limited.

>>43610136
game of thrones is a soap opera sure it has fantasy but its limited dude its like not a good example. and honestly AOS is probably more like GOT it uses the same minis after all and the stormcast are like nightswatch.

>>43611120
This is true. If the soap opera was stripped away from Game of Thrones it probably wouldn't have gotten a second season.

>>43611120
GW could have marketed their grim and gritty setting better to a public that seems to be enjoying the crap out of aGoT.

>the stormcast are like nightswatch
Aesthetically, they are very different. The Night's Watch are not golden robots that respawn when killed.

>>43611082
If I don't like what I've seen so far, why would I take the time to read the novels?

>>43611192
Yeah, GW's Age of Sigmar art direction seems more geared to the Marvel cinematic audience.

Genuinely, I just don't like how a bunch of groups get the treatment of "they're there, but should not be focused on." I played a mostly cavalry empire army, and they really have no place in this setting since they've been replaced with stormcast as the human shock troopers, and even if they were mentioned, they are inferior to the dudes who just straight up fly. It's having a setting where the balance was kept by the unwieldy nature of magic, then suddenly everyone can take magic roids.

I got it easy, never mind some of the other factions like ogres or skeleton kings who have either just disappeared or been rolled up with their enemies.

I don't hate the stormcast, I've read the books and they are legitimate characters in ways space marines aren't, I just wish they didn't replace my guys.

>>43611884
>Genuinely, I just don't like how a bunch of groups get the treatment of "they're there, but should not be focused on."
To be honest, WHFB wasn't much better with this.
Araby, Tilea, Kislev, Cathay etc... didn't really get any love.

>>43611120
It's this: >>43611192.

If the grim fantasy soap opera can be popular enough to make it onto the cover of Sports Illustrated (Not known for its overlap with the fantasy or soap opera demographics.) Then it's GW's fault that they can't figure out a way to market their own grim fantasy series.

>>43605026

Like other Anons, I don't know how you can say that 40k is silly and in the same breath say that Fantasy was dark and serious. Both settings are a blend of the two.

I also really don't get the satirical angle about 40k and think it may stem from the fact that some people just can't admit to themselves that at its core humanity is shit. A lot of the bad shit about the Imperium is mostly stuff that has happened or is currently happening, just on a bigger scale. Hive worlds for example are basically China without people who give a shit or can do anything about the treatment of people or the environmental damage that is being done for the sake of humanity's needs.

I think one of the BL authors nailed it on the head when they said that 40k was supposed to be a view of the future where things either didn't get better or actually got worse, in contrast to almost utopian vision presented by something such as Star Trek.

>>43605332

We save those for when that very special poster shows up.

>>43609645

It is.

>>43612057
Kingdom of Ind, Nippon, The Hinterlands of Khuresh, Kingdoms of Ind, the Dragon Isles, the Lost Isles of Elithis, The Southlands.

Fuck, even the New World, Albion, Southern Chaos Wastes and the Dark Lands were only really touched upon.

>>43592623
A point system would be a nice start.

>>43603593
Well if you don't like oranges, get the fuck away from oranges and have your apples. Sure your apples won't get new recipes, but you can still enjoy the sauces, pies, and juices already made.

You call it an abortion orange but what do you know about oranges you're an apples guy.

>>43605484
This, though I would rather the two be completely different universes at this point.

>>43605629
No other race looks like giant Burlyman. The Stormcast are made in a singular image where what their past race in life doesn't matter.

>>43606183
>medieval marines vs medieval chaos marines
Anyone who says this has no fucking clue about the new lore and fluff. Ignorant rabble.

>>43609645
This is some edgelord bullshit here. Higher fantasy level doesn't equate to things being made for kids. In fact, due to AoS being less grounded, it's hinting towards having more complex ideas similar to Planescape.

>>43611082
Pretty much the entire topic is this.

>>43611219
Well, if your reasons for disliking AoS are like the guys I replied to above, they are illogical and don't make sense as they are either based off wrong info (le Stormcast and Bloodbound are fantasy Marines meme) or purely in the realm of opinion but represented as facts (more grounded low fantasy is objectively better than higher fantasy when both are different and do different things). There is one valid reason hate and that is that WHFB has been completely discontinued, but that's hatred that should be directed over those at GW who made that decision not AoS.

I reckon GW got rid of fantasy so people will miss it and then will bring it back in a couple years. People will buy a fuck ton of it because of nostalgia, just like New Coke.

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>>43612865
>This is some edgelord bullshit here. Higher fantasy level doesn't equate to things being made for kids. In fact, due to AoS being less grounded, it's hinting towards having more complex ideas similar to Planescape.

I'm not convinced. From what I have seen of it the entire thing seems to suffer greater for trying to have an active narrative with highly predictable plot points and black and white morales.

That's typical for kids stuff.

>>43612865
>Well if you don't like oranges, get the fuck away from oranges and have your apples. Sure your apples won't get new recipes, but you can still enjoy the sauces, pies, and juices already made.
>You call it an abortion orange but what do you know about oranges you're an apples guy.

I am keeping my apples. I'll go to alternative apple vendors. I'll grow my own fucking apples.

I am just upset that they burned down the apple orchard to plant oranges instead.

>>43612942

...jesus, he's right.

>>43612057
Early 2000s is when GW started putting more focus on them, around the time they scrapped Mordeheim, they just stopped for whatever reason.
>>43612865
>if you don't like it because it doesn't appeal to you it's illogical
Welcome to the world of taste and subjectiveness
That being said, AoS fluff is pretty fucking stupid
>when a stormcast dies he comes back
>skaven have multiplanar tunnels that can go anywhere
>no explanation for what the universe was like and how shit got done they just did
>every single fucking one of the campaigns is the same
>push chaos back
>unexpected reinforcements push 'campaign good guys here' back
>unexpected reinforcements for 'campaign good guys here' push chaos back
The scenarios are neat and well written, but independent of the setting. If you're trying to use the AoS book as actually a good thing you make m e question that you have read it yourself.

>>43613072
I figure Mordheim was never intended to be a permanent thing with GW getting a hold of the LOTR license.

>aos fags blown the fuck out and stop responding
kek

>>43612946
That's cuz the narrative has just started. There's obviously a lot of set up happening. Now I won't make my true conclusion on whether this is gonna actually be good or bad until I see what GW does with this set up.

>>43612986
Fair enough. Both should definitely be planted.

>>43613072
>when a stormcast dies he comes back
Where the fuck were you when Necrons had a similar story?

>skaven have multiplanar tunnels that can go anywhere
Makes sense. Low fantasy Skaven had sewers, high fantasy Skaven have multiplanar tunnels.

>no explanation for what the universe was like and how shit got done they just did
Pretty sure GW didn't have the C'tan vs Old Ones written right as 40k came out either. Give it some time. If it all develops into shit, I'll concede to you guys completely, but it hasn't even developed.

>Chaos stuff, similar scenarios
They are at the moment really pushing the Stormcast vs Chaos (Khorne Bloodbound specifically) to begin with. They are also bringing in Lizard support, too now.

For only being 6-7 months into the damn thing I think GW is doing decent so far. Most wargames when new don't start off with more than two factions anyway.

>>43615178
>comparing to 40k
laffin

>>43615221
Cuz I know 40k better than I know WHFB. My first 40k comparison basically saying that whoop dee doo undead based armies have revival shit, too. Second one basically saying that GW didn't release the reason for the universe being the way it is years into 40k's existence.

>>43613072
>>when a stormcast dies he comes back
Not always, and at great cost to his soul and ultimately his sanity

>>skaven have multiplanar tunnels that can go anywhere
How else did you expect them to get anywhere? Take the fucking realmgate?

>>no explanation for what the universe was like and how shit got done they just did
Everything is explained in the main book, but hey that's cool to bash shit you haven't read

>>every single fucking one of the campaigns is the same
Still bashing shit we haven't read

>>push chaos back
And again

>>unexpected reinforcements push 'campaign good guys here' back
And again

>>unexpected reinforcements for 'campaign good guys here' push chaos back
And again

>>43612946
>From what I have seen of it the entire thing seems to suffer greater for trying to have an active narrative with highly predictable plot points and black and white morales.

I would hit the character limit on this one so next fucking post~

>>43615261
If you can't understand the difference between the undead and their impending doom trope vs the protagonists armies being literally immortal this conversation is going to go nowhere
>>43615310
>Everything is explained in the main book, but hey that's cool to bash shit you haven't read
>still bashing she we haven't read
No, they completely glance over the other two ages and skip straight to Sigmar without even detailing what the fuck was going on and what the universe was like with Chaos in control.
Two fucking ages they glanced over just to skip to Sigmar and friends

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>>43612946
>the entire thing seems to suffer greater for trying to have an active narrative with highly predictable plot points and black and white morales.

Sigmar himself is a questionable entity that is not fucking inheirently "good" any more than the concept of "order" is "good," which is to say that you can still be aligned with Order (Lawful) and not necessarily be Good.

If you read the fluff, Sig spent a significant amount of time wandering around the new realms, ultimately finding the incarnates - most of whom sought to either reclaim their old power, discover their new power, and / or deflect Chaos from the realms who at that point had basically dominated 90% of the new world.

Why else do you think fucking Nagash and Gork / Mork align with Sigmar? Because that's just how much Chaos had dickstomped the fucking world. It was only that united Alliance that was able to push Chaos even remotely back enough that those in the initial pantheon were able to even lay claim to their own incarnate realms. Nagash: Death, Malekith (Malerion): Shadow, Teclis and his brother: Light, Gork/Mork: Beasts, and so on. Humanity (read: humanioids) actually returned to the realms for a while since the deities were looking after their own respective realms.

The Alliance eventually dissolved because go figure it was tenuous at best and most were in it to further their own interests, not all hold hands and be happy. This is all Pre-Stormcast btw. The Alliance broke up for a variety of reasons, but when it did, those humans who had been under the relative protection of their patron deities for a while got their shit pushed in. The deities themselves GOT THEIR SHIT PUSHED IN. Nagash was killed - yes, actually "died" about as dead as a god of death can get until later events. The rest of the realms were fucking overrun with Chaos once again. Sig flipped his shit and closed up his realm, locked up every realmgate leading to it, and told the rest of the world to fuck off.

>>43615356
>If you can't understand the difference between the undead and their impending doom trope vs the protagonists armies being literally immortal this conversation is going to go nowhere
They are literally undead though. Nagash is trying to pick them up for himself, so that's why they are prioritized to remain Eternals. But it all comes at a price; Sigmarite is the limited source here rather than bodies themselves, and the Eternals lose more of their memory every time they go through the process. See, people here are saying that the story's for children yet here we have grown people who actually believe that the protagonist army is invincible and limitless. I think it's really cool that the limit to the Stormcast Eternals comes not from bodies/manpower necessarily, but through Sigmarite and the side effect of the rebirth process.

>>43615525

The entire time this is happening, humanity is getting assfucked trying to fight Chaos all because Siggycakes got his panties wadded up and decided that protecting shit wasn't his problem anymore.

Foremost one has to ask themselves if Sigmar is even "right" in what he did here, which is effectively allow humanity to get purged by Chaos almost to the point of extinction. If Sigmar had held the Alliance together, the Stormcasts in themselves would likely have not been necessary.

Moreover, the existence of the Stormcasts is not inherently "good" by any stretch. For those who even remember their past lives, they realize that they are bound to Sigmar - willingly or unwillingly, a Stormcast does not exist without Sigmar's will. No one said every fucking member of every fucking forging was utterly dedicated to Sigmar - even in the very first fluff with Ionus Cryptborn, he longs to return to the Amethyst realm and sleep with the rest of the dead where he belongs.

Vandus spends half a book remembering who he was, and after he does, he fights more to avenge himself and the death of humanity rather than in Sigmar's name. Thostos Bladestorm doesn't remember shit of his former life after the events of Storm of Blades, despite the fact that he desperately feared losing what took him so long to remember.

Are these the actions of an objectively "good" god? This is supposed to be "morally black and white?"

Keep in mind NAGASH fucking allied with ORDER. Malekith allied with ORDER. Because they seek to rule in an orderly fashion - not necessarily a "good" one. Even Nagash let humans loyal to him chill in his realm pre-Chaos.

>>43607641

Ghyran seems kind of Earth like.

I'll agree though that I think GW really should have tried and should try to explain more about the Mortal Realms rather than give explanations that are ultimately vague and include maps which are only part of a greater whole.

>>43610136

Fantasy was honestly nowhere close to ASoIaF and attempting to bring it close to such, if it could even be done, would still leave you with people complaining about how different it was and the bigger role characters would take on in the lore and likely in the game.

>>43613072

>no explanation for what the universe was like and how shit got done they just did

Just like Fantasy

>>43615630

So here we are with Sigmar spending most of the time just before the events of the Realmgate wars wisking up souls to forge into Stormcasts.

Nagash is pretty fucking pissed that Sigmar is literally stealing the souls of the dead from him, and is likely setting shit up real soon to take his rightful claim on the souls of the Stormcast. It's implied that the fact the Stormcasts lose a part of their soul when they are reforged that Nagash is taking his toll one piece at a time.

Alarielle / Green Lady only cares so much as to get her own fucking realm back and has shown no loyalty but to her own problems.

The forces of Destruction (Gork / Mork) still exist as effectively an elemental threat and will fight anything that gets in their way - this is the way it always has been so nothing has changed. The WAAGH that occurred when the Alliance broke up literally bulldozed over every realm. It can happen again just as easily.

Teclis, Tyrion, and Maliketh are more obsessed about finding their own people (assuming Slaanesh barfed them out).

The Slaan have their great "plan" and haven't told anyone shit. Again implying this "plan" is even remotely "good" for the other races is a shot in the dark.

And Chaos - which is probably the most complicated of the whole lot. Slaanesh is effectively "dead" although it's implied Malekith's mom is probably Slaanesh incarnate at this point or maybe just Slaanesh in disguise. Nurgle's tied up with Alarielle. Khorne spent the better part of the time pre-Stormcast stomping the shit out of other Chaos gods. Tzeentch still has people like Kairos around and his own realm to fuck with - not to mention in all of this, the Horned fucking Rat is trying to cut in on everyone's space.

Meanwhile Archaeon is the only unifying force Chaos has, and likely the only chance Chaos has to stand against the Stormcast and Sig who are gathering up allies again just like the first time.

>arguing subjective taste as objective facts
>this entire thread
>me even replying in this bait thread
/tg/ in a nutshell

>>43615525
>>43615630
>>43615790
>>43613072
>>43615356

So in all of this, the question is: Who sides with Sigmar this time around, even though the Alliance failed the first time? It was successful in driving Chaos back, but only temporarily before the pantheon got too tied up in their own interests. Is Sigmar foolish for trying to do it again?

Moreover, can Archaeon unite Chaos and remain the Everchosen, despite the fact that Slaanesh is effectively dead or in hiding, the Horned Rat is trying to carve out his own claim in the warp, and most of the Chaos gods are focused on their own pursuits?

The Stormcasts are winning fights and allies, but they're all phyrric victories that involve droves of Stormcasts either having to be reforged, OR DYING OUTRIGHT when their souls get sucked into the warp trying to fight - go figure - shit that comes from the warp. And even in reforging, the Stormcasts are losing parts of themselves - what happens when there's nothing left to lose?

Beyond that, loads of lore is currently left to explore and left unexplained. The true motivations of the Elves, for one.

In all of this, who is "good" and who is "right?" It's ambiguous and left for the player / reader to decide, but it certainly isn't this cartoon villain black and white shit people who haven't read the stuff make it out to be.

>>43609057
If GW think that make money, that is it. Every move of GW, are nothing but making money.

The issue I have with it is that the original world of WHFB was a really interesting setting (albeit fairly generic by today's standards) with a lot of interesting setpieces. Sylvania, Nehekhara, the Empire, Bretonnia, the Mountains of Mourn, etc were all really cool settings to have a lot of different factions. This made a cohesive, interesting world.

Now we have... different realms? With god warriors fighting demons in the different worlds? And we can use old characters and units from WHFB but they're not REALLY the old characters unless you want to say they're like ghosts or came through a time portal or some weird thing like that?

It just seems like, although we've moved up in terms of scale (actually having the equivalent or antithesis of a chaos god on the side of Order), the stakes have never felt lower. During End Times the story was based around Chaos encroaching in on the last vestiges of humanity. Now all there is is some kind of endless battle going on in these realms which players aren't invested in at all so we can just have a playground to fight in forever. There's no reason to care about these things besides GW telling us to.

>>43615630
>Malekith allied with ORDER.
But Malekith is the one true king of Ulthuan and all the mean things he ever did were part of Khaine's plan to make him a perfect ruler. And all those honorable heroic High Elf kings were actually cowards who cheated at the test.

>>43613072
>when a stormcast dies he comes back
...he changed and sometime they even can't be rezz.

>skaven have multiplanar tunnels that can go anywhere
...unstable and collapse all the time.

>no explanation for what the universe was like and how shit got done they just did
...lore need time, but the only realm need to explain so far is Chamon. The rest just too shallow.

>every single fucking one of the campaigns is the same
>push chaos back
>unexpected reinforcements push 'campaign good guys here' back
>unexpected reinforcements for 'campaign good guys here' push chaos back
...agree, but the Silver Maiden part is fun.

>>43615897
It's a fucking mess of sameness dressed up with different paintjobs. It's trying so hard to be extreme and epic that it all mushes together into nonsense.

>>43616731
>It's a fucking mess of sameness dressed up with different paintjobs

And what the fuck kind of standard are you comparing it to?

Warmachine? 40k? Old Fantasy?

>>43616155
Do you have some sort of period leak goi...ng....on...?

>>43616781
I'm not comparing it to anything but itself. It's just an ocean of noise. Infinite armies on infinite dimensions fighting infinite battles over infinite shit. Everything is packed with superlatives and it becomes meaningless

I'm not trying to say you're wrong for liking it, but I don't find it interesting in the slightest.

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Turns out Fantasy was just on the other side of the warp.

Sigmarines are just lost Space Marines.

>>43617219

>Infinite armies

Not all of them are infinite. Actually I', pretty sure I recall reading something that points to the creation of the Stormcast being a finite prospect and the additional possibility that not all that die survive the Reforging.

>infinite dimensions

Seven, eight if you count Allpoints which is a sort of next between the eight Mortal Realms. Azyr is shut for the time being and I'm not sure I could see Order forces going into the Realm of Chaos.

>infinite shit

The Stormcast have a somewhat clear goal of trying to reclaim Realmgates, try and rebuild the old alliance, and gradually push back Chaos in each of the realms. Lixardmen have the clear goal of trying to use the Mortal Realms as a chess board upon which they can finally defeat Chaos.

>>43617391
>Actually I', pretty sure I recall reading something that points to the creation of the Stormcast being a finite prospect and the additional possibility that not all that die survive the Reforging.
And Sigmarite is a finite resource.

In other news there are but a million Space Marines, Baneblades are so rare and difficult to obtain an entire knockoff industry has popped up, Warlord Titans are all but irreplaceable, and Vanquisher cannons have only ever been made on three worlds two of which are dead.

Stormcast are as functionally unlimited as the Imperial Guard.

>>43618687
Exactly AoS is just like every other GW game

>>43617391
>Seven, eight if you count Allpoints which is a sort of next between the eight Mortal Realms. Azyr is shut for the time being and I'm not sure I could see Order forces going into the Realm of Chaos.

Each realm is a universe unto itself. Near infinite in size and scoop with numberless sub-realms. The slogan of AoS is infinite battles in infinite realms.

Also the Stormcast are limited with how much Sigmirite can be mined from Malus and with the waning power of Sigmar but hey are still many legions of them for each of he realms. The rest of major factions are essentially infinite (Undead, Orruks, Skaven, Seraphs).

>>43603593
WHFB is still here though you whiny shit. They didn't burn all the rulebooks.

>>43615178
>That's cuz the narrative has just started. There's obviously a lot of set up happening. Now I won't make my true conclusion on whether this is gonna actually be good or bad until I see what GW does with this set up.

GW's writing staff is not good enough to make a good narrative.

>>43592623

easy.
it was all a bad dream. Never happened.

>>43620085
Yet they're dropping support for WHFB very quickly.

But you're right, we still have the rulebooks so the game will clearly grow and flourish like what happens when everything stagnates.

I mean look how well Bretonnia did without an army book for a century...

>>43620085

When was the last time you played Warmaster? Or Man-of-War?

DIDN'T BURN ANY OF THOSE FUCKING RULEBOOKS EITHER.

>>43605600
Being made of metal cannibalized from a thing we used to like doesn't make them more relatable at all. That's serial killer logic. "Why don't you like me? I'm wearing your wife's face as a mask. Didn't you like your wife?"

>>43592623
Trash it and just run a post-apocalyptic Old World where factions are smaller scale. Dial back Chaos proportionally - like, have the forces of the Old World mostly seal it away, but at the cost of decimating the world, the great kingdoms tumbling down amid massive magical storms or being shattered by falling Slann spacecraft. So instead of being an overwhelming force up North, Chaos is now an insidious, eldritch threat constantly trying to worm its way back into the world, alike to the monster-gods of Hyborian fiction or the Ogdru Jahad.

Imagine how cool this shit would be. Clans of post-Imperial survivors fighting the remnants of Bretonnia over ancient crashed Slann craft. Roaming asrai and asur constantly searching for traces of Chaos taint to quell. Corrupted tribes led by minor daemons scouring the remnants of the Old World for some way to reopen the realm to their masters.

Shit would've been tits.

>>43608690
They're all extremely specifically themed and... unreal, though. There's nowhere in AoS that seems grounded. I mean, the fluff says that humans are everywhere, but there's nowhere you could actually feasibly imagine humans living. But at the same time, GW refuses to go full balls to the walls metal and pulling some Vampire Chevalier Requiem level shit, instead just having these vague, uninteresting, samey settings floating around in an unspecified grey space.

The 40K galaxy works because it has a fuckton of scale. You can fit anything in there. But the AoS universe is similarly undefined WHILE also being limited by its realms. All the realms are extremes one way with no room for anything different. Realm of Fire? Fucking volcanoes and fire and shit everywhere. Realm of Shadow? MIST and darkness, caves! It's got no life, and at the same time no real variety. It's just extremely generic in every way.

>>43621360

THIS.

In fact, you know what?

Fuck it.

I'm running a WFRP campaign that will go through the End of Times, and this is where I plan on having it go.

>>43606102

Could have been cool to do 'X stormcast' as an elite unit for each army.

So Elves get Elven Stormcast as an elite unit that focuses on their strengths tuned to greater heights and dwarves get the same.

Toss in some female models too and you'd get a lot more character out of them rather than the rather samey setup they have right now.

>>43592623
Throw it out

>>43621465
>>43606102
>>43605629
The whole reason I played Fantasy instead of 40K was that I like models with personality. I want my guys to have faces and some outer signs of an inner life. I don't want to field fifty identical hulking masked blobs of metal. I also don't want to play against them. They're boring and I don't care about them.

>>43592623
What isn't there to like?

Golden vikings riding the double lightning bolt to DEUS VULT the swarthy barbarian hordes of SHAMWOW?

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>>43615820
/tg/ is essentially bait and shitposting now. All you have to do is start a thread about AoS and it'll be shitposting till it auto-sages.

Mods don't give a shit and would rather ban people for reporting shitposters or off-topic posting than to short this shit out. The fact we have dedicated shitposters on /tg/ now and nobody gives a shit and just go "i-i-gnore t-t-them!" shows how far /tg/ is fallen. I come here only in the hope that it's even a fraction of the old /tg/, but it isn't. It's depressing.

>>43621725
Then don't play Sigmarines. The fact is, the setting is 6 months old and you have no idea if Empire and Bretonnia (you MUST be talking about them, as no other faction has faced covered) are gone, as it's already been fucking mentioned. Pic related.

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>>43621984
>>43621725
Fuck wrong picture.

>>43621984
>>43621998
I'm well aware that they're coming up with contrived ways to let players use all their old armies if they don't want to buy Sigmarines. But I don't want to play against them, either. I don't want to even fucking look at them. And I don't want to say that my armies now live in a giant sterile shopping mall.

The End Times was actually pretty good for all the things it had to be. That's a fine place to stop. I think I'll just quit.

>>43621360
Fallout WHFB.

I would play the shit out of that.

The elves homeland is almost completely under water. Just the tops of what were mountains now islands.

The dragons are fucking back. Holy shit yes they are awake and angry.

There are a few human settlements left, mostly along the coast. Imperial and Breton are now just old names people barely remember.

High Elves survived on a few of their little islands. More were killed when the dragons woke up than in the fighting against Chaos and orcs.

Dark elves got ass raped by Lizards from the south and chaos humans from the north. Naggaroth is pretty empty these days.

Lizards and Skaven murdered each other. Skaven are quite rare now, thought extinct by most and almost so.

Lizard men have a few cities left. All the 2nd, 3rd and most of the 4th generation Slaan are gone or dead. New spawning of slaan happened but they are young and inexperienced.

Wood elves out number both high and dark elves together and have spread across most of the old world. Old world is mostly primeval forest again. They are in a state of constant war with the beastmen and surviving orc bands.

Beastmen are in constant war with wood elves and orcs. There aren't many orcs left because of this. They will never go extinct but its going to be a long time before anybody needs to be more worries about tem than the beastmen again.

What's left of the skaven end up joining the beast men for protection.

Nobody has seen the halflings since the 2nd moon assploded. Presumed extinct. Just a big wyrdstone studded crater where the Moot used to be.

The mortal forces of chaos have burned themselves out for now and the depopulated world means it might be a long time before they recover. Demons were stranded and diminished when the north pole went weird and the 2nd moon disappeared. Little more than strange humans now, they mostly just want a door way back home.

>>43622116
Then don't play them.

Quit then, probably for the best. WHFB wasn't going to last anyway, so maybe End Times should have just ended it.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the fluff of AoS. Its just that GW did a piss-poor job of rolling it out by focusing on some of the least interesting faction/models and creating so much ill will by killing off Warhammer Fantasy in way that shows nothing but contempt for its fans. It was a complete boondoggle, and I don't understand why int he past half year they haven't released any other new AoS factions to get their audience excited.

>>43621398

Same opinion. With the Realms in itself is nothing wrong, but are too specific. Especially when they are so huge.

Question about the factions in AoS.

How many of them have actual reasons to be fighting mirror matches? Why would Stormcast be fighting Stormcast? Serphon vs Seraphon? Aelf vs Aelf? Are all the undead subservient to Nagash or are there necromancers and vampires that contest his rule?

That was one of the nice things about Fantasy, everyone could fight anyone and it could happen for a fluff backed reason.

>>43624707
eh... training exercise?

>>43621360

>Dial back Chaos proportionally

So basically remove an essential element of Warhammer.

>>43624707

Stormcast versus Stormcast could be said to be part of their training exercises in Azyr. Elves could be difference of opinion between two leaders or factions. Undead could likewise be two leaders butting heads, that actually sounds like something Nagash may approve of since by fighting each other they're only weakening themselves.

Why Lizardmen would fight each other is a bit difficult, but then again it doesn't seem much different from Fantasy. It is mentioned that the Slann have different ideas of how to go about things, so you could do something based on that.

There is nothing to fix about Age of Sigmar. The entire thing should be cancelled and forgotten as quickly as possible. Then GW should bring WHFB back and say that the only pretended to be retarded.

>>43621360
>Trash it and just run a post-apocalyptic Old World where factions are smaller scale
People have said it before, but all you really had to do was make a version of WHFB that ran on LOTR SBG rules.

>>43595701
It's pretty clear by the books that the sigmarines lack in those traits are due to being new and still learning about themselves

I expect the dark angels were very much like them when the great crusade was lunched

>>43592623
Who lives in the realms, what do they do, what do they believe, and who are the Incarnates to them.

These are basic details, but instead GW have invested page after page on outlining utterly irrelevant crap like how many Bloodsplurgers are in a Khorne Skullcartel, and which hero unit is the CFO of a Sigmarine Lightning Chapter.

All the realms seem empty of anything but Chaos guys, and just fighting Chaos guys on it's own isn't enough to really give a shit about. If you haven't told me what's important about the realm of Fire, why should I care about the battle of Fireflame Valley for the Singember Fortress on Mount Ashburn? I don't need to know the name of every gully and stream, just why any of it matters beyond Sigmar being angry about his hammer.

Also, make Sigmar is pretty dull. The character only existed as a tongue-in-cheek Conan riff in the previous setting, and now he's not even that. Just Odin without all the interesting stuff.

>>43612804
Enjoy the total warhammer dlc for those races

>>43621360
This actually sounds kinda good. Sure, I would find something to bitch about still, but pretty good.

>>43617325
We all knew this btw

Early editions flat out stated the wf world was just in the center of the eye of terror

>>43617391
Yeah they stated it took choas 500 years to take over the realm of metal minus the drawf area
And sigmars place has a clear size it orbits a fucking core of a planet
The realms are planet size

>>43622128
> People from AoS though the old world was destroyed.
> They were wrong.

>>43629253
>that ran on LOTR SBG rules.
>Skirmish level game
>Focus on the heroes leading the warband
>Has it's own army level ranked units rules
I don't even know how they missed it.

>>43629440

>but instead GW have invested page after page on outlining utterly irrelevant crap like how many Bloodsplurgers are in a Khorne Skullcartel, and which hero unit is the CFO of a Sigmarine Lightning Chapter.

Because ultimately this is what is important for the creation of armies. The other aspects are nice and things I'd like to see as well, but they're concepts an entire book has to be devoted to, putting them in with army rules is halfassed.

This is ultimately what an RPG system would be good for, but GW got out of the RPG system some time ago. Alternatively they could do books to try and elucidate on such things, but products like those have been few and far between.

>>43629439
>Be on great crusade with the First
>Stop at Donaldus Mac VII for refreshment
>First Legionnaire ahead of me in line
>Orders hamburger with water and vanilla ice cream
>Notice all the other First Legionnaire's have ordered the same thing
>Feel very self conscious ordering my dozen Emperor Macs and barrel of ale
>It's a dietary thing, I've got cravings and needs
>Being Sixth is suffering

>>43592623
PUT IT IN THE LOO AND BRING BACK FANTASY TOO

>>43631346
You mean the designated street, right?

>>43611219
because the novels are full of actual fluff this time in the way horus heresy is BL is being taken more seriously with AOS the rule books and source books have simplistic version of the fluff that's still not that bad for kids.

>>43611192
why don't you paint your golden robots dark colors and realize that john snow is going to repawn when killed.. for fucks sake GW fans I thought you liked converting stuff you realize all your fav SM based chapters wolfs dark angels all of it where started by fans. GW is literally giving you the opotunity to make up your own stormhosts or create iconography for existing stormhosts and people are complaining about gold paint..... wtf... paint shit your self I sware the fanbase has just given up and just reads fluff rather than paints or converts... do you even glue your models together for fucks sake. my friend who got me back into GW games talked to me like plastic glue was a big discovery and trick for him.. I think the modern GW fanbase is just lazy as fuck and wants the stock lore to be good its a new setting make up your own chapter (stormhost) and paitn them how you want.. if you don't think you can make stormcast look like knights watch your insain use warriors of chaos bits cut off.. its easy fuuck you could invent the next space wolfs wouldn't you like that honor. you realize fan converted a space wolf before GW did do you even get how wargame lore Is slowly built up. the reason White dwarf used to be popular is that it was full of community submitted stuff.. now 4chan/blogs are the new whitedwarf.. MAKE COOL SHIT OUT OF THE BORNING STORMCAST vanilla marines are more boring that stormcast add your own iconography

>>43630270
well after FW Is done with HH they are being given LOTR and the HOBBIT maybe FW will make rulebooks expanding that ruleset and show LOTR models but imply that you could use your WHFB shit as well.. maybe they will even make square base rules. its hinted at in that leaked thing about FW getting specialist games and a rumour said that doesn't start till 2018 and the gw official response also says future years I think it implies horus heresy ends in 2 years so in 2 years time FW might be working on advancing the LOTR/HObbit ruleset and possibly strongly implying fantasy support while not showing it because they cant because WHFB are excuslive to AOS now but FW can hint it in many ways. honestly I think that's what will happen and then at some point the LOTR/HObbit advanced system that FW works on might be transferred over to AOS once the fanbase matures.. movment trays will come back im sure of it.

>>43635897
I honestly think Horus Heresy might get movment trays soon the armys are big and a lot of fantasy palyer switched to that system at at some point a army of 5 Spartans full of 100 troops make more sense on movment trays even if thye are spaced out and the gaps in the middle have scenic rubble like the pimarcs HH on terra is really on a scale that's more like WHFB was and needs the trays I think hopefully they do it.

>>43612549

No. Just no. There's a reason grimdark became a meme.

The 40k setting is existentially shit. Humanity on our world might live bleak or short or painful lives, but there aren't collosal cosmic forces specifically devoted to eating or mind-raping us; or if they are, they haven't found us yet.

That BL statement makes sense only when you consider that advances in technology in 40K are matched by advancement in the hostility of the cosmos, from inactive to completely hateful. That's not something we've observed over the past 200 or so years of technological advancement.

I can't look at 40K and not see it as satirical in the same manner the final Blackadder series was. Trench warfare still exists 40,000 years in the future, and officers spend the lives of their men endlessly and uncaringly (contrary to what you might have thought, WWI generals were not like that at all). Technological advancement is impossible due to both cultural and material factors. The Space Marines are a childish power fantasy roided up to 11, humanity worships a big corpse-lighthouse while shoving souls into his face, the Eldar are every negative trope about Elves exaggerated, the Dark Eldar are masximum edgelord, followers of Chaos go as over the top as possible in their chosen way. And the Orks, the stupid comedy race who are hyperbolised english football hooligans, have effectively won because never-ending war is their goal and it's what the setting is all about.

That's not getting into the fact most of the stuff in 40k was just whatever a British nerd in the 80s enjoyed, a lot from 2000AD and so on. Mega-City One is the main inspiration for Hive Cities, after all.

You can write 40k seriously, especially if you focus on the small-scale horror and blood of it all (Fifteen Hours?) but on a large scale it's just too ridiculous for me to take seriously.

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>>43636176
Yeah, this sums it up pretty well. 40k is funny, but also at the same time cool. That's why people like it. Some people just like one of those two aspects more over the other.

I personally feel that Age of Sigmar fails at being cool and that's why a lot of people don't like it. WHFB was fun and cool at the same time so a portion of that audience feels betrayed.

>>43636569
You know why AoS is kinda shit?

There's no humanity in it, I mean emotions and stuff you can connect too. Everyone can understand the struggle in 40k and the bureaucratic derpitude, and other silly stuff because at the end of the day there's a lot of human error and shit.
Or orks just muckin' about having a party.
Or really hungry guys.
Or like admech being superstitious dongles. People get that.

AoS however is armoured space men with hammers fighting in the cosmic ether over..I don't even know. Cosmic ether stuff. Lizardmen live in giant ether spaceships instead of being an analogue to the mayan/aztec/inca/olmec cultures/collapse, etc.

>>43636617
Yeah, they really screwed up when they didn't represent the every man from the get go. Some people will love the Sigmarine vs Chaos stuff, but not everyone is impressed with them at all. I'm part of that group. To me powerlevel is meaningless if the charactarization isn't interesting or it has a good backdrop to work with.

Space Marines isn't typically interesting as characters, but they are part of a desperate struggle in a desperate setting against the odds. That itself makes them heroic and inspiring by default. Some of them also go rogue, so they have a very human element to them despite being these weird indoctrinated super soldiers with stunted emotions.

Maybe Matt Ward could fix the setting?

>>43635897
>expanding that ruleset and show LOTR models but imply that you could use your WHFB shit as well.
They can't, it's part of the GW's contract that the two line have to remain separate and incompatible.

That's why LotR is in a different scale, Balrog wings can't be put on a Hive Tyrant, and ultimately why the game failed.

>>43621465
I would have liked this a lot, to be honest.

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>>43592623
It's not the fluff I have a problem with. Actually, noblebright fantasy, with knights in shining armor against the encroaching darkness a-la saturday morning cartoons is a nice refreshingly new take on the space marine face-hidden-by-mask idealized-male-form self-insertion power fantasy that has become GW's bread and butter.

The grimderp was getting old, and starting to infect even WHFB. The problem isn't the fluff... it's the rules, or I should more accurately say, the LACK of rules.

The fluff is a nice return to 80's fantasy roots, even if they did have to shoehorn in noblebright fantasy space marines... and hey, that's still better than literally more space marine books.

However, I'm still not going to invest in a game that doesn't even have army construction rules other than "fuckit, nobody cares, bring whatever"

>>43641625
AoS is not noblebright. It's called dark fantasy where Chaos has all but raped, violated, and tortured everything for hundreds of years. Only now the Forces of Order are fighting back and it's an uncertain war for them.

Those Stormcast, who are few who survive the process, are losing parts of themselves each time they die and sometimes their souls are utterly destroyed by the process. Plus Swigmar's power wanes and Malus cannot be mined for Sigmirite forever.

Swigmar has one shot to rid the realms of the tyranny of Chaos and if he fails, then all is lost.

>>43605026
But that's the opposite of everything true. Originally, Fantasy was a balance (though heavily 80's-tastic flavored, leaning towards silly) and 40k was 100% silly. However, around the early 2000's, GW learned that you sell FAR MORE units marketing to 14 year olds who have just discovered that things can be dark, so they amped up the dark to 11 on both, and it worked better in 40k (from a marketing perspective) and slowly everything in both settings became all grimderp all the time. This sold more 40k, and turned 40k into a genuine blue-chip IP, but fantasy couldn't measure up.

I for one am happy that they stopped trying to mirror 40k's grimderpness in fantasy, and instead just settled for mirroring their space marines, but with less "Die for the emprahhh graaaa" shit.

>>43641721
>The forces of evil outnumber the heroes, and threaten to destroy the world. They have one shot to destroy the darkness and save the world, and it's all on the line as they march out in their shining armor to defend the last bastion of civilization.

Yeah, that doesn't sound like classic fantasy tropes at aaaaalllll.

>>43641748
>but with less "Die for the emprahhh graaaa" shit.

Instead it's "Die for the God King raaaah!"

>>43641774
Might be but it will take a mighty long grueling with an astronomical death toll until Chaos is driven from the realms. All whle the little folk will be caught in the middle.

>>43610965
Bretonnia is a cartoon exaggeration of the real middle ages. Even at its best they get treated worse than real life peasants.

>>43641906
>All whle the little folk will be caught in the middle.
Yes+, and in 40k/near-the-end-of-the-run fantasy, the fiction would never let you forget that, ramming down your throat how horrible the 41'st millenium was, and how terrible the lives of Brettonian peasents were etc...

That's a narrative choice, and one that especially appeals to a specific market that 40k's sort of got cornered. AoS doesn't make those same narrative choices, and choses to focus on the heroism, and the struggle against the darkness, which is a breath of fresh air.

Like I get that you hate the game, and that it killed a game you love. I also hate the game aspect of AoS, because it's basically not there (though have largely considered fantasy to be dying since half-way through 7th, and 100% dead with the release of 8th, so I have less to mourn.) But the fluff is refreshingly different for GW, with many storytelling elements that they had long-ago jettisoned to market to 14 year old game-store-kids spending daddy's money. IT's actually quite nice, and if I could find a game to actually use them in, and a chinese copycat to buy them cheap from, I'd love to use the stormcast models, unfortunately: shit game and overpriced.

>>43642071
I don't hate it, you dolt. I am just saying your view of the setting is wrong.

The Stormcast look heroic on the surface but dig below and you see darkness behind them and what fate awaits every and each one of them. Why do you think Sigmar neglected to tell them that they are all destined to be mindless warrior drones?

Furthermore, AoS does not shy away from showing you the horror and pain Chaos has inflicted on the realms and their peoples.

The setting is not noblebright in the slightest. It's a dark fantasy setting like the one that proceeded it..

>>43642071
You think Warhammer Fantasy was catering to teenagers but AoS is not vastly more so? Are you kidding?

>>43642169
>You think Warhammer Fantasy was catering to teenagers but AoS is not vastly more so? Are you kidding?
No, they are still catering to the 14 year olds, but they how cater to different flavors of 14 year olds. 40k sort of has the market cornered on sexually frustrated young boys who just read frank miller for the first time and just realized that their old "childish" hobbies could be serious and gritty, and love it, even when it's taken 8 steps too far.

AoS is catering to... well... the fantasy crowd, who are used to seeing Drizzt Do'urden save the world from darkness.

They're diversifying their market, and that's a good thing from a making money perspective, and from a storytelling perspective. The only way in which they've failed is the game design perspective.

>>43642289
And you know, the fact AoS is a much worse setting than WHFB.

Destroying something relatively unique for a generic money grab is not a good thing from a 'storytelling perspective'.

>>43642421
>ng relatively unique for a generic money grab is
WHFB WAS something unique, until it became just "the fantasy grimderp suplement to grimderp40k" circa the late 0X's IT was sort of like a snake eating its own tail, because 40k began as fantasy-in-space, but eventually it grew to take over its parent in the lamest possible way.

>>43642421
>relatively unique
Fantasy was literally Earth with new factions thrown in.

>>43621998

So, where does the food for the people get to Azyrheim from? Do they grow it there in farms outside the city? Do they import in in from elsewhere? Could Azyrheim be starved out if a Marauding band of Orcs fall upon the great carrot shipment? This is explicitly not an earth-like setting, so we can't assume anything, so why are we not getting the 'small' details?

>>43642577
Fantasy was obviously based off Earth, but the many races, factions, and geographical areas had a lot of work put into their history, aesthetic, and culture creating something wholly different from anything not cribbing off it.

And over 30+ years there were many who borrowed from its success.

>>43643534
Well, the Elvis were mostly based on LOTR and Moorcock. But hey, of you're gonna steal an idea, you steal something good.

I don't see any good stolen ideas in AoS.

>>43644822


The Pheonix king of rock and roll?

>>43645429
Well, it's just autocorrect making me look like a doofus, but I do like the idea of rock'n'roll elves with pompadour haircuts.

>>43635897

>I think it implies horus heresy ends in 2 years

No way

HH is still going to be FW's main priority, the people working on it will just also being taking a look at specialist games, probably with the additional help GW is looking to hire.

The idea of FW doing anything with Fantasy, related to a specialist game or not, is just a desperate grab.

>>43636176

In hindsight I probably should change my core proposition a bit. I can see how one can view 40k as satirical in the sense that like other satire it points out humanity's inherent flaws, whether they be past or present.

Honestly, my statement about some people not being able to handle such an idea came from those on /tg/ who espouse the idea that you can't take anything in 40k seriously, that it's supposed to epic Britbong humor and that there is no way humanity is really that horrifying and disgusting.

>>43641625

People keep calling the Stormcast Space Marines when Order aligned Chaos Warriors is really a more apt comparison. Chaos Warriors after all were one of the most popular armies and were pretty much the closest thing Fantasy had to a face in the same vein as Space Marines are a face for 40k.

>>43642824

There likely aren't any Orcs in Azyr, shortly before Sigmar closed the gates or afterwards, the Orcs were purged.