Pathfinder General /pfg/

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Reposting:

Getting up early for dental appointments is ass.

Will answer questions when back, if any currently remain.

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>>43588586
ALSO REPOSTING FUCK YOU YOU'RE NOT MY MOM

I HAVE A QUESTION: WHY ARE TEETH SO DUMB. I WOULD REMOVE EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE FUCKERS AND JUST WEAR STEEL DENTURES FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE IF IT WASN'T SO EXPENSIVE.

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>>43588586

How does the Awakened Blade prestige class actually work under the current Psionics Augmented: Soulknife rules? If Gifted Blade is free, do all levels of the Awakened Blade advance both mind blade and manifesting?

I had heard from Gareth earlier that a soulknife (war soul)/psychic warrior (pathwalker)/Awakened Blade advances only either their soulknife side or their psychic warrior side, never both. Is this true?

>>43588613
You didn't hear that from /me/, anon. Editing's answered it a couple of times though; I'll kick it at him.

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>>43588586
>>43585778
Sorcerous Bloodline is a fun feat from POW:E Feats doc.
Play a mystic, dip orc bloodline sorceror, grab the feat, and at level 11 you have bloodline abilties of a sorceror of your character level.
However the wording on it is interesting, I would get the sorceror capstone ability at level 20, and not the mystic one, since I dipped a different class.
>Why couldn't they make this badass instead of the spooky walking haunted house?

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>>43588625

I meant from *Elric*. I have woken up recently as well.

>>43588642
don't lie tohofag you never sleep

>>43588686
he subsists on frustrated tears

>>43588713
WHY WON'T YOU GO YOU DON'T EVEN LIKE THE GAME

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>>43588745
yes, something like that
anywho
Monks, the red headed stepchild of Paizo.
Which 3pp does them the best?
The DSP Steel fisted Commando Warlord
DSP Aurora Soul Mystic(my personal favourite as E.Flux and B.Blade are DBZ as fuck)
hell, even the Silver Fist Monk Archtype from DSP.
Paizo tried to fix them with the unchained monk, not a bad effort. However, they nerfed the Master of Many Styles Monk, and the Sacred Fist Warpriest.
What is it that makes this class so hard to fix for Paizo

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>>43588774
God I hate that fucker. He is the main reason we can't have nice martials in core.

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>>43588821
YUP
he is one of the leading problems
also, notice how, which I think a lot of /tg/ has, that the best pf paizo books being released are those untouched by the big writers and designers, like the new Beastiary 5.
The supposedly smaller books have much better quality.

Are any of the prestige classes in PoW good? Any specifically for my forgeborn warder?

>>43588921
Its a zweihander sentinel. The whole idea of the character is that he was born for war, being used to protect the people his generals assigned him to. So I'm going with a lot of counters and feats like martial power and take the blow. I'll look into that though

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>>43588888
it depends mister quints
what are your main disciplines?

>>43588888
you can take Landsknecht, but some of the class features don't apply to a warder if you TWF with your shield or if you're a ZS. Most of the prestige classes, by my shitty understanding, are supposed to hybrid your initiation with another class's progression, but none of them are that interesting to me. Mage Hunter is supposed to be overpowered, but fuck mages.

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>>43588947
>>43588959
I enhanced my post with some more shit about prestige classes for PoW, maybe it's slightly more informative now?? probably not though

>>43588959
Actually with Scarlet Throne Style you can treat one handed weapons as two handed when it is beneficial to you. So theoretically you can be a ZS Landsknecht and gain the best of both worlds.

>>43588978
This is correct. ZS Landsknecht is absolutely a thing you can do.

>>43588987
Why does this shitpile of a class get Vital Strike as a 7th level maneuver?

The fuck, man.

>>43589005
Did you even read how Silver Crown Strike works or are you just shitposting?

>>43589005
It's what people think Vital Strike does (e.g., if one attack crits, it all crits). That's pretty sweet; you basically get to use a maneuver that says "your critical confirmations will retroactively make all your attacks critical."
>>43588978
>>43588987
That's pretty fly, but you end up in pretty much the same place; you can use a tiny sword and it'll count as a big sword. ZS already gives you a shield bonus, though, so having that free hand open isn't super relevant unless you were going to get up to something tricky with it (Spell Combat??)

>>43589005
It is not vital strike, vital strike is "Deal 2[w]+Str."

Silver Crown Strike is "Make a full attack as a standard action, applying all relevant damage bonuses for each attack, then apply DR once to the total."

Note that, as a standard action strike, it can be combined with Martial Charge for a pseudo-pounce attack as well.

>>43589023
Well the open hand is needed so your Landsknecht class features work.

>>43589016
It's literally a worse version of Pummeling Charge. It is, literally, worse than that. It's worse than an ability that the MONK gets at level 2.

>>43589032
It's "Make a bunch of attacks, if you hit, maybe deal damage equal to less than an actual Vital Strike would do, because you don't apply Power Attack more than ones, you only apply static bonuses once, and you need to invest up to three feats in quickdrawing to be able to get your Str to it more than one"

So... in other words, it's worse than every other option, because the only attacks you'll have are from your BaB plus maybe a Speed ability, which since you're playing PoW, you can get better shit than that.

Meanwhile, someone using the Zenith like is able to use a strike and a boost to hit at, easily, +25 or more attack bonus against touch AC, doing between double to quadruple damage with DR applying once, with all modifiers multiplied.

Within the same discipline.

>>43588951
>>43588967
Didn't notice the quints but as I said I'm going for full tank since the party is currently a bloodrager and a gunslinger

>>43589050
Full-tank is useless. There is not, in any of Pathfinder, a way to actually 'tank' effectively. The best you can get is some per-day abilities out of the Warder stuff, and those aren't even good. Enjoy dying and being useless.

>>43589036
Well, not all of them; just the one that gives you full strength bonus (rendered redundant by just using a two-hander in the first place), and the reach bonus (rendered redundant by ZS). For people that aren't ZS, you can also just hold a shield and use it to block attacks; if you don't whack someone with it, you're still einhanding, based on what's written right now, as far as I can tell. That's also rendered redundant by Armament Shield. Landsknecht might actually be a bit better for a vanilla Warder who doesn't want to bother with TWF and just wants to beat down with a longsword.

>>43589059
Ok, Well then let me phrase it this way. I don't want to be a pile of bricks but I want to offer my current party defense though counters and taking aggro, while still having the power of a ZS

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>>43589047
yeah, worse than pummeling charge, a feat
which one particular monk archtype could get, before paizo nerfed it
so stop being a shitposting dick

>>43589059
Also the defender thing is just a character flavor thing for me. I understand that the class is still a murderball

>>43589069
Warders got a nice present with access to Eternal Guardian, though it's not as easy for them to curse people without the (dorky-ass edgelord) Fiendbound Marauder archetype. Look for abilities that punish spellcasting, punish movement, and let you stay close to people to punish anything else that would provoke attacks of opportunity. You probably won't have to look very hard.

Being a ZS and having some decent sense in what maneuvers you pick should pretty much take it from there unless your stat allocation is awful.

>>43589079
You can literally be more effective with a second level maneuver from the same discipline.

The 5th level one? Blows Crown RIGHT the fuck out of the water.

>>43589062
Well with Deadly Agility Strength of Arms applies uses Dex as far as I understand. You couldn't do that with a two-handed weapon, except the Estoc.
Also Superior and Defensive Reach stack to my understanding.

>>43589090
How/where can I get the pdf for PoW and Expanded without torrenting?

>>43589116
PoW is a released book and you will need to go steal it from somewhere (or buy it). PoW Expanded is still being playtested and you can just go to GitP and read it there:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444869-Dreamscarred-Press-Path-of-War-Expanded!-(Thread-VII)

>>43589108
If those are both true, then that would be pretty interesting, because it would make a Dex ZS pretty viable. Not like Warders really have a ton of feat taxes. Could one of you DSP mooks confirm that? I could probably make a cool build based on that.

>>43589133
Superior and Defensive Reach do stack, but the wording on Deadly Agility prevents Strength of Arms from working with the feat.

>This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is not reduced for off-hand weapons.

It /might/ work with feats like slashing grace or dervish dance though. Paizo's Dex to Damage stuff is a bit unclear on the subject of whether the U!Rogue's FAQ applies to only U!Rogue or anyone using Dex to Damage.

>>43589123
Eternal guardian stuff seems a little broken

>>43589148
>This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is not reduced for off-hand weapons.

I don't see how that prevents it from working. Can you elaborate?

>>43589158
I mean...it's fine, in my opinion? Generally speaking, it lets you stick to people and whack them if they do something besides attack you. It gets better when combined with Cursed Razor, and best when you can rapidly curse people (Harbinger). I would say it's probably in one a good place, honestly.

>>43589059
Actually, my unchained monk tanks really effectively.

>>43589183
I just see the word "teleport" a lot. What would you say I should take from each level of maneuver?

>>43589079
>>43589098
While unchained monk gets flying kick, a charge attack that is better than those largely because you can attack before and after the charge.

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>>43589148
I know Paizo recently fucked around with Slashing Grace and I don't feel like figuring out whatever gave PFS DMs the bad tummyfeels, but Dervish Dance is the same and, as far as I can tell from reading it, it'd be fine with Landsknecht. You'd get a shield bonus from your scimitar's basket, I suppose.

>>43589158
It used to be worse. I spent a lot of time trying to fix it.

>>43589174
On second reading you might be correct. I'll talk with the other writers and see what we want to do about it, if anything. Thank you.

>>43589207
Good to know, thanks.

>>43589235
No, no, I have to thank.
Although I don't think anything needs to be done about it, Landsknecht favors a one handed fighting style, that style works best dex based, so it wouldn't be strange that Deadly Agility works with Strength of Arms.

>>43589196
If I was going to go through them and rate them in order, I guess it'd probably be something like:
1: Vigilant Keeper's Stance - can't 5-foot step through difficult terrain, which is strong; Terrifying Blow is a respectable CC effect.
2: Debilitating Fear lets you CC as as a swift if you're already rendering people shaken from some other ability; Fear the Reaper is a cool counter that synergizes with Debilitating Fear
3: Intruder's End is obviously cool; the rest are basically inferior to other disciplines
4: Grim Guard's Laughter is a pretty punishing way to do a dazzling display; Watchman's Rebuke is a great way to make solo enemies shit out and die to an SoS in traditional Pathfinder fashion
5: Unbearable Gaze is a painful counter that actually targets Reflex (rare in PoW); Shackles of the Condemned is a pretty cool take on what's basically an entangle; honorary mention for Jailer of the Damned, but you're probably better using feats for Black Seraph style feats and saving your stance for something even BLACKER and more BRUTAL, since it also gives you the ability to scare the un-scareable

I could keep going but I ran out of steam and the options start to narrow as the maneuver count decreases. Some huge nerdlord, I forget who, made the more standard color-coded guides on GitP if you want a second opinion instead of generic asshole on the Internet

>>43589264
Well, it's slightly more complicated than that from a design perspective. Ideally, Landsknecht should be largely neutral with consideration to STR vs. DEX. That's the thing that concerns me most, I don't want one stat to be a "better" choice than the other as far as Landsknecht is concerned or more generally the Einhander style we're trying to build into something viable.

>>43589271
Much obliged anon

>>43589271
I would be that huge nerdlord. The guides are what got me on the PoW:E team in the first place. I'm hoping I'll finally have time to update them once PoW:E gets published.

>>43589292
Well you need two feats to make dex viable on a landsknecht.
3 if you go ZS Landsknecht.
4 if you want an Estoc.

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>>43589292
It ends up being the same decision as it usually is for Dex vs. Str builds; do you want to trade some feats for some stat points, 5e style?
Also,
>>43589301

>>43589292
Except Dex>Str at all times. It increases AC, a saving throw, initiative, and everythign else, and with a single feat, PoW makes it a viable attack and damage option.

Why would anyone bother with strength?

>>43589324
There are enough fans of PoW that legitimately don't recognize that I'm the Elric that wrote the guides /and/ the Elric that writes for PoW:E that I tend to err on the side of people not knowing.

>>43589327
My response to this ended up getting archived or deleted last time it came up, but the short answer is that STR is easier to raise to ridiculous levels than DEX is, and there are ways to mitigate (and possibly eliminate) the need for DEX thanks to some feats and class features in PoW and PoW:E. I hope to expand on these options in the future and bring better parity to the two stats.

>>43589355
So we will be able to gain AC from our steeled abs instead of dodging shit?
SIGN ME UP!

>>43589368
I'd love to make that a thing. Good to know I'll have your backing when the inevitable knee jerk reactions arise next time I suggest the feat.

>>43589368
Well, I mean...you do already gain it from the actual, literal steel you probably wear around. AC isn't the thing that Str vs Dex struggles with; it's more the fact that Str doesn't actually do anything, but if you've dumped Dex, you can go ahead and wear plate now, I guess? You aren't losing much (as long as you don't try to swim or climb anything, you blobby Sigmarine impersonator).

>>43589372
Why would anyone be against that? It makes Str on par with Dex and is just plain cool.

>>43589376
>Not going into battle naked because your oiled up abs are all the defense you need.

>>43589376
The last time I gave an example of not needing DEX I used the Brutal Slayer Stalker.

This time, I'll point out the feat Defensive Expertise. This shores up your Touch AC and Reflex Save by applying your shield AC to touch and the enhancement bonus of the shield to Reflex. Seeing as those are two of the big defenses that cause issue for STR builds, it goes a long way to reducing DEX dependency. Add levels of Myrmidon(extra archetypes to taste), Warder, Vanguard Commander Warlord, or Zealot to taste.

>>43589399
There were two camps of opposition.

>This is too good! No one will ever build a DEX character again! You've ruined the game!

and

>This doesn't do enough. Nobody's going to waste a feat on this when they could just apply DEX or wear full plate anyway. Plus it doesn't fix Initiative, skills or Armor Check penalties.

So, yeah.

>>43589412
Well I mean even if it goes to half your str mod as natural armor/or/ deflection (dem abs doe) that would paperclip the AC and touch AC issue somewhat nicely.

It would be nice though if STR from core alone was aided better skill and stat wise to overcome some limitations but that's really on Paizo hating the BSF

>>43589412
Well the first camp is retarded because one could apply the same argument to the dex build feats.
>This is too good! No one will ever build a STR character again! You ruined the game!

And to the second argument I can just says that not every STR build wears full plate. It's like people totally forget the barbarian exists or that STR warlord is a thing.

So just started RotRL and one of the party members did a rather curious thing... He went Eldritch Scion Magus. This archetype so completely changes the way Magus functions, none of us have any idea how to help him build this character. Would Dragon Disciple be a solid goal for him to build towards?

The Eldritch Scion alters the Magus into a spontaneous CHA caster, that spends a pool point and swift action to even spell combat, but it also gains a bloodrager bloodline, which it can also gain powers from for spending a swift action and pool point.

Primary obstacles are spontaneous throws out the notion of the intensified shocking grasp, and since he needs to swift and spend a point in the first place to even spell combat, it is no longer just a standard thing to do every round. We are fine if it's understandably less optimized than other things, but we just really have no idea how he is even supposed to play this, or build towards, since it is so drastically different in playstyle.

>>43589412
Nerds talkin' out of the ivory tower again. Feats never existed in a vacuum;

Defensive Expertise is cool - it's obviously going to end up being more efficient than garbage like, say, Lightning Reflexes - but I think that, noting one thing, it's not actually incompatible with a Dex shield-user build. Just grab yourself a nice Darkwood Heavy Wooden, enchant that bitch up, and probably good to go. Might be nice for some kind of mad tower-shield experimental Warder build, but tower shields in general are pretty fringe to begin with.

Make a feat to make Tower Shields not suck ass, please?

>>43589457
Well Eldritch Scion Magus is very very bad. Is it too late for him to just roll up a Bloodrager?
Because I can't think of anything that fixes the mess that is the Eldritch Scion.

>>43589451
>Well the first camp is retarded because one could apply the same argument to the dex build feats.
>>This is too good! No one will ever build a STR character again! You ruined the game!

They do. Some people don't want to change anything, because it'd ruin the balance.

I'm not even kidding. They are also the ones who run core only games.

>>43589023

The thing with Landsknecht is that the one-handed fighting looks cooler.

>>43589457
Eldritch Scion is an awful archetype; you can't Spell Combat without burning precious arcane pool points, it's incompatible with metamagic, and it completely obviates the point of Spell Recall. Just don't go there, girlfriend.

>>43589059
>The best you can get is some per-day abilities out of the Warder stuff, and those aren't even good.

Full Defense is unlimited anon.

And at level 12 this gives you 15 foot reach with it counting as difficult terrain.

>>43589468
I was thinking of a feat that allowed you to shield bash with a tower shield as a two handed weapon, but I haven't gone into the details at all beyond the bare concept. I'm honestly not sure what to do with Tower Shields, I've never used them.

Please note that this is all conjecture and none of this will be in PoW:E. It's all cool and I love talking design with you anons, but I don't want to unduly get your hopes up.

>>43589477
Core also has Finesse, Slashing and Fencing Grace aswell as Dervish Dance.
It just comes online later than Deadly Agility.

>>43589457
Okay, so ES is a trap option.

At the very least, beg the DM for 2 or 4 more skill points. If you can, try to houserule their bloodrage-lite somehow as well. I dunno about the starting level, but under 8 it's pretty terrible.

Okay, that said, you have the amusing trick of exchanging the shitty first ability from the dragon bloodline (if you go dragon), or the claws from some other shitty first level bloodline power for a bloodline familiar. A Magus with a draconic bloodline mauler familiar has an easy access flying mount (assuming small magus or undersized mount) right at level 3, which can be pretty nice. Mounted magus can be kinda viable too anyway if you can persuade the DM that only your mount needs to charge for spirited charge.

>>43589500
I meant core only as CRB only. Because splats are imbalanced. Slayer is totally OP guys.

>>43589500
Those aren't Core feats; they're from ACG, Inner Sea World Guide, and some other garbage splat. When someone says Core, they mean "Core Rulebook and DMG". No way for Dex to damage in there as far as I know.

>>43589513
>>43589516
Ah sorry understood that as First party only.
Well fuck those people, why would they even be interested in stuff they won't allow anyways?
Besides autism and muh badwrongfun.

>>43589528
Because the same people who go around tuturu~ing on the Paizo forums about how Kineticist is overpowered are the same people who buy the books, read them on the toilet, and never actually play with or think about them critically.

I call these people shitter-sitters, and their opinions should probably have been flushed too.

>>43589528
>Besides autism and muh badwrongfun.

It's incredible. Go into the PFG forum. Search a thread for "how to improve rogue" or "how to balance martials" and it's 90% of the time just "you guys are just playing WRONG! You don't need to change anything!"

THE PREMISE OF THE TOPIC IS THAT WE WANT TO CHANGE SOMETHING. IF YOU DON'T AGREE, WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU EVEN HERE? YOU CONTRIBUTE NOTHING BUT REGURGURATED ARGUMENTS ANSWERED OVER AND OVER ASDSADFASFASDFASDF...

...

Sorry, I just get flashbacks from time to time.

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>>43589528
why do people want to stop other people doing anything?
because they are shit
literally 99% of outrage, 'against my values' and 'this ruins my immersion' is cunts not liking something, so think they should be pandered too
>see stormfront, /pol/, tumblr, paizo boards, etc

>>43589546
Beautiful, that actually explains everything about the Paizo forums.

>>43589565
>Implying tumblr and paizo boards are not the same thing.

>>43589508
>>43589480
>>43589471

Any ideas for a CHA based gish then?

>>43589604
Oracle.

>>43589604
oracle

>>43589604
Battle Oracle or Bloodrager are obvious choices.

>>43589604
Paladin/Oracle
Sorceror/barbarian--> eldritch knight
Sorceror/warlord--> hell knight enforcer
Sorceror/warlord--> bladecaster
Sorceror/harbinger-->blade caster

Several options

>>43589604
Oracle.

Or maaaaaybe Bladebound Arcanist with Oracle VMC (Battle) into Hellknight Signifier and Eldritch Knight. I don't know if I can find that build anymore. Although Arcanist is not completly CHA based. INT is casting stat but most Exploits scale with CHA.

>>43589651
*Blade Adept I mean

>>43589636
Sorcerers are CHA based, Harbingers are INT. Don' mix your mentals like that man. Plus it's 1/2 BAB and 3/4 BAB. You're going to have a real late entry into the PrC.

>>43589651
>>43589636
>>43589628
>>43589626
>>43589622

I'm actually playing as Battle Oracle right now. We had no divine caster so I made an emergency swap to it from Barbarian. Not being optimized is alright, but that Blade Adept Arcanist may be solid since ultimately he is going for an arcane gish (yes, using CHA). I'll bring it up with him, thanks guys.

This player unfortunately has a horrible habit of not really reading guides or anything and coming to game with some really unusual choices which sadly just tend to make him bad. I feel like he gets a rebuild every campaign now.

>>43589727
That's right my mistake.

Simple error on my part.

>>43589744
Arcanist (Blade Adept/VMC Oracle - Battle) 6/Hellknight Signifier 10/Eldritch Knight 4

nets him:
>BAB 14, CL 19 (9th level spells), Fort 7/Ref 6/Will 11

He could probably also squeeze Evangelist somewhere into there if he wanted.

>>43588848
>to be continued
Was this ever continued?

>>43589727
Sage bloodline Sorcerer?

>>43589744
>doesn't read guides
>he gets a rebuild every campaign

Brah I know that feeling fucking hard.

I've built and rebuilt so many characters for my group I don't even know why we fucking play anymore and it's bumming me out.

I'm hopefully going to change things up when I GM and make it much more user friendly and spark interest again.

>>43589770
Yeah, I guess. You're still going to suffer a lot trying to get into the PrC though. I think the earliest entry you could get away with is 8.

Anyone got a .pdf of that one Black Markets page about spell-infused poisons?

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>>43589863
Too lazy to scan only one page.

>>43589894
Neat, thanks anon.

>>43589786
Honestly, the main issue with Bladecaster is that it works best as a 4 level dip (+1 Harbi) for Magus to get Spell Combat as standard+swift than anything else.

>>43589894
Cool, thanks.

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Welp.

http://www.creightonbroadhurst.com/gm-advice-are-we-too-obsessed-with-balance/

That's some shit.

>>43589918
>>43590023
Sharing is caring and also the law. Praise Mengkare!

>>43590076
But is it really sharing if you don't do it of your own will?

>>43590073
Yes.

Perfectly balanced games are a ridiculous idea. True, the imbalance between martial and casters in PF is bad, but you don't need to make them perfectly balanced.

>>43590096
Are you trying to tell me our most glorious draconic Overlord is not of lawful good alignment?

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So, I've been thinking of buying a couple of PF books. I only have the Core Rules and Beastiary 1. Used to have the other books in pdf but my computer died a couple of months ago. Any suggestions on which I should get? Especially concerning Bestiaries.

>>43590110
>buying a couple of PF books
Nothing. Survive off of databases and legally-shared .pdfs, because fuck giving Paizo money for most of their shit. The more recent books are an improvement from what I hear, but if I were you I wouldn't pay until after I got the .pdf to make sure.

>>43590110
do not give paizo money
use d20pfsrd

>>43590109
Just that a man shouldn't need a draconic overlord to be a Good man. It's noble, what he does, but in a perfect world there'd be no more need for him, and I'm willing to bet he knows that.

>>43590098
Perfect balance is an impossible goal you want to strive for. Or, at the very least, you want all the players to at least be able to compete at the same level. Having some people that like some themes feel like second class citizens in gameplay is horrid design.

>>43590098
It isn't about the caster/martial fuckup, it's about the CR system babying the hell out of players and turning the game into Skyrim.

>>43590110
Bruh, no. Never spend a fucking dollar on Paizo, ever. DSP and Drop Dead Studios, sure, but NEVER on Paizo.

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>>43590076
>Sharing is caring
Sharing is caring!
Sharing is caring!
Sharing is caring!

>>43590155
Truly he knows, for that is why he is working on breeding Man to his perfection, to the peak of Human potential. Isn't he truly selfless in his Glorious Endeavour?

>>43590193
>don't support the company that provides support to these companies!

Until DSP gets off their asses and puts out their own core book, you'd better support Paizo.

>>43590215
How about no? Paizo has legions of dicksucking fans to throw their money away at everything the kikes put out. Put the money to the people that deserve it, not the filthy SJWs.

>>43590215
Paizo has enough gross retards gobbling up every single pile of rancid feces they try to sell as rule book.

Although some of the recent books were very good, might buy those, maybe that sends some message or something.

>>43589636
Another option, one I've used before it, a Sohei Monk + Empyreal Bloodline Sorc, Aasimar race.

WIS as primary casting stat, and for dat Monk AC.

Went into Eldritch Knight at third level (before Paizo made their "SLAs don't count as spells" rule). It was pretty solid. Mostly he was a buff person (himself and others) with some utility backup. Decently balanced, too. It loses steam as a build towards the back end, because once you've run out of EK levels there's not much further to go except in more Sorc, but it was perfectly solid through to about level 14.

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>>43590133
>>43590143
>>43590193
>D20pfsrd
Thanks guys, always heard of it but didn't knew I can run stuff with it. Guess I really am a filthy kobold. Still, many thanks.

>>43590239
>Although some of the recent books were very good, might buy those, maybe that sends some message or something.
This. reward good behavior.

>>43590202
>island of 10/10s
>Mengkare makes all important decisions, allowing a life dedicated to leisure and the arts
>makes sure you produce heirs with said 10/10s

Such a terrible life.

>>43590296
Anything you can ever need, you can either find it on the SRD, in the OP post with the pastebin, or you can ask for it and someone will either upload it or direct you to it. You can also find the entirety of 3.5 if you ever want it, too, and it's compatible.

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>>43590296
become a better bold

>>43590332
Truly Menkare is a Paragon of Virtue and Wisdom. He knows best for us and lets us live a life most fullfilled without the worries and woes that those not blessed by his greatness have to face.
Praised be Mengkare in his infinite benevolence and foresight!

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>>43590239
QANON SEZ:

BUY THE BEST BOOKS, SHUN THE SHIT, UH.. SCROLLS. (FUCK YOU IT'S HARD TO ALLITERATE WORDS FOR BOOK)

PAIZO'LL EITHER GET THE MESSAGE, OR THEY WON'T, BUT AT LEAST THE WRITERS WE LIKE WILL GET A FATTER CHEQUE.

OH AND UH BE COOL STAY IN SCHOOL.

So, lads, I was considering how to make mechanical traps not suck because I'm a GM and I'd like my players to be able to do trap-based builds.

Then I had a shower and started thinking up a magus archetype based around throwing bear traps at things.

So, first they get the ability to open bear traps faster and to make beartraps not count as improvised weapons, so they're actually usable as thrown weapons. Then they add distance, wounding, maybe vorpal or something to their arcane pool enhancements. When they use their arcane pool to enhance bear traps the enhancement bonus also increases the DCs to escape it. Cyril: At 3rd level or 5th or something, when they enhance a bear trap they can also choose to treat it as cold iron, silver, or adamantine. At 5th or 7th or whatever, they can also choose to treat it as though it had a specific alignment.

They get bonuses to called shots against flying creatures and get an arcana to make a CMB check to disable flight if a beartrap hits, +5 bonus if they land a called shot against something using natural flight like wings when using that. Given that the point of bear traps is to stay fixed to the target, not sure they want a blinkback belt or something. Was considering letting endless ammunition or something like that affect mundane bear traps so they don't run out.

Ranged spellstrike too, of course. Nothing says fuck you to a flying creature like a beatrap clamping onto their wing while carrying a fireball. I probably need to modify spellstrike or make an arcana or something to allow them to put fireballs on. Also, maybe range increment increasers beyond just distance.

I'd like to know if people think this could actually be viable even if the premise is a bit silly, whether it's fair, what the archetype should give up, and when it should get specific abilities.

>>43590276
>SLAs don't count as spells

The most ignored rule at my table.

How to construct an impregnable wizard's tower?

Permanency alarms and invisibility alarms seem like the first step, as well as judicious applications of symbols of death.

Adamantite doors with arcane locks? Basement full of skeletons?

>>43590721
>Adamantite doors
That just means "LOTS OF LOOT" to PCs. Especially if they steal the doors and fuck off. I suggest looking at glaucite, the hardening spell, or just handwaving.

>>43590708
What you're looking for is the Vauntguard from DDS

>>43590721
Use a wood Collosus as Wizard tower, they are great.

>>43590721
Underground, not a tower.

One entrance.

Cover the entrance in a shitload of deadly traps, symbols of death.

Or, if you really want to go maximum dickmode? Make the dungeon out of petrified Gelatinous Cubes. Put a dispel trap on the loot. Watch the invaders cry.

>>43590758
I'm pretty sure I'm not unless that involves throwing magically-charged bear traps at high speeds into my enemies' faces. The product description makes it seem like a mundane superspy.

>>43590782
Would need to be stone to flesh, not dispel magic, I think, but what's stopping people from avoiding the cubes with flight and/or acid resistance?

>>43590721
Don't forget Forbiddance. Just hire a cleric to cast it.

>>43590799
Because the entire room, floor, walls, and ceiling, are made of them. The spell goes off, the room slams down on them, and they are encased in Cube.

>>43590813
If something was stopping the cubes from collapsing back when they were petrified stone blocks wouldn't it continue stopping them from falling?

>>43590836
No, because now they're ooze.

>>43590799
You get both mundane and magical traps, and the magical ones you can enhance, customize, set triggers for, and even infuse into weapons, projectiles, sheets of paper, food/drink tablets, or set then sneaky like as C4.

Also, full BAB

>>43588625
Any word from ErrantX on whether entering an incorrect email would cause any problems?

>>43590856
Okay, anon, so what kept them up when they were rock? If it was mortar or magic or some shit they'd still be stuck to it.

>>43590868
Neat, answers the first bit. Thanks, even if you're a shill. Still want opinions on the bear-trap throwing, though, if you have the time and inclination to check it out.

>>43590894
Personally, it just sounds like a Card Caster or Eldritch Archer Magus with Throw Anything and Improvised Weapon Mastery. The rest of the stuff is just called shot rules, general Arcane pool stuff, and a blinkback belt. Though I agree it would be better if the Trap rules were a bit fixed.

Also
>Shill
>>>/v/
Heck, imma post screencaps as soon as I get to a computer, just for you. That way you won't have to pay, and if you do the book is only about $2. I already bought a copy legally, so I'm sure DDS wouldn't mind.

>>43589516
When Paizo says "core" they are referring to anything in a hardcover that isn't campaign specific. So APG, ARG, ACG, UC, UM, and UE are all part of Paizo's core product line. Basically anything they include on their PRD.

Does anyone HAVE the Vauntguard?

>>43591011
Yeah, probably, wasn't sure whether the extra stuff merited an actual archetype. And thanks for the screencaps in advance, I appreciate it.

>>43591037
He apparently does.

>>43591034
But a "core only" game is generally just the CRB.

>>43591034
That depends, when some people say "core" they actually mean just the CRB.

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I'm an indecisive fuck who needs to play a frontliner capable of taking a few hits (so good AC or HP) and dealing most of the group's damage.

So i'm thinking either POW or maybe like a Guru. Trouble is I've played so many characters i get burnout when I'm not playing something crazy.

So please, lay on your stupidest and most outrageous builds for frontliners, martial or otherwise. 3pp greatly preferred. Yes I've already played all the crazy 1pp stuff like oradin, monk/druid, Living Monoliths, TWF with that Daemon PRC etc, but if you think you have something 1pp to share go for it.

In return take this picture that i got from here so you probably already have.

>>43591011
Could you just upload it?

Can a witches familiar be changed with Improved Familiar?
I wouldn't think so, since it would essentially be a new familiar disconnected from your patron, but at the same time your patron could have just made a audit or whatever themself to give to you.

>>43591063
Define stupidest and most outrageous.

>>43589047
>It's "Make a bunch of attacks, if you hit, maybe deal damage equal to less than an actual Vital Strike would do, because you don't apply Power Attack more than ones, you only apply static bonuses once, and you need to invest up to three feats in quickdrawing to be able to get your Str to it more than one"

Just out of curiosity, do you know how Vital Strike works? You add your weapon's damage dice to an attack made as a standard action once, plus one additional time for Imp/Greater. So 2d6+16 normally, becomes 4d6+16 on a Vital Strike. It's not even comparable to the maneuver.

>>43591083
Yes. The fluff might be weird, but that's not a rule.

>>43591063
I have THE SINGLE MOST OUTRAGEOUS 3PP CLAS EVER!!! It's ready for a brave soul like you to PLAY IT NOW!!!

www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/voyageur

Outrageously bad.

>>43591099
It's /worse/ than the maneuver.

Post your character concepts.

>an evil or at least neutral Qlippoth Teifling who travels with good aligned parties because it's the quickest way to demon killing

>>43591116
>Endurance and bonus languages
This is not the worst class I have ever seen. It is, however, a close second.

>>43591056
Nothing "depends"; I was just saying that Paizo considers "core" to be any book they add to their PRD. Sometimes that means there are relevant rules that you won't even see if you ignore everything else, like how in UM they retroactively added the [emotion] tag to a bunch of CRB spells.

Out of curiosity, for those people who do play CRB only, why? Do you think it makes the game better balanced? Do you think it's just easier to keep track of the materials?

>>43591120
That would be what I was getting at, yeah.

>>43591150
I still never understood how qlippothspawn are born. Yes, I'm sure there's some weirdo who would fuck a qlippoth. But what kind of self-respecting qlippoth fucks a mortal and creates life? Are all qlippoth tieflings the result of /d/-tier female summoners raping a bound qlippoth?

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>>43591011
>Archer's Guide to Espionage: PF Edition
>Link
https://www.dropbox.com/s/14gd2gdigjkbs1x/TheVauntguard.pdf?dl=0

>>43591037
I do

>>43591040
your welcome

>>43591065
Okay. see above

>>43591063
Taskshaper, get all of the class features you care to write down (maneuvers, spell like abilities,class abilities, whatever) while also being a shape-shifter pretty much.

www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/rite-publishing/taskshaper

>>43591178
But... that's what I was saying, too.

>>43591196
From reading the description, I don't think there's any sex involved at all. It's more like long term exposure, either because someone in your family tree lived in a hut built over a cave where a dormant qlippoth lived, or intense exposure, like your pregnant barbarian mom fighting a qlippoth while out adventuring, mutated you.

>>43591196
I'd assume either strange rituals that make it like you fucked a Qlippoth, or there are more liberal Qlippoths lurking out there.

>>43591089
Gimmicky. Gimmick McGimmick the Gimmick user. Alternatively, obscure interactions that make for a fun build, like TWF Souleater/drinker.

>>43591222
Ah. The original post I quoted seemed like it was trying to argue that Vital Strike was better than the maneuver, which seemed insane. Sorry for the mix-up.

>>43591161
What would be worst?

>>43591264
...But Vital Strike IS better than it, and things earlier in it's own discipline are better than it. It's a shit ability.

>>43591263
Have you seen the 3pp class that's literally the Pokemon master?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/northwinter-press/monster-trainer

>>43591288
>...But Vital Strike IS better than it
How, anon? /How/?

>>43591196
>be someone who REALLY hates demons
>be exposed to a bunch of Abyssal energies while pregnant
>kid is born Qlippoth-spawn

>>43591063
DDS Wardancer
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2a4e36jb829t0uv/WarDancer.pdf?dl=0
Enjoy your lightsaber rave battle dancing and proficiency with ALL exotic melee weapons of a particular damage type

Thats right, now you can defeat your enemies with the Battle Ladder and dance around them because you want no trabble

>>43591290
Have you seen the 1pp archetype for Alchemist that's a Pokemon trainer?

>>43591063
Gamla akasin guru with a fauchard or glaive. 15 foot reach, lots of skill, defensive, and mobility options, plus you can spit in your enemy's face. There's even a feat in the supplemental playtest that lets you spit in their face, knock them down, and then rub their face in the dirt so the dirt mixes with your spit and hardens like cement over their eyes, blinding them.

>>43591288
In what way do you believe Vital Strike is better?

>>43591362
Not literally it isn't. Preservationist is just bottled SNA.

>>43591309
Because compared to anything else available, it's shit. A level 5 Strike, Ruby Zenith Strike, is 100% better than it in every way. The ONLY possible advantage it MIGHT have is crits, and it doesn't even have that, because all the maneuver damage doesn't get multiplied on a crit, just the base weapon damage.

Ruby Zenith? It's a Sense Motive plus your weapon-related bonuses v AC, and if it succeeds, ALL your bonuses are tripled. You can boost it easily with the 4th level boost Noble Blade, for +5 attack and +1d8 damage.

There's absolutely no way that it isn't better. It multiplies all bonuses you get, which flat out is 100% better in every way than MAYBE x4 base weapon damage at level fucking twenty.

>>43591404
There is a feat that lets them use Summon Monster instead you know?

>>43591426
That doesn't matter, fuckwit, it can't be a Pokemon master like the monster trainer can. Read the class.

>>43591290
I own the book, and it is actually really good. The art does a pretty good job of turning traditional D&D monsters like the glabrezu into pokemon, along with a ton of original monsters. The book is like 5% class and archetypes, 90% bestiary, and 5% miscellaneous, like feats, spells, and geography info.

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>>43591116
>Handle Canoe
You know what? Fuck traditional games. We don't deserve good design, I'm thankful for paizo now. It could be so much worse.
>>43591216
I hate that level of bookkeeping. Weirdly though i do have a PDF with Taskshaper archetypes in it, without having actually ever seen the taskshaper before.
>>43591290
Yes, yes i have. I actually don't like it at all.
>>43591333
I'll look at it but I'm not a big fan of dancing. Plus i would just feel inadequate trying to emulate Jackie Chan.
>>43591378
Bullying is wrong anon.

Posting Liber Vampyr (its free anyway) to spread the number of 3pp things anons know of. Its a solid book, except i think there's some typo about revenants getting wis to HP somewhere. I'm sure DSPs vampire thing is fine too though, but i don't know if that is designed to have one vampire PC in a group of non-vampires like this one.

>>43591286
It was something in Dragon that I forgot the name of. Had a similar style of name. I think it's barebones class features featured something really bad like a 7d6 30 ft [mind-affecting] ranged touch attack at level 19. Nineteen, because the capstone was that a demon appeared at level twenty to spirit you away, and your party members could optionally go on a grand, dimension hopping quest to cunt punt it away and give you your life back. Why they would is a mystery.

Special mentions go to Risen Martyr for being tragically misunderstood in regards to "worst class." It's a very Good PrC from the BoED that you enter post-mortem - if you choose to take it, you automatically come back to life, but you have to take all ten levels, consecutively. A couple of its features aren't bad, but its capstone is that you ascend to upper planes to be judged. There is, however, no clause that prevents you from returning immediately in your new Outsider body, which means the capstone is more correctly read "become any Good Outsider of your choosing, for free."

>>43591414
>Not answering the question asked.

How is Vital Strike better than Silver Crown Strike anon?

>>43590098
>>43590158

Perfect balance is a thing that can only exist right out of the gates.

If a game isn't totally balanced at the start, it will never be perfectly balanced.

An example of this is Starcraft, which was perfectly balanced at launch and was able to remain balanced. Another example is Pathfinder, which has released hundreds of books and thousands of edits and is still terribly unbalanced.

>>43591414
I don't think anyone's asking about Ruby Zenith Strike, I haven't had time to compare the two strikes yet so I can't really express an informed opinion, we want to know why you think Vital Strike is better. You keep saying it, but you haven't done anything to prove it, and all indicators are that you are wrong.

>>43591516
They're both shit, so the one available to anyone is better due to availability.

>>43591508
>7d6 30 ft [mind-affecting] ranged touch attack at level 19
Oh, right, that was a used standard action, not an attack action, naturally.

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>>43590296

If you feel money burning a hole in your pocket and you want to give Paizo money for doing the good thing, then I'd suggest waiting for Hell's Vengeance and checking /pfg/ to see just how good or bad it actually is.

>>43591534
>An example of this is Starcraft, which was perfectly balanced at launch and was able to remain balanced.

Ahahaha.... HAHAHAHAHAHA

Starcraft was the most patched game of its era, and is STILL only balanced because the mapmaking for tournament maps has some strict rules.

It turned into something amazing, but it had a real rocky start.

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>>43590332

Anon, it looks great to you because you're looking at it through the wrong lens.

This is Paizo we're talking about, imagine how they feel about an island full of beautiful people who are forced to live a very specific way and become *breeders.*

And not just the 1.2 children they're used to in their special part of the Pacific Northwest, but enough to keep the population stable or growing.

>>43591556
>Even though the strike does much, much more damage, I have an unproven opinion that it isn't as good as a lesser ability, so it's the same as one of the most terrible feats in the game.

I get where you're coming from now.

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How do I dissuade someone from playing an aether telekineticist in a 3rd-level, 20 point buy, "characters are supposed to be optimized" campaign?

What should I bring up as a comparison point? A longbow warrior, a greatsword warrior, a longbow fighter, a greatsword fighter, a longbow ranger, or a longbow Zen Archer monk?

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>>43591637

I miss Silver Crown Strike when I (incorrectly) assumed it meant "roll attack a number of times equal to your total hit bonus. The moment you miss, the strike ends. Add your modifiers per strike."

Not it's just a strike you get at level 12 that's described as "the perfection of your skill" yet feels like a watered down full attack.

>>43591494
but come on, taskshaper goodies

>Shift Condition: You can ignore the effects of any single condition (including death) for a number of rounds equal to your taskshaper class level.

>>43591668
Out of mild curiosity, what race is he playing, and what race and class are the other players playing?

>>43591668
don't, let him suffer the consequences of his actions. It is only through pain that a man can truly learn

>>43591680
Death as a condition has no effects, though.

>>43591637
>Much more damage

Silver Crown Strike
Scarlet Throne or Mithral Current 7th
Prerequisites: Landsknecht 7
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee Attack
Target: 1 creature
Duration: Instant

When this strike is initiated, the landsknecht attacks a single target, but makes as many attack rolls as he can, based on his base attack bonus. He makes the attack rolls in order from highest bonus to lowest, as if he were making a full attack. If any of the attack rolls hit the target, the landsknecht’s single attack is considered to have hit. For each additional successful attack roll beyond the first, the landsknecht increases the damage of the strike by the base damage dice of the weapon. Precision damage and extra damage from weapon special abilities (such as flaming) are added with damage modifiers and are not increased by this maneuver. If one or more rolls are critical threats, he confirms the critical once using his highest base attack bonus –5. For each critical threat beyond the first, he reduces this penalty by 1 (to a maximum of 0). If the landsknecht draws his weapon as part of initiating this maneuver, he adds his strength bonus to damage for every attack roll that would hit as part of the full attack.

You make an attack for Weapon Damage+Strength+Feats+Enhancement+Misc bonuses, with the ability to add extra Weapon Damage based off of the number of attacks that hit. Given that you're an Initiator, you have, maybe, a max of 5 attacks at level 20. Your maximum possible damage with this maneuver is (Weapon Damage+Strength)x5+Enhancement+Feats+Stances+Misc things, assuming EVERY attack hits with your decreasing bonuses. If it crits, you get to do your base damage without the maneuver multiplied by your crit-mod, and then add the rest of the maneuver damage.

Continued in next post.

>>43590619
HEY BRO CAN YOU REPOST THE PAGE WITH THE WACKY GOLD HOTTIES
Y'KNOW THE PLAYER RACE ONE

>>43591668
no
an expert with a bow
that will hit the point home, im pretty sure the maths are done for it already
show him the elementalist in the spheres of power book, its where paizo stole it from anyway, and a very solid option

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>>43591741
Not that guy but here.

>>43591740
Even at the level you get it, it doesn't do more than anything else that you can get. It doesn't even get CLOSE to it for fucks sake. I mean, for fucks sake, it has to compete against Ruby Battle Lord's Strike at the same level, too. Which, to remind you, is a fucking full-attack with full BaB on all attacks, with an extra +2 tacked on.

It's a shit ability.

>>43591745
not sure if serious, or strawmanning. I mean i agree that the kineticist is shit and the SoP elementalist is much better, but that seems a tad like a hyperbole.

>>43591761
Are there any other player races?

>>43591508
The mountebank actually had the demon take you on as a minion and give you the half-fiend template.

Still NPCs you, though.

The text in question:

>Aspect of the Damned: At 20th level the mountebank's soul comes due to her master. She gains the half-fiend emplate unless already one. Her alignment shifts to evil unless already evil. In any case, she becomes her master's willing thrall. She transports to the Outer Planes and becomes an NPC under the DM's control.
>Only a quest to break her pact with her demonic or infernal overlord can free the mountebank from this fate. The exact nature of this quest is left to the DM, but it usually requires a mountebank to defeat her patron or his most powerful minions, render him a great service, or trick him into releasing her from their contract.

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>>43591807
Yes, Shabti is actually a repost from Mummy's Mask (the AP) but there are some new ones. Skinwalker is also reposted but i dont think i saved that.

>>43591805
It's not. It really, really isn't, and we all wish it was.

>>43591745

Expert with a bow got disproven. WARRIOR with a bow, on the other hand, still outdamages the kineticist.

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>>43591834
Ever want to be a Dark Folk? Now you can!

Though to be honest you don't really get any of what makes Dark Folk cool.

>>43591761
>no hair

Their lives really are pain.

>>43591839
sorry, i was just not sure if you were not just buildposter posting a memetic strawman

>>43591823
That could actually be pretty cool if it wasn't "You're an NPC now, but maybe you can continue playing the character after an adventure or two if the other players like you enough and don't have anything more important to do." Half-fiend template in exchange of becoming a bound servant to a demon lord? Not bad.

>>43591862
wow, its the shit version of a Fetchling.

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>>43588633
I know, right. They could have made it something like pic related

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>>43591698

This player is playing a human. We also have an oracle of an undecided race in the party, as well as a house-rule-fixed magus (Eldritch Scion).

The GM allows no third-party content other than their own homebrew material. I am playing a devil-spawned tiefling "sage," one of the GM's homebrew high tier 2 classes, as a dedicated save-or-lose debuffer: http://kindofonfire.weebly.com/original-pathfinder-content/meet-the-sage

>>43588633
But they already made that.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/colossus/colossus-stone

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>>43591862
This race is fishy.
>>43591885
Yeah where is my Rag Armor and Poison Use? Or my SLAs? Why the fuck does my death DAZZLE people? I want to explode like a fireball that does my HD in damage dice!

>>43591864
Buildposter tends not to capitalize, and he's one of the only people here who thinks kineticist is actually underrated. Or at least he used to think that, because he could make a specific build that was less bad. I think I actually saw him start understanding that tiers are not based on specific builds.

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>>43591910
Awesome! I get to be the Sasquat- wait why am i small?

I really don't get why this race was made. I love monkey-men but this one just has nothing special about it.

Still, a strength based small race? That's notable.

>>43591745
Expert has no bow proficiency.

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>>43591940
There isss no race in thisss picture. They are not among usss. It isss not already too late. Everything isss fine.

Rereading the Orang-Pendak, they are a strength based small race that receives penalties to mounted combat. They KNEW everyone would pick that as a cavalier race and had to ruin it for us!

>>43591780
It does /vastly/ more damage than Vital Strike, which was the contention.

To the point though, it looks like if you get one crit, all the pseudo attacks crit, and they're weapon damage, not bonus strike damage, so they should multiply as well, though it might be nice if Elric could confirm that.

To me, it looks like a version of the super powerful pre-nerf Pummeling Style attack, giving you the potential for anywhere from 5-20 times the damage of a single attack, minus precision and weapon abilities like flaming, which would make it much, much better than anything that comes online earlier.

>>43591976
YES
YES
I CAN FINALLY BE GEORGE BUSH

>>43591976
You know, it says they never talk about reptoids to humanoids. Reptoids are humanoids. How the fuck do they have an organized conspiracy with that wording? Yes, if you're not retarded you can tell they meant other humanoids, but the wording still kind of bugs me.

>>43591976
Nice try, buddy, but I prepared True Seeing this morning.

>>43591707
>let him suffer the consequences of his actions

Practicing alone only cements your mistakes, unless the player has someone walking them through the process or calling out limitations/design-flaws they're going to just keep doing the same wrong thing over and over.

That explains the current state of Paizo's design (both fluff and mechanics) policies, actually.

>>43591982
Nope, maneuver damage is never multiplied on a crit, ever. That's been said in the thread repeatedly.

>>43591976
>Rereading the Orang-Pendak, they are a strength based small race that receives penalties to mounted combat. They KNEW everyone would pick that as a cavalier race and had to ruin it for us!

That's what I get out of that. At least there are still wayangs, who are small and don't get a str penalty. One day there will be a legit jockey race. One day.

>>43591991
Obama would be more topical.
>>43592003
It only says they refuse to reveal their origins. Why would a Reptoid not already know his origins? If some Reptoid wasn't already aware of the grand conspiracy he wouldn't be worth trusting anyway.

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>>43591991

>>43591903
Well, if you can't convince him not to play one at all, tell him to be an undead or something.. The Overwhelming Soul archetype converts all burn to negative levels, and undead are immune to them, which means he can burn as much as he wants, and while immunity to nonlethal doesn't apply to burn, you aren't taking nonlethal anymore. I dunno how much that will help, though.

>>43591982

>The maneuver is powerful because it does decent damage on a crit

Oh boy.

Silver Crown Strike is a huge disappointment from the way it's hyped in the PrC and should honestly be replaced by something more useful.

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Surfacedwellers and slaves, what is the best of your puny classes for my people? Laduguer crush you all.

>>43592077
Depends. Paizo Duergar or DSP Duergar?

>>43592077
DUERGAR GET OUT REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>43592031
The ability adds additional base weapon damage + Str, not bonus damage die or the +X from other strikes, and references full attacks more than once.

There's about a paragraph of text you have to ignore for your interpretation to be correct. Instead of throwing a hissy fit and throwing out garbage hyperbole to draw attention to yourself, just ask Elric if the additional base weapon + str damage is treated as weapon damage or bonus strike damage. He may just need to add a clarifying sentence, because I'm pretty sure you're wrong on the intended rules and the RAW could go either way.

>>43592077
Not sure if you mean "most powerful" or 'most fun' but what with fun being subjective and not really race-based I'll go for the former.
Paizo duergar: +2 Con/Wis -4 Cha is okay for non-channeling clerics. Seriously, don't try to focus on channeling with that Cha penalty. Any other type of cleric is fine.

DSP... uh, same as above, honestly, but they only get -2 Cha instead so they aren't as fucked up when it comes to channeling.

>>43592114
Is it added by a maneuver? Yes? Then it's maneuver damage. That's really not that hard.

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>>43592087
My people are too great to be represented by this "Paizo". Though as of late i have noticed nobody stops humming. This must be the work of the Drow.
>>43592088
How can a lowly being such as yourself tolerate the sound of your own thoughts, let alone speech? Its a wonder your family didn't dash your head against the stones.

>>43592147
Are you a dev? No? Then you can't confirm or deny how an ability works. That's really not that hard.

>>43592077
>>43592177
You're pretty much an underground dwarf with a couple of abilities swapped-out, so look for guides involving dwarves. Psychic Warrior and Inquisitor are pretty good options for you, as is (surprisingly) the Unchained Monk. If you have access to Spheres of Power then the Hedgewitch, Mageknight, and Shifter are all good classes for you too.

I'll go ahead and weigh in on Silver Crown Strike.

The RAI is to emulate Mithral Current's original 9th level maneuver, which was a legitimate full attack with all the damage done as a single attack.

Unfortunately, this rewrite came around at the same time as a major backlash about high level maneuver damage. I may have overcorrected as a result.

The language of the strike borrows from Pummeling Charge and the Gunslinger's Dead Shot deed. If the anons of /pfg/ can help me work out a better wording for this strike that meets the RAI without breaking things I'm happy to make the change. But current Silver Crown Strike is much, much better than Vital Strike, and I stand by that.

>>43592177
In my experience with Grippli, they don't exactly take well to others. Something about fearing exploitation. Why do you think they so rarely leave their swamps?

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>>43592266
>>43592177

>tfw I've got a webm that would be perfect for this but /tg/ does not allow webm with audio.

>>43592208
Devs have posted about this before, fucktard.

>>43592290
Is it that one with the small spherical frog, or the large green frog sitting on someone's lawn.

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>>43592131
Sounds as solid as chains, but as exciting as art.
>>43592235
Hrm, perhaps the Psychic Warrior is what i seek. Is there an "initiator" that uses our great wisdom amongst your peoples?

Also I am not just a Dwarf. I resent these accusations, i am a BETTER Dwarf.
>>43592250
Vital Strike doesn't count on you making your attack roll twice at a penalty to deal extra damage surfacedweller.
>>43592266
Weakness is no excuse for fear and stupidity. I'm not sure i would even capture these things, for they would die on the first day of real labour.

>>43592250
What IS the rai, then? An actual full attack?

>>43592290
>>43592319
Sorry, name was accident from another thread

>>43592055
It does good damage normally, full attack on a strike, with the potential for amazing damage on a crit, which it has a much higher chance of doing than other attacks since you're getting up to 5 chances to score that crit. Statistically speaking, on a weapon like a greatsword at that level you should be looking at a 17-20 crit, or a 20% chance, also expressable as 1 in 5 (though yes, I know that that is a gross simplification). You cannot really get an accurate assessment of chance to confirm without a full build, but I think the ability is getting grossly undervalued.

Unless Elric comes in and says that the additional base weapon damage and str mods aren't multiplied in which case it is a bit too weak compared to other PoW options.

>>43592327
Essentially yes. The RAI is "full attack, all damage totaled up so that DR/ER/Whatever is only applied once."

>>43592319
>>43592333

It's this one.

http://webmshare.com/J9yYL

My current filename for it is "needs a name."

>>43592321
Stalker is... alright. I would consider it the weakest of the original Initiator classes.
Mystic, on the other hand, is EXTREMELY good, I'd argue that it's even a low T2 class once you get access to its crafting abilities. It's very magical though so it might not fit your fluff, and the "randomized maneuvers every round" might get frustrating for some people. Otherwise it's a great choice for a WIS-race like yours, especially a +CON one to boot.

>>43592347
Why not just use pummeling style's wording instead of messing with weapon damage at all?

>>43592250
So the additional weapon damage and strength damage are intended to multiplied on a critical hit, just like Dead Shot does and Pummeling Style used to do, correct?

If so, it is fine as is.

Just wondering, is there a reason for the thread pic being touhou allways/nearly allways?

>>43592321
>Vital Strike doesn't count on you making your attack roll twice at a penalty to deal extra damage surfacedweller

It also doesn't provide anywhere close to as much damage, basementdweller.

>>43592250
Literally just copy pre-nerf Pummeling strike, and give it the caveat that it can crit.

Even then, it's competeing with Ruby Battle Lord's Strike, and that's just blatantly better than it in every way. Literally every way.

>>43592321
>Sounds as solid as chains, but as exciting as art.
Pretty much the most common complaint about clerics. They do boring shit well. Without knowing what you think is exciting, I can't help much. The variant-channeling builds can be more interesting, but lolCharisma. Inquisitor is also a solid t3, gets fun shit like litanies to screw with enemies, and is great at what it does. Monster Tactician is even t2, if you care about that.

>>43592393

The same guy's making the threads.

We want some variation but he's apparently very quick at catching a thread the moment it hits the bump limit.

>>43592393
Inertia and 2hufag being quick on the draw.

>>43592372
Pummeling Style that multiplies crits doesn't exist anymore because Paizo decided it was too powerful and confusing. Now it says:
"Whenever you use a full-attack action or flurry of blows to make multiple attacks against a single opponent with unarmed strikes, total the damage from all hits before applying damage reduction. This ability works only with unarmed strikes, no matter what other abilities you might possess."

>>43592372
I'll take a look at pummeling style's wording, but if it directly references full attacks, that's something I have to avoid because of the rules and baggage tied to full attack strikes.

>>43592374
This is where things get muddled. That's the RAI yes. I tried to avoid any wording about the strike applying damage so that this interpretation would still stand, but things have changed since then and I'll need to discuss it with the rest of the PoW crew first.

>>43592406
Ruby Battle Lord's Strike is a full round action, not a standard action, and for all we know it is in the errata list since it is a year one ability.

>>43592469
>for all we know it is in the errata
Elric are you going to errata RBLS?

Anyone happen to know how to do that one Spheres of Power build that basically involves entombing someone in stone?

>>43592491
Don't know yet. I know Scarlet Throne is on the list, but I don't have any specifics beyond that.

>>43592445
>if it directly references full attacks, that's something I have to avoid because of the rules and baggage tied to full attack strikes.

Could you elaborate on this? It seems like it might be relevant to the comparison between Silver Crown and Ruby Battle Lord.

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Trying to stat pic related with DSP material (probably Zweihander Sentinel + a barbarian dip with the Wild Rager archetype). Did a search on d20pfsrd for rage-related mechanics and made myself laugh.

>A primarily sea-faring race, maenads are a dichotomy. To outsiders, they appear to be extremely reserved, yet they are rumored to be exceptionally emotional. Both sides are actually true. As a race, maenads must maintain control over their internal emotional turmoil, except when they unleash these bottled-up emotions in powerful displays. Born with raging emotions that threaten to tear their psyche apart unless properly controlled, maenads do not know why they have these powerful emotions warring within them. Their legends speak of being wronged by an ancient deity that the maenads revolted against and overthrew, resulting in the emotional curse they maintain to date. Maenads have a proclivity to martial studies, as it gives an outlet for their bottled emotions.

>>43592526
I think Guts is actually a Titan Fighter with Titan Mauler dip.
Or something.

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>>43592526
>A primarily sea-faring race

>>43592347
>>43592372
>>43592445
Heres my first ever attempt at maneuver design.
When initiating this strike, make up to a number of attacks equal to your Landsknecht class Level, each attack after the first suffers a cumulative -5 penalty to hit and the strike ends if an attack misses. Total the damage from all hits before applying damage reduction or other defenses. If a critical threat is scored by any hit, roll to confirm the critical hit once at the end of the strike, multiplying the total damage. Any effect not multiplied on a critical hit (such as flaming or precision damage) is applied at the end of this strike after the total damage has been determined.

The rules language will obviously need editing, but i think this creates a stronger and more enjoyable strike worth taking seven levels of a prestige class for.
>>43592398
My point was just that Vital Strike is more consistent, so there's one area in which it beats crown. In my opinion if you lose out in ANY area to Vital Strike, you've failed at design.

>>43592526
I think making Griffith is easier than making Guts.
That said Guts definitly has Powerful Build, so maybe check out Bloodforge.

>>43592586
>7+ attacks as a standard action

Even with the iteratives, holy shit anon

>>43592624
Well the strike ends if one of the attacks misses. I think it's actually a good deal.

>>43592586
>My point was just that Vital Strike is more consistent, so there's one area in which it beats crown. In my opinion if you lose out in ANY area to Vital Strike, you've failed at design.

I think that is an overly simplistic, bordering on retarded, stance. You could just as easily argue that the witches slumber hex is weaker than Vital Strike because the enemy gets a will save and can be shaken awake.

>>43592624

Isn't that what Silver Crown Strike be?

The swordmaster running up to a foe and just slashing the FUCK out of them?

>>43592651

Yeah but the cumulative penalty means you're never going to hit after the third strike.

>>43592624
It rewards people who build for it (piling on hit bonuses rather than damage ones) and makes going that deep into a prestige class worth it.

At this point other people get to activate fifty boosts or two strikes at once or whatever. Don't just compare this maneuver to other maneuvers of that level, compare it to all the class features you traded away to get this maneuver.

>>43592651
Ah, I missed that. That's a tally neat.

>>43592664
If you decide to apply no context to my statement its simplistic. Like if say you decide to compare apples to oranges and compare hexes and attacks.

Not to mention a Witch Hex is equally consistent (in a certain sense, the math on attacks and saves are quite different) to Vital Strike because both involve one umodified roll.

>>43592651
It shows you know nothing about game design. It is the same crappy logic that led to Paizo's terrible firearm and misfire mechanics.

>>43592707
What logic is that specifically?
I can't see any comparison between silver crown strike and Firearms, especially since a misfire doesn't actually end your full attack.

I agree firearms suck, but i disagree its for the same reasons.

>>43592521
The reason that Broken Blade, Primal Fury and (to a lesser extent) Thrashing Dragon are major issues is because they make full attacks very easy to perform and boos the damage of full attacks immensely.

A full attack is almost always a kill, and because each attack applies modifiers individually, the effects are multiplicative. In order to keep the damage under control, you have to limit how much the extra damage is applied.

Full attacks also come with specific wording, and there are specific effect that apply to "full attacks" specifically. It's a mess, like most things. Mostly I just don't want to go through editing PoW and have to go back and do the same thing to PoW:E. I want to get it right the first time.

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>a creature that fails a saving throw
>must save successfully

What the fuck?

>>43592790
Somebody was half asleep and wrote the same thing twice. I think they considered doing it two ways in terms of rules language, one positive (must succeed) and one negative (if it fails) but left both in.

>>43592526
>>43592583
Geez, every part of that description fits Guts. He got horribly wronged by a deity who was also his best friend, his conflicting feelings of undying loyalty and I WILL BURN DOWN HEAVEN TO KILL YOU caused him to develop PTSD and DID, and he copes by channeling all that into berserker rage. And he's been on a ship for the last eight years.

Guts confirmed for maenad.

>>43592790
>An effulgent geode worn or carried by
>a creature that fails a saving throw against [negative energy]
>must [also make a save and succeed], or it immediately explodes

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>>43592790
Where is this from?

>>43592731
The logic behind firearms is that it is okay for a weapon to have an almost guaranteed chance to hit against most opponents by targeting touch AC, because 10% or more of the time the weapon will break or blow up in your face.

The proposed maneuver says "it is okay for an attack to potentially deal upwards of x40 damage, because sooner or later those penalties will prove overwhelming and end the attack sequence".

In both situations you are counting on an unknown variable that can be influenced by multiple outside factors to balance something that is inherently unbalanced.

Does Seize the Opportunity let you initiate Maneuvers on AOOs? Those aren't Attack Actions, but standard actions. Why would i take this?

Also i can ALREADY take Disarms as AOOs inherently, so that's a little redundant to put them in the list of new combat maneuvers you can take.

>>43592820
Eh maenad's also are covered in sparkling crystals and are of elf-like beauty. Not very Guts like.

>>43592845
Page 23 of Black Markets.

>>43592865
Bull Rush, Grapple, Dirty Trick, and Vital Strike are all Attack Actions that can't be used with an AoO (they're also the listed examples in the feat).

My favorite use is with a Warder using their Defensive Focus, and AoO bullrushing people out of their threatened area like the juggernaut.

>>43592850
Your issue with firearms isn't that they are underpowered, but rather they hit too consistently? Its not because things explode that firearms are designed that way, but rather to give them a different feel to other ranged weapons. Not to mention it only does so within 30 feet, forcing firearms users into closer range to reap that benefit. There are a host of design issues you are flat out ignoring here to try and make this logic work.

Also risk/reward isn't bad game design, its EXCELLENT game design. All those unknown and variable factors are what makes the game exciting. Nobody would play if the results were consistent and predictable, there's a reason most people move on from Tic Tac Toe or Checkers.

I understand there can be issues with things being too random, but for this strike there are two important mitigating factors:
A) the hard cap on attacks
B) the consistently dropping chance to hit "normalizes" the damage at much lower than that cap
The whole POINT of this ability and this design is that it CAN 1 in 100 times deliver x40 damage. Its fully intended as a big gamble.

>>43592931
Well you should remove trip as its redundant.
Also combat maneuvers are not attack actions. They are either standard actions like grapple, dirty trick and vital strike or in place of a melee attack like disarm, sunder and trip.

>>43592931
Does this mean i could grapple someone, then use my AOOS to grapple other people off turn?
Then if i had greater grapple etc, i could make multiple grapple checks and maintain multiple grapples?

I always hated the multiple creature grappling rules. One creature STARTING multiple grapples doesn't have any rules to cover it and other creatures piling on in a grapple is just an aid another for +2, which basically means its totally pointless.

>>43592931
Even better, the Fiendbound Marauder on Defensive Focus activating the Intruder's End counter, which ends up allowing to interrupt any charges within his huge threatened zone.

>>43593051
Technically I think you can start start as many grapples as you have arms, you'll just take a -4 for not using two arms unless you take Grabbing Style.

>>43592995
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/vital-strike-combat---final

Per paizo's own ruling, Vital Strike is an "attack action, which is a specific type of standard action." Combat Maneuvers are also "attack actions."

>>43593051
I haven't looked into it beyond whether or not you can grapple as an AoO. Grappling rules are very messy and I don't want to get involved with them if I can avoid it.

>>43592961
I am really not ignoring anything. Misfires exist to balance the reliability of targeting touch AC. Other factors, such as comparatively short ranges and high crit ranges, are what make firearms unique. Misfires as a mechanic can be completely ignored by some characters, while others may never eliminate them entirely, and that is completely dependent on outside factors like race and equipment.

The stunningly stupid proposed mechanic is assuming that you are bound to miss eventually, but that isn't necessarily true. Allies or class abilities that can grant rerolls, mythic tiers, various buffing and debuffing effects, and other factors can help turn every attack in that sequence into a hit. It's not even going to be something that's particularly difficult or which rewards good system mastery.

Risk/Reward mechanics need to be balanced on each side of the equation to even be considered as good game design, and in the proposed maneuver, they simply aren't.

>>43593098
No Elric, they are not. Attack action is a regular attack, go read the combat maneuver rules again, they specify "as a standard action" not "as an attack action". This is a serious rules misunderstanding you have. There are NO combat maneuvers that make use of the attack action, all of them either use a standard action or "in place of a melee attack".

There was even a table in Melee Tactics Toolbox that EXPLICITLY LISTS that combat maneuvers are not attack actions and vital strike IS.

Grappling rules are very clean outside of multiple grapplers. You CMB check which if succeeds applies a condition to both of you and limits both your actions a bit. Its actually really simple. AND THEN MULTIPLE GRAPPLERS COMES IN AND KICKS DOWN EVERYTHING

Question to DMs, would you object to a player fluffing his character as wielding a weapon that can be used one or two-handed(like a long sword) with just one hand, while mechanically holding it two-handed?(No shield other than buckler, no using the free hand for holding stuff, etc, etc?)

>>43593188
Nope. I'd allow it.

>>43593187
I guess it's a good thing I already covered that in the feat isn't it?

>When you make an attack of opportunity, you can use an attack action (such as vital strike) or combat maneuver (such as a bull rush, disarm or dirty trick) in place of an attack of opportunity. You still cannot move when it isn’t your turn.

>>43592961
>A) the hard cap on attacks
>B) the consistently dropping chance to hit "normalizes" the damage at much lower than that cap
>The whole POINT of this ability and this design is that it CAN 1 in 100 times deliver x40 damage. Its fully intended as a big gamble.

A) You can't argue 10 as a hard cap when it's twice what anyone else gets.

B) Only in a vacuum.

>The whole POINT of this ability and this design is that it CAN 1 in 100 times deliver x40 damage. Its fully intended as a big gamble.

Gamble implies you have something to lose (you don't). The whole POINT of the ability is moronic.

>>43593145
Its intended in the maneuver that if allies are granting you multiple bonuses to hit and you are stacking temporary bonuses to hit it will cause the damage ceiling to raise. That's the whole point. If you are using rerolls, mythic surges, piling on buffs etc they SHOULD increase your damage output on this maneuver more than they would a normal maneuver.

The point isn't to reward system mastery (though it does do that) but rather to reward synergy between teammates and expenditure of resources.

I completely disagree, this is a powerful ability that requires fully devoting yourself to a very specialized prestige class. The reward should be far far far far far greater than the risk, with the risk in this case not being there to fuck you over (as it is with firearms) but rather to be something you are fully intended to mitigate or avoid through the expenditure of resources. This maneuver is intended to be five times as powerful as other maneuvers, because other fucking maneuvers don't have anything close to its requirements and don't force you to successfully hit at least three times at iterative penalties to do comparable damage to another strike.

>>43593230
Yes, i know you did Elric, i am not calling you a bad designer. I am trying to clarify this for you so it doesn't cause a mistake one day in a different case, like if you designed some item that activated on attack actions thinking that meant combat maneuvers.

>>43593230
Hey, is there any reason that the Magecatcher Net isn't statted as an actual weapon, but rather some unique item?

What would the price of a Spiked Gauntlet version of it be? Apply the effects to people grappled by it, maybe?

Hey friends, did Bestiary 5 ever come out? Has it been uploaded if it has?

>>43593313
I'll level with you anon. I'm really only about half here today. I'm on some very nice cold medicine because I am sick, but not sick enough to afford to miss a day of work. I'm sorry if I come off as aggressive or misunderstand what you're trying to say.

So sorry for the misunderstanding. I know combat maneuvers aren't attack actions, but somehow misconstrued what you were actually saying.

>>43593342
It's statted as a unique item because... that's how I wrote it? It's meant to function more as a utility item rather than an actual weapon. You'd have to talk to your GM about pricing it for a gauntlet or something else.

>>43593247
Its not twice what a natural attacker gets and TWFers can get 10.

No, not just in a vacuum. Hit bonuses, rerolls and other abilities increase the likelihood of hitting, but unless there's some ability that makes it impossible to miss i don't know of -45 to hit is only going to happen on a 20 for most enemies. Hit bonuses raise the average chance, but the average chance will NEVER hit 10 out of 10 strikes without so many buffs and magical items that you could have done something equally stupid by that point.

You've already lost enough by getting this maneuver. Its a 7th level ability from a prestige class. You can also "lose" something by dealing less damage than an equivalent strike would have, lowering your DPR, that is a loss, however insignificant it is to you.

>>43593384
Ah, that's cool Elric. We all make mistakes conveying what we mean.

What do you think of the three times if not more powerful version of silver crown anon proposed?

How does Myrmidion compare to a 9th level initiator? The loss of 3 levels of manuevers seems like a big hit, what does fighter give, to replace that? Especially since the PoW initiators are pretty solid to begin with.

>>43593459
I don't think it's the right direction to take the maneuver.

>>43593484
>
Myrmidon is a decent T3. They can spend feats on advanced training to get 9ths, have truly ridiculous amounts of skill points between Lore Warden and a couple other things, and overall fight and out of combat fairly well.

Slightly weaker than the full initiators, but pretty damn fun.

>>43593484
The compare the same way that 6th level spellcasters compare to 9th level spellcasters. A good example is Hunter vs Druid in that sense; you've got someone with less world shattering power, but they have extra abilities to make up for it. Yes they're technically weaker, but they're still keeping up with the group.

>>43593484
You still have full initiator level, so any maneuvers you get through feats, PrCs, etc. are the same as what an initiator class could get. Yes this was intended by the designers.

>>43593596
Can confirm. Am designer.

>>43593484
You can get the new stuff like Advanced Weapon Training too since Myrmidon doesn't touch Weapon Training.

Brutal Slayer stalker seems... strong.
AC and Reflexes from strength? Gnarly. It doesn't even seem to trade anything away.

I'm all for something that values strength rather than handing out even more stats to Dex, which is pretty much the best stat to start with, but is this meant to be that much better than the regular Stalker?

>>43592790
wait it asks for undead to make a fortitude save. what the shiiiiiiiiit

>>43593484
>>43593516
>>43593524
>>43593596
Threadly reminder that it's been said that the only reason that the initiator archetypes don't have 9th level maneuvers is product identity, and that houseruling them to get full progression won't do anything to actually fuck up a game.

>>43593709
class identity is a different thing from product identity yo

>>43593733
Doesn't really matter, they should have 9th level maneuvers either way.

>>43593390
>You've already lost enough by getting this maneuver. Its a 7th level ability from a prestige class.

A 7th level ability from a really good prestige class, that in many ways is better than what you could get without taking it. You do not lose anything when you select mechanics that support what you already wanted to do. Thinking otherwise just emphasizes how little you know about the subject.

>You can also "lose" something by dealing less damage than an equivalent strike would have, lowering your DPR, that is a loss, however insignificant it is to you.

The more you talk the more clear it is that you do not know what you are talking about. You're not losing by taking a prestige class that makes you better at what you want to do, and you aren't losing anything meaningful when your comparative worst case scenario is "still do more damage than any non-initiator".

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So is there actually a way to murder things by rolling around in PF, or...?

>>43593662
It trades a little bit of damage off of deadly strikes (weird, I know) for better defenses (again, weird) and accuracy. I was really careful with the math though and Brutal Strikes scales at roughly the same rate as Deadly Strikes.

Considering how heavily DEX invested base stalker is, Brutal Slayer seems like a solid alternative. I haven't heard too many complaints but if there's something you can point out as an issue, please let me know. It's flown under the radar a bit.

>>43593765
Get trample, the overrun maneuver, something similar, and fluff it as rolling around.

>>43593765
>>43593813
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/elephant-stomp-combat

:^)

>>43593709
What about the polymath alchemist though?
>Suddenly, 9th level initiating and 6th level 'casting'

>>43593906
It's Alchemist. That's really not gonna break anything.

>>43593749
Non-initiators dealing shit damage isn't the initiators problem, Initiators have never really been comparable to any but the best of martials.

Honestly, this is outright better than a martial's full attack most of the time, as the only advantage they have is they can still make more attacks if they miss one. But i didn't design it thinking "gee, what will the barbarian think" i designed it thinking of what Glabrezu will think.

Even if you say there was no opportunity cost in any of the rest of the prestige class, this is the ONLY class feature for that level of the class, so it is trading out at least one class feature to acquire.

I'm not saying the maneuver isn't dealing amazing damage IF you get more than four attacks off (which isn't statistically likely against CR appropriate enemies) or if you get at least two and a crit. But i don't see an issue with people expending several temporary hit boosters (because you can bet permanent ones aren't getting you the +20 on top of "usual" hit bonuses you'll need to consistently get above 4 hits) or working with their allies to produce a result far superior to a regular strike.

You keep ignoring that there is a very real resource cost in the uses per day, actions of other allies, spell slots or PP for buffs, consumable items etc required to get all these amazing hit boosters that will push the damage of this ability to those insane levels. A guy power attacking with a Tetsubo has a less than 5% chance of critting and when he does that he usually takes out the creature. This is no different.
>>43593769
Honestly its the kind of thing I'd have to play to make that judgment. It looks off, but in play might actually be fine. Are you really that dex invested if you don't use stealth?

I suppose its not like you get initiative or ranged attack bonus, so you aren't totally stealing dex. I just thought it was a little odd that it doesn't trade anything away, but odd doesn't mean overpowered necessarily.

>>43593926
It was already one of the stronger initiating versions of the core classes, bringing it up to 9/6 feels like it has a big head and shoulders over a lot of stuff.

Well, I guess it can still only choose from three disciplines.

>>43593749
>>43593964
Also if its just the one threat for all crits that bothers you (which is where quite a lot of the potential damage comes from) then say that. Right now all I'm hearing is that you don't understand hit chances and don't understand resource and opportunity costs at all. If you take out the crit thing then EVEN IF you got all 10 hits (which is next to impossible with iterative penalties unless everyone on your team takes time out from what they do to layer you with buffs) you'd only be dealing as many hits as a natural attacker or TWFer build does at level 16.

>>43593964
Base Stalker is heavily DEX based. And they make frequent use of stealth because Veiled Moon is one of their core disciplines (for which Stealth is the discipline skill). Stalkers are light armor, dual wielding, crit fishing machines.

>>43594083
I guess. I just don't see them as needing TWF. After all most of the time you'll be using strikes, so the off hand attacks from TWF just won't exist unless using thrashing dragon.

The light armor and veiled moon thing is a good point though.

>>43594083
can a warsoul with Discipline Blade Shapes and thrashing dragon create twin ranged weapons?

like say you've got weapon adaptation:pistols or something even, if need be.