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Sauron did nothing wrong. The elves and men were basically asking

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Sauron did nothing wrong. The elves and men were basically asking for it, being fucking inefficient. What about those pansy numenoreans? Fags. Every last one of them.

He should've not died, I wish he could return.
>>
>apologists
how edgy
>>
Get back in your stepdad's APC.
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>>37171170
What's wrong with being inefficient? If you're happy then that's all that?
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Weak ass Sauron Apologist. Here's how you excuse the TRUE MASTER of MIDDLE EARTH.
Sauron deserves to rule. The Valar have abandoned the peoples of the world for their Undying Lands, holding them selfishly until the Final Days. Sauron stayed, because he cared. He's not some corrupt madman out of Numenor here to conquer and demand tribute - indeed, all Sauron values is Loyalty and Obedience. Keep the fruits of your labors! Sauron needs them not. His soldiers need them not. The Elves? Selfishly holed up in their woods, unwilling to share their wealth with the true masters of the world - Man and Orc. The Dwarves are no better. Let both flee to the West, if they will, but Middle-Earth belongs to Sauron alone, and Men are his instrument!
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>>37171170
>no orc women
>sauron was a buttfag
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>this is what 4th age Gondorians actually believe
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>>37171393
>Dwarves fleeing to the west
U wot m8?
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>>37171425
>LaughingMaiar.moth
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>>37171393
Nice Speech.

Where does my Adventuring Party Sign?
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Everyone knows how much you wanted to bang Mairon, Curumo,
acting like you liked him for anything other than his "one ring" won't fool anyone. Too bad I already pounded him with my hammer of the underworld. Your orcs were nice, but you're just not equipped to fill the void, and you'll never be the dark lord's dark lord.
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>>37171170
>numenoreans
>inefficient
>>
>being inefficient
How is this this even a standard for deciding on genocide?

I mean... How do you calculate it? What metrics do you use? Whar do you judge it against?
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>>37171666

It's very simple. If your society can't generate enough arms, armor, and people to use them to fend off a gigantic horde of orcs, you deserve to be wiped out.
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>tfw you will never get to gaze upon the beauty of Sauron.
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>>37171688
this is a good point
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>>37171322
Careful anon, too many neckbeards here think in order to be satisfied with life you have to be as arrogant and ambiguously industrious as possible while ignoring why industry develops in the first place.

AKA a bunch of retards.
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>>37171688
Good thing the people had enough arms, armor, people, and fucking magic to fend off a gigantic horde of orcs.

I think you forget who LOST in LOTR m8.
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>>37171792

Fuck agriculture. Lets move onto dirt-eating.
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>>37171853
You're one hell of a special boy, you know that?
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>>37171813

The won one battle. If it hadn't been for their ring longshot, and getting lucky with gollum falling in, they would have been wiped out by the orcish tide.
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I would make that exact same face if I had my own orc infested molten wasteland to rule over.

I wonder how much it would cost to buy Australia and then explode it.
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>>37171972
I just want to command orcish hordes to loot and raid in my name.

Do you think some orcs actually liked Sauron? I think some did. He couldn't have been so bad, could he?
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>>37171972
>orcs already included in the purchase.
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>>37172247
I think they hated him
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>>37172790
That's only because orcs hate everything.
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>>37172339
>>/pol/
Go take a long walk off a short cliff
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>>37172945
It's a joke m8. Stop being such a whiny cunt.
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I want to run a LOTR game but I don't know when to set it.

I was thinking maybe the second age, but I don't really know how much an adventuring party would fit there.

I would also like Sauron's servants to be of importance.

Maybe between The Hobbit and LOTR? Or during the conflict with Angmar?

Any ideas?
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>>37173744

It didn't get off the ground due to certain thematic differences, but I sketched out a bit of a campaign set around the main trilogy, where the party worked for the Blue Wizards, stirring up trouble in the far east. Something like that could also put you in contact with some of Sauron's bigger people, vying for the favor of scattered easterling tribes.
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>>37171945
It's believed that eru illuvianar did that
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>>37173744
I've thought about doing it sometime in the Fourth Age off in the East, with the party recruited by The Blue Wizards to help take down a new threat to the safety of Middle Earth(still figuring out what that threat would be though)
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>>37173776
That's interesting. Although I've never actually liked the blue wizards, nor have I found them interesting per se. But the lands of the easterlings could be a great place for adventure.
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>>37174101
The fourth age is also interesting. I'm particularly interested by black numenoreans rising and trying to claim power, through dominion of some orc tribes or something.

Also, orc strongholds, orc warbosses or something like that, would be interesting.

The good guys party could even consist of easterlings and haradrim trying to prove themselves in the eyes of their newly found western allies.

Conflict in between orc tribes would also be great.

Maybe a resurgence of Sauron/the Nazgul (that thing about the Witch King's cry which was never again heard during that age of man... seems intriguing, maybe he could somehow return?)
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>>37174148

Word of God is that Sauron is reducted to a helpless spirit, able to do no more than project a sensation of malice when you're alone in the woods. As for the WK, you're really reaching. The Ringwraiths are kind of tied to the ring, and with that gone, so are they.

And while orcs probably exist, don't forget, especially without some big maiar to drive them, their natural cowardice means they're pretty shit at fighting, which is probably going to leave them at the mercy of whatever humans are around. I mean, hell, they already live in pretty marginal areas and wastelands, and that's with Sauron beefing them up.
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>>37174148
>>37174224
I'm still trying to figure out a plausible leader for the villains unfortunately, best solution I've got at the moment is a human warlord tapping into forbidden lore to gain the might needed to boss around the various dark creatures of his part of Middle Earth
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>>37171415
Don't you mean boypussy?
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>>37174148
>>37174224

I'd say it would be possible for Sauron to return if he ever found something to give him back some strength.

>>37174901

How about someone stealing secrets from Saruman's library?
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>>37176883
I was thinking either that or said warlord making a pact with the dreaming corpse of Ungoliant(who was basically Tolkiens version of Cthulhu in many respects), which is granting him incredible power, but also means that if he succeeds he'll end up giving Ungoliant the strength needed to awaken once more and thus Arda will end up being devoured by an unstoppable Spider God
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>>37174148
The 'newly found western allies' are the dudes that subjugated their people for thousands of years until a bigger bully gave them a taste of their own medicine.
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>>37176950

You could easily make it a very much alive Shelob. The text says quite clearly that she survived the immediate encounter with Sam, and it's not clear what happened to her.
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>>37176883
But what could give him that strength?

I'm also in favor of that option. He regained power 2 times by himself, he was killed and regained power, something no other Valar or Maiar has ever done. He's fucking badass
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>>37178366
But Shelob does not have the same power level as Ungoliant
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>>37179638
But she makes a good conduit for ungoliant's legacy and magic, teaching a different sort of evil than Orc-lore, being of miasma and ichor and evil flesh, as opposed to black iron and pounding hammers and callous order
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Did melkor or aule invent uranium? Lead? Brimstone? Quicksilver? Does the superiority of gold to silver count as a victory for Kim?

Was mold an invention of melkor? Does that make cheese part of his portfolio? Yogurt? Wine?

What are meteorites in the setting? They exist, as evidenced by the creation of gurthang, but where do they come from in the first age, where there are no celestial bodies. Are they melkor's? varda's? Some ainur in the timeless halls just dicking around?
>>
Why is it that Gandalf doesn't know what the Balrog is but Legolas does?
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>>37180325

What are you talking about? As soon as he sees it, Gandalf knows what the Balrog is. But he doesn't come into direct contact until just before the bridge. He stays behind at Mazarbul, casts a spell to lock the door, and then feels something magically forcing it open, and then the chamber collapses from the opposing spells. He knows it's something very powerful, but he hasn't seen the Balrog at that point, so how would he know what it was?
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>>37178774
Maybe over time? It could take ages though
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Daily reminder that Sauron is in Middle East.
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>>37180448
Yes I suppose you're right.
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Is it true that Ungoliant was more powerful than Ancalagon?
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>>37171945
Amd maybe if Sauron hadn't put all his eggs in one basket, he wouldn't have been slapped down like a bitch by a trio of hobbits unable to stop infighting.
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bitch please

>>tom master race
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>>37180725
Ungoliant was the most terrible thing to ever be seen on middle-earth.
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>>37171393
>keep the fruits of your labors
>Elves and dwarves need to give us all their shit
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>>37180725

Morgoth himself couldn't take Ungoliant one-on-one.
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>>37171591
Was that meant to be read as a rap? Because I read it as one.
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>>37173744
>Maybe between The Hobbit and LOTR?

That's the base time setting of The One Ring RPG. Which is pretty good, go give it a look. It has several adventures and a campaign and setting sourcebooks out for it as well.
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>>37181794
I think that system's quite complicated, but just for the looks of it. Is it worth learning?
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>>37180617
You'll find that "Power" in Middle-earth is finite, and when you use it you usually don't recover it. Morgoth couldn't fight off the Valar at the end of the First Age, and was seriously injured by a single elf, even though earlier he could fight off all the Valar single-handed. Feanor couldn't make any more silmarils, etc. It's therefore improbable that Sauron could ever recover.

Even though it seems like Sauron is recovering during the Third Age, he's really just recovering his armies and worshipers, not his own personal power. He starts off very powerful in the First Age, eventually loses his ability to shapeshift when he dies the first time, then loses his ability to take physical form at all after the second time, then finally loses all his potency completely in the end.
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>>37181899
It's actually fairly simple I've found, there's just a lot of different aspects of character creation to keep track of.
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>>37182009

> then loses his ability to take physical form at all after the second time

Read the books. Sauron has a physical form in the third age. Gollum, among others, has seen it.
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>>37181899
Not really that complex, though combat is a bit unusual.
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>>37171853
potatos?
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>>37181111
I don't know man, female orcs...
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>>37182097
isn't that the red eye form?
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>>37182278
No, that's a magic spell he has going too.
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>>37182278

No. We get specific mention of how he only has nine fingers. And when Pippin is watching the battle for the Causeway Forts and talking with Gandalf, Gandalf admits the theoretical possibility of the Dark Lord coming to the battle, although doesn't think he will as long as he has slaves and minions to throw first. And in the Appendixes, when it talks about the ancillary battles, it mentions how there was a "power" in Lorien, and the only way the baddies could have beaten it was if Sauron went forth to battle personally.
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>>37182097
Sorry, you're completely correct. I constantly forget the thing about the Black Hand. However, Tolkien did say that it took Sauron longer to reform each time, as doing so drained his inherent will, and that after the Third Age he would never have enough power to do it again.

I suppose you could fudge the canon and say that he could do it again, it would just take an incredibly long time, but Sauron's real power was his ability to corrupt orcs and men and make them do what he needed doing, and if his mind control powers are as reduced as Tolkien indicates, I don't think having a physical body wouldn't help all that much.
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>>37182290
>>37182290
Right, I have to read the books in ages. Pretty interesting stuff,
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>>37182278
ainur and certain elves have a way they look in the physical world and a way they look in the spiritual world

the eye is probably how sauron looks as a spirit. it's not mutually exclusive with having a physical body. frodo sees it when he's wearing the ring, eg. when he's in the spirit world.
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>>37180725
Ungoliant nearly ate the Devil. Literally the only reason he survived is because the simirils burned his hands so badly that he screamed and scared her off.

This scream was so fucking loud the region was named after it.
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>>37182409
>>37181436
>>37181111
There's really no reason to imagine that Ungoliant is anything but a Maiar. It's often been pointed out that Sauron at the end of the Third Age was more powerful than Morgoth, because Morgoth had spent all of his power imbuing the earth with evil. Seeing as this was after Morgoth had spent a great deal of his power, it's no great shock that a very powerful Maiar could beat him in a straight-up fight. Also, if we go by the published History of Middle-earth, there weren't more than seven Balrogs. So we can safely say that Ungoliant is not as powerful as them. Also Ungoliant had just gorged herself on the sap of the Two Trees. I'm not sure if that had anything to do with it, but it couldn't have hurt.
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>>37182491
Sorry, meant to say Sauron at the end of the First Age.
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>>37182491

Except the text doesn't go with that. For one thing, the Silmarillion states that the Eldar don't really know what she is and where she comes from, when they do know about the origins of the Ainur.

Secondly, look at the interaction between the two when they're on their little treekilling and silmaril stealing expedition. Morgoth is the more powerful of the two when they set out, he's the one that kills the trees, attacks Formenos and steals the jewels. It's only afterwards that Ungoliant emerges as the more powerful, when she wants the loot. Maybe Morgoth was investing some more of his power in other things, but we don't see him at it, it's likely the change isn't because Morgoth is weakening, but because she devours the rest of the non-silmaril jewels in Feanor's hoard, absorbing their light and becoming huge.


And that certainly isn't a maiar trick.

Plus, while I don't want to go digging through it, I'm sure there's some mention that she came from the Outside Darkness, where there isn't supposed to be anything. She seems to be on a similar order of weirdness as Tom Bombadil.
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>>37182491
And to think that Sauron was originally one of Aulë's Maiars.

Tulkas best Valar
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>>37182532
>It's only afterwards that Ungoliant emerges as the more powerful, when she wants the loot. Maybe Morgoth was investing some more of his power in other things, but we don't see him at it, it's likely the change isn't because Morgoth is weakening, but because she devours the rest of the non-silmaril jewels in Feanor's hoard, absorbing their light and becoming huge.
I'd blame her power up on the light of the two trees and the wells, myself.

Either way, her light nomming made her stronger than Melkor, for a time. I think it's what got her in the end though. She OD'd on the Light.
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>>37182604


Tru dat. As for her end, I know in some versions, although I think they were overwritten, Earendil kills her, and in others, she devours herself in her last hunger.
>>
>>37182290
>>37182350
He's never described as an eye in the books. There's one brief mention of a red star seen over the treeline, shortly after the spies of Saruman fly over, but no one refers to it as Sauron and if it was a giant flaming eyeball seen from that distance there would be more mentions of it as they drew closer to Mordor.
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>>37183225
so the red eye is a completely Peter Jackson thing then?
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>>37183347

It's the emblem on his banner. And the WK talks about taking Eowyn back to Barad Dur to stand before the red eye in eternal torment.

But as a big flaming eye hovering over the dark tower? Yeah, that's pure hackson.
>>
>>37183225
no, he's totally described as an eye.

>Far off the shadows of Sauron hung; but torn by some gust of wind out of the world, or else moved by some great disquiet within, the mantling clouds swirled, and for a moment drew aside; and then he saw, rising black, blacker and darker than the vast shades amid which it stood, the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-dur. One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed.

i'm not saying it was stuck on top of barad-dur all the time like in the movies, and most people wouldn't be able to see it anyway because it only exists in the spiritual world (the same way the nazgul are invisible unless you're wearing the ring). but by that point frodo is under the power of the ring to the point where the line between the two worlds was blurring, which is why he talks about seeing "the wheel of fire...even with my waking eyes" as they approach mount doom.

it's the same as when he sees glorfindel in his shiny glowy form at rivendell. it doesn't mean glorfindel looks like shiny and glowy to everyone, that's what he looks like in spirit.
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>>37171591
>you're just not equipped to fill the void

You know all about filling the Void, don't you Jail-crow? Maybe if you come crying and begging to big brother Manwe (again) they'll let you out on probation.
>>
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>tfw you just want to bring peace and order and prosperity to the world, so you come up with a strategy to win over the Elves, Men, and Dwarves

>tfw you go to the elves of Eregion to teach them crafting-lore and help them make a bunch of really cool magic rings

>tfw their leader Celebrimbor, to whom you had been nothing but kind, stabs you in the back and ruins your strategies by making 3 Elf Rings in secret

>tfw those traitor elves try to steal all the rings for themselves even though you made them together

>tfw you go to politely ask for your rings back and they attack you for no reason

And Sauron is supposed to be the "bad guy" in all this???
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>>37183710
You enjoying my old cell feanor? It's so roomy out here, with no terrible relatives to harass me for forever and a day for MY mistakes. Tell me you'd honestly prefer your weekly visits from finarfin, bunking with Eol and Thingol, and neinna's anger management classes
>>
>>37183710
>implying Manwe was the elder of the two
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>>37183875
>"win over"
>create secret master Ring to dominate the wills of the other wearers and bind them into eternal servitude

Yes.
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>>37183875

>tfw years later the armies of Numenor come to conquer your lands

>tfw in order to prevent the needless killing of your loving subjects, you surrender to them and go to their homeland degraded and in chains

>tfw they actually see the reason in your ideals, and you become a close advisor to their king

>tfw under your advice they sail West to go ask the Valar why the Elves get to dwell in the land of the gods and live forever, while men are doomed to die. A perfectly reasonable query imho

>tfw God Almighty decides the most reasonable course of action is to sink the whole island (even though they never really posed a threat to the Valar in the first place) murdering all of them. Even the women and children who had nothing to do with it. And destroys your body, locking you for the rest of time in a hideous form

>tfw the Men and Elves decide to gang up on you even though you've done nothing but try to help them and Eru Iluvatar has just committed near genocide against an entire race of people

>tfw in an incredibly unfair and one-sided fight, Elendil and Gil-galad gang up on you, and then Isildur comes by while you're totally helpless and mutilates you and steals your magic ring

#NOJUSTICE4SAURON
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>>37174901
What about Saurman? Trying to return to the realm of mortal men and Bitch at everyone for doing shrooms or smoking pipeweed
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>>37184447
Didn't he smoke it too? In a vain attempt to be like Gandalf...
>>
>find "Black book of Arda" story translation
>incorporate bits into world's backstory somehow
>don't tell your players
>mess with them
>>
>>37184447
Pretty much the same problem as Sauron in that "canon" he's not supposed to be able to return afaik. But Sauron was able to come back from destruction a few times (before he lost the ring) so you could say Saruman somehow figured out the same trick. Also,
>implying Saruman didn't secretly love pipe-weed
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>>37184518
He did.

However, I love the idea that as magical powers wane in the world battles between good and evil spirits will become more civil, humble, petty, and entirely hobbitish in tone.
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>>37184763
>tfw you will never see Saurman get stoned and use the Palantir to watch weird shit.
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>>37185111
>"haha, oh dude. I swear you guys I see a fucking flaming eye. Oh man it's so cool. It's like I can hear it talking to me. Damn this is some dank shit"
>>
>>37185265
You know, we can totally ignore and revile Shadow of Mordor for it's hack shit but there was one particular point that I really like that they put in the back story and that is that Saruman was using his orcs to spy on Mordor for the rest of the White Council (without telling them he was using orcs by the by) for a long time before being corrupted by what his spies brought back.
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>>37185307
Explain further please. His orcs? How? Before being corrupted?

Also, Sauron returning SHOULD be canon. Best fucking character ever.
>>
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>>37185111
>watching elrond talk to his portrait of elros when nobody is around
>putting weird ideas into thranduil's head when he's drunk
>forcing grima to cook snacks
>watching cirdan trim his beard, as he does it with an absurd amount of ceremony after thousands of years
>telling grima about "ancient lore" he just made up off the top of his head
>watching orgies in far off umbar, and being freaked out when strider walks through one on a mission
>peeping on galadriel's backup plans, for if she ever goes the way of her uncle, snaps, and takes over the world
>>
>>37185419
Saruman had his own tribes of orc that he coerced/enslaved/parlayed into serving him separate from the Mordorian breeds. You discover through finding lore items that he sent his orcs into Mordor to find out everything Sauron was up to and his spies came back with pieces of Sauron's infernal little devices and Saruman decided to go into the industrial game himself and then corruption happened after Saruman started trying to spy with the Palantir.
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>>37185424
>>putting weird ideas into thranduil's head when he's drunk

So like...all the time? I don't imagine he did much besides drink, hunt, and order elves less fortunate than him who can't party all the time to protect the realm.
>>
>>37185424
It's such a fantastic setting that we won't get any more real stories out of until after Christopher kicks it, and that's only if whoever has the reigns of the estate after Christopher isn't as poisonous as Christopher.
>>
>>37185486
hopefully christopher finds a ring of power and lives for many, many more years so we don't get a repeat of the hobbit fiasco
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>>37185111
"Oh Man, is that tree trying to talk to me?"
>>
>>37185486
>>37185503
>implying Christopher-sempai has any power to stop people making movies and games
>implying I give a rat's ass about what the estate considers "canon"
>>
>>37185537
I don't give a rat's ass about movies and games.

I want books, bro. Licensed books with the full stamp of approval of the estate written by good authors who actually care about filling in the gaps.

Not having Celebrimbor set out to ghost forge another Ring.
>>
>>37185486

To be fair, this is his father's life's work, and also personal stories that he used to share with his kids.

Think about all your favourite video games as kids, and then think about how the current generation is "ruining it". That's sort of how Christopher feels, I reckon.
>>
>>37185424
>laughs his ass off as galadriel demands that celeborn put on a fake dwarf beard before sex
>sees thranduil drunkenly try on one of his wife's old dresses
>watches with horror and disgust as Gimli son of Gloin braids his chest hair
>watching some hot Elf-on-Elf action when Grimi walks in the room. He quickly changes the palantir to an Uruk football match
>>
>>37185560
Then you will not get any happiness until after Christopher bites it, and even then you will not deserve it.
>>
>>37185594
No wonder everyone with palantiri go insane.
>>37185603
He'll die soon and I'm young and patient. I can wait.
>>
>>37185475
Yep. There's been hundreds of years of peace, so I'd assume every member of the white council has some sort of hobby, especially cause their realms practically run themselves.
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>>37185655
He's Thranduil, son of Oropher, of unknown but noble lineage tracing all the way back to Doriath. Probably descended from a third son of one of Thingol's greatest nobles.

He knows well how they partied down in the First Age, before the Years of the Sun even began.
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>>37184225
tomato, tomahto
>>
>>37185655
Well cirdan builds boats on his off time, galadriel plots world domination and fucks her hubby senseless, gandalf gets high, makes backyard fireworks, and adventures, radaghast trips balls and gardens, and elrond takes care of (what he likes to imagine to be) his brother's kids and looks for maglor
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>>37171170
Read Jacqueline Carey's Banewreaker. It is exactly what you are saying here. It is about a god who gave a gift to mortals and the other gods think the gift is too much and shun this god for it. So there is a war on him, the only people who help this one god are races like trolls who identify the whole shunned angle. It's a fantastic two books but it really made me depressed at times, because, like LoTR the humans and elves win...but everyone you care about in the books die...I had to put it down for days when a certain being died.
>>
>>37185419
Why should that be canon?
>>
>>37185855
Oh, and thranduil tries to drink himself into a coma
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>>37185924
You can't hunt deer when sober, can you? It is up to elves of Mirkwood to control the animal population. And then eat their delicious meat.
>>
>>37185887
It would be fun
>>
>>37171170

> Sauron did nothing wrong

He murdered my wife and son! I will not rest until Celebrimbor and I have our revenge! If we must turn every uruk war chief against the dark lord, or forge a new ring, then so be it.
>>
>>37185981
>shit_that_never_happened.exe
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>>37186026
>>
>>37185981
>>37186026
>>37186082
If it had just been some Assassin's Creed like guerilla campaign to cause slave insurrections throughout Mordor and Nurn with the ultimate goal of bringing your battered warband to safety it would have been a lot better.
>>
>>37185981
To celebrimbor, you've somehow managed to come off looking like more of a fool than your father and grandfather, and done the impossible by managing to further sully the name of the house of feanor. You're not only to blame for your own death, but two hole ages of strife, beating grandad's record for fuckups with even less to show for it.

To the Edain meat puppet, just die, you'll like it much better. The doomsman calleth
>>
Sauron is of the Anti-Numenorean Genocide agenda.

He fought the Numenoreans as they carved their way across Middle Earth, slaughtering and raping and killing. He brought them low at great cost, being horribly crippled such that he had all beauty taken from him, a noble sacrifice for the end of the evil Numenoreans.

They lie and claimed he had corrupted them, when they were already corrupt.

He defended the Orcs, the Rhun, the Haradim, the privateers of Umber, the dunlendings.

He fought for their rights against the Numenorean apologist Gondorians, against the invading Rohirrim, against the culturally dominating Elven threat.

Sauron was the hero Middle Earth needed.
>>
>>37186192
>just die, you'll like it much better
That's what he wanted to do for the vast majority of the game.
>>
>Daily reminder that the Noldor did nothing wrong.
>>
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>>37184297
>>37186246

>Still, you refuse to give up and after some time you've recovered enough of your power and army to retake the lands that were unjustly stolen from you. You even ally yourself with some wise, sensible Men from the East, who agree to take up your cause

>your soldiers run into a "Gollum" who claims to be familiar with your Ring. You let the poor wretch stay in your fortress for some time, while politely asking him about its location. You discover its with a "Baggins" in the "Shire"

>So you send your agents out to the middle of bumfuck nowhere to inquire with this "Baggins" about your missing item, intending to offer him a reward for its return. The people they find there are incredibly bigoted and refuse to cooperate just because the Ringwraiths look kind of scary.

>it's still really important you get your Ring back. After all, it's a powerful magic item. In the wrong hands somebody could really hurt themselves with it.

>You find out a gang of miscreants, including that nosy old jerk Olorin and the descendant of King Elendick himself, are traveling with your Ring, probably intending to abuse its power to set himself up as King of Shit Mountain in Gondor.

>uh oh
>>
>>37186632
I do recall there being at least one nasty bit of business back in the day, involving some boats and Teleri. But who's counting, right?
>>
The funniest thing is if Sauron had ridden out, walked up to Frodo and said "Gimme the ring, now" he would've done it in a second.
>>
>>37186246
And that's why we pray for the return of our Savior, may the fourth age bring him back alive once more, let's ride once more and raise our glasses for our lord Sauron, King of Middle Earth, Master of All Things.

He's just regaining power, trust me
>>
>>37186707
Much like Morgoth after his fight with Fingolfin, it looks like Sauron was afraid of issuing into battle again after being ganked in the last war.

And much like how Morgoth probably would have won the War of Wrath if he'd fought with his army, because even without him it was a very near loss and he was still mighty even if greatly lessened, Sauron fucked shit up.
>>
>>37186636
>still posting this tumblr shit
>>
>>37186707
True, the thing is he actually didn't know about Frodo.

Imagine how he felt when he found out. It's like you're playing a RTS and you're stomping the shit out of the enemy's army and economy, just masterfully controlling everything, and suddenly you get an invisible spy back at your base, who bombs the fuck out of everything and suddenly you just lose.

Too cheap. Cheap faggots.
>>
>>37186834
Yeah, right up until the last second, he didn't realize they were actually going to destroy it. Then he goes into full on panic mode, but by then it's too late. I think it's the only time in the narrative where we read what's going on in Sauron's mind.
>>
>>37186893
I must be crazy but everytime I watch the movies or read the book again (mostly watching the movies, don't know why, in the book I don't get exactly the same feeling) I find myself wanting Sauron to find out earlier, or ways in which he could've prevented it.

Fuck, I sometimes wanna play a LOTR game in which Sauron gets the ring back somehow, and the game would be about PCs trying to take him down again, or guerilla warfare to resist until the Valar can send some more help (Glorfindel alone is not enough)
>>
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>>37186636

>That traitorous buffoon Curunir, who has been only pretending to be your ally for some time now, fails to even betray you and is defeated by a bunch of talking goddamn trees. What the fuck?

>In desperation you send your army into Gondor to prevent these poor fools from misusing your Ring and endangering themselves, but they pull some bullshit deus ex machina out of nowhere and rout your army

>They follow your forces to the Black Gate, where you masterfully outmaneuver them. Finally, something goes right for once! And here you were worried that they were going to try to use your Ring against you.

>Oh wait, a couple of those malevolent little imps from the Shire snuck into your territory and brought the Ring to Mt. Doom. Somehow they trick Gollum into swan diving like an idiot into the lava with the Ring in his hands. Welp.

>You are destroyed forever, left to wander the lands as a melancholy disembodied spirit. Without your benevolence and leadership, your armies are routed and the forces of Evil re-establish their tyrannical Empire under King Elessar. There is no justice for the wrongs of the past. There is no happy ending. Middle-earth is plunged into a darkness from which it will never recover until the end of time.
>>
>>37186961
> the game would be about PCs trying to take him down again

The Council seemed pretty sure that the free world was fucked if Sauron got his Ring back. Then again the council failed to realize the Necromancer was Sauron, so they have been wrong in the past.
>>
>>37185981
Why there are no trolls or, dunno, Easterlngs in this game and why did they add those edgy pseudo-giant monsters and fucking ghouls instead
>>
Mordor ain't free. Middle Earth gota be littered with the blood of the "Free" Peoples. Aragorn "ELESSAR" aka STRIDER is not my king. he is shaemful ranger, filthy human and probably from rhun as well. :DD SAURON and ring not aragorn and KING ok. Ash nazg durbatulûk.


Can't be assed to mspaint.
>>
>>37187073
Because the game is shit. Plain and simple.

>>37187062
Tolkien also said no character is omniscient. Also, I'd love to make a 4th Age Sauron returning, but it's not fucking canon at all, and it would probably be horrible. Can't really find a way for him to return without raping Tolkien's memory.

An uchronie on the other hand, is much more plausible
>>
>>37186961
>Fuck, I sometimes wanna play a LOTR game in which Sauron gets the ring back somehow, and the game would be about PCs trying to take him down again, or guerilla warfare to resist until the Valar can send some more help (Glorfindel alone is not enough)

FFG publishes books for a fantasy setting that can be appended to most of your fantasy RPG games which basically is not-Middle-Earth after not-Sauron wins.

Or could be interpreted as the years when Sauron/Morgoth was winning everything errywhere. Either way, the setting book isn't too pricey and might have good ideas for you.
>>
>>37187163
And it is?
>>
>>37187163
Here it is
http://fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite.asp?eidm=226&enmi=Midnight%20Second%20Edition
>>
>>37187073
The no Easterlings thing is probably trying to avoid accusations of racism. Wouldn't look good in today's climate if the white protagonist went up against a bunch of brown-skinned Morgoth-worshippers. As for all the weird monsters they made up, who the hell knows.

>>37187137
You mean for DMing a Middle-earth game? Afaik it's only in Tolkien's letters that he confirms beyond a shadow of a doubt that Sauron can never return (like you said, Gandalf claims it's impossible but no character is omniscient). So unless your players are way more into Middle-earth than just "read LotR and maybe the Silm" you can come up with reasons for him to return, or to at least influence the world after the Ring is destroyed.
>>
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>>37186962

>Wandering around as a disembodied spirit for years. Weak as fuck

>Hundreds of years after you were fucked by those petty people, you feel and hear something inside a forest.

>It's a cry. A cry of a hopeless human. You get near him. He's asking for wisdom and power in his time of need.

>He needs you as much as you need him. You find yourself surrounding him with your spectral presence, and speaking the words that he needs in his ear.

>You suddenly feel a spark inside you. It's small, but it lightens you up a bit.

>Is it just you or the man feels much more comfortable now?

>He starts asking for your advice for everything, until he's litteraly dependent on you. And by now, you control his every move. You can even start feeling parts of yourself, as you move around.

>Is this going where you feel it's going?

>You remember again the men who betrayed you, and fucked you. Only resentment is left. They will remember. They will pay.

>And you will rise again.
>>
>>37187229
They could've used the Variags from Khand mentioned at least once in the books, iirc their name is based on some Germanic people so there would be no problem with making them white and getting rid of the potential problems with racist implications.

Though at the same time there's the Mongolian interpretation of Khand in GW's LOTR game which is kinda cool and I wouldn't like to see it replaced with more viking lookalikes in anything related to Tolkien, as much as I dislike GW otherwise
>>
>>
>>37187318
I think they were pretty dead set on using orcs as the main enemies of the game, probably so you felt a little less guilty about slaughtering them indiscriminately in a variety of ways. The nemesis system makes a little more sense with orcs too, it's hard to imagine a human coming back from some of the shit you do to them in that game but with orcs it's like, "Stabbed through the brain? Slap a metal plate on your head and keep on truckin"
>>
>>37187270
How about Sauron possessing bodies of animals, and returning to his days of old?

Before possessing people, or regaining physical form
>>
>>37186632
what? did I hear kinslaying?
>>
>>37187270
This should be made into an RPG campaign
>>
>>37186109
Lorewise maybe. Gameplay wise fuck you branding orcs was great fun.
>>
>>37171170
Bitch, shut up and start shining my armor. Or take the shape of a bitch and get my dick in your mouth. DO IT. NOW!
>>
>>37187828
Good luck with that, Sauron was even more powerful than Melkor. Also, every desicion Melkor made was shit
>>
I'm reading The Silmarillion again and: did Feänor succeed where Melkor failed in making living things?

>"Yet that crystal was to the Silmarils but as is the body of the Children of Illúvatar: the house of its inner fire, that is within it and yet in all parts of it, and it is its life"
>>
>>37187955
I think he bottled some of the pure soul energy light coming off of the trees more so than making it.
>>
>>37187955
I read that as more of an explanation that the material of the Silmaril was just a vessel for the Light, which is what made them special, like how the physical body is just a vessel for the soul. Not that the Silmarils literally had the Flame Imperishable.
>>
In the middle of the fourth age a momentous rediscovery was made. In the vaults of the grand library of Umbar, the finest and eldest city of men, that one of the most influential pieces of literature in the history of the west was found. Often counted to be of similar value to the original red book of westmarch, Treatise on Society is perhaps the oldest written thing in existence, predating umbar, and possibly even numenor itself by many millennia.
This volume concerns every aspect of society, containing lengthy discourses on leadership, government, war, law & justice, etiquette, family matters, love & sexuality, child rearing, etc, as well as numerous philosophical diversions and musings on topics of value, morality, knowledge, utility, and aesthetics, and finally, numerous strategies of incorporation and implementation of the sublime principles therein. taken as it's parts, this book is an unprecedented encyclopedia of civilization, but as a whole, the book might theoretically be used as the basis of an apparently functional utopian society.
The treatise is not printed on paper, but what appears to be wafer thin sheets of mithril, beautifully illuminated with paints of unknown composition. It's cover, also mithril, is engraved with worn gold, in a verse reading "by the shining lamps on high, may all glories be brought to sight, may all ills be set to righteousness, may all things fair be done".
It bears no signature, save for a pseudonym that when translated reads 'the fair'
>>
>>37187911
>Sauron was even more powerful than Melkor

lel
>>
>>37188131
At that point, he was. Morgoth was the weakest he ever had been after the duel with Fingolfin, and Sauron thence ever the mightier.
>>
>>37188131
At the end of the First Age, he actually was. Truefax
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>>37188131
Melkor's power kept diminishing because he was a crazy asshole and wasted it on petty destruction, where Sauron conserved his (at least in the beginning). Tolkien confirmed in his notes that Sauron was "greater" than Melkor by the end of the First Age.
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>>37188118
More on this.
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>>37188176
>>37188177
>>37188193
Well shit, beaten like Feanor in a gang of Balrogs. Anyway, the relevant quote:

"Sauron was "greater", effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. [...] Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently "incarnate"; for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.

Sauron, however, inherited the "corruption" of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate. In this way Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the "Music" than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things."
>>
What the hell was Sauron doing for all the time Melkor was in the hallsof Mandos?
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>>37188366
I don't know, what do the Valar, Maiar and elves do with their immortality? Probably pursuing some creative projects or enjoying nature or something.
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>>37188410
>Sauron
>Enjoying nature
>>
>>37188450
He was still more decent back in the day. Or maybe like, underground nature. Great beasts under the world.
>>
>>37188366
Either doing absolutely fuck all...

...or inventing orcs as a welcome home present for Melkor, who he "adored." If you take one of Tolkien's unpublished essays from History of Middle-earth as canon.

>>37188450
I am enjoying the mental image of Sauron sitting by a river, drinking a beer and fishing
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>>37188343
I was thinking it'd be cool to make up an artifact reflective of sauron before he fully fell and lost sight of his purpose, back before he joined melkor, or at least before he went crazier than tom bombadil
>>
>>37188450
Volcanoes and badlands are nature too.
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>>37188526
I imagine he kept it safe throughout his time in middle earth, finally hiding it in the foundations of umbar when he went off to numenor, and trusting in its secrecy in its hiding place afterwards, until long after his defeat it is discovered by humans, who's historic memory is too short to understand its significance, or even connect it too him.
>>
Did Sauron invent money?
>>
>>37188631
No, but Melkor invented gold.
>>
I wanna run a campain where the players are orcs and trolls, running around doing orc things and fucking shit up.
Anybody have any idea what age I should set it in?
Also, is there a good system to use for this?
>>
>>37188692
Not Aule?
>>
Here is a Middle Earth game that I made a while back. It deviates from canon in some areas, but efforts have been made to retain as much of the flavor and world-mechanics that Tolkein used in the various books.

The Forces of Light
http://pastebin.com/nFRK7Sna

The Forces of Shadow
http://pastebin.com/Dht3xVjh

Magic in Middle Earth
http://pastebin.com/fMs2EdsB

Beast Guardians and their enemies, the Thralls of Morgoth/sauron
http://pastebin.com/GsF2Hmpg

All are set to expire in 1 month.

Important: This is set during the first ages period, not the much later lord of the rings period.
>>
>>37188699
I was going to do the same, but in a redeemable way, not just shenanigans and destroying stuff, but actually trying to survive in the 4th Age
>>
>>37188699
Use this, if you like. >>37188773

Sadly, I made it for a gaming group that ended up dissolving, so I never actually got to use it.

Orcs and trolls are discussed in "Forces of shadow".
>>
REMOVE ELVES
>>
>>37188981
thanks man.
Now i will blow you
>>
>>37188526
>>37188624

That's awesome.

I'm thinking about this... WHAT IF, he devised a plan B for everything, in case his ring was somehow destroyed. Sauron was known for good planing and wisdom, so it's not impossible.

What if he had created a book which told all that stuff you're talking about, about building a utopia. Everything legitimately good, and leading to the construction of a perfect society. But around the book, there would be some indications to do some apparently random shit, or some things that actually make sense according to the plan, but just seem pointless.

What if that stuff was something designed by Sauron to bring him back in case he lost his body?

What if it was made to create a perfect society, but also bringing him back in the process, so nobody would suspect a thing?
>>
>>37189035
return to Vailinore. to are Noldor cousins you may come to Khazad-dum,, you can live in zoo...AHAHA
teleri kinslaying best day of my life, I take a bath of dead TEleri
>>
>>37189078
>WHAT IF, he devised a plan B for everything, in case his ring was somehow destroyed. Sauron was known for good planing and wisdom, so it's not impossible.

Their entire plan was based around Sauron being unable to conceive that anyone wouldn't just take the ring for themselves, and would lack the will to destroy it.

He was right, really.
>>
>>37189078
A series of footnotes in the chapters on philosophy on how to make 20 rings that could perform fun tricks.
>>
>>37189078
>>37189078
A "reset to factory settings" for his fea would be right up Mairon's ally.
>>
>>37189159
"And the final step for making your Ring of Invisibility and Absolutely Nothing Else: Inscribe the proper runes on the ring, and recite the following secret code phrase aloud: ASH NAZG GIMBATUL..."
>>
>>37189266
Krimpatul.
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>>37189159
the book idea post made it predate the rings by a long time, and evil magic rings will probably be embedded in the myths of men for quite a while
>>
>>37189344
>implying it wasn't something he had on the backburner for a long time
Sure, somebody might read the Red Book and The Fair Book try to put 2 and 2 together, but would they ever suspect ill intent from such a fine artifact?
>>
>>37189177
during the fourth age sauron became the dark lord of a much smaller realm, that being the artifact book chamber go the library of umbar, where he spent most of his many long centuries willing people to read books (with some success), so that he might read them over the person's shoulder, as he had beed rendered incapable of turning the pages. the rest of his time he spent ordering moths under a totalitarian regime against the clothes of any westerner staying in the neighborhood of the libraries
>>
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>>37172945
>defending abos

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwww
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>>37174901
The Mouth of Sauron's fate is never spoken of in the books, anon. He probably rebuilt his own strength in the far east. At least, that's how I'm running it for my group.

Anyone got good info on the factions outside of Gondor and Arnor? Like, Rhun, Khand, Harad?
>>
>>37189504
There isn't much canon about Rhun beyond that there are great realms that never touched western middle earth outside of sending troops to Sauron's wars, the vast majority of the dwarves lived there and the remnants of the avari elves did too.

Presumably Cuivenien still existed at the foothills of the Orocarni and the blue wizards did fun stuff there too.

Go have fun, it's a mostly blank page.
>>
>>37189546
>There isn't much canon about Rhun beyond that there are great realms that never touched western middle earth outside of sending troops to Sauron's wars, the vast majority of the dwarves lived there and the remnants of the avari elves did too.

That sounds like a place for adventure. Dwarves, elves, men, politics, history. What more do you need?
>>
>>37189411
more that it wasn't a plot, at least when the book was first made, and he had taken it with him when he left for utumno, and it detailed the vision he wanted to enact, and eventually lost sight of.
I'd think the very act of reading the book would empower him, and enacting the plan even more so, but it would be also activating the longest dormant parts of him
>>
>>37189177
Sorry, don't know what you mean.

>>37189266
>>37189159

Well, not something THIS obvious, but a lot of things that seem unconnected between themselves, and relate to the other stuff that's in the books. Knowledge about the stars, astronomy, architecture, art, philosophy, farming, industry, blacksmith, and many more.

I don't really know what could that be, but maybe building something? And then piecing them all together?

Maybe the book could be an instruction for a person only, to have a fullfilling life, or to tap into the secrets of the black magics without knowing so. Maybe he hopes for an ambitious person to read it, and wait until that person wants to gain more and more power, eventually leading to his return.
>>
>>37189449
>so that he might read them over the person's shoulder

My God. Even in death Sauron is a monster.
>>
>>37189147

People keep saying this, it's not really true. Sauron wasn't right. It wasn't "He didn't think anyone would be able to beat that last ditch effort of the ring to keep you from throwing it into the volcano"

He thought that anyone who got the ring would USE the ring, and was quite afraid of even someone like Aragorn having the ring, and using its powers against him (probably to break up his alliances with the various humans in his service)

After all, even if he's cast down and another dark lord rises in his place, while the good guys might lose, Sauron loses too.
>>
>>37189623
Fea is the elvish word for soul/spirit/mind/self, fea-nor = spirit of fire etc.

Mairon was Sauron's name in the beginning, much like Olorin for Gandalf and Curunir for Saruman.

So it stands to reason that if any maiar were to make a device to bring himself back from the brink via the clumsy intervention of mortals, it would be the maia of Aule that was Mairon.
>>
>>37189546

But anon, to Cuivenien there is no returning.

And while it is true that 4 of the 7 dwarven houses were in the Orocarni, Durin's house seems to be a lot bigger than all the others, and all of the dwarves seem to move around a lot. I'm not so sure that the majority of the dwarves are still around over there.

And I could have sworn somewhere that I read the avari died out. Can't think of the source though.
>>
>>37189627
>He thought that anyone who got the ring would USE the ring, and was quite afraid of even someone like Aragorn having the ring, and using its powers against him (probably to break up his alliances with the various humans in his service)

He also knew that anyone but another Maiar and some few elves would likely be corrupted by it. I mean, he'd have been fucked if Gandalf took the Ring, but if Aragorn did I think he might have won still.
>>
>>37189546
>vast majority of the dwarves
what

explain
>>
>>37189662

Oh, thanks. I knew about Sauron's actual name but not about fea, and didn't know what you mean by resetting.

How do you think it could be done?
>>
>>37189667
>And I could have sworn somewhere that I read the avari died out. Can't think of the source though.

Bro, the Silvan Elves are Avari, with Sindarin rulers. They might be out there still too. Only a bit, I don't think anything as big as the Woodland Realm exist anymore, but smaller hidden realms like Lorien might.

I find it amusing how despite all the glories and wisdom of the Noldor, and even the martial power of the Sindar, it is an Avari kingdom which is the last great elvish realm of the West.
>>
>>37189743
Less wise but more deadly appears to have been the winner in the race.
>>
>>37189696
I know it's in one of the letters, but I don't have a copy of that (when I read it, I borrowed it from a friend and have since returned it), but Tolkien talks about what could have happened if one of the good guys used the ring against him. Only one of the Ainur, Gandalf, Saruman, and likely Durin's bane, could have even theoretically used the ring to grapple with Sauron and kill him personally.

Then he talks about the elves, and it's weird, because we see Elrond and Galadriel do things that seem to be beyond Gandalf; I'm not sure if it's that they have less power and he's holding back, or it might be that they just have the wrong kind of power, but Tolkien is emphatic, (without really explaining why) that even an elf lord of the third age couldn't grapple with Sauron and kill him. But they could break his power, throw him out of Mordor, and kill all the orcs.

And while Aragorn isn't mentioned, he's got a high strength of will, and a loyal following, and the will to hit Sauron instead of just waiting for his own to be attacked. And Sauron is terrified when he sees Aragorn and the king of the Dunedain wrests the Palantir away from him. I think it's very possible that Aragorn as ringlord could have beaten Sauron in war.
>>
>>37189743
They were at the first sundering, but the Silvans are formed of the Teleri who started marching west and stopped at some point along the way (not counting the Sindarin, who had Melian to learn from. And the Falathrim seem to be in their own little class)

Like I said, I can't remember the source, but I'm pretty sure that the elves who stayed around Cuivienen are gone.

>I find it amusing how despite all the glories and wisdom of the Noldor, and even the martial power of the Sindar, it is an Avari kingdom which is the last great elvish realm of the West.


Well of course. Look at Legolas. Elves who see the sea get a restless longing to go west, and leave. It's not a question of power. It's not even a question of reproduction. The elves who have the sea lore, and have heard of Valinor, have mostly decided to go there by the end of the third age.
>>
>>37183395

Film is a visual medium, dude. They used the Eye to visually-quantify Sauron. It wouldn't go over so well do just have him in a film as just this vague, malevolent spirit that infests Mordor. No, it's not 100% book-accurate, but it worked very well. Trust me, the only people that would like a 100%-accurate film are Tolkien autists.
>>
>>37189906

Or, you know, you could actually like show Sauron, with his actual body. Which he had. They had a lot of fun with that giant steel masked guy for the intro at the Last Alliance. Bring it back, maybe make it look suitably battered.
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>>37189886
I'll be honest, there's a lot here that I find confusing. I guess the Avari maybe went west or died out the old fashioned way and went west via death teleport to Mandos.
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>>37189867
so we were given an idea of what sort of totalitarian sauron would grant, and likewise with gandalf. what would the dark queen galadriel's realm be like? my theory is that she essentially becomes evil pagan melian, with celeborn as her boy-toy, all dolled up to appear like thingol.
>>
>>37189938

I think a massive eye sitting in an equally-massive tower that can see over almost all of Middle Earth is much more impressive and adheres to his character as a powerful and effective, yet chained and restrained supernatural being than just some dude who's basically the same one that got his ass kicked by Isildur except less powerful. Why do we care? "Oh, okay, so it's basically the same guy as in the prologue except shittier, just send Aragorn to 1v1 him and be done with it". You really can't physically fight the Eye of Sauron.

Not to say that would be a valid complaint, but it downplays his threat level.
>>
>>37189725
4 of the 7 houses live in the tributary branches of the Orocarni
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>>37190037
Mardi Gras Kali?
>>
>>37190037

Didn't you read the books? Galadriel says it herself. A queen, terrible and beautiful as the morning and the night. Fair as the sea and the sun and the snow upon the mountain. Dreadful as the storm and the lightning. All will love her and despair.


Throw in what the elves want, and it's obvious. A dead, unchanging realm. People will live and die without ever going more than a few miles from their home, worldwide. Galadriel holding court with the remaining elves in Middle-Earth, with heavy doses of ring mindfucking to make them all essentially her puppets. Other people to provide essentials, and fry their brains if they have an independent thought, or one that isn't about how great Galadriel is.
>>
>>37178774
>he was killed and regained power, something no other Valar or Maiar has ever done
Uh... didn't Gandalf kind of do something similar?
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>>37171170
Son, I am disappoint.
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>>37190121

Eru sent him back personally. He didn't come back of his own power.
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>>37189737
In Numenor Sauron ordered human sacrifices. The same might happen again if this weren't an earlier version.

Hmm. You know how Washington D.C. was designed to be in the shape of a big masonic symbol?

Maybe Mairon left plans for a city to be constructed in the shape of a giant eye, and the very center of that eye is a temple and a smithy, and there shall ye kindle flames, and make ye works of metal of beauty unsurpassed by those of any other race, and burn there in the forges offerings to a radiant spirit; and the grander the offering the greater the beauty of the works there made, and in kindling the forge with life-blood to refresh the secret fire of that which burns at its heart, the Taminheru, where some swear there at times now flickers for the blink of an eye a light unfed by wood or coal, but these are dismissed - merely cinders caught in the flue falling back from the chimney and sparking off from the heated walls.
>>
>>37190059

What makes you think he's "chained and restrained"? Sauron can and does move around, just not often. Did you forget he was in Dol Guldur around the Hobbit? There's nothing keeping Sauron at home except cowardice, and maybe confidence in his slaves that they can get the job done for him.

And this is my problem with it. Yeah, it's visually impressive, but it sends a message. The wrong message about what Sauron is and what he can and can't do.
>>
>>37190121

Not without help from God he didn't.
>>
>>37189627
He was still right. Frodo wasn't refusing to throw the ring in, he was taking that shit for himself.
>>
>>37189624
>AND AN ETERNAL CURSE OF MOTHS UPON THE SWEATERS AND TROUSERS OF THE FREE PEOPLES, UNTO THE END OF TIME!
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>>37190143
>chills
>>
>>37190129
Now news came to Hithlum that Dorthonion was lost and the sons of Finarfin overthrown, and that the sons of Fëanor were driven from their lands. Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angband's gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.
That was the last time in those wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for though his might was greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear. But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains; for the rocks rang with the shrill music of Fingolfin's horn, and his voice came keen and clear down into the depths of Angband; and Fingolfin named Morgoth craven, and lord of slaves. Therefore Morgoth came, climbing slowly from his subterranean throne, and the rumour of his feet was like thunder underground. And he issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the King like a tower, iron-crowned, and his vast shield, sable on-blazoned, cast a shadow over him like a stormcloud. But Fingolfin gleamed beneath it as a star; for his mail was overlaid with silver, and his blue shield was set with crystals; and he drew his sword Ringil, that glittered like ice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aB6CPyO0Ww
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>>37190176
Then Morgoth hurled aloft Grond, the Hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder. But Fingolfin sprang aside, and Grond rent a mighty pit in the earth, whence smoke and fire darted. Many times Morgoth essayed to smite him, and each time Fingolfin leaped away, as a 'lightning shoots from under a dark cloud; and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry of anguish, whereat the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay, and the cries echoed in the Northlands.
But at the last the King grew weary, and Morgoth bore down his shield upon him. Thrice he was crushed to his knees, and thrice arose again and bore up his broken shield and stricken helm. But the earth was all rent and pitted about him, and he stumbled and fell backward before the feet of Morgoth; and Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck, and the weight of it was like a fallen hill. Yet with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot with Ringil, and the blood gashed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond.
Thus died Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor, most proud and valiant of the Elven-kings of old. The Orcs made no boast of that duel at the gate; neither do the Elves sing of it, for their sorrow is too deep.
>>
>>37185560
>who care about filling in the gaps
Tolkien's works were stories told be a not-necessarily-reliable narrator. They're legends and myths.
>>
>>37187137
The one ring was destroyed but not the power contained within. Have Sauron spend centuries slowly finding the embers of his former power, spread throughout the world
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>>37190157

Yeah, but Sauron never even conceived that anyone would get that far. He was 100% sure that Aragorn had the ring, and was dead wrong about the good guys plan up until the last minute.


Honestly, I think he was relying less on the ring's supernatural pull and more on a general assumption that everyone wants power and will move to take it, given the means.
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>>37185471

But that's totally wrong. Saruman was already partially corrupted after returning from the east, although we don't know what happened there exactly. The palantir didn't help but it wasn't the sole cause like it is stated in the movies.
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>>37190229
Not that anon, but at least get more myths and legends without them being essentially fanfiction, scorned, or like that ridiculous Russian book where it's another stupid proletariat revolution thing.
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>>37190145

Not physically. Just gimped in terms of power. The Hobbit films as bad as they were,put to rest the idea that Sauron was confined to Mordor, as it was obvious it was him that was hanging around Dol Guldur. Although I suppose it was a valid complaint with the films a decade ago.

The Eye is more a symbol of even though he's greatly reduced in power, he can still influence areas beyond Mordor. I thought it worked very well in the films, seeing as Saurons's potentially-implied restriction to Mordor really wasn't a factor there. It just bugs me regarding the legions of "hurr durr hackson did something that wasn't 100% as described in the books".
>>
>>37190194
Owned!
>>
>>37188450
Now I want to see second age Sauron skipping through meadows.
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>>37190296

Gimped in power, sure. But he's still the single most powerful figure in Middle-Earth at the time, with the possible exception of Tom Bombadil. Maybe he's not up to eating entire armies anymore, but there was some worry in Gondor that he would personally arrive to take command of the siege, and the appendixes declare that he could have made the attack on Lorien succeed if he had been present.


Honestly, I think the only thing keeping him in Mordor was the "evil is cowardly" thing that Tolkien was on about.
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>>37190257
The Last Ringbearer is the best fanfic ever fuck you.
>>
>>37190143
and there, among the glorious, joyous rejoicing of men, in the finest city to ever devised, given plenty by the rich volcanic soil of the plane stretching out before it, in the shadow of the bountiful mountains, wrought by the art of centuries of men, was made a statue. the great artisans of men did cast of mithril their ancient patron, the fair philosoph. tall and lordly they made him in stature, and of lofty countenance his pose bespoke, and his face was sweet and beautiful to look upon. their design was to set the visage of their fair parton upon a great plinth in their plaza of arts and sciences, but lo, when the adamant form had cooled, it did move with grace, and speak. and thus begun the new era of yet greater wonders
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>>37190143
Fucking love this idea.

Creating a symbol so big, so powerful, in which offerings are made, without knowing, to him. This could partially restore his power, little by little.

And
>>37190231
Maybe everyone would come from around Middle Earth to see the marvelous things made in the forge. The masterfully crafted weapons and armors, the beautiful rings, torcs, necklaces made by the smiths. And everyone would leave offerings at the temple, and the city would grow

But how could he regain physical form? Would he have instructions on the book on how to create something like a golem? Something made 'to serve' the forge, something made as a working statue, something akin to industry?

Or other stuff? Maybe through power he could build his own body, as he did when he died twice before, slowly, day by day. Maybe he could even regain his fair form
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>>37190456
Just what I thought! Although maybe a metal body is a little bit too much?
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>>37190474
this would do for a new body>>37190456
either mithril or rock cut from the quarries upon oroduin
>>
shadows of mordor
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>>37190474
Perhaps their simple worship and adoration for such crafts would help him regain his body. Their 'worship' of the craft from his book. Slowly, he would leech strength from this until he could be reforged himself
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>>37190456
are you alluding to the new city being built on the plane of gorgoroth, or at least mordor?
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>>37190577
I liked it.
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>>37190555
>>37190474
>>37190650

I'd fucking love to write something like this. An RPG game is one thing, but writing a book, a continuation on TOlkien's world is another thing completely.

God, how I wish this was made canon.
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>>37190865
Just write it then. Tolkein can't stop you
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>>37190865
I fully agree, I'd love to write a book of this, but I'd be the first to admit that this story is pretty far from the spirit of Tolkien's work, unless this is all a prelude to a fall.

despite that, I love it, and really hope this idea doesn't die with the thread
>>
Everyone discussing LotR roleplay: http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/131351/The-One-Ring-Roleplaying-Game

Hell, I might even be able to upload a pdf, I just need to double check for watermarks
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>>37191028
Well it can be the new Mordor.
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>>37191042
isn't that terrible though
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>>37190989
Well he can't, but copyright actually kind of can.

>>37191028
It won't, don't worry. I just started a draft about it. Some random dude doing searches in the ruins of Barad-Dur to find stuff to sell, and just happens to find a book in one of the deepest rooms.

I know it maybe rapes Tolkien's lore, but I don't really know... fuck I love Sauron, and the idea of him returning is awesome. But I'd like to be faithful to his work.
>>
>>37191082
No? You're thinking about the licensed one made by the people who made a licensed Star Trek game. They had a kind of shitty universal system and made tie in games for movies and all.

There were a few unique ideas in it, but not like...a good system for them. This is a decent system.
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>>37191133
This one is tied in to the books more tightly, I meant to add.
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>>37190429
Why is it good, exactly? Third party here, sell me on it.
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>>37191111
it should still be cared for, very deeply, and in a place of honor, though long unopened. maybe there should be the dusty remains of an uruk honor guard
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>>37191162
It fucking isn't. It's pseudo-soviet claptrap that strips the setting of every important thing that is ironclad canon.
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>>37191162
It's part spy novel, part "you think you know the tale, well here's the truth." and it's well-written. You get a feel for characters and it humanizes the orcs enough where they aren't random baddies to be killed by heroes but people.

it's a deconstruction of certain aspects of the universe, and it's pretty entertaining
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>>37191250
it's a fucking fanfiction essentially, you want to read a sequel to LotR write your own. it treats the red book of westmarch as propaganda, which isn't far-fetched given that it has an unreliable narrator/ narrator that isn't omniscient
>>
Here's a copy of The One Ring's core
https://www.mediafire.com/?vqvq2qd4zuq2ztg
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>>37191250
The latter isn't so bad in fanfic, since you can go do whatever the fuck you want there. But yeah, shitty writing is its own problem. And I honestly think The Last Ringbearer gets a bit up its own ass really, the author is so enamored with his spy game shit that he fails to notice it is bogging down and generally ruining the experience.

I don't really recommend it.
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>>37191252
But the Orcs aren't Orcs, they're just humans called Orcs. And all of the morality is flip flopped. The Witch-King is the benevolent ruler of Angmar, Aragorn is a wife-beating power usurper, the Gondorians are the slaves of the Elves in a political sense.

The author said this was because there is a black and white morality in Tolkien, so he should have it. What the fucking fuck? If you're doing a deconstruction introduce themes that subvert or replace the themes integral to the work. That's how you do a deconstruction. Love it, meh it, hate it, Neon Genesis Evangelion is a good 'kid thrown into a mecha' deconstruction because it examines how making a child soldier with near limitless power is a bad goddamn idea.
>>
So much shitposting
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>>37191196
Nah, this is a work of Mairon, not Sauron, and as such it would be either sunk in old Angband or off to the west, anyway.
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>>37191319
About the writing, I will grant that even though I'm the anon who hates it for lore reasons it was written in Russian originally. Lots of the sentence structure and purple prose shit can easily be laid at bad translators since the work is, you know, illegal as blatant copyright infringement in all of us countries that care about copyright.
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>>37171170
>He should've not died
>A maia
>Dying
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>>37191370
I was talking structural shit, not just the writing. The story is 'lol inverted morality' and then the plot gets out of control.
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>>37191343

It's a Tolkien thread. They're practically made of shitposting.
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>>37191252

Uh, yeah. No thanks.
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>>37191375
That really depends on what you consider dying, which is a stretchy concept in a setting where the afterlife is a concrete thing and not such a stretchy concept in the real world where the afterlife may or may not exist.

Could a maia be dissolved completely so that it does not exist at all? Doubtful. Could it be demolished in strength to the point that it is little more than a presence, and a weak one at that? Yes, and that might as well be death for cosmic entities. Could they be thrust outside of Arda completely? Yes, and that is also death because now they're back in the halls of God himself.

my point is that death isn't always what it means here
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>>37191412
Thank the Russians and their past century of steadily destroying everything moral and established about their society and then replacing those things with equal parts vodka and nothing.
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>>37191366
I was thinking it might be one of the things he would take time to grab every time he flees, no matter what, to the extent that if it had sunk with angmar the second age would be about sauron inventing submarines or enslaving fish. the forces would never really learn about it, because its really an object of sentimental value, as so long as he has it sauron can justify his actions to himself, pour over its pages and recall the song, and his first vision for the world. the book, being in essence an enchanted brick of mithril, could survive anything, and sauron always goes back for it
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>>37191334
>If you're doing a deconstruction introduce themes that subvert or replace the themes integral to the work.

So, "Power is the only form of freedom"? "Kindness is a dagger poised behind your back"? "Evil is rad and omnipotent"?
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>>37191578
>OP
Why do I always leave that on when I switch threads?
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>>37190474
>Maybe through power he could build his own body, as he did when he died twice before, slowly, day by day. Maybe he could even regain his fair form
My understanding of Mairon is that he's something like a spirit of fire, or hearth, or forge, something along those lines, and building one in such grand symbolic tribute embodies him again by default. From there he only has to gather enough power to "refill the vessel" as it were.
>>
>>37171666
Not making enough gummy bears for everyone.
>>
Was Sauron a physical being during Lord of the Rings? I wasn't really clear.
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>>37191639
yes, just maimed and scary, and loath to leave his fortress
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>>37191639
Yes. But being an exceptionally powerful maia he was capable of manifesting as the Eye as well. But he was incarnate during the events of the books too.
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>>37173744
Run it in numenor.

Your players are The crew of a submarine attacking The umbar navy.
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>>37187195
That's actually really good stuff.
Not-Sauron even has Female-Smaug enslaved.
Lots of oppressive stuff to make you hate the Orc establishment, arms-control, slave-tithing, oppressive commodities taxes, restricted travel, the good gods can't grant divine magic, arcane magic is illegal for not-Orcs, makes it extremely difficult to be a merry band of adventurous freedom fighters.
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>>37191602
Because OP is a fag, duh.
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>>37191639

Yes, he's got a physical body. Gollum has seen it.

>>37191672

Yes/no. The Eye is his form in the "Unseen" while a body that seems to be vaguely humanoid is his in the Seen. They coexist, it's not a manifestation that he has to put power to maintain. I'm pretty sure all maiar that incarnate have something like that, in fact; we know powerful elves do. Maybe even weaker ones, Legolas seemed to realize that the Army of the Dead shades were "frail" and unable to deal with his own solidity in the Unseen, and in the grand scheme of things, he's a pretty weak elf.
>>
>>37191196
What do yo mean?
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>>37191946
I was trying to say the book, if found, should show signs that it was well preserved, dusted, cared for, etc., or had been at some long past point.

I however do not think it should be found in barad-dur or its ruins, which is why I originally suggested it be found in some vault in umbra, hidden by sauron when he departed for numenor
>>
Anyone got a map of Middle Earth? Like, the entire continent from the Third Age? That doesn't look like shit?
>>
>>37191028
It's a beautiful setting for a horror story. City that seems beautiful and prosperous but something dark and dangerous at its heart - or maybe not - but I can see a scene of someone looking at a map of the developing city and noticing that it's only got one corner uncompleted, turning it over and over in his hands as the shockingly well-hidden device starts screaming out at him from the page when he's got it laid out next to the description from The Red Book.
>>
>>37191111
Well, he's set to return, along with all of Morgoth's old cronies, in Dagor Dagorath. Basically the big final showdown between good and evil before Eru remakes the world.
>>
>>37192185
>Dagor Dagorath

And then Christopher had to piss all over LOTR ragnarok and make it noncanon too.
>>
>>37192248

To be fair, Dagor Dagorath is very old in the compositional timeline, and at a time when it was really a mythic history of England. In that version, Aelfwine goes to visit the faraway Tol Eressa, the land of the Elves. He lands in what's now Wessex.

As he moved further away from earth as we know it, the import of a notRagnarok kind of faded.
>>
>>37192134
Clashes with Sauron worshipers who don't know they're Sauron worshipers, maybe some Avari holdout who doesn't give a shit and wants to be the servant of an Ainur, forge-ghost getting stronger by the day and people disappearing...
>>
>>37192134
he doesn't even have to return. it can be a creeping horror. the bright city becomes stark and shadowy at night, and when a man joins the city guard his face always seems to harden, and he gains a gusto for punishment he never had before. the furnaces seem to thunder, the bellows whisper, and if you dig deep enough one will find deformed humanoid bones, and deeper still, foundations of black iron. the streets make a sigil that few are left to interpret, and there was no prompting to its construction in the great treatise. when the guard marches through the square, parading on mayday, there is a flinty look in their eyes even they can't account for, and high on its pillar the statue of the fair philosoph casts an eerie dark shadow, and his stylus takes on the look of a cudgel from some angles. there is a dark presence hanging over the city, glorying, pushing the healthy established order, and though the people of the land are orderly and glad, the city itself seems to beg for harsher order, and silently begs for totalitarianism.
they do not know their fair philosoph, or his deeds, but he is with them all, every day
>>
>>37192079
Maybe Sauron knew that his enemies would dwell deep into Barad-Dur to make sure nothing evil came for the things inside. Maybe he knew they would find it, sooner or later, and he was hoping for that.

How about Angmar? Remnants of Angband? But that would show that Sauron had fucking HUGE forseeing capabilities though.

I was thinking about Barad Dur because he saw that MAYBE, just maybe he was going to lose.
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>>37192450
>>37192450
and then something wandered down from the north, old and gaunt. the creature was once a fairy, they all say, until the devil caught him. he hid in the pits of hell, and only just climbed out. This wrecked elf, tortured half way to orcdom in the days before the sun, recalls the old lords, and their scent and presence.
the old lords are here
the old lord is here I say
what knoweth you of the old lords?
>>
>>37184064
this is a perfect demonstration of why mandos works so all as a punishment
>>
>>37192450
Erudamnit I love this. I'd like to think that the Mouth is there, somewhere. Exactly where you'd think he'd be, but out of sight. Just a man pulling the strings. Maybe with a wisp of Sauron's essence left intact in a glass jar he likes to shake around for shits and giggles.
>>
>>37192592
What, because Feanor is there?
>>
>>37192450
Oh, I love that. But in the end, the return of his physical form is preferred. Specially his fair form.
Returning as just a 'visitor' to the city they built thanks to his book. Further improving the knowledge the people there have, and slowly rising in rank. Maybe as a blacksmith even, though that's maybe too obvious. Slowly corrupting.

The city starts recieving strange visitors in the night. Cloaked 'men' who seem way too short, and with arms so long one could swear they're not human.

>>37192660
And the Mouth of Sauron could still be alive (although I picture this as just 600 years after the defeat of Sauron.. so he should be dead by now, unless he somehow tricked death? Black magics?) and I imagine him as really loyal to the Dark Lord
>>
>>37192672
because mandos can might decide to make you spend the next 10,000 years in a bunk bed with eol and feanor.
>>
>>37192742
>And the Mouth of Sauron could still be alive (although I picture this as just 600 years after the defeat of Sauron.. so he should be dead by now, unless he somehow tricked death? Black magics?) and I imagine him as really loyal to the Dark Lord

Depends on how you count his age. The book, as I recall, is a little ambiguous. I prefer the interpretation that he came into Mordor's services after the fall of Numenor, and uses black sorcery to extend his life. He is, afterall, Sauron's Lieutenant, ranked second only to the Dark Lord himself.

Again, depends on if "first rose again" in regards to Mordor meant post-Numenor, or post-Hobbit. I tend to emphasize "first", myself.
>>
>>37171452

>.moth

God dammit.
>>
>>37173744

4th Age is noblebright as FUCK, set it then.

>minor dragons still large enough to threaten cities
>Dwarves are still around
>Rhun and Haradrim are allies, but Sauron-worshipers remain
>fiends of Morgoth lurk the dark places of the world
>The Reunited Kingdom and Rohan are beacons of prosperity, culture and peace... But there is still more the brave, the cunning and the strong can do to make it better (Orc tribes, Sauron-worshipers, Corsairs and general banditry come to mind.)
>>
>>37192826
That's true, I always thought he used black magic to prolong his life. As did many of the black numenoreans in his service.

I always thought the Witch King was second in command though, but the Mouth must have been important.

>>37192922
Some elves should be around too, I mean, not everyone left. It is said Cirdan was the last to go, but surely there are others who NEVER returned to the Valar. The Avari for example, never wanted to go, and so, most of them must have remained.
>>
>>37192989
>I always thought the Witch King was second in command though

The Mouth was named the Lieutenant of Barad Dur, and according to the book he was very high in the Dark Lord's favour. It isn't directly stated, but it would fit thematically for the WK to be Sauron's "Gothmog", his War Leader, while his true second was a Sorcerer in his capital.

>The Avari for example, never wanted to go, and so, most of them must have remained.

Wasn't it said that they were lovers of starlight? Take Sindarin-type elves and give them some sort of Astronomical-style flavor if you're wanting to run a game including them. Darkly clad, adorned with silver and white stones, crowned with golden sun helms. Are they ever described, physically? I assumed they looked like Sindarin, but I also can't remember what they're supposed to look like.
>>
>>37192989
>Some elves should be around too, I mean, not everyone left. It is said Cirdan was the last to go, but surely there are others who NEVER returned to the Valar. The Avari for example, never wanted to go, and so, most of them must have remained.

That makes it even better.

All the overpowered Elves have left to the West, leaving their idyllic cities and settlements to be picked over (or even inhabited) by the Men who chance upon them. The Elves that remain are still powerful, but well within the scope of "they're tough, but you could probably play one in a mid/high level campaign." They're even Wood Elves, who favor the bow and modern Elf-y things.

It's really an extremely comfy setting to be honest; the world isn't going to explode if you don't go out and adventure, but you'll still make a name for yourself in history if you do.
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>>37192922
I've always wanted to run a 4th age game in which the blue wizards appear on the porch of bag end, long after the war of the ring, invite themselves in, and drag a young gamgee along dragon hunting in the withered heath with a party of far eastern avari followers of theirs, as a favor or joke to gandalf. of course their real reason would be to search for and retrieve some first age artifact, or halt some draconic plot before a fleet of uruloki end the fourth age early, this being their last mission in middle earth before returning home with whatever avari they could convince
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File: 1377024292039.jpg (17KB, 183x226px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
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>>37192922

Dwarves are still around, but are there still Orc-controlled Mountain Halls?

Fuck, imagine a campaign focused around retaking Moria or Gundabad... After going on quests to prove yourself to the suspicious Dwarven people, long secluded in their monumentally rich underground kingdoms (unless you're a member of Dale, in which case you have experience with Dwarves with confer a bonu- Aaaaah.)
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>>37192562
Does that mean an orc comes to the city? How does he hide? Why doesn't people notice he's an orc?
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>>37192742
on sauron's return, it should be all 'mights haves', if this is played for horror.

sauron himself ought not be well remembered, as he was already shrouded in myth by the war of the ring. sauron wasn't a person to the world even at that point, he was a legendary evil, never even glimpsed. it could have since been assumed that he and the WK were the same scary story, or that the name was just a title bourn by a mortal lord, that mordor vs numenor was like rome v carthage, nobody believes that barad-dur really was as huge as the stories say, that would be impossible, etc.

so he hangs as a zeitgeist over the city, ever-present, dispersed and spectral even as he gains power, an invisible hand and an invisible eye. don't think he's sauron anymore to these people; he's what he is, a dead god, as old as the universe, living among you and twisting the city to its will. there are no ghosts there but him, there are no spirits there but him, there is no secret there but him. even his most terrible apparitions might disappear in an instant. the flames in the black of the forge blaze red as blood and vanish, your face hot but the forge cold as death, the statue of the philosoph becoming increasingly militant and severe in pose without moving an inch, and all who look deeper being haunted by a creeping dread, a nameless terror, tugging at them, pulling them to search to dig until they turn up the bricks of the black tower and the bones of the orcs, then snapping back, only to reveal all really is well, the facade of apollonian justice is real, the philosoph was good, and died in time immemorial. so salute in the square, your faith in the treatise restored, the philosoph on his high plinth, stylus in hand, sun glinting from his fingers
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>>37193617
you're afraid of folk tales of goblins? its the age of reason, have no fear of a pitiful wretch. do let him in, and treat his ills, and hear the stories of this stranger's travels in the high university. if he proves learned what difference is his appearance?
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we need a new thread soon
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>>37194142
Here >>37194618
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>>37185632
>waiting for 50 years for a new book
>as an old man reading some fanfiction of some young author
>whole life wasted
>>
>>37186636
>. In the wrong hands somebody could really hurt themselves with it.
Lost.
>>
>>37185424
>if she ever goes the way of her uncle, snaps, and takes over the world

Dude, that isn't the best reason to be using your spying magic against Galadriel.
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