ITT: NBA Real talk, no stats, no titles, nothing, just say it.

>>76639305
It's

MJ>Kobr>>>>>>>dogshit>>>>lelbron

>>76639332
explain why

>>76639305
LeBron. If you want to give him shit for being LeGM that's fine and another argument but on the court he has willed some of the most overrated dogshit to the finals year after year. By some measures this was the worst team he got to the finals(even worse than the 07 team). Only a favorite in 2/8 of the finals he's been to.

>>76639420
yeah, and lets not forget he won against a 73-9 team, physically he is a freak, played in a great era with and against the best talent, LeBron in hisera faced Kobe, McGrady, Vince Carter, Durant...Jordan faced Bird and Magic but he never beat those guys until they got old, and Jordan aside from Bird and Magic, never had a real "Jordan-esque" player to finally have a competition, LeBron had to face Jordan 2.0 *Kobe* and so many talents that are still playing nowadays and he has to face them in the Finals, LeBron played the "lemme do the sacrifice for this team"

he is a boss, yes indeed, i understand hate tho, but you have to see the facts

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>>76639305

>>76639420
>By some measures this was the worst team he got to the finals(even worse than the 07 team)
Let's not be fucking ridiculous. It was a good team; not championship material without Lebron, but a good team.

Cast my vote for lelbron

>>76639628

Yo let's see his defensive numbers???? This old crusty fuck got lit up all series.

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MJ is the king.

Reminder that anyone who says LeBron has simply forgotten that he lost 5 out of 8 finals appearances and had to jump teams twice onto altering superteams in order to get a finals win.

>>76639629
They were either 1-7 or 0-8 this year when he sat. Granted love and Irving sat some of them too but not all. Loves good, irvings decent but in competition with John wall as the most overrated player in the league, Thompson's overpaid, Smith's a stone cold gunner when hot but when not is useless, and their bench play was the reason the finals weren't competitive. That was a 2007-tier team he took and people don't see it.

>>76639697
Lol he had to do that and defend Durant because their only other options were shitty shumpert or geriatric Jefferson. Meanwhile he did that on offense while the warriors rotated a half dozen fresh bodies on his ass.

LeBron is the greatest player of all time even though Jordan is more accomplished

neither MJ nor LeBron won titles with someone arguably better

Shaq is the understated force and wherever he went he turned teams into title contenders

anybody who thinks kobe is goat is the ultimate casual

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Kareem is the true GOAT. The best player at every level of the sport, and had the longest, best career.

kareem is probably the best to ever play all things considered, but lebron is easily the most talented player to play the sport. You can bitch about finals records and what not all you want, but at his best lebron is exceptional

>>76639590
>Isiah Thomas and the bad boy pistons exist hue

>>76640307
In a world when Jordan is the household name, it's very ironic how true that is.

Kobe has no place in this talk.

>>76640246
Pippen was arguably better
Without Jordan on the Bulls he made the ECF
Jordan without Pippen on the Bulls was first round exit godemperor

>>76640341

Pippen wasn't 7'2, 320 lbs. with 30 ppg and 10 rpg averages

Pippen was a good player and Shaq was the king of everything within 15 feet of the paint

>>76640341
Getting Phil Jackson and the late 80's Celtics and Bulls declining have a lot more to do with the breakthrough

>>76640339
thinking jordan is the goat is also a casual answer but imo that one makes a little more sense

>>76640341
Scottie Pippen wasn't a guaranteed starter until 1990, the year before they won the title. Pippen without Jordan DIDN'T made the ECF, he made it to the second round and lost to the Knicks in 7. `

>>76640380
That's the ironic part.

>>76640417
yes I got that lol, I was just saying that one is a little more reasonable to me

Kobe shouldn't even be in the conversation
It just shows the lack of bball knowledge anyone who unironically includes Kobe and I say this as a huge fan but I'm not a retard

MJ and it's not even close. LeBron mastered the game. Jordan changed it.

>>76640444
League changes all the time, Jordan did nothing but patiently wait till Pistons and Celtics worn out.

Unless you mean making NBA players viable for profitable marketing campaigns.

And I do think Jordan should be in this conversation, but he did as much as Jeremy Lin in terms of changing the game.

>>76639305
Kareem

>>76639305
kek

Kareem and Bird and Russell and Wilt and Duncan and Magic are all better than LeBron and Kobe. Kobe isn't even in the discussion you dumb faggot.

>>76640478
Sounds you never actually watched Mike play.

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>>76640478
>Pistons were worn out.
Jordan undeniably changed the game. He made it the world wide popular sport that it is today. He's the reason why people can make so much money from the sport

>>76640504
I did anon, but please do tell how he changed the game.

>>76640505
I literally addressed the whole making NBA players viable for marketing campaigns. But the game remains the same.

>>76640518
He basically took being an athlete and make it into an enterprise.

>>76639772
but he was Detroit Pistons bitch before they got old

>>76640572
To be fair, Nike took America by surprise with their campaigns back then. Bo knows.

>>76640505
also:
> Thomas playing like half a season due to injuries
> Laimbeer retiring
> Coach Chuck D leaving short after
Pistons worn out m8, it's well known that Jordan couldn't make during the 80s. Nothing wrong with that, those Pistons and Celtics teams were great.

>>76640622
Honestly, these arguments are retarded.

MJ and LeBron are entirely different players from different eras.

>>76640627
I never mentioned LeBron

>>76640622
Thomas wasn't injuries in the playoffs. The team was fine and the whole "worn out" thing is just revisionist history. They were the back to back champions

>>76640505
How is the pistons average age 27.2 when everyone on the roster is 27 or older?

>>76640632
Okay.. well, then you're just going back even further.

>>76640639
> players come back 100% from injuries
anon, Thomas wasn't healthy, hell he retired relatively young due to injuries he carried.

>>76639629
judging by their record without lebron, they wouldnt even make the playoffs without him.

>>76639772
>le only beat le great teams when they got aids man
>le my team got to the ECSF when I retired man
>le cucked by babby shaq in 95 man

>>76640644
I was just replying at the whole "changing the game" thing. I'm not even shitting on Jordan, but part of his mythos is due to an aggressive marketing campaign.

And I do believe he should be number one, but the other five spots all have an argument against him.

>>76640669
you forgot
>first round exit against celtics man
>didn't make it to playoffs man

>>76640412
refballed the fuck out in the 2nd you mean, the fact he made it that far just shows how good he was. look at how lebrons team perform when he doesnt play, for fucks sake in the finals he only had like 90 seconds of rest per game.

Durant is way better than Kobrick and Jordan and superior to LeBron.
Durant>>>LeBron>>>>>>>Jordan>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kobrick

>losing more NBA finals than you win
This really should be the standard a GOAT should be measured by, guys. The more spectacularly and frequently you lose the better you are. You can't make this shit up. Don't even try.

>>76640676
>but the other five spots all have an argument against him.

Agreed. It's not an objective case - no matter what numbers you throw at it.

Kareem is true GOAT though... The true patrician's choice.

>>76640694
I guess bill russel is the goat then right?

>inb4 REEEE NO IM ALLOWED TO CHANGE THE CRITERIA WHEN IT SUITS MY DADDY REEEE

I don't know if this is a measurement for a GOAT, but if I had to draft one player for my franchise Id draft Duncan over Jordan and definitely LeBron or Kobe.

>>76640711
> not picking Dennis Rodman and giving him a gun

>>76639305
I just think it's crazy Lebron can join a team and he can get them to the finals.

>>76640728
I guess i would do that if I was starting my franchise in like 86
>>76640735
Those early Cavs teams were straight dogshit. Wonder if he could take a team like the Magic as is to the finals.

I wish Lebron was traded to the Spurs early in his career, that would've been godlike

>>76640766
He's gonna lose one more final then sign veteran min to Spurs and they gonna run green at the 2 and Kawhi and LeBron both as 3s, with LMA as C. It's gonna be weird basketball, but they'll annihilate GSW but the Pelicans will be a bogey team.

>>76640697
>Kareem is true GOAT though
this desu

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MJ

Reminder to ignore Bronsexuals and not respond to them

>>76640704
>this autistic

>>76640892
>no arguments

>>76640950
>thinking you ever had one
Cute

3-5 that gold standard

Jordan and Kobe played against better competition and we're better winners. That's ultimately what it comes down to.

>>76641008
>Jordan and Kobe played against better competition
Is this bait? Even the 2011 Mavs are better than the Suns,Utah or Nets

>>76641008
You're right. They'll make nonsensical excuses till they're blue in the face. But you're right. No one likes a loser.

>>76641008
>he actually believes this
for sure barkley and the literal whos was better than the spurs my man, 100%.

>>76641013
You probably think last years warriors are the greatest team of all time too

>>76641013
>tf
>tt

top lelz there, enrique

>>76641025
And Lebron got BTFO by them. The 00's spurs were waaaay better than 2014 btw.

>>76641025
>literal whos
this is how I know you have no idea what you're talking about. kevin johnson was literally kyrie irving + basketball IQ and majerle was a non retarded klay thompson. you just destroyed whatever minimal cred you had there, brev.. i'm pretty embarrassed for you tbqh m12

>>76641047
This Warriors core would crush any 90's and 80's teams with ease.

>>76641060
>The 00's spurs were waaaay better than 2014 btw.
No they weren't. Tactically the 14's spurs were way better than any 00's team

>>76641088
Why are Yuros even allowed to post outside their divekick threads?

>>76641060
>2007 when he shouldnt have been there anyway
>2014 when wade and bosh were ass
inb4 b-but ray allen

>>76641102
>1980 playoffs 3 points made
1
Yeah any all time great team would just get outscored by the current Orlando Magic

>>76641102
thats sounds like a comeback any american would fall back on in any situation
try realistically explaining why the warriors could be beaten by a 90s team

Jordan was the man, the absolute man. There's a reason Space Jam exists.

Kobe is the closest thing to him, bar none. So Kobe is the 2nd GOAT.

Lebron is a triple double machine who can do it all. So was Magic Johnson. The difference was Magic Johnson won more.

Lebron loses in the finals a lot. Make whatever justification for this you like. I won't even argue against you. But if you lose more than you win, you're a loser. It's pretty straight up.

Peyton Manning is totally the GOAT

>>76641161
thats mudskin thinking right there. LeBron is better than Jordan at everything. So LeBron is the GOAT. And if you say Jordan is a better 3 pt shooter, look at career percentages. If you say Jordan is better on defense because of 1st team all defense, have Jordan guard a 4 or a 5 and tell me how he does.

>>76641161
>But if you lose more than you win, you're a loser.
True

>>76641125
Anyone assuming any sort of retarded cross era/generational bullshit is automatically not worth the time.

Surely, you realize the impossible triviality of this whole charade.

>>76641215
then why doesnt it show in his win record

>>76641161
>There's a reason Space Jam exists.
The man got his father killed, same reason why he went to play baseball.

Would've won more titles if he stayed, tho. But many of the things surrounding Jordan were influenced by sponsors and media.

>>76641230
so why are you on this thread? to drop your knowledge, tip your fedora and leave?

>>76641260
*memes.pdf

>>76641233
just so happens when you play against 26 hall of famers in the finals, you lose some

>>76641266
>you lose some
You mean most.

>>76641215
>LeBron is better than Jordan at everything

especially choking in the clutch, turnovers and crying from "cramping"

desu the only thing LeBron has over MJ is his frame. he's a physical freak but technically inferior in every way to MJ. Even Kobe is miles beyond LeBron in footwork, offensive IQ and shot arsenal/scoring versatility. lebron has 1 move and it's been his bread and butter since AAU. he bulls his way into the paint and lays it up. he's a machine.. but he's boring.

the warriors have brought more interest into the NBA than LeBron ever will. generating buzz is the true the sign of greatness and LeBron has none of that in him

>>76640246
Shaq's greatest talent was being huge, so no

>>76641287
World ain't fair, someone can be better than you just because he's bigger.

>>76641266
sounds like SOMEONE needs the mamba mentality

I think Basketball Historians would side with Kobe if he continues on with his current venture. He'll be a better ambassador for the game than both Lebron and Mike simply because he's lending his Basketball IQ for the future of the game by molding the young aspirants to understanding the game.

Of them 3, Kobe I think has it in him to coach. He's far different from Jordan when it comes to patience, He may have less talent than both Mike and Lebron, but I think he's got more willpower than both. This is a person who's genuine when he's focused on doing something, whatever he's doing.

So in terms of potential post-career, I see Kobe trumping both Mike and Lebron as an executive or coach.

>>76639305
I shat all over lebron during the past 3 years but don't even bring kobe in this, it's not even close. lebron is a lot better than Kobe. Kobe is a ridiculously overrated player.

>>76641161
>muh space jam
fucking idiot

>>76641473
lol give lebron a prime shaq and he would literally 5 peat

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Kobr. If there is anyone who benefitted the most from kobr's greatness, it is mj.
Lelbron is a joke. Anybody who is too afraid to take the possible winning shot in a game, is just a vagina. And those excuses everytime his team loses...

>>76641473
fuckin retarded sand nigger cant comprehend basketball, go back to your bug sport nigger

>>76641284
Wow you are a super casual fan and you should kill yourself. LeBron has one of the highest basketball IQs ever and you cant appreciate that because you dont watch basketball. Also LeBron is more clutch then Jordan, he shoots a higher percentage than Kobrick and is only a couple percentage points off from Michael. Also LeBron is a better passer, rebounder, and complete scorer than Jordan. He shoots a higher 2P% and 3P% than jordan. Also averages more career assists and rebounds and . Do some research faggot.

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>>76641818
>LeBron is more clutch then Jordan

>>76641818
>LeBron has one of the highest basketball IQs ever
Throwing a brick pass to a 3 point shooter is not "having one of the highest basketball IQ's" ever

>>76641936
being able to read the defense and know where the shooter is on the floor is a high basketball IQ.

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>>76641924

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>>76641960

>>76641948
James does none of that. He only isolates and does not have an off-ball game. His coaches wanted him to play in a system, but he got them replaced.

>>76642012
honestly I think you are retarded. There is an example in the finals of LeBron reading the warriors double teaming the ball handler and lebron finding the open man

>>76642099
All on ISO, and rarely on actual off-ball offense. Their over-reliance on ISO-ball destroyed them.

Blatt wanted to run an offense, he got axed, Spoelstra wanted to run an offense, Lebron hightails it to back to Cleveland.

Lebron will only play the offense he wants to protect his stats.

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>>76640310
>For me, it's Abdul-Jabaar

>>76641287
>>76641307
Shaq was a great passer and he had a great post up game. It's wrong to assume that he only dominated due to his size.

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>picking anyone other than Lebron

Get fucked.

Lebron is a once-in-a-lifetime freak of nature that can explode and run faster and harder than most on the court and can pass like some of the greatest PGs to ever play. Someone said it earlier in this thread, he's taken literal nobodies to the finals. Can't say there are too many stars who others want to play with because it actually improves their game...you know as opposed to just wanting to play with him to win.


Kobe's skillset I think was unmatched in the game. He is easily one of the most fundamentally sound players to have ever played, and has near perfected all areas of his game. Probably was just a little less than efficient as MJ ever was though...MJ could chuck up a bunch of shots to come back and win but Kobe fucking hogged a ball like no other, but most important became a cancer with the off court dramatics, throwing Shaq under the bus etc. In short, I wouldn't have hopes of building a team with him. He'd piss everyone off. On that note I did hear MJ was a bit of an asshole, never talked to Rodman outside of the game, punched Kerr and all, but there was no extra shit going on besides gambling...and definitely no rape case.

TL;DR
Lebron the GOAT

LeBron
>plays in a sissified pussy NBA with 'free flow' offense
>plays in a ridiculous situation where the entirety of the Eastern Conference is absolute trash in comparison to the West, granting him a free pass to the Finals every single year
>hopped teams to build a super team
>abused the shit out of PEDs during his time in Miami to a point where his body looked like a blow up doll, probably still regular HGH user
>bulldozes to the rim nearly unhindered due to his freakish physique and and no touch rules, yet flops like a drama queen any time he's stripped off the ball or blocked
>mediocre shooter despite having his moments of hitting complicated 3s
>tendency to disappear in clutch phases

Kobe
>was practically born into a dynasty with a ridiculously stacked team
>played along the most dominant physical center in NBA history, the greatest rebounder of all time and a plethora of near HOFers
>the definition of a volume shooter and ballhog, an irrational tyrant to the game
>despite of what people say, according to stats not all that great of a shooter, especially considering his own shot selection which was outright retarded
>played the first half of his career solely to set himself in scene
>PROs: he was a true fighter, work ethic and sheer will drove him to extremes over and over again. he doesn't know how to back down and will fight until he drops dead
>modeled his whole game as a carbon copy of MJ but failed in many ways

>>76639305
Magic

>>76642676

MJ
>built his own team over the course of years from trash to glory
>lead and mentored his co players, turning them into a unit of cohesive killers, especially Pip
>took over when need be and the game was on the line, always delivered
>absolute madman. obsessed with winning. punched his own team mates in the face during training
>played in the most physical era of the NBA, got literally slammed to the ground hard countless times, each time with a potential career ending injury
>played against Detroit who INTENTIONALLY tried to injure him
>played against a plethora of HOFers and defeated legends
>went undefeated in the Finals
>perfected the game
>game consists of artistry, intelligence and finesse that is unmatched to this day