Who /vegan/ here?

Nobody you faggot.

pescetarian cause this nigga loves fish.

>>22884856
how about fish flavored pussy?

>>22884809
Nope. I prefer moderation.

I'm fine with my body being a graveyard, because it is very tasty "murder".

Reminds me of that old joke.

"How do you know if somebody is vegan?"

"They'll tell you"

my body is such a graveyard bro so metal

i don't even eat much meat

but i hunt animals and do taxidermy for fun and wear shitloads of leather so

>>22886650
It reminds me of a great paradox, actually.

If a vegan does crossfit, which one do they talk about first?

>>22886848
My body is a graveyard!
My bones, a mausoleum!
My cock is become stone hard!
My balls, you gotta see 'em!

Eat Flesh!
Court Death!
Whooooooooooaaaaaaaaahhhhhh!

>>22886887
What if they're also athiest?

Damn that's a hard one

>>22888552
Omnivore (truly, insects are an excellent source of protein) here, with some questions.

>>22886650
Yes. Yes they will. Because you know, most social gatherings of any kind tend to involve some type of eating/snacking and you can forget about finding fucking anything to eat unless you make sure to mention that you are vegan because milk powder for example is in fucking everything.

Vegetarian, for religious reasons

>>22888656
What would you like to know?

Yes. I feel so much better since switching. There was always this sense of cognitive dissonance about meat in the past. I'd be handling a chicken and thinking in the back of my head 'this can't be right'. Now I just think about every individual animal I ate in the past and the moment it was killed and the look in its eyes, and I'm glad I've stopped.

>>22884809
did you move to soc because you kept on getting rekt when you tried veganposting on fit?

Vegan here.
Sucks to be surrounded by people eating carcass.

>>22889818
carcass eater here.
sucks to listen to people complain about limiting their diet for no reason other than attention.

>>22889650

you've clearly never killed a chicken

fucking retarded animals

>>22889650
>That looks in it's eyes.
>Most animals give you a wild eyed retard look.
>You find this relates you to.
Laughing.

>>22889871
Intelligence isn't really relevant. Are you ok with killing mentally ill humans who are reduced to the mental sophistication of chickens?

If they feel pain and fear and they have an interest (however primitive) to be doing something else, then it's wrong to use them as a means to a pretty frivolous human end.

>>22890007
You might be taking the 'look' thing a bit too seriously/literally. Do you think most animals feel fear and pain? Do you think they have interests (even very base/primitive ones)?

>>22889529
So I get the moral aspects. But if it is so wrong, why pretend to eat animal products. Like fake cheese and meat substitute? I dig tofu and hummus, why not just put olive oil and garlic on your toast instead of imitation butter?

>>22890013
What about sea urchin?
Lobsters don't feel pain..

>>22890041
Sure, there's got to be some kind of like you draw, and I'm not really sure where that should be. If you can prove an 'animal' has no interests and doesn't feel pain/fear/emotions, and is basically a non-sentient robot, then sure go for your life. I don't know about the particular examples you gave.

Regardless, it seems like you're dodging the question a bit. Surely you think those attributes apply to most farm animals, and wouldn't that imply it was wrong to use them in the way we do?

>>22890057
not really, most farm animals have been specifically bred for us to use them in the way we do

>>22890013
Sobthe question for you is where do you draw a line. How do you define "have an interest to be doing something else?"
Yeast is alive it has a primitive desire to replicate.
Chickens want to eat and fuck and reproduce. If they don't fuck they still lay eggs how is it wrong to eat those eggs.
What about honey?

>>22890035
Because some people enjoy the taste and texture of animal products while being morally opposed to the production of said products. Therefore, they find a morally acceptable way to produce the foods that they like.

>>22890041
Lobsters have a nervous system. It is unknown whether or not their nervous system allows them to feel pain. Regardless, they have a brain and therefore the capacity for perception. Being vegan is not only about not inflicting physical pain. It is about not confining or killing any living being.
>>22890076
The "line" is drawn between conscious and non-conscious life. If an organism has a brain then that organism is capable of perception (aka is conscious). If an organism does not have a brain then that organism is not capable of perception (aka is not conscious).

>>22890057
I mean. I'm an Anarchist. I am opposed to factory farming and the corporatized enslavement of animals (and often the people who raise them). But I am not opposed to using animals responsibly. I believe if you eat it you should be able to kill it. So if your a puss enjoy your chickpeas. But I think responsible husbandry is better for the planet and humans than the use of petroleum for all the things that animals can provide.

>>22890066
So were slaves. That isn't to compare animals and slavery, but your argument would clearly fail to justify slavery, because it's not about somebody 'breeding you' and thus owning you, it's about the fact that you're sentient and have emotions and interests and that it's wrong to make you suffer. The same principle applies here, so your argument doesn't really work w/r/t to what I was saying about pain/fear/interests
>>22890076
An interest to do something else is really just that, if an animal is naturally a herd animal, or wants to move around, or be with its young that's an 'interest to do something else'. For example, cows like to move in herds and bring their calves along with them. In the dairy industry calves are separated from their mothers and the males are either slaughtered straight out or used to make veal. That's clearly not in their interests.

Eating eggs themselves isn't really a problem. The problem is the way they're produced. In the production of laying-hens the male chicks are thrown into grinders because they're to expensive to raise as broiler chickens. So eating eggs is currently the same as eating meat. There are also a lot of welfare concerns on egg-farms, like lack of space, and beak-clipping. Eating eggs from your well-cared-for backyard chickens is fine with me at least so long as the chicken was rescued from a farm or at least didn't come from a laying-hen producer.

I don't really think honey is a big issue.

>>22890110
If you see the use of animals as enslavement, I'm not sure why you'd be ok with it in some circumstances and not others. Look into 'abolitionism'. The idea is that the property status of sentient life should be abolished, so human relations to animals would be in the form of a kind of 'guardianship' for things like pets, with much more responsibility w/r/t welfare.

what about animals which would otherwise have no life at all if not for human production

>>22890111
sorry but what? we're talking about selective breeding. no slave population has been selectively bred(if you actually believe this has been anywhere i dont see why I'm even acknowledging the point) for long enough to make any material change. A large portion of farm animals however would be useless if they were not engaged in their current uses.

I don't really care about the pain fear and emotions of animals beyond them not being harmed needlessly before they fulfil their purpose in life

>>22890161
Imagine we did breed slaves to adopt certain features that made them more able to work as slaves, but that they still had emotions and interests as before. Imagine you were one of those slaves. Would you accept that because of the way you were 'bred' you should drop your interests and accept life as a slave?

You haven't really said why an animal's purpose in life is as a vehicle for human interests. Again, a person bred to meet another person's interests doesn't inherently have that purpose in life.

If you don't care about pain/emotions/interests of animals are you fine with us eating dogs and cats?

>>22890156
see >>22890111

>>22890135
I believe agree with you on a ground level. I just think absolute veganism is an over reaction. The practices of modern factory farming are deplorable. But that doesn't mean that there is not a sustainable, ethical and environmentaly sound solution. Said solution would meen acreduction in meat consumption. And if you are not comfortable killing your own meat you shouldn't eat any. But if the entire economy is plant based, and any animal husbandry is in ethical, then food production will rely on petroleum.

>>22890183
that point is meaningless because we haven't. we have on the otherhand specifically bred animals for the purpose of food production
>an animal's purpose in life is as a vehicle for human interests
not an just an animal, an animal that would otherwise not be alive if it were not for it being for this purpose.
The whole slavery argument is a false equivalence.
I would have no problem with people eating cats and dogs.
And I'm concerned about where you draw the line:
When deer populations grow wildly out of hand resulting in the destruction of habitats for other animals or gorw so much that the herd as a whole has a decreased standard of life to the point where they start to starve would you just let that happen? they're still suffering
And what about the use of animals in manual labor? as far as we know that horse hasnt given its consent to pull that plough etc etc

>>22890236
they're supposed to be getting closer and closer to being able to produce synthetic meat on an industrial scale in labs; would you eat synthetic meat?

>>22890236
I'm not sure I understand why it would rely on petroleum? If you're talking about transporting things in trucks, then the same is true of animals. Animals also require additional space/resources to produce in addition to the space/resources required to produce the plant food they eat (except the cows and kangaroos which are fed on native pasture). That doesn't even take into account the methane produced by livestock. So I think you might have it backwards w/r/t the environment.

I don't really think there's a humane way to kill something against its will. In most places 'humanely' killing cats and dogs for food would rightly be seen as horrific, I don't see why it's different for other sentient life. You should try working some vegan meals into your diet. Most people are surprised how easy it is, and wonder why they didn't start sooner.

>>22890236
I cannot find fault with eating meat. We are, by nature, omnivores. If it is not wrong for bears or racoons it is not wrong for me. I believe all life deserves to be treated with respect. If you want to be a Jainist, go ahead. I don't think veganism is wrong. I just don't think it is right for everybody. The same goes for eating meat.

>>22890266
The plowing of fields... The corporate production of plant based food can be as amoral as meat production.
I am a bit of a primitivist. More hand work should go into what we make. Mass production is bad. Fields should be worked by hand or beast.

I do eat vegan meals. They are delicious.

>>22890249
>that point is meaningless because we haven't
>the whole slavery argument is a false equivalence

You have to be able to entertain hypotheticals to get to an abstract principle. You can't just refuse to talk about anything abstract and expect your argument to hold up.

If you seriously have no problem with eating cats and dogs then you're at least consistent w/r/t ignoring emotions/interests within the realm of non-human animals, but I doubt many people would agree with you.

I don't think you can police the entire animal kingdom, but if shifting a population of deer will do relatively little harm and make everyone better off then sure, it's probably fine. It's in their interests, it benefits them, and it's not for my own ends.

I also oppose the use of animals in manual labour.

>>22890293
If people can live and thrive on vegan diets then we're not obligate omnivores. Just because we *can* do something doesn't mean we *have* to do that thing. Our canine teeth would allow us to eat human meat, that doesn't mean we should.

>>22890318
You have to plow fields to produce food for animals. I suggest you do some research on the environmental impact of livestock v plants.

>>22890319
ok I'll entertain your retarded hypothetical if i was bred as a slave i wouldnt have the current ideas that i currently have and firstly I'd probably be glad to be alive if otherwise i wouldnt (since the only reason i was born in this current form as a selectively bred slave is to fulfil that purpose )
>>22890319
>If you seriously have no problem with eating cats and dogs then you're at least consistent w/r/t ignoring emotions/interests within the realm of non-human animals, but I doubt many people would agree with you.
well i can find over a billion that wouldn't have much of a problem with it, you make the mistake of labelling the rest of the world with the same values and sense of morality as the west.
plus the whole cat dog argument is stupid because its designed to pull on the heart strings when current domestic cats and dogs are primarily bred to be companions and luxury animals.
>I also oppose the use of animals in manual labour.
I'm glad that you are stuck discussing this on a laotian tofu cooking forum then because otherwise we'd be several centuries back from where we are now.
> it benefits them, and it's not for my own ends.
of course its for your own ends, why else would you bother to regulate them, if you didnt need to regulate them then they wouldnt be having any adverse effect on your life

I want to be a vegan, but my mom keeps making meat. When I told her I was a vegetarian at school she laughed in my face. It's starting to ruin my relationship with her. Just her constant overbearing and condescending attitude to anything I want to pursue.

>>22890437
make your own food you manchild.

>>22890324
>>22890319
Like I said I am aware of the arguments for veganism. I don't see a problem with killing. (Notice the lack of the word animal in the sentence. The day may come when struggles against the state and corporate system require more direct action and I will not have a problem running to the barricades) I see no problem with living in parallel with animals ant using them to benefit society as long as it benefits all, animal and human, in the society.

We have to change a lot about the status quo of our world and vegan menues will play their part. But if I think about an ideal world it is not one in which there is no animal farming.

>>22890421
On the hypothetical, that's a funny way of dealing with it. Let me change it. If you had the same knowledge you had now and you lived in a society in which there were slaves who were selectively bred to be slaves, would you think that justified their slavery? Would you seriously try to defend it in any other conversation, or are you just doing it for argument's sake?

You're right about the cat/dog thing. Just because people find it wrong in some places doesn't make it inherently wrong. I was trying to see if you were being inconsistent w/r/t non-human animals, and as I said you are consistent in that limited sense. (Though, I doubt you'd say that in any other conversation).

Regardless, the reason so many people find it wrong to kill particular animals is because they think their pain/emotions/interests outweigh frivolous human interests. Your only reason for rejecting that is the argument that some animals are bred by humans for a particular purpose. You've just implied you'd be fine with us breeding humans to serve a particular purpose for other humans. I think your last comment was trying to say that a sentient being selectively born into slavery wouldn't have other interests and would be glad to be alive. That's quite a statement, and I'd be interested to know if you have any examples of selectively bred sentient life which is glad to be alive and does not have any interests or feel fear or pain. Just because some chickens are born to grow larger or lay more eggs doesn't mean they're glad to be alive in a factory farm. You've created a false dichotomy between death and immense suffering. There's a third option, which is to inflict neither.

On the manual labour thing. I said that within a context where it's no longer necessary. Sure, if it's done in a cruelty free way and it's absolutely necessary then I can see the justification.

I don't know what your last point is trying to say

>>22890453
>>22890421
why do anti-animal arguments always wind up justifying human slavery and human killing?

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I've been vegan since the 90s

26/m/minnesota

>>22890543
I would say because death is part of life.

>>22890593
serial killer: I'm going to kill you
victim: what? why?
serial killer: because death is part of life
victim: oh ok :)

>>22890603
No, that is sencless. You are now starting to argue your point like an asshole debating you.
So no killing is justified?

>>22890615
Only self-defence I think. It's fine to say killing is necessary for something like that and then to explain why, but saying it's justified because 'death is a part of life' is not a very strong or meaningful argument

>>22890529
this is why i reject your false equivalence between human slavery and animal slavery. Animals(farm animals in particular they've been selectively bred to be stupid as shit and docile) are less cognisant/sentient/ than human being so you you cannot equate animal suffering to human suffering.
>That's quite a statement, and I'd be interested to know if you have any examples of selectively bred sentient life which is glad to be alive and does not have any interests or feel fear or pain.
I dont need to you asked me how "I" would feel, show me the studies that prove me wrong.
Its not a false dichotomy between death and immense suffering because to die you have to be alive first. non existence something far worse for me than an existence with extreme suffering because you would still have moments of relief/joy? amongst immense suffering non existence has nothing.

>On the manual labour thing. I said that within a context where it's no longer necessary. Sure, if it's done in a cruelty free way and it's absolutely necessary then I can see the justification.
one could argue that its never been "necessary"
>>22890529
on your enhanced hypothetical I'd question what kind of society exists where we still need slaves (Im not going to delve into all the wage slave shit and how "slavery" is economically inefficient)
This isnt a conversation about slavery and at no point have i endorsed human slavery

>>22890603
again you argue as if all animals hae the same degree of self awareness that humans do

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Oh boy, this thread.
Strap in kids.

1/?

Orthorexia Nervosa is a fixation on righteous eating, first diagnosed by Colorado physician Dr. Steven Bratman in 1997. The term is derived from the Greek word "ortho" meaning straight and correct, and refers to a psychological syndrome where one's food choices grow progressively narrower over time under the auspices of health. When vegetarians learn there's an even more restrictive diet plan available -- the way of the vegan -- dairy products like milk or cheese, subclasses of poultry products such as eggs, and refined bread ingredients involving yeast or white flour are summarily stricken from their diets as well. Nothing is allowed inside the body of a devout vegan which might be psychologically interpreted as a toxin. A Vegan's daily struggle to keep the "poisons" out and remain uncontaminated by the "wrong" food results in a total reliance upon what other vegans are doing to keep themselves alive, since they're the only ones who can ever be trusted. Like an oil painter who arbitrarily refuses to use yellow, a vegan diet is an attempt to gain control over at least one simple aspect of a person's otherwise ordinary life -- a "less is more" aesthetic taken to conceited extremes.

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>>22890765

2?

Extremes like vegan dog food, completely free of meat or animal derivatives, composed of only organic vegetarian ingredients like soy, peas, carrots, and sunflower oil. Is there nothing a dog loves more than the wild, hearty grains of a rolled oatcake? And woe to the meat-eater who tries dating a vegan -- even for a single evening. Dr. Bratman's treatise on orthorexia cautions that an excessive vegan lifestyle is socially restricting -- eventually coming to rule a person's life to the point where all thoughts and activities revolve around what is and what isn't "allowed". Where people with anorexia and bulimia focus on quantities, people with orthorexia focus obsessively on the psychological qualities, the purities, of their food.

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>>22890779

3/?

The decision to become a vegan has perilous side effects, not the least of which is a near-constant struggle to prepare meals which fool the body into thinking it's getting what it really wants. Veronica forces herself to go through a great deal of labor and preparation just to make her food taste more like meat, with weird-ass spices from around the world sprinkled atop "exotic" (and mandatory) sauces, curries, fungus, Boca burgers, textured vegetable paste, Tofurkey, and other processed blends of soy and gluten. Livejournaled any vegetarian recipes lately? There's a lot of disgusting shit out there -- and if you thought fat people were ugly, take a goggle-eyed gander at vitamin-deficient vegans. The universal hallmarks of a long-term vegan diet absent in proteins are pallid gray skin, stringy straw-like hair, knobbled witchy finger knuckles, cracked lips, diminished muscle mass, protruding bones, yellowed teeth, a smug sense of self-satisfaction, and enough lanugo peach fuzz to carpet the moon.

i am vegan! <3

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>>22890788

4/?

The decision to become a vegan has perilous side effects, not the least of which is a near-constant struggle to prepare meals which fool the body into thinking it's getting what it really wants. Vegans force themselves to go through a great deal of labor and preparation just to make her food taste more like meat, with weird-ass spices from around the world sprinkled atop "exotic" (and mandatory) sauces, curries, fungus, Boca burgers, textured vegetable paste, Tofurkey, and other processed blends of soy and gluten. Livejournaled any vegetarian recipes lately? There's a lot of disgusting shit out there -- and if you thought fat people were ugly, take a goggle-eyed gander at vitamin-deficient vegans. The universal hallmarks of a long-term vegan diet absent in proteins are pallid gray skin, stringy straw-like hair, knobbled witchy finger knuckles, cracked lips, diminished muscle mass, protruding bones, yellowed teeth, a smug sense of self-satisfaction, and enough lanugo peach fuzz to carpet the moon.

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>>22890798

In January of 2006, a Miami jury convicted Lamoy and Joseph Andressohn of felony child neglect for enforcing a strict diet of raw fruits, vegetables and wheatgrass. Their baby weighed less than seven pounds when she died of malnourishment, too weak to lift her head or sit without help. In the last three days of her life, she could only roll back her eyes. The autopsy reported that at the time of death, the child had "a grassy odor" and a bloated, distended abdomen.

Other children in the Andressohn family never saw a doctor, but received wheat grass enemas in lieu of traditional Western medicine, and testified they were taught that cooked foods were "evil." Shortly after the children were removed from their home by authorities, they discovered a new love for tacos. The mother and father, meanwhile, were ordered to abandon their extreme diet and keep their children on meals approved by a nutritionist.

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>>22890807

And now, we wait for vegans to prove Nixon wrong.

Go on, give it a try.

>>22890738
>Animals(farm animals in particular they've been selectively bred to be stupid as shit and docile) are less cognisant/sentient/ than human being so you you cannot equate animal suffering to human suffering.

I don't think farm animals have been bred to be more stupid. They've been bred to enhance production of meat/eggs/wool, etc., but I'm not sure how that really affects anything.

You've drawn a sharp line between farm animal sentience and human sentience. On the whole, that's true. People are much smarter than animals most of the time. But a baby with a severe mental disability would not be smarter or more sentient than a pig or a cow. Would that make the baby's suffering the same as the animals' suffering? Would that make it ok to kill and eat the baby? I assume you'd say no, and that must mean there's more to moral worth than something's *relative* sentience to normal adult humans. As I said, that thing is the ability to feel pain/fear/have interests (which as I've said exist to some small/primitive degree in some way for nearly every sentient thing).

>non existence something far worse for me than an existence with extreme suffering because you would still have moments of relief/joy?

Would you rather be reincarnated as a human in an alien-run slaughterhouse which used standard practice slaughterhouse methods on humans, or not be reincarnated at all?

>on your enhanced hypothetical I'd question what kind of society exists where we still need slaves

I'd say the exact same thing about the use of animals. We don't need meat or animal products to survive, so why should we inflict all that suffering?

>>22890765
You're trolling right? You must have ignored every ethical argument which has been the focus of this thread. It's not a mystical health thing, it's a practical step to minimise animal suffering.

>>22890798
>>22890807
You use one example of somebody having a completely ridiculous vegan diet to discredit the health effects of all vegan diets? You could have just as ridiculous an omnivorous diet, made up of steak and jellybeans.

>It is the position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.

Dieticians Association of Australia
>Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. They differ to other vegetarian diets in that no animal products are usually consumed or used. Despite these restrictions, with good planning it is still possible to obtain all the nutrients required for good health on a vegan diet.

Find me some reputable dieticians who don't think you can be healthy on a vegan diet.

>>22890838
show me the studies showing how much suffering all these cows go through.
On the whole british farms are far more humane than ones on the continent and in the states. and guess where i get all my meat from.
standard practice slaughterhouse methods are remarkably fast in comparison to how a cow would die in the "wild". i'd rather that than having my throat ripped out by a wolf or some shit after an exhausting pursuit.
>>22890838
with the sever mental disability I would have terminated it in the womb or advocate euthanasia, though you're going to have to clarify what you class as a severe mental disability.
>We don't need meat or animal products to survive, so why should we inflict all that suffering?
do you really want to get me started about how the whole cooked meat thing supercharged our development and led to the increase in human brain size yadda yadda yadda.

we're not going to get through to each other because you have a love affair with animals and i fundamentally do not care about them and see no equivalence between them and us

prove to me how much they understand the "suffering" they're going through

>>22890838
I'd rather stay dead forever
Mah fucking whole gotta return to the universe and hopefully my atoms will end up in a fucking neutron star

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>>22890926
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/5/1627S.long
>However, eliminating all animal products from the diet increases the risk of certain nutritional deficiencies. Micronutrients of special concern for the vegan include vitamins B-12 and D, calcium, and long-chain n–3 (omega-3) fatty acids. Unless vegans regularly consume foods that are fortified with these nutrients, appropriate supplements should be consumed. In some cases, iron and zinc status of vegans may also be of concern because of the limited bioavailability of these minerals.

http://www.andjrnl.org/article/S0002-8223%2800%2900134-6/abstract
>Dietary Intake of Vitamin D in Premenopausal, Healthy Vegans was Insufficient to Maintain Concentrations of Serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D and Intact Parathyroid Hormone Within Normal Ranges During the Winter in Finland

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3137939/
>Infants of vitamin B12-deficient breastfeeding mothers, or infants receiving low amounts of animal-source foods, may be vulnerable to vitamin B12 deficiency between 6 and 12 months of age. Neurological symptoms appear to affect the central nervous system [6] and, in severe cases, cause brain atrophy. In addition to neurological symptoms, infants may experience other physical symptoms, including abnormal pigmentation, hypotonia, enlarged liver and spleen, sparse hair, food refusal, anorexia, failure to thrive, and diarrhea...Most of the initial data regarding vitamin B12 deficiency in infancy are from case studies of infants exclusively breastfed by mothers on vegan, vegetarian, or lacto-ovo vegetarian diets.


Okay, your turn. This time, no false equivalencies (such as comparison to tricking the taste buds and body into thinking it's getting what it needs to a diet of steak and jelly beans). Also, there are far more than just one example of having a 'completely ridiculous vegan diet' ruining someone's health. But you can ignore whatever Google pulls up if it interferes with your feels.

>>22890951
>show me the studies showing how much suffering all these cows go through.

I'm on mobile, I can't access JSTOR here. Go on JSTOR and search 'cows pain' or 'cows suffering', you'll find lots of peer-reviewed academic articles.

>I'd rather that than having my throat ripped out in the "wild"

Another false dichotomy. You can't just do whatever you want to an animal because it might be worse in the wild. You could care for it instead, and I doubt a cow would suffer more in a sanctuary or in the wild than in a slaughterhouse.

>severe mental disability

I assume you'd terminate it in the womb because you wouldn't want it to suffer in life, and that if it had already been born you wouldn't be ok with somebody killing and eating it. How is that different to a farm animal with similar/greater sentience? Why is the animal's suffering different if the level of sentience is the same?

>supercharged our development and led to the increase in human brain size

You're using the past tense there. That's important. If it *was* necessary/beneficial it isn't anymore. You can get all the same nutrients from plants (except B12 which requires a supplement, but supplements are a good idea regardless of your diet, especially things like Vitamin D).

>>22890795
ily <3

>>22891026
Your first article said you'd probably need supplements. Every healthy vegan takes a B12 supplement. How does that mean you can't be heathy on a vegan diet?

The second article again mentions dietary intake of Vitamin D. Take a supplement if you're a pre-menopausal woman in the winter in Finland...

The third article said B12 deficiency was bad. Yes, again, that's why vegans take a B12 supplement.

None of your articles show you can't be healthy on a vegan diet, they only show that you need to take a B12 supplement, and that in some very particular circumstances maybe a Vitamin D supplement. Heaps of omnivores take supplements, too. What's the big deal?

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>>22891079

>Every healthy vegan takes a B12 suppliment
Source

>Take a supplement
That's on you assuming everyone within your dietary choice and lifestyle has access to such a thing. Check your privilege.

>Heaps of omnivores something something I used them as a steak and jellybean comparison now I use them as a positive talking point

And to think you focused on just one item in all of Nixon's previous posts and ignored everything else.

At least you tried. Bonus points for namedropping JSTOR but not providing any specifics, cited sources, or any such objectivity.

>>22891039
all i found on JSTOR is articles on foot and mouth disease and the hazards of shitty milk
the by and large cows on farms today wouldnt survive in the wild and stop smoking that pot, fucking sanctuaries just because you're alive doesnt give you a fundamental right to a good one
the parents of that child are far more sentient than any cows, plus its pretty hardwired into most humans not to eat their own unless as a last resort.

heres some good shit you should read
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/133/11/3886S.full
http://www.ketotic.org/2015/03/meat-is-best-for-growing-brains.html
i need to sleep, I don't feel like talking to 12 year olds any more
As an aside, the main reason i eat meats is that they're energy and nutrient dense and take far less time for me to prepare than any vegan/ vegetarian meals i make

also vegetarian for religious reasons. it is in direct moral conflict to condone the taking of another being's life.

>>22891111
This Nixon thing is kind of embarrassing, but I'll humour you.

>B12

I don't know what everybody's circumstances are, but in most developed countries you can get a year's worth of B12 tablets for $10-20. That's the cost of one or two night's worth of steak. If you can afford meat you can definitely afford a supplement. When I talk about it not being necessary I'm talking about developed countries where you can buy a B12 supplement relatively cheaply. If you're in one of those countries and the supposed dietary risk is your main reason for avoiding veganism, then you really don't have much of an excuse.

>Source

If you want a source that says you should take B12 to be a healthy vegan look at the first and last links you gave me.

Your last point doesn't really make sense. I think you may have misunderstood the 'meat and jellybean' analogy. Your example of a family feeding their child a completely irresponsible diet which happened to be vegan is just as comparable to a completely irresponsible diet which happens to be omnivorous. Neither diet would invalidate the validity of being a vegan or an omnivore

>>22891234
My b12 costs $4/year. And that's at optimal dosage for keeping homocysteine levels low. I could take much less and not worry about neurological deficieny.

But why are we talking about people who are not you?

>>22884809
you claim killing and eating meat is bad
but does your body agree with you?
to keep you alive your body fights and kills micro-organisms on a daily basis
your digestive system has even enslaved some specific species to help it digest food better.
plants die when you eat them too. so you care more about animals than plants?
and what about the people attacked by vegans and vegetarians during protests?
you care more for humans or for animals? why not protest war before meat?

So instead of killing everything
you prefer to focus wholly on killing plants
drinking every last drop of their delicious fluids
castrating their flowers, and inseminating the ones you like
to produce rape breeds of the plants with the most delicious young
cutting off the limbs of those you dislike so you can graft limbs you do like
onto their bodies forcing them to grow delicious young that will be served on your tables
while keeping the parents in concentration camps, standing room only.

aren't farmers like me just horrible people?
enslaving the plants in concentration camps we so affectionately call gardens.
while letting the animals roam about and eat the wild plants in the field.
Raising Cows to make them fat with milk, that we steal from their udders
letting cats roam about killing innocent mice, rats, and birds
Enslaving wolves, forcibly domesticating them into dogs
raising dogs to help us hunt birds, deer and moose,
enslaving horses to carry us long distances,
and all we paid them was food and love.

plants communicate with other plants by way of chemical signals
different stresses cause the plant to release different bouquets of aromatic chemicals
the smell of peppermint tea is the leaves screaming as you boil them alive
that smell of the Flower shop?
Potted plants screaming they don't have room to grow,
cut flowers screaming that they are being mutilated

>>22890013
Yes retards like you shouldn't be allowed to live.

>>22891175
Yeah, there aren't too many I can find on the question 'do cows feel pain'. But they all assume that they do. Most of the articles were about qualitatively measuring pain in response to particular things, and the effect of anesthetics, etc. But that should really emphasise that cows do feel pain. Idk if they'd feel more pain in the wild, but I'm not sure why that would justify us inflicting a different kind of pain on them. That's like rescuing a dog from somebody who has been hitting it 10 times a day, and then only hitting it 5 times a day.

>>22890660
If you are going to base you justification for such an extreme action as veganism on ethics, equating it with slavery (N.b. I don't wholey disagree with the analogy)
Take a look at what you are wearing., made in Asia? And I am almost certain the electronic device or its components you use to access this site was manufactured in asia.
Have you ever perpetuated a racial, gender, sexual identity, or social stereotype. Do you work for the government or a corporation in which one person makes an unfair wage? All of those things are unethical. Even if you are a damned Buddhist, those fucks are misogynist as all get out.
I'm not saying vegans are bad people. You have made a conscious decision to try and make the world a better place. Let me make mine. And where we can find common ground let's support each other.

In that vein. Got any delicious vegan recipes to share. Without any fake stuff please.

>>22891686
butternut squash, aubergine, courgette, cashew nuts, chilli pepper, a little soy milk and garlic; put that in a pan with some olive oil, (do the cashews separately )it should taste god tier

>>22894232
Thank you, this sounds good.

>>22890261
No I don't think I would eat synthetic meat. But I don't know much about it so I cannot say for sure.

I can't find the post about water usage, but in reply:
Almonds use more water per pound than any meat source, at 1,929gal/lb (beef is 1,847gal/lb) cashews, pistachios, and hazelnuts use more water than all other (common) meats (1,704; 1,362; 1,260 gal/lb) walnuts (1,112gal/lb) is only beaten by sheep (1,248gal/lb); to round things out: pork (718gal/lb) lentils (704gal/lb) chicken (518gal/lb) just out consumes chickpeas (501gal/lb)
This does not take into consideration that to get complete protein you have to combine these with another food. And to make the substitute milk products requires more water and creates literally tons of solid waste.
So vegans are no angels either.

>>22884809
Two thirds of vegan hot dogs contain human DNA. One tenth of them contain significant amounts of meat.

Enjoy eating some employee's stealth bacon and factory-farmed ejaculate.

>>22894978
This is not a problem with veganism, but with corporate food production.

>>22895002
>implying it's a problem

>>22894955
Does the water figure for livestock include the water used for the plant food they eat? Also, the environmental impact includes methane and land clearing among other things. For meat that includes the additional land clearing for their plant food. Can you link the source for the stats you gave? Also, choosing two nuts that are more water intensive than meat doesn't really say much about which diet is more water intensive overall.

Regardless, the environmental side of things is very peripheral to the ethical side of things.

>>22895905
I got the stats from the Huffington Post. I'm pretty sure that these are total water footprint numbers.
I'm not trying to say veganism is worse.
I'm just saying it isn't as fantastic solution. It has its place. It has its merits.

>>22894955
So if you eat only 4 particular nuts you'll use up around the same amount of water as meat eaters? That says nothing about the overall impact of each diet. Also, do the meat statistics include the water usage required to produce their plant food? Can you link the source so I can see the methodology?

>>22890013
>Plants literally feel pain and would rather be alive

>>22890838
>we don't need animal products
>instead lets spend money on supplements that we wouldn't need if we hadn't gone vegan in the first place

>>22896842
You need B12 one way or another. If you get it from animal products it will be more expensive and inflict pain, fear, and the deprivation of freedom. If you get it from a vitamin tablet it will be cheap and ethical. It seems pretty simple to me.

>>22896750
Plants aren't sentient. Even if they were, farm animals eat plants, so farming and eating animals would still inflict much more suffering.

>this entire thread
why are loud vegans and vegan haters so fucking annoying.

i am vegan, i have been for most of my sentient life. it's a choice and not one i'd force onto others. i take vitamins, i don't throw away meat just because i don't eat it. people can eat meat around me, i don't care. i have no morals, fuck off. why is it such a huge deal to everyone? eat what you want, be happy.

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>>22897277
Hope you goys are enjoying these lovely pictures ;^D

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>>22897285

well.. we are the top of the food chain so..

Jesus christ you cunts are fucking pathetic, holy fuck.

This cunt over here >>22897099

>I'm not a vegan
>I have no morals

You're actually fucking retarded, go neck yourself cunt, how fucking low has half chan fallen, Jesus Christ.

This is a chan, and you're a vegan? Go the fuck back to reddit, you don't belong here at all.

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>>22897298
>>22897289
>>22897277
Aw shit, why

Why man


WHHHHYYYYY

>>22897326
calm down, you misquoted me. i'm saying i AM vegan and it doesn't fucking matter.

vegan n gluten free (celiacs) here

>>22897763
what a sad fucking life you must live. holy shit. I know you can't help the coeliac, sorry bout it, but opting to be vegan on top? dat willpower.

>>22896940
>plants aren't sentient

sentient able to perceive or feel things.

grass can sense when it's being destroyed and it gives off distress signals to predators that eat the bugs that usually consume grass. That's one of the reasons fresh cut grass has a distinct odor. I'd say that's an ability to sense something. Our knowledge and understanding of plants is still growing, so we may find out in the future that they feel more than we think.

>farming would inflict more suffering to animals and plants

You're implying I'm arguing to reduce animal suffering I'm not. I'm arguing that sentience is an arbitrary cut off that makes eating animals bad and attempts for vegans to have a moral high ground.I think it's rather foolish and if you want people to eat more vegetables, just tell them the health benefits.

Your body isn't a graveyard but your iPhone is a product of basically slaves
Your clothes are the same
Your trash is contributing to the derailment of the environment
Your car is the same
You're trash if you hold a holier than thou attitude because you save a fucking cow (which, you really don't. Ain't nothin bringing that cheeseburger back)

*not directed at people who can not eat meat due to health problems

Facts are you can feed more people with vegetable than with meat...

I started eating way less meat after watching that Cowspiracy documentary.

Even though that documentary may be biased. The graphic showing how much land is used to produce meat really got to me.

>>22884809
Vegan, because somehow you have evolved differently to 7 billion normal homo sapiens

>>22886650
How do you know if somebody is unnecessarily causing innocent creatures to be abused and killed, supporting industries that pollute more than all the others, and harming themselves with cholesterol, saturated fats, trans fats, and more because they don't care enough to eat the vegan versions of foods? They'll tell you.

Not a vegan but vegan foods are yummy!

>>22898934
Mechanically responding to inertia doesn't indicate a conscious subject perceiving something.

>Rocks can sense when they've been kicked down a hill and by rolling down the hill they send distress signals to animals below to move out of the way.

Assuming sentience in an animal which (like us) has a brain and a CNS, and which responds *dynamically*/creatively to stimuli and expresses observable emotions is no more arbitrary than assuming sentience in another human with those features. The shadow of a possibility of solipsism doesn't mean this assumption is just as arbitrary as the assumption that a pencil is sentient. One is overwhelmingly justified, the other isn't.

On your second point, even if you were right and plants were sentient, a vegan's 'arbitrary line' would dramatically reduce suffering. Wouldn't the correct choice be the absolute minimisation of suffering? Wouldn't abstaining from animal agriculture get you closer?

Also, if all assumptions of non-sentience were arbitrary why refrain from harming humans? Wouldn't someone who refused to kill humans just be "attempting to have a moral high ground"?

wow

>>22904325
Even if plants were sentient Veganism is the ONLY solution to this problem, because fewer beings—sentient and insentient—would die if humans ate plants directly instead of feeding all those crops to animals and then eating those animals with plants. Even the Council for Science, Technology and Agriculture, a group of animal agriculture people, stated in the early '90s that all the crops in America could feed every human on this planet twice-over! However, there had to be one stipulation; everyone would have to be vegan!

I'm vegan 18 f UK :))(()

Vegan here

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Vegan here! From the cold north!

>>22884809
But your body is a graveyard we are the Graves of stars past. We are starstuff

>>22906894
>>22908559
>>22908842
Hey m8s

Wasn't there an article recently talking about how plants can actually hear themselves being eaten

>>22910235
Please re-read 4chan's Global Rules.
>Global Rule 3: You will not post any of the following outside of /b/: ... off-topic replies ...
Thanks!

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>>22910224

Hi

>>22910243
How..is that off topic?