Abiogenesis Thread

I'm still baffled why would nature even do "life". Why would molecules want to replicate themselves? How does that help them reach lower energy levels? (presumably that's the only thing a molecule wants to do)

Molecules can end up in extremely stable states but still maintain some complexity

If a set of molecules happen to replicate, then the replications will probably also replicate. That repetition is the closest thing to things "wanting to replicate"

>>9147991 was for >>9147985 (obviously)

>>9147956
MY guess is soup. Life probably occurred more than once on Earth, but was quickly and easily wiped out before something finally stuck long enough in a calm enough era to develop better ability to survive the chaotic eras.

RNA world hypothesis is where it's at

>>9147991
So the "will to replicate" so to speak is a completely random feature of a molecule that arranged in a primordial soup? That would suggest life is an extremely rare occurrence even if you have a planet with perfect conditions.

>>9148205
It's hard to tell with a data set of 1, but yes.
Intuition says that it's pretty amazing for life to done go making itself outta the soupy goops

>>9148205
That is an assumption!

>>9147956
It's way more likely that some advanced race discovered how to make complex proteins and just shat the stuff out everywhere in the galaxy. Think about what humans would do if we were far enough along to synthesize proteins.

>>9148213
This raises the question of who made them though. And so on and so forth

>>9147991
>>9147985
I think you can even say that life does derve the purpose of getting molecules in lower energy states. A molecule of life doesnt necessary lower it's own energy level by replicating but the matter that makes up the copy has been "helped" into it's shape by the molecule, so life helps other matter achieve lower energy.

>>9148213
We would probably make some really cool synbio-nanobots

>>9148215
if we are just x(n), something had to be x(0)

>>9148213
What a terribly ineffective process that would be. I don't believe in the seeders theory because it's retarded way of doing things.

Amino acids are fucking everywhere. The concept of a bunch of them randomly sticking together in such a way as to make more of the same thing is not that far fetched.

File: Gen1-1.jpg (25KB, 480x360px) Image search: [Google]

25KB, 480x360px

>>9147956
>ITT mental gymnastics
We already know the answer. You just keep denying it and have to use "pure coincidence and magic soup" to explain it.

File: Hovind.jpg (71KB, 350x500px) Image search: [Google]

71KB, 350x500px

>>9148241
you've convinced me!

>>9148233
Yes, because amino acids are the only components that are essential for life to occur!

>>9148213
>It's way more likely
Occam begs to differ

>>9148221
And anyway, it doesn't solve anything. Where would they come from?

>>9147956
https://youtu.be/U6QYDdgP9eg

>>9148292
OP here
that exact video caused me to stop believing in God for a really long time
(I'm now a panentheist thanks for asking)
Who's idea was it to build a religion around creationism anyway?

>>9148265
Permeable lipid vesicles + nucleotide polymers + thermocycling from environment + millions of years = functioning protocell

>>9148308
thermocycle = turn heat up then back down?

>>9147985

Actually, life is entirely consistent reaching lower energy levels because it acts as an energy dump for all the energy reaching Earth from the Sun.

>>9147985
the reason why it doesn't make sense is because you're still thinking in terms of inanimate particles "wanting" to do something.

>>9148308
i think it highly unlikely that all of the features in modern cells coalesced at once. It's more likely that an entire body of water, possibly even the whole world's oceans, were filled with RNA-like molecules that sorta-replicated until some single molecule could reproduce itself via catalyzing it's own formation from the soup, and from here evolution begins to add features like vesicles and encoding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_world

>>9148313
Yes. This could be found in currents next to a hydrothermal vent.

>>9148326
>i think it highly unlikely that all of the features in modern cells coalesced at once.
I didn't say they did. The fundamental problem with RNA world is that RNA is so fragile. Life needs a boundary separating it from the outside. Lipid vesicles solve that problem, while explaining how the first polymers could compete in a meaningful way, since vesicles "eat" each other and split up after growing too large.

>>9148297
>Who's idea was it to build a religion around creationism anyway?
Literally everyone civilizations idea until recently, despite most ancient civilizations having no contact with each other. Really makes you think doesn't it? That everyone seems to naturally know there is a God. You know why? Because it's so incredibly obvious that there has to be one.
Atheism is more stupid than believing in the flying spaghetti monster.

>>9148340
... thanks for the input

what are your thoughts on Abiogenesis tho?

>>9148213
>that some advanced race discovered how to make complex proteins and just shat the stuff out everywhere in the galaxy.
where does the advanced race come from?

>>9148340
Exactly. Anyone who doesn't believe in vampires, Atlantis, and dragons is a fucking idiot.

>>9148342
Abiogenesis is like throwing a million dogs on Mars expecting one of them to "adapt" and reproduce.

>>9148350
>every civilization in history believes in vampires
>every civilization in history believes in Atlantis
>every civilization in history believes in dragons
No

>>9148353
>every civilization in history believes in God
No.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_atheism

>>9148353
>Abiogenesis is like throwing a million dogs on Mars expecting one of them to "adapt" and reproduce.
This sentence is so stupid it had to be purposefully designed to be stupid.

>>9147985
The fuck. Nothing "wants" anything, nothing happens for reasons or reasoning. Just what we project onto it. It just randomly happened and here we are.

>>9148353
More civilisations believed in dragons than the abramaric conception of god. Also it means nothing, why should we care? They are like children to us.

>>9147985
Life generates entrophy like crazy! Turning complex molecules and carbohydrates, lipids and protiens into deadend salts and rustlike compounds# Of course molecules would want to form mitochondria and shit. Best thing there is outside of fusion for burning down to lower energy levels.

>>9148361
Not as stupid as believing a lightning hit magic soup and instantly created a complex information system out of nowhere.

>>9148381
Unlike God, dragons are not self-evident.
The abrahamic God is a bit more specific. I was talking about the idea of God in general.

>>9148361
>purposefully designed
Maybe even intelligently desiged

>>9148396
>Not as stupid as believing a lightning hit magic soup and instantly created a complex information system out of nowhere.
LOL so you admit it's stupid? What a moron.

>>9148396
>god is self-evident
Be honest, was there ever a time in your life you didn't have some authority tell you about God? Weren't you just a brain washed from day one?

>>9148403
I was brainwashed from day one to believe in the lie of EVILution, telling us we are all just animals and morality is subjective. That's why society morally degenerates the more atheistic it becomes.
Everyone naturally believes in God, that's why they need brainwashing to deny this obvious Truth.
But eventually I couldn't deny the Truth anymore and found to God.

>>9148422
It's officially a troll.

File: 1502387404406.png (231KB, 1280x809px) Image search: [Google]

231KB, 1280x809px

>>9148430
>I don't have any arguments left, so I'll just dismiss him as a troll
>Checkmate

>>9148422
Tell me exactly on what basis did you suddenly decide that God must exist?

>>9148453
You need the infinite for the finite to exist. Without an unmoved mover nothing could exist. We know the universe didn't always exist and it couldn't have come from nothing. We also know that whatever created the universe can't have a cause itself because then you could just keep asking "But who created God?". So there HAS to be an eternal consciousness above all of creation.
Q.E.D.

>>9148463
>So there HAS to be an eternal consciousness above all of creation.
Why does it have to be conscious? How can you know that the eternal doesn't just exist and that the universe came from it?
A conciousness seems too complicated of a thing to just be. Everyonne experiences conciousness as the most basic form of action they're taking, so it makes sense to try to apply that to the main existential block, but I see no reason why it should be preferable over other theories.
Scientifically, we know conciousness as a process that our (physically existing) brain produces and we also know that it isn't just one single soul like object in the brain that does it, it's a combination of things.
That then begs the question, why should the most basic and eternal thing in existence be something, that we only know as a complicated configuration?

>>9148521
Because without it being conscious it wouldn't be able to act. It follows from it being eternal. A dead thing wouldn't produce a universe after an eternity because it wouldn't be able to change and decide to create it.
If it was simple/dead thing the creation event would be up to random chance. And that's impossible considering the creator is eternal.

Maybe you'll understand what I mean with a (simplified) analogy: Consider all real numbers, from negative infinity to infinity. Is it possible to pick a random number from it?
It's the same concept.

>>9148430
it took you this long to realize?

/sci/'s one true weakness is trolls.

I think abiogenisis is the coolest thing. Has anyone simulated it? Hopefully with visuals. Same goes for evolution.

>>9148539
Nothing has to act if everything is acting infinitely. If the creator were to act, when? where? why? In all of infinity, god acts now?
There is no reason why there should be an extra step for existence.

Life is nothing special.Sentient life is whats special.

File: 1503446466958.jpg (13KB, 354x352px) Image search: [Google]

13KB, 354x352px

We are just bio robots carrying around dna - dna is actually in control and it evolved to change us so that we could be more efficient in carrying it around and replicating it. Everything that we think and believe doesnt matter because for some reason we are just puppets to the recipe that made us.
Maybe the recipe just went on one day and once you go on you want to stay on.
I believe that our universe is finite and has strict laws, but that it is located in some kind of infinite existence that is pretty much locked away from us. A closed system in an infinite system.
And why should there be a god ? Maybe there is a god, maybe everything we ever thought and dreamed about is real somewhere in the unreachable eternal infinite, but those things are not in charge of our universe.
We dreamed up a god, a creator, he did create a universe we dreamed up but not our universe.
In the end i believe that, true nothing, true nothingness is just that - nothing. So it doesnt exist. The only thing that exists is EVERYTHING. And everything is not nothing so it is infinite in its existence and existed forever and will never go away.
You need not a god to have morality. Morality in the end is living life without troubles and staying happy.
Our recipe, the DNA made us in such manner that we LOVE to repeat things that makes us happy (we are rewarded with happiness) and since EVIL is high maintenance and causes higher entropy, its more LOGICAL to stay moral and happy the natural way.
So yes you can strangle babies all you want without repercussions when you die but still you are being a dick and thats a FACT that can be mathematically proven without the GOD in the equation.
And we are generally too curios about the afterlife, and i think that we should be patient and wait to actually die and then you will get the ultimate answer. But no, we are always in a hurry so we have a million fantasies to explain this existence.
This is also a fantasy in a sense but its an upgrade i guess

>>9148546
Everybody who isnt a fedora is a troll?

>>9148292
>>9148297
>music written by a Christian composer to glorify God
I laughed, super cringey btw.

Just evolution on a molecular level, really. Hydrocarbon chains and other elements formed simple proteins because hydrocarbons love to join together in weird ways. Eventually proteins whose mechanical function created duplicate proteins. And bam.
Now you got natural selection.

File: Goblin.png (3MB, 1998x1450px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 1998x1450px

>>9148320

>>9148648
>>Everything that we think and believe doesnt matter because for some reason we are just puppet

Finally somebody here that gets it.

>Morality in the end is living life without troubles and staying happy.

Well sorta, anyways.

>>9148798

no, but everyone who doubts evolution or thinks abiogenesis is impossible is a troll

you can be religious without being mentally retarded

>>9150009
>the opinion of brainlets matter

This is not a democracy

>>9148340
>relifag knowing so little about religions they think every religion has or had implied creationism
not surprising

>>9148353
Either you have not even a basic grasp on the concept of abiogenesis or you're the proud maker of the absolute worst analogy in human history. Possibly both, it's too stupid to be trolling.

>>9150009
American education for you

>>9147985
yeah this is what norm macdonald asked richard dawkins in a tweet "why does life insist upon itself"

>>9150039
Now that I think about it, my analogy was an understatement.
The early earth evolutionists always talk about was a way more hostile environment than Mars. And the cell that would need to emerge wouldn't have any or very little protection against the environment. So it's actually MORE likely for a dog to survive on Mars than for abiogenesis to occur.

>>9147985
>Why would molecules want to replicate themselves?
Random chance leads to molecules that replicate themselves by chance. It's just a side effect of what it's doing, don't think about it as the main activity.

Now, those things which are itself, what do they do? They replicate themselves, because they're copies of a thing that replicates itself.

>>9148216
please explain this to me more about lower energy states.

>>9147956
Life as we know it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23825119

Abstract
This paper presents a heuristic proof (and simulations of a primordial soup) suggesting that life-or biological self-organization-is an inevitable and emergent property of any (ergodic) random dynamical system that possesses a Markov blanket. This conclusion is based on the following arguments: if the coupling among an ensemble of dynamical systems is mediated by short-range forces, then the states of remote systems must be conditionally independent. These independencies induce a Markov blanket that separates internal and external states in a statistical sense. The existence of a Markov blanket means that internal states will appear to minimize a free energy functional of the states of their Markov blanket. Crucially, this is the same quantity that is optimized in Bayesian inference. Therefore, the internal states (and their blanket) will appear to engage in active Bayesian inference. In other words, they will appear to model-and act on-their world to preserve their functional and structural integrity, leading to homoeostasis and a simple form of autopoiesis.

>>9148607
This guy gets it.

The rudimentary mechanics of life are just compartmentalized aqueous chemistry. Any environment where it can exist in some form, given enough time, it will. After that, so long as the entire planet isn't sterilized, it's there to stay.

The real question is the origin of organelles, and especially the engulfment of some sort of protomitochondrion and protochloroplast. The fact that every multicellular organism (and plenty of unicellular organisms) share the same such template suggests that these events only happened once and radiated from there.

To go further, intelligence as we know it requires a complex nervous system, which in turn requires hundreds of incredibly specialized cell types and a massive energy supply.

Once it was cool enough, it took the earth very little time to grow stromatolites. It took a few billion to get to the Cambrian explosion, and half a billion more to get to us. If we ever get to colonization of the galaxy, we'll likely find a lot of planets with similar microbes, but very few if any civilizations.

>>9147956
I have deduced that "Life" is energy from a universe which is not comprised of atoms, trying to emerge relentlessly into this universe of atoms.

Why else would RNA spontaneously emerge and then go right on to growing and developing into single celled organisms?

Why? That is the real question

>>9150225
That's a lot of speculation. There's nothing about life that requires metaphysics to explain.

>>9150063

>The early earth evolutionists always talk about was a way more hostile environment than Mars.

Mars has no liquid water so that is BS

>>9150100
Urh.... so in a (chemically) complex environment life-like processes are a statistical inevitability?

>>9150009
source I refuse to believe Americans are this stupid

>>9151857
that pic was bait
I just wanted to revive my thread :')