Is Meditation Pseudoscience?

>>8697852
It's a waste of time.

>>8697852
it's not science of trying to be science you dweeb

it literally means "dude cut the noise and breathe slowly for a bit"

>>8697861

you're a waste of space

Because we don't actually understand it, most people are probably doing it wrong.

>>8697861
That's what I figured.

>>8697863

So that counts as a 'no, it's not beneficial' got it.

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>>8697852
I actually go to a Zen Meditation course and am a general smart guy so i think i have some basis for my observations about this.
I think that meditation is basically a real and useful tool discovered by religious idiots. Infact zen Buddhist are almost taught that their own religion is bullshit and to be sceptical, which is kinda neat.
Science has been trying hardcore to wring every last bit of usefulness out of meditation and discarding the history. This is ok. But theres always a chance that they'll miss something really important because they cant see the forest for the trees.

Breathing regularly is usefull as irregular breathing confuses the frontal lobe.
Theres also some other kind of strange ability Buddhists have to resist pain, which sort of appears as a culmination of them organising their mind psychologically. I remember that my teacher said:
"when your in pain its comprised of the core physiological response of pain, and also your worries about your pain. When you remove the worries which float above the pain, you'll find that your pain is actually smaller than you thought."

You should remember that the brain may be full of thoughts and logic, but it is constructed of regions and of tissues, and that it has to be treated with an owners manual that reflects this. I think this is what buddhism does properly, in that it can calm the tissues by giving you the right keys in the form of meditation practice.

Lastly, buddhism is very much focussed liberating people from the cycle of suffering. We all know what suffering is, we all probably accept that its a cycle and will continue to happen again until we die. Buddhists try to step back and observe this without taking part in the emotions. This is a good think in the world i think.

Continued
>>8697918
Heres a neurologist explaining that thing i said about breathing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xc3XdOiGGI

>>8697861
This.
/thread

>>8697852
There is thorough and extensive evidence that it has multiple emotional and physical benefits.

>>8697918

The irregular breathing thing is true, kind of. I'm not sure about the frontal lobe but it's proven to help your heart beat. So assuming your practising an even-breathing meditation. (Smooth breathes that are holding to a pattern). Then at the very least you regulate your hearth beat so that it's not erratic.

OP look into mindfulness.

Plenty of studies to show the benefits without the hokey eastern philosophy stuff.

>>8697927
Ah ok, thanks for the link.

>>8697852
It's not a science and doesn't resemble, or claim to be science at all.
>is bathing a pseudoscience
>is mayonnaise a pseudoscience

>>8697852
Depends what you mean by meditating.

Also "is it good for you?" and "is it pseudoscience?" are 2 different questions. You really seem to be asking if it's good for you or not.

>>8697852
>Is Meditation Pseudoscience?

Much of it.

Meditation is as effective as relaxation.

Pseudoscientific are the claims that it is more effective than relaxation.

Source: 50 Great Myths of Popular Psychology

>>8697941

Tons of rigorous research out there, and easy to find..

https://nccih.nih.gov/health/meditation/overview.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_on_meditation

https://archive.ahrq.gov/downloads/pub/evidence/pdf/meditation/medit.pdf

>As a whole, firm
conclusions on the effects of meditation practices in healthcare cannot be drawn based on the
available evidence. However, the results analyzed from methodologically stronger research
include findings sufficiently favorable to emphasize the value of further research in this field.

So, yes research currently evidence is not concrete, but it is substantial enough to also not ignore. And there is no evidence that it is entirely unsubstantiated like astrology.

>>8697958
Pretending to not understand the question doesn't add anything to this conversation.

Bathing is proven to be beneficial and worth your time.

Mayonnaise is a bit more complicated but if we're just setting the criteria of 'is mayonnaise worth eating?' then it tasting good to someone, might be enough for it to be worth using from time to time.

See the point? I know you already did before you replied, so why say something substantial instead of setting up strawmen and knocking them down.

>>8697972
>>8697971
Decent answers, thanks.

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https://www.coursera.org/learn/science-of-meditation

>>8697852
>Is Meditation Pseudoscience?
How much have you learned from staring at the inside of your eyelids?
How about being ABnormally SLOW (not normal, the yoga way)?
I prefer to be normal rather than being a commoner caught in scams and shams (scammed by a spastic sham-man bouncing around as a bubble head).

>be atheist
>my lack of religion forbids me from meditation
>take few deep breaths
>oh no! i accidentally meditated a little

There are MANY types of meditation. Very few if any are religious in nature.

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>>8697918
>Infact zen Buddhist are almost taught that their own religion is bullshit and to be sceptical, which is kinda neat.

Boy, did you take a lousy course. Was the teacher also offering to "enlighten" the girls with his penis?

>>8698311
Which form of meditation didn't come from a religion? I don't know of a single one. Your answer is completely wrong.

>>8697852
its literally just resting

>>8698335
Meditation is literally impossible to do if you're tired.

>>8697861
fpbp

Meditation is a form of mental exercise. Practicing meditation can help with focus and concentration.

Certainly not religious by nature although many people use meditation
to contemplate their religion.

>>8698332
mindfulness meditation.

Your turn, name one that is religious.

ACEM meditation is non religious.

Suggest you look up the definition of meditation. Literally means concentration/ thinking. Activities that are not necessarily encouraged in the west but are not so foreign as to be called eastern. Certainly not religious but could be.

>>8697852
On the topic of meditation. Did you know that the average Buddhist monk spends LESS time sitting still than the average video gamer?

It's like the opposite of stress. Nobody argues that mental stress doesn't exist or that it doesn't have real physical effects on you. Meditation is just the same thing, but in a positive way. It's all related to the placebo effect, it's not fucking magic, but it can have some real benefits.

>>8697918
There is no liberty from suffering, only liberty within suffering.

>>8697852
>Reduces pain
Emotional pain, yes. Physical pain? Only your perception of it so not really
>Enhances immune system
Doubtful
>reduces feelings of depressing, anxiety
Definitely, there are studies on this I once read years back. I won't go through the trouble of citing them but the anxiety should speak for itself. It's common knowledge that relaxation would imply a reduction in anxiety.

>Anger and confusion
Not inherently, if you focus on changing you pont of view then obviously. But that isn't strictly meditation so no

>Increases blood flow and slows heart rate
Slows heart rate, yes as it is calming. Increases blood flow? How would this happen with a slower heart rate?

>Provides a sense of calm
Yes
>Peace
If peace is being less bothered by thoughts, yes.
>Balance
What does this mean

>Helps reverse heart disease
Doubtful. More likely that people who do meditation have a tendency to make other healthier life choices.
>Helps control thoughts
Obviously. This is the skill you would be practicing

>Increases energy
No. Motivation != Energy. And increasing motivation is questionable.

>Reduces stress
Yes.


Conclusion. Meditation is active practice of relaxation and contemplation. Benefits are identical.

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>>8698484
>Physical pain? Only your perception of it so not really
what else is pain if not perceived?

I don't even understand this kind of question.
To my ear, it's like asking if relaxing is pseudoscience. It's like asking if sleeping 4 hours a day is as good as 8.

Calming down and breathing regularly will surely be beneficial, no? I see no reason to doubt that.

>>8698502
/sci/ just wants to be contrarian whenever possible. if they can dismiss it as a pseudo-science practice done by nu-male cucks which has no real benefits, why wouldn't they?

>>8697852
it shows *some improvement* of cognition and well being, about as much as a placebo
you know what else improves your cognition and well-being? fucking working out
go do sport instead of wasting your time staring at a wall

>>8698502
>Calming down and breathing regularly will surely be beneficial, no?
the claim is that it does more than just that

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>>8697852
No

>>8697852
Can meditation help with anxiety problems? I have intermittent severe social anxiety and really need a non-drug way of attempting to deal with it, i'm tired of band-aid fixes and drugs that cause dependence

>>8698332
Sam Harris' Guide to Spirituality

>>8698555
Well, when you meditate you basically observe your body. You let the thoughts pass your attention and instead focus on the physiological sensation of breathing.

If you're an anxious person, you likely have that 'pit' in your stomach. When you meditate, you're basically alone with that pit. Sometimes, I feel very anxious when I smoke weed. When I just let all the thoughts pass my attention and instead focus on feeling where the uncomfortable parts in my body are, it just melts away. This is just my experience, though.

>>8698484
>Slows heart rate, yes as it is calming. Increases blood flow? How would this happen with a slower heart rate?

lower blood pressure causes the blood vessels to dilate and puts lets stress on heart

>>8698386
Mindfulness is just a secular appropriation of a form of buddhist meditation.

>>8697852
Go lift instead, same physiological benefits on top of not being a scrawny nigger, and for less time total.

>>8698386

Mindfulness meditation came from Buddhism. It's officially called Vipassana. "Mindfulness meditation' is just the english way of saying it. Like 'loving kindness meditation' is the english way of saying Metta. I didn't even need to google to answer that one. You really should have looked it up before replying.

>>8697852
>healthcare industry
>schools and gyms

you wut?

>>8698419

I never really thought about it but it doesn't surprise me, since meditation practices promote walking, sitting, reclining, etc. for meditation to keep a body balance.

>>8698484
Thanks for taking the time to give such a thorough answer and including your thoughts.

>>8698515
This is OP here, and I don't think that way at all.

>>8698525

I think this is probably valid. I was leaning towards it being about the same as a placebo, I'm still not 100% sure but thanks for adding your opinion.

Although I don't really understand your angry tone. Most people on Sci seem to be seething with rage for no apparent reason.

>>8698555
I've suffered from severe anxiety and chronic insomnia and I have to say at that point, meditation did not do a single thing.

I believe temporary medication is sometimes needed but not long enough to get addicted, but solving the actual problem is the best obviously, if at all possible.

>>8698561
Sam Harris took his meditative practice from Buddhism. You can simply google it.

Mediation as a way to do something supernatural is probably bunk. But the concept of clearing your mind and relaxing is legitimate and is a good thing to do. You don't have to be sitting like Buddha under a waterfall, but closing your eyes and counting down from ten or sitting in your room vegging out to a playlist for a few hours, working out and then taking a nap afterwards, etc. can work wonders and help you avoid stressing yourself out with too much work.

>>8698693
>listening to music
You don't know shit about meditation.

>>8698687
Sam Harris believes in determinism to the point he denies free will. Why the fuck would he practice something that is based on the concept of the mind having control of the matter of the body and not the other way around.

>>8698726
Ok. Enlighten me on what I should know.

>>8698730
meditation isn't about distracting yourself, quite the opposite
it's about focus

>>8698729
>the concept of the mind having control of the matter of the body

I dont think Budhism is about that. not same guy btw.

>>8698733
Why would music distract and not focus you? Especially low tempo instrumentals?

thinking about how you think is extremely useful. i try to live in the moment and be aware of my thoughts. it makes me happier. i can stay calm in bad situations.

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>>8697852
hasnt been studied thoroughly enough, so far looks promising in some cases

>>8698729
Don't know but he does. Or did. Maybe he's stopped. From what I've gathered on Google he took it from Buddhism and quasi-divorced it from it's religious trappings.

Of course you can look it up and form your own opinion of the position he's taken. But any way you slice it, he took his meditation from a religion.

>>8698754
Use google to have a discussion? Your randomly angry post is completely over the top and basically has nothing to say about the topic. Why did you bother posting at all.

>>8698934
Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it.

>yfw every time you meditate you get psychosis
Thanks psychologyfags!

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>>8697852
Just take a nap, you'll feel much better when it's over.

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>>8697852
>>8697861
Every form of recreation is a waste of time. The benefits of recreation come in the form of stress reduction, which promotes emotional and cognitive stability.

Meditation is essentially the same as diving face-down onto your bed and laying there in refreshing silence after a long, loud, hot, stressful day. There doesn't need to be a science to it. Some people do it, some people don't. Just do what feels right to you without giving yourself undue stress.

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>>8697852

Psychiatry is pseudoscience

Point to mental illness on a brain scan
Oh wait

>>8697852
No. Backed by a lot of science. https://scholar.google.com.br/scholar?hl=en&q=meditation&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C5&as_sdtp=

>>8698544
yes

>>8697877

>So that counts as a 'no, it's not beneficial' got it.

No you don't get it.

literally Google Scholar "meditation" and read the results. It's not fucking hard!

You are just looking for angry people to confirm your narrative. So bring a dick

>>8697918
>When you remove the worries which float above the pain, you'll find that your pain is actually smaller than you thought
said by someone who never had an abscessed tooth root.

>>8698767
>why make meditation boring when you can make it FUN™?
found the american.

>>8700844
Whose angry? I think it's you, and for absolutely no reason. Your very first post was angry without a cause. Lots of people in here have made points for both sides without getting angry or calling names.

You called names right out of the gate.

>>8701097
"who's"
brainlet

>>8701098
Pointing out a minor grammar error when you're not using capitals, periods, or even writing a sentence.

The last resort of someone who lost the argument.

>>8701097

when did I call you a name?

If you are referring to my swearing, that's just because I'm Australian lol.

I responded to your obvious condescending tone by pointing out it isn't hard to search for yourself.

But you don't actually want to learn about it, you just want people you consider smart because they post on /sci/, to back your views.

Maybe you should stop projecting?

I've never heard of anyone angrily defending mediation, but this thread shows that plenty of people angrily attack it :)

>>8701201
it's time for the rise of Militant Buddhism!

>>8698319
Found the Rohingya.

>>8697852
Tried the mindfulness type of meditation out of curiosity, and it does make you more calmer than usual. I've also noticed that it changed my perception of time, making it seem like time was moving slower than usual. Senses felt slightly heightened, making reality feel more "real".

These effects become stronger the longer I practice, but they seem to plateau at some point. After I got bored of practicing it, the effects went away after a few months.

>>8697852
It's the same as praying

>>8698468
Source

>something needs to be scientifical to be effective
jesus, /sci/ really is autistic

>>8701371
You were so close bro

>>8701420
It literally does. If an effect can't be demonstrated, the effect may as well not exist.

>>8701436
so the effect eggs have on an average human's health changed once the consensus of the scientific community on the matter moved from "literally going to kill you" to "they're okay"?
phenomena that can't be demonstrated/replicated in a controlled environment still are phenomena

>>8701443
>nutrition """"""""science""""""""
But we don't KNOW what a phenomena is if we can't replicate it.

>>8701446
>no true scotsman
cute
people have been practicing meditation for thousands of years because it has a sensible effect, the fact there are few papers reassuring you of that changes nothing

>>8701452
This is off topic a little and I'm not the poster you're replying to but I just wanted to point out that I'm fairly sure that's not the no true Scotsman fallacy.