To all the physics and math fags here, how does it feel when

>education is about what is most profitable to learn

>>8568555
True; however, money is still a strong indicator of how importance a field is.

>>8568555
Butthurt mathfags justify their uselessness by resorting to "education is not about making money" strawman

>>8568559
>money is still a strong indicator of how importance a field is.
elaborate

>>8568564
More importance = More demand in workforce = More money spent to hire people

>>8568564
If a field is useless/trivial (like math or physics), then the market does not want it. Therefore people in such fields will not get much money.

It's funny how the most useful and well-paying maths all have programming in their names: linear programming, convex programming, etc.

Also statistics which is basically simplified machine learning

>>8568552
> how does it feel when CompSci was supposed to be the inferior field but the jobs it offers usually have higher salary

That just proves the inferiority of CompSci. If it were so great, people would't have to be bribed to do it, and it would attract students with greater aspirations than being paid to sit in a cubicle for 9 hours a day.

>tfw you realize solving strong AI will basically make all /sci/fags jobless

>>8568583
By your logic isnt plumber/waitress the most prestige jobs?

>>8568588
Why do you say that?

>>8568575
>Also statistics which is basically simplified machine learning
As an MLfag, this is just plain wrong.

>>8568605
what's the difference?

>>8568586
Won't matter if we're dead by then. Better to just research immortality crudely and stand a chance than wait for a fucking miracle.

>>8568552
> codes written by math/physics fags are the worst, most unreadable shit
We're not technicians, that's your job to play with the magic box

Salty compsci fag.

>>8568658
>Can't write clear code
>Can't write clear math proofs
>Can't get a hold of your physics data

>>8568575
The use of programming in those subjects is not the same as computer programming, you fucking retard.

>>8568658
That doesn't even make sense lol. Programming is literally making the black box interface.

Math is ok, but physics is for plebeians.
It doesn't even have a millennium prize problem like P vs NP lol.
Plebeians gonna be plebs.

>>8568842
Except it does you dipshit. The mass gap problem and stokes smothness problem are both physics problems.

>>8568850
>implying that modern physics isn't just math

>>8568850
>Listing mathematical physics problem
Can't even stand on your own ground huh.

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>>8568552

Yeah, the job description has the word computer in it and my degree has the word computer on it so like I'm qualified to get the job yo. But the job doesn't have the word math/physics in it and their degree doesn't say computer on it so like totally those guys can't get the job! I am the samrts one here. Theys be all butthurt nigger!

>>8568890
Look at this buttmad math fag lol.

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>>8568552

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>>8568922

Good luck getting a job with a monkey degree.

>>8568953
A job that makes more cash than yours.
Thank you.

>>8568940
Smug anime face is the absolute truth.

>Physics degree
"Do you want fries with that?"

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/sci/ people are deluded — they think a bootcamp that teaches webdev == a 4 year undergraduate education in Computer Science (B.S. not B.A.)

A good university (at least mine) goes deeply into the math and theory of computer science, you have to do all of calculus + real + functional [banach, hilbert, lp spaces, complex variables] and complex analysis, discrete math, linear algebra, graph theory, combinatorics, vector calculus, statistics, differential equations/pde, an option to do computational topology (esp if you want to do graphics, it involves tychonoff's, stone's, directed complete partial orders [DCPOs], resursive domain equations, domain theory), linear optimization, and a few others.

That's just the math portion of a good Computer Science undergrad. Probably more math than most of the math majors on /sci/ have done in their lives (since they're all freshmen). Obviously it won't have as much math as a math degree (no abstract algebra), but it's only because that stuff is useless in computer science (like if a math major studied psychology or something to "understand what the great philosophers were thinking")

For the computer science portion, there's a lot more stuff:
coding - OS, introductory programming, functional programming + paradigms, parallelism, data management, systems programming, networks, compiler construction, a ton more
theory/science - AI, ML, computer architecture, theory of computing [models], database systems internals [optional], distributed systems, advanced internet services [hyperlink analysis, scalable web services, you create a web crawler], computer vision [3d shape reconstruction, object recognition, image retrieval, segmentation, motion estimation], graphics/animation (ray-tracing, affine transformations, etc), security, NLP, and then a few capstones

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>>8568552

>>8569014
With a degree in theoretical mathematics you are actually less employable than an artist. An art degree isn't a tag that says I don't like interacting with people.

>>8569013

How deeply do you go into the theory behind those maths subjects? Do they just state the main results, do they prove them to you, do they develop the theory properly?

Because if you do, I don't fucking understand where do you get the time to do all that shit and more. Also, I'm really jelly.

>>8569047
They develop theory, or else it'd just be memorization

The time isn't hard to find — the topology course is optional (and same with a few of the other courses that you'd expect to find only in a math degree).

The school is focused on producing developed computer scientists who can actually work on expanding and researching computer science as a field (and also creating really good software engineers/data scientists/ml/ai/computer vision researchers or whatever)

That said, our social sciences programs suck (psychology is overcrowded at our school, they stopped funding psych and are just throwing all the money at CS now, we've just gotten another $100 million in funding in the last year or so).

Another drawback is that you have to "apply" to the computer science major [after getting into the university itself], and 85% of the applicants to the major get rejected, so they have to settle on a noncompetitive major (it used to be mathematics, but the school recently made it somewhat competitive — not as much as CS, but around a 40% rejection rate — because it was getting crowded with "muh code n vidya will get me a waifu" type neckbeards who were rejected from the computer science major, so now those who get rejected from computer science and math typically major in physics or geography)

So it's a pretty shitty admission system, but once you're in, you're good. Another thing that is really weird is that the computer science version of the math courses is much better than the mathematics version of the courses [since CS is so well funded at our school, the professors are really good teachers for math too, and the math major at our school has a lot of the dumber students because they were rejected from CS typically]. So for example, the analysis course in CS would use Papa Rudin, while in the math major they'd use some generic analysis textbook slightly dumbed down. Backwards system I guess, it had me confused about how 4chan treated cs majors.

>>8569063

What uni is that?

>>8569066
Large school in the Pacific Northwest usually ranked in the top 10 for CS (undergrad and grad)

>>8568559
According to this acting/singing i.e. entertainment and football i.e. athletics are the most important fields of humanity.

>>8569075
Why you don't simply say it? This is a anonymous board, wtf are you afraid to get doxed?

>>8568552
Capitalism only cares for knowledge and theory insofar as these can be exploited for a profit. There exist clear and wide-spread applications in the modern world for programming knowledge and its associated skills, which can be exploited in a variety of ways that all tie back to making a profit.

You are implicitly asking a question with an incredibly obvious answer. CompSci is superior in most respects in the world dominated by capitalism because it is more profitable, but physics and maths fags have a deeper knowledge and more robust set of tools for understanding the greater universe beyond the human capitalist world; in that sense, these are superior fields. Not that any of you autists should be giving a shit about pointless and childish academic/intellectual dickwaving or which fields are really "superior."

>>8569147
So basically, get rid of capitalism and emulate the academics-dominated technocracy of the late Soviet Union

>>8569118

>not knowing what indicator means

gtfo underage

>>8569147
>muh capitalism
>unironically using "insofar"

stopped reading there, /leftypol/ please go.

>>8569175
I literally adore capitalism, but you can't deny anything I said in that post. Capitalism does not value all forms of knowledge equally because not all forms of knowledge have equal applications in generating human-derived profits. This makes certain forms of knowledge "superior" in a world of human capitalism, but though we do live in such a world, we also live in a greater concurrent universe that is best understood by the fields least important to capitalism.

>>8568552
>To all the physics and math fags here, how does it feel when CompSci was supposed to be the inferior field but the jobs it offers usually have higher salary?
I'm a physicist and I can basically get every job a computer scientist can get, so I don't care.

Faggot anime poster, pls leave. You don't even understand what you code.

jealousy does explain the hate CompSci gets around here.

Must suck studying physics or math only to then learn that all the high paying jobs went to the CompSci majors. CompSci majors even make more than engineers around where I live.

And for those that think a physics or math degree will land them the same work and pay as a CompSci major: lol no.

>>8568559
Retarded

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>>8569013
>"Anyone talking bad about CS MUST BE TALKING ABOUT WEBDEV" meme

Jesus, this is like a religious mantra for these brainlets.

>>8568563
muh education

>>8568890
I can barely read this....

>>8568842
Sorry we're too busy trying to figure out everything to put certain problems on a pedastel

>>8568852
All of physics is math. You can't do shit in physics without math.

t. physicsfag

>>8568559
Considering that a mathematician or a physicist can change fields to adapt to the job market, I guess that means it'll stay just as important, while computer science becomes less important.

>tfw in cs and hate it
>no idea what else to do

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Wot? I can change to literally anything and take the needed braindead easy subjects in a semester. That's half a year. Half a year you probably spent getting Cs in linear algebra, calculus, and Java.

I'll just continue riding the math train till I reach a point where I am too dumb to progress, then become an actuary ayy lamayo

>>8569907
Kato is a fucking legend

>>8568586

along with everyone else

>>8568555
Comp Sci is a valuable way to learn other fields at an accelerated rate. Building simulations with awareness of important factors such as computational complexities and processing data is way more efficient than reading textbooks and aimlessly using matlab.

Well if you want money you can easily transfer to finance.

Either way machine learning which is the most rapidly growing, complicated and well-paying comp sci field is filled with math and engineerfags. Source, i did applied math and work with it.

>>8569961
Definitely not true. Most of the modelling I've seen CS majors do isn't based on real data, which demonstrates they have very little awareness of any field outside their own. Having the most basic introduction to mathematics as a CS major means they have all their work ahead of them when trying interdisciplinary research. Usually it's someone with a decent mathematical background who goes into CS that builds the best simulations.

>>8569686
all accounting is math you can do shit without math

t. accountant

>tfw almost chose to major in math

I then came to my senses and studied CompSci. I'll never understand the hate for it around here, is it an inferiority complex? I can't see how it's the math since at my uni you need to know more math than a computer engineer for example.

Have fun being poor math and physics fags.

>>8568552
Daily reminder that people with shit jobs don't report their salaries so dick waving with 'expected salaries' for ANY field is completely pointless. There are philosophy majors who are earning 10 x what you will EVER earn, because they found a niche to exploit and know how to network.

You college kids are in for one hell of a rude awakening when you graduate and expect a 6 figure job to be handed to you
t. Chem E

>>8568842
The Millennium Prize Problems are supposed to all be math problems. The problems are selected by mathematicians. It's run by a math institute.

>>8571074
I found myself in the opposite situation. I saw that the industry was starting to realize how bad the education was in most CS classes, that the value of the degree was decreasing, and that you can get any of the same jobs with a good GitHub account. There's much more opportunities open with a math degree.

>>8571118
I guess it depends on the university then. I'd never seen any hate towards CS until I came here. Back at my community college, it was understood that to major in CS you needed to take the same classes as an engineer major to transfer. I never heard about being able to get a CS degree without calculus until I came here.

To be honest, if I was in charge of hiring and I came across a guy with a CS degree from a uni that didn't even require calculus, I probably wouldn't take him seriously.

>>8571074
>implying I give a fuck about money
My only purpose in life is to earn minimal wage. It's enough for what I wanna do.

>>8571086
So other than my dual degree in electronic and computer engineering (which I should get first class honours in), what else do I need to do to start on 6 figures? I've had a brief internship with a financial firm in London and I plan on doing a masters in financial engineering after I finish my undergraduate (I should have a decent chance of getting into Oxford or Imperial with a 1st in EE/CompE). I believe that skill-set should be versatile and employable enough to command 6 figures out of college.

I've looked at a lot of trader jobs in high frequency trading firms in particular, also going to look at the top tech companies and spend an hour or two a day practising interview questions for the top software companies, so data structures and algorithms.

I know networking is important too, my cousin owns a recruitment agency in Sydney and I have some very good contacts from my internship.

I will consider myself a failure if I don't begin on 6 figures .

>>8568608

If anything, machine learning is a rebranding of AI.
So people in AI finally can get jobs.
AI uses a lot of statistics.

Saying statistics is simplified machine learning is a bait. Nonsensical one.

>>8568575
>>8568831

Seriously, that's super ignorant. What a retard.

>>8571734
Which university do you go to currently? Im also planning to apply to Imperial for financial engineering but i do Physics lol

Hey AIfags. Since many of you are replying to this thread, how about helping a future PhD. I have 2 years experience with some AI startups in deep learning and 2 decent publications (not NIPS but some other tier 1 conferences). What kind of salary should I ask for after I graduate? I plan to go into industry and make some quick bucks.

>>8568552
see
>>8568583
Any way, computer science is pretty fucking boss, but its doesn't really endeavour to understand the universe and therefore lacks the curious spirit needed for math and phys. I think a burning curiosity makes someone much more god tier than the normies.

>>8569013
Everything you said is also true in my uni. It's like if people on this board are living a totally different reality hahaha.

>>8569013
:)

>>8568552
>any stem degree can learn cobal and make 70k starting
/thread

>>8571142
Serious question; how screwed am I if my CS program only requires Calc I? Might be able to take Calc II and multivar calc too, but might not due to a crash in schedules. Always thought calculus had little relevance to CS, being focused on continuous phenomena. We do have a good deal of disc math and algebra (linear and abstract).
I get why it's good to have calculus though independently of direct relevance to ones subject seeing as so many things uses it, which is also why I'd like more.

Truth be told math and physics majors literally have the same opportunities computer science majors do. It takes like a week to learn code and be good at it. Nothing special about plugging and chugging shit on a computer. And this is coming from someone who actually is majoring in computer science.

>>8569014
>>8569018
what did they mean by this? is 300k starting not high paying enough?

>>8572300
If you wanna be a GOOD programmer you'll need much more than a week. Learning only syntax and keywords of a language isn't enough. You must know software modeling, programming paradigms, and complexity theory. Each topic spend more than a week and requires a lot of experience to good at it. Math/physics majors do shitty codes because they believe they just need to study a specific language to code and it'll be fine.

>>8572356
Nigga you act like making shitty charts and putting together computer graphics and shit is hard. Okay maybe I exaggerated I'd say maybe a month it would take to become an experienced programmer. you'd have to be a dumbass to not get that shit the after a few weeks lol. Nothing hard about C++ and java and python.

Um hey guys Bio major here. i just wanted to say I feel kinda sad when you folks argue. Both fields are really neat in their own ways. :c

happy new year and god bless

:(

>>8572455
B R E H S

This one belongs to me. Where u at, qt?

>>8572356

To be frank, most computer science majors are also terrible at it.

They are literally terrible at the thing they majored in and did for 2 years straight.

>>8572471
>being this autistic

People hate CompSci because the effort to money earned ratio is a lot lower.
You don't need much effort to get a decent job in CS. On the other hand, you have to try the hardest in Physics and Math to get somewhere with a decent salary.
I know it's not fair but it's how the economy works.
I say this as a CSfag. I feel sorry for Math and Physics people.

>>8572480

>pointing out facts you dislike makes someone autistic.

Nice try, why don't you go back to writing java for nationwide you fucking cuck.

>>8572405
WTF? Software modeling involves planning, not only learn UML and make charts. If you wanna make a big software, you'll have to learn some software engineering methods, otherwise your code will be shit, unreadable, and hard to make any changes afterwards. It isn't hard, but demands practice and experience.

So if you wanna know to code and be a good programmer you'll have to know many languages (Java, C++, Python, Ruby, and a couple of web languages), a lot of frameworks, SQL (and/or other query languages), software engineering, some programming paradigms (divide and conquer, dynamic programming, etc), performance (some complex theory and code optimization in the languages you're studying), graph theory, classical algorithms and data structure (you should be able to choose the best data structure and algorithm for your problem). Then, do you think you can learn everything in a month? lol I'm assuming you took a Intro to Program class at least.

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>This thread
You know faggots that CS is just Applied Math, right?

CS is literally Math's little cute child with [unnamed father and god knows where is he] so if /sci/ hates on CS, that means /sci/ is hating on Math as well
>>8572481
Yes, you're right on the CS but having an Applied Math degree will get you higher paying salaries without much effort but with Pure Math you MUST get into Academia or get a CS minor in order to have a job though.

Don't know shit about Physics but those guys could get into programming and labs as well, don't know much.

>>8572471
Where are you from? Where I live bad programmers often fail in programming courses, consequently they rarely complete their degrees.

Holy shit the anti-CS circlejerk in here is intense, you guys must be ultra butthurt that nobody looked twice at you in grad school in your field so you convince yourself "haha i can just switch to CS and be the top in that field even though I'm painfully mediocre in my own"

>>8571086
>majoring in chem e and giving others life advice
lel

6 figures starting is the norm in select industries

>>8572296
Like I said, every Uni in my area requires all those calc classes and much more math for a CS degree so I can't really comment on a CS degree with little math. I had only heard of such programs here so I can't really comment on your school especially because I don't know how your schools CS classes are like. If your school offers discrete math and other advanced math classes for their program then that's a positive. I still find it weird that some schools don't require calc, or in your case only requires calc 1 but that doesn't mean its a sign that your schools program is horrible. Their program could still be good just not as math heavy as others. Maybe your school considers it more of a liberal arts rather than an engineering/science discipline. Who knows.

If you're unsure then go and check out the programs offered at other schools, compare them with yours and ask local companies about what they think of your schools program. Also see the jobs previous students from your school have gotten in. You could take those classes if you just want to know more math, up to you. Just ask around but I don't think you should worry about it too much. I'm sure you'll be fine in finding a job.

I study alongside a lot of environmental science majors. They will make far less money than me but our drinking water would be poison without them.

Just because someone makes less money than another doesn't mean their value to society is less.

>>8568555
Thats pretty much been what /sci/ has always been about friend. Its a joke board for kids to try and feel superior for their major. I only come here to look for fun threads to post controversial things in for (you)s.

>>8569066
However I agree with you, it sounds like your school may be more of the exception than the rule.
In my opinion, your breed of CS is "worthy" of what I'd consider /sci/.
The real question may be if your experience is universally true, and I'd say unfortunately not.

>>8569192
>does not value all forms of knowledge equally because not all forms of knowledge have equal applications
Exactly.
Sometimes, the application takes many years to come about from the theoretical knowledge

>>8572137
Bump. Pls answer my question desu senpai.

>>8573665
Don't expect a PhD to help bump your salary much more, just think of it as a fast-track to more senior roles or consultancy roles.

>>8572510
Jokes on you, I switched to CS for grad school to avoid the butthurt.
But to be fair, I knew I'd be mediocre in my own, and you're right; not only am I one of the best in my department, but I got accepted to a university about 10 rankings higher than my previous one... So I guess CS is pretty easy, huh.

CS is like business. You can get hired a ton of places but most jobs suck (ie doing code work for some off brand car GPS or a powerpoint feature no one will ever use).

Some of them will go on to make lots of money, most won't.

>>8573705
>doing code work for some off brand car GPS or a powerpoint feature no one will ever use

sounds pretty cool to me bro

In all seriousness, should I go for EE or CS?

I know CS is doing better than EE at the moment, but there's still a possibility that EE would make a comeback in the future when CS becomes saturated as fuck. Right?

>>8574021
>>I know CS is doing better than EE at the moment
>implying EEs can't get CS jobs

>>8574021
CE masterrace

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>>8574021
>>8574528

>>8574558
The only correction I'd make here is that there's a small overlap between EE and CS given that EE students learn to program, and there's a small part of CS that isn't covered by CE, but it's the part that doesn't matter (namely HCI).

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Codemonkeys with just a CS undergrad degree will be face job shortages in 5 years and be completely obsolete in 10. Programs can efficiently write other programs now, thanks to differentiable computing. Screencap this post.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1610.07690

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>>8569075
UW is shit and you're shit.

The CS students there are pants on head retarded, and I know this from experience.

>>8568552
>CompSci pays better than phys or math
Any other "news"?

>>8570216
This argument is pretty fucking dumb because if you go to a non-meme-tier university you get way beyond "basic mathematics" as a CS student.

The worst curriculum I've seen still had the students doing all the available calculus, diff eq, linear algebra, and two junior year courses in statistics.

Most schools just treat comp-sci as math degrees with some programming and computer-science theory classes.

>>8571734
Except that you're still insecure

>>8574673
That sounds like an extremely unrepresentative curriculum. If this were typical for most CS students, then they would probably have a better reputation.

>>8572300
I studied Computer Science for one Semester and dropped out because I didn't understand coding. In Math I was really good, all tests and homework had at least 8/10 points, but Programming? I literally cried every time I did homework because I didn't understand the basics of it.

CS is like a plague in STEM.
Can't wait until AI can make website on-demand so the jobs are dead.

>>8572356
>If you wanna be a GOOD programmer you'll need much more than a week. Learning only syntax and keywords of a language isn't enough
it's enough to create something. all of the other BS (say, OOP, design patterns, etc.) is completely unnecessary, unless you have a big codebase and many devs... and by that time, you should simply let someone else maintain, organize and add features to your code

it's true, though, that learning how to make programs helps a lot, and that you need a good grasp of logic to understand what you are doing

funny how code monkeys have to offend other people to not feel bad about their shit jobs...

>>8575083
> it's enough to create something. all of the other BS (say, OOP, design patterns, etc.) is completely unnecessary

I'll pray everyday for every living gods from every religion in the world to never need to work with you or need to maintain any of your codes.

> unless you have a big codebase and many devs

which corresponds to more than 90% of the programming jobs.

> and by that time, you should simply let someone else maintain, organize and add features to your code

It'll impossible for someone else to do anything in your code since you don't even bother to learn how to do all of the other """BS""".

>>8575060
I cant wait till AI can do every job
so the serfs are dead

Physics/Math fags that are also good at programming do not exist.

>>8574809
I'm physics background myself, and found it a little challenging to get into programming. Some things are just easy to 'click' with than others, like how plenty of people struggle with maths but are good at something else. If you kept going, you'd get it.

>>8575060
>>8575492
I can't wait until AI the singularity quantum computing liquid fluoride thorium reactors em drive solar roadways desu senpai

>>8575083
>my name is anon and i write shit tier code
noted, thanks

>>8574666
this
seeing these code monkey bragging about how they are good at building websites make me rage so much.
I swear the first thing I will do after finishing PhD will be making all this shitheads jobless

I can't believe that there are people who actually choose CompSci over Math.
If you have the capability to do Math. Always choose math, please.

>>8574666
>Programs can efficiently write other programs now, thanks to differentiable computing.

I've skimmed the paper, but all I see is some applications for genetic algorithms and possible applications to neural nets. Please elaborate how this technique can be used to 'efficiently' let programs write programs. (and what you even mean by that, I assume you mean being able to solve some problem it is being presented.

>>8569202
I live in Germany and this is true

>>8569961
This is fucking BS

I am just starting my masters in physics and the lectures CS people do are the most basic experimental shit lectures you have to do. It's basically high school level physics in Germany.

You don't learn anything "accelerated" you just learn the basics and that's not even nearly enough to do something good with your life.

Hence, that's the reason "computional sciences" is a thing. And even those majors have to choose ONE distinct field.

>>8568571
>implying physics or math are trivial

Lelelel. A high end retard

>People still can't refute OP's points
Well, I guess that's it, CompSci here I come.

>>8578577
See:
>>8569202
>>8573705
And for the final point:
> codes written by math/physics fags are the worst, most unreadable shit
Some of most of the widely used libraries are written by people without a CS background.

>People still can't refute OP's points
Hopefully that's refuted all of them...

>>8575083
>unless you have a big codebase and many devs
>Math is easy unless you have to do integrals... and by that time, you should simply let someone else do it.
This is how you sound.

t. butthurt C programmer

Do CS degrees make more than engineers? Namely mechanical engineers & computer engineers.


The uni I plan on going to calls their major computer science and engineering, is there a difference between CS and CSE or it just a fancy name?

>>8580309
CSE is probably CS + CE, so... watered down CE. It depends on the modules.

>>8580309
Lol have fun with the snow nigga I know exactly where you're going to.

And nah cse is pretty broad. It ranges from cs courses to compE courses.