I cannot bring my self to create visual images no matter how

Maybe you're better at other things besides visualization? Or maybe you're just retarded.

>>8498507
saw an interesting article about this on bbc. ill find it for you.

>>8498507
maybe you are and you just think there is something more to it

it's not like you can close your eyes and "see" images as if your eyes were open and looking at it

even when you're dreaming you dont see with your eyes

>>8498512
Im definitely retarded.
>>8498516
That would be appreciated. Hopefully it can be fixed somehow.

>>8498507

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34039054 good luck.

i doubt its anything to do with serotonin. you shouldn't think too much about serotonin and depression. we know barely anything about it and its quite complicated issue to the point that when people say "oh im depressed, my serotonins too low" they are kind of verging on memeing without even knowing it.

>>8498523

by the sounds of it, it is only started to be recently investigated properly in the last 5 years in 1 uni in uk so i doubt it.

>>8498525
Thank you, that really didnt open up but as it hasnt been researched much its not suprising. Not much info on it, but atleast I got name thanks to you, so thanks man.
>>8498541
Yeah, I got the name of it from BBC link and I looked around and it seems you are right.

>>8498547
maybe you can apply for disability.

>>8498507
I guess you don't do any creative work. Is that true?

The reason I'm daydreaming super hard every single day is because I like to create.

A long time of not creating anything and only consuming numbs my imagination a lot.

>>8498547

topkek

you must feel like how people felt 500 years ago when they had diseases but didn't know what the fuck was happening.

must be some unique feels.

>>8498507
Have you ever tried DMR or other psychedelic or hallucinogenic drugs?

>>8498507
Wait, I tought thats how it is supposed to be... Do others see the images they imagine instead of the darkness?

>>8498579
I'm the same. Even on LSD or shit like 3-MeO-PCP I get no closed eye visuals unless I try really hard

>>8498644

yes looool.

i can see lots of people coming on this now saying "i thought thats what it was supposed to be like!" lmao. u guys should get in contact with people doing research.

>>8498650
Does it have anything to do with the ability to lucid dream?

>>8498646
Interesting. However at 100ug LSD I also got barely to none closed eye visuals.
You should try DMT, It gave me so intense visuals that I couldn't see real world, and just had these visuals no matter if I close or open eyes. I have a friend who never had any closed eyes visuals before trying it.

>>8498659
Come to mention it when I took a somewhat low dose of DPT I did see some shit. It blew my mind but I didn't want that shit for hours. DMT would be great because its much shorter.

>>8498656

no clue, literally the majority of papers on it are this or last year.

>>8498579
No visuals from hallucinogenic drugs. Some distortion maybe but not much.
>>8498555
No visual work but I can make up stories and poems and shit.

Always thought that when they said "seeing" they meant imagining. I still see darkness when I close my eyes and imagine. Everything looks the same.

>>8499013
This. You don't actually see, you "see" things in your mind. You can even do it with your eyes open.

Go into a small room that you can touch both sides of like a pantry or bathroom or closet.

With the light on take a good look around you and try to remember where things are.

Now turn the lights off and close your eyes so no light gets to your eyes. Try to navigate the room and find things you saw with your eyes open so you can vizualize your surroundings using memory and touch.

You should get a sense of the direction you are facing and roughly how much space is around you the more you focus on the memory of the room and feeling the area around you.

Pretty basic but still visualization

I might have something similar. I have really good visualization ability but I don't really have an "inner voice". According to Mose people I've talked to they have something's like a voice that talks to them and tells them stuff, but is is them saying it. They say it's like someone is narrating what they're thinking.

ITT: imaginary diseases created in a circlejerk

How, exactly, does one determine how good one is at visual imagination? A question like "how vivid are the pictures in your head?" doesn't get you anywhere because how vivid are they SUPPOSED to be?

>>8499143
no idea, maybe theres tests u can do.

>>8499052
mhmm i wanna hear how that turns out.

>>8499013
>>8499021

god this is so confusing.

>>8498507
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphantasia

Related: are you able to stop thinking ? I thought until recently that when you're asked to "think of nothing", that was a metaphor. But it seems people can actually stop their inner voice... This still baffles me to this day.

>>8499213

Thinking stops from time to time on its own, when you're involved in a task. For most people not thinking is hard, I recommend meditation if you want to experience it, it's really quite a trip imo.

>>8499217
I am most likely mistaken but it seems to me that most meditation/relaxation stuff starts with "think of nothing", as if it was a given that everyone could do it. ;-)

Everyone experiences consciousness differently. I love asking friends how they think. Everyone describes it differently. Some people are more visual, some people more language-based, some both etc... I don't think it matters, everyone seems to function just fine, but I bet if you analysed it there would be correlations with artistic or linguistic skills

>>8499235

You are quite correct, you ARE mistaken. Meditation involves drawing your focus to something, like your breathing, and every time you realise you're thinking about something, just drawing your focus back to the breathing and letting the thought go. Do this for long enough and you will achieve the state of no thought.

>>8499241
How long does this state take to acquire, and what is the reason for doing it?

>>8499245

Depends, it can be minutes or you can never achieve it. As to why, the sensation is quite unlike anything else, and fills you with a wonderful sense of bliss and peace of mind.

>>8498650
I'm not exactly sure what the "norm" is supposed to be. For me, it's not at all like real seeing. There does not appear a picture that I look at in place of the darkness, or anything like that. Rather, focus shifts away from the perception of darkness to an internal image that is more or less unclear. The image of darkness fades out of consciousness; it's not replaced per se. For me, imagining has a different quality from seeing.

While we're at it, what about "thinking"? A friend of mine told me that all his thoughts are verbal, which I find utterly ridiculous. Pretty much none of mine are - I don't have an internal voice talking to me, and I find the concept unimaginable.

>>8499269
If you have no internal monologue at all then how are you able to translate your thoughts into words. i.e. how did you write that post?

>>8499280
The sound and meaning aren't inseparably connected. I don't "hear" anything when I put meaning into symbols, such as during writing or typing.

>>8499258
i think that is normal, the fact you have an internal image. sounds like me.

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I sometimes have crisp imagery in the mornings.
It's like the vague pictures in your mind's eye acquiring photographic detail and filling your field of view.
I guess that's what people with eidetic imagery experience.

>>8499280
you dont literally think about every post you write do you?

The pictures in my head when I imagine things are as real and vivid as anything I see with my eyes. I think in pictures and in abstract concepts, I can't imagine not having a head full of images at all times.

>>8499280
>>8499299
To build on that, the notion of language requiring sound is a bit absurd given the real examples of deaf-blind people becoming capable of verbal communication via braille. The language of thought cannot be fundamentally rooted in sound, or in words either.

>>8499322
Do they help with memory?
Like visualizing pages from textbooks?

Try this OP.

Blindfold yourself. Try walking around your room or house using only your memory of the place. Try to work out what's in front of you. You're not going to see the entire room in your mind all at once, nobody can do that. Just try to focus on one thing at a time, or just enough to avoid bumping into stuff.

That's visualization.

>>8499213
until I was 14 I didn't have an internal monologue unless I was imagining myself having a conversation. My thought were just a stream of though and ideas with no words attached. To this day I'm not good at conversing, I wonder if this had anything to do with it.

>>8499350

Can't say I've ever tried. I usually remember what I read pretty well but I'm not eidetic. Reading (and speaking) is not nearly as easy as thinking in pictures tho.

>>8499354
one more thing, after I turned learned to use an internal monologue it's very difficult to think without one, but I know I was more witty and able to think faster without it. I get panic attacks and have social anxiety and my mind will race to fast my thoughts get all jumbled up. Before when I had no internal monologue when I panicked my though would quicken but they'd just flow together smoothly, kinda like when you're "in the zone."

>>8499330

i actually think it by default is though (not necessarily i guess, but in any healthy person)

language processing extends from the primary auditory cortex.
Reading braille still involves verbal processing, its not a knew language type, its just substituting visual words for bumps.

>>8499370
That's kind of my point - most people may acquire sound-based thinking, or at least perceive that they do, due to not being deaf. From an evolutionary perspective, an affinity of thought to sound via neural structures also makes sense. But the flexibility of the brain in this regard points toward thought not being specifically tailored for sound - the neural structure is a general solution. And since it can find expression through several senses, which means verbal expression will in some cases be acquired substantially later than normal, thoughts themselves must be independent from words. I think that sapience benefits from, but is not limited to, communicative ability.

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>>8499354
>Try this OP.
Not OP.
I did what you suggested for 10 days, 1 hour (very engaged in the process) a day and got nothing appreciable visualization-wise.
What's wrong with me?

>>8499398
very interesting. but can you like imagine walking around your house still if that makes sense?

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>>8499442
>but can you like imagine walking around your house still if that makes sense?
I am
>>8499307
and all of this (crispy hypnopompia) started to happen pre-training.
Blindfold I vaguely see objects I touch and my hands moving in a lighter gray.
I have no problem imagining things.
What's concerning is the lack of progress.
I thought I would get hypnagogic like imagery by doing blindfold exercises.
Instead I got nothing.
I guess it's a long way to go.

>>8498507
Everyone only sees darkness. Use your minds eye. The images don't have to be perfect. They just have to be good enough.

>>8499458
i dont get how the fuck you imagine it without seeing it though. what does that even mean

>>8499458
oh nevermind. i want to find someone who can do the house thing without pictures at all.

come to me, tell me your stories.

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>>8499462
>what does that even mean
If I think about my living room I can give you information about the furniture: position, shapes, textures, colors, etc...
It's not like directly seeing them though.
If you study the page of a textbook or a picture and then close your eyes, you likely can't re-observe it from memory.
You will see a fuzzy image in your mind's eye.
The same with the living room.
On the other hand, when I experience crispy hypnopompia, imagery can be as detailed as watching something with your eyes open.
Vision and mind's eye somehow superimpose.

close your eyes and try to just remember a scene from a movie.
If you "see" it try to change something. Can you do that?

>>8499499
im wanting to know about aphantasic people though

>>8499504
Yes.
That's like daydreaming.

>>8499545
I cant do it

oh well

>>8499548
and you can walk through your house?

>>8499558
Sure, I just cant visualize images in my mind.

To the people claiming they do actually see pictures in there head.

Imagine a tiger.

Now count the stripes.

Can you do this or its not an actual picture you see like looking at a book but a kind of blurred outline of the shape of a tiger?

For reference i cant see anything when i close my eyes and think but i clearly see pictures when im asleep and dreaming.

Im pretty sure everybodys different and i know some people can def see pictures like people who have photographic memories and can memorize a page of a phonebook and read back anything on the page from memory.

>>8499564
i cannot comprehend this. this thread is causing existential crisis.

>>8499571

i think for most people its more the blurred thing. its not like looking at a photo.

>>8499572

I have the same thing.

Its called aphantasia

You still know all the details of everything and can close your eyes and count how many windows your house has etc. You just cant see the house.

>>8499571
Everyone varies.

In your case of the tiger, I can visualize a "tiger". The individual details require me to focus on them, but it gets harder to visualize the "tiger" if I focus on, say, its face. I can move my vision along it (so to speak) and focus on individual bits however. As if I were looking at individual parts of it.

So yes, I can count the stripes. But only when I focus on the stripes being there.

There's also no background (unless I visualize that). It's not a tiger on a black background, the tiger is the only thing there.

>>8499580

it affects approximately 2% of the population, or one in 50 people. Remarkably, though, aphantasics do experience visual imagery in their dreams, so it seems that only voluntary visualisation is affected.

>>8499580
but even if i count, i always get an image. i try to walk through my house without the image and its still there, even if its only very faint. i just dont understand.

>>8499585
will be very interesting to find out why

>>8499590

Imagine you are listening to a radio. You ask your brain a question about how many windows your house has and it tells you. All you can see if black with splotchy white/yellowy blobs like tv static.

>>8499597
yeah i guess so. fucking weird how the mind works.

>>8499606

yeah very, i can still recognize faces perfectly of anyone, know exactly what a tree looks like etc, theres just no picture in my mind.

When i think of a tree my mind is flooded with properties of a tree but no picture of it.

I wonder if this has any application to discussing hard problems of consciousness. probably not but hey.

>>8498507
You don't see images, there are filters in the brain - I can visualize anything I want but it's just a very very very faded semi colored representation of something in darkness.

Only if I'm tired it starts to become more and more vivid.

Fuck yeah Aphantasia thread

So this was a thing I literally only discovered a year or two ago, suddenly being like "wait shit you mean people can invoke dream-style visualizations at will?"

The important distinction (to help people understand) is that it's possible to conceptualize, but not visualize. I can tell you I have dark brown hair and grey eyes and shadows under my eyes and my eyebrows angle downwards at about the one third point, but there is absolutely nothing visual about these things. I'm just reciting facts I know. No amount of straining will invoke an actual image anything close to any kind of dream, not even those sort of weak "dark" dreams that you sometimes get when you're on the edge of consciousness (but maybe that's a thing exclusive to people like us too?), regardless of if I close my eyes or not.

Closing my eyes only presents darkness with some nonsensical passive glowing artifacts, but it's mostly just dull visual noise.

My whole life I thought "picture a dog" or whatever to be a figure of speech. I had no idea people where actually invoking some visual processing part of their brain. If you say "picture a dog" and ask me to describe that dog, I can't, because there's no dog. Like I can list arbitrary facts about a particular dog I remember? But there's nothing to see.

The most practical impact is that I have absolutely no appreciation for literary fiction.

>>8499580

sounds like some people have trolled a couple of psychologists and then they decided it was an actual thing.

people do weird things all the time or maybe some weird form of hypercondria

So I'm like OP, if someone said for me to "imagine a yellow ball" I couldn't do it (how I expect it should be done at least). All I see is black, darkness, can't change it's colour, see any shapes, anything like that - it's just black.

So is the norm meant to be when someone says "imagine a yellow ball" you can close your eyes and see a 3D model of a yellow ball, or you see an image of something similar to a yellow ball you might of seen during your life at some point?

I remember talking to a friend about this and he thought it was really weird that I couldn't see a purple dinosaur if someone said "close your eyes and imagine a purple dinosaur," and I was similarity shocked that he could see shit and it wasn't just black.

Have I been missing out on a means of communicating with, my brain I guess, that everyone else has? fuck

>>8500052
yeah you see a ball in your head. not a clear ball. but it takes your attention to the extent that if you close your eyes, you don't really notice that your vision is really just darkness.

>filename is ‘kaunis’
>that means ‘beautiful’ in Estonian
Are you Estonian by any chance?

>>8499245
how long depends on how good your training and technique is, and this depends very much on who you are and who your teacher is (you can try to do it by yourself, but it can be much harder than just using some guru or psychologist or hypnotist or whatever)

benefits include, but are not limited to
- a way to gain conscious control over your attention (ADD scatter, autismal "loud world", or aspie laser-focus? your choice. any time)
- a way out of unwanted but recurring thoughts
- a way to let the mind work (it's like "sleeping on it" but you're awake and can do other things instead)
- a way (some say, the only way) towards the state of no-self, which if achieved further liberates you not only from unwanted conscious thought, but also from emotion

Imagine being a clinical psychopath. Now imagine being one who has normal or higher intelligence and heightened, instead of reduced or absent empathy. What could you achieve?

There is a difference between seeing something and visualizing something.

Nobody sees vivid pictures when they close their eyes unless theyre dreaming or on psychedelics.

Aphantasia is when if you were to ask somebody to imagine a tiger, then to count the stripes on that tiger, they wouldn't be able to do it because no mental image of the tiger appears.

>>8498507
you are autistic.

>>8499571
>Imagine a tiger.
>Now count the stripes.

I tried this during the day and could only see the outline of a tiger or the stripes. Not both at the same time.

I tried doing it again in bed when I was half asleep. but it lunged at me. I then had to imagine a cage for the tiger. Then it wouldn't stop moving around long enough for me to count it's stripes even to I could very clearly see them.

For those with aphantasia, maybe try lucid dreaming? I know my ability to visualize has increased since I've attempted to learn lucid dreaming.

>>8500178

im not sure it would help you with visual imagery, some guy said that people with it can still dream so but the aphantasia thing might be from a differnet neural abnormality.