Musk Getting BTFO

>>8428021
Try surviving in Alaska without any technology or tools just with your "natural biology".

Humans adapt their environment for survival. The same thing will happen with Mars. This person uses a strawman argument, "natural life on Mars is impossible". When Musk never argued for that. He and anyone sane, aka not a low IQ babby like this faggot, understand living on Mars involves enclosures calibrated to sustain life.

Living on Mars is easier than living on the moon or in space, due to the higher natural gravity. There are also resources on Mars that can be harvested to "sustain" a population.

This little paragraph of arguments by some low IQ shit means nothing.

>>8428021
>Kim Stanley Robinson
literally who?

>>8428021
Same old dumb argument, same flaws, different prettied up pathos wrapping.

The human species cannot handle itself, this much is obvious. If we wish to continue our plague-like spread we have to get out of here before the means, or we ourselves, are gone. It's that simple. There is no reversing or reconciling what has happened here, ecologically, culturally, or socially. It's over. Life has no restarts, but we can only attempt to start over.

>>8428021
>Kim Stanley Robinson
>Occupation Writer
Many keks.

>>8428021
>Kim Stanley Robinson
I once tried reading a book by this person, cause it had a really interesting premise and somehow it turned out to be, no kidding, the dullest thing I've ever read. So this quoted text here is no surprise to me.

>>8428021
That's some serious hippie feel good bull shit right there.

Reason, logic, curiosity, furthering of technology and the species should take precedent to whatever that guy is smoking.

>>8428141
Are you serious mate
Martian temperatures go way below freezing and the atmosphere is 0.6% of earth's
Humans will never survive there unaided

>>8428153
A sci-fi author who wrote a bad trilogy about colonizing Mars.

Like, imagine The Martian if it wasn't funny, nothing went wrong, and it was far, far longer.

the only serious hurdle to Martian colonization, is the light gravity.

>>8428021
OP, see this post: >>8428141

>>8428141
I agree, wholeheartedly.

>>8428153
My thoughts exactly, he doesn't even have a remote background in STEM.

>>8428154
Agreed.

>>8428158
Seconded.

>>8428159
He seems like a 'platitudes kind of guy'.

>>8428166
Agreed again.

>>8428414
Retard, see this post: >>8428141
>Unaided
>>8428141 said:
>Mars involves enclosures calibrated to sustain life
>>8428414
Learn some reading comprehension, dumb dumb.

>>8428466
Why is he even commenting on this, it certainly isn't within his knowledge?

>>8428570
See: "How Do Astronauts Exercise in Space?" (http://uk.pcmag.com/health-fitness/14009/guide/how-do-astronauts-exercise-in-space). I guess they would use something like that?

>>8428593
exercise only helps a little.

anyone born and raised on mars would face deformities.

Unless they built a centrifuge and spun them selves at 1g sim gravity for a hour a day.

>>8428637
Why not? Make it part of the daily exercise regime to remain homo sapien in the long run.

File: 1475372224391.gif (2MB, 277x342px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 277x342px

>colonize Mars

KYS

>>8428021
>it’s very likely that we require the conditions here on earth for our long-term health.
But we don't know until we try. It's a painfully pathetic cop-out to just throw your hands up and say, "whelp I 'spose we can only live here, so we shouldn't do it".

There are even well-suited, capable, and extremely willing people lined up waiting to be sent to build permanent colonies. It's not like we're drafting people to send to Mars or some shit. These people understand the risks perfectly well yet remain undaunted. As long as someone is making it happen one way or another, why stop it?

If humanity followed the logic in OP's quote nobody would have ever sailed the seas or made any of the thousands of discoveries that allow modern life. It's the mindset of a short-sighted luddite.

>>8428637
>>anyone born and raised on mars would face deformities.
Unlikely. The Russians have experimented with rats in various centrifuge-generated artificial gravity environments and ~0.3g (Mars gravity) is well within the minimum needed to prevent atrophy, etc. It's really only microgravity that fucks shit up.

>>8428947
What?

I get how centrifuge can simulate high gravity. How can it reduce it?

>>8429104
First, you build a vacuum tunnel around the world...

Also keep in mind the gloves are off. We could justifiably genetic engineer humans to live on mars. There are known "super human" modifications possible like 5x bone density mutations, tibetan mutations for extreme height survival, and many others.

Not to mention steroids, EPO, and every other random performance enhancing thing.

We have a lot of wiggle room and ability to adapt to a mars enclosure environment.

>>8428141
Pretty sure he's talking about health issues due to the lower gravity etc.

Why do liberals talk as if there is some "humanity" ?

Everything they complain about is their fucking fault too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU7FuAswPW0

>>8429181
There will be some.

Humans aren't adapted to the tibetan plateau either except for tibetans. If you went to tibet and lived there your kids would come out underweight and unhealthy.

Tibetans have a unique genetic adaption to the environment. If you took your arm and held it up next to a tibetan arm, the blood flow is 2x higher in the tibetan's arm.

Humans adapt, genetically, technologically, and otherwise.

Hypothetically I'd imagine there would be a full spectrum of adaptations we would have to try: extreme genetics, technological, drugs, etc.

For instance there are humans just like you, with bones 5x more denser. It's likely we would want to use extremely outliers in terms of human genetics to live on Mars.

Link for some examples and sources. Not going to try and make it academic or super high level. This is all gist of things shit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_adaptation_in_humans#Tibetans_2

http://yalemedicine.yale.edu/autumn2002/news/findings/53806/


I assume life on Mars if it happens, would be similar to most adaptations. The first generation is going to have a shitty time. But we will find the right genetics, drugs, and technology to make it possible.

The life raft analogy is good because this isn't going to be something you would want to experience.

>>8429168
Stuff like this would have to be super secretive. Almost anybody made aware of these violations of humanity would be extremely angry. Most normal people would never accept these freaks as humans.

>>8429213
Basically, you would find the points of fault or predict them. Choose people with the correct outlier genetic traits (genetic engineered if possible). Choose the right drugs and doping necessary. Choose the right lifestyle (exercise). etc.

It's not going to be something a normal human could survive in but we have 7,000,000,000 people, technology, genetic engineering, and drugs.

It's definitely not impossible.

>>8429104
The experiments were conducted in orbit

>>8429214
Public opinion is fickle and quick to go the other way. The day a healthy "genetic engineered" baby is born is the day the majority of Americans will support it. As happened with IVF.


1969: A Harris poll finds a majority of Americans believe that in vitro fertilization goes "against God's will."

.A month after the July 1978 birth of the first IVF-conceived baby, Louise Brown, a Gallup Poll found that a quarter of Americans opposed IVF as "not natural." But 60% said they favored IVF because of the help it could provide to infertile couples.

>>8429225
>genetically engineered human
>considering this human
>supported by americans
>not immediately drowning it
you should be careful who you share your insane inhuman fantasies with.

OP is right. Also, Musk is completely wrong if he thinks a mass Migration will be triggered if going to Mars will cost you "only" 500k. The Europeans settled the Americas because it was an extremely large, extremely rich land that was screaming for Colonisation. Mars is about as screaming for Colonisation as the Sahara and the Antarctis is. Even less so. Now who would leave their cozy homes to build himself something new in the rich and fertile lands of Sahara and Antarctis?

Okay, there will be some Hype and in the beginning some People will want to go just for the sake of going to Mars. But this Hype will die out as soon as the first Colonialists are going to die. And looking and SpaceX they probably will die like flies. 10% will probably die in the FIREBALL of the exploding rocket before even making it into space. At least based on SpaceX's current rate of success.

>>8429241
I have kinda viewed mars as an austrialia

the first settlers will be a very motley bunch

the pioneer will be great

they'll probably end up forcing unwanted people of society when we do start colonizing mars

either that or it'll me some international hegemony like NATO there.

>>8428021
>-Kim Stanley Robinson

I guess he really is BTFO then.

>>8429281
Australia is more like the USA. Its good land and going there actually makes sense. The only reason to go to Mars is the Hype of going to Mars. That Hype will die out once People realize going to Mars means probably killing yourself, and that life there is miserably and boring.

>>8429281
The Outback is still empty.

>>8428021
>inflicting a sixth mass-extinction event on earth and itself
Oh eat shit you over-dramatising popsci faggot

>>8429296
I think the aspect of becoming one of the founding fathers of the first interstellar colony might become very appealing to the daring, educated, and power hungry

and theres a lot of 18 year olds with trust funds
disilliousined war veterans and maverick tycoons

>>8429335
Kim isn't popsci, little boy.

>>8429340
BA in literature. PhD in English. Feels qualified to talk about scientific topics because he writes about it. He's pretty much the definition of popsci

>>8429364
Colonizing Mars isn't a scientific problem. It's a political problem.

>>8429214
Body enhancments are okay by people.
The brain must be untouched though

>>8429339
I dont think so. First of all not everyone who wants to is fit for doing it. The Crew has to be schooled in the complex handling of the space ship and all Kinds of other complex robotics. They are the only ones who could repair disfunct Instruments. Further more several physical Attributes have to be met. Only People who are of excellent health can go. Essentially, only People who qualify to be an Astronaut would qualify for Colonization. I dont know how large that percentage of the populous is, but its certainly not very big. So the amount of People you can potentially recruit Colonizers from is much smaller than you might think. Lets now also be realistic and accept the fact that 500k per Colonizer all costs included is ridiculous. It will be several millions at least. The schooling alone will cost millions and will take several years. So from These small amount of humans who are theoretically capable of becoming space pioneers only a small number will have the financial means to finance the trip itself. But we are probably still talking about potentially millions of colonizers, no doubt. But These People we have now categorised are essentially having the perfect life on earth. They are smart, rich, healthy and Young. Now These People are seeing that 10% of the colonizers are dying just trying to leave earth, and an additional x% are dying travelling there, landing on mars, or while living there. From the People who are actually living there they only hear how miserable, boring, and dangerous life on Mars is. There will probably still be a couple of hundreds to at best a couple of thousands People left who are willing and able to go. But These are not enough to build up a meaningful colony. A colony of hundres or thousands will just be a fancy survival camp, but nothing that will ever terraform mars.

>>8429370
Then why are you posting here?
>>>/pol/

>>8429370
>Colonizing Mars isn't a scientific problem
In many ways, it is, but I wasn't even talking about colonising Mars. I was talking about his overly dramatic reference to climate change

>>8429390
>overly dramatic reference to climate change
American detected.

I am conflicted about his plans. On the one hand it's very cool to build a colony, on the other hand it would fuck up forever our chance to find microbial extraterrestrial life on Mars.

>>8429400
>Implying humans will literally go extinct along with a large portion of life because of global warming
Brainlet detected. Also,
>American detected
No

>>8429375
>The Crew has to be schooled in the complex handling of the space ship and all Kinds of other complex robotics.

With the current state of artificial Intelligence and also seeing as how we have sent several unmanned spaceships to mars . The crew would need minimal experience or diagnostivs could be done sperately.

Also if you saw his plans for the actual rocket he's planning on sending up he's plaaning on having it stocked with shopping malls and food courts and shit. He'll probably have equipment specialists. on his ships.
I mean not every passanger on an airplane or a boat needs to know how to sail and repair it.

Also elon musk knows his engineering. So he's probably looking to make the ships parts easy to swap out or replace or repair as possible.

>Further more several physical Attributes have to be met. Only People who are of excellent health can go. Essentially, only People who qualify to be an Astronaut would qualify for Colonization.
Elon said that isn't the end goal of the ship. He's planning on having a person of average health, or rather decent enough health to go.
You don't need to be in peak physical conditions to go scuba diving or sky diving do you?


schooling wont cost millions
and it wont take several years

and sponsorships could be a real thing

but I know that the future is going to be so bright
you think McDOnalds, Coca-Cola or Paramount pictures, or comcast don't want to establish buisness on a martian colony?

>. A colony of hundres or thousands will just be a fancy survival camp, but nothing that will ever terraform mars.

I think settlements of hundresd are considered villages
and thousands are towns or cities.

Im sorry you think the future seems so bleak anon.

>>8429375
>The schooling alone will cost millions and will take several years.

Bullshit, what they'll need is likely some bootcamp preparation for a few weeks, and then off they go.

Obviously the whole purpose of it is making sure you don't need this stuff, don't need to be able to calculate your position by hand, etc

Oh, I thought this was about how he gets welfare for his business so basically generates all profits. But hey, welfare is bad when it's only feeding them lazy niggers, right?

File: 327027[1].jpg (80KB, 450x634px) Image search: [Google]

80KB, 450x634px

>>8428021
>moral sense

>>8429536
>>8429484
If Musk is really planning sending People to Mars with some weeks of preperation he is fucking insane.

>>8429484
For passing the driving license you Need some weeks of practice. For Setting a colony up on a different planet you Need skills that take years to acquire. You guys are incredibely delusional.

>You don't need to be in peak physical conditions to go scuba diving or sky diving do you?

To got skuba diving or sky diving ON YOUR OWN you Need years of experience.

>you think McDOnalds, Coca-Cola or Paramount pictures, or comcast don't want to establish buisness on a martian colony?

About as much as they want Setting up businesses in the Sahara.

>>8429613
?
If you are hired by a company to go to do welding in the arctic circle, you aren't doing years of preperation

>>8429623
They also take no one without Prior experience in the field.

>>8429632
Yea and mars is going to need people to do regular jobs on mars, so they'll be taking people with experience & are willing to go there

>>8429618
>To got skuba diving or sky diving ON YOUR OWN you Need years of experience.
This is so untrue

>>8429634
>>8429632
Do you guys even realize that one mistake by one of the colonials can kill People or fuck up the colony for good? You guys seem to think by reading a Flyer about space colonization you are automatically a flawless space pioneer.

Would you guys seriously go to a different planet inhabited by guys who dont really know what they are doing?

>>8428141
Haha, this post gave me a good laugh! Why don't we drop you off on Mars, see how you can adapt to the radiation and cold for a start?

>>8429640
the original maybe 100 people will be professionals, sure
But not always.

>>8428021
>lets colonize mars
>limited understanding of phyiscs
>too many dreams can't wake up

until we've got a way to reach space cheap , have an engine that uses low ammounts of fuel and give up high thrust for interplanetary travel

have docking station around the earth and dockstation around mars , it's quite unlikely that actual colonization can happen.

Before europeans colonized the americas , they had build towns on the coast with harbours so they can load and unload easily.

So first have a fucking orbital space station around both Earth and Mars , then you can fucking colonize it.

Sending people to Mars without is certain death.
And a cheap way to send things to space would be a space elevator , the country that builds it first and can develop some ways to generate actual artificial gravity (like spinning with centrifugal/centripedal forces to act as gravity)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7WJ9FPEYU4

Now Musk is bascily going throught a middle life crysis as his dreams of space travel goes away , but i'm sorry mr Musk , you make money , you don't really inovate.

Often I've talked with a friend about this , why doesn't this people with shit tone of money give away 100.000 dollars to some retarded at some university that may have a crazy enough idea.

100.000 dollars for him is not much , but for a kid at M.I.T can be enough to keep him going for years , in those years he can have the time to figure out the things that we actually need for space travel/colonization.

Even if the experiement fails he may figure out something that usually people don't want to find , can find. Since usually people work 8-10 hours go home doing having an sub-par efficienticy.

File: osteomalacia.jpg (30KB, 250x202px) Image search: [Google]

30KB, 250x202px

>Colonize Mars
>0.38 gravity of Earth

Jello Babies
Jello Babies
Jello Babies
Jello Babies
Jello Babies

>>8428593
>I guess they would use something like that?

There's more to it than that. Astronauts in space over 6 months start to lose their vision due to no gravity affecting skull pressures. at 38% gravity of Earth, Mars "colonists" will experience the same thing, but it will take years longer. Infants born in such low gravity won't be able to gain proper bone mass. It won't be something as simple as "they won't need strong bones because there's less gravity". It will be, "they are severely twisted and deformed and can't function properly even in the low gravity."

The role that full 1g plays on human development during infancy is quite great.

>>8429644
Musk wants to steadily grow his colony. To Keep it steadily growing is pretty much as hard as Setting it up. Okay, destroying the whole colony will probably be not as easy once it reaches a certain size. But a mistake by one of the colonizers can still kill a great amount of People, do damage in the trillions, and set the colony back by a big margin. You are delusional if you think Plumber Joe is going to Mars any time soon.

>>8429701
There's actually a good chance that the embryo won't develop correctly in the first place in lower gravity.

>>8429705
I love that we haven't even done pregnancy in space yet and this Musk fag wants to colonize Mars.

>>8429753
>we haven't even done pregnancy in space yet and this Musk fag wants to colonize Mars.
It's been tested with rats. There was nothing to indicate in the experiment that pregnancy in Mars gravity would cause problems, since the only problem in zero-g was that the rats didn't learn to orient themselves to gravity.

The only place to experiment with pregnancy under completely accurate Mars conditions is Mars.

Kim who? I've never even heard of this dumb bitch, she shouldn't be criticizing anyone much less a great man like Elon Musk.

>>8429241
Assuming the colony gets kicked off successfully, Mars will be in dire need of people to do practically everything for a long time. This means that there will be jobs there, and anyone going there to work will be valued much, much more highly than they would be here on Earth doing the same job. As an example, guys running running pizza shops are a dime a dozen here on earth and nobody would give a shit if one of them closed their shop, because there's 500 other pizza shops in the city. On Mars on the other hand, the first guys to open pizza shops are going to be the only games in town and they're going to be loved and adored by colonists.

That example in particular is probably bad because pizza is a luxury item in the context of a Mars economy, but you get the point. For the first few decades and perhaps even the first century of human colonization of Mars, jobs that have lost their value entirely on Earth will become extremely valuable and needed on Mars.

>>8429701
We don't know any of that because no human has ever lived in a .38g environment. .38g is dramatically different from microgravity, and as such we cannot assume that the effects will be the same or even similar.

>>8429884
Rats are not humans. You can go to mars and have some retard child with your wife, but I'm not really feeling like it.

>>8429994
Pizza guy is a bad example because there is no good example

>>8430012
Anyway, it's not like it would be impossible to have artificial gravity on Mars.

The ground is very stable (no tectonic activity), wind forces and drag are negligible, and there's practically no oxygen to cause corrosion, so it would be easy to build spinning structures if full Earth gravity is necessary for any phase of development.

Think of those carnival rides where everyone sits on swings hanging from a big wheel that spins around. There's no reason a thing like that can't carry comfortable pods to live in. Or you can do a track in a circle, which would be easier to put underground. Lots of ways to do it.

>>8428021

nobody is forcing anyone to go to mars. if YOU don't think mars should be colonized, THEN DON'T COLONIZE MARS.

realistically mars will become a military threat to earth in year 2100 and will be far advanced.

File: d39129c42d1cd69d569840db3cb0ec31.jpg (276KB, 443x525px) Image search: [Google]

276KB, 443x525px

How do you think Elon smells?

>>8430090
musky

File: 1476788532396.png (90KB, 600x600px) Image search: [Google]

90KB, 600x600px

>>8430125

Elon Musk
Melon Husk
Melonusk

>>8428570
and the whole cosmic rays
and the lack of natural resources

Man, the sheer amount of Muskian apologists in here is astounding. It's as if everyone is vicariously experiencing his midlife crisis. So, what happens when all these foolish ambitions of "yes, we can" fails due to another devastating economic downturn where private money investment evaporates?

Love to hear more info on methane clathrate extraction.

>>8429643
that is just a matter of political will and raising capital.

Musk's ITS rocket system is completely with in existing technology.

>>8430147
big settlements into teh ground a little. pile the debris over the structures for shielding.

the biggest concern with resources is getting sustainable farming going and hydrocarbon feedstocks for producing various things. metals and energy are easy to produce on mars.

>>8430220
>u guys are gay musk is gay you fools cant do it

Get in line and add it to the garbage pile.

Out of everything you could have contributed, you mock ambition, mention a possible economical burden that would last a few years that could be temporally filled by musk's extra future billions until people could afford it again if it really was that bad, and a basic engineering problem.

Instead of hazily boiling down everyone else's valid pro Mars arguments as ''haha those guys support musk what fag bois'', why not address them directly and try to counter the fundamentals of Mars colonization? Examples of good fundamental points against colonization so far are possibly detrimental health problems, lack of short term development of the true infrastructure to get on the course of being self sustaining, and that's about it to my knowledge, everything else isn't a big deal and can either be solved or ignored.

>>8430319
>>the biggest concern with resources is getting sustainable farming going and hydrocarbon feedstocks for producing various things. metals and energy are easy to produce on mars.
And people keep talking as if SpaceX plans to send people before anything else, while in reality by the time an ITS launches for Mars with a crew of 5-12 people there will have been several Red Dragons and an unmanned ITS dropping equipment and supplies ahead of time. If you include the cargo sent on the first manned ITS, the first humans to set foot on Mars will have over 600 tons of equipment and supplies at their disposal, with more coming in a couple of years. It still won't be a cakewalk but it's not like they'll have nothing to work with.

>>8430348
they make motor oil from natural gas.

so if you build up enough methane production on Mars. you can produce liquid hydrocarbon feedstock to produce plastics. find a nitrogen and phosphor source and you have fertilizers.

>>8430329
>totally got baited

>>8430090
With his nose, like most everyone else.

File: 1473578784076.webm (1MB, 578x720px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 578x720px

>>8430008
.38g is 38% better than microgravity. So, diseases will take 38% longer to occur. Thus, problems with their eyes will take about 8.28 months to start having blurry vision.

lol

File: 10_natural_gas_processing.jpg (245KB, 1340x500px) Image search: [Google]

245KB, 1340x500px

>>8430348
Fit this on your rocket, faggot

>>8429753
Actually,

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0006753

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0089296

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0151062

File: portable-biogas-digester.jpg (8KB, 200x170px) Image search: [Google]

8KB, 200x170px

>>8430562
>>8430348
If you really want viability you use something like this. You can turn organic waste products into biogas methane and high nitrogen fertilizer. The inputs in energy are made up of microbes and waste product. even maintaining temperature for the unit can be done without its output and still have the majority of its energy output be usable. Of course, it is merely 1 unit of a larger cycle for a base or space station that needs to be more self sufficient.

>>8430579
You also get lots of Hydrogen sulfide from that which is used in a variety of important industrial applications.

>>8430579
Helpful, but don't be naive enough to believe it would even scratch the surface of a colony's energy footprint.

File: HTB1zrRiGpXXXXcbXXXXq6xXFXXXS.jpg (73KB, 600x355px) Image search: [Google]

73KB, 600x355px

>>8430622
I'm constantly surprised what a properly designed and implemented biogas methane digester can do in terms of energy and fertilizer production.

It is based solely on how much organic wastes you are producing. That's food scraps, agriculture scraps, and feces from all sources. Obviously, Mars-type colony will have extraordinary energy needs that are extremely unusual. Like they will need to mine and refine metal ores, make parts, build things, etc. A biogas methane digester is but one cog in the machine for stuff like this. It's products are many and much needed.

Also, your posts suggests that this is a all-in-one energy solution. Nothing is that for such a remote base. You need overlapping systems and redundancy. This one just happens to be about as free energy as you can get. Since all the work is being done by the microbes that is. You don't have to put energy into the system from an outside source because of that one point. Instead you put mass into it.

Sorry for using that trigger term.

>>8430560
Except biology is almost never linear. It's all thresholds and curves.

>>8430696
Next time I'll use: :O)

To get the point across, I thought the lol and cat image were enough.

>>8429994
Just like the initial colonization of America.

>>8429168
>5x bone density
Have fun getting enough vitamin D to maintain that while your on Mars.
Also, all of those things are only helpful if we can find long-term means to continue producing them on Mars. I still haven't seen any viable proposals for long-term, large-scale agriculture or mining on Mars.

>>8430898
*you're

>>8430898
That is because we have to develop a close-system here on Earth, where only weaker sunlight would be able to get in. If that example isn't done on Earth, it will never happen on Mars. Thus far, we've only had separate components that work, but never anything as a whole work long term. There's always been some massive failure either by design or budget.

Simply put though, humans will never successfully colonize Mars. It is impossible due to gravity. It is far more viable to create O'Neil Cylinder space stations instead. That can be done much closer to the sun where more energy can be used. We can do that right now with our current level of technology in all fields.

>>8430921
>closeD-system

>>8430562
Just ship multiple bundles of subcritical masses of uranium to space

bam, power for years

>>8430546
heh, see i tricked u i was only pretending to be retarded heh... gotchya

>>8430562
you only have to send the tools needed to make the tools to make that.

>>8428466

That sounds horrible, and with little to no imagination which is key when creating something. Simply tepid.

He might has well been an accountant. What is he, an ISTJ?

>>8430968
>Kim Stanley Robinson

Oh, an INFJ. That explains it: he is simply trying to sound small, but offers no real underlying understanding of the situ or a real solution.

Yeah, INFJ's talk out there ass. They are as egotistical about knowledge as an INTJ, but without the T part.

>>8430975
sound smart*

their ass*

Pretty drunk here.

>>8430968
That is a lot of hate bait, out of nowhere for no reason directed at someone who isn't even posting in this thread. What spectrum are you?

>>8430980
>What spectrum are you?
>Pretty drunk here.

Now it all comes together.

>>8430659

Wouldn't a more efficient solar panel and better capacitors solve a lot of these problems?

>>8431004
You misunderstand. You have to do something with the feces and wastes you make constantly. You don't just toss it in a hole and cover it over or jettison it out an airlock. You extract everything from it you can possibly get. The method in the image in >>8430659 is just the first step in a cycle.

This has nothing to do with the best energy creation method. This has to do with using everything available and keeping as much of it inside the close system as you can. Even just burning it won't give you all the benefits from it. Because you are on another planet, trying to build a colony. You're not in San Jose trying to order pizzas and relying on an existing system.

>>8430921
>Thus far, we've only had separate components that work, but never anything as a whole work long term.
No motivation. Biosphere 2, for instance, was a half-assed stunt, where they tried to make a balanced ecosystem but were so incompetent that they failed to factor in the freshly-poured concrete. Mars One tier.

Anyway, on Mars it doesn't need to be a closed system. The soil is rich with minerals, including nitrates. Water and CO2 are available. They can dump all of their sewage to freeze in cisterns and just never recycle any of it if they want.

What we do have is experience with producing supplies for nuclear submarines, which can stay submerged for years if necessary. So it's just a matter of having enough industry on Mars to produce the supplies.

We don't need some delicate self-balancing ecosystem. We can already grow food in vats using chemical energy sources like methane or hydrogen. That's fine for simple stuff like starch, sugar, cooking oil, and protein, and also enables production of meat and mushrooms. For a wide variety of flavorful low-energy crops, we can use vertical farming techniques, even using grow lights if necessary.

>>8431004
The problem with solar panels on Mars is not about efficiency. There simply isn't enough energy from the sun reaching the surface of Mars to make solar panels viable. Even if we reach insane levels like 90% efficiency, it's still 90% of fuck all.

>>8431041
>You don't just toss it in a hole and cover it over or jettison it out an airlock. You extract everything from it you can possibly get.
Why? Did you think that's how we do it on Earth?

Mars isn't lacking in raw materials, and energy's only limited by the solar collectors or nuclear reactors you set up.

>>8431053
It is still the only viable power source until we get a nuclear reactor going.

Atmosphere is too damn thing for windmills.

Mars rock is too cold for geothermal.

>>8431043
http://www.space.com/21554-mars-toxic-perchlorate-chemicals.html
The soil is also toxic. So there's that.

>>8431057
No, that's not how we did/do it on Earth. We have a massive support system called "nature" that did it all for us first.

If you want a proper agriculture system for a Mars colony stuff like >>8430659 and >>8430579 is exactly how you do it from the start. It cuts right through all the big "ifs" on making artificial fertilizer, which takes more resources and facilities that do not give much back in terms of efficiency.

>>8431060
Sure, it's the closest thing (other than nuclear) to a viable source. That doesn't make it viable.

>>8431053
That's stupid. It's 43% as much sunlight, nearly half, and it's easier to set up concentrators because there's less gravity and much less peak wind force to worry about.

>>8431043
Sir, you are missing a great many bits of knowledge that completely wrecks what you are trying to say.

The first thing is that every thing you are stating is using up energy and not giving back very much at all. It also relies on taking things from the environment for it to work. Which is a huge gamble.

The best thing to do is BOTH things. Not just one. Or rather do all of these things.

Besides, feces and organic wastes are already absolutely perfect. You have to do extremely little to get it to work for you.

>>8431068
>The soil is also toxic.
Not a problem for anything but contact with raw Martian soil. Perchlorates decompose under heat, and heating Martian soil would release a variety of useful volatiles (including nitrogen and oxygen). They're also soluble, and can be washed out of the soil.

They'd almost certainly be cooking a lot more soil for volatiles than they'd be using to make planting soil.

>>8431084
>Besides, feces and organic wastes are already absolutely perfect. You have to do extremely little to get it to work for you.

Unlike taking time to find then drill working gas wells, mining resources, extracting them from unwanted things, so on and so forth.

Putting shit and waste in a bucket, putting a lid on it, sticking a hose from it to a sealed bag, and waiting for it to fill with methane is pretty damn simple. Maintaining it is just removing high-nitrogen fertilizer and adding in more waste. A shit load more simple than anything else you can do on Mars in trying to attain resources from it.

Alas, you can also make it complicated, like extracting hydrogen sulfide from it, if needed.

>>8431084
>every thing you are stating is using up energy
Energy is probably the easiest thing to get. The main trouble with solar panels on Earth is that they're relatively expensive and have cheaper, more convenient competition.

What they aren't is heavy, so you can take lots of them with you from Earth.

>The best thing to do is BOTH things. Not just one. Or rather do all of these things.
The best thing is to have the most complicated operation possible?

>feces and organic wastes are already absolutely perfect
No, human feces is fucking nasty. It spreads disease, and it gets contaminated with persistent drugs and heavy metals.

reminder that musk pays shills to defend him online

File: damn nigga calm down.gif (1MB, 446x270px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 446x270px

>>8431102
>No, human feces is fucking nasty. It spreads disease, and it gets contaminated with persistent drugs and heavy metals.

Oh, I see the problem. Wow. You should really do some research into "biogas methane" "GoBar Gas" and "biomethane". There's literally no reason to be discussing this if you have absolutely no idea what it is and are reacting to this limited conversation in that manner.

>>8431102
>heavy metals

Martian soil already has that.

>persistent drugs

Why send sick people to Mars?

>spreads disease

Heat treating the final fertilizer product is the last step. This pasteurizes the fertilizer.

>human feces is fucking nasty

Agreed.

>The best thing is to have the most complicated operation possible?

The most redundant operation possible. That is already how the space craft, space stations, and related are designed. Backups, redundancy, and interchangeability are key to preventing disasters that end up killing people.

>solar panels

Sure they can have those too, that is quite fine.

>>8431108
You're concerned with the amount of methane you'd get from composting human feces?

That would make a completely negligible contribution to the energy needs of a colony.

>>8431137
>>heavy metals
>Martian soil already has that.
Not as bad as sewage.

>Why send sick people to Mars?
Because we're talking about colonizing, not sending a handful of the most perfect people you can find to plant some flags and go home in a couple of years. Illness and treatment are things you have to factor in.

>The most redundant operation possible.
Sewage processing isn't a redundancy for actually gathering new materials.

>>8431172
Making better fertilizer is actually one of the long term needs. It is perfect for the loop of food and agriculture. Which is why biogas plants are becoming a huge thing now.

Also, its energy creation isn't negligible since it is methane which can be used for heat or electric generation.

>Not as bad as sewage.

We are talking about animal/human waste and organic wastes. All things people and animals create. There shouldn't be heavy metals in that in the first place.

>Illness and treatment are things you have to factor in.

Which doesn't matter in this process, that is why it is so great.

>Sewage processing isn't a redundancy for actually gathering new materials.

You are completely incorrect. You are just terrified of poop for some reason.

>>8431195
Some of >>8431195 is meant for >>8431185 obviously.

Seems /sci/ knows nothing about biogas methane.

>>8431207
To be fair, /sci/ doesn't know much about hydrocarbons in general.

File: Home-Biogas-unit-3.jpg (263KB, 1088x532px) Image search: [Google]

263KB, 1088x532px

>>8431207
ikr

>>8431217
In farm country, it is a typical science fair project because kids can use any water jug and some biomas to make sure and stuff for their booth. Although, sewage and waste has a stigma in the USA and Europe. Though, places like Germany and India are going nuts for bio-methane plants small and large.

Lemme get this straight

Is the author in OP saying Musk should stop wasting $10 billion on a silly Mars mission and instead contribute it to the $1.5 trillion a year already spent combating climate change?

>>8431195
>Making better fertilizer is actually one of the long term needs.
What do you mean "better fertilizer"?

>its energy creation isn't negligible since it is methane
Learn thermodynamics.

>There shouldn't be heavy metals in that in the first place.
I'm not talking about "should be", I'm talking about the way it works.

>>Sewage processing isn't a redundancy for actually gathering new materials.
>You are completely incorrect.
Go fuck yourself. They're going to be building, producing fuel, and things like that. A colony has to grow, and they can't do that with recycling instead of mining. You can wrap your lips around your asshole after you've built all the way around Mars. Until then, sewage isn't a resource, just a hygiene problem.

How do we deal with dead human bodies on Mars?

The contents of their bodies are too valuable to bury and let rot. We need a dignified way of processing the bodies into useful substances. While removing the stigma of cannibalism.

>>8431228
Musk has realized that most of humanity is too stupid or ideological bound to do anything effective about global warming. So he is working on plan B.

>>8431228
>been talking science so much ITT it is hard to remember it is a musk meme thread

>>8431230
>What do you mean "better fertilizer"?

Fertilizer that is more bioavailable to plants than unprocessed waste products or straight chemical fertilizer that lacks the compliments of additions Earth-made chemical fertilizers have. You can't just toss nitrogen fertilizer on plants and hope for the best without the rest of the support system.

>Learn thermodynamics.

Learn biogas methane.

>I'm not talking about "should be", I'm talking about the way it works.

That isn't a correct answer. Where are these heavy metals coming from so they end up in human and animal feces and food waste before entering the system?

>A colony has to grow, and they can't do that with recycling instead of mining.

You misunderstand. Crapping into a toilet is something they already do. A turnkey biogas methane unit just connects to the toilet. You hook it up, to the sewer system, electric, heating, fertilizer collection, and that's it. They run themselves.

>Until then, sewage isn't a resource, just a hygiene problem.

It is obvious you know nothing about the subject. I suggest researching it before posting again.

>>8431228
Yeah of course, what are you stupid? every little helps

>>8431242
>>Learn thermodynamics.
>Learn biogas methane.
Stop trying to make "biogas methane" happen, it's not going to happen.

I get that you have no clue and you're very excited, but Earth has an abundance of biomaterial that could be fed into digesters. Many millions of times more than what we produce in sewage.

When we produce food, far more energy goes into making it than ends up in the food itself. When we eat food, unless we eat a huge amount of fiber (and it's unlikely that they'll waste energy on Mars growing food heavy in indigestible fiber), we get most of the energy value out of it. What's left to be reclaimed from it, by ideally efficient methods, is a few percent of what was in the food, and well under one percent of the energy that went into producing the food.

And food production is going to be far from the biggest energy cost of running a colony.

>>8431226
No one is disputing the viability of anaerobic digestors. Multitude of uses. Ferment, often called "compost tea", utilized as foliar spray, inhibits plant blight. But you're underestimating the the sheer magnitude of waste required for an acceptable volume of methane output. On Mars, it is best left to agricultural applications. The methane requirement is far broader than energy production when accounting for hydrocarbon cracking to produce requisite chemical building blocks. If traditional E&P fails to yield viable wells, we'll strip mine methane clathrate.

>>8428153
Musk btfo

File: Audi_power_to_gas_plant.jpg (250KB, 1294x562px) Image search: [Google]

250KB, 1294x562px

>>8431273
We are talking about Mars, but Earth-based biomethane production is how large farms get rid of their waste legally. Like this large biogas methane electric plant in Europe (pic).

Here's an example of a very large biomethane plant and how it works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCebM7a5XBQ

These are of course scalable as you can see in the images in >>8431226 and >>8430579

>>8431291
>No one is disputing the viability of anaerobic digestors.

Someone is. lol

>But you're underestimating the the sheer magnitude of waste required for an acceptable volume of methane output.

Not at all. However, humans create a lot of waste. The methane is just one bonus for making better fertilizer. The entire process helps itself in maintaining its heat level. It is also a 100% good bet because the method is easy, the fuel resource already acquired, and the biomass is always being produced. All the mining and drilling methods rely far too much on the hope that it will be viable in the time frame it is needed. You could have biogas methane and high-nitrogen fertilizer being made aboard the first ship before even arriving, just for the starter culture, since it can take 3-6 months to get the process started without a good culture to start with.

>>8431239
You mean: "I can't live in reality with all the accumulating human caused cascading destructive forces on Earth, best live in a fantasy"

>planning for one in million year event
>undergoing sixth mass extinction

>>8431309
Is this your field of research?

>>8431309
>>No one is disputing the viability of anaerobic digestors.
>Someone is. lol
No, nobody is. You're just spectacularly stupid. What everyone's saying is they're little to no use on Mars, for reasons that have been explained in detail and you have no answer for. Nobody's even talking about whether they work or are useful on Earth.

So what's the deal with the mars? Is it protected or can anyone go there and rape it of resources then? And the first person there is king of the hill?

I think Musk thinks mars was a cool idea, but really now he just wants to be remembered as the guy who made it happen. Total ego trip going on

>>8431310
This
Shit like Musks little hobby is part of popular cultures total disconnect with reality

File: 150212114913-elon-musk-market-cap-780x439.jpg (75KB, 780x439px) Image search: [Google]

75KB, 780x439px

>>8428021
i'm surprised at how little musk getting there is in here. jesus talk about sucking your own dick

Recycling sewage on earth is "practical" because of government subsidies, not because it makes any sense to do.
Also its a pollutant which noone gives a shit about on mars.

For the foreseable future they are just going to dump it into a hole and maybe make use of it at a later date.

>>8430012
lmao, gtfo idiot

>>8431316
>No, nobody is.

You haven't read the thread, have you?

>What everyone's saying is they're little to no use on Mars,

That is viability. Learn English, kid.

>you have no answer for

Several people have explained it in detail.

>Nobody's even talking about whether they work or are useful on Earth.

Read the thread, kid.

>>8431643
>How to spot a fucking moron: example post

>>8431314
Eat shit nigger.

File: 0064.jpg (39KB, 472x472px) Image search: [Google]

39KB, 472x472px

>>8431963
MODS!

>>8429168
We could just use some robots to do the dirty stuff for us

>>8431963
>Several people have explained it in detail.
Nobody has come up with any remotely plausible case for why fermenting sewage on Mars would be a significant energy source, in response to the clearly-made case of why it can't be a significant energy source.

The methane you'd get from fermenting sewage would contain a small percentage of the energy contained by the food, which would be a small percentage of the energy that went into making the food, which would be a small percentage of the energy used by the full colony.

>>8428414
>Humans will never survive there unaided

To be fair, Humans can hardly survive anywhere unaided thanks to modern civilization.

>>8431963
>>8431314 (You)
Eat shit nigger.

I know energy is one of those hot topic buttons that bring out the zealots, but I've never seen someone wholely and totally in love with shit. You got shit on the brain dude. Shit this will save us. Shit that you can't add. Shit shit shit.

>>8428141
This. Mars is our best bet - relatively close, higher gravity than the Moon, weak atmosphere but still better than nothing, contains water ice and is 30 celsius at its warmest. It really ain't bad compared to other Solar System bodies. Actually, it's the best bet. Titan is a faraway science-fiction, cold ass hydrocarbon moon.
The downsides of Mars include lack of significant magnetic field and the low atmospheric pressure.. but it's not like we're starting out aiming for breathable air.

>>8430832
There were no Murricans before the colonization of America. So, no pizza burning humans that require it for survival. Now that we do, one can see that Martian pizza guy is an extremely needed job, just like Martian McDonalds.

>>8429339
>tfw lots of resources put into making colonized Mars a reality
>just like United States, they rebel
>our first ever interplanetary war

>>8431068
But Mark Watney grew potatoes.

>>8428414
Do you have heat or a/c where you live?

Now you might not die without those depending on where you live, but they certainly make life a little easier?

So on Mars those will go from being a luxury to being a necessity.
What's the big deal?

Are we ready for Mars? Maybe not. But we're not going to be ready if we don't put the work in now.