Why do people say CS is a meme? I was just reading about how

And to add, before the people who say "hurr durr programming is just a subset of CS, real schools teach theory" take a look at the website more and notice how we learned tons of theory, not just programming.

>I'd say the only people who are smarter than CS are math majors.

The only thing that people dont call a meme on here is math. So, get over it.

>>8419591
>tfw 300k starting

what kind of colossal faggot do you have to be to post the same shit over and over again?

>>8419581
As a CS major, you're delusional if you think our coursework is anywhere near physics. Chem is technically harder as well, but only by time consumption and the amount of memorization required. Try taking an organic chemistry class.
CS is not a hard major, it's split into programming and theory, which is just low-level math. Doesn't make it a bad degree. If you weren't such a autist, you'd realize difficulty by itself has no inherent value. Life isn't an intelligence dick measuring contest.

>>8419581
>Oh shit! I'm coding an AI, it's like the fucking singularity
>I'm so hardcore!!!

Dude, nobody finds your data structures homework impressive.

>>>/g/tfo

>>8419581
Ayy OP, future Stats here

I could get more than you by just knowing R language, a masters and nice social skills
>Stats Ph.D
>150k starting
Only mathfags are superior to me tbqh

File: 1380279435360.gif (59KB, 240x180px) Image search: [Google]

59KB, 240x180px

>>8419581

>Muh search trees
>Muh trivial AI programs!
>Muh muh muh muh muh muh muh muh

>>8419648
Gotta get good with machine learning senpai.
Gotta handle the datas.

t. mathfag

>>8419581

>I'd say the only people who are smarter than CS are math majors. I have never met a chem, physics, or bio major that could do what CS can.

CS graduate here. You're fucking dumb, holy shit.

File: 1455310679806.png (287KB, 836x1065px) Image search: [Google]

287KB, 836x1065px

>>8419581

>>8419717
t. Physics major who is working at wendys

CS is a meme because it's passed on nongenetically, i.e. word of mouth to ass.

>>8419581
The only hard part about cs is learning the syntax of a language. This partially determines what logic structures can be used. I've done similarly difficult projects in a 4xxx physics class I took where we had a half semester crash course in c++. Some people failed miserably at coding, for me, it was straight foward, so idk.

I'll say that using the algorithms in that description is pretty shit.

In othello, I'd define there to be soft points and hard points.

Soft points are the number of chips in your color on your turn.
Hard points is the number of chips in your color that can't be converted back.

I'd make an ai that only looks 1 turn ahead at every point on the board and makes the most hard points possible per turn. If none are available, then have it make the move that gives the most soft points without the possibility of the player converting those to hard points on the next turn. I'd fail the assignment because your assignment isn't about ai or game theory, or even effecient coding, it's about learning trees (discrete math, graph theory) and why it's so shit to implement.

With that being said, there are published methods for storing trees using least amounts of data. Your ability to beat other ai will come down to how well you can store and access the trees. This is an interesting topic in graph theory and number theory, but again, has nothing to do with cs specifically.

>>8419581
I did physics for a while and met a few dudes who were serious talents. Like very smart people, and well adjusted. Doing math I've had plenty of time with CS as well and met some pretty smart people, tho never at the same level as those physics dudes.
Engineering are just total plebs tho

File: 8D.png (176KB, 301x333px) Image search: [Google]

176KB, 301x333px

>>8419814

Well, we do like eating out a lot.

CS Is so boring, how do you guys wake uo everyday, go to class and study for this shit. The most intersting thing is the AI and that's sound like a meme.

>>8419888
it helps to be a nerd obsessed with video games wondering how they made them

>>8419581
Programming properly isn't trivial and easy. People here generally program in academic languages and don't really know what they're talking about on that point. I'm talking about system, application and firmware programming, it isn't trivial to do such things properly, especially when some of them have millions of lines of code. However you shouldn't be learning how to be a Software Engineer in Computer Science and you're seemingly not. So why are you trying to brag about something that other majors can accomplish with their limited programming range? The challenge of programming isn't syntax, it's code efficiency and design.

>>8419888
Here are some things that are nice
>automata theory
>computability theory
>computational complexity theory
>quantum computing
>cryptography
>machine learning
>computer vision
>image processing
>pattern recognition
>data mining
>evolutionary computation
>natural language processing
>robotics
>systems architecture
>operating systems
>digital logic
>multiprocessing
>computational physics
>software engineering (it's very expansive in of itself)

>>8419581
>people say CS is a meme
bcoz they don't know meme

>>8419945
Most of that stuff existed long before modern computers.

Computer Science is a meme because it focuses on using modern computers specifically to address these topics.

Once a true ai is created, the only cs that will remain in history are those who developed it.

How does it feel that the ultimate goal of your field will destroy it?

>>8420060

>Once a true ai is created, the only cs that will remain in history are those who developed it.

But that's fucking wrong, you retard.

>>8419581
>lower div
What did he mean by this?

>>8419945
All of those are covered in electrical engineering in my university.

>>8419581
Math major here. I´ve never studied AI but I guess I can share how I would do this and you can rate me. My previous knowledge is general math and programming

First I'd do a dynamic tree data structure. Dynamic so I can grow it as much as I want.

Then after understanding the rules of the game I would write a function that takes as input the gamestate (I guess I'd have to write a data structure to hold a gamestate) and returns the tree generated by all the possible moves that could be done at this, using elementary game theory to map it and give each move a score.

Game Theory also would come in when it comes to finding a dominant strategy for the game generated by each gamestate and I bet there is a bunch of literature on this subject, given that Othello appears to be a popular game.

Write a function that finds the dominant strategy, using knowledge I'd get from the mentioned literature or I guess I could just study the game myself, given that I know game theory aswell, and then does the play.

If what I just described is not the preferred course of action, then this is probably a primitive but informed attempt that has been refined in your CS classes... without them teaching you actual game theory or graph theory.

>>8419581
If by "retards" you mean "anyone else from STEM", then yes, they could do your homework.
Proof: Every university CS department offers a masters program that allows any idiot with any degree background to learn CS in a year, and yet CS students waste years getting to an equivalent level.

>>8420464
Good comment.

File: maxresdefault.jpg (116KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

116KB, 1280x720px

I think the real CS meme is colleges pretending to offer CS when in reality it's just basic programing. These colleges are money farms. Real CS can be self taught, and any credible college that knows that is lowering the price to next to nothing. Georgia has a degree program for <$2,000

>Why do people say CS is a meme? I was just reading about how retards say programming is trivial and easy.
It is.

Easiest classes of my major.

"Computer Science" and "Programming" are two different things.

>>8419601
>life isn't an intelligence dick measuring contest
Words /sci/ needs to hear and live by

>>8420606
It is for you anon.
Programming requires logic and concentration, the ability to concentrate your ideas into a series of steps that, if executed in order, will return the desired output.
On the other hand, the algorithms taught at a regular CS class are almost self-evident.

It's a meme because math majors aren't worth shit without a degree in something else. Often math majors realize they have to get a CS minor or double major to be employable. Since they're forced to take CS courses, they inherently loathe them. The fact that they struggle with pointers and data structures further adds to their rage

>>8420792
>The fact that they struggle with pointers and data structures further adds to their rage
Do you feel better about yourself when you convince yourself of this?

>>8419581
CS is weird since it's meme that's also not a meme. The "wiz kid that makes a website in his garage and becomes a billionaire" is kind of a meme but also kind of not. If you've got skill, drive and product that people want you can make serious money. And even if you don't make millions of billions you can still make pretty sweet monthly salary while also going to school.

>>8420804
>CS is weird since it's meme that's also not a meme.
CS threads are like Schrödingers meme. You never know what is going on inside a CS thread. If its a good discussion its fun, but 99% of the time its a shit flinging contest and CS majors (maybe rightfully so) feel the need to defend their major. Thing is, they do this in absolutely ridiculous ways like "luk my majur hard cuz I use analysis for algorithm complexitay". This tickles my funny bone and makes me want to talk smack to them.

>>8420420
This is first lecture AI shit, and you will fuck up most likely as your search tree gets way too huge.

>>8420337

1xx-2xx or 1xxx-2xxx at some schools where the point of the class is to introduce fairly general and menial topics such as intro to programming, intro to calculus, and general chemistry.

>>8419581

>not using a deep NN

Kek machine learninglet

>>8420816
CS major here talk smack to me.
>they do this in absolutely ridiculous ways like "luk my majur hard cuz I use analysis for algorithm complexitay"
Wouldn't the actual scientific and mathematical aspects of CS like ML, AI, crypto, algs, complexity theory, PL theory etc be the things which makes it into an actual legit degree instead of meme-tier?
CS without the actual CS would just be a software eng. degree, which clearly is a meme because it just educates people into being mindless industry automatons (Correct me if I am wrong).

>>8421197
Those "automatons" have the same job have the same job as most CS majors.
You may study some basic graph theory, combinatorial, adñnd algorithm. But in the end, the recruiter will see you both as being the same.

>>8419581
>computer science
>>>/x/

>>8419581
Just Google "is a computer science degree with it"
Even Google knows it's a shitshow

>>8421197
CS majors make really shitty software engineers (I know because I've interviewed many of them). The best SEs are converts from other engineering fields (EE mostly, from what I've seen).

CS majors are pretty much overqualified trash when it comes to building software.

>>8419581
This is not that difficult

t. chemistry undergrad

>>8419581
Physicsfag here. You just don't know, y-you just don't know this hell. But I'm not going to argue with a stranger on a plutonian basket weaving forum

>>8419833
>hard part of cs is learning syntax
anon pls

>>8420060
>cs focuses on using modern computers
>cs isn't just a branch of mathematics

How does it feel to have a bachelors degree in pizza delivery?

Not very subtle for a troll post OP

>>8422838
He goes to UC Irvine, this is probably one of the only joys in his sad life. cut the guy some slack

W-wait, is comp sci really that bad? I had the choice between maths and comp sci for my UG degree and I just sent off my application for comp sci with maths, how fucked am I? It isn't really a meme is it???

>>8422873
With CS, the only thing you can do is CS.

With any other sci/eng/math degree you can do everything CS does plus pretty much anything else.

>>8420420
>Dynamic so I can grow it as much as I want.

We're going to need another timmy!

>>8420420
sounds reasonable. In Chess you have a similiar approach, but you can't map out every move, instead you map out some moves, rate them, and explore those that seem promising further. This leads you to developing the branches that seem promising quickly while saving out on the ones you don't, because ultimately you can only try out so many moves per second.

>>8421197
>CS major here talk smack to me.
Why would I you havent said anything stupid yet

>Wouldn't the actual scientific and mathematical aspects of CS like ML, AI, crypto, algs, complexity theory, PL theory etc be the things which makes it into an actual legit degree instead of meme-tier?
Yes, they do, but what I meant is that the examples they use to try and prove the major is not bullshit is completely elementary to anyone in physics, mathematics or other math heavy fields. It may impress their mom but not us. Probably means they are in shitty programs too cause actual CS is basically maths. Brings me to -

>CS without the actual CS would just be a software eng. degree, which clearly is a meme because it just educates people into being mindless industry automatons (Correct me if I am wrong).
- this. By a shitty program I mean a curriculum of programming, advanced programming, advanceder programming and advancedest programming. Youd be surprised how many software engineering (which shouldnt be a major in the first place) degrees try to guise themselves under the CS name.

Since there are CS people in the thread, I have a few questions. I want to do Berkeley's MS program in data science, but I'm a chem major. How do I fulfill the "advanced work in Python or Java" requirement? What qualifies?

>>8421055
>This is first lecture AI shit

And that is the problem. You would struggle because you were told "here is the search algorithm and here is how the tree looks like" and then were expected to blindly do it.

I know the theory behind everything. I know the rigorous and formal ways to generate and analyze a game tree, for any game.

>your search tree gets way too huge

This is true but do you think game theory is about bruteforcing games? Fuck no. There are these things called patterns that you could recognize... if you actually knew mathematics.

>>8422984
Yes, this would be the approach taken here. The most basic way (and the way I'd do this to just get it over with) would be to forget about the entire game and think about the game generated by each gamestate up to like 10 moves in the future.

One cannot forget that if you have a game, every part of that game is also a game. So I could partially analyze the game. Start with a gamestate and then just rate the tree generated by the 10 following moves and then consider the winning condition of this game to be getting the highest rating at the 10th move.

Then technically, if you win every part of a game, you should most of the time win the game.

>>8422879
Shit what should I do then? Is self teaching mathematics to a higher level valid? Is the joint honours at least less of a meme?

>>8423090
Dont base your choices on this board, just evaluate your uni's curriculum and make sure its not a shit program. If you want to learn math... well, its way fucking harder. CS and SE stuff is easier to learn on the side in comparison.

>>8422879

I've had professors go from CS to Math in grad school, so you're full of shit.

>>8423181

>If you want to learn math... well, its way fucking harder.

No, lol.

File: 94f.png (121KB, 680x497px) Image search: [Google]

121KB, 680x497px

>>8423214
>top uni
>taking cs classes when math gets too much
>suddenly oceans of free time

>>8419581
>muhh building a tree
I could build a tree in primary school.

If you aren't doing Physics/EE/CE (or proper mechatronics) at a good uni then you can fuck off. A good hardcore EE or Physics degree has the most course-load especially if you go all the way to an MSc at least.
CE with proper (heavy) EE focus is also interesting.

>I'd say the only people who are smarter than CS are math majors. I have never met a chem, physics, or bio major that could do what CS can. While CS can do all of their coursework and more.
Kek. You can type premade algoritms into your fucking computer. Literally people drop out of CE/EE the first sight of modeling of physical systems.
Both engineering and physics models physical systems albeit for a different purpose.
Please derive me the equations for a transistor in some form by starting out from the materials and their properties.

Can you even derive the model of a transmission line?

Don't get me wrong, lot of CS theory stuff is useful, extremely useful, but most CS fags don't really understand it that well, because they don't need it on a broad range like engineers or anyone else who actively uses it. Also most CS fags only care for SE shit.

ITT: people confuse computer science and programming

>>8423236
I, forgot to add: if you have a PhD and you do proper research or industry shit in CS then disregard my post. It is for the know-it-all retarded OP advertising the skills he doesn't have.

What I don't understand is why people are shilling CS so hard. Especially that one faggot on youtube "ENGINEERING TRUTH". He says the EE is getting overshadowed by CS. What he and other CS fags fail to understand is that many other majors can do what CS babbies can do, and CS jobs in general are getting outsourced or taken over by H1B rajeets.

>>8423250
CS is good at a competent level where you do applied algorithms stuff which is very relevant for EE. However honestly I would rather hire someone, an EE or CE guy, for such jobs who knows shit about hardware and related applied physics.

File: sage.jpg (4KB, 150x150px) Image search: [Google]

4KB, 150x150px

>>8419581
>Why do people say CS is a meme?
Why do you care?
>Could they even do a lower div programming assignment from my uni?
I might try this, but only as a desperate attempt to alleviate my persistent insomnia.

Today, every scientific discipline (including math) relies heavily on CS, but I would be bored to death if I had to study it on its own.

>>8423233

Huh, sounds like when I took nothing but math classes.

>>8423310
Oh well. What classes did you take? Not going to slam you cause they werent in IUTT, just wondering.

>>8423336

Linear Algebra and Numerical Analysis. I wish I took proofs in college, so instead I'm studying Proofs on my own, granted proof writing is very particular so I will have to, at some point, ask someone who has a Math degree whether some of my proofs are written well. I'm not trying to discredit math in any way, but I feel like people have the misconception that X field is impossibly difficult and it disheartens people from trying. As long as people apply and focus on what they're working on, they can come to understand it, sometimes slower or quicker than others.

>>8423336
>>8423396

And in that vein of thought I am being hypocritical when I say Math is easy, it has aspects of it that can be hard to grasp, just like any other science field. So I apologize for that.

>>8423396
>>8423399
>So I apologize for that.
I think thats really decent of you. I didnt mean bad by what I said either, Ive actually been posting in favor of CS recently cause it gets an unreasonable amount of shit on here. What I meant by
>If you want to learn math... well, its way fucking harder.
Is mostly based on my experience. I am in a pure mathematics program so our courses are all proofs, from the first day, and the amount of work I have to put in drains the life out of me.
>granted proof writing is very particular so I will have to, at some point, ask someone who has a Math degree whether some of my proofs are written well.
Just ask here, someone will know.

>>8423236
At good schools CS/SE has similar courseload to EE/CE

>>8419596
>any job i want

>>8423691
Not at all

>>CS
>1st year
Bullshit java/OO coding class
Bullshit data structures class
Piss easy calculus classes
Piss easy matrix algebra class
[If you're luck] physics I&II for non-science majors

>2nd year
Watered down "computer architecture" class
Pompous software engineering class
Pathetic discrete "math" class
Watered down "probability" class
Crash course on formal languages and automata

>3rd year
Pathetic algorithms course
Watered down computability and complexity theory course
Laughable networks course
Laughable database course
Crash course on various programing languages

>4th year
Laughable computer security course
[If you're lucky] an Operating Systems class
[If you're lucky] a Compilers class
Horseshit AI with trivial machine learning
5-10 student team Capstone with one dude doing all the work
and all the bullshit easy electives you want

>>CE/ECE/EE
>1st year
C++/C Coding class
C++/C Data Structures and Algorithm
Easy vector calculus
Piss easy matrix algebra class
Ordinary Differential Equations
Physics I&II
Chem I&II

>2nd year
PDEs, Complex Variables, or Advanced Engineering Mathematics [which is half of each]
Probability and Random Processes
Numerical Analysis
Signal and System Analysis
Circuits
Physics III
Digital Logic
An actual Computer Architecture class

>3rd year
Electronics I&II
Communication Systems
Digital Signal Processing
[if CE or ECE] Discrete Math with Coding and Information Theory
[if EE or ECE] Control Theory
[if EE] Electromagnetics
[if CE] Operation Systems
[if CE] Digital System Design
[if CE] Embedded Systems

>4th year
Capstone where everyone actually does shit
[if you're unlucky] Ethics
Electives [for CE]:
Compilers
Computer Vision
Computer Graphics
VLSI Design
Networks
Cryptography
Reverse Engineering
Information Theory
Convex Optimization
Distributed Computing
among others

>>8423676

I think that's probably what made the CS classes at my school pretty difficult. The professor I was taking classes from focused pretty heavily on proofs, everyone hated it, but I really appreciated that he focused heavily on being able to prove why what we're talking about works.

>>8423750
At my school SE take the almost all same courses as EE/CE for 1st/second year and the CS math is all proof-based starting in first term.

>>8423834
Do they do Kirchhoff's law and in general regular electronics(i. e. not digital logic)? It's nice to teach programmers how CPUs really work, assembly is good, i'd say digital logic is already borderline questionable though.

>>8419601
no one thinks CS is incredibly rigorous, we just want people to stop being so mean to us </3
>>8419648
you're right! but guess what you will be doing with that 150k starting?
>computer programming with R
>>8419861
some of us drink more than we eat hehe
>>8419888
because, one day, you will go home at night and have sex with a AI sex bot designed by a trap ML researcher
>>8419901
idk vidya is nice but I can't into physics simulations
>>8422729
I can agree. When choosing which programming language to use and which platform to develop on I conduct a thorough literature review, syntax analysis, and market trends before writing a hello world.
>>8422879
damn, I cannot understand where you are getting this conclusion. what about a degree in mechanical engineering or biology?

>>8422879
The only field that doesn't study CS that could do CS as well as CS is probably math. Maybe EE but I've seen kind of programming classes they take.

Otherwise explain to me how, for example, a chemist or biologist would know just about anything about CS or programming?

>>8423851
>we just want people to stop being so mean to us

4chan is the last place you should look for a safe space. Fuck off.

>>8423870
>Otherwise explain to me how, for example, a chemist or biologist would know just about anything about CS or programming?

He'll pick up a magical device call a book and engage in the ancient witchcraft known as reading.

>>8423849
>>8423849
>>8423849
I'm in SE and we learned KCL/KVL in the first month of first term lol. I agree that CS is subpar compared to EE/CE at a lot of schools, but at high-ranking schools I'd say it's comparable.

>>8423877
>He'll pick up a magical device call a book and engage in the ancient witchcraft known as reading.
So not at all related to his degree or any skill gained from his degree?

You're essentially saying sociologists can do CS just as well as CS guys because they can pick up a book and learn how to code. Well, yeah, but what the fuck does that have to do with their degree?

>>8423885
>You're essentially saying sociologists can do CS just as well as CS guys because they can pick up a book and learn how to code. Well, yeah, but what the fuck does that have to do with their degree?

Degrees aren't job training dude. STEM majors are good problem solver with good analytical skills and those soft skills easily transfer over to other fields. That why finance and banking firms love to hire STEM majors, it's easy for them to pick up the domain material and they will often out perform finance majors who bs'ed their way through their courses not learning much.

>>8423877

>He'll pick up a magical device call a book and engage in the ancient witchcraft known as reading.

Probably one of the best responses I've read in ages.

>>8423901
So all STEM majors are good at solving problems and can jump from field to another more easily? Therefore it would be as easy for CSfag to become biofag as it would be in reverse?

So >>8422879 is still blatantly wrong?

>>8423750
I'm still confused why my university made me go through a statics and mechanics module in my first year as a CE. I have the skills to build a bridge of questionable integrity now. Everything else it quite similar to what you said for the CE modules, but they were often shared with CS students. The classes were either EE&CE or CE&CS.

>>8423885

You're going to learn real quick how little importance your degree is and the material you learned at school, as opposed to the process of learning and picking up skills reasonably quick.

File: 1379893312001.png (309KB, 469x506px) Image search: [Google]

309KB, 469x506px

>>8423851

>some of us drink more than we eat hehe

Oh, I know what you mean.

>>8423885
I graduated with a masters in CE, but then I started up a company with a few friends. As a result I've never worked as a CE, I've always done business despite knowing close to fuck all about it when I graduated. Life changes, you've got to be adaptable.

File: file_589672_transcendence-poster-2[1].jpg (170KB, 610x904px) Image search: [Google]

170KB, 610x904px

Since this is an AI thread, what did you guys think about pic related?

>>8423937
Never heard of it.

Looked it up.

It looks shit, it got shit reviews and the story synopsis is bad,

>>8423943
don't fall for the shitty review meme

It's an interesting concept, that was poorly executed, but still, it's a very original movie

>>8423915
>tfw the classical physics course for CEs is harder than the classical physics course for MEs at your school
Please explain this.

>>8423943
It's an interpretation of the MUH SINGULARITY

really cool tho

>>8423955

MEs take Engineering Dynamics that usually doesn't cover Lagrangian Mechanics and more focused on applications.
I'm guessing CEs take Physics Mechanics which does Lagrangian Mechanics since it's very useful for robotic.

>>8423849
I'm not him, but the basic outline in Europe is this for CE/EE:
>Do they do Kirchhoff's law
That's basic shit in Physics I or II depending on the school. So probably if they take Phy I/II then they also learned it.

Analog electronics and circuit theory classes deal with it in a more in-depth manner. For example writing up the ODEs, etc.

Signals and Systems class deals with generic modeling of physical phenomena aka systems utilizing signals and their types.

Class(es) called Electromagnetism and/or Electromagnetic Fields deal with properly deriving circuit models from physical phenomena and determining the properties of inductors/capacitors made from different materials and with different geometry. Another usual example is the transmission line.

>>8423955
EE/CE needs heavier training in electromagnetism.
Or maybe >>8423982
However we learned about analytical mechanics during our robotics course.

>>8423909
/sci/ doesn't consider cs nor bio to be STEM. Also, bio is fucking flooded with premed students who couldn't get into med school.

>>8423909

A degree is just a degree. It gives specialized knowledge within a field. The broadness of specialization depends, however in 3-4 years + 2 with masters don't expect that there is a degree which teaches you everything.

If you're an actually good autodidact then with a somewhat broad degree you can quite easily get into multidisciplinary areas related to your field/degree.

If we strictly talk about your knowledge then depending on what you want to do you need to learn a lot by yourself. If what you want to do is totally unrelated to your formal qualifications then you need to have good references and/or make something on your own which will in turn allow you to move into whatever field you desire. (Connections can help too.) Transitioning slowly away and into your desired area of expertise is also an option.

If you don't have good talents and good autodidactic skills aka you're blatantly average then most likely you won't be able to teach yourself lot of for example EE heavy stuff as a CS guy. You might not even be interested. However if you got into CS because you have widely applicable problem solving skills and you aren't afraid to learn different shit then you can for example get into numerical methods with engineering applications, mechanical, electrical simulations and experiment on your own. After that you can start moving first into CS related positions like developing in-house simulation software or making software which can design filter circuits, etc. then move into different kind of engineering positions.

That's one way to go at it, but it depends on a lot of shit.
Personal drive (and abilities) and opportunities you can cling onto matter a lot.

Honestly, if you know your shit and you can do a wide variety of shit because you can learn it easily and you can apply interdisciplinary stuff easily then you can most likely do whatever the fuck you want. If you can't do that then you won't do whatever the fuck you want. Simple.