Does conclusive proof yet exist of free will? How do we know

>>8254162

What would be the point of said mental activity to reach such a conclution? I find it dumb to think that such a construct would reach self-awareness.

File: captcha-billboard.png (277KB, 400x600px) Image search: [Google]

277KB, 400x600px

"Someone once asked me,
Why do you believe in free will?
I replied,
Because I cannot choose to do otherwise."
– James Champagne

>>8254194

Got the exact same fucking problem.

>>8254162
How much do you think that we know about what exactly 'thoughts' are?..

free will threads are pretty dumb

File: 1467761677974.jpg (171KB, 800x600px) Image search: [Google]

171KB, 800x600px

>>8254162

>>8254162
No, but pretty much everything we know about the subject suggests it isnt real

>>8254162
What Sam ignores here is "facticity"

Even though our range of choices may be limited due to our genetics and history we still have choices to make

>>8254491
>we still have choices to make
His point is that we literally dont. The "decision" is a completely mechanical process, it was never possible to have chosen otherwise

>>8254503
He says that by looking at any situation through hindsight. Sam seems to not distinguish between limited choice and no choice

>>8254162
Fuck off this is not a /sci/ subject.

File: 01_dominos[1].jpg (209KB, 1500x698px) Image search: [Google]

209KB, 1500x698px

>>8254162
Your brain is made entirely of physical matter, therefore it is governed by the pre-deterministic rules of causality. There isn't much to discuss after you acknowledge this fact.

The political implications of free will not existing are infinite

How can we jail people if they had no choice?

>>8254534
This doesn't disregard free will seeing as my thoughts are not physical matter

>>8254537
because we have no choice but to jail them

File: 1454717519458.gif (248KB, 250x184px) Image search: [Google]

248KB, 250x184px

>>8254541

>>8254539
Your thoughts are determined by your physical brain, nothing more. So there is no agent of free will thats inside your brain that is free from the shackles of determinism.

>>8254547
Isn't it just semantical pedantery?

My brain by its inherent complexity is a black box, that returns a mysterios input, that may be deterministic, may be probabilistic, or may be magic or a combination thereof

Thus free will exists

>>8254547
there are many factors that I do not determine which give me a range of choices to make. My physical brain is the medium through which my thoughts are processed but there is a free will of choices. This is why we can't read thoughts from studying the brain. We can notice chemical reactions but the thoughts transcend our physical matter

>>8254548
>is a black box
>a mysterios input
>magic or a combination
>Isn't it just semantical pedantery

ironic... Let me know what other non-physical magical matter you happen to find in your brain. Then we can talk if there is free will or not.

>>8254555
>Your thoughts

Top kek

>>8254555
>subconscious
>id
>ego

>>8254557
>>8254560
Not an argument. Your thoughts / behaviour / decisions are the result of dense neural activity in your brain, which is a running electrical circuit happening entirely on a physical medium.

So let me know what other non-physical magical matter you happen to find in your brain. Then we can talk if there is free will or not.

>>8254569
Not an argument. Your thoughts are not physical matter even though they are the product of physical matter

>>8254569
>Happening on a physical medium

Free will can happen on a physical medium

>>8254569
quantum physics aren't deterministic

In our fashioned "present" of the mind - which is really actually multiple slices of time experienced as one meaningful now - we have freedom of choice.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/01/160104130826.htm

In the exact NOW, there's not actually any you to make a decision.

>>8254574
>not an argument
explain

Free will denialists refuse to define free will

According to them, free will is by definition magic

and since the universe is not magic, then free will doesn't exist

>>8254580
We can't know that yet, quantum mechanical objects just behave in a non-intuitive way, but we're quickly figuring stuff out.

Thing is because there are ions that travel the synaptic paths - and they have the choice of changing direction, multiple quantum states are generate by that process - so your brain technically exists in a state of superposition with many worlds - but you don't feel like it does.

Clearly that would mean something like - there's much more input in the brain except just the one from this world, but it's processed in a way you don't experience like that.

>>8254582
Was just trolling because you said not an argument when an argument was presented.

The argument was thoughts are not physical matter which happens with your brain.

>>8254584
I think they see by free will - the capacity of their consciousness to go against genes, environment triumph over material factors - yea just like magic. And since that doesn't happen their free will obviously doesn't exist.

>>8254586
Then explain what a thought is in a fashion that is not dependant on your physically predetermined brain.

>>8254590
>go against

Free will is the ability to make choices not go against physical matter

>>8254584
paranormal concepts that exist outside the physical realm are magic and belong to >>>/x/

>>8254595
No one would've believed that tho, it would've been implied that it was magic and that's what some people believe when they talk about free will.

Is the point flying above your head?

>>8254595
A 5 dollar robot dog is able to make choices. By your definition they have free will.

>>8254592
You haven't proven my brain is pre determined. My thoughts do not go against the fashion of my brain I would never claim that. You have the capacity to direct the focus of your brain based on the choice of your will. This choice will be limited due to deterministic factors but is not completed determinism. There is a range of choices given to any situation

>>8254598
It's within the realm of my physical brain which is why if I was brain dead I could not think. It is still transcendental because it is the non physical existing within and affecting the physical

>>8254603
>You haven't proven my brain is pre determined
Then you haven't learned about causality in physics. For this discussion to continue you need to get an elementary level of physics education.

>>8254602
Their choices are not free they are pre programmed. We deal with a lot of pre programming as humans but still have a free will to alter that programming drastically

>>8254608
Why not just explain and make your point instead of acting like an intellectual to good to discuss your ideas? I guess you never had a choice and will always be intellectually petty

>>8254608
An effect occurs from a cause. This doesn't mean only one effect occurs regardless of will

>42 replies
For fucking fuck's sake, just ignore it.

>>8254609
Your re-programming entirely depends on the environmental factors that you have no control of, therefore they are pre-determined just like those environmental factors. There are machine learning AI as well but don't have free will either.

>>8254612
Because you don't know elementary level of well established knowledge about physics.

>>8254624
>entirely

Not entirely

>>8254618
Any effect occurring is pre-determined and can be accounted for by newtons law of motion. There is no room for an unproven free will in this equation.

>>8254624
Looked it up now I know causality.

It's the law of cause and effect, correct?

So just because there is a cause and effect relationship doesn't mean that there aren't multiple effects that a human can choose from any cause

>>8254625
I'd like to see the evidence for that claim.

>>8254628
>that a human can choose from
You mean the organism thats made entirely of physical matter right ?

>>8254627
Determinism hasn't been proven either and newtons law of motion while applying to thoughts isn't a completely deterministic factor

>>8254633
Yes the one that thinks in an abstract way

>>8254630
The varying range of human decisions given similar controls throughout history

>>8254634
>newtons law of motion hasn't been proven
You need to get an elementary level of physics education for this discussion to continue. You are completely trying to ignore well established facts that scientists have been using for centuries.

>>8254635
Abstract way is not a scientific term

>>8254637
And the evidence for it ?

>>8254640
Not arguing against newtons law of motion I'm arguing against your application of it to human decision making

>>8254640
So what's the scientific term for the difference in thought process between humans and animals?

>>8254642
Human decision making happens on the brain by electrical transference on a completely physical medium which all abide the pre-deterministic rule of all physical matter abides.

>>8254640
>your not applying science the same way I do in this philosophical debate

>>8254649
>physical medium

I agree with everything you say here and argue that free will acts with those deterministic factors

>>8254644
What is the difference in thought process between humans and animals?

>>8254650
Not an argument.

>>8254652
How is it "free" will if it acts on deterministic factors ?

>>8254627
>what is quantum physics
Newton laws of motion are false

>>8254649
conductivity is effected by quantum probabilities

>>8254655
>>8254655
It's predetermined that I sleep now. We're arguing in circles anyway. You have given me much to think about and I appreciate the discourse even if you did resort to insults at points

T. A Born Again Calvinist

>>8254663
Evidence ?

>>8254666
Evidence ?

>>8254667
sweet pre-deterministic dreams

>>8254674
Classical mechanics are a meme

Read some Dirac or Feynman, pleb

>>8254681
not evidence nor argument

>>8254674
Vaccines cause autism

>>8254684
Dirac and Feynman's book are full of experiments that violate classical mechanics

For fuck's sake i cannot believe this sh*t got posted at /sci
We don't need your outdated crappy memes
Get back to /lit you determinist faggots

>>8254726
>outdated
>>>/x/ with your spiritualism buttmad religitard

>>8254731
>Bait
5/10. Lacks conviction.

>>8254735
>muh magical indeterministic souls
Your friends want you back >>>/x/

>>8254162
the way your brain thinks is because the nature(genetics) of it was nurtured(all stimuli introduced to our brain) to. our brain is a machine that allows us to employ "free will" but the bleak reality is a complex domino effect put in place since the dawn of time is the only reason i am typing this now.

>>8254537
Because they are still dangerous. There is no need to jail them for accidents though just for revenge.

>>8254539
Yes they are. The software in a computer is completely discribed by the physical parts of the computer.

>>8254548
How is that.. what? You basicly made an argument for no free will there, because you've shown how you yourself can't see into your head and where your choices come from, but then said that proves free will somehow.

>>8254554
We just can't see them precise enough yet. If we could see all the parts, we could discern the thoughts. But we can see enough to determine whether you'll chose "left" or "right" up to 7 seconds before you realise that you made a choice. This is again the case of evidence against the idea, but people making ad hoc arguments to keep their foregone conclusion intact. With our limited technology, we already see some thoughts.

>>8254579
Physical means here fully covered by the laws of nature. Those are deterministic, or sometimes (pseudo)random or chaotic, but never outside a causal chain. Physical matter can not have behaved otherwise just on a "whim".

>>8254590
There is no definition of free will that doesn't lead to a paradox, its a broken concept. Believing it works is like believing in square circles. like this: >>8254652