Veganism and the Environment

When the climate crash happens coupled with the stratification of the classes means that most people wont be able to eat meat even if they want to in the future.

>>8215565
Explain.

>>8215568
Raising livestock takes a very large resource investment, in the form of water and grain, time and work, etc. If you're poor and isolated, it would serve you more to use those resources on yourself.

Only the rich and powerful would have the disposable resources to enjoy meat

>>8215568
Lots of farmland will be made useless as climate change continues, raising the prices of resource intensive foods like beef. People will continue to get poorer and thus have less ability to purchase those expensive foods. A steak will be a true luxury. I don't buy into the vegan hype but I do believe our grandchildren will be eating less meat.

>>8215552
excess protein for health is a meme anyways

>>8215570
Ah yes, and vegetables grow without any effort

>>8215589
They'd yield significantly more with significantly less effort.
Less than 100% of all things fed into a cow are converted into more edible cow.
I'm not looking up any figures but the yield is probably going to be 10% or less.

>>8215589
Nigga, plants do most of their own growing. You put them in the ground throw some fertalizer on it once to twice per crop cycle and water them occasionally, all of which can be completely automated.
Per calorie of food vegetables consume incredible amounts less than live stock. That's not to say I'd rather eat a pound of chick peas every day for the rest of my life so I don't become belemic, but still.

>100 calories of broccoli
So I would have to eat 300 grams of broccoli to get 11.1 g of protein?
By comparison, I would only have to eat 5 g of beef to get that same amount of protein.

I'd like to know if there has been any counter research

>>8215552

>"Cowspiracy"

Legit

>"Forks Over Knives"

Bullshit

>"From Farm to Fridge"

Legit

>The China Study

Not a study, but a book.

Bullshit.

The meat industry is ethically detestable and the number one contributor to greenhouse gas emissions; however, humans evolved to consume a varied diet which includes meat.

The veganism for ideal health and meat causes every disease known to man sentiment is a giant pseudoscientific meme.

Vegetables are healthy as fuck for more reasons than one, though; therefore try to fit them in whenever you can, e.g. in a curry or stew.

>>8215552
To effectively live on a vegan diet, one would need to consume 10x as much food as an omnivore. If we were all vegan, there'd only be a couple million of us, and those animal friends of ours would be direct competitors.

>>8215614
tfw tried to calculate the amount of broccoli
and i couldnt solve it i should kill myself

>>8215552
so we need a fucking plate full of broccoli
as opposed to just 5g of it?

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>>8215650
>If we were all vegan, there'd only be a couple million of us,
Because even hippie chicks don't want to fuck a vegan?

>>8215614
>11.1g of protein
>5g of beef
sign me up for this bulk beef, my body is ready

>>8215552


Measuring proteins only by mass is incredibly retarded. You also have to take into account that the human body is using some amino-acids it can not produce. Now guess where you find exactly those acids, while they are severely lacking elsewhere?

Apparently, vegetarians are smarter:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201005/why-vegetarians-are-more-intelligent-meat-eaters

>>8215867
Interesting link anon. Weird how the Americans and the English differ. The sentence 'Vegetarianism would therefore be an evolutionarily novel value and lifestyle, as well as a luxury of abundance.' didn't make a ton of sense, so I looked it up.

http://phys.org/news/2010-02-intelligent-people-unnatural-values-human.html

From the article: "More intelligent people are significantly more likely to exhibit social values and religious and political preferences that are novel to the human species in evolutionary history."

This shit is fascinating. At least now I can claim my autistic quirks mean I'm highly intelligent.

>>8215992
It's complicated.

On one hand, I know very few low class vegans aside from some hippies, crust punks and Antifa-types (the latter two of which are almost always mutually inclusive) since the vast majority of them came from comfortable middle class liberal homes. While intelligent rednecks exist, they're few and far between, and the intelligence they possess can be chalked up to practical wisdom and street smarts; not to say that I don't prefer the company of a good humored hick to a pedantic leftist.

On the other hand, developing habits which are novel to the species isn't necessarily an indicator of higher intelligence (see: appeal to novelty fallacy). By reducing all of humanity down to the IQ, /pol/acks and tumblrinas neglect that action is necessary for intelligence to amount to anything. Anyone can passively boast about their supposed higher intellect, but few can prove it means jackshit.

>>8215552
All documentaries are ideological garbage, designed to manipulate low-quality people.

>>8215867
>>8215992
apparently doing something that our ancestors didn't as much makes you smarter?

by that logic, the most intelligent people are the ones who have an AIDS fetish.

I'd never let people take my meat away

BUT, there is a case for stopping animal factory farming once producing meat in lab is perfected and cheap.

Would /sci/ be okay with this? Would you all be okay with outlawing factory farming if we can produce the same quality steaks for the same price in a laboratory? Do you think the general population would be okay with it or they'd freak out (as they already did when the news of the "Frankenstein-burger" came out)?

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>>8215552
The problem is not the meat, automotive or whatever industry it is our population size (most of which is worthless, see: http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/05/09/310114739/whats-your-major-four-decades-of-college-degrees-in-1-graph). I'm not going to give up eating something I enjoy because you assholes can't control your sex drives.

>>8215614
Nigga, broccoli is so porous. You can blend a bowl of broccoli down the the size of a serving of steak
>>8215552
Why do people say vegan food taste shit? Are they implying the entire produce isle is shit? That rice, grains, and legumes is shit? That Juice, soda and the billions of recipes that dont use meat is shit?

Or are they referring to the small selection of shitty frozen packaged "meat alternatives"?

meat alternatives are shit
not the vegan diet

>>8216109
Lol the logic goes the other way. It's more along the lines of intelligent people are more likely to experiment as well as accept the crazy. Doing said crazy thing does not make one smart. This is sometimes good for the species and sometimes bad. Just look up any of those studies about highly intelligent people being more susceptible to not only trying drugs, but being more susceptible to addiction as well. That certainly doesn't mean that drug users are smarter than non-drug users.

>>8216104
t. Plato

>>8216109
I addressed this here.
>>8216085

Progressives are terminally afflicted with chronological snobbery, except for film and the arts. Only in that context is everything old better than everything new (see how they all have apoplectic shitfits about Michael Bay).

>>8216144
>trys vegan diet
>guess I cant have chicken
>buys fake chicken
>upset because it doesn't taste like real chicken
WHO WOULD OF THUNK

buy some fuckin vegetables you ignorant americans

>>8216191
tfw American and i run into those kinds of people all the time.

meat contains better proteins than plants.

which is why Vegetarians have to eat a varied selection of plant proteins.

>>8216222
I might be mistaken, but isn't a variety of foods better for you anyway?

Hence our urges to be in mood for different foods all the time? Biologically to make sure we get all our nutrients?

I think I'm paraphrasing a scishow video or something.

>>8216150
just look up studies comparing proteins in meat vs proteins in plants.

intelligent people do more drugs and drink more to get different mind altering states and because having a highly active mind makes it harder to wind off and relax and not think about things so much.
vegetarianism provides none of that. starvation does though.

>>8216140
oh wow impact/consumtion *consumtion/person*persons = impact
what a revolutionary model

>>8215613
Why do you pretend to know what you're talking about. Seriously. Why.

>>8215552
Meat tastes good.

If it destroys the environment, that merely means it replaces other predator-prey relationships through habitat destruction.

Why one form of predation is supposed to be better than another is completely baffling to me.

But if I have to choice to eat meat or not eat meat, of course I eat it.

>>8215552
"per 100 CALORIES" You'd probably have to eat a literal ton of broccoli to get 100 calories.

>>8215552
>Are we to grovel
What do you mean by "we", Peasant?

>>8216555
>If it destroys the environment,
>that merely means it replaces
>other predator-prey relationships
No, that is not what it "merely means".
Lrn2environment fgt pls

>>8216191
>WHO WOULD OF THUNK
A: nobody with any concept of grammar.

>>8216590
>eat a literal ton of broccoli to get 100 calories
it's more like a literal 329g of broccoli
to get 100 calories, fgt pls
http://www.fda.gov/Food/IngredientsPackagingLabeling/LabelingNutrition/ucm114222.htm

>>8215856
are we all just gonna ignore this?

ok

>>8216123
Personally,I would agree,but society always gets teriffied when they hear that something is man-made or new.

This was the case throughout all of history.

It happened when cell-phones came out,when books started being mass produced,when those pesky carriages without horses came out,and so on.

History is full of such examples,and the terror eill stop only when older people are no longer here

>>8215614
85 grams of beef has 22 grams of protein and

85 grams of broccoli has 2.4 grams of protein.

Protip: You can check this shit on google.

>>8215552
Alright anon, ex-vegan faggot here.
No, I wasn't some SJW or Tumblrina vegan. I just bought in to the propaganda and tried it out for a few months.

Right off of the bat; YES, it does help with curing ailments and such. HOWEVER, the fix is really only temporary before either other shit starts happening or the same shit starts up again after a long period of time. That does exclude blood related problems though, those are pretty much permanently fixed if you go permanently vegan.
Really, the whole "Forks Over Knives" cure all veganism should be viewed as more like a temporary treatment, like a prescription that is only taken over such a period of time. It's a hard as hell life style to keep up with unless you're like me and just naturally don't have a whole lot of access to meat to begin with. However in terms of clean up, it does work, it just isn't great as a lifestyle.

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>>8215552
>The China Study

Stop reading there

>>8215552
that pic is highly missleading.

Neu5gc.

>>8215552
>Are the vegans right?

About lots of things. They still don't have a good source of vitamin B though

>Are we to grovel before vegans' infinite wisdom and moral authority?

AHAHAhahaha no

>>8215650
>To effectively live on a vegan diet, one would need to consume 10x as much food as an omnivore. If we were all vegan, there'd only be a couple million of us, and those animal friends of ours would be direct competitors.

To get 1000 calories from meat, you must grow 10000 calories of vegetables to feed your meatstock.

You have to count the entire cycle, otherwise you're missing important parts of the puzzle.

>>8217562
>AHAHAhahaha no
AHAHAhahaha yes
Down on your knees, peasant. This is your salvation.

>>8215650
>10x as much food as an omnivore

Not... so much, maybe 2x or 3x, the problem with vegan diets is that they have to be varied to reach for all the nutrients and they have to watch closer what they eat so they don't end up lacking something.

>>8217200
t. newfag.

>>8215552
>proposing veganism as
>panacea for all that ails us
You're greatly overstating your case,
and misrepresenting your opponents,
Mister Hyperbole.

>>8217572
t. knee-jerk defender of the ignorant

>>8217597
t. t.

>>8217564
Quality of plant matter considered acceptable for human consumption is much higher than for animals, though.

I don't think the solution would have to be extreme downsizing and veganism. If meat production was cut down to whatever was the most optimal (poultry) and it didn't go into making nuggets and novelty hamburgers for already obese people we'd likely be able to enjoy meat and other animal-based products like eggs.

And there's also the population issue. Scale down population, food production scales down as well. It's a futile effort to try to plan the most stripped down mode of living when there's going to be another three billion people or whatever. It doesn't have to be one or the other, there needs to be a depopulation effort (family planning, not mass killings) that takes place simultaneously with cutting down on consumerist excess and wasteful production methods.

>>8217658
>That's a good thing
You're eating something that's lived the majority of its life practically half dead. Growth hormone isn't just to increase yield, it's to ensure you have to spend less on antibiotics and that your thing survives long enough to yield viable meat.

>>8215570
Youre completely ignoring the huge areas of the world covered in grasslands that are suitable for grazing, but not growing field crops.

>>8217707
vegans will always ignore the needs of people that arent first world country city-dwelling hipsters

>>8217721
Most of them are speaking strictly within their own immediate context. Yet again, in typical meat eater fashion, you're misrepresenting the supposed "average" opponent, and the scope of their statements, to ignore the core substance of the matter.

I just got done eating some turkey, and you really are absolute flimsy gutter trash. Get it together please, for everyone's sake.

>>8217697
What? What I meant that you can't just feed humans with the 1/10th of what is currently being fed to animals and call it a day because calories add up. Basically this >>8217707
+ the fact that leftovers from human food production are used as fodder too.

>>8217731
Fucking decimated

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>>8217721
I think this is the worst meat eater meme

>>8217731
>resorts to namecalling
typical vegan "argumentation"

>>8217832
>missing the point that much

no shit, rich countries consume more meat

>>8217851
>resorts

>>8217731
>strictly within their own immediate context
thats pretty much what I said.

>ignore the core substance of the matter
And what is that? Most vegans mainly appeal to emotions and want to be morally superior

>>8217860
>resort
>[ri-zawrt]
>to have recourse for use, help, or accomplishing something, often as a final available option or resource:
>to go, especially frequently or customarily:

>>8215552
I dont like the implications of everybody going vegan.

>>8217874
Indeed, hence no resorting is occurring.

Proper argument will beget proper argument. Spending life as the consistent bigger person is a maddening waste of energy.

>>8217865
>thats pretty much what I said.
You more or less implied that vegans are all first world city dwelling hipsters, which has multiple layers of nonsense embedded into it.

>Most vegans mainly appeal to emotions and want to be morally superior
Refer to my initial post. You are polluting your mind, and the overall dialogue, with irrelevant trivialities that may or may not be true in a given instance, and have no meaningful relation with anything in the topic.

Shift your mindset towards a legitimate exchange about the nature of animal use by modern humans, what ancillary aspects and broader effects are involved, and the ideal state of the world as a whole. Running your mouth about "they think" "they do" "I think they think" "memememeheememe" is the equivalent of he says she says bullshit. If it has no functional impact, it is irrelevant and will be stripped. Do these things, and you'll probably get a real conversation out of someone and everyone will walk away feeling net better than they would otherwise.

My time is up here. Soon I will run out of food, then I will begin to starve to death. Then they will come take my most everything and anything, unless I go find a way to magically make money very quickly.

Fuck all of you, b-t-dubs.

>>8217946
>hence no resorting is occurring
>and you really are absolute flimsy gutter trash
>Get it together please, for everyone's sake
seemed like butthurt namecalling to me.

>>8217564
You dont feed cows vegetables you fucking idiot. You feed them grass, which isnt edible by humans anyway.

If you had said grain, you might have had a point.

>>8217954
Sometimes too heavy and rapid a truth is difficult to take.
Don't worry, your capacity for reason will return. You will normalize this burden soon, and you will have the means to accept and move on.

>>8217960
Take your autism medication.

>>8217946
>You more or less implied that vegans
I didnt. But I see how my statement was a little misleading. I was refering to people and behavior I actually experienced (i live in a first world country). So, sorry for the overgeneralisation. Not even all vegans here act in that morally superior way.

>>8217960
>more patronising nonsense
>questions other peoples capacity to reason
Oh the irony. Better share some of your "truth" instead of butthurt namecalling. It will be a much more productive thread

>>8215552
Cowspiracy is a result of Commiefornians thinking water is a limited resource and that their "drought" has nothing to do with them not using desalination.

>>8217200
>sense of grammar
>"who would of thunk"
It was mockery. A joke. I'm surprised you haven't heard it before?

Sorry though, I forgot to cater my sarcasm to the autistic posters of /sci/

>>8217996
>desalination
When you must use terrifying amounts of energy to convert seawater into freshwater using a process that kills coastal marine life just to sustain local settlement and economy, it is safe to say freshwater IS a limited resource

>>8218026
>Sorry though, I forgot to cater my sarcasm to the autistic posters of /sci/
It's all your fault.

>>8218026
cont.
That was a joke too by the way. You know, because autistic people have trouble understanding sarcasm.

Just giving a faggot a hand.

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>>8218037
>Just giving a faggot a hand.

>>8218037
>>8218045
"If you give a faggot a hand, he takes the whole underarm"

>>8218030
>What is rain.
>How do I water cycle

>>8215604
That's about right. As you change tropic levels you only get about 10% of the energy actually converted to biomass.

>>8217996
You have no fucking idea what you're talking about. 80% of water use in CA is for agriculture. Desal could never supply that kind of volume.

>>8215867
I've seen a lot of dumbshit vegans and vegetarians hold that up as a sign of superiority.

>>8217956
>You feed them grass
Bullshit.
Majority of grown plants (corn most commonly) is used as animal feed.

>>8218215
Confirmed retarded

>>8218247
Corn and soybean. Not coincidentally among the most heavily subsidized crops, mostly GMO, and therefore connected to Monsanto.

No one could cut corn and soy subsidies even if they wanted to. The ethanol producing states would bitch too much.

>>8215867
>smarter than the general population

How about when compared to a healthy omnivorous control?

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>>8217996
Yes, California has a terrible drought. That's why their top 2 agricultural products are pot and wine.

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>>8217599
t. Pain

>>8215867
>https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201005/why-vegetarians-are-more-intelligent-meat-eaters
> The Hypothesis would predict that more intelligent individuals are more likely to choose to become a vegetarian than less intelligent individuals.
So no, apparently "smarter people are more likely to be vegetarians". It's not the same.

>>8218348
makes sense, most people bashing vegan/vegetarians resort to
>muh tastes
>muh canines
>i didnt climb to the top of the food chain to eat grass
>hur dur how do you know a person is a vegan KEK THEYLL TELL YOU

Not that I care, people can eat what they want. Vegan/vegetarian is ethically (and in some cases nutritionally) superior though.

>>8218380
Neu5gc.

>>8216191
Really? You had to drag regional geopolitics into this?
Go back to >>>/pol/.

Yes, we are the fattest country. We also have the largest non-poverty stricken population (either a population is large but poverty stricken or small and not poverty stricken). It makes complete sense that we'd have the most fat people, because we have the money and food to be fat, and have the most people to do it.
Nonetheless, this country still needs a change. It's absolute shit. Just don't think that everyone has to be a certain way in a set range of latitudinal and longitudinal coordinates.

Neu5gc.

>>8218384
Neu5gc.

(And no. "We're" fat because of the content of our food supply, chronic sleep deprivation, and chronic stress. Probably some prenatal and early childhood factors as well.)

>>8218384
>How dare you make fun of america!?
>Nonetheless, this country still needs a change. It's absolute shit
kill yourself

>>8218391
Neu5gc.

>>8218296
Neu5gc.

Have fun being retarded.

>>8215552
Neu5gc.

>>8218385
>>8218390
>>8218393
>>8218395
>>8218398
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/nonhuman-molecules-lining-our-arteries/
You're talking about this, right? So it's bad for humans?

>>8215614
Neu5gc.

>>8218384
I was only mocking. I understand it's just a stereotype.
I am American, born here, but my grandparents are dutch. Vegetarian values have been passed on, and I rarely ate meat growing up. So I don't share the same emotional attachment to meat. I cannot relate to >muh bacon. Food is fucking food.

>>8218401
Yep. It's a signalling molecule we lost the ability to synthesize (the enzyme to turn neu5ac to neu5gc is irreversibly mutated in humans and certain new world primates, which likely developed it independently), and we have a potent immune response to it. This is possibly actually caused by a complex chain of reactions stemming from bacteria in our gut's response to it, and then a later product inducing IgE sensitization.

There's a lot to be said, but one thing is clear, consumption of other mammals has inherent negative aspects for humans. Historically we never ate meat like we do now, and it was better quality. The notion we were ever some grand apex predator feasting on the flesh of anything we want whenever we wanted is complete delusion. That's a very modern change.

>>8218419
Thanks.

>>8218411
>muh bacon
This has nothing to do with growing up eating meat, and everything to do with modern media culture.

>>8218429
I'd say both really, one leads to the other.
I understand though, I'm sorry my thoughts weren't as elaborate.

NEU5GC.

>>8218434
There is a definite interplay.

>>8218419
>and we have a potent immune response to it

Citation? We're exposed to millions of different kinds of xenobiotics on a daily basis with likely similar properties, it's the effect size that counts.

Based on that video it seems like it's mostly speculation from a few cell culture and murine studies.
This isn't my field... but I don't see how one could claim so stubbornly that it's the anti-panacea of humans with so little data. Tissues that are metabolically active like tumors and atheroma are going to accumulate more of everything, did they control for that?

>>8218450
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=neu5gc

There's only 16 pages. Multiple studies here, so more elaborate than others, lot of overlap. There's also a solid paper somewhere in there detailing present ideas about sialic acids and mammalian evolutionary history, as well as the presence of active systems to rapidly remove neu5gc from the CNS and inhibit its generation.

I've got the walls closing in on me here and am just repeatedly posting neu5gc while I think, because there should not be a single veganism thread without it mentioned in the OP.

>>8218380
>Vegan/vegetarian is ethically (and in some cases nutritionally) superior though
yep, thats how you spot a vegan

>>8218460
They're correct.

>>8218460
What's your point?

>>8218463
No they arent. Eat what you want, but dont be a cunt about it.

>muh evil farmers
>muh evil "meat eaters"
>muh suffering
>muh feelings

>>8218468
Yes, they are.

>Eat what you want, but dont be a cunt about it.
People don't exist in a vacuum, "meat eaters" actions affect everyone negatively.

Almost all of it is based on emotion and refusal to break familiar routine.

>>8218468
Does putting all people who are concerned about diet and env/bio ethics make you feel superior or something?

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>>8218380

>>8218476
in a box

>>8218477
okay

>>8218475
Well they think they are. And they wont leave out a chance to shove it down peoples throat how much better they are (at least a loud part of them)

>Almost all of it is based on emotion
That perfectly describes vegan argumentation

>>8218458
Thank you bro, I'll look into it

>>8218485
Yet here you are, complaining about your feelings.
"I feel like they're doing this, therefore they're like this."
You're arguing about insubstantial feels shit. Please stop.

>>8218485
>shove it down peoples throat
do you go outside? or just read youtube/tumblr comments all day

Vegans get hate because the diet doesnt follow the values most people are living by. They cant help but feel attacked and/or inferior because to them it's not normal.
>wait, ive been eating meat my whole life, I cant be a bad guy :(
So they defend themselves, even if that means ad hominem and nonsense

>>8218496
cont.
>they cant help but feel attacked
by "they" I mean some meat-eaters

>>8217187
>>8217562
Morals are a spook.

>>8218496
>Vegans get hate because the diet doesnt follow the values most people are living by. They cant help but feel attacked and/or inferior because to them it's not normal.
yep. You have zero self awareness. They dont feel infererior. Holy shit.
Yeah, no shit, if you act morally superior and imply that people are monsters for doing perfectly normal stuff, some of them will get quite defensive. And why not? Why should everybody just swallow that bullshit?

>>8218495
If you could read, you could see I was responding to someone who brought up the supposed moral superiority of vegans. I just pointed out, that they like to bring this up without giving any reasoning that doesnt involve "feels shit"

>>8218496
>>wait, ive been eating meat my whole life, I cant be a bad guy :(
strawmanning that hard now?

>>8218515
>yep. You have zero self awareness.
I wasn't implying anything, just regurgitating some psychology.
Not all vegans/vegetarians act morally superior, just the ones you read about online. There's a psychology term for that as well. I do however understand how you (assumed meat eater) might feel attacked this way though.

You are not a very friendly person huh?

>>8218495
>"I feel like they're doing this, therefore they're like this."
>You're arguing about insubstantial feels shit. Please stop.

see
>>8218496
He does exactly what you are describing. The irony is amazing

>>8218521
Just giving an example how how someone "may" feel. I don't know for sure.

Sorry my post offended you though?

>>8218521
is strawmanning a stawman fallacy ironic?

>#showerthoughts

>>8218526
I just think it shows how deluded you are, if you honestly think "meat eaters" just argue back because they feel inferior and/or just hate things that are different. I'm sorry if that doesnt seem very friendly, but your posts at least sound very condescending and as if you act morally superior.

>>8218529
Did me pointing out logical fallacies offend you?

>>8218537
>deluded
uhh
>honestly think "meat eaters" just argue back because they feel inferior
I don't though, I said some.

>>8218536
>misusing meme arrows
wew

>>8218541
>pointing out logical fallacies
A logical fallacy, only pointed out one

No, it didnt

>>8218551
I also used a hashtag on 4chan

>>8218550
So you dont actually think that way and posted
>>8218496
>Vegans get hate because the diet doesnt follow the values most people are living by. They cant help but feel attacked and/or inferior because to them it's not normal.

just for fun?

>>8218564
I said SOME. I do feel that way but Im not putting everyone in a box.

>just for fun
its psychology, its human nature, people are threatened by difference, hence cliques/competition/racism

>>8218571
Well, fine. Yeah a very small percentage could be the retards that are just threatened by difference, that you described. Fair enough.

Likewise one can assume that some vegans just want to rebel against the established system. You know, psychology and shit.

>>8218582
Not him but,
Is there really anything bad about a vegan or vegetarian diet?

>>8215552
You vegans and vegetarians are so fucking retarded and brainwashed.

Here's a clue: the image in your post has REPEATEDLY been proven to be not only 100% a lie, but in fact it was exposed that veganstreet.com purposely and intentionally released this and much more knowingly false propaganda in this series of flagrant and outright lies it created. Put simply, most of what is stated by vegans and vegetarians in their most cherished groups is outright lies.

In fact, you pretty much have to be certified retarded to even think that broccoli somehow has more protein than beef. Think about that. Then think about the fact that most of you idiots in this thread don't even have enough common sense to grasp this on your own without me someone pointing it out to you.

Here are the facts:

1. The entire premise is manipulative and based on deceit as it is written "per 100 calories". To even get to 100 calories of broccoli, you need 285.7 grams of broccoli. To get to 100 calories for beef, you only need 45.65 grams. So you would need to eat OVER SIX (6x) THE AMOUNT OF BROCOLLI AS COMPARED TO BEEF just to get to the 100 calories.
2. Even at the ridiculous and grossly misleading "per 100 calorie" deception, they purposely have lied in stating the protein content. Beef has 13.2 grams of protein (and literally 0 carbs) per 100 calories, while broccoli only has 6.8 grams of protein per 100 calories (and 20.51 grams of carbs).
3. Beef is nearly all protein. Broccoli (and most fruits, vegetables, etc.) are MOSTLY CARBOHYDRATE. That means they make you fat.
4. The amino acid profile of most vegetables is extremely limited while beef, etc., is very diverse. Put simply, the protein you get from veggies, is garbage protein that your body cannot even use in most circumstances because it lacks the critical amino acid diversity to actually build proteins and enzymes that your body needs.

Dumbasses.

>>8218602
Okay, you proved that OP image is wrong.
Why does that make vegans/vegetarians retarded?

>>8218600
No. As I said, eat what you want. If you do it right and maybe take some supplements, I'm sure it is healthy and you get the nutritions you need

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>>8215552
\I just think about it as if we are vampires harvesting the cows, pigs and chickens of the earth. It's greusome however, you need meat as farming in certain enviroments is a no go. People are dumb and out of fucking control man, consumerism is defined in an express term reguardless of how it sounds when you say it.

>>8218615
Well, if there's nothing wrong with plant based diets, but people are switching to it because cruelty, environmental factors, and disease, doesn't that make a plant based diet superior by definition? If not completely, just morally?

>>8218607
Not him but it's representative of the majority of their rhetoric.

Veganism is, on the individual level, probably better for the environment if you live in a developed country and consume primarily processed meats. Unfortunately it's a tragedy (comedy?) of the commons type scenario because only the most privileged people in economically developed countries are capable of sustaining a healthy year-round vegan diet. Most people don't have access to modern preservatives, fortification and wholefoods stores with shelves stacked with imported food from around the globe. They need animal products to eat when the primary vegetable crop is stale or out of season. The need animal products to obtain a good amino balance. Then need animal products to get sufficient micronutrients.

It's a tad ironic to consider that the people who claim passion, love and solidarity with nature would have 90% of the world starve to death come winter were their ideology to become universal.

>>8218380
>Vegan/vegetarian is ethically (and in some cases nutritionally) superior though.
Yeah, Hitler was such an ethical guy.

>>8217194
>No, that is not what it "merely means".
But that's what it primarily means. We're doing to nature what nature did to our ancestos for millions of years. Our existence and consumption replaces the existence and consumption of other predators. I'm not even sure there's now more animal suffering than there was before we started industrial farming. There's plausibly less.

Yes eco sentimentalists throw hissy fits because of the rainforests, but that doesn't mean a rational person has to.

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>>8218634

>>8218607
>Okay, you proved that OP image is wrong.
>Why does that make vegans/vegetarians retarded?

Retard confirmed
If you can't even figure out why your question makes you a confirmed retard, I feel sorry for you.
Hint: The premise upon which OP created this thread, his query, and his "chosen" image demonstrates that Retard #1 is OP. Put simply, he's too fucking dumb to even pretend to be smart and can't even chose an image that is anything more than pure fiction and propaganda. If you in turn think what was done is merely to "hurr-durr, prove op's image wrong not equal vegan veggie wrong, hurr-durr" than maybe you want to examine why you were lured into a thread by a retarded OP, or for that matter why you were incapable of applying common sense and recognizing the premise and image upon which OP built his thread was a lie and pure falsity grounded in propaganda. That you could not recognize this without this >>8218602 post (the assistance of someone intelligent, who has proper amino acid diversity because he eats fucking cow), and yet still post this >>8218607 and fail to realize your inability to see anything (likely due to your nutritional deficiencies) and life choices based in nonsense (begin vegetarian actually hurts animals and the environment in a significantly greater impact than does carnivores, but that's yet another topic I won't waste my time enlightening you on), then you need to maybe get off the internet and go read a book.

Again, >>8218607 retard confirmed.

Nice job missing the point and proving to all that vegans and vegetarians are retards. Thread fucking saved.

>>8218632
As a vegan, I understand global/cultural differences and would never look down on anyone in general for eating meat.

I do however have a problem with "muh bacon" and "i didnt climb to the top of the food chain to eat grass" like someone mentioned earlier.

>>8218380
>hur dur how do you know a person is a vegan KEK THEYLL TELL YOU

>>8218648
>As a vegan

>>8218607
>okay you proved that some vegans purposfully use wrong/misleading data to feel right
>how is that retarded?
come on. It is like neo-feminists pushing the wagegap meme

>>8218627
see
>>8218468

>>8218647
uhh?

>>8215552
Health is a meme. When you become a level 30 wizard like me, you no longer need "food".

>>8218652
is that the sound of getting btfo?

>>8218649
Yep, I said it.
But only because it was relevant?

>>8218652
jeezus dude, you need to stop
you just got publicly embarrassed
you still don't understand
you are making us veggietards look like literal retards
stop

>>8217287
This. Lots of studies have shown that being vegan can have long term negative health effects. The best diet recommended by the WHO is a plant based diet with meat. Avoid processed meat because the WHO classified it as a class 1 carcinogen. Vegans are also undernourished and skinny. They also lacked muscle mass which is necessary for metabolic sustainability.

>>8218657
>>8218663
The guy is being aggressive? Why would I feel embarrassed?

>>8218663
>publicly
What?

>>8218666
>guy refutes OP
>muh feels
ok, cool

>>8218659
You mocked the joke then became it. If you were attempting to discredit vegans you've done a fine job.

>>8218668
>publicly
Simple Definition of publicly
: in a way that is meant be heard or seen by many people
: in a way that can be used, seen, bought, etc., by anyone

>>8218632
mature response
>>8218647
basement dwelling response

>>8218666
if you don't feel embarrassed, you should
but i guess like everyones been saying, looks like you are too dumb to even understand why

>>8218679
but this is anon site

>>8218683
>>8218669

>>8218688
There are more than one anon.

>>8218670
Became it? I was pointing out that not all vegans feel that way? It was relevant?

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>>8218683
>mature
>4chan

Retard thrice confirmed

Does "mature" mean "someone who says something that doesn't point out how retarded I am" in your little retard world?

You're not suppose to eat a lot of veggies or fruits. Those are filled with fucking carbs which will make you fat. You are suppose to eat a portion of veggies and fruits per day. Vegans gain weight because of this nonsense they're better for you. All food is good for you in right dosages. Also can one of you /sci/entists provide a link on how to determine the proper way to get the protein gram per calories.

>>8218697
okay?

Kek, the posters count has stayed the same.
Literally one guy bashing this poor vegan

>>8218700
Go to WolframAlpha and input a certain quantity of a certain food.

Or use MyFitnessPal if you're looking to track calories and macros.

>>8218648
>have a problem with "muh bacon" and "i didnt climb to the top of the food chain to eat grass"
why? what do you even mean with "muh bacon"?

>>8218700
>Vegans gain weight because
Vegans gain weight due to their reliance on soybeans, and the fact that they don't eliminate sweeteners any more than the rest of the population. They might even be drawn to higher fructose sweeteners like agave.

>>8218709
Typical carnist response. You people disgust me.

>>8218709
Just people who argue against plant based diets for reasons without substance, I wasn't being literal.

Nicole Arbour's video on vegans is an example of dumb reasons.

I don't hate anyone, I'm sorry if I have upset anyone in the thread

>>8218705
I didn't know Wolfram Alpha had a food and nutrition section. Thank anon. No wonder Europeans are leaner than Americans.

>>8218704
>the posters count
>citing poster count
fyi, the counters have never worked correctly on 4chan
there's a whole bunch of reasons for this
moot even talked about scrapping it because of this but left it only because some complained that they needed it for image limit calc

everybody knows this
welcome newfag

>>8218716
i like meat
enjoy ur lack of protein XD

>>8218710
Yeah I figured this out when vegans eat a lot of soy products. Which is filled with estrogen and that hormone promotes weight gain. Often meat is lean as fuck and which is why athletes who eat meat are very lean and strong. The exercise helps a lot but exercising as shown to have little effect on weight management. It all in your diet and basal count.

>>8218716
>fat smelly backward ass vegan detected

>>8218726
Yep. If not the phytoestrogens, it's the other isoflavones, like genistein, which is goitrogenic.

>>8218716
You're an Apex Predator you better start acting like it. There is a reason why meat eating expanding our brains and gave us the key the kingdom. You want to protect animals? That's all fine and dandy. But never forget that animals will eat you if you let them. Even your beloved dogs will eat humans if they can. Sharks, lions, Crocodiles, and other known predators know to stay away from us, unless we get close to their domain.

>>8218724
>>8218727
>>8218732
I think it was troll guys

>>8218733
I troll am.

>>8218726
Nearly all scientific studies have shown that vegetables have nearly 20x the amount of toxins that meat has. Most have theorized that this is because the rain is known to contain toxins and carcinogens throughout the atmosphere that are absorbed directly by most vegetables when it rains. Animals that are eaten at least have a filtration system for this and so when you eat them, you don't absorb what they shit and pissed out.

Also, any moron who thinks there is actually such a thing as "organic" is naive. I've been in the industry for over 20 years now and have been here since "organic craze" started. It's all bullshit, let me assure you. This too has been studied in great detail and confirmed to be nonsense. Sadly, yet another reason why vegans are just dumb and like to preach, but really are just overpaying for everything and damaging their bodies and the environment.

>>8218722
>everybody knows this
i didnt, sounds shit

guess im a newfag
see yall later, gonna lurk for a couple years

>>8218726
>exercising is shown to have little effect on weight management

This is untrue. Exercising is merely not the ultimate solution to weight management that it was touted as in the early days of dietetics. These were the days of 'saturated fat is bad for you' and 'dietary cholesterol is absorbed 1:1 as serum cholesterol'; sciences in their infancy tend to get things wrong. We should avoid going full-circle though and recommending ketogenic diets and bodybuilding splits to overweight salarymen looking to lose 15lbs.

>>8218716
I just asked you to explain your reasoning. If namecalling is your idea of argumentation, then have fun my man

>>8218730
Anything from the phytoestrogen family will promote weight gain. Carbs are now getting a bad rep among doctors and scientists alike. A huge amount of carbs in your diet will promote weight gain and doctors have been advising their patients to avoid eating a lot of carbs. They're moving them to protein rich foods which has shown to be promoting weight loss but also repair and if you're working out, promote muscle gains. I stay away from foods like soy. Almonds is okay but I can't tolerate a lot of milk so I drink almond milk.

>>8218718
so basically:
>some retarded youtuber who is known for trolling said it

>>8218737
What if I plant my own lemons with some shitty dirt I found in the forest?

>>8218744
wasnt me, just a troll

>>8218740
He's right.
Counter has always been shit.
And yeah, only a newfag would cite to the counter.
Lol.

>>8218737
Oh I hate the organic meme. It just a marketing tool by agricultural companies. Organic usually means lots of pesticide and non-gmo. Anyone who is against GMOs is a retard. GMO is literally saving the third world from famine. GMO plants also take in less water and resources in general. Also can you give me a study on the toxic absorbed by veggies. I want to read more about this.

>>8218748
We both know there are plenty of people who think that way.
Plus, I was only demonstrating dumb reasons.

>>8218718
While I dont think the foodchain argument is very strong, it isnt completely bullshit either.

>>8218757
Alright, guess I learn something new.

Sorry, just have trouble with people who use words like newfag.
But I guess that makes me a newfag as well?

>>8218741
Exercising is not the only way to lose weight but it does help to keep you healthy and fit. But it shouldn't be touted as a weight loss method. It all determine by your basal count, diet, and exercising. Eating lots of carbs and low fats will promote kidney failure and beer belly.

>>8218760
As in, we deserve to eat animals?

>>8218757
>only a newfag would cite to the counter.
sounds like something a samefagger would say

>>8218764
By the laws of nature, sure.

>>8218764
As in, eating meat was/is an essential part in our evolution and allowed us to be one of the most succesfull species on the planet

>>8218732
>There is a reason why meat eating expanding our brains
Cooking food allowed our neuron count to rise greatly. Our digestive system allowed us to survive in many climates.

>You want to protect animals?
Yes. And given that I'm a human living in an era with advanced agriculture, mechanized farming, refrigeration, rapid transport, etc, I have the spine to recognize that unlike my ancestors I have a real choice, and the intelligence to act on it.

My dominance over all else is so great that I am afforded the means to simply step out, and cease to interact with the feed or be fed upon world entirely. Until I'm eaten by bacteria. Maybe it's time you step up, slave ape. :^)

>>8218737
This is largely from heavy fertilizer use, and the burning of coal, oil, gas, etc. You're also greatly overestimating what sort of "filtration" a given animal is doing.

>>8218758
People are largely against Monsanto, and rightly so. Stop conflating things in your mind.

>>8218771
>>8218772
No doubting that.
If some people can get by without it, I see nothing wrong with it

>>8218773
Which is it? Monsanto or gmo? This is what anti-gmo people get confused by arguing their points. They can't differentiate what is the problem.

>>8218780
What's wrong is that they claim, often obnoxiously, that their ideology is morally, environmentally and physiologically superior while either refusing to substantiate those claims or backing them with deceit, misleading statements or outright lies. Harming others in the process.

>>8218773
While I agree with you, and think more people should be like you

Chillout. Just because everyone on 4chan is an aggressive edgelord, doesn't mean you have to be

>>8218789
Yes, those types of attitudes are terrible.
Have you considered that the portion of people like that is inflated though?

>>8218780
yeah sure. But anon said, the "top of the foodchain" argument is dumb. It isnt

>>8218793
It is possible. Though stereotypes exist for a reason.

>>8218782
Because the two are intertwined and also a subset of a bigger picture. The greater logical framework is often difficult to convey because each element tends to be met with absurd skepticism and intellectual dishonesty.

Also, a lot of people arguing for this angle don't really see the bigger picture themselves, or don't care to communicate it. Even if they functionally kind of net out as being on the right side.

>>8218791
It's kind of fun. I wasted a lot of time over many years being too patient, and given people more than they deserved. Hoping I'd plant the seeds, or give some onlooker something of value.

I don't even care at this point. My post was kind of meant to be funny (in a mocking sense, in that I echoed their tone), but I don't actually care if I appear hostile or escalate something.

>>8218796
We shouldn't waste our time on people like that anyway

>>8218802
So you're saying Monsanto created GMO to control you?

back to
>>>/x/ you faggot. At least those guys are entertaining in their conspiracy theories.

>>8218602
1. And? The average person already gets too many Calories. And remember to capitalize the C next time.
2.See above. People already eat too much. If they eat mostly meat then they are far exceeding their nutritional requirements. Eating more vegetables is usually a good idea.
3.
>carbs make you fat meme
4. You can get a diversity of nutrition by eating a diversity of vegetables. If someone itt claimed you can live off nothing but broccoli then yeah, they are dumb.

All that said, I agree that the OP's image is an oversimplification.

>>8218806
I tend not to. But when you're discussing a cult it's important to dissect the manner in which cultists present themselves to outsiders. For example, Protestantism is a better religion than New Guinean Tribalism in this regard.

>>8218807
I wonder what proportion of the time people interpret what I say in a way that accurately approximates the intent of the source.

I'm slowly starving here and just ate a few spoonfuls of pure cane sugar (this sucanat stuff), and my mind is turning hazy. We'll do it this way, you tell me why you think I meant what you think I meant, and I'll tell you how it really is. We'll iterate until we iron this out.

>>8218802
>Because the two are intertwined and also a subset of a bigger picture
NO. If you are concerned about shady business politics of huge firms that have much too much controle, be my guest.
But genetical engineering is a whole other subject

>>8218817
>But genetical engineering is a whole other subject
If only it was so anon, but it just ain't.

Genetic engineering in the abstract is meaningless if there's nothing to execute it. The problems with GMOs are tied to our economics, our societies, and ultimately, the nature of our species itself. Throughout history if we've proven one thing, it's that we can't handle much of anything, ever. Present conditions potentiate all of our worst behaviors, and couldn't be more unideal.

Humans are machines of finite mind, and finite sensors, and thus finite capacity for novel behaviors and awareness of novel context. There is a reason our history is littered with repeating outcomes, predictable cycles, and the same old dynamics again and again. Technology only gives us the means to be the same thing in news ways, and the thing we are is pretty shit. We ought to face this before attempting to continue. Anything else is simply living damage control in progress.

>>8218832
I can see where you are comming from. But powerful tools can always be used for different purposes (see nuclear power, medicine, tnt, rocket engines,...).

GMO in the hands of someone who is responsible and wants to use it for good, usually turns out great.
for example this guy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug

But on the other hand there is monsanto.

I dont really share your pessimism about technology.

>>8218848
The potential of genetic engineering is massive. Real shame about us.

Don't know how it all pans out. Years of watching people separate out and polarize into binary tribes has rendered me pretty bitter, knowing full well I am functionally left to play both sides, cause' they're both wrong. If I'm not careful it subconsciously primes me with a stress response.

You seem pretty reasonable though. Oh well. I'm in a lot of pain, and I guess I don't even care. I'll read about the guy you linked some other time.

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>>8218868
I know that feels bro. Maybe this animal buddy webm will cheer you up a little

>>8218726
>exercising as shown to have little effect on weight management

Dumbest thing I've read all week.

>>8218949
They're correct. Weight management is all about core lifestyle changes, to a great extent diet.

>>8218949
Yeah this is true. Sorry you don't know this anon.

>>8218949
Ice age heat wave, can't complain. If the world's at large, why should I remain? Walked away to another plan, gonna find another place, maybe one I can stand.

I move on to another day, to a whole new town with a whole new way. Went to the porch to have a thought, got to the door and then I couldn't stop. You don't know where and you don't know when, but you've still got your words and you've got your friends. Walking on to another day, work a little harder, work another way.

Uh-uh baby I ain't got no plan, I'll float on maybe would you understand. Gonna float on maybe would you understand. Well I'll float on maybe would you understand.

The days get shorter and the nights get cold, I like the autumn but this place is getting old. I pack up my belongings and I head for the coast, it might not be a lot but I feel like I'm making the most. The days get longer and the nights smell green, I guess it's not surprising but it's spring and I should leave.

I like songs about drifters, books about the same. They both make me feel a little less insane. Walked on off to another spot, I still haven't gotten anywhere that I want. Did I want love? Did I need to know? Why does it always feel like I'm caught in an undertow?

The moths beat themselves to death against the lights, adding their breeze to the summer nights. Outside water like air was great, I didn't know what I had that day. Walk a little farther to another plan, you said that you did, but you didn't understand.

I know there's no restarts, that's not what life's about, but my thoughts were so loud I couldn't hear my mouth.

>>8218954
>>8218973
>laws of thermodynamics are bullshit

>>8218984
You obviously don't know anything about thermodynamics, nor the system you're trying to naively apply it to.

>>8218990
ellaborate then, please

isnt exercise only beneficial for weight loss if the calories burned exceeds the caloric intake?

I mean, even if you ran 10 miles a day, your still gonna be fat if you scarf down 10 bigmacs for lunch

>>8219012
You won't be anywhere near as fat as if you didn't exercise though

>>8219012
Thats true. But you still gain less fat. Weight loss is kind of misleading anyway, since exercising will also increase your muscles which is a good way of gaining weight

>>8219012
if you put on a lot of muscle mass (bodybuilding) you can increase REE quite a bit

there's also interesting effects on the drive to eat - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2927536 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2927527 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23386418 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17130481

>>8215552
>pic
>per 100 calories

That's about a 11-12 inch long large stalk of broccoli around 285g.
Or, like 28.5g/1.01ounces of beef steak.

>>8218994
More or less, you're treating the body like a vehicle you fill with gas. Burn the gas to produce work, excrete byproducts via your exhaust.

This is why I called your notion of thermodynamics "naively" applied, you're trying to evaluate a system's I/O without knowing anything about what's between the I and the O. If you don't believe me, ask yourself why fat people can't just stop eating for a while until all the excess shit in adipose is gone. You might respond "because the process of accessing fat stores is too slow, has some overhead, and not all fat can be accessed at once." From this I would say you must ask yourself "why". And consider the mechanics involved in even the most simple tasks, like regenerating muscle and liver glycogen.

The fat guy can very easily sit there and starve to death. He can engage in rigorous physical exertion, and end up having as much muscle eating itself as brown adipose that's been freed. There's also the matter of conversion between white and brown adipose.

Etc. The point is, every damn time, people don't look at the finer mechanics behind HOW the body does anything. It's not linear, and it's not magic. It has limits and it's kind of sloppy. Look into fructolysis if you want an example of how food content matters.

>>8219223
>you're treating the body like a vehicle you fill with gas
My point wasnt that the human body is an extremely simple system, but that simple thermodynamically principles still have to apply to it, no matter how complex our metabolism is.
This might be a gross oversimplification but it is still now wrong:
Exercising needs energy. Energy "used" in exercising, wont be "stored" as fat. Energy in, energy out.
Of course a responsible diet plays a much more important part, but I'm sick of fat people excuses. Losing weight is not complicated and your body wont magically generate energy or weight.

>>8219233
>now wrong
oops, I meant "not wrong"

>>8219233
>Exercising needs energy.
This is true. The body is definitely a machine and slave to physics.

>Energy "used" in exercising, wont be "stored" as fat.
This gives the wrong impression and is only indirectly accurate. It endorses the "energy balance" concept, ie, eat whatever trash you want, as much as you want, as long as you "get up and get moving! Work it off!", when in reality that's not even possible and not how usage of incoming nutrients works. If you eat a shitload of fructose, or just a sheer mass of calories, it's going to go to free circulating triglycerides and likely adipose, whether you like it or not.

Exercise is important, but for completely different reasons.

>Energy in, energy out.
The issue with this is how vague it is. Technically, though not usually in healthy persons, the kidneys can just remove excess sugar from the blood and you'll piss it out. Yes, reaction potential left, but not how you'd have thought.

It's better to give people simple, but accurate heuristics that guide them to real lifestyle changes.

>but I'm sick of fat people excuses
Fat people must be informed that many aspects of their experience are illusions that don't map to any real need. ie, their hunger response is greatly exaggerated by more adipose to secrete leptin etc. Also, eating fructose bypasses satiety signalling pathways until much later, causing more short term eating.

>Losing weight is not complicated
This we agree on, but you need to realize that your perspective is already in widespread use, and it doesn't get results. Time to stop dicking around with thermodynamics and treat the machine mechanically.

>>8219241
>This gives the wrong impression and is only indirectly accurate...
>the issue with this is how vague it is
fair point. But thats why I said
>Of course a responsible diet plays a much more important part
and
>gross oversimplification

I dont disagree with your statements about hunger responses either. You really seem quite reasonable.
I was initially responding to anons dismissing the value of exercising and I still think, that increasing your energy consumption plays a big part in getting rid of fat.
But maybe I'm biased here, since I once was a fat fuck myself and the one thing that really helped me was doing sport everyday. While forcing yourself to eat things you are not used to (as an unfit person) is mildly unpleasant, exercising gets really satisfying and fun after a while. So yeah, aside from the simple thermodynamical implications, I think it is a huge psychological factor.

>>8215614
>eat 5g of beef to get 11.1g of protein
This must be some magic fckn beef.

>>8217565
>Down on your knees, peasant. This is your salvation.

Au contraire kid, but if you dress nice for daddy, maybe I'll let you have a taste of my meat.

>>8215650
>what are high-fat vegan foods such as peanuts, olive oil, etc.
Not even a vegan but that's a shit argument.

>>8217658
>Quality of plant matter considered acceptable for human consumption is much higher than for animals, though.

This is absolutely true, my 1k/10k comparison was deliberately simplified.

A good use of animals is conversion of inedible (to humans) calories into human-edible calories.

Grasses are one such thing, but most places that can grow grass could, instead, grow cereals. Forests, however, are necessary for wood production, and you cannot reasonably convert them to fields. The mast of most domesticated forests is typically inedible to humans (unlike everybody converts to hazelnut furniture?) but edible to either deer or pigs, depending. As such, even if every single cereal-capable soil was converted to cereal production, there would still be left-over human-inedible calories in mast, in hay and in seaweeds.

Long term - ultra long term, I mean - when humanity has reached into the hundreds of billions and all the petrochemicals are depleted, I would expect the last meat to be abandoned as the mast and hay is instead converted into necessary bio-based fuels and oils, but it will be many years yet before we reach the point where meat is categorically irresponsible.

>>8218215
>What is rain

Insufficient to our use.

Do you have any further questions? Maybe "what are lakes?"

>>8218336
>Yes, California has a terrible drought. That's why their top 2 agricultural products are pot and wine.

California HAS a terrible drought.

That's because they've decided to grow water-intensive Alfala in a desert.

>But how can they afford to grow water intensive crops in a desert?

Subsidies.

The state is PAYING THEM TO USE WATER.

(Well, paying them to grow a crop that uses water, same diff)

To quote SSC:

>In fact, though I am not at all sure here and I’ll want a real economist to double-check this, it seems to me if we wanted to buy out all alfalfa growers by paying them their usual yearly income to just sit around and not grow any alfalfa, that would cost $860 million per year and free up 5.3 million acre-feet, ie pretty much our entire shortfall of 6 million acre-feet, thus solving the drought. Sure, 860 million dollars sounds like a lot of money, but note that right now California newspapers have headlines like "Billions In Water Spending Not Enough, Officials Say." Well, maybe that’s because you’re spending it on giving people $125 rebates for water-saving toilets, instead of buying out the alfalfa industry. I realize that paying people subsidies to misuse water to grow unprofitable crops, and then offering them countersubsidies to not take your first set of subsidies, is to say the least a very creative way to spend government money – but the point is it is better than what we’re doing now.

>>8218460
>yep, thats how you spot a vegan

Hey check this:

Veganism is ethically superior.

Am I a vegan?

Hint - While answering, keep in mind: Your heuristics are terrible and your intelligence is low.

>>8218722
>welcome newfag

I didn't know this and I've been on 4chan for a decade.

Some of us just come here for the bantz, we don't waste our time paying attention to every little thing.

Bring back

>>>/prog/

>>8217562
>The author does not believe that a vitamin B12 deficiency is more widespread in vegans or vegetarians - this is probably just another marketing lie! In fact, many so-called studies 'showing vegans deficient' have to be carefully studied themselves - many of them do not prove vegans to be deficient at all! In fact, contrary to meat and dairy industry propaganda, meat-eaters are known to be more likely to have a vitamin B12 deficiency - this has been known since 1959!!(1)
>1. 'Fit for Life', Diamond, H. and M., 1987
http://www.vibrancyuk.com/B12.html

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>>8218634
>It's the Hitler was a vegetarian time again

>>8219454
>we don't waste our time
>paying attention to facts
even worse than newfag

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>>8215641
>The meat industry is ethically detestable and the number one contributor to greenhouse gas emissions


No, not even close. And here is the worst part: fertilizer use is a source of greenhouse gas as well.

>>8219453
does your argument go beyond namecalling, or is this an sad attempt at trolling?

>>8219557
And they fertilize plants to feed the animals.
What is so hard to understand ?

>>8219557
that picture looked like bart simpson from the thumbnail

>>8219663
They also fertilize plants to feed the vegans and normal people

>>8218634
No no no, anon. If I'm a vegan, I HAVE to be a good guy! After all, thats the main reason I do it. I want to feel good about myself and everyone to know how morally superior I am.
Btw., vegan here
GO VEGAN
STOP PUPPY RAPING

>>8219675
33% of world’s fish catch
38% of the world’s grain harvest
50% of all the water used in the US
60% of Brazil’s grain harvest
70% of US grain harvest
80% of US corn harvest
Almost half of all energy expended in US agriculture

>>8219675
This is what is wasted to raise the livestock >>8219682

>>8219685
First: [citation needed]
Vegans have a bad track record when it comes to handle statistics, sorry.
Also, how is it """wasted""" if it is used to raise livestock?

>>8219440
lol moron

>>8219340
>hurr durr im being obtuse on purpose

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stop eating meat if you like
it's fine for women; they get slim like celebrities and the absence of animal hormones on their diets make them slightly less crazy
for men, if you stop eating meat and dairy you'll become thin as a rake. if that's what you want, fine

>>8219696
http://www.earthsave.org/environment.htm

>Also, how is it """wasted""" if it is used to raise livestock?

It's a long going discussion, you can google it and find out yourself.
http://features.peta2.com/making-the-connection/world-hunger.aspx
http://gentleworld.org/could-veganism-end-world-hunger/

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>tfw most vegans dont even know how many animal products they are still using
>still hold snobbish and preachy lectures about how much better they are for not "literally raping" animals
hypocritical as fuck, to be quite frankly

>>8219557

Grass farming.

That's all I have to say to you.

>>8219708
Veganism definition
>A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.

Also, most of those everyday products have vegan options. The biggest concern for other people is leather, but the world is full of fake leather.

>>8219706
>it is a peta propaganda episode

We can also end world hunger with a responsible use of GMOs. Or by stopping to exploit third world countries. Or by stopping to invest so much in the military. Or by helping certain countries to develop a modern and sustainable agriculture. Or by introducing the farming of insects as our main source of proteins. Or....

Seeing livestock as a waste seems a bit deluded to me, since that livestock will actually feed people.
And oh boy, the implications of everybody becoming vegan...

>>8219719
So it boils down to what the individual deems "possible and practicable". Well, then I'm a vegan too

>>8219728
Changing our lifestyle choices are easier than changing out how our political powers work.

>>8219730
This definition was written in war period. Just because you "can't" stop eating meat doesn't mean that it isn't possible.
Don't be fucking stupid and act like an adult.

>>8219736
>hurr u dumb
Ok. good point.

I'm sure it would be possible for a lot of vegans to stop using animal products completely. But they either deem it unpracticable or are (willfully?) ignorant about it.

Everyone ITT: Read 'The Omnivore's Dilemma'.

You're all wrong and right in particular ways.

Just read a well researched book about it all.

>>8219749
There are many people in the world.
I even have met "vegans" who ate fish.
Either they are ignorant or dumb enough that they don't research veganism and everything it includes.
Also
>>hurr u dumb
>Ok. good point.
I didn't imply that you are dumb, just that you were acting dumb.

>>8219755
>I even have met "vegans" who ate fish.
Wow quit food shaming. If someone identifies as a vegan then they are vegan, ok.

>>8219755
Yeah, I'm a "vegan" who only eats meat from the hunter or local farmer.
Give me a break

>>8219760
>>8219762
Alright, if you don't want discussion then I would leave.
Just know that the loud minority of vegans aren't the right representation.We just want everybody else to live healthier lives, without animal and human suffering.

>>8219767
well sorry, for thinking a fish eating vegan sounds kind of dumb. This just fueled my belief that some vegans are huge hypocrits

Eating vegetables should lead to a more pacific and life; but how many of them should a human eat a day to replace the fish meat? Without a rigid control of energy there's going to happen a waste and eating meat is a quick way to recover energy for most humans. Humans with a strict vegan diet will have to eat more than a human who eats meat for example.

You can find a balance for things. Eat a portion of fish and then just eat fruits and vegetables for the rest of the day.

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>>8219682
>50% of all the water used in the US

No, not really. Were are you getting your facts from? Even with all of the water use of Irrigation and livestock put together that is only up to 39% of total for the US.

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>>8219781
>Eat a portion of fish and then just eat fruits and vegetables for the rest of the day
Sounds pretty shitty to me

>>8219783
not him, but:
>http://www.earthsave.org/environment.htm
>[32] Frances Moore Lappe, Diet for a Small Planet, 10th Anniversary edition (New York: Ballantine Books, 1982), pg. 69.

Apparently those are good sources if you are willing to nitpick in order support your narrative

>>8219783
>livestock 1%
btfo

>>8219781
>Eat a portion of fish

The worlds supple of fish is only go down at current rate. Over fishing is a very real problem. The south China sea for example is at 58% of 90s level of fish production and dropping.

Replacing red eat with fish for a general population just is not a good idea at this point.

We all know what to do

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insect_farming

http://borgenproject.org/insects-may-solve-world-hunger/

The only argument against this is: "that sounds icky and we are not used to this"

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>>8219795
That is for direct use, not growing the feed. Still nowere near the 50% mark.

>>8219789
>[32] Frances Moore Lappe, Diet for a Small Planet, 10th Anniversary edition (New York: Ballantine Books, 1982), pg. 69.

>10th Anniversary edition
>1982

That is a estimate that is at its newest from 1982, realistically it is from 1972 or oldier. Even if it was right back then I do not thing that it is right these days. Nothing on that website is newer then 1995 btw.

The first chart was from 2010, have a different one from the same year.


http://water.usgs.gov/watuse/wuto.html

The U.S. Geological Survey should be viewed as about as trustable of a source that one can get on the matter right/

Vegans are fucking stupid and I will cannibalize on them when the time is right.

>>8221344
>Implying you could

>>8219461
Lmfao

enjoy your brain damage

Besides the social aspect, why do people hate vegans?
Why do people preface facts/opinions with "oh boy you vegans are stupid"?

jus4fun?

>>8218395
Only beef has negative effects in humans, kiddo.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23602247

Have fun with that projector. Meanwhile in reality poultry, fish, and milk show beneficial effects on brain health.

>>8216123
>tfw can't just pour a carton of protein mix into a kitchen countertop machine and print out steaks and bacon strips
born too soon

>>8221424
Neu5gc is neu5gc.

Milk is net negative for the typical individual.
Poultry and fish lack neu5gc. Turkey is likely the best flesh to feast upon health-wise.

>>8221468
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25406801
>Based on systematic reviews, the highest levels of dairy product consumption may significantly reduce depression and cognitive impairment, decrease fracture risk, and increase bone mass and bone mineral density

Fuck off, retard.

The issues of both health and environmental I pact are nuanced. It is much easier to consume lots of of calories and protein through eating meat due energy density and being a!complete protein source. As for the production side there is again some complication as land that isn't well suited for growing crops is being used to grow feed for livestock. If say the grass land of north America west of the 100 horizontal were to be used to graze cattle you would have a fairly carbon neutral process but the meat would require more labour to produce and so be more expensive. More expensive meat wouldn't necessarily be all that bad though because it's obvious people who sit at adesk all day shouldn't eat lots of meat.

>>8221468
>>8221496
He is not wrong though. It is bad for most people as most people are lactose intolerant. I am guessing that was whaf he was getting at, which is lame for us who can drink milk.

>>8221504
>what is low-lactose milk
>what are all the other dairy products that don't contain lactose

>>8221504
No, nothing so disingenuous. Just neu5gc.