CS

the deal is that panjeeb from duckaduckastan can do a 6 month degree and get your job

I love how geophys is in both the "good" and "great" tier.

>>8201423
> try to reason with memes
nice way to waste time. kek

>>8201424
nice meme

>>8201423
Nobody likes CS people because they have the bad reputation of being average fags who do not care about the /sci/ of their subject. They are usually really dumb.

People who care about CS study EE, CE and/or mathematics. When you enroll and meet your classmates you will know what I'm talking about.

CS is good at getting you jobs because it is a degree made to get you a job. CS people are not particularly smart, they just took the easiest path towards an average middle class life.

>>8201433
to save me some time;
can you explain the main differences between CE and CS?

>>8201446

Not him.

do you even know what an engineer does?

>>8201446
Not that anon but I'll answer anyway
CS: Computer Science - Programming, Projects, Algorithms, some low-level stuff
CE: Computer Engineering - Fairly similar to CS but less projects and programming, more electronics. In my university both CS and CE do roughly the same amount of math.

>>8201446
>can you explain the main differences between CE and CS?

This is as easy as pointing the problem CS has and CE doesn't.

CS teaches you the basics of many different things (namely math, electrical engineering and computer engineering) so that you can work as programmer anywhere you want, but not so that you have deep knowledge of any field.

CE specializes in CE and obviousloy this is less complete than EE so ideally you would want to study EE unless you really only cared about computers.

To make my point clear I googled an university arbitrarily and found their CE and CS programs.

If you think I am cherry picking feel free to find another university and do the same.

CS: https://www.ccny.cuny.edu/sites/default/files/compsci/upload/Requirements-for-B-S-Computer-Science-Spring-2012.pdf
CE:https://www.ccny.cuny.edu/compeng/curriculum

CS math requirements: calculus 1 to 3 and elementary linear algebra.
CE math requirements: calculus 1 to 3, differential equations, linear algebra and vector analysis.

One is objectively better than the other.

*I will ignore lib arts requirements because who gives a fuck.

Now, CS has 'science requirements' and CE has 'engineering requirements' but they are both the core fundamental topics that you need to study them so I will act as if they are the same.

CS requirements: General Biology, Chemistry and Physics. Literally why the fuck?

CE requirements: Engineering design, circuits and computer aided analysis. All directly related topics. 10/10

Then comes the meat of the actual education:

CE has the fundamentals of both computer science and computer engineering. Then you can choose on top of that the systems track or computation track to realize yourself as a full computer engineer.

CS has theory and applications, computational techniques for /sci/, and computer systems. The list of require subjects here is not that good either and jumps from theoretical to applied to *REALLY APPLIED*

>>8201423
70k a year + company car + company ammenities to make my life perfect at work and flexible hours vs 100k a year at a tech company that rides me like $5 Bavarian whore and will throw me out the second I show any kind of unproductivity

hmmm... really makes you think OP

>>8201495

Which one is which?

>>8201429
>What are H1-Bs

Not OP but I want to ask about comparison of EE and CE because yesterday I got my recruitment status in university of technology and I passed EE and in CE I am on reserve list. I do really enjoy everything related with tech, especially computers and now I don't know if I should really care about CE anymore.

>>8201588
OP here, this anon explained the differences between CE and CS pretty nicely or at least he said almost everything that I wanted to know. (click post number below)

>>8201468
>>8201468
thanks btw, helped a lot

>>8201423
>Not majoring in math and doing a coding bootcamp + launchcode to get your foot in the door.

>>8201424
And then fuck it up which costs the company millions. Heard a lot of these 3rd world stories. And if a 3rd worlder is actually good, he's going to demand at least the same money they pay a western cs dude.

>>8201423
The tier at the top is obviously edited in and did not appear there originally. Kek. Fucking engineers, man.

>>8201433
FUCKING THIS SO DAMN MUCH!

A friend of mine is the manager of a small computer repairs shop. He could get your data off a physically damaged Hard Drive, no problem. Could build you an awesome computer at a decent price. And so on.

But Goddamn, he is the dumbest MOFO I have ever met. Barely passed classes in high school (even the ones he "tried" in like physics and anatomy), will regurgitate shit he's heard but can't tell you what it all means, and to this day still needs help spelling basic English words.

DESU, I wonder how many times he's stopped for a moment and been grateful that he know so much about 1 thing and nothing else...

>>8201423
>Accounting above marketing
lolno

>>8201495
WHICH ONE IS WHICH!?! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD

>Criminal Justice in Good tier
Is this like Lawyers or is actually Criminal Justice? I'm interested.

>>8201446
lmao you literally don't even know what an engineer is.

>>8202297
CS is the Bavarian whore.

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>>8201423

>>8202487
I would dig a CS course like this guy's teachings: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rwh Shame no one's doing that where I live, and I guess I wouldn't appreciate it straight out of high school anyway.

>Implying any kind of engineering is harder than abstract thinking majors
>Implying that being able to integrate e^x a bunch of times over the course of your career is worthy of a $100k salary
>Implying that any major that isn't engineering isn't worth pursuing

Look, if you want to do easy math for all of your college career, attempt to land a job in a saturated field, work with a bunch of reddit browsing, fedora tipping, mouth-breathing neck beards that use computer programs to do everything for them, then by all means, do engineering. It is what all stupid people who want to be admired by others for being "smart" do to make easy money.

>>8202208
Your friend isn't a computer scientist. He is an IT technician, you utter twat.

>>8201446
Engineering is legally defined.

>>8201446
The big generalization is engineers make things and scientists try to figure out things that haven't been figured out yet.

>>8201423
>Compared to majority of people with phys,math majors...etc. CS gets you way better quality of life, getting a job is way easier...etc.
i have a bridge to sell you check my email field
good luck and go for gold!

>>8201423

Are these degrees Bachelor or Master's level?

>>8202753
t. unemployed civil engineer

Will I die poor if I don't have an Engineering degree?

>>8202769
No. The world is not as scary as people make it out to be. Engineers have an easier time but most adults have jobs and not most adults studied engineering.

>>8201678
opportunity cost is not real cost, if your shit is broken then bill the client, bad codebase is the result of shitty management not bad programmers

>>8202769

Depends on what you do with your life. One does not need a degree to get into the middle class life. Trade schools are viable and something I wished I went to instead of spending years at a CC just so that I can transfer to a university for an engineering degree. If I could go back just five years, I'd get into plumbing or electrician.

>>8202769
You can skip college, become an electrician, specialize in industrial, and make as much as the vast majority of engineers. You'll generally have to do more "work work" though. Amusingly, you'll likely end up working with a lot of engineers who never bothered getting their PE too who'll get paid pretty much what you do and have to do a lot more paperwork than you will.

>>8202769
I need you to understand just how many people survive without any college degree at all.

Is cs worth pursuing if you arent too fond of it

>>8204570
>Is cs worth pursuing if you arent too fond of it

No degree is worth the shit you have to swallow to get it if you aren't fond of it. There is a reason only 42% actually finish the degree they went to get (in 6 years or less). There is so much shit to swallow along the way that if you do not genuinely enjoy what you are studying to outweight the shit then you are going to either drop out or graduate as the most empty soul less shell of a human being.

Recently graduated Chem E here

Can confirm that STEM is a meme and doing trade school is a perfectly viable alternative.

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>>8201423
That pic

>Ecology not God tier

Dropped

DESU, if I knew it earlier I would have switched to either EE or applied mathematics. CS is a bit too broad. It's not bad if the program is decent enough tho

What other have said about people from fuckistan taking your job, it's only for shit tier web dev jobs at a cookie cutter startup that will die in a couple years. If that's the job you want, you don't even need to study really.

Just apply yourself, find your interest and work as hard as you can on it. If you are good you'll find yourself working on a nice and fulfilling project eventually

>>8204579
>graduate as the most empty soul less shell of a human being.

Not him, but I used to be a NEET, so I'm used to that.

>>8204650
Then why not just kill yourself?

>>8204655
Who?

>>8204657
You, the NEET.

>>8204661
I'm definitely going to try to get my PhD, this was something of a gap year.

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>>8201423
we hate you because of those reasons exactly.

all of my friends, including myself, are studying PhDs in hard sciences and getting a job above $80k starting with a doctoral degree is certainly not guaranteed.

you learn the easiest shit and get paid more. it sounds like CS is the next to be oversaturated along with engineering. welcome to the club.

>>8204663
>I'm definitely going to try to get my PhD
>Getting a PhD in 2016

That is close enough to killing yourself that I will take it. Good job my man, you delivered.

>>8204666

Everything is oversaturated these days. The soft sciences, the liberal arts degrees, etc. There really is anything that isn't saturated except some trade jobs. Eventually those will get saturated, too. Just like the businesses want.

>>8204668
>posting on /sci/ without a phd
>>>/reddit/

Need help with Java, using around a decade
old library to make a simple test game.
Library doesn't support JColor, any alternatives?

>>8202514
So you are starting uni this fall ? I hope your dreams won't be crushed too fast :^)

>>8201423
How is microbio in a lower tier than bio? It's just as challenging and just as marketable.

I'm 22 too, a normal construction site worker, buying my own apartment soon, maybe you should take the same path.

Once you have permanent job, apartment you can do what ever you feel like during your free time as a hobby, a passion, you don't need schools to become an expert in those areas, far from it.

>>8205223
Not everyone wants to be a construction worker. In many areas you do need a school to become an expert in those areas, mainly because if you do not have a degree you will never be even allowed to enter the field so that you can even apply your expertise.

Also. how the fuck did you get to /sci/? Don't get me wrong, I respect your way of life, but in these past few days I've seen many posts about trade people who are in unions and do mostly manual non /sci/ work. How the fuck do that kind of people reach /sci/?

>>8205241

Obviously not for everyone, but sometimes your passion is not the best field to work at, when it comes to computer sciences.

Work is to make a living, free time is to pursue the your passions.

>>8205256
>Work is to make a living, free time is to pursue the your passions.
Truly spoken like a slave

>>8205256
You should try getting paid doing something you love.

It's like never having to work a day in your life

>>8204684
>Java
Get the fuck out, you fagnon.

CS is just kind of gay. You do weird shit like

variable = variable + 5;

You can't derive things from basic principles. There's a lot of counter intuitive stuff. And yeah half your classmates will be neckbeards and nerdy lanky guys who think they're hot shit because they modded some games back in highschool.

Man, fuck CS majors.

>>8205416
Half my CS classmates are retarded. Intro to CS was a nightmare, it was in java for starters, the book we used was overpriced garbage, and we barely touched on algorithms. All this and people were still dropping out of the class. Data Structures was even worse, but I'm glad that after this I'll only interact with the retards for a couple required courses.

OP don't take any language specific courses besides maybe C. Avoid stuff like web dev and app development too. You can learn that stuff from a YouTube video in an hour and have as much depth as the course would teach you. Focus on algorithms and math (calc 1-3, linear algebra, differential equations, discrete math, statistics) to get a solid foundation. Systems programming and networking are good to know. Then pick a specialty.

>>8205416
>You do weird shit like
>variable = variable + 5;
What is programming without mutability?

Fucking newb.

>>8205497
Do what this guy says.

Also, if you want a job, stay in CS, don't do CE or EE; it's easier to get a coding job with a CS degree.

>>8205506
I never said there was some other better way, just that it's inherently gay.

>>8205506
pretty sure that without write-memory-access you get some computational model that is strictly less powerful than a turing maching.
I am in fact somewhat amazed someone would have a problem with writing variables to memory.

I can only guess the person had a problem with the equality sign in that context, but that's just completely standard in C-like languages.
if you want comparison, use ==

if youre writing pseudocode in a mathematical paper simply write
variable <- variable + 5

>>8205537
>pretty sure that without write-memory-access you get some computational model that is strictly less powerful than a turing maching.
You might as well say writing anything but ASM or machine code is strictly less powerful. You'd still be wrong.

Regardless, it is not necessarily about language choice. I prefer to isolate mutable shell from functional core. This limits the extent of the other person's silly bitching. It's still silly, but excessive mutability isn't great.

>>8201468
>cuny.edu
What is this, a university for pedos?

>>8205552
>writing anything but ASM or machine code is strictly less powerful
that is fucking retarded and I never said nor implied such a retarded statement.

you're pretty retarded if you think a computational model without write-access to memory can be as powerful as a turing machine

>>8205497
Also compliers, os and basic physics.

>>8205537
>pretty sure that without write-memory-access you get some computational model that is strictly less powerful than a turing maching.
Just how retarded are you?

>>8202301
Criminal Justice is SHIT bachelors degree. Law is what lawyers study, in order to earn the title Juris Doctor

>>8205565
>you're pretty retarded if you think a computational model without write-access to memory can be as powerful as a turing machine
You're pretty retarded if you think that they are less powerful than with. I suspect you've never read a CS book in your life.

>>8205565
>you're pretty retarded if you think a computational model without write-access to memory can be as powerful as a turing machine
Literally what the FUCK is lambda calculus, combinatorial logic, ...!?

>>8205506
Why aren't you Haskell masterrace?

>>8205526
>I don't know what stats is

>>8205591
I don't like parentheses.

>>8205591
>>8205594 isn't me. I don't like the number of operators. Shit looks scary. I might learn it someday. Functional is cool but from my view from afar Haskell seems bloated.

>>8205591
I wish there was some sort of a Haskell* (as in www.fstar-lang.org) already. Full dependent typing (i.e. not just GHC hacks) and type refinements that are actually accessible within the language (i.e. not just hot comments that the compiler itself can't use) are awesome, but I miss type classes (and, well, being able to write anything useful without having to figure out how to import libraries) in F*.

>>8201424
indians are considered bad hires. You do not shit about head hunting...

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>>8201446

>>8205648
All DOOM games are good.

Because it's a popular major these days, meaning it attracts idiots (same can be said for social sciences and, to a lesser degree, biology), I haven't seen too many stupid physics or math majors.

Plus 90% of shit talking on /sci/ is just banter

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>>8201423
>Why are a lot of people on /sci/ looking down on computer science degree?
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1Xdg_pU4iQ&list=PLpGHT1n4-mAvjCKhxwJKLGfo_NDvovmdV&index=3

Because computer scientists are getting all the attention and money with the recent advances in artificial intelligence. In addition, the scientific field of CS is producing the major breakthroughs of this era (e.g. internet, programming languages, artificial intellgence, delf-driving cars, computers). Indeed it is a very exiting time for being a computer scientist. On the other hand, /sci/ is butthurt mainly by two reasons:

- 90% of /sci/ are engineers, they are not scientists. Therefore, they perceive CS students as a threat, since the field is starting to eat real world by automating jobs that engineers typically did.

- /sci/ believes that CS is shit due to the fact that they barely studied in a top tier university. Thus, 80% of /sci/ has a wrong idea of what actually is CS. For instance, consider: >>8202208

>>8205780

tfw I changed my major from CS to CompE because I did not want to get bullied by /sci/. tfw I had to endure more Math compared to a CS. tfw I'll probably get less job opportunities.

>>8205821
>tfw I changed my major from CS to CompE because I did not want to get bullied by /sci/. tfw I had to endure more Math compared to a CS. tfw I'll probably get less job opportunities.


CE is for people who can not do well on math. In addtion, I studied CS in a math department.

>>8201642
So then what's the difference between software engineering and computer engineering. There are universities that have all three.

>>8205922
http://catalog.calpoly.edu/collegesandprograms/collegeofengineering/computerscience/bssoftwareengineering/

http://catalog.calpoly.edu/collegesandprograms/collegeofengineering/computerengineering/bscomputerengineering/

Well, here's the course work in difference and similarities. I'm sure all three degrees will get you the same job.

>>8202321
>you literally don't even know what an engineer is.
According to Google Image Search, he's the guy that drives the train.

>>8202738
>tfw engineers do science to

I don't even know what the hell are you Ameritards doing with your CS programs. Here in my 3rd world country CS students are required to take the same amount of math as engineering plus discrete mathematics for the first one or two years depend on your talent. After that it's all CS, except two courses named "Software Engineering" and "Web programming" (the latter is an elective)

>>8202710
so is memeing

>>8202769
i worked for a township cutting down trees and repaving roads for a summer.

one of the guys who had been there for 25+ years had a big ass house that you would not expect from essentially a construction worker. you will be just fine. we all tend to get caught up in chasing the big $$$ a lot of the time, but we're all gonna make it.

Fuck guys, so let me explain my situation. I got a scholarship to Japan, I am starting language school one year there to learn japanese in april.
After that I'm gonna try for Tokyo University, and probably finish my degree there if not elsewhere.
But I really am having my doubts, I mean I already got the scholarship but I don't know what to do afterwards.
I want to pursue either ME or EE(I really don't know my reasons for choosing these, I want to cry), Math or Physics(I do like both of these for several reasons)
Do you guys have any books or documentaries I should watch on what to choose? I mean I want to work in a field I like but I want to earn a lot of money too. I'm from Paraguay by the way ( a shithole) that's why I aimed for a scholarship and didn't try for america or europe. After Japan I'm trying for a graduate school scholarship on america, but I still don't know which field I like the best!
Any advice?

>>8205780
>90% of /sci/ are engineers
>80% of /sci/

is pulling numbers out of your ass a science

>Why are a lot of people on /sci/ looking down on computer science degree?

Code Monkeys don't need 90% of the "material" in the programs.
Other degrees/majors can do what you do typically in smarter ways, most of the programming languages used at companies will not be the ones you learned.
Jobs are also extremely vulnerable to obsolescence and outsourcing, mostly from dedicated code monkey academies

The future of a CS student is mostly to "build front end user interfaces" for small company social media or to try to work in startups. Neither really requires much of what you learned in the degree and most in fact could have been learned on your own from code academies.

The field is bloated, and CS faculty have got it in their heads that what they teach is somehow not covered in a single week in graduate math courses since the 1970s.

The point is that anyone studying math, physics, engineering, and some biologists will be able to do what you can do anyway (or with a little bit of learning) and have other options should that not work out or have unique insight into certain problems you will not.

>>8201423
I always wondered how is Aero at the top that shit just be much more difficult job market than EE or mech

>>8205609
GHC has full dependent types. Refinement types a shit.

>>8205780

Easily most of those jobs only require code monkey training which you can get with a 2 year degree and an internship instead of 4 years of university.

The market for "AI researchers" is somehow even more oversaturated than CS in general.

>>8205497
You don't need that overpriced book just use online info

Unless it's required get fucked

>>8205526
Thank god my top two choices are Aero and CE

>>8206497
Banzai

>>8206545
>GHC has full dependent types.
Last time I've checked type families weren't first class, for one.

>Refinement types a shit.
Enjoy having to write your own compiler plugins, or failing that, pass around proofs of Peano axioms to do trivial shit like compile time array bounds checking :^)

(I'm not trying here to bash Haskell, seriously. I just think it could be a lot better)

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>>8201423
but god is also unbelievable too
because he doesn't exist.

Why is everyone here so butthurt about CS? You're not giving it credit for the novelty it is in terms of the major and the job market. Full disclosure, I'm a CS major.

First, it's not about who you know, it's about what you know. It's not like finance, where almost anyone could perform competently as a starting analyst at Goldman or blackrock.

Second, the creativity aspect is amazing. Every single class I've taken has had some creative aspect. It was minimal in computer architecture but humongous in other classes. Being able to create stuff immediately is fun and good one's self-esteem. Maybe a math or chemistry gets to do some research with a professor, but classes are still going to be memorization for an exam until you get into much higher level topics.

I'm not saying math and chemistry are bad majors. I'm just pointing out what drew me to CS. Its not just "oh it says science but it's not as tough as actual science." Creativity is given a much bigger space to take up in CS classes, and I enjoy that part.

All that said, yes university is in many ways pointless for CS, but in America you still need a degree (assuming you don't have some kind of startup) unless CS really is your true love in life. I only know one guy like that. Dude was internationally ranked in age of empires and went to college but could've done without it. Just quit ibm to work at a 5 person company with some amazing contracts. Guys 20 years his senior were constantly asking him questions at ibm. He said he left because it was boring even though he worked in research and was constantly attending conferences n shit. Also between jobs he interviewed at Amazon and turned them down because he "thought they were too full of themselves."

This guy chose CS because he could create things quickly and new techniques/APIs/products are always emerging.

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>>8205416
M O N A D S
O
N
A
D
S


et comonads, applicatives, arrows et all

>>8201468
CS requires credits in bio, chem, OR physics.
CE requires physics.

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>>8208393
>engineers

>>8201468
>City College of New York
>not stanford, UCLA, UT austin, UDub
>no a top tier universitiy

Biology in a CS degree?... weird as fuck, nice cherry picking faggot.

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>>8201468
bless this post

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>>8201468
>cuny
>biology in a CS degree
>show a shit institution to mock about a serious scientific field

Keep trying faggot.

>>8208513
City College has strange interdepartmental agreements within the science dept, so for example Physics majors must take Chem/Bio/CS/EAS. It's not ideal but at least you're getting some interdisciplinary education.

>>8208521
NO FAGGOT, FUCK YOU, YOU BELONG TO A SHIT INSTITUTION, PERIOD.

In my university CS is in a math department and I did not took biology or shit like that. On the other hand, I took nearly the same subjects that math students take. Nice cherry picking faggot.

What does /sci/ think of data science? Don't want to go into CS and it end up getting over-saturated.

>>8208526
"Data Science" is a meme term for stuff that computer scientists have been doing over the past years (IA, NLP, ML, DM, KDD). Data Science is for people with a social science background

>>8208538
Okay, what about statistics?

>>8208526
> ask for guidances in a meme thread

>>8208547
Not hiding/ignoring a "meme" thread.

>>8208540
Man I only finished a couple of courses on Coursera and immediately got two job offers from university. Data is new oil, it's everywhere. Sports, finances, politics, you name it. Don't listen to those duches they are just jelly :)

>>8204677
then become the businessman that takes advantage of this saturation

>>8208563
>Coursera
>jelly
Coursera is for people who doesnt know anything about what entails computer science. I am a computer scientist and from the beggining of my major I focused my carrer to KDD (ML, NLP, DM, and "data science"), where I work there's an actuary guy who just took a couple of courses of "data science" in R and he doesnt even know basic shit like parsing an xml, computational complexity, perform a cross validation, or munge pdf text. I also remember when we start using docker and AWS, the guy finally quit the job. For that reason coursera people are considered bad hires.

to even parse an xmlwe are considering fire him

>>8209247
Did you go to uni or did you self study? I'm really interested in machine learning so I'm studying a lot of math. What courses/ books should I read to get there?

>>8209589
>>8209247
Also why do you call it kdd over data mining?

>>8201423
>>8206544
This

>tfw aerospace engineer
>tfw watching all of my more experienced coworkers getting laid off
>mostly because we can't compete with poo in loos price-wise
Also
>tech support at work being replaced with an indian company
>been subcontracting out some of our work to indians

The future is bad bros

>>8201446
CS teaches you to model a computer
CE teaches you to build a computer

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CS is still a great field to be in, but you should be aware of certain realities.

The Silicon Valley image of elite programmers working on really cool projects and "changing the world" is entirely a fabrication by companies to get you to work from them. Sorry, but you probably won't be the next asshole to duck tape together a social media app and make billions. Working at Facebook or Google is not cool anymore, and really it never was.

You will likely be a code monkey, doing "plumbing" code. You will get paid pretty well for it, but it won't be stimulating or interesting. The vast majority of code you will ever write will be boring and mundane. If you find yourself solving an interesting problem, you should probably check yourself because your solution is almost certainly going to be shittier than the open source solutions which already exist.

The hardest parts of your job will be tempering the ridiculous expectations of the non-technical people managing you. Too many people are being driven to tech because of the money, and most of these people without technical knowledge get filtered into management positions of some type.

Indians are shit coders. If you work at a place that is hiring Indians, get the fuck out of there as soon as you can. It's a clear sign that your company doesn't value programmers, and view you as an interchangeable cog to be thrown at problems. There are always a few elite exceptions, but they are of course, exceptions.

Expect to see your female co-workers get ridiculous promotions ahead of you. There's nothing you can do about this. Diversity quotas are real, especially given the male dominated image of the tech industry. The bigger the company you work at, the more common this will be.

If you are smart enough, get into a more research oriented specialization of CS. That's where the opportunity, and more importantly fulfillment, is.

>>8209633
i'm 24 and worked in software since school. Software engineering has become a meme. This guy said it all: FB, GOOG are fads. They are already established, you will do menial shit there unless you can fight your way into a high paying research role (protip you cant because they headhunt from kaggle, etc or you need to slave away at a PhD for years, where you might as well make good money making the next Yo over and over again). This guy's term "plumbing code" is perfect and spot-on

Also ML is a meme, it's the new overfitting. They sidestep the scientific method saying 'my results look good, so trust me' or 'get me more data and hardware, and my overfitting will look even better'.
> autopilot causes death
> 'we're not done tuning yet, this was a great data point'

Startups are where cool stuff could be happening, but it's less than 1% of them because most will fail, and it has become a meme with so many normies spewing buzzwords to keep investors' attention. The people with real ideas can barely get heard. Investors are extremely stingy with handing out money - moreso than a few years ago.

Companies abuse H1B. I worked in a company with many of them, and it was like night and day coming out of school. I barely tried and did extremely well. Had nobody to really look up to.

My female coworker who was hired a year after me was offered 25% higher salary than what I was able to negotiate up to. Fucking bullshit, I won't go deeper into this because I'll be here for an hour.

>>8209862
continued

Sidestory: I was asked to prototype a webpage that uses an API someone else was working on. Presented to management and then I returned to my main team 100%. The guy hired to continue my webpage is having a hard time. He asks me to help him out. I say sure because I wrote all the code, so it's the least I can do for 1 hour a week. Slowly turns to twice a week, 3x/week, everyday. He literally didn't write any code in between me helping. Props to him for easy money, but can you put the pieces together how he got hired? Anyone? I fucked with him for a couple weeks when I realized I was doing his work. One day I stopped helping him saying I have a lot of deadlines to catch. Then he got fired within the month.

This is all I got from my first year of work in SV. It's hard to find a good job worth moving to (I was very comfy here, but slight increase in pay for questionable comfyness wasn't worth it)

>>8209862
ML has it's uses. Only a retard would use ML to fly a plane.

>>8208526
It's a meme but a very lucrative one at that. It mostly attracts stats and applied math graduates who don't know much programming or CS. Back in the day you would have your "data science researchers" clean data, design models, and develop prototypes. Then the project would be handed over to the code monkeys (with no knowledge of the underlying theory) whose job was to reimplement everything in a real programming language.

In response to that shit dynamic there are now a ridiculous number of frameworks that let said "researchers" implement their shit in a simple way (using babby languages like Python and Lua) while having the framework handle all of the nontrivial implementation details (cuda, cudnn, blas, lapack, etc...).

If you want to do data science then focus on stats.

>>8209247
They took the equivalent of an intro course on data science and a workshop on R. Of course they don't know how to do any of that shit. You're idiots for hiring the guy in the first place. The guy had less experience than a freshman university dropout.

MOOCs are currently only full of introductory applied courses. You should only use them to supplement an education, not replace it. That said, MOOCs do have courses on XML parsing (intro topic in database courses), complexity (algorithms courses), web dev courses for dealing with shit like docker and aws, intro ML and intro deep fledging, NLP, and a whole bunch of shit on data mining (and KDD) and "data science" (literally the biggest meme in MOOCs right now), since these are all introductory topics. Munging a PDF is something you just learn when you encounter it.

>>8209633
>most of these people without technical knowledge get filtered into management positions of some type

How would you propose we increase technical literacy in middle-management?

Not trying to shit on you or anything, just curious.

>>8201468
>>8201458
>>8201457
>>8201642
Is a BEng in CS the same as a degree in CE?

>>8205221
"bio" alone is not specific enough to mean anything. Anyway the guy that made this chart probably has Asperger or sth or he wouldn't have spent so much time on it.

>>8210095
nope. you dont build stuff with your hands in computer science

>>8209862
>>8209633
How the fuck do you losers put up with this shit and still find the time to shill CS?

is STEM burning in 2016?

>>8210062
Promote actual engineers to management positions.

Unfortunately its not that simple, as it's usually better to keep your good engineers working as engineers. So the mediocre assholes with a little charisma end up getting the management positions.

I wish I had a good solution but honestly I don't. Doesn't mean I won't complain about it though.

>>8210062
>How would you propose we increase technical literacy in middle-management?

>actually wanting to do this

I can hold my boss hostage for raises and have at least 2 poaching offers a month because nobody really knows what I do.

>double major in EE and CpE

There's a reason engineers are elitist, it feels good being so good

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>love math
>love computers
>can't decide between CS or Math Degree

>>8210800
Do both. Higher level CS has a lot of mathematical concepts behind it, even if you never directly see it.

What do you guys think about CIS?

>>8210800

Do math, take a few courses in computer science possibly. Don't double major that is a waste of god damn time and get involved with research or internships.

No one will give a shit if you don't technically have a CS degree if you have some credentials because actually knowing some real fucking math will put you miles ahead of code monkeys.

>>8201423
The short explanation is that Ameriburger universities have been mislabelling their Java software engineering courses as CS

>>8210800
chemfag here, I'd choose math

>>8201423
which is best engineering field for anti social standalone kinda guys? /adv/ sucks

>>8201423
Smart people in software engineering hate their job, because they have to dumb down their code to conform to company policy and so that others can try to understand the code without having their brain explode. Sorry, but software engineering kind of sucks.

>>8211676
EE

>>8202208
Computer science is applied Mathematics, and it is about algorithms. Building computers is not computer science.
https://youtu.be/zQLUPjefuWA

>>8201424
It's hard to find someone that's competent from Western countries. Outsourcing in this field is a bad move buddy.

>>8211676
CE or EE

>>8202691
same thing, they're both scientists that work with computers

What's the Cybersec industry like? Is there anything I should pick up to suppliment it?

>>8211727
hey thanks.

since the thread is almost dead I have one more shameful question I'm starting school again in Aug. I have only taken college alg and I did really well. That was 2 years ago. My school has the option of taking trig and pre calculus separate or I have the option of jumping into the triple threat Trig/precalc/alg class to escalate my progression into calc 1. What is wise course of action?

>>8211861

precalc/trig together shouldn't be difficult and it will save you time

>>8211751
do you even science bro

>>8211932
As a scientist, I can confirm that anyone who does science would never say "do you even science bro".

>>8211946
Still a student, wait for me man

>>8211683
You just described my life until last year.
I now work in financial software, where good code is not only appreciated but required. We do have a hard time hiring though... Seems like any yahoo who copy pasted code from stack overflow for three years now call themself a "senior".

>>8201423
Art should be god tier 2bh

>>8211861
its been 2 years. i would take them separately are trig is a lot harder than algebra

>>8209247
I went to the university and studied CS, I am focused in NLP & ML (I have three papers in such field). I took several courses at my university and took classes with professor's bishop book, prof han's book, elements of statistical learning, and the weka book... I recommend you to go to your local department of computer science if you are interested in machine learning and NLP.
>>8209862
>My female coworker who was hired a year after me was offered 25% higher salary than what I was able to negotiate up to. Fucking bullshit, I won't go deeper into this because I'll be here for an hour.

This is shocking thruth, because of "huuurr dhuurrr muh feminism and equal opportunities" women who has less skills are getting much more income. The other day I got a job offer and despite I was ell qualified, the HR guy told me that I was male and for politics of "social inclusion" I was not qualified, since they were looking for a female candidate.

>>8209601
>Also why do you call it kdd over data mining?
Because KDD is the correct term for "data mining" meme.

>>8212014
>professor's bishop book
http://www.springer.com/us/book/9780387310732

>prof han's book
>han
>one of the most common names out there

>elements of statistical learning
https://web.stanford.edu/~hastie/local.ftp/Springer/OLD/ESLII_print4.pdf
>weka book
ftp://ftp.ingv.it/pub/manuela.sbarra/Data%20Mining%20Practical%20Machine%20Learning%20Tools%20and%20Techniques%20-%20WEKA.pdf

No deep learning? What book did you use for convex analysis?

>>8201495
Caring about any of those things you listed makes you a shit tier pleb. kys.

>>8211956
God Tier artists are higher than god tier engineers, and most mathematicians, physicists, etc. for sure. But almost none of them were art majors.

>>8211751
>IT
>scientist
kek of the day

>>8201678
I hear a lot of stories about how Indian code always has to be fixed by native workers, which makes me wonder why tech companies bother with cheap Indian coders in the first place.

>>8212107
working in industry makes you a pleb by definition.

>>8212113
god tier engineers are actually just god tier artists working in a different medium. engineering is fast and loose enough at times to totally be an art form. our current model of fluid dynamics is a good example.

>>8212014
Should I bother with a CS degree or just do a math degree? At my school they make you take a lot of bs like "software engineering" , an "applied technology" so either web dev or Android or iOS, then there's an OOP class. Algo and DS is split up into the courses and doesn't cover much.

>>8212376
Do the math degree.

>>8212379
I'm double major at the moment wondering if I should drop cs and just do cs courses that are useful

>>8205780
The age of the engineer is over, the time of the programmer has come

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>tfw 25 year old pleb oilfield labourer and want to go to university for CS

Is it even possible? I feel as if most people in CS are prodigies who've been programming since age 9 and I won't stand a chance. I already know some C and PLC programming and think it's cool, I don't want to die as a pleb labourer.

>>8212410
do it bro. start at a CC. i have some 30 and 40 year olds in my CS class. youre never too old to learn. dont compare yourself to other people or youll fail before you even try

>>8205780
> artificial intelligence
Bahaha. Unless you mean the very narrow field of data mining (which generates tons of CS jobs), ai as a field is stagnant as fuck.

t. machine vision researcher

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>>8212431
>machine vision researcher
I fell for the same meme and now I want to kill myself

>>8205536
variable =+ 5 ...theres always a better way.

>>8212500
+=

>>8201423
>tfw great tier

What can an associate's degree in music get me?

>>8201423
Medicine isn't god-tier. It's not even science.

>>8212757
laid

>>8205416
>take the value at the address contained in variable
>pass it as an operand, along with the value 5, to the addition operation
>store the sum at the address contained by variable

How does this not make sense to you?
I have don't have a CS, STEM or engineering degree. Maybe I'm so stupid that stupidity makes sense? Or maybe you just don't know how 'variable = variable + 5' works at a lower level. Taking a class on assembly language should fix you right up though, not to worry

>>8212410
I started learning at about 24 y/o at a local CC. I', 27 now and I teach people how to program in a classroom with a whiteboard n' shit. It's great.

Just picked up a book on graph theory and another on number theory from amazon for $4 each because pajeet

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Quick question not relating to thread overall but to OPs image, if I major in Psych and minor in Bio where would that land me on the chart? Would it be better for me to minor in Maths+statistics? Pic-unrelated

>>8213357
>grad school
i would say go for applied math. the minor isnt even necessary

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>>8211751
I feel like /b/ might be more your speed.

>>8208513
>UDub
>top tier

Graduate for sure.
UG not a chance in hell you get a good education unless you are DA to your major which is basically a crapshoot unless you are a black transgender omnisexual fox-kin that identifies as female.
I go here.

>>8211540
Lmao i got to Udub and this is true unfortunately

>>8212767
Hello mckay

I'm going into my second year of CS and I want off the meme ride.


Should I do CE or EE instead?
[spoiler]
The only thing I've ever enjoyed in the slightest was earth science but I don't know if geology is a meme degree or not.
[/spoiler]

>>8201458

This is fair.

IMO, going into undergrad as a CS major has become more of a meme ("I want to make video games!") in the past several years. It's analogous to all of the "pre-med" majors who start college every year.

>>8214822
i did geology,
Now I am doing aPhD in something like palaeontology with a bit of computer vsions and hopefully machine learning. b

But i am in a shit country and the funding is bad so I will most likely not get into the machine learning.

I would say do what interests you, there are so many things that are interesting though.

So ask yourself what you want to do to the world. What role do you want to play?

Do you want to make it a better place?
Do you want to make other people do things?
Do you want to have a steady job and settle down?
Do you want to explore the world?
These are the things you need to ask yourself.

I am afraid that I have spent nearly 10 years studying stuff I am interested in, only to reallise most of the people are cunts that don't care about the suffering going on in the world around them.

I feel like our mental capacity to solve problems should be applied to world problems.

Fuck I don't know anymore, I'm lecturing for now to make some money.

I would love to get into deep learning.

i would like to applied deep learnging to academic journals, abstract meaning and speed up the research process.

Fuck no matter what you do, know statistics, data mining.

Machine learning and Deep Learning look very promising.

That all considered I have always believed that fusion power is the only solution to humanities infinite greed.

We need more people in social sciences, we need these shit teir things to become god teir, but that is not going to hppen if smart people keep trying to be smart.

If you interested in complex problems then study economics, but try to do that in post grad after getting a strong background in com sci and stats so you can use big data to solve these big data problems.
Economics in 50 years time must not be anithing like it is today if humanity is going to survive
I couldnt give a fuck about spelling, you are all smart and can figure out wha tI mean. my fingers are not working properly.

we've been saying computers are the wave of the future for over

>>8211683

Why would you overly complicate your code if the simpler code does the same thing? That's retarded.

>>8215995
Yeah. Google should go back to doing linear searches on its database.

>>8216001

Can you read? I said "if it does the exact same thing". If the more complicated code actually improves the program significantly, then it should be used. Complicating your code solely to rub your ego is retarded.

>>8216007
actually the software industry maintainability is more important than efficiency.
ie. instead of a one liner bit shift that run x20 faster you would have to rewrite your code so that even fucking retards are able to understand.

>name of the bachelor program is "Computer Science and Software Engineering"
>It's actually just a Computer Science degree

why is this allowed?

>>8216024
Don't forget them sweet lambdas.

"Everyone knows that debugging is twice as hard as writing a program in the first place. So if you're as clever as you can be when you write it, how will you ever debug it?" -- Elements of Programming Style

>Getting a degree
Haha, enjoy your debt, nerd.

>>8216030
To sell the program to young memers who want to work at those big IT companies

>>8216165
>not having a college degree
Enjoy your Walmart and Starbucks jobs, nerd.

>>8216275
>Job
TURBONERD

>>8202477
Considering everyone is playing pokemon go on work hours I doubt they will slack everyone being unproductive.

>>8215995
Of course if both codes do the exact same thing you're right.
But that's not what usually happens.

Too often some managers asked me to code feature X, but ignoring what it takes to make reliable software, also forbade me to do anything but code as fast as possible until it seems to work, i.e.: I run the program and see that it works with one or two on the fly test cases I think I design in my mind when I actually just do exactly what I was imagining when writing the code. Of course it works.

Duh.

That's how you end up with spaghetti code, ridden with duplicated bugs, until even rushing to code a new feature takes eons because nobody understands how anything works. Sometimes the customers are OK with it, sometimes you just lose them or keep them with horrible promises that future features will be delivered on time, word.

When you want reliable software, you need to develop some tests. In order to code tests, your code must be testable, i.e.: clean interfaces. And your tests must cover not only the normal flow when everything works, but also the error cases. It takes time, and it changes the way you code.

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> Putting engineering above physics

> Putting construction worker above architecture

Looks like someone couldn't handle actually doing something. I look forward to being your boss.

I just want to become a better programmeror software engineer and make cool stuff without knowing the hardware,what would help me more between Math,CS,CE or EE?

>>8216367
ECE, Math >>> Shit >>> CS

Cs majors have higher unemployment rates than social science and art graduates in the UK.

>>8216367
Math with a decent amount of high level CS courses.

>>8206497
You already know the answer to what you want to do deep down and haven't realized it yet anon

>>8216337
Test driven development is placebo tier garbage for retards who can't into math.

>>8216367
>without knowing the hardware
In that case go for CS. If you're willing to learn the math in order to do well in your theoretical CS courses and have an edge over your fellow classmates, go with Math as well.

>>8205821

Weird, CS is more math courses than CE/EE here, since they have to take more discrete math than the CEs do. (on top of the calc, linear alg, diff eq, etc that CE/EE do)

Although not that either are very much compared to a math degree.

>>8210800

Do both. There's a huge overlap if you're interested in things like graph theory, combinatorics, etc.

>>8216397

And UK CS programs barely have any math or heavy algorithms at all, or at least all the ones I've seen were like that compared to American or Canadian ones.

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>>8217208
>since they have to take more discrete math

That's actually an insult to their intelligence

>>8217208
My university has a lot more math than that in CS. Two courses in computability theory (second one covers recursive function theory, arithmetic hierarchy, and a bunch of different models of computation), a category theory course, a type theory course, two complexity courses, and a bunch of courses in the math department.

>>8217248
>Two courses in computability theory (second one covers recursive function theory, arithmetic hierarchy, and a bunch of different models of computation), a category theory course, a type theory course, two complexity courses

Those aren't math courses. Otherwise you may as well call any physics course or EE course a math course too.

>>8217284
They are math. Especially category theory, type theory, and computability. I'm a pure math student and these are more pure math than analysis.

Who bumps these kind of threads?

I'm nearly done with my SE degree, although for all of my elective subjects I chose CE-based topics, so my degree is nearly half SE and half CE. I did some earlier EE subjects as well.

This thread (and the whole idea of working on 'plumbing' code, as it has been called) is scaring me a little too much for my liking. Would it be better to try and aim for a more CE oriented position? I really like programming, but most of my programming experience has been independent, self-motivated work rather than at a company. I do have 500 hours of internship experience though, which I enjoyed when I was working with another person (the first 300 hours) but not as much so after that, which was unusual for me.

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>>8201423
How are the prospects for genetics research?

>>8217238

Yeah, because rigourously proving things in a discrete math course is so much easier than plug n chug solving D.E.s or integrating things.

I really wish this book didn't become a meme.

>>8204668
kek

>>8205416
This.

>>8218319
>because rigourously proving things

The proofs in discrete math consist of the most trivial corollaries to the basic definitions. You have to be brain dead to struggle with any of them.

>Hurr durr I proved that the inverses in a group are unique! This is such advanced mathematics!!

>>8216594
Isn't test driven dev when you start by coding the tests, before the actual code ? I don't know about that, I usually write the tests at the same time.

Maybe you can blindly write perfect code ? Good for you, but up to now, all the "geniuses" I've met who had that pretence made rotten buggy programs, if not at first when it's demo time, but over time, in actual conditions.

>>8209633
Underrated

>>8209868
Man, that sucks.

What is better: Bachelor Physics with masters/doctorate in astronomy or go straight for bachelor in Astronomy?

>>8218786
They're nearly the same. Do a bachelor in physics with a minor in astronomy.

>>8218786
I'd go straight to an Astronomy Bachelor.

>>8218786
I'm wondering what exactly would be the differences between studying Astronomy or Physics in the US?
I'm studying Astronomy in Argentina but we don't have Bachelor or Masters here, just "Licenciate" which would last 5 years and be equivalent to Bachelor+Masters.

>>8218851
>>8218852
fug

>>8218863
I'm from Brazil
The astronomy Bachelor here (USP, there is another in Rio too, but fuck Rio) is fairly new (2009)
By the curriculum of these two courses, they are very similar if you choose the correct electives in the Physics degree.

>>8218905
>I'm from Brazil
Just

>>8218915
Eat a dick racist faggot

I'm in CS right now but I want to do something else since I don't really like CS, I just did it because I didn't know what to do.


I sort of want to do Geology since that's the only thing I have even the slightest interest in but everywhere I look says you'll never find a job and you'll die poor.

>>8218924
WHAT!? geo pays man. As a person who has a masters and works in industry I can say there are more jobs than ppl to fill them

>>8218930
I mostly got that idea from some reddit when I was googling shit about geology and the careers you can get, it was like /r/geologycareers.

Every single post on there asking about geology is "don't do it it's shit you'll get laid off when the industry goes bad every few years, just do CS instead"

>>8202514
> Implying the worth of a job is based on its difficulty, rather than the value of the service it provides

Not saying anything besides engineering is garbage. We need doctors and lawyers, too. But 'abstract thinking majors' are very much a luxury investment.

Am an EE but why is it "unbelievable" tier

If you have an anxiety problem avoid Engineering like the plague

I learned while its too late

>>8218955
Why?

I wish that i didn't go to university in the first place and just went to a trade school when I got out of high school.

>>8218957
Would you find it fun worrying you are designing something correct no matter how many times you double check? Do you find it fun getting frequent flash back feelings of something you felt you did incorrect and hurrying to check back on your work? Do you enjoy worrying about budget/schedule pressure everything you do?

I can't wait to pay off my school loans ASAP and jump ship, this isn't for me

>>8201423
Why is Film Arts, History, Political Science, Philosophy, Psychology, Dance, and Geography in the Shit Tier?

These fields still play an important part in shaping human social society and two of them (Film Arts and Dance) can lead someone to make millions.

>>8218950
>Am an EE

Prove it.

>>8218976
>do complex matlab motor modeling and AC motor controls while in school
>currently sit in an office using mainly google and the NEC

Power systems :)

>>8218981
I don't believe you.

>>8201423
how about solving that halting problem boys? :)

>>8218997
What more do you want
>do transistor bias shit in school
>now all I do is mainly voltage drop

>>8218936
I'm familiar with the subreddit. People do take hits when markets dive, but don't let those voices solely contribute to your view of the geojob market. I'd say do it if you want to, and you'll be fine when it comes time to look for a job

>>8218723
There are another approaches to programming that use mathematical proofs or other technical methods to verify that your code is bug free. Unlike using tests, these methods will actually verify the code instead of just letting you convince yourself it is bug free on the basis that you've thought of everything in your tests.

Tests are a placebo in the sense that they can only be used to verify that a piece of code contains a bug. They cannot be used to verify if that piece of code is bug free. So at best you can show that you haven't discovered any bugs yet.

>>8219005
Do you think that getting a masters is necessary?

What are your specific degrees in?

Do you have a concentration?

What job do you currently have?

how is microbiology under biology?

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>>8218921
Since when is being a monkey a race?

>>8201423

mfw getting an EE degree allows you to be a cubicle monkey drawing circuit diagrams yet somehow gets you in "unbelievable tier," but learning about the fundamental inter-workings of the universe with astrophysics/physics is a tier lower.

>>8219075
I'm from the state with the US flag

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>mfw started as cs major
>mfw switch major to finance with a minor in French
>had tons of fun in college since classes weren't as hard as CS
>mfw making fukin bank and doing something enjoyable
>mfw I didn't fall for the stem meme

Thank you, Jesus

>>8201423
what about computer engineering?

>>8219038
Because these "infographics" are written by and created for 18 year olds trying to justify their intended major even though they've yet to take a class that isn't a prereq/gen ed requirement.

>>8205526
meme harder

>>8219211
>CS classes
>Hard

top kek

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>>8218319
>rigourously proving things
>discrete math

>>8219075
Are we in /int/?

>>8219322
but seriously, I feel like my CS classes are a good magnitude below the classes my friends in physics are doing. math is somewhere in the middle, i've taken a few upper div math courses.

is cs just a meme subject or is my school just catering to get rich quick normies?

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>>8219407

I've looked at dozens of schools CS programs and they all are quite weak. CS hasn't been difficult for over 40 years and gets worse with every passing decade.

>>8219414
what about mit and cmu? when I went to admit day weekend at cmu they guy was like "we revamped the entire curriculum. you're going to be doing hoare logic proofs in your first semester. second semester you'll be analyzing the complexity of van emde boas trees. this major will fuck you up."

but then they wanted 65k/year so I went to berkeley instead where we do baby cs

>>8219033
I'd say go for the masters. I have a BS and MS in geo. I did an igneous geochem project in undergrad, crystallography for my masters thesis, and took a lot of geophys classes. I now work as a geophys for O&G company and make rly good money

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I'm a Chem major who just switched to Engineering. The main reason behind this is because I want to follow in my fathers footsteps.My father is an engineer who went from a poor man making 25k a year to over 110k a year (I think its important to point out that I live in NYC). I was thinking I can get into the MTA or I can find some other job that provides stability and a chance to climb upward the financial latter.

Can someone tell me I'm making the right choice please?

Can someone tell me I didn't fall for a meme?

Can someone tell me I'm not going to be a bum asking others for money in the streets?

Can someone tell me everything's going to be okay? :'(

>>8220156
Unless you barely started the chem major at the point you switched, or unless you switched to chem engineering, you probably fell for a meme.

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>>8208509

>>8219023
Can't disagree with anything you say, except that placebo is a bit misleading, since tests verify, as you put, that no bug has been found yet.

However, how costly proving a program is ? I've always been told it takes a huge effort. I've once used a software called polyspace to validate a code (look it up, I can't provide a better explanation than the official website). I don't even think it proves you algorithm is right, only that your implementation does not fail. At the time it took days of computations to validate one C source file (that was 2011).

I tend to think that there's a possible compromise between "write code that works" and "formally prove your code". It all depends of your software purpose of course: could humans be killed if it fail ? Then proof. Is time-to-market important and human safety not at risk ? Then test it, if you don't want your software to be thrown out or hated by its users.

>>8219414
Bullshit. If you go to shit universities like >>8208519, obviously CS ain't hard. Keep trying faggot, keep trying your cherry picking bullshit.

>>8220411
The placebo is that test people are convinced that their tests actually give them some level of guarantee over code quality.

You're right though that proof methods aren't currently as practical as proponents would like you to believe (note: I am not saying that it isn't used heavily in some industries).

My understanding is that the long term plan is to develop a language with a very powerful type system so that the program can actually be verified by the type checker (it will fail to compile if the program has a bug). I'll borrow an explanation from another anon:

Suppose you need to write a program that takes an integer, n, as input and provides as output a list of all the prime factors of n.
In Haskell you can define your function:
primify :: Int -> [Int]
(insert implementation details here)
When you go to compile your code the type checker will look at the implementation and verify that it indeed takes an integer as input and provides a list of integers as output (and it will fail to compile otherwise).
In a future language you would actually be able to encode the logic of what you want to do directly into the type of primify and this way the type checker would actually verify that the code was indeed bug free.

>>8201423
It always triggers me that geophysics is listed twice in two separate tiers, and that there is no Geo-microbiology.

>>8221420
Even at good universities, CS is a joke. Just because you're an idiot that found it hard doesn't make it comparable to the rest of STEM.

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>>8205780
>(you)

>>8216165
>>8216275
>mfw collegue is free in my country
>mfw when you don't even need it for a job as a software engineer, they are needed so desperately and there are so few, that they hire mere technicians or even people that can just prove their skills if self-taught

not even community collegue, its actually above private universities here

>why people go to private there then?

Because its easier and very hand holding

CS has become a, and i hate using the word, "meme degree"
At my university CS become capped a few years ago, so all the wannabe programmers who couldn't get into the CS program switched into the math-cs program instead which is under the math department...

the problem is that now because of this ALL majors in the math department are capped due to the mass influx of CS rejects switching into math-cs which fucks over all the students that wanted to major in math

...and they're all so fucking smug, talking about how much they "will" be making once they graduate

>>8222956
This makes me mad.

>>8222956
Fucking shit that sounds awful.

Here we have a really small math department, even introductory classes don't have more than 20 students in them and I would not have it any other fucking way.

CS people are a cancer and if the cancer ever spreads to my place you know I am going all Elliot Rodgers on those motherfuckers.

I majored in pure mathematics, worked in industry as a non-programmer a few years, gotten interested in CS and taking classes part-time as I prep for PhD studies-- I don't really like to code as much as I like proving theorems and thinking about abstract mathematical concepts.

What I will say is I am highly interested in mathematical applications to CS, but I am more of a mathematician than a Computer Scientist.

I am extremely interested in algebra, logic and category theory but find most software engineers I come across have little to no knowledge in those domains and don't really like math. So, I don't feel like I fit in well with the traditional CS type.

What areas of CS should I look into? I'm not interested in meme ML/Stats either.

Like I mentioned, I like algebra, logic etc.

>>8223003
>worked in industry as a non-programmer

I am pretty sure that non-programmer is not a career.

Anyways, you should look into the good side of CS and with that I mean 'Computational Science' and 'Computational Mathematics'.

That is a growing field and it is so broad that any kind of technique could prove useful when looking for breakthroughs in optimizing the kind of algorithms that pop up in this field.

Don't quote me on this but that is probably the place you will find the least computer science majors.

>>8223030
What kind of problems do computational mathematics solve? I am interested in finding a research area to focus on in grad school. By "non-programmer", I meant I work in a tech company doing something unrelated to programming. Probably one of the only people on my team to not be a coder, although I spent this summer learning coding, algorithms etc.

>>8201468
>Comp Eng requires more math

>>8217208
>Comp Sci requires more math

I'm getting mixed messages here.

>>8222993
I remember we had CS students in our 1st year vector spaces course, but after that course the class sizes mostly hovered around 10 students who were all dedicated to math. Aside from the combinatorics class that is, which was infamous among CS students for being "the hardest class ever."

>>8223003
>I'm not interested in meme ML/Stats either.
Why? and why are you calling it meme

I'm about to graduate with a degree in Criminal Justice. don't know what to do though. I also want to get something in film.

>>8223003
Well are you dealing with software engineering or computer science? The issue with "computer science" in college is that there are many people who are more interested in it as building and creating, rather than dealing with theory. That said, if you want to deal with much more theory, it's definitely possible. I know that you said that you didn't want ML, but ML really is the big topic right now, and it can definitely be learned in a very theoretical manner(i'm not talking about regression or neural networks). Back when I was visiting universities, I met with a theoretical mathematician, working in the math department, but he was doing theoretical machine learning. And he affirmed to me that what he was doing really was mathematics, meaning proof based mathematics.

Another topic is also computational topology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computational_topology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_homology

>>8223035
There's a few things to say here. In reality, the amount of "mathematics" that a CS vs CE major does really depends on the school. Each school has it's own curriculum. Additionally, "math" is not really defined well. I'm pretty sure a CS major would say that math is calculus, and linear algebra, and not the proof based mathematics, but some people might actually mean math as in proofs.

>>8223034
>What kind of problems do computational mathematics solve?

In general computational mathematics has to do with numerical methods and algorithms. However, in industry computational mathematics pretty much means (numerical) simulations, data analysis and optimization.

Maybe this quotes from wikipedia explain it best:

>The field is different from theory and laboratory experiment which are the traditional forms of science and engineering. The scientific computing approach is to gain understanding, mainly through the analysis of mathematical models implemented on computers.

If you look for job postings in aerospace engineering companies (for example) you'll see that they are hiring math, physics, engineering and CS majors specifically for the task of constructing such simulations.

>>8223082
ML != data science though

>>8223039
>Why? and why are you calling it meme

I think my opinion of the field has been polluted due to my company's "boot camp" approach to data science. They have their own internal training program to build up data scientist and in its early stages I was not too impressed with what I saw (mainly project managers using buzwords and having no real "data science" or "mathematical" skill sets). I believe this may have changed but I have doubts how much a PM will learn within such a short amount of time. It's one of those buzzword heavy fields where my company is interested in customer outcomes and how data driven decisions will affect the company and bring in revenue. The whole thing is built around applicability, outcomes and all that jazz. I feel like theory is cast to the side and seen as unimportant. They warn against innovating just to innovate.

>>8223050
Thanks, I had no idea how rich the field actually is. I'll look into it. In my job I do 0 CS and very little "real" math. I'm studying furiously on the side and prepping for a PhD in CS, but I really feel more like a mathematician. I'll take a good look at the info you provided.

>>8223084
I edited my post a little for grammar. I assumed ML was a subset of data science. I'll look into ML.

>>8223095
>I assumed ML was a subset of data science
Oh dear. Maybe take a look at http://www.arxiv-sanity.com/ if you're interested in the current ML literature

>>8223096
>http://www.arxiv-sanity.com/

Thanks. What math background should I start with to get into ML?

>>8223104
Calculus, linear algebra, probability and statistics

>>8223108
Thanks. Last question for now, any recommended MOOCs? I can focus a lot of time for next few short weeks before semester starts.

>>8223112
People typically start with Machine Learning by Andrew Ng on Coursera but it's not the most mathematically rigorous introduction (he has a more rigorous version on YT back when he was teaching at Stanford, but it's not really MOOC format). A more interesting one may be http://cs231n.stanford.edu/ but you need to find the videos (maybe check https://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/4hqwza/andrej_karpathy_forced_to_take_down_stanford/ ) Also not sure if it's the best introductory course cause it assumes some prior basic ML knowledge

>>8223117
Thanks, I'll check his videos out in further detail. I remember getting to him doing something with gradient descent and the derivation with the chain rule or something before I got bored of it and quit watching. I'll focus on it more closely and check out the more advanced videos.

>>8223133
Yeah you'll see a lot of optimization and variations of SGD in intro courses. I heard some good things about Hinton's Neural Networks MOOC too but haven't tried it, though I assume it's introductory as well. You could also just read Murphy's machine learning book or maybe Goodfellow's deep learning book.

>>8223147
Thanks for the helpful resources. I'll pick up a few of those books and fill in the gaps as I go. All of it sounds very interesting.

>>8218714
>>8219381

Spotted the sophomore. If you think discrete math isn't a challenging field then you've obviously never done anything beyond a 1st year intro course.

>>8223815
>If you think discrete math isn't a challenging field then you've obviously never done anything beyond a 1st year intro course.

Listen fuckhead, what the fuck do you think a CS class on discrete math is if not a fucking 1st year intro course.

God damn some people are retarded.

>>8223864

Yes, and the comparison was to 1st and 2nd year calculus/diff eq/etc courses, which are the other math courses that CS/Engineering take.

All this shit about Discrete Maths its funny, I'm about to pick it over Calculus I for the coming semester, I just feel it will be easier and also it unlocks more programming courses which is the field in which I'm working now.

Calculus unlocks other stuff like computer architecture, advanced networking and operating systems, still not sure of the relation though.

My major is CS+SE.

>>8224211
>I just feel it will be easier and also it unlocks more programming courses which is the field in which I'm working now.
And how is this relevant to anyone who's not studying where you are?

>>8224228
I just wonder if this is standard or just here.

>>8201423
What makes computer engineering unbelievable tier?

>>8221433
It's depressing that you feel the need to explain what strong typing and static verification are all about. But you're probably right: most of the trending languages attempt to hide the types from the developers.

I work daily with C++, for performance reasons, and I try my best to leverage its features for compile time checks. A compilation error is so much easier to catch and fix! You don't even have to compile anything, since most editors will hilight the problematic code for you.

>>8222956
UC Socially Dead

Physics undergrad who doesn't want to spend 5 years in grad school here. Would it be worth it to take a master's in CS instead? I've taken the basic programming courses and have enjoyed it more than my other courses. A CS minor is within reach, but don't want to major in CS because I'm in too deep with physics + I want to keep learning about physics too.

>>8224211

Why aren't you taking both in your first semester? You're gonna be behind in your math if you take calc later. And depending on your uni you'll need the calc for a numerical analysis or similar class. Calc I is definitely easier than discrete though, but both are pretty basic. (assuming you mean a 1st year intro discrete class)

>>8222956

Could you tell me in which university do you study?.

>>8224726
Look up some Master's in CS programs. You need to make sure you have the requirements before you can even apply.(Object-oriented programming, data structures, and algorithms) Also, Master's are usually paid for, so you need to find a way to fund it.

>>8224460
Party at blacks, you in?

What's a good minor to pair with computer science. I was thinking biology or finance.

>>8226014
math

>>8225997
no thanks im mexican

>>8226014
math or physics