What went wrong?

>>8148194
You know that Muslims became extremely anti-Western, and anti-
science after the invasion of Palestine, and even more after the Irak intervention by the USA.

>>8148209
Hmm didn't think about it

I've been doing some research, it seems there were always anti-science extremists, even during the time of Islam's pro-science age. These people were mostly ignored and unheard of, but when Baghdad got sacked by Mongols, and libraries were burnt and scientists were slaughtered, these people came out and went "See, this is God's punishment for studying science, instead of praying and worshipping him"
Then when the exact same thing happened in Cordoba, this further consolidated the anti-science position.

>>8148215
Intresting, I will try to find some information about the events you talk about. But i think there is another explanation : "Islam's pro-science age" took place at a moment where Western Science was almost non existent, due to the catholics censoring everything which wasn't in accordance with the Bible. So the Muslim scientists of this period (XIe to XIVe) are better known that those of other periods.Even tho there has been Muslim scientists at any period. But I really think that the fact that anti-science is so importanat in Islam is something very recent.

>>8148194
In the early days of Islam the middle East was one of the main driving forces in scientific advancement. Hell, Islam used to be largely secular (from what I hear) as well. The Americans revived the dying sect of Islam known as salafi jihadism during the cold war in the form of the mujahedeen to fight the Soviets for them. This backfired on them when Osama bin Laden, a man they once called a freedom fighting hero, and receiving formal combat training with the CIA, got pissed off at them for not getting the fuck out of the middle East once the Soviets left and declared the west his enemy. The mujahedeen broke up into the Taliban and al Qa'ida, al Qa'ida went on to fight the Americans and Osama lead them in this charge. Al Qa'ida has since splintered off into smaller groups like Isis.
>Tl;dr the Americans are responsible for radical Islam and continue to financially prop up Saudi Arabia, a salafi jihadist nation who spreads their ideology prolifically

They ran out of literate peoples to loot and pass off spoils as their own

It is a we wuz complex

>>8148288
OP isn't talking about the past 50 years moron.

>>8148298
>, what the fuck happened? They are completely horseshit when it comes to science now. Most of them are anti-science. How did they fuck up so badly?
Except he literally asked about modern islam

>>8148298
If he is asking why Islam is now anti-science , he is asking a question which must be answered with modern history.

>>8148312
islam is not anti-science, it has never been, and never will be.
I don't know where the fuck this misconception comes from though.

Most of the pioneers from the Islamic Golden Age were heretics left over from the previous era. Few of them were actually Muslims.

>>8148336
>still beheading people
>still punishing women for not wearing the right clothes
>kill people who don't believe in there stupid ass religion.
>modern ideas are rejected as vile heresy

>>8148336
ISIS, boko haram and the taliban literally bomb secular schools.

>>8148350
3/4 of those are savagery which is tangential to science. and if you're implying religion in general is anti-science, i'd tend to agree but many big names in science in the past were religious.

>>8148336
I'm not saying that every single muslim is anti-science, i'm sayng that the religion is now can now be prone to xenophoby and obscurantism.

>>8148353
They were introducing feminism to women it was self preservation.

>>8148357
kek

>>8148355
Science contradicts the very nature of any religion. An religion is defined as an bunch of affirmations that are unverifiabale and irrefutable. you don't need me to give you examples.On the other side, a scientific wording has to be provable for it to be scientific.

>>8148358

Not kek. Their countries don't have all the wealth surplus (capital, institutions, industry) that the West made before and allows it to survive (at least for a while) despite the social decay it has now.

>>8148371
i did say i'd tend to agree, but again, science was for a long time done mostly by people of faith, so a very large number of people would disagree

>>8148371
>On the other side, a scientific wording has to be provable for it to be scientific.

You mean falsifiable.

You can only prove things in math. In science you just can made conjectures and contrast them with observations. You cant' prove shit.

>>8148378
yes, provable wasn't really the appropriate word, I think trere was a guy that defined a scientific wording as refutable. he's named Karl Popper.

>>8148375
I'd be glad to hear their arguments.

>>8148350
irrelevant
>>8148353
and? How does that relate to science? terrorists gonna terrorize. Even the most prolific terrorist groups in the US (like earth liberation front) sets fire to colleges. I don't hear you whining about atheists being anti-science.

>>8148356
meh
only because of what you see in the news, while everybody else gets along just fine

>>8148371
science is of a different nature than religion.
islam doesn't tell you how photons travel. You won't find navier-stokes on the side-notes as an undeniable truth. It's about how to behave with god and with others.
You speak like you're a scientist who cares about verifiable affirmations, but you can't even verify yours.

>>8148194
>"Ibn al-Haytham was the first person ever to set down the rules of science."
>and if Muslims ... were like this in the early years of Islam, what the fuck happened?

>this guy's incredibly remarkable
>assuming he's typical...

fullretard.jpg

>>8148194
Read about Avicenna man.
They really were kangs n shiet.

>>8148375
>science was for a long time done mostly by people of faith,

For most of human history, declaring yourself an atheist, or even agnostic would result in punishment ranging from shunning to death.

Are you SURE these are people of actual faith?

>>8148409
yes

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>>8148411
>yes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

>>8148409
>Are you SURE these are people of actual faith?
>>8148411
>yes

"The world is divided into men who have wit and no religion and men who have religion and no wit." - AlHazen Ibn Al-Hatham

>>8148395
well, first of all, "boko haram" means forbidden book, so if it's not against knowledge I don't now what it is.
Also, religion and science contradicts each others, so a comparison beetween the two is actually relevant.
A scientific theory mustn't contradicts itself, but a holy book contradicts itself. for eample, by reading the Bible, you can be told "you shall not kill" and (Luke 19:27) "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.'

>>8148194
Every dog has it's day. Greece is no longer a world leader in science is it?

I was just reading about Einstein (Albert Einstein). From almost every source I've read from, people agree that despite being virtually unknown in the modern East, he was an extremely important figure in the history and philosophy of science, as his theories in gravity were essentially the first step in the development of what would one day be called relativity.
Black science man despite being really critical to religion (including Judaism), he admits that "Albert Einstein was the first person ever to set down the rules of spacetime."

Einstein's key ideology was that God does not play dice with the universe.
He is thus an excellent counterexample to the idea that religious belief necessarily stifles scientific thought

My question is, why didn't we learn more about this, and if Jews (this guys was a devout Jew and Jew from Germany, not an American) were like this in the early years of Judaism, what the fuck happened? They are complete horseshit when it comes to science now. Most of them are giant nosed freaks. How did they fuck up so badly?

>>8148429
Just shut the fuck up.

Martin Karplus, chemitery Nobel prize 2013

>>8148423
I really don't understand why you insist on the boko haram issue. No one subscribes to the ideas of that terrorist group.

You also keep thinking islam has the same flaws as Christianity,which is not true.

Your issue with religion is really just an issue with christianity.

>>8148423
You know that learning and teaching are the most respectable activities for muslims, right?

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>>8148194
>what the fuck happened to Islam?
After 1400 years of inbreeding the Arab population lost 10-15 IQ points. They can no longer into science.

>>8148209
Muslims' problems are a lot older than the USA.

>>8148450
Learning and teaching what ?

>>8148445
You're asking "how does that relate to science", i'm answering.
Also I was giving an example of the self contradiction within holy books. I bet my head that you can such contradiction within the coran.

>>8148454
Give me a reason to belive that radicalisation of some muslims is older than the Palestine colonisation.

Islam was not actually radicalized until much later after it's injection into the Arab communities. They made many great advancements in science and education before shit went south.

>>8148462

[Quran 6:151]
"..You shall not kill - God has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."

[Surah 8:12]
"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

>>8148288
This.

>>8148475
>[Quran 6:151]
>"..You shall not kill - God has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."
>[Surah 8:12]
>"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

>>8148423
>"you shall not kill" and (Luke 19:27) "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.'

>>8148445
>You also keep thinking islam has the same flaws as Christianity,which is not true.


Well, it is true, that's basically the same thing

>>8148486
Yeah, surah 8 startd with battle of badr. The ennemies were the disbelievers. It's only natural to kill your ennemies during a battle.

You can't and you won't be able to lie (by omission as usual) while I'm here.

>>8148462
Learning and teaching anything. It's part of the effort to better oneself.

>>8148462
Radical just means taking your idea all the way to it's logical conclusion. If being radical about an idea is bad, then being moderate about that idea is most likely also bad.

When I say Muslims' problems are old, I mean Muslims have been cruel and violent for a long time. They have less restraint because they're of poor genetic quality from all the inbreeding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_pirates
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

>>8148494
Well, saying "You shall not kill" and glorify a battle is as contradictory as saying "You shall not kill" and glorify murder, like the Bilble do...
Unless it is justice to kill someone who has others religious beliefs

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>>8148450
>You know that learning and teaching are the most respectable activities for muslims, right?

>>8148194
>what the fuck happened?
this p.o.s. happened
https://youtu.be/WZCuF733p88?t=1m20s

>>8148518
>and glorify a battle
it's a fucking war to avoid extermination.
if you think that's wrong, we're done here.

>>8148523
?

>>8148581
>>8148518
oh and it was a battle with army sizes of 3 to 1 in favor of quraish (the so called disbelievers) in terms of size, let alone other means (camels/horses etc). It's cited as an example of god helping against injustice because he supposedly sent angels to help.

>>8148587
>Who is Ayatollah Homeini?
>Who is Salman Rushdie?
>What are Satanic Verses?
>What is the Twelver Shia Islam?
The fuck out of here Reddit.The fuck out of here.

>>8148374
dont tell anon he cant have his kek. he'll have is kek before dinner if he likes

>>8148581
Remember me, I don't think that it was the Arabs that got conquered beetween 622 and 750. in fact they conquered the whole Mediterranean basin, forcing entire cultures, like the berbers, to submit to their religion.

Anyway that's not important, other call for murder can be found in the Koran like in any holy book. I'm not against islam, I just want to show that a religious dogma is often full of contradiction, and that in that way , it is the contrary of a scientific theory.

>>8148608
if you're not going to be explicit, I will just ignore your post.

>>8148614
it's not important when you get called out on it.
I'll debunk everything.

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>>8148545
Meh, I think he got the cart before the horse.

>Muslims WERE doing great, but then...
>ONE guy says "math is the devil", and it all goes to shit.

...plus he's ignoring how much the 300 year Golden Age relied on Greek and Indian knowledge to begin with.

>>8148615
>if you're not going to be explicit, I will just ignore your post.
Of course.
Just Google his name.
If you don't know who he is, you have no business participating in this discussion.
Learn more, THEN post.

>>8148435
>chemitery
How did they fuck up so badly?

>>8148422
Trap quote

>>8148475
>except in the course of justice
learn to read your own quote, ffs.

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>>8148646
>Trap quote
?
What, he was a polymath AND a trap/tranny?

>>8148309

No he didn't. He's asking what happened to science in the Islamic world between 1000 years ago and today. Focusing on the last 50 years makes no sense at all. The Islamic world wasn't on the cutting edge of science 50 years ago any more than it is today.

>>8148619
man, were are just haggling around details when we should be trying answer the question, Are religion and science opposite.*

>>8148194
The Ottoman Empire happened. Fatimids, Persia, etc. were OK, before the mongol invasion the muslims were heavily influenced by persians tradition. Afterwards they degenerated into the shitheads they are today, thanks to turkic """culture""" taking over.

>>8148665
no
they don't even treat of the same matters.

>>8148422
>"The world is divided into men who have wit and no religion and men who have religion and no wit." - AlHazen Ibn Al-Hatham
and? Somehow muslims are responsible for everything everyone says and does?
Somehow they're collectively responsible but the typical western person is only responsible for their own actions?

>"You know, it doesn't really matter what the media write as long as you've got a young, and beautiful, piece of ass." - Donald Trump

see how easy this is?

>>8148350
>>>/pol/

>>8148194
500+ years of colinisation is more than enough to bring people to shit

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>>8148194

>>8149042
Not a argument

>>8149049
people assume everyone else is shit.
maybe the fact is white people wanted to grow faster economically, while others were not as hasty.
And honestly the costs in terms of culture and society is very visible.

>>8149049
>muslim conquests
>whats that?

>>8149060
Translate

>>8148782
>and? Somehow muslims are responsible for everything everyone says and does?
No, you retard.
Follow the thread before you shit it up.
Although I quoted enough of it to make my point obvious:

>>8148409 (You)
>Are you SURE these are people of actual faith?
>>8148411
>yes

"The world is divided into men who have wit and no religion and men who have religion and no wit." - AlHazen Ibn Al-Hatham

AlHazen CLEARLY wasn't a man of great faith.
And the same probably goes for most "Christian" scientists.

>>8149061
*an

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>>8149073

>>8149071
>"The world is divided into men who have wit and no religion and men who have religion and no wit." - AlHazen Ibn Al-Hatham

>quotes Al-Maʿarri
>applies it to AlHazen

>>8148194
Problem is that you can get decent policy from religious standpoint or absolutely awful, it's too unreliable and depends on fashion. The madrasas (centers of learning in the ottoman empire) were subordinated to the religious authorities, and during the enlightenment the fashion was stifling, e.g. no accurate representations of the human body were allowed, and other inane religious shit like that (there was also resistance to the helliocentric model) . In the book "Intellectual Curiosity and the Scientific Revolution" by Huff (good further reading, btw) , is speculated that one of the reason the enlightenment occurred in Europe was thanks to institutional reforms during the middle ages, which gave independence to universities over the church and other political players.

>>8149071
>No, you retard.
>Follow the thread before you shit it up.
someone is bringing up quotes of random people, not me.

you're in full cognitive dissonance mode.
I don't know what your goal is, but be sure that, ironically, your behavior is described extensively in the quran.

>>8148194

Middle easterners have lower IQs than whites and whites have lower IQs to NE Asians.

>>8149173
kek
it makes no sense biologically.
middle east is between europe and asia.

>>8149175

>kek


present proof of biological egalitarianism?

>>8148782
>Somehow they're collectively responsible but the typical western person is only responsible for their own actions?

Yes, if you adhere to the religion of death and intolerance, you are on the bandwagon.

>>8149049
The Dutch were constantly invaded/conquered. We didnt become extremist zealots with low iq's.

>>8149060
11 seconds in google translate

>>8149181
>present proof of biological egalitarianism?
not saying that.
Oh shit, you'd better sit for this one.

if Asians are smarter than europeans, then middle-eastern people are also smarter than europeans.

>>8149187
>Dutch
The Dutch have not been colonized for 500 years, numbskull.

>>8149185
>Yes, if you adhere to the religion of death and intolerance, you are on the bandwagon.
sounds like you're really just describing yourself. And it fits quite well.

>>8148624

>Muslims WERE
His point is that things were good when islam wasn't that big a deal yet

>relied on Greek and Indian knowledge
Yeah exactly, that's how progress has always worked, via an environment that assimilates good ideas no matter where it comes.
Once islam got into power, innovation was replaced by revelation and everything went to shit.

>>8148194
>My question is, why didn't we learn more about this, and if Muslims (this guy was a devout Muslim and Arab from Cairo, not a Persian) were like this in the early years of Islam, what the fuck happened? They are completely horseshit when it comes to science now. Most of them are anti-science. How did they fuck up so badly?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali

>>8148624

> plus he's ignoring how much the 300 year Golden Age relied on Greek and Indian knowledge to begin with.

And what's the problem with that? Japan does the same exact thing right now and no one really gives them any grief for building upon and utilizing european knowledge.