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is mathematics man-made or has it always been there waiting for

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is mathematics man-made or has it always been there waiting for us to discover? we have our own numbers, letters, words and symbols, but before even languages existed, five fingers were still five fingers, even if the word "five" was not invented yet.
but does that really change the truth? and which one is the truth?
if you think it's natural, then do you think the entire concept is natural or only the basics like two plus two? we also have the complicated side of mathematics that require tons of numbers, letters, equations (...)
crazy stuff that came to my mind while i was taking a crap.
>>
We forumlated a model of universal laws based on a numerical system and called it Math. We invented the system but not the idea, the idea comes from nature.
>>
OP, you know people have been discussing and writing on this subject for thousands of years? At least for 500 years academically.

Why would it means what some undergrads in engineering think?

>>7797486
>universal laws
>based on a numerical system
>idea comes from nature

that opinion is not helpful
>>
>>7797515
i didnt know that. the first thing i thought was posting my idea here.
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