Hawaii Supreme Court Voids Telescope Construction Permit

>star gazing
>important
lmao

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>>7696056
do you realize what board you're on, cunt?

>>7696056
>studying anything that isnt on our tiny, shitty earth bubble isnt important

??? I dont understand you people, you realise theres a lot of space, right?

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>>7696056
>native hawaiian pagan rituals
>important

>>7696064
>paying 1.4bn to look at the sky
Just use the money to send some huge piece of technology in space, you'll get better conditions and no sacred clay

One thing to learn from this though: there probably was no one knowing about hawaii in the team. It's not a good idea to make a project from scratch without the help of locals.

>>7696074
It costs more than 1.4bn to send something into space, anon
Why should we spend more than that just because some brown belly big-eyed fucks in tutu's want to keep there dirt dirty?

>>7696074
You'll get better conditions but in return you get a complete lack of serviceability, a smaller primary mirror, and lastly and most importantly no space for a gift shop.

>>7696078
>>7696076
Chill guys, I was trolling on the first part. Serious about the second one though

>>7696066
>>7696064

>advanced propulsion
>chemical synthetics
>cheap fuel
>fusion
>quantum computers
>bunch of other shit that actually gets us somewhere

>stargazing

the difference between opening a book and learning how to build a motorcycle
vs
buying a pair of binoculars to look at other peoples motorcycles

The invisible sky people strike again.

>>7696074
itll cost the exact same amount PLUS about 2k$/per pound you send up

>>7696111
get a load of this autistic 12 yearold

>>7696044
Who cares. Build more space telescopes.

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>>7696044

"we"?

>implying anyone here voluntarily self identifies with any ethnic phenotypes unless it's relevant to the topic, by custom
>implying that 'white people' "let" this happen instead of the reality, which is that the state intervened against a corporation in order to serve the will of the people, which is what the government is fucking for
>implying you're white
>implying 'white' is even a meaningful term/that it has any bearing on whether or not a person cares about the USA's totalitarian annexation of an independent island nation
>implying the decision of the supreme court of Hawaii was based on nebulous white emotions instead of the long-lasting and overt hostility between Hawaii and the continental United States, as political entities
>implying you aren't a fedora tipper looking to rustle some jimmies
>implying my jimmies aren't rustled
>inb4 someone calls me Hawaiian
>mfw

Sad that the project leaders fucked this up by having no concept of indigenous politics because now we don't get a cool new telescope

>>7696044
Goddamn fucking retarded island niggers.

Don't worry it will get build. Lawyers will find another way or the federal government will get involved. You know it represent a good PR image for the US gov't to fund science. These protesters don't know their battle isn't won. This was just a minor setback. This isn't hte first time a propose sight was turn down then suddenly approved.

>>7696074
>Huuurrr durrr muh STEM is superior to astronomy.
Fuck off.

>>7696056
>the feelings of some hawaiians
>important
lmao

>>7696044
>why do we let white guilt get in the way of progress?
Hawaii is so multicultural you shouldn't assume white people had a major hand in the decision.
In the town there where my parent live (Makaha), there's no racial majority.
The single largest racial group is "multiracial", with only about 40% of the population.

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>>7696044
>progress
Wow you're spooked.

KILL WHITEY!!

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Jesus fucking Christ. So we just literally canceled a world-class telescope to please a bunch of retarded nimby's. Meanwhile the yuros are building an even more advanced observatory, unimpeded.

First it was high-energy physics. Then fusion power research. Now this. Fuck when are we going to stop to get outdone by them in every field of science?

Yeah I'm mad

>>7696044
Telescopes belong in space, where lenses of size impossible on Earth can exist.

Money and time wasted.

>>7696044
This shit always frustrates me too.
Culture is nothing more or less than institutionalized, collective cognitive bias. That's why learning about other cultures is enriching - not because you're exposed to anything useful, but because it gives you a better sense of how to decouple yourself as in intellectual from your context.
The postmodernists are correct in their cultural relativism but dead wrong in seeing all culture as equally worthy instead of equally worthless.

Dumb thing is most opposed to it are unemployed locals bitter about their lot in life. Instead of using this as an opportunity to enter the construction trade, they demand nothing get built so they can remain impoverished. It's mostly about wanting to feel powerful rather than any rational reason for opposing it.

>>7696228
>inb4 haoles killed mah QUEEEEN

>>7696648
That's like the other way around m8. You can't send big telescopes to space because of weight and size, while huge mirrors can be built on earth. Besides, adaptative optics are able cancel most of the effects of the atmosphere nowadays (the VLT has a higher resolving power than Hubble for instance). The only benefit of space is for wavelengths blocked by the atmosphere.

tl;dr space shill pls go

>>7696638

Literally anything that could offend someone in the US does.

It gets so old.

>>7696670
Anon, you build the lens in space. That's the point. There is a limit to how large you can create optics on Earth, and it;s not bound by material availability.

So you must build in space. To create the proper telescope.

>>7696692
Why not build on the moon? Lots of mass you can use for construction, uninterrupted solar power and on the far side you're protected from Earth's EM emissions.

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>why do we let white guilt get in the way of progress?

Why do people put themselves in a position where a 1.4 billion dollar project isn't already assured before the ink dries out on the initial paper work?

Is there any particular reason why you need this "star gazing" structure in Hawaii? Especially on a conservation spot already designated by the state prior to construction plans. That also has discretion by said state on permitting any and all structures built on said land at will.

Who was the retard who thought this wouldn't get protested? Fuck you op, this isn't lel white guilt, this is just white stupidity.

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>>7696638
hory shet

>>7696706
I'd like a moon base to be established. To even begin to make it viable there would need to be massive investments in R&D of various areas that have been largely neglected, or stagnated. The actual materials and means required to establish it, and make it able to eventually be self sustaining, is another matter.

But I do think it's worth it and would be of considerable utility. Could construct rockets and use it as a launch site (for rocket designs that wouldn't be viable for achieving escape velocity on Earth). Could use it as a processing center for asteroid mining. The telescope we just mentioned. Studies of long term or multi-generational exposure to low gravity and cosmic rays (which ideally would be shielded by some result of the R&D I mentioned, but let's be realistic).

It's a lot more viable than Mars. It should be the first step.

>>7696638
Half our population votes for politicians that openly deny scientific evidence for man-made climate change. How do you expect fundamental science to get the healthy support it needs to grow in these circumstances.

Could be worse tho

>>7696692
>Anon, you build the lens in space
Are you living in the future? We are discussing telescopes that are possible to construct today.

>>7696044
>
Is that a dome mounted on a tilted platform?

>>7696044
Eurofag here. How can one state just veto such a large-scale pan-US project, which involves international coopoeration top of that? It feels disproportionate.

Kinda make me feel less shitty about the current state of the EU ("muh sovereignty, imuh speshul snowflake") to be honest.

>>7696751
>Are you living in the future?
I am.

this has nothing to do with preserving native hawaiian culture, it is a way of holding out for more funding and perks

>>7696776

Because you are building that shit on U.S. "land", land that was already set aside for conservation purposes decades ago.

http://www6.hawaii.gov/dlnr/occl/conservation.php

It would be like trying to build a research facility on a unesco site and getting protests by the locals. The locals are technically in the right.

>>7696802
Thanks anon, it makes a bit more sense now.

>>7696730
>Is there any particular reason why you need this "star gazing" structure in Hawaii?

Combination of low light pollution, altitude, and favorable weather patterns.

>Why do people put themselves in a position where a 1.4 billion dollar project isn't already assured before the ink dries out on the initial paper work?

The US is a very litigious society and our legal system is slow. If you never built anything without a 100% guarantee that the legal system wouldn't get involved, nothing would get built. The legal system is flawed but changing it is far beyond the scope of this project.

>>7696074
>there probably was no one knowing about hawaii in the team.
>>7696228
>no concept of indigenous politics

You did realise they had a permit and had a hearing and had a court case already? Read the article, during one hearing only those for met, the naysayers appeared later and things picked up steam after a road block.

Is reading the article cheating?

>>7696074
>One thing to learn from this though: there probably was no one knowing about hawaii in the team. It's not a good idea to make a project from scratch without the help of locals.

Wrong. The University of Hawaii that manages the site is a key member of the collaboration.

>>7696211
The technology nor the funds exist to do put it in space.

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>>7696044
Can I bulldoze your house to build a server array there for science?

>>7696228
>indigenous politics

Indigenous people don't get to impose their politics. That's what it means to be conquered. What we have here are guilty non-indigenous people who feel bad about bringing science, medicine and the light of civilization to an island chain of savages, whose decendants now eat at McDonalds, buy coffee at Starbucks, and evoke the ghost of their oppressed heritage to assuage their own feelings of guilt about abandoning said savage, science-less heritage to embrace the Western world and all the benefits thereof.

tl;dr a group that white people should have killed outright at first contact but weren't out of mercy now enjoy a much better existance but suffer a compulsion to bitch and fuck up important shit so they can pretend they still care about some shit that was never important.

Still tl;dr

Fuck indigenous people and their politics.

>>7696989

No houses are anywhere near the proposed site, but hey, why let facts get in the way of your arguement? Please procede.

>Sorry, guys, no telescope. Turns out the mountain is magic.

The fuck century is this?

>>7696998
If I was attached to a location, and had lived near a mountain for quite a long time, knew its stories, it was part of my history, I might object to it being changed. I might want it to continue existing so others could experience it the way I was able to.

Progress, to me, is an illusion. Progress cannot be used in the abstract, it is necessarily discrete and defined. But at the same time I realize time does exist, and things do change. Nothing lasts forever. Which is why you really need the context these people are operating on to understand what they mean, and what it really means to build the observatory.

Humans are destroyers, this cannot be denied. Change entails both creation and destruction, one is always tied to the other. The nature of that change needs to be weighed and evaluated. Here you can see how it panned out. Too bad, so sad, but that's how it works, regardless of what century you live in.

>>7697002

"Progress, to me, is an illusion," he typed into his always-connected pocket computer...

I understand their context, I just don't agree to submit to it, or want to halt progress in order to satisfy it, and I don't agree with others who say I should.

To some, the mountain is sacred. I have no problem with anyone feeling that the mountain is sacred. But to stand in the way of a project with tangible value, I would expect some sort of comperable balance of value. A cultural value large enough to offset the very real obstacle to discovery that opposition to the telescope represents.

It is the state of things now where no one on either side will bring up the detail that the mountain is not *actually* sacred. Gods don't *really* live there. I can recognize that even without being actually magical, there can be a cultural significance to a place that must be considered, but it seems that, "it's sacred," is being treated as an unassailable position here, which is concerning to me, as magic cannot be measured.

How magic does a place have to be before it qualifies for this exception to reasonable arguement, and how do you measure that? The summit is too magical to build on right now, but what if later they decide even the side is too magical to build on? "Sorry, the magic rules changed." Can't argue with it; it's magic.

In general, I'm not a fan of progress bowing to magical thinking.

>>7696044
>a mountain many consider sacred

it's just a mountain

>>7697040
>"Progress, to me, is an illusion," he typed into his always-connected pocket computer...
Sentences are not standalone, they exist within the context of paragraphs (or a work as a whole), and this is a good deal of what determines their meaning. If you're parsing and interpreting things this way, stop doing it. Your commentary on what I said doesn't make any sense.

>I understand their context
No, you don't. I don't understand their context. I don't know them. I've never been to Hawaii, I don't know anything about the mountain in question. And I doubt you do either.

The fallback, if you must generate an opinion, is based on personal ideals and philosophies about how the world ought to work. That's what you're using. That's what I'm using. We must not pretend otherwise.

>But to stand in the way of a project with tangible value,
What makes it more tangible than what the mountain provides as it stands?

>I would expect some sort of comperable balance of value.
Hence the above. It's necessarily subjective, you can't establish meaningful objective metrics. The clustering observed in opinion likely fairly reliably depends on what demographic you sample, which says it all itself.

>does a place have to be before it qualifies for this exception to reasonable arguement,
This was subject to reasonable argument. Say your kids aren't useful and someone wants to throw them out. Would "I like my kids" "[insert philosophy here]" be unreasonable?

>In general, I'm not a fan of progress bowing to magical thinking.
Progress, from what to what? Progress, relative, to what? Progress must be discrete, it is not abstract. To make it abstract is itself a form o hazy magical thinking.

But I think you know that already. You already outlined above the framework for a weighting process similar to what I would use. Personally I think it's dualistic. In this case I don't really care about the outcome. The system that would be directly affected made its choice.

>>7696654
Fucking this.

>>7696801
>all these butthurt whiteys

Why didn't you retards consult the local populace and govt and involve them in decision making before setting up the foundations for the telescopes you retards

Thank you for proving that no matter how much you write, you can still have no idea what you're talking about.

>>7697072
>>7697002
There's a time and place for postmodernism, friend, but it's not on this Bengali textile-makers' forum

>>7697068
pro-telescope here, but stil:
>its just a telescope

>>7696992

>a group that white people should have killed outright at first contact but weren't out of mercy now enjoy a much better existance
>out of mercy
>implying

Motherfucker like most "island" populations the first thing whites did was get their dicks wet and then try to convert them to Catholic/Christianity. Afterwards they conquered them, turn them to second class citizens and basically assigned their culture to "tourist attraction" tier.

But even with all that the problem isn't with the indeginous population it's with the state that basically agreed with said population in registering the mountain as a protected site. The indeginous people say sacred but really it's a biodiversity sanctuary sanctioned by law which is what gives their protesting "teeth".

Same thing is going on with the amazon forest, the natives aren't the ones really preventing anything it's the outside interest who can economically cock block south american countries from expanding.

>>7696044

>Hey, we need to build an orphanage to house and take care of these orphans.

>Sorry, this place is sacred. You will just have to tell the orphan kids to fuck right off.

>2015

Why the fuck is the government not planning a nuclear attack? Last time one of the states challenged the core values of american culture they got fucked in the ass with bullets.

>>7697107
as of right now it's nothing. We could have a mountain AND a telescope if these people weren't so selfish.

Evil.