is he right /sci/? is the STEM job shortage a myth? Am i really

>>7691896
Only the T in STEM is actually good.

>>7691900
And the T stands for EE and CpE

>>7691896
Yes he's right. The job STEM grads are getting since the start of the "shortage" are in banking, IT, Coding, and Insurance. Jobs you only need a BS/A and experience. Cops make more than Engineers in major cities. In San Francisco, Cops make on average 95,000 with an extra 20,000 in compensation/benefits. STEM shortage was a myth pushed by Mark Zuckerberg and Silicon Valley elites to get more HB-1 slaves.. I mean workers. These workers are watering down wages for engineers. Ask any engineer today if they feel secure in their jobs. We're at the point in engineering where jobs are hard to find or pay shit. Just like programming was gutted 15 years ago with the outsourcing. I believe the IEEE has a study on the myth. So does a professor of engineering at UNC-Chapel hill.

>>7691896
>computational astrophysics

There are a ton of these guys in Wall Street. He's just fuming because he can't get paid to stare at stars all day long.

>>7691908
Quants or data scientists. They're getting poached by Silicon Valley VC firms or tech companies for data science. Wall Street is experiencing a brain drain.

>>7691896
lol so just don't get a STEM job. who gives a fuck? You're still way, way more qualified and impressive than some art major. physics majors get jobs, just not in physics because yeah, there are no physics jobs but we all know that.

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>>7691912
brain drain implies they knew what the fuck they were doing before that

its all a house of cards anon

>>7691968
Wall Street did know what they're doing. It just Late Gen xers and Millennials are not going to adopt the boomer work hour mentality. 90-110 hours a week. Tech, VC, and new industries provide better work hours.

>>7691896
Yes there is so much truth in that post it should be stickied on /sci/.

Also note that he is a physics PhD is an engineering relevant field such as computation and he can't find employment as an engineer. He is wrong to blame the companies though, they don't want to hire them because they want someone who can eventually get a PE so they don't have to hire consulting firms to sign off on everything, not because they don't want to spend 2-3 years training him.

In general the STEM job shortage is a myth. Most engineering fields are oversaturated* now -or has always been- and there was never a shortage of science and math. There is some shortage in technology trades. The STEM job shortage is really only for T.


* This is no joke, 50% of engineering graduates do not find employment in engineering.

>>7691908
>There are a ton of these guys in Wall Street.
Myth.

They were getting hired for 200-300k base before 2008. Today there's thousands of guys applying to quant jobs and so firms expect them to work insane hours for next to nothing just for the chance to compete for 50k starting salaries and crappy commissions.

Not to mention the fact that virtually anyone with a degree can apply for these jobs.

>>7691902
>In San Francisco, Cops make on average 95,000 with an extra 20,000 in compensation/benefits.
That's overpaid as fuck for something that almost anyone can do. Fucking corrupt tax money stealers, I really hope this is bullshit.

>>7691933
>lol so just don't get a STEM job. who gives a fuck? You're still way, way more qualified and impressive than some art major. physics majors get jobs,

Yes, but you could've done an art major to get the same job and salary. Hell you could probably get with a high-school diploma and some networking.

>>7691896
You're fucked with or without a STEM degree, you're just less fucked with one than you are with an humanities degree.

Are there even shortages of anything anymore?

If jobs are so fucked up, then at least I'd have more confidence on a STEM degree rather than a humanities degree (Job wise, not trying to insult humanities)

>>7692211
In the US at least, there are shortages of machinists and other blue collar jobs, that you don't need past a college degree for, construction, etc.

Not surprisingly, everyone is pushed into college, and hey why not make it free?

>>7691896
This is more or less true. Unless you are going into Tech or Med. It's really interesting because in the US science is increasingly defended, but there are an increasing number of STEM grads. because everyone thinks it's the best way to make money.

I would guess that Mr. Wang is complaining about not getting the job he wanted when he appears to have a shit Ph.D. from a not terribly good school and a terrible publication record. The thing with getting a Ph.D. and wanting to do relevant research is that you first have to go to a good school and then once there, make sure you publish hit (you could get away with going to a shit school if your publication record is stellar, but this guy's isn't). It seem that being an "above average" applicant is not all that hard if you put in the slightest effort, but lots of people just kinda wonder through their Ph.D. programs without ever really doing work (a lot of them seem to actively hate research, so why they decided this was a good idea, I have no idea).

>>7692265
I suppose it should be "Dr. Wang," not "Mr. Wang."

>computational astrophysics

joseph wang you're a fucking tool

>>7691896
>lol Quora fag

I've always thought it would be hilarious to get /b/ to raid them. If you want a really good laugh, check out the review some guy left of 4chan
https://www.quora.com/Reviews-of-4chan

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>>7692288
my only complaint is that it's really a 5 star review

>>7692293
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-reddit-and-4chan
^this one's pretty funny

https://www.quora.com/What-will-happen-when-4chan-discovers-Quora
^this question is literally telling us how best to raid them. It's like they're taunting us

>>7692308
>^this one's pretty funny
lol the end. love ya 4chan old moot forever.

>>7691987
Nope. Cops make a lot of money in major cities. LAPD starts their officer at 65k. Within three years they're around 80-100k. Big budgets and unions. So if you want to make money go into law enforcement.

>caring about muh job shortages and muh saturation
it doesn't matter if you're in the 95th percentile (or better) of ability, knowledge or connections

literally git gud and you won't give a fuck whether your field is "saturated" or not. if you expect the world to suck your dick for being average, you're not going to succeed no matter what field you go into.

>>7691988
says who? you're not going to get a job as an analyst or programmer with an art degree and they will 9/10 times pick a physics major or engineering major because they actually know about it.

>>7691896
>Also one maddening thing is that companies are usually completely unwilling to retrain people.

Fucking this. Companies now-a-days are completely unwilling to take a punt on graduates, they want you to leave university with a all the requisite skills and knowledge, as if that was the point of university. I once saw a graduate programme that wanted you to have 2 years experience in the industry. 2 years experience, for a graduate programme.

>>7692854
>bawww nobody will hold my hand while i'm costing them money and not producing anything

>>7691896
stem jobs in the normal areas are saturated.

however there are tons of stem jobs that involve making things that dont exist.

go back 14 years and you would have never found a job listing for UBER and yet all that really is is an android app.

if you're a stem fag that got pushed through the program so that the university could take your loan shekels then you fucked up.

>>7692855
Really bad b8 m8.

>>7692855
It's true though. Think about it from the prospective of a business owner or a project manager.

You have no experience and need at least 3 months of training to get caught up to speed on whatever project. Company is going to have a \senior, productive engineer train you for those 3 months and take hits to his own productivity. So now your inexperience is eating up two salaries and actually producing less for it. Is it any wonder why you won't get hired?

>>7692914
Directed at >>7692863

>>7692914
So wait, are arguing that it's not profitable for firms to higher and train graduates? What happens when the current workforce retires? I've got to say 3 months of slightly reduced productivity seems like a great investment compared with going out of business. This is either really weak bait or you're just retarded.

>>7692924
>What happens when the current workforce retires?
then it becomes profitable.

but until then, learn shit yourself or fuck off faggot.

>>7692932
Yep, you're retarded.

>>7691987
...what fucking crab mentality horseshit

>>7692924
> I've got to say 3 months of slightly reduced productivity seems like a great investment compared with going out of business.
You know what's an even better investment? Hiring someone who can do the job on day 1 and hit the ground running. Those 3 months are now a net gain for the company.

>>7692942
>telling people to put effort in their own studies is retarded
fuck off retard. I'm betting you're one of those stem fags that just barely passed and expects a 100k a year salary for doing fuck all in their shitty state run college.

>>7692961
>durr hurr

Keep going faglord, it's funny to watch you sperg out over your retarded economic ideas, I really hope you never own your own company, it'll be a massive waste of investment money.

>>7692966
pretty obvious that you will definitely never be running anything at this rate except maybe your moms food bill you fat ass NEET faggot.

>>7692966
A lot of startups have the exact same philosophy. Especially in tech -- they want people who have experience with whatever stack they're running, they don't have the time or the money to train anyone.

>Major in engineering physics
>followed voluntary courses of biology
>Minor in Electrical Engineering
>extracurricullar work such as voluntary (communications) internship and some management/leadership stuff
>21
>okaye but not perfect grades

I was just wondering; I think my resume is pretty good overall, but could anyone tell me if i've invested too much in becoming a jack-of-all-trades, instead of really deepening in one topic?
STEM jobs require pretty deep knowledge I guess so did I waste opportunities there? Or are extra-curricullar count more or just as much as really high grades?

>>7692960
This is a really dumb argument you're in. You're just describing the optimal solution of both sides of a negotiation and somehow arguing over it. Baffling.

Also, the decline in training over the last 20 years (it really was waaaay more common in the past for companies to invest in workers) happened for two reasons: automation and globalization trimming fat from the labor market, and changes in corporate policies designed to prop up share prices by cutting basically anything they could cut. The first reason is understandable from the perspective of firms (if there's more people looking for work you can set the bar higher). The second reason is a result of valuing short sided profits over long term investment; by pushing training onto other companies or onto the workers themselves by forcing them to get costly education, you're gonna see an overall decline in the pool of workers whose competence you can trust. Firms argue that they don't want to train because the workers will just switch companies once they're worth more, but that's just a way of saying that they want cheap workers; if they were thinking long term, they'd train people and then give them an incentive to stay, but they don't because that would require thinking beyond a given financial quarter and the stock market would punish them for it.

>>7692985
It sucks for graduates but it's an employer's market. Not much you can do about it besides start your own business or wait for universal basic income. And you have a point about the stock market punishing companies for thinking beyond financial quarters, but I'm not sure it applies here, because there are a lot of companies on the NASDAQ 100 that will train new hires for 6 months. And companies that aren't publicly trading don't want to train new employees (see >>7692971), it's just the cut-throat way things have gotten lately.

Companies just don't want to hire dead weight losers, and honestly, it's a bad sign if you have to be expensively "trained" to do something you should've learned on the internet for free, if you had any ambition at all.

>>7693006
>but I'm not sure it applies here
It does apply here. Dude you can find mckinsey studies and stuff; training has declined and a lot of it is because of a sea shift in the way firms think about budgets. The stock market is just one part of it too; a lot of it goes to how the top level managers and investors think about how firm run. And training in firms didn't die obviously, but it's undeniably true that it has decline substantially - less money going to fewer people who are chosen more stringently.

Oh also unions. Forgot to mention that; unions were a big part of why training was a thing.

>Companies just don't want to hire dead weight losers, and honestly, it's a bad sign if you have to be expensively "trained" to do something you should've learned on the internet for free, if you had any ambition at all.
You seem like you're thinking about this with your emotions and not your reason. There's no morally correct territory here; this is a bargain and the training will come out of your pocket or theirs. The "ambition" of individual workers doesn't matter (that should be obvious btw - if you were ambitious and training were more readily given, you'd be an idiot to spend your own time training yourself cause you could use that time more productively).

>being a wage slave working for someone else

top kek, thought you guys considered yourselves smart

>>7691981
>* This is no joke, 50% of engineering graduates do not find employment in engineering.
It is 31 % in bagged milk land.

http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.ospe.on.ca/resource/resmgr/DOC_advocacy/2015_REPORT_Underemployment_.pdf

See page 10

The stupidest thing I've seen in the job market is that they want experience in house software you cannot get in the outside.This is how you know companies are run by morons.

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>>7692308
>https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-reddit-and-4chan

That pretty much nails it.

>>7693049
>The "ambition" of individual workers doesn't matter
fuck off retard.

>>7693075
That means they don't actually want to hire people and only have those job listings to full fill some retarded regulations the government imposes on them.

If they really needed people to use that software they would hire someone who has experience in it first, if they can't find anyone that does then they find someone who is likely to learn how to use it quickly.

>>7693120
...it doesn't matter in the sense that it can be held constant at any level and the statement in my argument would still be valid.

Chris you're dumb. It's like you've never read a reasoned argument before. It's as tho you just saw a few words that upset your sensibilites in some vague way and started throwing feces.

>>7693143
>...it doesn't matter in the sense that it can be held constant at any level and the statement in my argument would still be valid.
your argument is trash faggot.

ambition does matter, you wouldn't be a fat ass NEET virgin faggot complaining about not being able to find a job with their paper mill degree if you had any at all.

>>7692265
hard to find information on this guy, what's his school?

>>7693169
Not sure if troll or just really stupid

>>7693177
fat ass neet faggot virgin gtfo.

>>7693188
...all that did is to make it seem like you're either even more of a troll than I thought or even dumber than I thought.

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>>7691896
>getting a degree for the sake of a job and not for learning
Viper

>>7693286
Most Clapistonais go to college for a job. Anti-intellectualism is rampant in the theocracy known as America. Their smartest people are jews, asians, and immigrants in general.

>>7693344
Anyone who wants to accomplish something in their lives and doesn't come from money has to choose a degree, even if only initally, for a job.

>>7692837
In the first place no one wants to be a fucking code monkey, secondly yes they will absolutely pick an art major with a decent github and just about anyone with an associates or certs.

>>7691896
It's really pretty silly to generalize things to this extent. STEM is such a broad spectrum that it's really statistically meaningless to say something like "STEM job shortage." What sort of STEM degree were you hoping to pursue?

>>7692816
This is because wearing a uniform in places like LA is like putting on a sign that says "please kill me!" If you want people to do it, expect to have to pay them well.

>tfw Physics
>tfw no jobs ever

>>7693050
Yes, let's all work only for ourselves, and let the infrastructure vanish! Who needs food/power/clean water/medical care?

>>7692960
Right, Captain Obvious.

Now what do you do when that perfect candidate wants more money than HR will allow, or does not walk in for a month, three months, a year?

At some point it would have been more profitable to train that rejected candidate and make that product.

But it seems that firms prefer to waste time and opportunities because whining is free. This baffles me as unrealized opportunities for raking in money are today regarded as if they were actual losses.

>>7693075
Might be a signal to investors; hey, we're healthy and growing!

Might also be a ploy to get around regulations that say they have to look for a specific time before some rules are relaxed.

>>7691896
The STEM "job shortage" IS a meme created by corporations who want to pay lower wages to stem grads who used to expect above 100k for even stupid jobs like programmer. (Not kidding here, google programmer salaries from the past decades).

How do I cope with this?
There are not many mathematics graduates in my country.

And everytime I google math related jobs near myself there are always about 8 open options so I feel pretty good.

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>only has 1 phd
look at this loser, no wonder he got nojobs

>>7691987

Putting aside the fact that a job where you have to confront unhinged drug addicts and violent criminals on a daily basis deserves a decent wage, do you really want cops to be so underpaid they don't give a shit?

Communities depend on cops to deal with a lot of bullshit that won't be dealt with otherwise. You want them to care about doing a good job, which is difficult to do when you're being paid peanuts.

>>7691896
>Astrophysics
Adding a "computational" to it doesn't change anything. It is a degree that means NASA or academia, and both are overfilled anyway. Also yes, after university you may have to move from Houston to Portland. And I'm sure that a lot of people warned him that a PhD will not increase his chances and many employers are turned off by it. Yes many companies are not retraining. Because people like him do a degree and start thinking afterwards.

>>7691902
Yeah, only I'd rather do science than drive through neighborhoods where I have the chance to be shot daily.

THROW UP WEST SIDE CALI

>>7692211
There's a shortage of Women's Studies professors, anon :^)

We need more of them.

>>7691896
He's right on a good portion of what he's saying.

Even applying to internships while in school, I've found that if you are applying to a job in stem where you aren't THE applicant companies are looking for , you are not going to get the job.

Example: I major in biochemistry. I have taken all of the physics, math, and pchem a chemistry major has taken, - pchem 2. I apply to a position more focused on physical chem than biochem and my resume is trashed. No one wants anything to do with you if you dont have the title.

Conversely, the only call back I got was from a pesticide company that runs toxicology tests. Don't think it's a coincidence.

Companies don't have to settle for anyone. If you aren't the shit, they will gladly wait another month for someone a little more qualified.

/biz/ here

degrees like computational astrophysics are memes

an employer doesn't care about the finer details of astrophysics but it demonstrates you can do fancy things with computers and have a working brain, thus should have no trouble with whatever they require of you, bonus points if you have experience with c++, java, python or whatever it is they specifically need, which should be an ordeal to train in yourself, how difficult would it be to set up a website with examples of your work?

>>7696889
should? shouldn't.

looks like I'm going to sleep...

Fresh ChemE here
I graduated from Cracov University of Technology in Poland (10/10 in shitty school), couldnt make it any better because i god addicted to wow when in high school.
But still, when I was on first year I got to research group in organic chemistry and did quite interesting stuff here, i did my bachelor and major based on these research, also co-operated in few publications, I had weak grades but menaged to have the best in field that im interested in (organic).
2 weeks after graduation some dude contaced me and offered me 1000$/month job as some laboratory twat (1000$ must sound funny but the lowest is 400$/month here in Poland so its almost 2.5 x better right after graduation....) but I menaged to do PhD and then go to some research department for some corporation and then earn like 101209873598 times more (sweet dreams).
So its not that bad after ChemE in Poland kek

>>7691902
Well then what the fuck should I get a degree in?

I didn't pass final exams of my MSc. studies in theoretical physics. I lost all of my motivation and got depressed when I started to fully realize that in academia
>job security is crappy
>it is extremely hard to get a permanent position
>many scientists think that not many people find their research interesting
>funding system constrains academic freedom
>jobs are paid less

I can't even describe in how bad situation I'm right now. I get interviews here and there but I don't really have anything extra to offer to employers. I've been at an interview today and I had one yesterday. I don't think I've bombed neither of them but when I think about how many people have better looking resumes, my job prospects turn to shit.

>>7698520
What country are you in? I'm interested in UK Maths PhD prospects, particularly in academia.

>>7698586
terrible mate, do something else

>>7698586
I'm in Eastern Europe. I wouldn't recommend you doing your PhD at all. Unless you are extremely talented, motivated and willing to sacrifice your social and family life. From what I've heard, succeeding academically in math is very hard.

Try to get a position outside of academia. Do some job hunting, there are many interesting positions for math graduates.

>>7696906
>be phd
>cant even into fucking english

I don't know why you guys are bitching, I can't wait to be a Ph.D chemist who still washes dishes at a Chinese restaurant.

>>7698611
1. PhD in cheme not english
2. in Poland we dont speak english so I dont feel an urge to be fluent in this shit kek
3. 90% of natives make retarded mistakes in english so gtfo

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>>7691896

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>>7699056

Hello Polan

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>>7700787
>poor country
>no money
>no army
>but no niggers and sand niggers
>also democracy and human rights
Still Poland>>EU (excluding Hungary) and Russia

>>7700812
you have niggers though
they are called slavs

>>7700813
Hehe, funny, almost as funny as sharia law that you are gonna have in western europe in the next few years.
I'm okey with being called nigger as long as Iong as my gf can walk next to the one of a few mosques in my country without getting her ass kicked for not looking like a pinguin.
Get rekt Ahmed

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>>7700812
>no army
Kurwa

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>>7700828
O kurwa

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>>7700812
>>no army

You have fucking stealth tanks

>>7691987
Sure, cops may not be settled around the extreme end of skilled labor shaking hands with astronaut engineers and CERN physicists and what-not, but it's definitely skilled labor. On top of that, it has a fuckton of personality requirements (a shitty physicist may delay an important project, but a shitty cop will ruin lives), and unless you're the cop equivalent of a fobbit you're regularly put in danger as you go about your work (especially in places like LA or what-not).

If you seriously think anybody can be a cop you're either severely uneducated about the profession or a delusional retard. Or both.

>>7700828
Britbongs don't need a massive army, they never have by the way. Maybe if you slavs would learn how to read maps you notice the massive body of water separating the Great Britain from the rest of Europe and you would conclude they only have to either shoot some aircraft or launch tor-pedos (kek) to stay safe.

>>7699056
Polak here, I'm from Szczecin, got a Master's from West-Pomeranian UT, went on to get a PhD in the UK, now I live in Cali getting $12k per month. Learning foreign languages can be really useful.

>>7691987
This is why scientists, engineers and co. should organise unions.

Although it will probably be ineffective since tech/research companies don't need to hire locally and your job will probably be outsourced. Can't exactly outsource cops.

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>betting on getting an academic position
>almost all grads from my field go into academia
At this point I wouldn't mind teaching community college

>be on /sci/
>see everyone pushing STEM
>whynotzoidberg.jpg
>lazy
>scrape by
>bad social skills
>low grades
>unable to get a job at graduation
>"STEM is a meme, the market is saturated, give up now wah wah wah"

Literally 90% of this board

>>7701073
It's because most of the people that browsed the board in 2010 where highly intelligent and well rounded upper middle class kids.

Our advice didn't apply to you idiot /r9k/ destined lurkers.

>>7701024
Even those jobs are hard to come by

>>7701016
The reason an engineers' salary breaks 6 figures in the first place is because when he is offered lower there is no other experienced, qualified and talented alternative, so employers have to raise their offer if they want actual meaningful and valuable work.

For a police officer, yes I do understand that not every nigger with a criminal record can become one, but there are millions of niggers who can get through the easy training and drive a patrol cruiser. They should not have those high salaries just because public service unions bullied tax payers into over paying for an overvalued service.

>>7693175
I don't remember. The problem is that there is a fairly well published Dr. Wang and then this guy. So, I searched Google Scholar using this guys name plus computational plus astrophysics and came up with one or two papers with no citations and a couple of posters from some small school in the (IIRC) the DC area.

>caring about jobs
lol

>>7691979
>It just Late Gen xers and Millennials are not going to adopt the boomer work hour mentality. 90-110 hours a week.
No but immigrants will.

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>>7701110
>le immigrants are hard working meme

Over 60% of the non-EU immigrants living in Europe are on social welfare.

The economic migrants coming there were actually shocked when they learned how hard Europeans work.

You have no idea how little people in Africa or ME work.

For the few people in Africa that do actually have a full time job a typical workday proceeds like this:
>Come in at 9 despite contract requiring you to show up at 8; usually blame it on shitty public transportation (getting up early is a sin)
>Do actual work until 10
>Teabreak until 11
>Stand around chatting until lunch "hour" at 1.
>Go eat somewhere, return at 2:30-3:00 despite needing to be back at 2:00
>Go home at 4:00 despite requiring to stay until 5:00
>Completely forget about work and go out drinking
>Zero passion or productivity on non-working days (something most European, Asian and American professions do have)
>Like fucking 30 national holidays throughout the year where everything shuts down for half a week.

Source: African. I'm moving to the EU soon. I fucking hate my lazy ass compatriots.
>tfw becoming the economic migrant everyone hates so much only through actual legal means

>>7701086
The reason an engineer gets paid so much is because he's designing something which is probably going to be made hundreds of thousands-millions of times, which because of economies of scale, means his work has a very large direct impact on the profitability of the company. Thus companies are willing to pay lots of money. Srsly if your company makes all its money through making and then selling something on a relatively large scale, engineers are 1/2 your business, and they're the first half.

Problem is, if you're hiring engineers, you don't really need to hire engineers in the US. You can hire engineers from germany, russia, uk, japan. This means there's more competition, and thus wages are dragged down. This only gets worse as more people pick up higher education btw.

Now, police on the other hand. He's only competing with other people in his city, because you can't hire someone living in Shenzhen to police NYC. If he joins a union, his employer can't just ship the force out to some lab in India. If they go on strike, same thing. He's much more secure against the effects of billions of desperate people living around the world wanting his job.

>>7691896
Daily reminder that in a capitalist economy every industry must have a certain degree of unemployment.

ITT: STEM dropouts justifying switching to liberal arts

>>7702259
Engineering has always been an international profession m8. They are paid more or less the same throughout the world because it's an international market (excluding shitty countries with shitty universities). There's still more international demand for engineers than local demand for cops. You're getting cu.cked by allowing public service to steal so much of your tax money. There's it little demand for them.

>>7691896
nah he's probably just an autist with a PhD. There's a lot of request but obviously it's the real world, so you don't just have to wave around a degree to get in, you actually have to show confidence, competence and intraprendence