What does /sci/ think about flu vaccines?

How many things can one get vaccinated against? Does anyone think prayers are more effective

Meh.

Like 3-5% effective because there are so many types of flus and they basically guess which one will be prevalent each year.

I never get the flu, hence I'm not too worried about preventing it.

Inject something that directly interacts with your immune system with little to no clear benefit.

I pass every year. No thanks.

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Adult influenza vaccine injury claims are now the leading claim submitted to the federal Vaccine Injury Compensation Program so it is important to understand risks associated with influenza vaccines. Below are current links for the influenza vaccine manufacturer's package inserts that have been licensed for use in the U.S. NVIC encourages consumers read this information carefully prior to receiving a vaccine. These links will lead you to the U.S. Food & Drug Administration's website, which makes vaccine package inserts and licensing information from available to the public. Inserts contain important information regarding drug interactions, contraindications, adverse reactions, warnings and precautions.
www.nvic.org/vaccines-and-diseases/Influenza/Influenza-Vaccine-Package-Inserts.aspx

>>7668692
Not going to have some unknown shit injected into me yearly for the vague notion of protecting other people.

>>7668694
>>7668704
>>7668795

Idiots.

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>>7668799
Substantial argument anon.

They're useful for people with respiratory problems or compromised immune systems, but it's a shot every year for uncertain benefit. I tend to fight off the flu pretty well, so I've never bothered with them.
>tfw gf has asthma and is going to make me get the vaccine so she has less chance of catching the flu off me

>>7668802

Here's the argument. Having the flu sucks, but there is a cheap, easy, and harmless way to prevent it. So do it.

>>7668704

>I've never been in a car accident so I don't wear seatbelts.

Retard.

>>7668807
I'm 22 and have never had the flu. I live in a rural area and my immune system is fairly solid either way.

Weighting ambiguity is a large part of risk assessment. To me, it isn't worth it, and probably won't ever be. My only interest is why people get so bent out of shape at people who don't get flu shots.

>>7668811
>I'm 22 and have never had the flu. I live in a rural area and my immune system is fairly solid either way.

See >>7668810

>Weighting ambiguity is a large part of risk assessment. To me, it isn't worth it, and probably won't ever be.

Well that's not rational. I don't think you understand how easy it is.

>My only interest is why people get so bent out of shape at people who don't get flu shots.

Because of herd immunity. You would be protecting others, not just yourself. And you have no reason to decline other than sociopathic apathy and/or tinfoil stupidity.

>>7668805
As an asthmatic this sounds like nonsense. The flu has never interfered with my breathing. The pneumococcal vaccine is a smarter option. I pass on the flu vaccine every year, but the pneumonia can put me in the hospital.

>>7668692
When are they going to figure out how to do this shit without a shot? I'm a big babby so I'd rather risk the flu than get stuck in the arm.

>>7668811
>>7668805
You're missing the point, you should get it so you don't infect your grandparents or young children rather than to protect yourself. Being a carrier has nothing to do with your ability to fight it off.

>>7668834
>Well that's not rational. I don't think you understand how easy it is.
Easy it is to do something you don't understand, and feel right about it.

>Because of herd immunity.
First post addressed this. I'll take care of myself, they'll take care of themselves. That's how it works. If they expect me to go out of my way to protect them, they're going to meet non-favorable results. Likewise for the inverse.

You can call it sociopathic apathy, paranoia, stupidity, or whatever you find fitting. I'm not going to get an unknown mixture injected into me (thus placing faith in its creators), feel sick for a day or so while my immune system hopefully does something remotely useful with it, and inconvenience myself further by having to run out and get the damn thing to begin with. What part of this sounds like it's in my interest?

Tell me anon, what sort of environment are you from? City, urban, rural. Something in between?

>>7668856
Dumb hick.

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>>7668862

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>>7668692
>autism in a bottle
no thanks

>>7668856
>You can call it sociopathic apathy,

Check

paranoia,

Check

>stupidity,

Definitely check

>whatever you find fitting

Edgelord. Faggot.

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>>7668879
Found a picture of you anon.

>>7668856
>I'll take care of myself, they'll take care of themselves

I hope your infant son gets the flu and dies one day.

>>7668884
It's but one of myriad (and thensome) things that can kill an infant, and unfortunately it does happen.

Although, I'd imagine children that aren't breastfed would be far more susceptible. Something that won't be the case for any children I might or might not ever have.

ITT: anti-vaxxer morons

If you seriously think flu shots do no good then you are part of the problem.

Your god will make you answer for the blood on your hands when you reach the afterlife.

>>7668884
>I hope..
Why? Don't you know that karma is a bitch?

>>7668856
You not getting a vaccine is what causes them to get sick, that's how herd immunity works. You're basically greatly increasing the risk of accidentally killing someone, and you don't even know it. Nobody intentionally gets the flu. How can put so little value on human life that isn't your own?

>>7668907

Exactly, he deserves to lose his son because of some snotty moron like him.

>>7668913
>How can put so little value on human life that isn't your own?

It's called being next level edgy. Most people grow out of it by the time they graduate high school.

>>7668913
It's the fucking flu. It's not Polio. We're never going to eliminate the flu like we've eliminated, and virtually eliminated things like Polio, Measles, Small Pox, etc.
I don't think herd immunity applies to the fucking flu. They put out a new vaccine every year based on a best guess due to what kinds of flu they're getting in Europe. It's hit and miss, and there are multiple strains going around all the time. Meanwhile the fucking virus is evolving and mutating as we speak. If I were elderly or had a compromised immune system I'd give it a shot, but otherwise, fuck that. I'm not pouring more money into this snake oil. Why am I going to buy a product that maybe probably could work this year?

>>7668913
I mentioned the delineation between rural areas and cities for a reason.

There's a larger population center nearby, where pedestrians have the right of way. How do you think people respond to this aspect of their ecology? By walking out in front of traffic without looking. They're talking on their phone. They're unaware, they're whatever. But either way, they don't even look, and it doesn't matter if you're going 10 or 30, they expect the world to magically stop for them. They'll walk in all black at night expecting to be seen. They don't care, they'll probably half live and sue you into oblivion afterwards.

They expect to be taken care of. It's nonsense. We might be one grand intertwined whole, but tacking on "and we should all live in ways that take care of everyone else" makes it a typical collectivist delusion. I don't value their life in an abstract sense, and they don't value mine. Everyone has arbitrary lines they draw. You whine about me not getting a flu shot but probably ignore your own friends indirectly fucking you over every single day, it's just the degree of separation at work that skews your judgement.

>>7668913
Herd immunity, said the shepherd, but fails to tell you how many infections come from vaccine strains, not wild strains, and how often they only affect the vaccinated.

>>7668929

Bla bla edgelord bullshit, you'll change your mind when you're older.

>>7668924
>I don't think herd immunity applies to the fucking flu.

Well... you're wrong? Like, objectively? How is somebody supposed to respond to this?

>>7668935
Hopefully you get a bit older and learn not to conduct yourself like a child.

I always get a flu shot. It's free at my Uni and only takes a minute. I usually don't get the flu but I'd rather test my odds with the vaccine than without it.
Also to the dumbfuck who said they only protect 3-5% of the time, try 30-50%.

Biologists tell me how far we are from bacterial vaccines

>>7668929
The point of vaccines is to control a virus within a population, no one gives a shit about you specifically. On a good year, vaccinating everyone would reduce contractions of the flu by about 50%. That's saving many lives. Obviously not yours because you're a cunt.

>>7668945
We did a grand job making all those antibiotic resistant bacteria.

Weren't there even some L-forms discovered recently that could survive an environment of isopropyl alcohol? I might be entirely wrong about that.

>>7668947
If I contract the flu, and it manages to kill me, chances are I was close to being dead already.

>>7668874
The diseases which vaccines prevent are more likely to kill you than autism.

lol @ healthy adults getting a flu shot. what kind of sissy ass bitch does that. "ohhhnooo.. im so scared of getting the sniffles" let the immune system take care of it, and if it cant, let nature and darwinian selection take care of them. weak fucks should perrish.

>>7668692
/sci/ got to many of em

There's no point if you don't have a weak immune system and/or pulmonar pathology.

I've read someone here saying some stupid shit about herd immunity. Just so you know, flu fucking changes every year and there're multiple active ones at every moment, so it makes no fucking sense to vaccine to prevent one type when the other ones are still around.

>>7669052
It's funny how confident you are in your delusions about reality.

it's a question of statistics. Vaccines are good because on average, with a given pupulation that has 30% vaccinated you'll prevent about 10-15% of flu contractions per year. You're saving many lives. Regardless of you're shit opinions, vaccines save lives. Unfortunately not yours, because you're an ass.

>>7669052
Flu vaccines protect against multiple strains of the virus

>>7668848
please submit a DNA sample for sequencing so we can isolate the mutant gene responsible for the inability to read greentext.
we'll name the gene Impl and you'll get a mention as the first confirmed human case of Impl-

>>7668945
we've had vaccines against bacteria for ages. viz. tetanus shot

>>7668834
As cold as this sounds why are we fucking over natural selection in this way? If we just let the weak die there would be only strong people/immune systems left and we wouldnt have to worry about herd immunity. I mean, without natural selection we wouldnt be here. Imagine if monkeys had discovered how to prevent illness and escape the food chain, we would all be flinging poop right now.

>>7669104
you're overlooking the Red Queen effect.
it's not as simple as "everyone in the population is now resistant to all these illnesses". the pathogens are constantly evolving as well, so new vulnerabilities are constantly being exposed. also, sometimes the resistance causes its own problems; see sickle cell anemia. finally, it's not a case of "more immunity, better immunity". a stronger and more alert immune system means better protection against pathogens, but it also means a greater risk of autoimmune disorders.

also, we subverted natural selection as soon as we started feeding the elderly. we haven't been governed by those usual rules for hundreds of thousands of years, and we've benefited as a species from it.

I never got that shit before, and I've never gotten the flu either.

There is no point to this thread, everyone shilling for it is probably a pharmacist or something.

>>7669139
>I don't need bo book learnin to tell me I ain't got no in'flenza

>>7669128
Feeding the elderly isnt subverting the evolutionary aspect of natural selection though. Those elderly people were successful enough to make it to that age and be in a position to have someone feeding them. Someone who would have died much earlier (before reproductive age), but didnt because of vaccines or whatever the case may be, is fucking over evolutionary natural selection by being allowed a chance to spread defective genes. Also, even though pathogens are constantly evolving, vaccines arent doing anything for viruses weve never encountered before. A stronger immune system on the other hand, would. Sickle cell enimea is entirely beneficial when only one parent passes the gene. We just caught it relatively shortly after it evolved as a trait so of course there are going to be problems just like any mutation. If we would stop saving those who have the detrimental form of sickle cell, in several generations we would be left with nothing but better evolved humans. Im not agaist helping people, but if life is trying to kill you off there is, often times, a reason for it.

>>7669104
Actually, you're still training your immune system through vaccination; that's the whole point.
Besides, you're saying it's fine to let polio run rampant, after all, someone won't have neurological problems, right?

>>7669154
The difference is the flu cannot be completely erradicated like polio.

>>7669139
>I've never gotten the flu
bubble boy detected

>>7669149
you misunderstand.
evolutionary fitness is all about passing one's own genes on, not being physically fit or living to a ripe old age. caring for the sick and infirm, whether or not they are related to us, breaks out of that particular paradigm; they are not going to reproduce, and caring for them only takes resources away from those that will, but we care for them anyway. (yes, grandparent effect, blah blah blah, but that's only a small part of it.)

and please please PLEASE stop attributing intent or teleology to evolution. fucksake, you're halfway to being a creationist if you think there's some guiding hand of nature.

>>7669157
Your hypothetical ubermensch can be, at any given time specially during trauma induced infection, vulnerable to opportunistic pathogens, e.g. flu.

>>7669060
>only 10-15% reduction
>risking side-effects
>costs of the vaccine
>have to vaccinated every year
>still not protected from the flu
It's not worth it if you don't have a weak immune systen and/or

Literally causes autism.

>>7669164
At which point he would no longer be needed and one of the other 7 billion people on this planet would take his place. I mean if there is a known virus with the capability to wipe out the entire human race, sure develop a vaccine and give it to everyone possible. With the flu though, are we really in a position to say vaccines are good for us in the long run?We just started using them, whos to say we wont get screwed in the long run by some consequence of vaccinating against everything we possibly can? Nature, on the other hand, has been playing this game for thousands of years. Vaccinate against potential world ending viruses sure, but the flu is only going to kill off those who probably shouldnt be reproducing anyway. We cant tell them not to reproduce, because that would be wrong, but them replicating shit genes is undeniably bad for us in the long run.

>>7669213
This is bullshit. Vaccines and autism diagnosis are only linked because one of the warning signs for autism is an unusual reaction to pain. Kid gets poked with a tiny needle and freaks the fuck out, or doesnt notice, and they decide to test for autism knowing the kid shows signs of it. Corelation does not prove causation and autism is being diagnosed in higher numbers in correlation with more vaccines because getting poked with a needle is practically a test for autism.

>>7669191
>only 10-15% reduction
It's typically much more, and would be even greater if everyone got them
>risking side-effects
Almost no one gets serious ones
>costs of the vaccine
Less than the cost of missing an hour of work, much less several days of work, much less several days of work and also causing your co-workers to miss several days

Anyone on /sci/ isn't actually retarded enough to believe that vaccines cause autism and actually contain pure mercury in it.

Right?

>>7669162
Are you more fucking retarded than the anti-vaxers? Where did he imply belief in intent let alone say anything about evolution that is based off of intent?

>>7669488
> Thiomersal is an organomercury compound.
> Preservatives are composited of %50 mercury
> Mercury is highly lethal when mixed into the bloodstream and the toxic effects include damage to the brain, kidneys and lungs.

oh gee i don't know why they believe vaccines have mercury in them. surely they should all beg to shoot their kids with this stuff.

>>7669213
explains this thread then

>>7669406
Flu shots are free where I am.

>Less than the cost of missing an hour of work, much less several days of work, much less several days of work and also causing your co-workers to miss several days
Collectivist delusions. This is a great example of how people's capacity for thought actually declines if you teach them about cognitive biases. They work around their heuristics and end up producing a poorer result while believing it's more accurate.

>>7669506
>compound

I think you missed that part.

>meat is toxic because cell membranes and DNA are made up of compounds containing phosphorus

This is how retarded you are.

>>7669506
The institute of medicine, World Health Organization, Food and Drug Administration, and Centers for Drug Control all have done studies on whether or not thiomersal causes autism and there is literally no correlation. Sure it's poisonous in copious amounts, but it's an antifungal and antiseptic compound.

Hydrogen Peroxide is poisonous, too, but it's still used as an antiseptic and is also produced by antigens in your body.

>>7669522
Meat is toxic because it contains n-glycolylneuraminic acid.

>>7669522
> hurrr ur retarded
ingesting meat isn't toxic so ingesting mercury isn't right ? so why don't you swallow a few grams of mercury to prove you're right and save the world from one more imbecile.

ill be waiting

>>7669526
>hurr meat gives you a 23% chance of getting cancer!

Are you one of those faggots? Because the 18% increase just means that instead of having a 5% chance of getting cancer just by being in Earth's atmosphere, an 18% increase to 5% is 5.9%.

>>7669531
red meat*

>>7669530
Your argument is approximately 33.33% more retarded than the anon's comment you replied to.

>>7669531
Statistics are just as apt to bring delusion as greater clarity.

I'm more interested in the underlying mechanics and how chronic inflammation impacts bodily systems as a whole. It's quite clear we have a potent immune response to neu5gc, and it's also clear how readily it can cross over cell membranes and the digestive system.

Your statistical analysis isn't valid if it ignores the reality of what you're trying to represent and evaluate. Good luck controlling for all the variables involved there, and good luck with those in vivo studies meant to reflect real world conditions.

>>7669530
I'd swallow some non-toxic mercury compounds which are not mercury.

Just like I would swallow certain phosphorus compounds while I certainly wouldn't swallow elemental phosphorus.

I genuinely can't tell whether I'm being trolled here or something or didn't articulate my point well enough.

>>7669536
im just waiting him to mix some of that sweet innocent mercury in his bloodstream so I can witness the death of a retard.

>>7669538
You implied meat is deadly. Show me proof that meat is deadly and should be outlawed because it's toxic.

>>7669540
>I genuinely can't tell whether I'm being trolled here or something or didn't articulate my point well enough.
The internet sucks.

>>7669545
I didn't imply any of those things. You said meat is toxic because x, I said meat's actual toxicity is because y.

>>7669540
> mercury
> non-toxic
> I'd swallow some mercury compounds which are not mercury.
> am i being trolled
not at all, i was just kidding. don't mind those people, just swallow some mercury please.

>>7669551
Irrelevant, the compound you mentioned supposedly causes cancer and you didn't have any other supporting argument on top of that so it's safe to assume that's what you were talking about.

>>7669530

>learn to read
>leave /sci/ forever

choose one.

>>7669553
Oh my god you really don't have any reading comprehension, do you?

>>7669540

they are dumb beyond redemption anon

>>7669556
> the compound you mentioned supposedly causes cancer
Right.

>you didn't have any other supporting argument on top of that
There was nothing more to be said.

>so it's safe to assume that's what you were talking about.
No, it's not suddenly alright to (wilfully) confuse something that came from you, with something that came from me.

>>7669559
hey ! meat is toxic but we all eat it and we're all fine right ? that proves mercury is fine to ingest too.
There, indisputable proof. Now don't be a fucking pussy and drink some mercury already.

>>7669568
please become a tripfag so I can filter your epic troll posts.

>>7669563
are you shitposting irrelevantly again because you're pussying out ?

>>7669567
The chance the compound increases the risk of getting cancer is so minuscule that whatever you're trying to convey here doesn't fucking matter at all. Your argument isn't going anywhere with the meat to mercury analogy unless you can prove me wrong.

>>7669568

you're only digging a bigger hole anon...

reading comprehension isn't quite your thing eh?

>>7669575
oh it's not a troll. mercury is safe to mix into your bloodstream %200 proven by FDA, CIA and YMCA.
don't buy into the bullshit of those paranoid freaks and drink mercury. its absolutely fine. shoot your kids with it while you're at it btw.

>>7669581
> i'd drink some mercury
> ok drink it
> ..u-uh u got some reading comprehensions rite ?
thats what I thought.

>>7669579
I don't understand what you're trying to say here. There's no clever analogy. There's no comparison. Each statement is standalone.

The world is a hazy and uncertain place, you need to factor all elements into one whole to adequately assess the risk of something occurring. Meat consumption potentiates carcinogenesis, and the chance that this cancer gains a foothold. Both of these aspects are mediated by much more.

If you want some decent literature on the topic, I could provide that. Otherwise I'm really not sure what you want.

>>7669586
>>7669582
Are you drunk or high? I'm serious. The only times I went tried to piss off people so hard was when intoxicated.

>>7669568
>>7669582
The argument's thesis that you aren't understanding is that mercury compounds != elemental mercury.

You seem to have some tunnel vision here where you think that anything containing the word mercury automatically makes it bad.

>>7669591
dude...why don't you quit stalling like a coward faggot and drink some FDA approved mercury already. we're all waiting here.

>>7669586

nobody can be this willfully stupid... have fun in your troll thread faggot

>>7669595
> Organomercury refers to the group of organometallic compounds that contain mercury
I mean I don't know why I have to do the peoples googling for them. You know you're on a science board right ?

>>7669606
> even more shitposting with zero arguments and full ad-hominems
*yawn*

>>7669607
Fuck, I can see how you misunderstood my post. I'm very aware that the compounds have the element in them, I'm not that unaware lol. What I was trying to say is that a compound containing the element doesn't automagically make it bad.

>>7669613
Programmer detected.

>>7669613
> if i eat this arsenic with bread it wont magically make it lethal
ok

>>7669618
lol

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>>7669618
God damnit.

>>7669623
>>7669619
you never fail to amaze everyone with your astounding arguments. thanks for a thread full of enlightment

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>>7669618
i lold

this fucking thread

>>7669625
"lol" meant your post was funny.
I thought it was humorous.

>>7669623

they're trolling anon. just sage and abandon thread.

>>7669628
which unfortunately makes up the majority of your "argumentative" contribution to defend your point.

>>7669632
I don't understand. "Funny" isn't meant degradingly, or as though the argument is "laughable". It just looks funny in a grander sense, it transcend the context of this thread.

You're making me feel bad.

Let's have a summary of this thread.
>ad hominem
>one faggot who is either trolling or literally can't read and connect the dots
>four people actually trying to argue for and against with decent points
>two people fighting over petty posts

Good thread. Let's just let this one die.

>>7669640
well if only you were capable of making a scientific discussion or something rather than "lols" or witty remarks.
oh well.
>>7669641
> still madposting with no arguments
there there...

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>>7668692
I fucking hate them. I had to get the shot because I'm a medfag and my job requires it. First of all, they're a crap shoot. Second, "the herd" is inoculated so weak bitches (old fucks and babbies) won't die. I say if you're so genetically inferior that you will die by contracting the seasonal flu, then you should probably just fucking die.

the question is really
>how much do you really believe in the scientific ability of biologists of all people weighed against your health?

and if you've ever met the kind of student who goes into biology, it becomes immediately obvious to never take any vaccine

>>7669831
Yeah, anyone who's genetically inferior enough to be a baby or an old person deserves to get fucked!

It gave me autism.

>>7668692

they gave you autism

>>7668692
They gave >>7669848 autism.

>>7668842
As an asthmatic, you probably should know that triggers differ from person to person, like exercise, allergy, pollution, or illness induced asthma. My son has illness induced asthma.

>>7669393
Like it or not, you need to know whether a vaccine is effective or not, and knowing its effectiveness helps you make a decision to administer the vaccine on an otherwise strong, but currently ill patient.

Now, if your argument is completely biased towards eugenics, you need to evaluate human society as a whole. Would you rather have an ubermensch with subpar general knowledge, or have a man that, through sheer numbers and higher capacity for sharing different ideas and/or more manpower, has made the amount of progress we have today?

Because having a moderate population of healthy, thinking men will never outperform a numerically greater one with less "brain", but a fuckload of manpower for great thinkers to dispose of.

>>7668845
There are mists.
>>7668884
I doubt the effectiveness of a narrow spectrum approach to fighting a family of viruses where cross-immunity is rarely existent. If I vaccinate against the flu, another type will still be carried by me and probably infect my infant son because "the flu" is constantly changing. It's not like polio where you can vaccinate against it and be relatively certain you won't catch or carry polio. Plenty of people get the flu vaccine and still get another flu virus. I'm all for the anti-vaccer-hate bandwagon, but the flu isn't one of those essential viruses that can really be effectively vaccinated against AND what's deadly one year may not be as dangerous as the one that didn't make it into the soup. It's vaccination theater.

>>7669831
If you're bitching because you need to apply a yearly vaccine of questionable quality and backing research, I feel you, man.

If you're bitching because of the pain: man the fuck up, fucking bitch ass pussy faggot.

>>7669911
>moderate
7 billion is not a moderate number, and the statistical difference between 7 billion and 6.9 billion is slim enough that it renders your arguement invalid.

>>7669911
Also vaccines do not work on someone who is already ill. They prevent illness, not cure it.

>>7669490
right here:
>if life is trying to kill you off there is, often times, a reason for it.

>>7670112
sometimes yes, sometimes no.
rabies vaccine won't do you any good if you're already showing symptoms
ZMapp has been effective in people suffering from Ebola though.

>>7668692
if you want to be good goyim yearlu flu vaccine is prerequisite.

>>7670108
I meant moderate as in a hypothetical society where you vaccinate no one, and the strong survive.
And by ill, I didn't mean infwcted by flu, but by another pathogen that can make him more vulnerable to flu, considering the lack of IgG against the virus.

>>7668874
can't catch autism twice anon

Waste of money.

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>>7671560

>>7668692
Only desirable because we're too lazy to develop a treatment, so we force everyone to forego their right to refuse medical treatments.

I've always been really easy to get sick, this year was the first year I ever got a flu vaccination. It was also the first year I didn't get sick at all. I'm not saying that it was the vac as there could have been other reasons, but I will be sure to get one again next year to see how that goes.

Studies have shown little to no effect on flu vaccines and reduction in transmission rates, they only reduce the severity of symptoms (in some cases making it easier to spread because you don't know you're infected, in other cases making it harder to spread because your body is doing less of the things that the virus makes you do to spread itself, runny nose, etc).

There are no cures to any of the influenza viruses if there were then if wouldn't be something that was handed out every year.

You can stop shilling for pharmaceutical companies now.

>>7668930

>blah blah blah unsourced bullshit, said the retarded sheep.

I haven't seen a single one of you faggots say something that implies you understand how vaccination works, either from the Anti-Vax or Pro-Vax sides.

>tfw /sci/ is a bunch of physics and math undergrads discussing shit they think they understand about biology