Serious question

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check this out. great read.

>>38140622
Thanks comrade, I'll look into it.

Taking an introductory economics course would be an effective way if you have the option available to you. If not I would suggest a book called The Road to Serfdom by F.A. Hayek.

>>38140604
Why stop being a commie if they're so convincing?

>>38140604
Why would a doctor or anyone with a higher profession work for the same pay as a low-skilled lazy sack of shit? They wouldn't. Communism doesn't work and will never work. You can't refute this.

>>38140604

Are you the 'soviet union wasn't real communism' type or the 'the imperialist media made up everything about how bad the soviet union was' type of communist?

Remind yourself of all the genocides, realise terror of the masses will lead to mass killings, fact that it doesn't matter if you're a class enemy or not what's going to happen if you get named in a denunciation, we're all equal comrade but I need 5 dachas while you host 5 families in your apartment, making sure not to forget your ration card when you go out for food, getting a knock on the door at midnight to be carted off because one of the families you share in your apartment wants your room and said you were a spy.

This kind of stuff but don't worry this time it'll be different.

>>38140653
Do you actually believe everyone had the exact same salary in the USSR?

>>38140653
>Why would a doctor or anyone with a higher profession work for the same pay as a low-skilled lazy sack of shit?
The whole point is that you work for what you're passionate about.

>They wouldn't. Communism doesn't work and will never work. You can't refute this.
There is no money or wage labor under Communism you dumb shit.

>>38140682
>genocides
But fascism and capitalism have them too, why is it only "uncool" when commies do it?

>>38140604

Communism is a textbook example of a government or ideal that requires people to not be greedy assholes.

>>38140693
What if people are passionate about the wrong things? I'm passionate about sitting in the park and reading all day. I work as an economist but only because I'm paid to. What is my place in a communist society?

Without money how do I get things that I want?

>>38140702
It isn't but I don't pretend they aren't real.

No money and no wage slaving sounds like a great idea. Unfortunately """communist""" faggots who can't do anything but stick red stars and hammers and sickles everywhere are never going to get us there.

>>38140723
The wall.

What would you expect?

>>38140604
Working without material reward as incentive is boring. If there's no way to get rich, you can bet I'm doing fuckall at work and jacking off to anime when I get home.

>>38140723
>What if people are passionate about the wrong things? I'm passionate about sitting in the park and reading all day.
Then you do that. Just as how farming technology has become so efficient that only a tiny portion of the population needs to engage in it, so to with all jobs. The point of capitalism is the socialization of labor and the development of the productive forces of society.

In short, very few people have to work. The labor that must be done will be done by those who are passionate and well educated about their duties. Culture and the arts will flourish.

>>38140723
>Without money how do I get things that I want?
You work with your fellow members of your Commune to to state your needs and wants, and work with your fellow man from there to achieve it.

>>38140735
Actually we've gotten there before plenty of times, the issue is porky who doesn't like it very much.

He wants to continue to exploit mother Earth without opposition.

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>>38140604
non-white robot here

My being a communist consists of listening to this music while fantasizing about killing racists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R-2pG78mSo

>>38140693

>The whole point is that you work for what you're passionate about.

Go find me 10 people who are passionate about serving fast food or guarding a prison. 90% of practical jobs are things that most people aren't going to be passionate about, and people are going to need to be assigned to those jobs. At which point favors and bribes happen at the whole system falls to shit.

>There is no money or wage labor under Communism you dumb shit.

Everything has intrinsic value you half retard. A doctor would still be "wealthier" than his contemporaries because he or she would have access to a script pad, which he could offer medication for favors or preferential treatment.

Communism doesn't work because it relies on people doing their jobs reasonably competently and not abusing the innate power that comes with their position.

>>38140761
My company wouldn't pay my salary if I wasn't worth something. If I stop receiving it and just become a gentleman of leisure, that's something of value lost to my company isn't it? They aren't paying me for fun. They wouldn't be paying me if my labor wasn't necessary. Once I walk, they suffer for it. Then their operations become less effective and then society as a whole suffers for it.

You didn't really give a specific answer to my second question. If I want a new book to read I go to my local bookshop and buy it. Under a system without money how do I get a new book to read?

>>38140778
In hunter gatherer tribes and shit. We can never get there in mass societies with specialized labor.

>Communists LITERALLY support dictatorship
>They LITERALLY believe the dictatorship will eventually end

Not even /pol/ but giving a select few people absolute power and trusting them to step down when the nation is finally ready embrace true communism is just pants on head retarded.

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>>38140604
You should look at the horrors that every Communist state has inflicted upon their own people in the name of "progress." Communism cannot stand without a totalitarian government propping it up and tends to crumble in the end anyways, even with a totalitarian grip on the state.

There are three "Communist" nations left. China and Vietnam, which have gone head-over-heels for capitalism and are only Communists in name, and Cuba, a shitty island people will risk drowning just to get away from.

I'm sure millions of people in those Soviet and otherwise mass graves thought Communism was going to turn out well too.

tl;dr Communism only has the answers until it is in power and you question them

Then they just shoot you.

>>38140786
Fuck off nigger faggot and get crushed under the ever approaching boot of anarcho capitalism

>>38140889
>thinking that an ideology based on decentralization will ever be able to win against ideologies which feature centralization

How are you retards going to oppose any threat to your welfare when you want to tear down everything? You'll be run over by the first hostile party like the Greek Epicureans were.

>>38140816
>Go find me 10 people who are passionate about serving fast food or guarding a prison. 90% of practical jobs are things that most people aren't going to be passionate about, and people are going to need to be assigned to those jobs. At which point favors and bribes happen at the whole system falls to shit.
Why the fuck would people be passionate about fast food? We'll automate that shit. And do it in record time without having to worrying about the slow, inefficient market to slowly adopt it.

>Communism doesn't work because it relies on people doing their jobs reasonably competently and not abusing the innate power that comes with their position.
What do you even mean by this? A doctor will have more things as he needs that for his voluntary work.

I hope you realize that Utopian Socialism is dead, and true total equality is impossible. The whole point of Scientific Socialism espoused by that of Marx and Engels is that goals like "total equality" are not to be achieved. Not even goals themselves are to be reached. Communism itself shall be the natural conclusion from the current premises of the material conditions.

>>38140825
>My company wouldn't pay my salary if I wasn't worth something.
Your company pays you enough to keep you alive and content enough so you don't get pissy and overthrow the current system. A company can never pay you as much as your labor is worth, or else they would make no profit and hence no capital. They're exploiting you. All companies do. That's the whole point of making surplus profit!

>You didn't really give a specific answer to my second question. If I want a new book to read I go to my local bookshop and buy it. Under a system without money how do I get a new book to read?
You go online and log a request somewhere that you wish for a book to be delivered. Or you put out a request to fellow commune members, or the local book club or where they currently hand out books.

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>>38140604
>They seem to have an answer to everything

Don't be fooled, the only arguments they have are literal copy paste quotes from their little red book.

>>38140943
Not even the anon you're replying too but if working fast food or some other simple job weren't looked down upon in our society I'd be happy to do those things.

I work construction because most of it is simple work. I take the chance to sweep and mop up job sites whenever I can just because carrying out long, tedious, but easy tasks is kind of soothing.

If I had the chance to try to make people the best fast food I could without being laughed at by my peers I'd happily do that shit.

>>38140842
There are many documented examples such as the Paris Commune, the Bavarian Soviet Republic, the Hungarian Soviet Republic, various Communes in eastern China (which were later liquidated by the likes of the state), and the Anarchist Communes in Spain during the civil war.

These were all short lived, yes due to foreign pressures such as porky. The point remains it has been demonstrated before. It is possible.

>>38140943
>Heh now that a capitalist system has invented everything we need (automation, modern medicine, transport and entertainment) we can finally embrace true Communism


This angers me greatly.

>>38140988
'Capitalism' doesn't invent anything, the workers do.

>>38140985
Under Communism, basic jobs will be valued and applauded.

Take for instance a janitor. Janitors are looked at poorly, down upon, and often are considered stupid or even failure. Yet they play the vital role of keeping things clean which is necessary for modern urban society. Same for sewage workers and trash collectors.

>>38141018
Capitalism give incentive to the workers to invent. It also gives businesses incentive to increase profits and invent automated systems.

Communism sucks because it's too idealistic.

The only real solution to destroying capitalism is fascism. Fascism is hated because capitalists realized it's their number one threat, and communists hated it because Mussolini chucked their ass in jail.

>>38140943
We both grant that my labor has worth. Let's say it's worth $120,000 per year. Let's say a company offers me a salary of $80,000 per year. They pay me and net $40,000 from my labor. Let's say another company wants me. They offer me $85,000. It still behooves them to do this. They still net $35,000 from me. At what point does it no longer make sense for a company to offer me more money? When they are offering me $120,000. Up until I am being paid for the full product of my labor a firm benefits from hiring me. This is the way all prices (and a wage is merely a specific type of price) are set in a free market. The market automatically aligns prices so that they reflect the actual value of the underlying good. If they don't they get bid up or down until they do.

After I log that request who delivers the book and why? Who maintains the website where I log the request and why?

>>38140622
>>38140639
Honestly that is the problem, the communist one is a different way of looking at the world. The basis of Marxist thought is that employees should have more say in the business, workplace democracy. It can work and has in the past, it is usually sabotaged my communist regimes who, instead of focusing on economic commune focus on creating a representative system that will always exist rather than die and let full communism rise

>>38141024
Except as we can easily see from the literature that Communist countries have produced that human beings are human beings and the lowly are mocked while those who can't settle for a simple life try to climb the ladder of power.

Just like in a capitalist system, since they're both run by humans, except under capitalism you get to choose who and where you work for as you please.

>>38140604
Marxism is the most darwinian political philosophy. It doesn't tolerate dissent, the competition has to be wiped out completely.

>>38141049
>Communism sucks because it's too idealistic.
Communism is materialist at it's base. I assume you've never learned of Historical or Dialectical Materialism, no?

>>38141042
>Capitalism give incentive to the workers to invent.
What are you talking about? Everyone is so tired from their 9 to 5 jobs that all they can do is go home and watch mindless entertainment, sleep, or do drugs and have sex. True genuine culture has been destroyed and replaced with mass produced, easily-consumable crap. The worker has no genuine passion or drive to create and innovate, only to get their pay check and not piss off their boss.

>>38141055
Full communism is a non-existent fantasy.

>>38141082
have you ever read marx

>>38141098
So how, exactly, has humanity advanced so far since the industrial revolution? I'm sorry if you're lazy, but quite obviously these problems aren't afflicting everyone.

I just read through this entire thread
Go live in Cuba you pinko cunts

>>38140988
Ironically, according to Marx communism was supposed to evolve from the most advanced capitalist societies. Unfortunately the societies that took up Marxism with the most zeal were the dirt poor undeveloped agrarian shitholes.

>>38140604
>They seem to have an answer to everything
This should be the thing that turns you away from communism.

>>38141051
It's the other way around anon.
>Company A pays their workers 100,000$ a year
>Company B pays their workers 50,000$ a year
>Company B makes more profit since they don't pay their workers as much, they get to expand and buy out more stores
>More people have to work with Company B since they offer more jobs, people at company B can't risk quitting to join company A or they face the threat of poverty
>Company A in order to competes pays their workers only 80,000$ a year. What will their workers do? Go to Company B and get paid even less?

It's a race to the bottom.

>>38141098
"True genuine culture". So are you into the Socialist Realism style stuff, or are you into the degenerate modern art stuff?

>>38141098
Just because most people don't invent doesn't mean none of them do. There have been more technological advances allowing for more comfort of the average citizen than ever before in human history. Basic education and monetary incentive are the major reasons for this.

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>>38141098
You sure are negative about the world, anon. Do you even have a job? I know I'm tired when I get off work but I'm also happy to have the chance to work because it allows me to buy things I desire.

Also posting the exact moment in time that the Soviets started to crumble and lose faith in their own system. Hint: it's because they couldn't believe "oppressed" Americans could produce so much versus their system.

>>38141147
"degenerate modern art stuff" flourishes because of capitalism

>communists getting btfo'd itt
I like it.

>>38141049
>Fascism
is literally just a more authoritarian form of capitalism

Get a job in a highly regulated or highly taxed area and try to stay a commie.

For me it was my wife working in insurance sales. She ended up making 30k the first year and we had to pay 9k in taxes due to some bs shit in my state, I paid the fed assuming 20% taxes and then got fucked with a huge bill.

>>38141115
They've largely advanced by people experimenting on their own time for the gain of knowledge and fame. One famous dude we all know is Nikola Tesla, who made new ideas about power and fucking died broke.

However, there is something important you bring up. It is true that capitalism has spurred productive development. It's the system that has created mass abundance today. Marx wrote on this, himself. However, society has become properly developed. Innovation of today is fucking with the political system to lower taxes on business or finding a new, mindless consumer product to sell that has no real worth other than eating up our planet's valuable resources (but that people still buy).

>>38141176
Actually most people in the post Soviet states and the Eastern Bloc have said in surveys that life under Communist rule was better.

>>38141145
>getting some shit labour job
Oops hehe

>>38141219
How about you show us those surveys, anon? And have you considered that they murdered all the people who protested totalitarian rule?

If most people thought life was better why did so many countries decided to hang up the old Soviet party hat and break away almost all at once?

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Communism is THE robot ideology. Hell, Marx was just a big economics nerd who sat all day philosophing about Capital and hanging out with his nerd friends at the book club. Best part is that we can even convert females to it (unlike /pol/sters). I recommend checking out Finnish Bolshevik and Xexizy on Youtube. Capitalism seems alluring only because it's what the status quo is, and because we live in the top imperialist countries who exploit the third world and the planet's resources.

>>38141184
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_Manifesto

Sounds totally capitalist to me.

>>38141145
This exposes the underlying fallacy that forms the basis of all of your thinking. It isn't a question of firms. It's a question of people. My labor has a definite value. Why would company A pay me $100,000 per year if I'm worth $50,000? They deserve to go out of business. Why would I work for $50,000 per year if I can work for $100,000 per year? I'm responsible for my own poverty. The situation that you've described doesn't exist because it cannot be sustained. Companies don't set their wages arbitrarily. They pay employees based on what they're worth. Why wouldn't they?

You didn't answer my question concerning who does the boring job of delivering my goods when they aren't paid for it. Nor who runs Amazon as an act of charity.

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>>38141207
>wage slaving with taxes that go to jamal
>communism

>>38141265
Why criticize imperialism when imperialism is the only reason half the planet doesn't have slave markets anymore?

>but muh wage slaves

>>38141265
>because we live in the top imperialist countries who exploit the third world and the planet's resources.
tell this guy>>38141176

>>38141254
>How about you show us those surveys, anon?

https://www.thetrumpet.com/13769-more-than-half-of-russians-want-the-soviet-union-resurrected

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2010/04/28/hungary-better-off-under-communism/

I'll find more.

>>38141267
>not knowing that Mussolini and Hitler did the literal opposite of that thereby changing the historic meaning of the word

fascists are classified as far-right for a reason anon

>>38141269
Yeah lol the children working in sweatshops in Asia live like that because their parents were lazy xD

>>38140653
Workplace democracy, more money coming into their industry, more they get. Government control is only needed as a volunteer organization in cases of national emergency (war, mass plague etc)

>>38141254
God Easter Germany was such a terrible pla-

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/homesick-for-a-dictatorship-majority-of-eastern-germans-feel-life-better-under-communism-a-634122.html

>>38141292
>imperialism is the only reason half the planet doesn't have slave markets anymore
what? explain that shit

>>38141254
Man, thank god the Soviet Union collapsed. Oh wait, people miss it. They think they were better off under it:

https://www.rt.com/news/ussr-collapse-mistake-poll-585/

>>38141219
So capitalism hasn't retarded innovation in the manner that you've described. Where was the innovation before the adoption of laissez faire economics in western society? Why was innovation stifled during the centuries of feudalism in Europe?

Let's get to the fundamental problem of your ideology. It's expressed in a few things that you've said: "However, society has become properly [I assume you mean improperly] developed. Innovation of today is fucking with the political system to lower taxes on business or finding a new, mindless consumer product to sell that has no real worth..." Here is where I fundamentally disagree. You don't get to decide what has worth to me. I get to decide what I want to buy. I get to decide what has worth to me. I refuse to submit to your judgment when it comes to how I live my life. This is what communism means. The subjection of all of us to the whims and judgments of a few.

>>38141324
Yeah, those bustling free market utopias in Beijing. Are you joking?

>>38141335
Three words--"Scramble for Africa"

Then keep in the mind the even more superior, even better long-term colonization of the Western Hemisphere, which eradicated barbarian societies like the Aztecs and Maya and reformed them into civilized societies.

Not to mention the huge progress made in women's right through imperialism in China, India, and Africa. If you believes in human rights and women's rights (like many socialists do), you have imperialism to thank for spreading superior Western values outside of the West, and should demand more imperialism to colonize the world again.

Remember, Israel is a Western, secular, egalitarian society while the Arab world around it are theocratic, repressive, racist, sexist shitholes.

>>38141365
yeah i suppose nikola tesla, albert einstein and leonardo da vinci wouldnt give a shit about science unless they got a paycheck for it.

>>38141330
Birger is by no means an uneducated young man. He is aware of the spying and repression that went on in the former East Germany, and, as he says, it was "not a good thing that people couldn't leave the country and many were oppressed."

So, they don't release any data on who they polled, exactly where they polled, what age group they polled, and can only get quotes from one guy who admits some of the stuff they did was really super fucked up?

A lot of old folks want it back because they expected their pensions would still be there. That's right, old people who desire the Soviets to still exist only do so because they want that sweet, sweet "free money."

>>38141365
>So capitalism hasn't retarded innovation in the manner that you've described.
It didn't in the age of booming capitalism. Today it is most definitely retarding growth. Capitalism has out lived it's use. Society has been industrialized and developed. The next stage is really to commence.

>>38141365
I meant properly developed. Society today produces vast over abundances of goods.

>The subjection of all of us to the whims and judgments of a few.
That's you under capitalism! You're turned from a valuable human being into a commodity to make more money for porky! Porky decides if you live or die, and you can't vote out porky. He controls the state, and he controls the business.

>>38140604
>How do I stop being a commie?
You can't, if you ever fell for the commie meme in the first place you're a two digit IQ moron and you can't be helped.

>>38141407
Well okay that's a first...

>>38141314
"Far-right" is a meaningless slur, although fit for some of reactionary/white supremacist bullshit which gets called fascism nowadays.

Fascism, 3rd Position, National Bolshevism, are neither right nor left. Communist academics only called it right-wing to advance their goals.

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>>38141414
I also posted other polls.

Regardless, it's silly to dismiss it as "they want free money!" when there is clearly an a yearning for the old system.

>>38141353
>>38141305
>Russians want the USSR back

No shit, it was the most powerful Russia has ever been, that's like other Europeans saying they miss their Empire.

>>38141330
This one says only 8% were in love with it, it also says most of its supporters are from people too young to experience it and who only grew up listening to their parents nostalgia.

>>38141305
This Hungarian one is also misleading, the 70% thing joining the EU has weakened their country, only 42% disapprove of moving away from Communism.


Read your own links commie.

>>38140604
by taking pride in your race and nation

>>38141407
>Not to mention the huge progress made in women's right through imperialism in China, India, and Africa. If you believes in human rights and women's rights (like many socialists do), you have imperialism to thank for spreading superior Western values outside of the West, and should demand more imperialism to colonize the world again.
What are you even going on about? It was the Communists who abolished forced marriages and declared women as equals in China.

>>38141410
It doesn't matter how much they care for it, it matters whether they have the freedom and the resources to pursue it. I'll pose my question again. Where were these men in feudal societies? They're talent was wasted because they didn't have the freedom to cultivate it. Care to name a few prolific inventions that came out of the Soviet Union? Any that weren't the product of a massive military industrial complex?

I want these people to have the freedom to pursue their scientific interests, which all of them did in capitalist societies.

>>38140786
anti fa are faggot domestic terrorists

>>38141055
it will never work
humans are not capable of an autonomous system of government and wouldn't be able to continue the knowledge of how to maintain this system without the establishment of a state.
this is literally how civilization started and is evident all throughout history of being the strongest union between people and the only way of establishing the lasting prosperity of them
If you disagree with this you are pants on head retarded and cannot be saved

>>38140604
>every nation that's ever tried to implement communism has rapidly collapsed into famine, mass executions and concentration camps
>literally hundreds of millions of people dead under the banner of communism
>"these guys really have it all figured out!"

anon plz

>>38141531
That doesn't make them bad people

>>38141417
People have been saying this since the mid 1800s. What objective evidence do you have that today is different?

Free markets do not, in general and over the long run, overproduce anything. Idle inventory is a waste of money. What you are again complaining about is people buying things in quantities that you don't approve of. Your complaint is that we don't live in a dictatorship where you get to decide how much and of what types of goods I buy. I'm not interested in your dictatorship.

>>38141265
this xexizy guy looks like a little twink faggot

>>38141470
If you'll read further into why older people desire their Communist state back it does really boil down to the pensions the retired received under the Soviet regime. They paid into them and worked for them expecting they would be there but everything fell apart and they had to go back to work.

You socialists are all the same. You don't want to break your back everyday, you just want other people to do it for you while you sit on a high horse. If you think capitalism is so unfair and unequal why don't you open your wallet to the less fortunate? Oh wait, you won't, because you don't really believe in any of the shit you say.

>>38141486
>No shit, it was the most powerful Russia has ever been, that's like other Europeans saying they miss their Empire.
Why the fuck would people pick a stronger country even if they are far more worse under it? Unless of course... they weren't worse off under it. Strange

>This Hungarian one is also misleading,
94% describes their country economy as bad, not even a majority of them support the transition over to a market economy, and 42% are opposed to the country's move away from Communism.

For being supposedly such a shitty system, it's impressive that in 2010 42% of people want it back.

>>38141581
it kinda does. especially since any one that disagrees a little bit with them is a nazi

>>38141630
>You don't want to break your back everyday, you just want other people to do it for you while you sit on a high horse.
Oh I'm sorry, I don't want to a child laborer in a god damn factory. Oh, I don't think you are either.

Regardless, you truly are cucked if you are ok "breaking your back" so porky can make more money off of your overworked self.

>Free markets do not, in general and over the long run, overproduce anything. Idle inventory is a waste of money.
WHAT?! We literally have warehouses full of shit just collecting dust.

We literally have more homes than homeless people. We produce enough food to feed everyone on Earth and then some yet many still starve.

God you people are disconnected from reality.

>>38141523
The USSR made the first nuclear power plant, won the space race and even contributed to inventing lasers.

>>38140604
>Their arguments are convincing

Oh and here I thought that the world is more economically equal now than at any point ever in history due to capitalism. Must be my mistake.

Commies use capitalist means in order to push their agenda. They are usually fat because capitalist farm food is too abundant while they use their pudgy fingers on their apple phones to try and convince suckers that communism "rocks"

In capitalism the medical industry is now able to help millions and billions of people, due to innovative dances there. Did you know most pharama companies didn't make specialized medicine and treatments 30 years ago due to it being unprofitable?

The world is now more connected more than ever due to the creation of the internet? Information is now at your finger tips that would otherwise be unobtainable before, and lets not forget how it helps practically everyone on the planet. Hint hint microsoft, IBM, and Apple weren't started to be charities.

The planet is able to sustain billions of people now due to farming techniques and equipment that are second to none. John Deere practically helps feed the entire planet, they didn't start out to be a charity.

Literally every aspect of your life and everything good can be traced back to capitalism. Food, medicine, the internet so you could shit post on /r9k/, and even the damn books you read the communist manifesto on.

>>38141673
Oh sorry, meant to reply to >>38141591
with this post.

>>38141675
>that doesn't count!
>capitalism has twinkies! checkmate

>>38141692
>not understanding marxism: the post

>>38141509
Except foot-binding was eradicated because of Western imperialists in China.

And besides, Maoism is not a Chinese philosophy, it's wholly Western in its outlook. It has nothing to do with Confucianism or other Chinese philosophies. Therefore Maoism is also a product of Western imperialism.

>>38141692
>Oh and here I thought that the world is more economically equal now than at any point ever in history due to capitalism. Must be my mistake.

If you unironically believe that you're are LITERALLY retarded.

>>38141675
The USSR also had millions killed and put in camps. Not to mention they had problems landing on the moon. But hey anon if the USSR is so great why not live there? (Oh wait)

>>38141673
Hey man, if you don't want to work that's your deal. At least under capitalism you can sit around being a NEET. Under Communism they'd just carry you off to be shot for not going to your state mandated job.

Meanwhile, Porky pays me a little more than my co-workers because he knows I'm happy to play ball with him instead of half-assing it.

>>38141634
>Being unhappy about the economic situation means they want Communism!

For being as great a system as you claim less than half of the people want it back. A number that is probably declining too.

You have also clearly never met Russians, they absolutely prefer shitty living conditions if it means the Russian people are seen as/are stronger on a global scale. Russians are VERY nationalistic and see everyone around them as potential enemies. They'd adopt any political system if it made them powerful.

>>38141711
>Except foot-binding was eradicated because of Western imperialists in China.
The nationalists that established China after the Qing can hardly say to be more western. But regardless, it was the Commies who abolished forced marriages and declared women equal.

I mean, under Nationalist China women still stayed at home. Under Mao's China, they actually went to school.

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>>38140604
keep loving communism my friend, don't let nu/pol/ swerve you away. it may not ever come to where you live but it is indeed a good economical system to support

>>38141055
I agree, the state's the problem. Best of luck to you comrade, reconsider violent revolution if you're that hard communist (muh NAP) and you've got my blessing.

t. black flag

>>38141710
Feel free to explain it to me then.

>>38141675
Well, all three of these have military applications. I don't dispute that if an entire society is commanded by force to pursue a singular goal (in this case military domination) it may achieve that goal faster than a free society would. In fact a free society may never achieve it. I just don't want to live in such a society where some dictator gets to declare the goal I'm forced to pursue.

In fact though, what you've said is false. The first nuclear reactor came online in Chicago in 1942. The second followed in Oak Ridge Tennessee.

The Soviet Union never saw the kind of commercial applications that the United States enjoyed as a result of the space race. Why would they?

>>38141754
Anarchism is like communism's autistic brother prone to spergrage.

>>38141719
Would you rather live in czarist russia? the soviet union collapsed only because of corruption, and russians hate g*rbatsjov and yeltsin.

>>38141746
>For being as great a system as you claim less than half of the people want it back.
For being such a great system, less than half interviewed want markets! Wow, that sure means they must love capitalist and it's free markets.

>A number that is probably declining too.
Now they're growing up under liberal capitalism. That's strange, they like since that's all they lived under.

Maybe the best people to ask are those who lived under the best system. Crazy idea.

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>>38141713
Oh, my mistake anon! I hope you have a good day!

>>38140786
almost beats this
https://youtu.be/KbBkMG1vFbQ

i'm no commie but they got the best music (military) even though this is from a game.

>>38141782
I'd rather live in capitalist America. Also how did a communist/socialist government collapse due to corruption? I thought they were for the people anon!

>>38140988
>what is historical materialism

read a book faggot

>>38141822
It's kind of amazing how OP still believes in Communism even though all it does is overthrow the ruling class in exchange for a new one.

>>38140786
why do liberals like communism again? communist country's that haven't fallen are not very tolerant of your trans airplane bullshit.

I agree with many socialist arguments but the no borders shit kinda ruins it for me.

Go to /pol/, they'll fuck you up

>>38140604
can i be a NEET under communist rule????

>>38141858
>why do liberals like communism again?
they don't

>>38141758
As a Marxist, it's important to note that capitalism is good. Why? Because it leads to the socialization of labor (creating wage labor and an urbanized proletariat) and leads to the spurr of industrialization and mass over abundance.

Capitalism lead to the development of the productive forces of society. Society is now urban, industrialized, has infrastructure, and the like. This is good, and it's the reason why Russia and China degraded into totalitarianism and as many would say, "state-capitalism". You can't skip from feudalism to socialism. You need a capitalist stage of development. Capitalism is a necessary prerequisite to socialism.

However, we've reached the point where society is sufficiently developed. Literacy rates are very high, most people live in urban cities, there's a ton of food and goods to be had. Capitalism has done it's part, and now it's time to build on it by abolishing certain structures that are no longer necessary. It's no longer necessary to have a boss commanding from above, it's no longer necessary for humans to be doing work that machines can, money and wage-labor are both alienating and now are rendered obsolete due to abundance.

To stick to capitalism would be like to argue to stick to feudalism. After all, we saw mass increases in agricultural production under feudalism, and the basis for medicine and science was founded under feudalism. Surely feudalism must be superior and we must stay the course, right? No! Capitalism is a better alternative, a better system to feudalism, just as socialism is to capitalism.

That's not going into the material conditions for revolution, and honestly my explanation was a very simple one.

>>38141888
But they do, anon. The modern liberal is nothing but a Marxist trying to hide behind social justice.

Liberalism is dead among the Leftists. Stop trying to pretend otherwise.

>>38141673
Now you're just telling falsehoods. We don't have a huge stock of excess homes in this country. We have a shortage driven by excessive regulation on construction.

http://www.urban.org/urban-wire/housing-supply-falls-short-demand-430000-units

We don't have huge excess inventories in this country. In fact economists consider that to be a symptom of recession. It doesn't normally happen. Again, why would it? If you know of a company that is spending money to build things that gather dust I'd encourage you to go into business competing against them.

The last thing you're describing isn't a question of excess supply (neither is the first, really, but I had a different point I wanted to make on the first one), its a question of poverty which you are confusing with people buying "more than they deserve."

>>38141787
The link also says "In no other Central or Eastern European country surveyed did so many believe that economic life is worse now than during the communist era."

>>38140604
The main problem with communist dogma is that the end goal isn't even desirable.

Why do you want equality? Why is that a desirable goal? And I honestly just want someone to come up with a legitimate reason why I have to accept, a priori, that Equality is good because it is good because it is good. Same thing with "liberty".

So the actual end goal of the society is to seize the means of production and to create a classless society - we live in the west, we have no production, mostly service. And as our societies further deindustrialise, how could anyone consider communism viable?

To make a classless society requires force, which makes communism (an anarchistic philosophy by nature) hypocritical. The massive amounts of social engineering to get rid of all attachment and natural familiarity for those like you to create "true Equality" is universally a negative - it's a case of doing something bad to create a worse outcome.

There is no reason to be a communist. Communists are harmful and MUST be physically suppressed.

>>38141176
>wow, look at all this food that will be thrown into dumpsters!

>>38141799
That chart doesn't indicate though that the absolute number of people living in poverty is rising. Proportionally speaking, less people live under poverty but as an absolute, Africa's population is exploding and more and more people who are dying from starvation are having kids.

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>>38141900
do you even know what marxism is or do you just use it as a general term for ideologies you don't like/don't understand?

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>>38140604
>Their arguments are so convincing...They seem to have an answer to everything.

this is the signal that something is wrong. the more answers they claim to have, the fewer they probably do.

>>38141900
>not understanding liberalism: the post

>>38141917
Do you consider anything to be good?

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>>38140604

Serious answer: Read this book.

>>38141930
Yeah, I know what Marxism is. It's a half-completed ideology written by a guy who almost bankrupted his friend Engels when they tried out their ideas.

It allows people to write in just about whatever they please to make a "complete" ideology, hence we see the variants of Stalinism, Leninism, Maoism, so on and so forth. It's junk.

If the Leftists didn't make it so obvious they would have a better chance but the Marxism is starting to seep out their pores for everyone to see.

>>38141946
Enjoy rooting for the establishment of totalitarian regimes while telling yourself the new ruling class will give up their power in the end.

>>38141921
Since 1999 the ABSOLUTE NUMBER of people living in abject poverty has fallen by 50,000,000 per year on average.

https://www.usaid.gov/news-information/speeches/nov-21-2013-administrator-rajiv-shah-brookings-institution-ending-extreme-poverty

>>38141957
Yes, if there is a reason why it could be considered so.
For example, if something provides utility to me, I consider it good. Similarly if it provides utility to those I know.
If it is a part of culture that provides mechanisms for personal behaviour, then it is good. If it provides value metaphysically, then it is good.
Faith is good. Patriotism, honour, respect and courtesy are all good.

But why is Equality or liberty good? You must pass your own test of nihilism

>>38141978
that's a fictional novel

>>38142028
>RRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE IF IT MAKES COMMUNISM LOOK BAD ITS FICTION

Fuck off, Commie. Better dead than red.

>>38140622
Marx's books cover Capitalism and the economy in depth whilst also pointing out the built in flaws.

I wish I wasn't a brainlet

>>38142049
>in depth

So that's why everyone had to fill in the gaping holes in his half-completed ideology, huh? That's why when him and his friend Engels played with their ideas Engels almost went bankrupt, huh?

Communism is morally bankrupt and the only people who still advocate it are those who imagine themselves as being a member of the Party when it comes into power, not considering for a second they might be stuck with cleaning toilets or winding up in a mass grave for not being Communist enough for the hardliners.

Your ideology is shit, Marx is shit, Communism is shit, and you want to push totalitarian governments on people under the guide of liberation.

>>38141984
right so you've never actually read/studied a thing marx wrote. thanks for admitting that there's as much value in discussing marxism with a fish as there is with you.

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>>38142093
*guise

Son I know you've been spending too much time on the internet with your friends in the west but please when you greet the commissar please give him a firm handshake and look him straight in the eyes.

>>38140653
This is the thing that normal capitalist heads seem unable to process. Under communism people aren't required to chase such a petty concept as pay. Specifically under Marxist communism there would be no markets and hence it a piece of paper which sole purpose is to act as exchange is not required. Doctors would still exists because ultimately people would realize that betterment of mankind is more important than a monetary reward. Doctors would hence be more passionate about what they are doing and the overall quality of health would logically go up because everyone is passionate about their role in society.

>>38142093
This is just your run of the mill anti-communist stereotypes, is anyone actually convinced by this?

like, education was free in the USSR and people moved up in society all the time, no one was "stuck" cleaning toilet...You're just ignorant.

>>38140604
>>>/leftypol/
>>>/his/
Go back commie larper

>>38142143
Who cleaned the toilets in the Soviet Union?

>>38142143
>like, education was free in the USSR and people moved up in society all the time
I'm sure the West had better social mobility. I'm sure the gap between the son of a KGB officer or a Nomenklatura boss, and the son of an ex-gulag convict who slaves away in an industrial city on the artic circle was greater than, say, the gap between a rich wall street investor and a plumber here in burgerland.

Biggest question is since communists value "scientific socialism", why do they endlessly cite century-old (or more) arguments and books in favour of their belief? Modern economics doesn't use century-old arguments and books. The only "sciences" which use century-old arguments and books are psuedoscience like scientific racism, creationism, and other nonsense.

>tfw you're a Christian but you think Communists are subhumans undeserving of brotherly love and all deserve to be put in a mass grave just like their victims

Lord, please forgive me for the hate in my heart.

>>38142143
>moved up all the time
True, but the totalitarianism was a bit rough. I know a guy who finished a biology degree in the Soviet Union and was sent to work as a leech breeder.

>>38142093
In a lifetime there is only so much a single person can cover on an idea. I love how you bring up that Engles almost went bankrupt because so did many other great ideas under the capitalist system. I don't understand how you can disagree with the general concept that capitalism is built on unfairness and exploitation. Let's see you come up with a better solution to a system digging its own grave.

>>38142194
Don't worry, the Bible makes it clear that in a Biblical society a Christian state would be killing millions of people, starting with the gays, idolators, witches, and others. I'm sure you could spare a spot for commies too.

>>38142213
Yeah. That's what real Christianity is for whites.

The undying love and turn your cheek bullshit is for non-whites so that they become submissive and can be conquered easier.

>>38142212
>a system digging its own grave

I don't know, anon, life seems to be pretty good right now even though I make less than average.

Unlike you I don't feel entitled to everything and anything. I know if I want something I need to work for it, not mewl about how the government should hand it to me.

>>38142177
Communism didn't work because it was supposed to build upon capitalism not replace it. It's time to adopt it now

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>>38142213
>mfw people think Christian doctrine is still centered around the Old Testament and entirely ignore the New Testament

We had those rules because our hearts are hard and our necks stiff. Thankfully Jesus came to give us a new covenant based on love for one another and for God.

But hey, we're just going to all ignore thou shalt not kill and throw the first stone.

It's easy to tell when someone's entire impress of Christianity is formed by interactions with American literalists.

>>38142137
And what if the correct number of doctors don't come to this enlightened realization?

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Think about it in much simpler terms. Look past the intellectual lingo, look past it all and think of the concepts it's trying to convey in the simplest of ways. Should someone be able to own land? Yes or no? Should someone be able to make a living independently off of said land? Yes or no? Is what divides us as people really at the core only class, or is it more cultural and biologically deeper than that? Lastly, is it feasible, does it honest to God seem realistic, or even plausibly successful? If you answer in a non-commie way to any of these, then you likely need to read into leftist literature more or look into other beliefs and ideologies. This is coming from a former /leftypol/ council communist Luxemburgist, now turned nationalist with a belief in private ownership and enterprise as I've grown older.

>>38142356
Dude Cuba has better doctors than america shut the fuck up

>>38142385
Better educated and trained in some circumstances sure, but are they better supplied to help their people? No.

>>38142356
They will. Sweden and Denmark have 50% taxation (so they're very socialist) on the wealthy(doctors) and they have plenty of doctors.

>>38142385
So you can't answer the question.

In Cuba doctors are banned by the government from leaving the country. I think I've made my point.

>>38142416
Preventing brain drain is a good thing.
The west takes all the good immigrants.

>>38142429
And many of us don't want them here. The thing is, these concepts are formed outside of true Marxist and leftist doctrine, and are in the realm of tyrants. I'm not one to tell Latinos to not stay in their own countries, but the idea of confining workers to a specific region is against Marxist doctrine and shows the spiral of corruption in leftist authoritarian governments.

>>38142429
Maybe there's a reason smart people want to flee to the West. Has that thought occurred to you?

>>38142459
>And many of us don't want them here
Most of you don't want the Saudis to be your allies either. But your government loves them more than you can even imagine.

>>38142468
No one denies the imperialist west is richer...

>>38142481
Yeah if the money was equal everywhere, nobody would go to the west.

>>38141115
>>38141163
Most renowned inventors were either rich or invented something on their jobs, so clearly they had no problems with motivation

>>38142477
Ideally my government would uphold an isolationist foreign policy or only hold alliances with European countries and only allow immigration from European countries, doesn't mean I have any control over it.

>>38140604

Just my two cents: Communism requires a lot of things to go right. Basically, you need a self sufficient economy ready to produce its own goods and the ability to resist outside influence or exploitation.
Latin America is a good example: it had the potential to be economically independent but could not resist superior technologies. In another example, the US did not have self sufficient resources but had the means to fight back against the invasion.

>>38142415
A high tax rate doesn't entail socialism. I've no objection to high taxes as long as they don't destroy market incentives. Doctors in Sweden and Denmark have the opportunity to benefit from the years that they dedicate to school. These countries don't rely on the goodwill of their citizenry. These tax rates are marginal. They're applied only on every additional dollar past a certain point. They are also not 100% taxes. Scandinavian doctors aren't just good samaritans. They're professionals being compensated for the value they bring to society.

>>38142506
>Communism requires a lot of things to go right.
Yeah, including pixie dust and magic unicorns.

>>38142493
Is it better to use force to make the person remain in their country or let them make their own decision to live in a society of their choosing, western or no?

>>38142429
There you have it folks. This is the only answer that OP needed to his question. This, right here, is what socialism looks like. The state becomes a prison and the citizens become prisoners.

I'm calling it a night with this. The point is proven. Everyone one here can draw their own conclusions. There isn't anything left to say.

>>38142429
Yep. When Pajeet leaves India to come to America, Pajeet takes an American job and does it for thousands of dollars cheaper and helps devalue the field. But Pajeet is needed in India to help make India a better place. Pajeet is thus hurting both his own country AND his new country.

The left has no answer to Pajeet's problem, other than "we don't need no borders, no one's illegal!"

>>38142528

Well, one system needs ideal situations to thrive, while the other needs a master slave dynamic.

>>38142555
It doesn't sound like Pajeet has a problem, it sounds like he's trying to live a better life.

He could stay in his country of birth if he so desires but it is his free choice to seek better wages in the West.

>>38142574
>while the other needs a master slave dynamic.
Sounds a lot like communism.

>>38142580
>>38142555
Perhaps the problem isn't with Pajeet and it isn't with the United States. Perhaps it's with the bloated, corrupt government in India with it's tentacles wrapping around half of the Indian economy.

>>38142590

Most have evolved in that, yea.

>>38142614
Communism at its core is slavery, since it is anti-freedom.

>>38142605
Perhaps there is little problem at all and you're trying to make mountains out of molehills so you can justify your beliefs to yourself.

>>38142247
It's not really about just handing out "free stuff". It's actually about getting cared and being rewarded for the amount of value you contribute to society. I by no means feel entitled the everything and no one should be.

>if i want something i need to work for it

How do you work for it when the jobs are being given to poo in the loos who come from a third world country and don't understand the established workers rights who can be exploited for their labor force as a lower cost to the capitalist?

And I don't blame the people in those nations because they simply want a better life but ultimately it ends up fucking it up for everyone else because all the low skilled jobs are being filled by people who are willing to work well below the true value for their work. So now I have increase my skill set and work 10 times harder just so I can save up for deviated septum surgery because my nose is completely blocked and its not covered under health care because its cosmetic apparently and still have enough left for shitty food. If saving up for a surgery that is needed to keep my healthy and still have enough food is called being entitled so be it.

>Lifes seems pretty good now

Try starting a family and being a family man with that less than average wage. You will start getting punished rather than being rewarded. But I don't know maybe that's the right way of addressing the population growth which is out of control.

>>38142641
brought to you by www.anticommunism.org

>>38142641

Capitalism has exploited billions, and is anti-freedom.

>>38142667
>How do you work for it

Uh, I go to work happily all the while knowing I'm free to end the arrangement with my current employer whenever I desire and seek better pastures.

>Try starting a family and being a family man with that less than average wage.

It seems like many of the poor and immigrants here do that just fine. But I'm not going to start a family yet because I know I can't afford the quality of life I'd like for that.

>>38142641
So you back up your argument by providing a definition of a work in your argument? Wow! That's so effective.

>>38140786

nice

i love seeing the reactionaries trying to hide their fear.

It's coming and when it does, their oppressive hateful ideology will be destroyed.... until we have to do it again b/c they never learn.

>>38142711
>I go to work happily all the while knowing I'm free to end the arrangement
You will experience frictional unemployment. You may not be able to find work again. You can seek better pastures all you like but you will never be compensated for your true value which your provide to society.
>It seems like many of the poor and immigrants here do that just fine
Then why do they remain labeled as poor and immigrant?

>>38142879
>you will never be compensated for your true value which your provide to society.
This is what classcucks don't understand, if your boss's making a profit it means you're not paid what you produce.

>>38142879
Why wouldn't he be able to find work again? Unless his labor is truly worthless, why should that be the case? If his labor is worth money and he's unemployed it behooves you to hire him.

Immigrants have shown tremendous economic mobility in this country through its history and continue to do so. If you'd like I'll provide you with several peer reviewed articles showing as much.

>>38142429
So first you are saying that "the betterment of mankind" is top priority.
After that you are dividing the mankind into "our nation" and "west" and prevent your people to go to the "west" to cure them, while putting them in a country-prison where they work for no money or prosperity other than hunger, fear of the government and the top priority of better mankind, that they are forbidden to help, because "brain drain is a good thing".


You are really pathetic and I would laugh at commies and their fairy tale ideas any day, but you killed so many people, imprisoned even more, actually fucked up whole regions and countries up to a point of no return. And all because of some dipshit without even basic understanding of economics that thinks everybody should be the same, just cause he is inferior to his peers.

>>38142907
Does your boss not take a risk when he starts a business? Do you think the company you work for just springs out of thin air? Does your boss do no work at all?

>>38142931
I wouldn't be surprised the anon you're replying to is bitter about being unemployed because all he does is fill out applications online instead of trying to talk to the people who are in charge of hiring face to face.

>>38142907
This is a common fallacy. Your labor is an input into a larger production function. It's usually most valuable when employed in a firm and can be mixed with other labor and that firm's capital. If you feel that you can make more as an entrepreneur, do so. You've that freedom. The profit that the firm makes is really a return on an investment in the capital that is also an input for that firm's products. Returns in excess of this are impossible in a free market. In practice they exist because we don't have a perfect free market and never can, but they're minimal. If you are being paid less than you're worth it behooves another firm to hire you. Find a new job.

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>>38140604
Hang yourself, it's the only cure

>>38143017
>I wouldn't be surprised the anon you're replying to is bitter about being unemployed because all he does is fill out applications online instead of trying to talk to the people who are in charge of hiring face to face.
Firm handshake and a smile?
Lmao you took the meme seriously?

>>38143306
Have you ever even tried it? It's what got me a job. A friend introduced me to a guy he used to work for, I made the best impression I could, and he hired me without even asking for an application.

Now I have a comfy construction job.

If you want to refuse to even try it, that's on you.

>>38140604
Go attend a few economics lectures.
I'm in the exact opposite position, i was once a commie as a kid, because my grandparents were fervent commies and always talked about the good old days, but in the end it was just their nostalgia coupled with them being party members.
Communists have no real argument about economics, they mostly revolve around philosophy and psychology today.
And believe me, i tried to become a commie after studying economics, because i wanted my grandparents to be right. I think i've watched every single Zizek video.
I think he even acknowledged the benefits of capitalism in one, but then started going on about inequality and such.
It might be this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN2ZGSX0cIE

>>38143354
>A friend introduced me to a guy he used to work for
Yeah that's the main thing there.

>Now I have a comfy construction job
It works for manual labor but not the kind of jobs I would want.

>>38143447
Maybe you should reach out to family and friends to ask if they know anyone who might be willing to take a look at you.

Also, see? There are jobs out there, just not the ones you want.

>>38143447
Here's what you want: a perfect job that never requires you to set foot outside of your comfort zone.

I'm done because I just get embarrassed talking to people like you. Your last sentence is just so pretentious and so entitled. This clearly isn't about economics at all for you. It's just a selfish little child angry at the world.

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You don't.

Communism is the final solution to the wagie question.

Communism is a construction made up by the Jews in order to further their own intentions. Almost all of the Communist higher ups were Jews and most of the revolutionaries bar Lenin.

>muh communism
>muh labor
>muh mass starvation and death
wow what a great ideology

>>38141055
How about you allow all Starbucks employees a vote on company policy?

I guarantee within 2 months the company goes out of business
Leave management to managing professionals

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>How do I stop being a commie?

Learn about communism.

>>38143687
Yes, anon. White collar stiffs in a board room who might never even need to walk into one of the stores know how to do everyone's job better than they do.

That's why every co-operative ever goes out of business and why this never happens to hierarchical companies.

>>38140786
Nice, comrade!

Remember racists have always been on the wrong side of history, and always will be.

>>38143953

100%

I love knowing that racists and reactionaries fantasies of a return to oppression will never come true.

/pol/ dreams are being crushed, and it's wonderfully hilarious.

>>38142047
>RRRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE IF IT MAKES COMMUNISM LOOK BAD ITS REAL
Solzhenitsyn's wife literally said it was fiction retard

>>38143995
fascists are closet masochists. they LOVE being bossed around by men in suits and having their liberties stripped from them.

>>38140604
get a job faggot
originalogon

>>38142383
bumping this reply

>>38140786
now when you say racists do you only mean white racists or non white racists as well there are plenty of mexican racists and black racists. it would be kind of racist to only kill white racists. inb4 some "only white people can be racist" bullshit

>>38142383
Stop thinking in terms of us and them.

>>38144640
>inb4 some "only white people can be racist" bullshit
............

>>38141673
Okay let me ask this.

If I lived in a communist state and got a mandated job that I suck at would I be reassigned to the gulag or just plain killed?

Why do I get the feeling both communism and capitalism result in the masses having to work hard and suffer in poverty just the same?

>>38141531
>anti fa are faggot domestic terrorists
Ahahaha what? American antifa are like 90% retarded larping liberals looking for a chance to punch and feel justified about it, but so far their body count is 0 unless you count the ones that ran off to Syria to fight against ISIS, and I'm not sure why that would be a bad thing.
Domestic terrorism by white supremacists and other far-right groups on the other hand has killed over a hundred people in just the past few years

>>38141541
Go read some of Peter Kropotkin's books such as The Conquest of Bread or Mutual Aid, for the vast majority of human history people lived in primitive or agrarian societies based on cooperation rather than competition, and we can still cast aside the crab-bucket mentality that plagues the modern world and return to a happier, more caring society (I'm not saying we have to ditch technology to do so, though). Just look at the popular myth that wolves follow systems of hierarchy, with "alpha" and "beta" wolves and such, and how so many people try to apply that idea to humans. It was later discovered that wolves, only behaved that way in captivity but were naturally inclined to mutual aid among eachother in the wild. We just need to break free of the capitalist system that holds us captive.
>>38143689
>unironically taking that pseud seriously
Tippity-top-kek

>>38144976
We're reaching the point where automation is replacing so many jobs that a lot of economists are considering ideas like UBI just to keep most of the population from starving to death and many of the jobs people have today, most people will be able to work a hell of a lot less under communism and instead focus on their hobbies and passions, with many people continuing to do work not because they have to but because they find it fulfilling. UBI might sound good on the surface if you're a NEET, but it essentially creates even more of a caste system than we have now and it would only last until the ruling class manage to automate the armed forces and no longer need to keep the proles placated, the end result is most of humanity getting turned into soylent green for the benefit of the psychos at the top. They're already trying to cull the population by making it more difficult for the poor to obtain healthcare, don't think for a fucking second that they give a shit about us.

>>38145555
>We're reaching the point where automation is replacing so many jobs that a lot of economists are considering ideas like UBI just to keep most of the population from starving to death and many of the jobs people have today
*and many of the jobs today are pointless busiwork like marketing that doesn't actually produce anything
Dunno how I managed to fuck that sentence up so badly

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>>38142194
So have you actually read the Bible or did you just treat it like an ELUA, skipping to the end and saying "I Agree"?

if everyone was paid the same what would be the reason to do a hard/dirty job such as being a janitor or a brain surgeon?

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>>38140604
"By working for a living, son."

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>>38141984
No, that's not what it is. Marx wrote very little about actual communism, His real work is the critique of political philosophy, and detailted the totality of the system we live under (as well as its functions and so on)

t. commie for a few months

>>38146526
Forgive my misspellings, I haven't gotten any sleep

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>>38142383
I always had a feeling that council communists were secretly essentialist brainlets.

>>38140604
when you start paying taxes and see nothing in return you'll become a libertarian.
also, people in the public sector are literal scum. dig a little and you'll realice there is no such thing as a "public servant". they are all rats.

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>>38146861
This, so much truth, i thought its a meme, but every "communist" or the diffrent cathgories are mostly perma students and they mostly profile themselves by their ideology its so edgy

Life's a dream really if you think about it, everyone is going to die either way and we have no means to stop the inevitable. In the meantime, particles are waves, energy equals mass, both space and time are likely quantised, thoughts leak out and shape our environment and Jesus died for our shortcomings. Relax guys.

>>38146861
Except communism has literally nothing to do with taxes

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>>38140604
I feel like I am truly redpilled. People who are brainwashed are convinced that one system or the other is fundamentally flawed but it is really easy to see how this attitude would be imparted on people after extreme propagandizing and conditioning by the ruling class to keep the system afloat.

I don't think communism could work with American leftist ideology though. Any economy only flourishes when all people put their hands to work and produce, and we've convinced ourselves that the only motivation for doing so is the insinuation that if you work hard enough you will rise above your peers in terms of standard of living and social power. Anyway, it's easy to see how regardless of your moral standing, people who are disabled and cannot produce really fit neither economic extreme.

>>38140682
Authoritative Socialism =/= Communism

Also to be completely fair, the United States did and still does things like that (especially during the cold war) they were just a million times better at hiding it.

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>>38140682
this is the same anticommunist rhetoric of the last 60 years confusing the actions of what was quite literally a rivaling empire with the aims of a social and political ideology

>>38140682
Remind yourself of all of the capitalist genocides and mass killings

dont forget your credit card or your cash when you go out for food or you'll be arrested for trying to leave without food

>>38147074
to achieve "communism" first you need a path of creating a government with a big presence.
big governments have everything to do with taxes

>>38147270
You could use a nestor mahkno style gang of executioners

or theres like 10 other ways to do it, but its not like you'd consider any of them

>>38147139
authoritarian right looks bad ass

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>>38140604
If it doesn't fit you exactly then strive for alternatives.
Can see value in some communist principles, although idealistically I'm an anarchist.
Either way do not trust people with democracy, and possibly wouldn't with anarchy either.
If utopia is not a place, system, but a people, then we'd better choose carefully.

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>>38140604
Read this, it's a very good introduction. Zero diagrams and zero mathematical formulae, filled with case studies.

>>38140786
Come kill me then nigger

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>>38140604
You don't. Just take the leftcom pill and all will be dandy.

>>38140604
Just read about the history of communist regimes.
If you're a commie, you should especially read about the infighting and purges.

>>38141782
>Gorbachev grants expanded freedom of speech and press
>soviet union collapses
Really makes you think

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>>38140604
Does this help you in any way?

>>38145658
Have you ever read John Calvin? Calvinism is the only logical way to interpret the Bible and Christianity.

I'm not even a Christian and I realize this.

>>38140604

Stop thinking that people at the top are ripping you off because they're evil capitalists.

Realize that EVERYONE is ripping EVERYBODY OFF all the time.

You think soviet collective farms were fucking shit because the monopoly man was still hiding somewhere in the trees? Bullshit. It was because farmers wouldn't farm when what they farmed never came back to them, only 10% of someone elses' shithouse work would, and the 90% you got taxed off you never came back either.

Ever been in a job in our teewible awld capitalist society where someone stops giving a shit? What happens then? You stop giving a shit as well don't you? Then he gets fired and shit rebalances. This happened to me last week - I stepped into the guys shoes and got a promotion.

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>>38140604

There is a goddamn, simple, knock-down fucking argument for all of this

The commies propose the following
>Commie is more efficient
>ppl realize work common good make all good
>no more wasted resource
>no more surplus value bad invested only good investment
>commies make us all better at same time.

Well well....then it would seem that any society that had those values would far surpass any other society, and blow it the fuck out of the water. The people AND the ruling elite (if such there was before "true" communism is achieved) would all be healthier, better armed, and more enthusiastic for the cause....

Now...what has actually happend? Who blew out WHOM in the 20th century? What does this TELL YOU about the suppositions of the original theory...it tells you that AT THE VERY LEAST

>the idea that communism will make you stronger, harder, better, happier is wrong

But it also kind of implies, does it not, that some of the founding principles are fundamentally wrong. Because the idea that people will all be better off under it presupposes that it's foundational doctrines are correct. I'll give you a tip: It starts going wrong from the moment you assume people want to work for everyone else. It goes wrong from the moment you assume motivation is the only reason for money, not information. It goes wrong from the start.

Pic related: The rusting fucking junk of what used to be the second largest navy in the world - unaffordable as it turned out.

>>38141176
All that shit food that will give you cancer, dairy from cows pumped full of antibotics that eat chemically enchanced animal food. Who needs that much variety of shit food anyway.

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Has there ever been an actual long-running and independent communist or socialist national entity that wasn't constantly at war with a capitalist national entity? I don't know much about economics, but it seems pretty unreasonable to say that communism has failed every time if every time it's come up countries like the US go out of their way to destroy them via direct or indirect warfare and economic sanctions because "muh domino theory."

t., not-communist-but-curious

>>38142383
The people will own the land. The people will profit from the ventures and products that take place and are created on the land. There are many things that divide a society, communism can bring all people together.

National Socialism was such a huge success for Germany though huh? :^)

>>38140604
This is why comunism doesn't work:
Smarter and more competent people can do better without constraints from the state.
Comunimsm only benefits dumb/incompetent parasites.

>>38149723

As I JUST FUCKING POSTED

>If they WERE stronger for communism...
>Then they would NOT fucking have lost.|

Half the fucking world was communist, and the entire thing economically collapsed. So how can it POSSIBLY be more efficient? This is like a fucking experiment when you say "My food is tastier and better for you" and then you give it to 500 people and the group having McCommie burgers start falling asleep and occasionally vomitting while the others wander around jumping up on their toes, whistling and smacking their hands together.

>>38150284
America's been the most militarily and economically powerful country in the world for a long time, I don't see how it's reasonable to expect communist national entities to be able to somehow defeat them right off the bat. I wouldn't expect that of any recently started national entity.

>>38140604
Realize that in it's pure form communism, by definition, can't respect private property rights.
Anything can be taken from you by the collective with the justification that it's needed by someone else, that it's "for the greater good".
If any property can be taken by this logic, why then can lives not be taken with justification like this?
Realize that only a thin veneer of human decency is what keeps a pure communist society from murdering you because you aren't as useful as you "should" be. The only way to convince them you are that useful is to work your ass off where ever this collective decides you are useful, and personally that sounds an awful lot like slavery. You just have an entire society as your master rather than 1 person with a whip.
Also wouldn't you rather like, you know, actually own things? Like really be able to call your bed "my bed" instead of "the bed assigned to me by the collective"? I know it's selfish to think like this but honestly everyone is selfish anyway, whether or not they admit to it.
Not sure what to tell you, if you really believe hard enough nothing will sway you, regardless of who is actually correct.

>>38150860
>Realize that only a thin veneer of human decency is what keeps a pure communist society from murdering you because you aren't as useful as you "should" be.
Isn't that what was happening during the Industrial Revolution when they were literally working children to death to make a profit?

>>38150687

Are you fucking retarded? The Soviet army was BIGGER than the U.S. ground and air forces by a factor of three at the end of the second world war.

So...they were already military stronger 50 years before they collapsed...but somehow they then manage to fuck up this perfect, productiver system, despite the fact that technology continued to advance, supposedly bringing their utopia closer.

You're a fucking moron.

If it was going to work...it WOULD. HAVE. WORKED.

>>38150860
>Also wouldn't you rather like, you know, actually own things? Like really be able to call your bed "my bed" instead of "the bed assigned to me by the collective"?
>google "communism private property"
>"Private property, when referred to by communists, only refers to private ownership of industry or the means of production; the things you own personally are not private property in this sense. They are personal property."
>hundreds of other results discussing the differences between personally owned property and privately owned means of production
why do people type out paragraphs before even googling the things they want to talk about?

>>38151311
Couldn't outright murder them, that was illegal, unlike under communism.
If someone is dumb enough to agree to work themselves to death they fucking deserve it. Enough people decide that working in a shitty factory for shitty pay with shitty safety conditions is stupid, and so they tell their managers (the bourgeois as you call it) to pay more/make the machines safer/switch to 8 hour shifts rather than 12. The bourgeois don't listen so the workers strike and now the bourgeois is losing money. Like any smart business owners they try to bring in more people, who I'm sure would've realized on their own in good time that the guys with signs outside on strike were right, this job is terrible, had the government not stepped in with laws. Rinse and repeat until all factories without adequate safety features/decent pay/decent hours are understaffed because they can only find idiots willing to work the shitty job they are offering and the other factories have plenty of workers and are probably expanding, which leads to them hiring more workers and ultimately evolving the standards of factory work environments when their unsafe, incompetent competition goes bankrupt.
I guess making OSHA a legal thing simplifies this process
Unions aren't an inherently bad thing, but are a facet of employee control in the employee/employer relationship under capitalism and if used correctly lead to a better working environment and world for all, without having to go off the deep end into socialism and communism. If your job is that bad, use your pressure as a worker and unionize. If you can't get your fellow employees to unionize, your outlook on your job may be out of touch with reality. Those children were idiots for not unionizing sooner, I have no sympathy for idiots.

>>38140604
Acknowledge human nature. Communism is a pyramid scheme.

>>38151553
I posit to you that private property and personal property are the same thing.

>>38151504
>it seems pretty unreasonable to say that communism has failed every time if every time it's come up countries like the US go out of their way to destroy them via direct or indirect warfare and economic sanctions because "muh domino theory."
>indirect warfare and economic sanctions
Is military power the only relevant thing here? I'm not a historian, but it doesn't seem entirely accurate to label them as a total failure when they achieved their primary goal of transforming a rural/agrarian monarchy into an industrial nation-state capable of fending off other world powers for years and helping win WW2. The Soviet Union was dissolved when the leaders of its states voted along with their citizens to dissolve it. I dunno dude, but it also doesn't seem fair to make it seem like it collapsed solely because it couldn't work despite the wishes of everyone involved instead of the people involved deciding to just not to do it anymore and stopping of their own accord by democratic vote.

>>38151654
>If someone is dumb enough to agree to work themselves to death they fucking deserve it.
>I guess making OSHA a legal thing simplifies this process
I actually laughed out loud here, I hope you don't mind if I screencap this and share it with others.