What's the flaw of libertarianism?

>>36675294
i dont care
>>>/pol/

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>>36675294
It assumes the market is efficient, ethical, or something anyone should be subjected to.

>>36675294
>not having roads
wew

>>36675294
You would need an all white populace for that, shitskins have no morals

>>36675344
>babbys first /pol/ browse
You seem to be confusing it with ancap

>>36675344
You know we already have private roads right?
Also, libertarians aren't AnCaps. Many if not most support government infrastructure.

Just look at globalism, which is essentially libertarianism - free trade, free movement of goods, services and people (and no, before you say that globalism is corrupt you're never going to get a non-corrupt form of libertarianism since it's de-facto a wet-dream of plutocrats anyway). It doesn't accommodate for social health - social cohesion, community, equality, class structure and social mobility.

Libertarianism assumes that these just magically take care of themselves once everything has become financialised, without understanding once the taps for wealth redistribution are turned off (i.e. through taxation) that this simply results in growing inequality, a growing underclass and an inevitable insurrection.

>>36675294

>depending on individuals to take care of basic needs for the majority
>Establishing what is basically social-economic anarchy
How is that ever good

>>36675709

>Establishing what is basically social-economic anarchy

More like feudalism.

If those who own the most capital are allowed to exert their influence unchecked, they in essence will become feudal lords and their workers will be serfs.

>>36675450
hue, while toll roads can work on a small scale there's no way you can keep up good infrastructure without taxation and government spending.

>>36675294
Libertarianism sounds good on paper, but in practice, it is just barbaric. It essentially throws away all programs and protections offered by the government (such as roads, social security, police, the military, etc) and offers it to the highest bidder. Libertarianism is basically just the system we have in place now, only you replace the democratically elected government with faceless organisations who will not be held accountable for their actions and only care about profit margins. Although, I do agree with certain aspects of libertarianism; I am pro-drug, pro-gun, pro-choice, although I understand the importance of regulations and would prefer to be controlled by a government I elected instead of some shitty organisation whom I did NOT elect. Not to mention that these organisations will have monopolies and would not be required to adhere to laws, such as those put in place by the FDA & EPA. And, if roads were privatised, some fuckers would buy the roads up and make everyone who drives on these roads pay money to do so. Libertarianism is just morally abhorrent.

>>36675832

It's simply less efficient as well, thousands of private companies do not have the collective bargaining power that a nation or state has when it comes to purchasing and moving materials and goods for repair, this is another reason why the US private healthcare system is more expensive than nationalised systems.

Anarchism > libertarians

>>36675905
it's almost as if government could possibly improve our lives at a small cost of taxes! crazy

>>36675294
shitty roads

>>36675962
B-but HALF of my paycheck goes to taxes so that all the black people can live off welfare, right?

>>36675294
Everything libertarians say is a lie. Pretty big flaw. Even your image is totally dishonest.

>>36675294
Is this full on, even shit like hospitals and the police are privatized, kinda shit libertarianism?

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>>36675998
the trick is not to work and you get to enjoy the benefits without the theft!

>>36675998

>Feeling hard done by having to financially contribute to a society where people you don't like receive the same social security as you're entitled to is the fundamental basis of an entire political movement

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>>36675294
Libertarian policies optimize for the value and protection of property instead of the well-being of people.

I used to consider myself a libertarian in the past but I've swung pretty far left, relatively speaking. I think UBI and single-payer healthcare is a great idea, for instance.

>>36675294
The largest flaw of a regime that isn't designed to keep powerful people in power is that powerful people are in power and do not want to be deposed.

Seriously are you this fucking stupid? Terrible bait.

Free markets are racist and discriminatory against people of color.

>>36676251
Elaborate, unless this is shitty bait, in which case your dumb.

>>36676167
>I've swung pretty far left

I'm sorry for your loss

>>36676305
>getting educated is a loss
Hello, Reddit.

>>36676298
If you remove regulations, people tend to discriminate against minorities

>>36676305
The fact that everyone on the internet that considers themselves a libertarian/etc. treats politics like a funny meme instead of things that affect other human beings didn't make it a difficult choice desu.

>>36675294
https://www.firstthings.com/article/2014/08/libertarian-delusions

tl;dr the state is meant to be a role model and pass legislation that acts as a moral guidebook for its people

>>36676526
>https://www.firstthings.com/article/2014/08/libertarian-delusions
>I hate libertarians and let me tell you why...
>First half of article is mouthing libertarian propaganda and sucking libertarian cock
Why do liberals always do this shit? Oh man trump is bad and we need to do something about this, look how big and strong and competent he is!

Maybe if the left would spend less time sucking off their opponents they could get some fucking work done.

>>36676526
You know what? I couldn't even finish the article. All it was was "HMMPHFHRM OMGAWFD LIBERFARIAN COKMF TASHTS SHO GOOMFF"

>>36676821
>click link
>ctrl+f "trump"
>0 results
Not him but did we even click the same link?

>>36676917
I was giving an example, dumbass. Lately all the left can do on media even the "alt" media is suck off people like Richard Spencer and trump himself, just lavishing praise and complements upon them, which is fucking retarded as all hell.

>>36676821
>>36676888
Huh?
It's a critique of libertarian politics written from a perspective of a American conservative Christian.

Don't know why your sperging out on something completely unrelated.

>>36676945
The article doesn't even mention the word "hate," so I don't know what you're getting so defensive over.

>>36676948
>It's a critique of libertarian politics
After which paragraph?

>>36676968
Get the fuck out of here, you braindead motherfucker.

>>36676945
Is this bait or do you really have no clue what you are talking about?

>>36677003
Yes, we get it. You wrote the article and think you're clever. You're not. Now go shill your blog somewhere else.

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>>36676996
I honestly have no idea what you're angry about.

>>36677017
>Anon is a Philosophy professor at Hillsdale College who just happens to shitpost on an anonymous NEET internet forum for mongolian flipbook lovers

>>36677003
One of Clarke's 3 internet laws:
"Any sufficiently stupid post is indistinguishable from bait."

>>36677017
Are you legit mentally retarded? I've never seen anyone act so strange efore.

>>36676948
>from a perspective of a American conservative Christian.
Well I guess it would have taken too long to explain, but here we go. I'm tired of this site and having to spell literally everything out for the braindead here. Great, he's a conservative, but he's arguing """""""""""against""""""""""" a hyperconservative bunch of drivel cobbled together into a religion that money and weed worshippers call libertarianism. And he's doing it the same way that fucking liberals have been doing lately to literal neofascists: by sucking their dicks. I'm tired of people not just calling a fucking spade a spade and trying to butter everyone's biscuit for no good reason when they should be writing polemics.

>>36675294
Well like communism it is based on the inner good of human beings for the system to work. That is always a flawed system.

>>36677167
No it isn't. That's just the propaganda libertarians use. It's actually based on arrant sociopathy and self-absorption. Then they lie and claim all kinds of other shit that's not true.

>>36675294
>muh "taxation is theft"
>privatization is fucking pointless
>instead of everyone paying gov. to provide stuff, individuals do and charge everyone else
>effectively the same thing except loads more inconvenient

In a truly libertarian society, the strong will always oppress the weak.

Some people think this is a good thing though.

>>36676401
>If you remove regulations, people tend to discriminate against minorities

More like if you remove regulations, SOME individuals will discriminate against minorities. Whereas, in a centralized government you can have state mandated discrimination across the whole population, such as occurred in the Jim Crow south, south Africa, or decolonized Malaysia, which penalized non-racists for not discriminating.

>>36677425
The strong, duh. But that's not very wise once you realise that there's always a bigger fish.

>>36677392
>loads more efficient
FTFY, did you forget that markets and competition are a thing?

People cannot handle harsh inequality.
/thread

>>36678284
However true libertarianism, with drugs and suicide centres have never been trued.

>>36675832
This is some obvious bait.
;x

>>36675847
>thinking that the government is still controlled by the people
>being naive enough to think that government can exist without growing past the restrictions it started with
topkek

Because it's moral sustent is the same as raw capitalism, it's supposed to locate resources effectively while letting those with higher goals get higher and better lifes with hard work.

It ends up being some kind of CeoCracy land, some kind of futuristic feudalism

>>36678557
Welcome to 4chan, newfriend. We hope you enjoy your visit.

>>36678968
Thanks, friendo. I'm glad this weird website has such a kind and vibrant community!

The mistake made by many libertarians is that they fail to acknowledge any force other than government. The scales of power have government on one side and capital on the other; either side getting too heavy becomes abusive. A libertarian stance is where we should start from, but if someone dogmatically refuses to let evidence move them from that position then it becomes just another quasi-religious -ism and an excuse to stop thinking. Power is a zero sum game, so we must decide how it is best allocated. There is no neutral position; the lack of a rule can influence a game as much as a rule.

>>36676397
Education =/= Agreeing with your views.

>>36676421
4chan is not for intellectual debate. You should join some kind of political community or read Hayek if you want libertarianism from an intellectual point of view. Stefan Molyneux's videos (Not his call-ins) are decent overviews.

>>36677167
>>36677251
It's based on the idea that all humans are deeply flawed therefore no man should have too much power.

>>36677425
>>36678159
Libertarianism is about limiting power. Big Government and Big Business are partners in crime who create crony capitalist systems. If it's just Big Government then things get even worse. Libertarianism seeks to alleviate this by limiting Big Government cannot serve its own interest at the expense of the people or be bought by Big Business to eliminate competition. It's not perfect as human beings are imperfect and always will be, but it's the best we have so far.

>>36678577
Crony capitalism and socialism lead to feudalism. Libertarianism is as far away from feudalism as you can be (Though it's not perfect).

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>>36675294
The government has never been able to do a single thing right. Prove me wrong.

>>36675294
Where there's a conflict between liberty and property rights, most people who self identify as libertarians actually chose property rights.

>>36679588
>The scales of power have government on one side and capital on the other

lmao

>>36681244
Property rights are liberty.

>>36675294
It's being twisted by the wealthy into an ideology where corporations are free to enslave everyone else. Not every libertarian is like this but increasingly more and more think freedom means freedom to be enslaved because that's what the propagandists are pushing.

. Biggest problems usually are

A. There system won't account for externalities. IE the Dustbowl,BP oil spill,over usage of fossil fuels

B. Privately owned infrastructure is fucking shit, that will rarely ever be built. if Coke builds a national highway system it's gonna charge others to use it, and may not let competitors use it all stifling innovation and competition and growth. Infrastructure needs to serve all private interest equally to be efficient.

C. Good luck convincing the 99% at the bottom of the ladder it's a good system. Extreme free markets are about as politically sustainable as Extreme Communists markets.

D. The free market will enable people to do unbelievably stupid shit that is horrifically inefficient, this is kinda the same as economic externalities, but more specifically this applies to marker schemes such as pyramids or multi level that take advantage of uniformed buyers to grant them a product or service no one informed would actually want. Free markets don't work if trade is based on lies.

E. If you let people do too much stupid economic shit you're going to increase poverty and thus increase crime.

F. Your military will probably be shit. Not necessarily a bad thing depending on the global situation though.Most military spending is supper inefficient. But today you probably need a good degree of military might ot enforce your global economic goals.

G. Nations that have centralized economic interests will get the better of you in trade deals. A strong federal government
and international trade are good things despite what pol says. . You gonna get buttfucked in trade if your nations producers/suppliers can't stand on a united front.

>>36678204
How can there be "markets and competition" for fucking roads? Am I supposed to add to my commute just to spite the person who owns the route to my job?

Another example, prisons. Do we let the prisoners choose which jail they wish to be sent to?

>>36681388
If you don't like a road, don't drive on it. Actually, It's quite simple, really, the free market will optimize for the highest quality roads possible.

>>36681436
>if you don't like a road don't drive on it
Except that's not always an option, if the only highway system is owned by one company then you're going to fucking need that highway system. A privately owned highway and infrastructure in general restricts economic mobility. It is fundamentally the most retarded libertarian ideal. Infrastructure is a good thing, and the more use you get out of infrastructure the better than infrastructure is as an investment for the economy.

Private and public interests do not always overlap.

>B-but someone else will create a better one if it's bad
Great now we have 2 redundant highways that each costed billions of dollars. Super efficient rite? Also just because they're competing doesn't mean one's going to be significantly better. See internet and phone companies.

>>36680954

>infrastructure
>standardized currency
>Military
>police
>fire fighters
>Mail
>Environmental regulation
>law
>uniting national interests on the global arena

>>36675620
>libertarianism is similar to globalism

???

into the trash

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>>36681740
LiteraIIy all shit.

>>36681740
>infrastructure
Motherfucker come to PA, pretty much 3/4 of our roads are full of potholes and cracks.
>standardized currency
Doesn't mean it's fully protected, many powerful countries have fallen in history and they dominated economics.
>military
I'll give you that one, but only for a few countries. Have you seen Germany's military, or France's? Aside from a few special groups they're complete jokes, and that's just two examples.
>police
Often understaffed with poor budgets.
>fire fighters
Can't really argue that one.
>mail
Still prone to problems.
>environmental regulation
Better than turning into China I guess
>law
Lol
>uniting national interests on the global scale
Only problem is that the interests tend to stick to what the heads in government want, not the people. That area is full of conflicting arguments.

>>36681273
>Property rights are liberty.
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength...

But in the real world, property rights are the right to deny others the liberty to use or access your property.

Of course property rights are essential in modern society, but so is government.

Less theoretically, its something everyone (to a certain extent) grows into and grow out of again.

I remember the dotcom boom, everyone was an Ayn Rand fan because they were making twice what their parents were on operating Dreamweaver at 18. "OMG its so easy to make lots of money, people must be lazy if they aren't, I'm a superior being". It was really just right place, right time dumb luck and of course the share options never actually amounted to real money.

Those same people have kids now and they feeling their age. If they are lucky, they work for faceless international corporations and I doubt one of them is a libertarian today.

>TLDR; its for kids who've had a lucky break, no responsibilities and think they are immortal.

Older libertarians exist but you can usually detect some sort of inherited wealth if you look at all closely.

>>36681929
France's military is pretty good, I don't understand this comment.

None of that is really a counter-argument, most people think the American experience is what happens when you try to be libertarians. You've got third world infrastructure and the lack of healthcare is strangling entrepreneurship.