Hey you Trumptards Can you explain this massive tax cut for

>4chan's support
don't group all of us with them man

Sorry, I think you have this confused with /pol/.

>>36581851
Back2pol.
Also "Massive tax cut for the rich" is a meme. Do you live in a post-industrial part of the country? I did, until the lack of jobs and insane cost of living drove me out. For the past 60 years, they've been under Democrat rule and tell the everyday man "we're fighting for you". What they really mean by that is that they and their rich pals from mega-corporations who have enough money to get specific tax cuts from government are getting rich, and that small businesses get destroyed so the large companies (connected with corrupt politicians) monopolize the market.
So breaking this down, a corporate tax rate cut to put small businesses on a level playing field with the mega corporations who already pay almost no taxes anyway?
Why is that a bad idea?
Perhaps it's time for you to get a real job or grow up a bit more to understand what really happens. Reading New York Times articles from the viewpoint of folks who have never worked in the private sector is no substitute for experience.

>Trump breaks yet another one of his campaign promises
Color me surprised.

I believe you are a bit lost.

I don't support Trump, but he proposed massive tax cuts during his campaign. There's nothing to explain even if there is plenty to disagree with.

>>36582111
Retard, this thread is directed at r9k because there is so much Trump support

It literally is a massive tax cut for the rich, did you read the new tax bracket he's proposing. It doesn't help ANYONE except the super rich bracket

And I have a good job kid

>>36581851
Meh what's the point? The CIA threatened in some way that we can only guess and it was effective so now he is backpedaling the big issues
It's still infinetly better than the Clinton's tho they are really fucking shady but now I know that voting doesn't matter at all if you get the most anti system guy possible and he is still threatened into following the rules

>>36582186
>I don't have an argument so I need to resort to calling you names to promote my political agenda.
Just stop. If your threads aren't working on /pol, then they won't work here either. I'm sure your dad works at Nintendo too.
I did familiarize myself with this earlier. Maybe if you got raped in taxes like I do every year, you would consider it from a different angle. What's so wrong about wanting businesses to reinvest in themselves and their domestic employees?
If you did actually have a decent job, you may actually understand the nuances of global competition on business and also the deteriorating value of employer-provided health care plans over the past 5 years.

But please, continue to blame the rich. Blame the rich and tax them more, and they will move to different countries and states more friendly to them.

>>36581851
>massive tax cut for the rich?

That phrasing is for stupid people who don't understand basic math. Pay attention:

So let's take rich guy Chad and poor guy Brad. They're both taxed at 5% of their income. Chad makes $2 million and year and pays $100k a year in taxes while Brad only pays $1k a year on his $20k salary.

Here comes Trump who decides to reduce everyone's taxes by 2%. This tax cut saves Chad $40k a year but only saves Brad $400. And despite the fact that Chad is still paying far, far more than Brad and despite the fact that they both had their taxes reduced by the same percentage, the media spins this as "Trump gives massive tax cuts to the rich who save tens of thousands of dollars a year while the little people only save a few hundred!"

Do you get it now? You're either intentionally misleading others or you're being misled yourself.

>>36581851
Don't care. Rich people deserve the money more imo. Poor people are scum

>>36582389
Did you read the fucking article?

He only wants to decrease taxes for the top bracket, learn to math, he is removing the old top brackets and lowering them

>>36582461
>Did you read the fucking article?

I did, but apparently you did not. Gonna have to place you in the "intentionally misleading others" category. Shame on you, anon. If you can't argue for your political beliefs without resorting to lies then you have no business arguing.

From the article:

>The proposal envisions slashing the tax rate paid by businesses large and small to 15 percent. The number of individual income tax brackets would shrink from seven to three - 10, 25 and 35 percent - easing the tax burden on most Americans

It's a cut for everyone. It's just a much larger cut for the rich because the rich pay a much larger amount of taxes compared to lower brackets, as I explained >>36582389. If you try to respond to this post please try to do it without lying.

>>36582461
>Read the article
What, do you work for NYT or something? That was a bunch of slanted hogwash geared towards making you think it's the worst thing in the world.
Anyway, I trudged through it and I agree with the other anon here who says it's intentionally misleading.
Basically, it simplifies the tax code, which is long overdue and stops crushing small businesses when no large corporations ever pay the full business tax.

Take your shilling and go somewhere else. You have yet to present a valid argument, and it does not seem like we're going to get that anytime soon from you.

>>36582581
The bottom is not having its taxes cut at all

The middle is potentially having its taxes cut or increased, it's not clear from the details

The top is having its taxes cut a lot

The absolute top is having its taxes cut from 39.6% to 35%

Read the article, your post explained an across the board 2% tax cut for everyone which is not what he is proposing at all

>>36582662
The top is going from 39.6% to 35%

The bottom is going from 10% to 10%

Are you mentally disabled?

>>36582694
>Are you mentally disabled?

This is really bad paid shilling here. I thought that was an invented /pol/ meme, but this is just WEAK. Do you know how many people actually paid 39.6%? Nobody?
Why are you ignoring that a good size of Americans still pay no taxes? Or that one goal of this is to simplify the tax code to where the average tax payer can fill it out on a postcard and not have to pay H&R Block to do their taxes for them every April?

Better yet, why am I still presenting facts to someone who obviously isn't reading them and continues to throw a slanted NYT article in my face while REEEEEEEEEEEEing about muh rich people?

We don't care. You're getting saged. Now leave.

>>36582824
https://taxfoundation.org/2017-tax-brackets/

39.60%
$418,400+ $121,505.25 plus 39.6% of the excess over $418,400

How does eliminating the higher tax brackets that high income people used to be in make the system simpler for everyone?

There's no slant here, look at the numbers from Trump's mouth itself. Do you understand math? Literally you're a moron

>>36582929
>Consolidating brackets yet this shill doesn't understand that people might move up to a higher tax bracket...b-b-bb-b-ut muh 39.6%!!!!!one11
Have fun in the archives friendo. I'm sure you'll keep making threads like these since you're getting paid, so it's all OK.
Sage and hide folks.

>>36583025
>might
OK kid.

Getting paid? You're a moron

And a low percentage tax cut to the super rich does the country more harm than even a massive tax cut to the middle class

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>>36582672

My post was a very simplified explanation of how even a small tax cut for upper brackets, percentage wise, equals a large dollar amount and leads to the media presenting it as "massive tax cuts for the rich".

The fact remains that the top is still going to be paying 25% more of their income in taxes than the bottom. The fact that you think that 36.9% vs 10% is fair but 35% vs 10% is a horrible injustice only outs you as a little commie scumbag.

There is no reason for the wealthy to be punished for their success except simple greed. If everyone were taxed at the same 10% rate then the wealthy would still be shouldering by far the greatest share of the tax burden. But people like you won't be satisfied until we take everything away from the rich and hand it out to useless leeches like you.

The top THREE PERCENT of Americans pay OVER FIFTY PERCENT of all income tax. Pic related. And you think that this isn't enough, that they should be paying more? Should the top 5% of the population be completely supporting the other 95%? Is that just? Is that fair?

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>>36581851
BECAUSE HE BUTTBLASTED ALL TEH SJWs XD HE TOLD OBONGO HE WAS FIRED LMAO IS HE DARE I SAY /OUR GUY/ HE MADE ANIME REAL KEK WES PRESIDENT NOW WE WON THE POLITICS

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>Never heard of the Laffer Curve

Neck yourself, leftie.

>>36581851
I don't give a shit about economics. I voted for Trump because his policies would limit non-white immigration.

>>36583061
Tax cut on the rich does more harm to the country? Good to see you have never studied anything based in economics. So in your mind rich people don't reinvest money into other companies they just put it under to bed.

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>>36583152
>It's okay if I take a big dick up the ass long as it's white

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>>36581851
Fuck off commie no one cares

>If you earn heaps of money you need to give it to ME and every other lazy pot smoking lefty who would rather join antifa and bash people and study womens rights instead of getting and engineering degree and working for wealth.

>>36583180
Nobody in America is taking a dick up the ass.

>>36583126
That same bottom 95% is completely supporting the top 5%

Where do you think wealth comes from? Thin air? Are these top 5% generating it themselves? No, they're generating it through the labor of the bottom 95% and very often from the labor of the bottom 99% in foreign companies where they can pay even less

It's not punishment to tax the rich more, it's making them pay their fair share.

Behind every billionaire stand thousands of people who performed the wealth-generating tasks who the billionaire merely delegated

>>36583169
>Muh trickle down

Yeah, let's give more money to the rich in hopes that they'll give it back some day

IT HASN'T HAPPENED. Productivity has SKYROCKETED over the past few decades, and earnings for the middle class have STAYED THE SAME.

NOTHING TRICKLED DOWN.

hehe what a good shabbos go- oh I mean nothing to see here! the (((upper class)))
are job creators, remember? just look at all those jobs they created in vietnam and india.

they have every right to keep their billions of HARD-EARNED shekels while you struggle to make rent. don't you understand basic economics? you are the cattle, we are herders. that's just how it works stupid goy!

>>36583200
I have an engineering degree and I work for my wealth you fucktard.

>>36583211
>can't afford healthcare
>can't afford medication
>can't afford to go to college unless you win a contest
>can't afford rent or groceries because of the tipping meme + minimum wage

At least you get to shoot a lot of guns I guess.

>>36583230
>2017
>still being a communist

Can you name a single country that has benefited from communism? How do you manage to ignore the endless stream of death camps, gulags, mass purges and executions, engineered famine, blunder after blunder, failure after failure, literal hundreds of millions of people dead as a direct result of your failed ideology?

Disgusting. I hope one day you grow up and realize what a fool you've been.

>>36581851
As far as I am concerned, no one should be paying any income tax.

a good compromise would be a straight 15% flat tax for everyone. Also all social services should be cut as well as defense spending.

Also the alphabet soup departments need to be cut as well.

In order to fight terrorism, we need to reinvoke the letters of marque and reprisal, let privateers deal with it.

>>36581851
4chan is filled with authoritarian globalist cocksuckers now. Trump is another arm of the establishment, but you can't say this anywhere on here without triggering the fuck out of his retard fanboys.

>>36583200
Look around. Half of the midwest is in decay. The rust belt has been dead since the 70s. Let's not even touch the south.

And yet we've been promised this magic fairytale fix of tax cuts actually helping anything since at least Reagan. When the fuck are you going to wake up and realise that by refusing to help fellow Americans because out of business, you're only fucking yourself and your kids down the line?

America needs infrastructure. It needs a massive overhaul to education. It needs money in the hands of the people who need it the most.

There's absolutely no fucking way on earth you're going to solve white, black, latino, everything poverty in crumbling communities around the country by handing even more wealth to the fuck financial exec in NY who only spends three weeks a year in the country.

Thanks for proving my point, Apple, Espn, US gold mining. Most of these were started or kept alive when the rich had more money to invest. But if you think the DMV is better at handling your money good luck. How are your roads and education systems working out?

>>36583268
And you deserve the money they made?

I don't care about taxes or welfare programs. I want muslims and shitskins kept out of my country. Trump has done his part, but the cuck courts have been doing their best to let them in anyway.

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>>36583322
Who are you quoting?

He never said anything about communism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#Complete_list_of_countries

The US is trailing ass behind pseudo-socialist countries like Canada and those who follow the Nodic Model.

That person should use more of their time looking into more economic ventures other than fucking around on 4chan

>>36583382
The people who need the money most won't do the right things with the money and you know it.

I could point out that niggers have had free gibsmedats for decades but you'd just call me racist despite the fact that you probably make fun of all the Rusty white trash methheads, indicating the literal exact same problem.

This country is dividing on more than just purely economic lines and nobody knows it yet. This is Weimar America.

>>36583403
What would you do if you had a farm that was doing well because of your fortune location, but all of your neighbours farms were suffering under a drought? Would you not give them food to eat so they don't starve?

America is in a financial and cultural drought. People will not respect your right to ownership if you don't respect them as people. It's like basic sociology.

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>>36583387
>Apple, Espn, US gold mining

the fuck?

Did you just have a stroke?

>Facebook, CNN, stovepipe hats, all three things from the same era that are all related and not one of them is completely unrelated and out of place

>>36583431
The US is higher on the hdi than Canada, and Norway is only number one because of their petrol economy that can pay for their social welfare.

>>36583488
If they can't respect my right to ownership they'll just have to learn to respect a bullet to the head instead.

>>36581851
cool companies can afford to pay their workers more. also this country can become more richer if companies don't leave from high taxes.

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>>36583520
>The US is higher on the hdi than Canada

They're both the exact same.

>Norway is only number one because of their petrol economy

Right? If only the US had something like that.

If only the US produced 6 times as much oil as Norway did

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_production

If only.

really makes you think

>>36583453
You have no right to tell people how they should spend their money. Take a step back and think no one is starving to death in America.there is a ton of ways to be successful if you work hard, grants, scholarships, military service ect.. most people just don't want to sacrifice social media, video games, or tv to put in the hours

>>36583230
>through the labor of the bottom 95%
not really. at least half of that number either doesn't work or works for/among themselves.

they wouldn't get that opportunity without the work of the billionaires to be honest with you. and almost nothing would be innovated or improved on. i support taxing the "rich" more but you have to understand that when the government takes money, they don't necessarily put it to good use. socialism is basically the same as if you gave one single company the rights to all the money they want. it might work if that company plays nicely, but what if someday a bunch of assholes, motivated by that power, take over?

>>36583551
>high taxes.

You mean regulations, worker rights, and hourly wage.

Trump is going to have to make minimum wage 50 cents an hour if he wants those jobs back from China. it's a race to the bottom.

>>36583488
Cool story bro... how about you travel

>>36582196
>The CIA threatened in some way that we can only guess

i wonder how many people are inventing conspiracy theories like this to excuse trump and avoid the plain reality that they got duped

>>36583623
>race to the bottom is lowering wages
>total unemployment is better

the job market will shift further to service and R&D and americans will still take big shits on any chinese quality of life, but your post makes no sense.

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>>36583581
But what if America's population is 60 times larger than Norway's, making A petrol economy much more viable to them?

Really activates those almonds.

>>36583581
>>36583520

Norway also has the good (common) sense to have hydroelectric dams to generate 98% of their electricity.

Meanwhile the US is still burning coal like retards in the 1800s.

You don't have enough water for hydro, but you have nearly an entire god damn continent to put up solar panels and windfarms and tidal turbines and everything else.

>>36583694
Them being the Norweigians.

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>>36583691
>americans will still take big shits on any chinese quality of life


Well... Hong Kong is just behind the US on the HDI, and China is smart enough to invest in solar and renewable energies unlike you mid-west coal-burning retards. Enjoy it while it lasts I guess.

>>36583515
The three things I listed were all either created or kept alive when the US taxed it's rich at around 15% so they had more encome to put into risky investments. is also when the around when the Rolling Stones and Beatles moved to the US and broght all the jobs with them to get away fromthe UKs 80% tax rate.

>>36581851
Wow gas was really cheap back then.

>>36583431
>He never said anything about communism.

I'm quoting the person I quoted, you little faggot. He doesn't have to come out and say "lol i'm a commie" when it's obvious already.

>>36583230
>"The rich only exist because they exploit the workers who are the true wealth creators and the top 3% of the population paying 50% of the taxes is still not fair; they should be paying mor and more until they're paying their true 'fair share'"

If you don't read that and think, "Yeah, that's a commie" then you're a fool.


>>36583581
>Norway population: 5,258,317
>US population: 324,878,000
>produces 6 times the oil
>has 62 times the population

Yeah, completely identical. But I'm curious, so answer me this: are you aware that you're making misleading and unfair comparisons and you're doing it anyway because you don't mind lying to push your agenda, or do you not even realize what you're doing?

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>>36583694
re: >>36583695

You have an entire god damn continent and two oceans full of resources.

You should be able to provide your people with accessible first-world healthcare, but that makes me a communist, right?

How much is that famous meme wall going to cost you?

>>36583768
Invest? Dubai is currently building the world's largest solar farm. China is importing US coal. The US is the world's most efficient geothermal combined with solar plant in the world.

>>36583907

So why are you complaining about Norway's oil?

Holy shit the price of that gas/gallon is what I pay per liter.

>>36583956
Are you in Mexico? How were the gas riots?

>>36583520
>>36583830
>>36583956

There are other Nordic countries ahead of the US that aren't Norway, just FYI.

When are communists going to learn that not all people are equal and deserve equal treatment.

The losers of society are only even alive by the grace of the winners, they should be thankful we even let them have so much.

>>36583940
I think you got the wrong guy. I don't give a shot about Norway's oil. But before the whole money from oil to the people you may want to watch venezuela.

>>36583768
>china
>smart
no. and even in the best case scenario you'll still keep sending your good employees to europe/america.

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>>36583907
I'm mapping the power grid in China and it is clear that they are investing a lot in wind and solar power, particularly in the west end of the country. These are large scale power plants and there are more of them than any other country. It is still true though that the populated east relies mostly on coal.

>>36584050
>>36583993


here is an extra top-original comment as I redirect you to the appropriate post

>>36581851
/r9k/ is mostly liberal leeches don't come bitching to us how you wont get your neetbux lol

>>36583453
>won't do the right things with the money

There's actually no evidence to support this, and the idea of it is very strange to begin with. People worry that the poor will spend money on booze and stuff I guess? But this is fine because booze is sold by business owners who need the money from those sales to make a living. If the worry is that money will be spent on video games, TVs and potato chips, these are also non-concerns because there's a business benefiting from every one of those sales. The only thing you can really worry about is drugs since that's an under-the-table business, and even there that's more the fault of the war on drugs; otherwise somebody would be making bank there too.

The very fact that the poor will turn around and spend their money instantly is exactly why they should be given more money. Economies are based very fundamentally around the exchange of goods and services; they are not based around living a pure Christian lifestyle where you don't spend much and stay very humble and tuck money into your savings. If the economy were a body, money would be its blood, and blood that pools somewhere is blood that is not feeding the body; and if so much blood pools in one place that other areas go dry, then the whole body begins to die. Velocity of money is important to a healthy economy, and what is true is that the rich do not spend their money; the ultrarich are too rich to even really try. They tend to spend 10-15% of what they earn in a year, and the rest just goes to rot in offshore bank accounts. From a dispassionate systemic level this is a poor structure. The money must flow, and we have decades of evidence showing that tax cuts don't help it flow. Do we really need another four years of the Reagonomics that didn't show any promise in 1980?

>>36584076

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jan/19/china-builds-worlds-biggest-solar-farm-in-journey-to-become-green-superpower
They've also been building hydro plants for Africa.

http://www.climatechangenews.com/2016/07/05/iea-china-has-built-a-third-of-africas-power-capacity/

Only pol likes Trump

>>36584131

Which is assuming that all the poor would just be given money directly and that none would feel an inclination to use it to further an ambition, neither of which is the case. Money can get handed out directly as welfare but a lot of what progressives focus on is public institutions, like education, public infrastructure, food programs and maybe one day healthcare, and these are the programs that would have the easiest time moving forward in America. Funding these things by picking the pockets of multinational corporations is indeed wealth redistribution, but it's redistribution that leaves no option for being spent on PBRs or whatever it was you were worried about. And in areas where just handing out money directly has been tried, even in the poorest areas of Africa, positive results have come about. Some groups have even experimented with just giving homeless people houses for free, and they've found it's a more effective solution than anything else that's ever been tried.

Moreover, educating, housing, feeding and caring for our population makes our labor force smarter, better and more secure, which makes us stronger on the world stage. Providing opportunity to everyone via education also helps build a strong and populous middle class, which is the best possible indicator for the long-term stability and prosperity of a nation.

What's really wrong with America is the total lack of compassion for our fellow man. Because we are all convinced that we live in a meritocracy, although of course there's no evidence to support that and plenty against it, we assume that anyone who is poor is poor because they're a bad person, and vice versa. We fail to be compassionate enough to put ourselves in the shoes of our fellow Americans and understand their plight as being as much the result of circumstance as intention, and because of that we consistently, nationwide, fail to seize the opportunity to invest in each other and build a stronger America together.

>>36583768

Does anyone appreciate how insane it is that there are people in America begging to get coal mining jobs back? Coal mining is the go-to shit job in movies and books and stuff; when the main character is a coal miner or lives in a community of coal miners, that's how you know they have it real bad.

>>36583993
>I could address your points but instead I'll just ignore them and pretend I was arguing something else entirely

Sad!

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>>36584211
Can I get a SICK HEIL?

>>36584180
>what's really wrong
>lack of compassion
of all the things you could talk about on a national level, you chose some cartoony cliche about how people are selfish.

your entire point boils down to "money solves all problems" which is false. go to hell.

>>36584162

Yeah, never mind the tens of millions of people who elected him. It's just those guys over on /pol/. They're his only supporters.

If /pol/ had half the power you seem to think they have then you would have been gassed years ago, friend.

>>36581851
>Can you explain this massive tax cut for the rich?
Yeah that was one of his main policies.

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>>36584180
>What's really wrong with America is the total lack of compassion for our fellow man.
>That's why I would never give my own money to help the poor and needy but would happily vote for the government to take it away from the "rich" and redistribute it

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Anyone here remember the 2008 Economic Crisis? It was that time that the biggest financial institutions in the world caused the world's worst economic meltdown since the Great Depression. Not only did they receive billions of dollars of profits from this, they got billions more from the FUCKING GOVERNMENT and then TRILLIONS more from the Federal Reserve as a reward for their efforts. Those banks are all doing just fine, but overall US GDP growth only barely reached 2% in 2014, and all of working America is still struggling. Who the fuck is defending the bootstraps meme?

>>36581851
Companies have more money to spend by hiring people

>>36584280

The problem isn't that people are selfish, it's that they're cheap. When you're handling money, there's an important distinction between being thrifty and being cheap. Being thrifty is when you make sure you get the most out of your money and make good investments, which is all well and good, but it also includes spending more than the bare minimum sometimes, because sometimes that's where the best value is. Cheapness is when you avoid spending money for any reason whatsoever just because you like having a high number in your bank account, even if it means you sleep on a mattress on the floor and eat ramen. Americans are the second type; investing in education, infrastructure and healthcare are smart long-term choices to make for a nation, that will pay off far more than we ever spend on them in the future, but Americans don't want to do that because they're worried about some nebulous other taking advantage of them and they'd rather keep the money anyway, even though again we're mostly talking about the money that comes out of the profits of giant companies and billionaires, not the relative pittance you get from the average family.

So it is instead the rich who get to do the thing that everyone thinks those evil "welfare queens" do; they privatize the profits and externalize the costs. They shift the tax burden of governance onto an ever-shrinking middle class; because somebody does have to pay for it eventually; and they sell our collective future for their momentary pleasure now.

Cheapness is a state where you have let the value of profit usurp other more important values; things like compassion, or family, or the pursuit of happiness, or opportunity, or fairness. And that is the state of America today.

>>36584427

Why is "rich" in scare quotes here? There are people on this planet worth billions, companies that span the globe. They really can take the hit.

>>36584492

Why would they though? You don't hire more people because your profits are larger, you hire more people when you have more work to be done. If you just get more profit because taxes are lower that just means you can pay out bigger bonuses to your executives. This idea is flawed in conception.

Again, look around you. America has been steadfastly trying trickle-down economics for decades, even under Democrats, and everyone has only gotten poorer while the rich grow ever more detached from the great project that is America. What more do you need to see?

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WE HAVE TO SET A MAXIMUM WAGE MORTY SO THE GOVERNMENT CAN TAKE MONEY FROM PEOPLE BY FORCE AND REDISTRIBUTE IT TO PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT TO WORK

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>>36584612
>America has been steadfastly trying trickle-down economics for decades

>>36581851
I'm not a NEET.

But yeah Trump has been disappointing me these past few weeks. Hope he gets his shit together again.

>>36584767
>Regulations are tax hikes
>Neoliberalism is not the dominant philosophy of America
>I'm really into letting the rich conduct class warfare on me

>>36581851
>it's another "hate rich people because they have money" episode
grow up please

>>36584824
>i honestly believe that the government wont make exceptions for friends, whether in regulation or other areas like tax evasion

>>36581851
Hey NEET dumbass, this is good for you too. You realize they added a 0% tax on married couples and any money made up to 27,000 a year will go tax free. Literally just marry a tranny here and you'll both be set. Oh but wait, you don't like tax cuts anon, so I guess I'd be better to raise them on you,

>>36584882
That's not what this is at all

Trump is literally giving rich people more money, and leaving poor people with the same amount as before

What did rich people do to deserve this?

>>36584915
I'm not a neet I'm a professional engineer

And I don't like tax cuts for people who don't need them while the people who literally need them don't get them. You morons generalize everything incorrectly.

>>36581851
My store hired like 15 people last week.

>>36584942
why do we need taxes at all

>>36584942
What do you mean don't need them? Small business is getting a tax cuts as well as middle and lower class Americans. Did you not listen to the damn guy speaking about it live? Simplified tax forms as well making it easier especially on the lower class.
So who is suffering under tax cuts? Because on all levels this benefits Americans.

>>36584923
Unchanging taxes on the poor isn't going to change much. Their tax rate is low, and they aren't making much money to begin with. So, you know, they don't give much money away.

Rich people, on the other hand, have much better use for their money than poor people, which generally helps their community more than the poor people ever will. If you take a few seconds to think about it, it'll make sense.

You sound like you were probably one of those "feel the bern in your crotch" assholes, desu. Please let me know if I'm right, although it's pretty obvious.

>>36585003
People making more than $440k in personal income per year do not need tax cuts, and they are getting a 4.4% tax cut

And "small businesses" are not the only thing in the world. Plenty of people don't own a business and are still struggling to get by and would benefit vastly from tax cuts

>>36584956
You're an idiot

>>36585024
A tax cut wouldn't help people who are living paycheck to paycheck trying to raise a family?

Yeah swiss bank accounts really help the community, okkayyy.

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>>36585045
you're naiive

>>36585061
It really wouldn't. If those people could spend responsibly, do you think they'd be paycheck-to-paycheck?

What, so it's the fault of the state's that they decided to raise a family without having a good source of income?

But no, infantalise those in your community, I'm sure it'll help them.

P.S., swiss bank accounts wouldn't be a thing if we didn't have taxes in the first place

>>36585071
Yes I'm naive for thinking we need taxes

Have fun living without roads, police stations, law enforcement, fire stations, public libraries, drinking fountains, sidewalks, bridges, clean water, etc.

Literally you're a retard

>>36585045
>Hey guys lets give a tax cut on all levels
"What are you crazy?!?! TAX THEM ALL TO DEATH!"

>>36585104
oh no ! things that are done badly ! i forgot i needed those, where will i get my mediocrity from now ???

>>36585104
>fallacy of the false cause
Just because the state maintains these programs doesn't mean that it is necessary and sufficient to maintain these programs. You took an extra shot of the statist kool-aid, my dude.

>>36585096
Yes families with high expenses and medical costs are just "not spending responsibly" okay

You're infantilizing the super rich saying they need tax cuts to be able to create more jobs. Create them without fucking tax cuts or your business model DOESN'T WORK and your business should die and be replaced

"People wouldn't have to get around the law if there wasn't the law to begin with hurr durr" jesus christ

>>36585096

Is it a decent thing to worry more about who's to blame than about the human lives that those children have? What kind of person would laugh off this sort of suffering, and feel he's superior for not helping when he could?

>>36585234
If you can't earn enough money to support your existence, then what good are you? Get your feefees out of my politics.

>your business model doesn't work because of laws put in at the whim of a third party!
cool argument my guy, keep it up

not only am I implying that they need tax cuts, I think they shouldn't have taxes at all.

>>"People wouldn't have to get around the law if there wasn't the law to begin with hurr durr" jesus christ

>implying that just because taxation is the law, it isn't theft

>>>You sound like you were probably one of those "feel the bern in your crotch" assholes, desu. Please let me know if I'm right, although it's pretty obvious.

just admit it already, you berncuck

>>36585104
did you know that fire departments were created by the free market (yes, in the most developed cities) and weren't common to be municipal until like 1910

>>36585234
>I think it's ok that people living paycheck to paycheck should spend over 6k on a vehicle because they gotta get to work to pay their bills right :^) and have the highest internet speed on the latest smartphone, because what do you do when you ARENT working ??? its like you WANT me to be bored

>>36585211

Is this retort really "We could do roads privately, I'm sure that wouldn't be worse in every single way?"

This seems like the dumbest kind of idealism. Are we conversing with a Randroid?

>>36585335
you know the government contracts out construction, right? you don't think they actually have workers?

oh wait, they have felons, I think some places force prisons to supply labor. must be some good roads there

t. paver

>>36585335
>This seems like the dumbest kind of idealism. Are we conversing with a Randroid?

That's a nice argument that you've got there.

Just kidding, it's not an argument at all :^)

I'm pretty sure his tax plan is going to ruin the economy and make the rich jews even richer while everyone else suffers, just like what happens every time the rich get tax cuts. but I don't know shit, if you lolbertarians are right and it grows the economy and creates more jobs for us proles, great. we'll just have to see.

>>36581851
I work for a living. I'd like it very much if he axed Obamacare (no replacement needed), cut taxes, built a wall, and got the illegals who artificially suppress wages out of the country.

The fact that you are against what is going on means that you have no memory of life before Reagan, so I'll tell you:

My mom was a Dental Hygienist (degree required), and my dad was a mechanical engineer (degree required). Both worked full time. Things weren't unlivable, but they were tight. My parents would share something as small as a can of soda, for example, and my sister and I had to, as well. Even as a child, I could see the weight lifted off my parents when those cuts came into play.

The downside was that the Somalian immigrants didn't have their kids decked out in Nike and Addidas (which my parents couldn't afford for us).

>consistently bitch about the debt
>Become president
>cut taxes
>increase spending

Top kek. Are republicans even aware of how retarded they are?

>>36585361

Oh please, you have to completely mischaracterize my post to respond? The roads obviously still belong to the public in this case, right? And were paid for by the public? How deeply shall we delve into libertarian rationalizations here?

Whatever, fuck off shill.

>>36585437

Your main enemy in terms of jobs is automation, which isn't going anywhere. Anyone who's actually studied it has found that automation causes more job loss than illegals and outsourcing have. Bill Gates thinks we should tax robot labor to save the unskilled, but that sure doesn't sound like a plan Trump or a Republican congress will support.

You're heading into a terrifying future, so perhaps it's understandable that you try to run back to the past, but the past isn't there to be run to. It's gone.

>>36585558
Can't speak for Trump, but I've come to the realization that we are going to fucking crash and burn regardless. May as well spend as much of our oilbucks as we can on shit to help us survive when the bubble bursts (infrastructure and the wall).

>>36585596
>all the jobs are going away due to robots
>so lets import tons of people to take away the jobs that are still around and have a larger welfare burden when the automation process is complete

>>36585437
>Immigrants depress wages
You're going to need to show some evidence for this claim. There is a massive body of research on this subject, and the general consensus is that immigrants have a very slight impact,if at all,on the wages of native workers. 60% of illegal mexican immigrants have less than a high school education. Even if we assume that immigrants do depress wages for native workers, they would only do so for American workers without a high school degree. 88% of all American adults have at least a high school degree, and will therefore be unaffected by any effect immigrant labor has on the wages of competing native workers.

https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2016/demo/p20-578.pdf

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21705699-who-are-main-economic-losers-low-skilled-immigration-wage-war

Didn't expect ancaps to be here. I thought our crazy obsessions with rational arguments were pretty rare - even on 4chan/8ch. I'm also equally surprised to see communists beliefs too. I thought they had been ousted since generally everyone hates them. Even people who are hardcore Nazi hate them. Communisms has a pretty well established record of things being ok at first, then rapidly going bad. Like eat your own children kind of bad.

But anyways, people will cite X socialist/country that is doing better and then compare it to capitalist America. What most people don't realize is that America is no longer a heavy capitalist country. Bring up a pie chart for 2016 government spending. Add the SS and Medicare expenses. You will get to 60% of tax money spent on socialist(communist) crap. Saying that America is a capitalist country means you are fucking mental.

>>36585793
Actually, one would just need to demonstrate that they depress wages for jobs that don't require proof of obtaining a HS degree. Which is the vast majority of McJobs.

Accepting that, it comes down to supply and demand. You increase the supply, the demand goes down, as do the prices.

>>36585793
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/03/20/us/illegal-aliens-depress-wages-for-some-in-us.html

>llegal aliens are depressing wages and worsening working conditions for legal immigrants and native Americans in low-skilled and low-paying jobs, the General Accounting Office says.

>Citing empirical data and several case studies, the accounting office, an investigative arm of Congress, said Friday that United States-born citizens and legally documented immigrants were being hurt, especially those working as janitors and food processors.

>The report identified restaurants and companies producing automobile parts, shoes and clothing as others that often employ illegal aliens. The aliens' willingness to work in low-skill jobs for less than the minimum wage in those industries has depressed wages and benefits for comparable native and legal immigrants, the G.A.O. said.

Now, granted, this is from 1988, but I'm wondering what changed. Why was it taking away jobs and suppressing wages before, but not now?

>>36581851
>My bosses get to keep more money to invest in the business I work in
>I get to keep more of the money I earn
>niggers get less free shit

I don't see the problem

>>36585793
>Even if we assume that immigrants do depress wages for native workers, they would only do so for American workers without a high school degree.
Yeah, fuck those niggers

>>36585845
Even then, we're talking about a hypothetical wage depression that's relegated exclusively to McJobs. These jobs already pay close to minimum wage, if not exactly minimum wage, There's not much lower these wages can go, regardless of immigration levels. And this is all assuming that immigration actually has this effect at all, a conclusion that definitely can't be made with 100% certainty given the literature on the subject.

The thing is that this is the issue that Trump ran on. You're telling me that of all the problems facing the US, a presumption that immigrants slightly depress wages (again, a conclusion that is dubious at best) of workers in fast food jobs is the most important?

>>36586039
They pay close to minimum wage for 2 reasons: entitlement benefits (meaning people can afford to work for that wage as the government will make up the difference) and the fact that illegal workers are able to operate below the minimum wage. Take 10 million workers operating at/below the minimum wage out of the workforce, and supply will go down while demand remains relatively constant.

This is why working at a meat packing plant used to let you afford a house as well as college for the kids, but now the average wage of any job doesn't break 30k per year (source: http://work.chron.com/wages-slaughterhouse-workers-22597.html )

>>36585972
You're missing the point. The effect that limiting immigration will have on workers without a college degree will be marginal at best. There are all sorts of other programs we could implement to help them move forward, such as federally funded jobs training programs. But if we're serious about helping workers with low education levels, we can't be cutting taxes like this.

>>36585972

Unfortunately blacks are too stupid to realize how much libfags hurt them so they keep voting Democrat en masse
>liberals support abortion, which in practice is Basketball American genocide
>liberals support open borders, which drives down wages for unskilled/low-skilled workers (disproportionately black groups)

>>36582186

>kid

Didn't need to read the rest

>>36586126
Thank you, I understand the theory of how immigrants would depress wages, but this has not been borne out in the data. Again, there have been numerous studies on the subject, and the results for the idea that immigrants depress wages have been dubious at best.

If we are really serious about boosting the incomes of native American citizens without high school degrees, we should be pushing jobs training programs so that they get the education they need to work higher-paying jobs.

>>36586251
Actually, it has been borne out in the data, as that NYTimes article stated (and you conveniently ignored).

>we should be pushing jobs training programs so that they get the education they need to work higher-paying jobs.
Every time the government fucks with the private sector, the private sector fucks back. This is why you could graduate with a Bachelor's of Engineering while working at McDonalds with a mere 5 grand of debt back in the 80s (nothing compared to today even if you consider the wage at the time was 2.10/hr). Then the government guaranteed college loans, and looked what happened.

>>36583274
Clearly lol, thats why you're here.
>>36583382
>cumminist dillusions

>>36586356
Not him, but I've made 46.50 since joining this thread.

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>better dead tha read
>Facist scum

America continues to run its nation based on feelings and opinions instead of realities.

Feels goos to live in a meritocrazy, enjoy your shithole

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I've said it before and I'll keep saying it again but it's all about ENFORCING the taxes. You can cut down taxes for the extremely rich but it doesn't matter if they don't even pay half of it most of the time anyway by either shipping money off into other countries, offshore banking accounts, tax loopholes or good ol' fashion tax dodging. Lower it if you must but for gods sake the government's gotta put a clamp on the tax loopholes.

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>The standard deduction, currently $6,350 for single people and $12,700 for married couples, would double.
Music to my ears. Will it happen? Maybe, maybe not. We may get close.

Too many freeloaders.
SSDI must be amended to exclude mental illnesses except in extreme cases.
Anchor baby parents have to go; set a precedent.
H-1B visa should be eliminated entirely.
Wall should be built - tax the $27B remittance industry to elimination if necessary.

>>36586440
>H-1B Visa should be eliminated entirely.
That's pretty much the only way most people can legally immigrate to the US - even europeans. It doesn't need eliminated, but it does need restructuring to keep companies from effectively employing slaves.

>>36581851
>republicans will cut everyone's taxes
>democrats will raise everyone's taxes

Since I can't choose to cut the working class' taxes and raise rich people's taxes I guess I'll go with the republicucks over the democucks.

>>36581851
I'll let Styx explain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLhi3MJ58Hg

>>36586323
One New York times article from 1988 does not constitute a body of data. We can play this game though.

http://www.nber.org/chapters/c6910.pdf
Here's a 2008 study that finds that a 10% increase in low-skilled immigrants in the US results only in a 2% drop in workers wages, and that wage drop occurs exclusively to workers working in an immigrant-intensive industry.

http://www.nber.org/chapters/c11773.pdf
Here's another that finds that inflows of immigrants in the 70s and 80s has reduced the wages of workers with less than a high school degree by a whopping 1.2%.

Again, why is this the issue we're going to focus on if our goal is to boost the incomes of workers with out a high school degree? Jobs training programs have been proven to have a significant positive impact on workers.

http://www.nationalskillscoalition.org/resources/publications/file/NSC_ProgramsEffective_2011-03.pdf

http://npc.umich.edu/publications/u/2013-09-npc-working-paper.pdf

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>>36586378
Was it a good blowjob?

>>36586534
>One New York times article from 1988 does not constitute a body of data. We can play this game though.

The man they were quoting did, though. So what changed?

>>36586539
Would it even be possible to give a blowjob while being active on a laptop?

>>36586557
That's why he makes the big bucks, he's got the talent

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>>36586494
You're right. Enforce double the minimum median salary on a zip-code specific basis (zip of the place of employment.) Deport all who do not currently meet that criteria. Give one year's notice.

>>36586551
I don't know what changed the opinion of the author of that article, if that's what you're asking. The article does say that illegal immigrants are depressing wages, but doesn't mention that those wages are being depressed by about one or two percent, and the only jobs immigrants are affecting pay extremely little anyways. Perhaps that has something to do with the shift in narrative,

>>36585944
You're assuming that all those bosses will actually invest in the business that they own. You're also assuming that your bosses will also ramp up production even though demand hasn't gotten to that level yet. Why would a boss build 2 more factories when his current 3 are already meeting demand? Even if he pocketed all the money and spent it on bullshit like cars, yachts, and more mansions, that money doesn't even "trickle down" enough to create more jobs. Unless he's needlessly buying things for the sake of buying them, the money he spends on material goods isn't enough to make a significant impact on job creation.

>>36586356
>Clearly lol, thats why you're here

>Implying having a good job means I'm not a socially retarded degenerate with no friends

>>36586667
So everyone that works a job that doesn't require proof of HS education loses 2%, or an entire week's wages, and that's by your own argument.

Meaning that, worst case scenario, getting rid of the illegals, who have absolutely no right to be here, would give everyone an extra week's pay per year. This, of course, isn't touching on facts like "decreasing the population by 10 million would lower demand for things like rent, which is a major expense, as well as reduce up to 7500 auto deaths per year (not to even touch on auto accidents).

>>36586749
So increasing a minority of the population's wages by one extra week's pay per and decreasing rent in crime infested slums by a small percentage (since they're all whole families crammed into one room) is worth 20 billion dollars? (but it will really be more because government projects are ALWAYS more, at least 2x more but realistically 4x or greater)

And it's extremely ironic that you want to take taxpayer money and now distribute it to the bottom of the barrel people whose wages are being depressed by 2% all of a sudden because they deserve that 2% back even though you all claim to be soo against taxes in general and wealth redistribution of any kind, but that's literally what this is by your own explanation of the reasons for the wall

Hmmm, none of this seems to add up? Oh I know, you're literally just racist and these explanations are done after-the-fact and that's why they don't add up and aren't worth the money.

If you want to help these people whose wages are being depressed by 2% encourage public education funding, but no you fucking morons want to decrease that funding

Basically you're all stupid and don't even know what you want or how to get it

>>36586811
>So increasing a minority of the population's wages by one extra week's pay per and decreasing rent in crime infested slums by a small percentage (since they're all whole families crammed into one room) is worth 20 billion dollars?

Don't forget all the crimes they commit being reduced. And yes. The only alternative is to literally give up on the problem, at which point why even have a government?

>>36586811
There doesn't need to be an economic reason. On a fundamental level, why should us citizens care about the well being of other countries citizens?

>>36585944
If we are to believe the past, the rich don't invest in business. They take as much as possible until the government bails them out.

>>36586749
If we assume that these people's wages are $10/hr (very generous, many states have lower minimum wages), and they work 40 hours per week (again very generous, most of these jobs give far fewer hours), they're making $400 per week. Assuming that immigrants reduce wages by 2% (even this number is dubious, many studies have the number as low as 1%) then they lose out on about a week's wages. But these are very generous assumptions. And, you're assuming that if we're somehow able to round up every single illegal immigrant and deport them, wages will suddenly increase. Wages are notoriously sticky, and even if they do shift upwards, it will be very gradual. Given all of this, the effect of mass deportations will be incredibly marginal, if there will indeed be any effect at all. I've seen nothing to convince me that mass deportations are a superior alternative to jobs training programs, which have a proven track record.

>>36582196
>The Clintons are really shady
>No charges have ever been filed

This meme is stale

>>36586875
What are you even talking about? The Auto industry? The banks in 2008? Those situations had little to do with economic policies like these.

>>36583126
Dont worry man I totally agree with tax cuts for the rich. After all, we're gonna need them when we become billionaires!

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>>36581851
>rich buddies get a tax cut
>want to get more shekels but can't hire overseas workers because of H1B visa cuts Trump did
>have to hire US workers
>NEETs get a job and end up happy

>>36586875
Also, government bailouts have recently be in line with the Democratic party. Those companies should have been left to fail.

>>36586836
This is another myth, that illegal immigrants commit crime at higher rates than native citizens. They don't.

https://www.cato.org/blog/immigration-myths-crime-number-illegal-immigrants

https://academic.oup.com/socpro/article-abstract/56/3/447/1707591/Exploring-the-Connection-between-Immigration-and

Yes yes fight for the rich. Let the rich have all the power.

Remember, capitalism is racism.
To amerisharts, how is it living in a neocon country?

>>36586916
Never said that they committed higher crimes than natives. But every crime they commit here is one that wouldn't have been committed had they not been here.

>>36586864
The economic issue is that all this focus on illegal immigration from fucking Mexico is costing us far more money than "fixing" the problem (which is impossible without spending tons of money) would ever do

If you want to stop them all from coming in you have to spend more money than you gain by keeping them out, get it?

If you actually care about the economic situation:
-Decriminalize all drugs so these crimes surrounding drugs stop
-Get more border agents but forget the fucking wall
-Just forget about it, who cares if some people without a high school diploma near the border get 2% lower wages, who gives a fuck? Who cares

The only REAL issue regarding illegal immigration is the ethical issue surrounding the fact that these illegals are exploited and taken advantage of because of their unfortunate situation. They just want a better life and they are often forced into basically slave labor and live in horrible conditions, that's the only real issue

Humans are humans regardless of whether they're citizens of the United States of America, a fucking arbitrary line in the sand, an economic pocket we've created, you guys need to drop some fucking acid and wake up to your selfishness

Endless altruism is weakness and you will be taken advantage of, but a complete lack of empathy is even worse. We could help these people without much effort on our end

>>36586916
>illegal immigrants don't commit crime at higher rates than native citizens
>ILLEGAL immigrants
are you a retard?

>>36586932
The same can be said of any human being, let's get rid of half the people and the crime rate will drop 50%

None of your points make rational sense

>>36586894
He's implying that the rich would recirculate the money providing more jobs. When history shows the rich are just as greedy as the next man.

>>36586946
Not the writer, but the implication in that phrase is "crimes other than their act of illegal immigration"

This is pretty obvious if -you- aren't a retard. The crime of illegal immigration is arbitrary and doesn't hurt anyone except through any other crimes they commit and economic displacement

>>36586932
If you had bothered to look at the studies I linked, you'd find that increased immigration is actually correlated with a DECREASE in violent crime.

>>36586946
His first article mentions that. As in despite the obvious.

>>36586947
>The same can be said of any human being, let's get rid of half the people and the crime rate will drop 50%
Citizens have the right to be here. Illegals don't.

>None of your points make rational sense
At this point, you sound either desperate or stupid.

>>36581851
My family is well off so I'll take it.

>>36586936

I'm pretty much with you there on stopping the exploitation of illegal workers. Only way I can think of how to go about it tho' is to add in illegal workers into worker's rights and laws and have them enforced.

>>36586946
We're talking about violent crime levels.

>>36586974
Why do you try to act oblivious to the fact that he's trying to tell you that getting rid of those immigrants doesn't make sense from a cost/benefit analysis? Don't be daft on purpose.

>>36586936
Sweden has a word to say to you.

>>36586936
Its not an economic issue to me since I don't care if it costs money to keep them out.

Also I don't agree with your argument that we should care about each other just because we are the same species. I care about my family, my friends, and just about no one else. I really don't care about Americans in general, and I have just about nothing left for non citizens.

>>36587012
Not him, but having a government doesn't make sense in any sort of analysis if they aren't going to defend our borders and repel foreigners who are here without the people's explicit permission.

And the more you put it off, the higher those costs are going to get. So either fight now, or give up forever by getting rid of the government.

>>36586864
>>36586936

One should also note how the focus is always on the immigrant for taking the job, not the employer for giving it. Nobody says word 1 about going after employers, or even condemning them for doing it.

>>36587024
Fair enough, but you're a bad person and you're benefiting from the hard work of countless people who cared about you before you were even born

>>36587048
I have no issue with fining the employers into oblivion for doing so.

>>36587029
That's reasonable. How would you approach stopping them from coming in and sending the ones that are here back? Last I heard the border patrol is doing quite well and actually meeting all their quotas.

>>36587048
I don't agree with employers breaking the law and hiring illegals. As much as I stand with Trump on social issues, I hate the fact that he looks out for large corporations. You have to take the good with the bad I guess, but on the other hand, Obama didn't do much in the area and I don't think Clinton would either. Not like Congress would help regardless.

Oh and by the way, I was actually born and raised in a border state unlike half these rednecks who want to build a wall

Recent immigrants and (probable) illegal immogrants who I knew growing up were among the hardest working people I ever knew. There were the gangster mexicans who were just complete douche bags, horrible people who would steal and spit on you, call you a puta cabeza and pinche puto, or whatever their swear words were

But the hard working ones were just great people. Better than the fucking rich white people in my school. I remember one who had a family of about 8 siblings and he would always laugh and hang around with his younger siblings and stick up for them, he'd always be friendly as fuck to me and everyone. He wasn't that smart and was in the lower classes for dumb kids, but he was great at soccer lmfao and he was just awesome

What are you? I bet you're less of a man than he is now. You're all shit, you fucking cockless faggots who want to "deport duh illegals cuz theyre takin muh jerbs, I don't want to help the fucking beaners" fuck you, you're horrible people.

>>36587074

Once somebody brings it up. It wasn't your first instinct. Why?

>>36587024
Whenever authorities have aggressively gone after illegal immigrants, the surrounding economy has suffered, it's not just a matter of tax dollars. Native people are going to be actively worse off if we push for aggressive deportations.

>>36587077
Building the wall is a good start. I would also have no issue with telling employers that for every illegal in their employ (workers who run away are already counted), they would experience a 100,000 dollar fine. Also, no state or federal aide without a social security card, valid work visa, or green card.

It won't completely eliminate all of them, but that would slow them to a trickle.

Oh, and to reduce costs of the wall, any illegal immigrant who shows up able and willing to work on the wall for 3 hots and a cot (and nothing more) will be granted full citizenship, along with their immediate family.

>>36587029

I think this "no immigrants or no government" dichotomy is straight out of left field. These aren't foreign soldiers, they're people who haven't filled in paperwork. It's a pretty big difference of degree and one that makes "WE HAVE TO REPEL THE FOREIGNERS" read like either a huge overreaction or just a cynical technicality argument.

>>36587102
My first instinct was to build the wall to help remove the possibility of it even occurring. You don't need to make sure the kids don't get into the cookie jar if there aren't any cookies in the jar.

>>36586916

>ILLEGAL immigrants

Their existence here is a crime. By simply living here, they're committing crime 24/7

>>36587062
Can you be specific? If I think of people I've benifited from, it seems like it's mostly my ancestors and partly people who cared about Americans. I don't know man, I'm not saying I'm a good person by anyone's standard, but I believe I'll get by in this life alright, and I can do my best so that my children are equipped to survive despite the conditions they are might face.

>>36587154
Multiple posts already brought that up and addressed it

>>36587169
Scientists, humanitarians, biologists, agriculturalists

These people often spend their whole lives dedicated to a craft getting nothing to show for it. They do it for humanity. They do it for the higher ideals. They do it for future generations

You should thank them and follow their model because you are only living the great life you have today because of them

>>36587154
If you bothered to read any of my posts, you'd know that I'm referring to violent crime. I am making the argument that the presence of illegal immigrants does essentially nothing to harm native citizens. I am aware that illegally entering the country is a crime, thank you for your concern.

>>36587135
As a German who recently immigrated to the US, it's not out of left field. Do you have any idea how hard it was for me to get here, even with a high-skilled education that was in demand?

There's a reason it's so hard. It's because if you allow immigration from just anyone, it degrades your society (which is EXACTLY why I'm here - most of Europe started later, but we caught up and surpassed you very quickly).

The most important job of a government is to protect its citizens from foreign threats. Whether they wear a uniform or not is irrelevant. Every person inside of a country without that country's express permission is a governmental failure. Governments aren't really needed to build roads (New Hampshire is FILLED with toll roads), they aren't needed to give money to others (private charities existed long before welfare of any kind existed).

So fuck off with your, "They aren't the same thing!" Both inflict economic harm. Both inflict civilian casualties that otherwise would not be inflicted upon said civilians. Stop trying to divide them into two separate camps based on motivation.

>>36587205
What have non American humanitarians done for me? Scientists are just as motivated by personal success as they are with benefiting the world, especially outside of medicine.

>>36587282
It doesn't even matter. Person you are responding to is cherry picking. For every single scientist they can show, you could show 100 people who have made society worse.

>>36587321
Yeah I know. I just was frustrated seeing numbers and economic reason being thrown around when at the end of the day it's about how much you care about other people. I've spent the last 6 months trying to get people to realize that it's ok not to care so much. I know it goes against what you learn as a child, but the world is a tough place, and some point you have to look out for yourself.

>>36587357
You're not going to convince people not to care. That just causes virtue signaling. What you do is you shame them for not caring. They don't care that other people were harmed because of people that never should have been here in the first place.

>>36587357
This: >>36587377
People who did nothing wrong, and spend their entire lives operating inside the law as much as possible, and even children, get crippled, raped, and even murdered by people who knowingly broke the law.

>>36587357
Interesting how easily you wave away all the "numbers and economic reason" I put forward. Contrary to what Trump and his supporters say, increased immigration is a net positive to the US. Caring about people is a secondary concern. It's not about how much you care about other people. It's about what's best for the country. By any interpretation of the data, immigration is good for the US as a whole.

>>36587230

Is it really your hope that I'll start believing that having a North Korean soldier land on the West coast is basically the same thing as having a German fellow like yourself land in Silicon Valley and work at a tech company without an H1-B, and equally deserving of just eradicating the entire practice of governance? Even if we pretend that border protection really is all a government is for, which in itself is ludicrous? What level of rationalization does one need to be on to make an argument of this sort?

>>36587377
I don't agree, most people I have approached this way have gotten knocked on their ass on how blunt and honest my viewpoint is. They may not agree, but I think they entertain the idea of seeing things from my point of view. Shaming them is playing their game, which they love doing.

>>36587427
What else is a government for, if not boarder defense? You call it ludicrous, but offer nothing.

>>36587421
I understand that immigration is net positive for the us. But for me personally it doesn't matter. Thats what I meant by waving away those arguments. What's best for the country doesn't only include economic conditions. Traditional American culture is at stake, which is important to me. I don't claim to represent an average trump supporter.

>>36587511
Inb4 country of immigrants

>>36587550
Don't forget "Diversity is our strength!"

>>36587476
Not him but
>making sure the constitution is uphold as necessary
>managing the police force
>collecting taxes and spending it on necessary public works that wouldn't otherwise exist (parks, wildlife reservations, facilitating development through imminent domain)
>regulating industries like medicine and agriculture
>representing us as a whole to increase our bargaining power on the world stage
>enforcing a minimum standard of human decency
>codified laws and court system with check and balances

>>36587511
I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree if you're willing to sacrifice a stronger economy, which will mean more money for struggling native citizens, over "traditional American culture."

>>36587582
You're damn right. I watched hacksaw ridge 5 times in theaters.

>>36587582
Americans have shown to be pretty tough. We can get by without the help of a few illegals.

>>36587582
This is what I was getting at. Opposition to illegal immigrants does not hold up on fact-based arguments, it only makes sense for those who simply don't like different people.

>>36587357

You look out for yourself by looking out for your group, and them looking out for you in turn. That's how real human bonds have always worked.

Humanism arises simply when you see the arbitrary lines of tribalism for what they are, arbitrary, and realize that there really shouldn't be any border that causes you to lose your compassion for the people on the other side. You might not be able to get along with them in all circumstances, but that doesn't make the fundamental knowledge of your sameness go away. All that can go away is your willingness to face it, and open yourself to the manifold burdens of that realization.

And in the greater sense, a society where everyone decides to just "look out for myself" is one that doesn't have much of a future. These great societies are what make our lives so much better than our ancestors were, but if we lose our commitment to maintaining that society it'll all fall down around us. And in order to commit to that society we have to commit to each other; who can build for others when he's only worried about himself?

To loop back around to the OP, this is why the Trumps of the world will never build anything of lasting value. All Trump has done is rally his people around enemies of one kind or another, he has not painted a vision for people to follow, and he can't because the whole point of his presidency is to look out for himself and his brand. There's no vision because he has none to give anyone other than himself.

We will not get ahead by sabotaging each other. We will get ahead by forging ourselves together.

>>36587574
>making sure the constitution is uphold as necessary
That's the responsibility of the civilians, which is why one of the founding fathers said there should be a revolution once per generation. He knew the government wouldn't do that, as it just gets in the government's way.

>managing the police force
Managed to do that without federal government oversight for around 200 years. That was more a job of local/state government, along with volunteers.

>collecting taxes and spending it on necessary public works that wouldn't otherwise exist
None of it even remotely necessary. A private individual could purchase land and make it into a park, as could a local or state government.

>regulating industries like medicine and agriculture
Leading to super powerful, super rich monopolies.

>representing us as a whole to increase our bargaining power on the world stage
Yeah. Lord knows the free trade agreement wouldn't have happened if the federal government didn't exist. Wait, that is literally all that would happen.

>enforcing a minimum standard of human decency
Rarely done at a federal level, and even so, "decency" is vague and often a matter of opinion.

>codified laws and court system with check and balances
Humanity can and has survived without that before, and likely will again.

>>36587628
Fact based arguments all rely on baseline values and judgements. Just because you can attach a number to economic conditions doesn't mean it's objectively more important than cultural preservation.

>>36587643
White Knight with a faggot quote to end the post

>>36587662
This isn't the 19th century anymore champ. Plus the state is still a government. I made my post with no distinction between the fed and state because I didn't and don't see how that changes your argument on the role of government.

Reagan dealt a fatal blow to the US economy by forever gutting revenue and starting massive overspending. Trump is merely delivering the killing blow, finishing what Reagan started.

>>36587791
Hate to say it, but its looking like that. I agree with Trump on most of the social issues which made the election tough. Sometimes things need to get worse before people try and fix them.

>>36587841
Meh, at least he's wanting to spend money on shit that can survive the collapse, rather than piss it all away on government welfare.

>>36587851
True, I still get shivers thinking about Bernie trying to give free college to everyone.

File: 1481091486948.gif (88KB, 400x314px) Image search: [Google]

88KB, 400x314px

How do we stop our jobs from being taken away by robots and automation?

>>36587867
Which would have been paid for by taxes. Trump on the other hand is spending it on frivolous stuff that the country can't afford.

>>36587879
The two things you refer to are on the same hand.

>>36587878
We don't. We just have to give out neetbucks.

>>36587897
These tax cuts for the rich will just decrease revenue even further. They simply do not make sense from an economic point of view.

>>36587879
Charitable estimates would have put the cost of college at around a trillion dollars per year. In order to afford that, you would need to increase taxes on literally every single thing by around 6 percent. But, of course, there's about half the country that doesn't have any income tax, so you can double the income tax on those who pay to about 10 percent.

There is no feasible way he could have paid for that. Businesses would either abandon ship, moving overseas, or just close.

Also, Bernie is a piece of shit who doesn't know shit about working in the private sector.

>>36587965
Yeah I disagree with Trump's tax cuts. I was simply acknowledging that one alternative was Bernie, who I disagree with even more. Clinton was the most reasonable in this area in my point of view, but Trump people hate her, and Bernie bros do too.

>>36588017
Mostly because she's as corrupt as fuck, and is about as annoying as Ivanka Trump.

>>36587967
>le businesses would leave US meme

No they wouldn't numbnut. You don't just pack up and leave the world's second largest economy.

>>36588206
You do when it makes sense to do so.

>>36587967
>Also, Bernie is a piece of shit who doesn't know shit about working in the private sector.
Amen to that.
https://youtu.be/Rd8z6sFVIEY

>>36588253
Well it wouldn't make sense to leave the US just because the rich are paying more taxes than before.

>>36588278
Watch that link, and see what Sanders means when he is talking about the "rich."

>tfw don't give a shit about politics
>tfw now a massive Trump supporter to piss off faggots like OP

it's not my fault every liberal I've ever come across has been a massive cunt

>>36587100
There are billions of people on the world just as great as he was can you get them all into the USA? At some point you have to think selfishly since it's impossible to provide for everyone.

>>36588411
It would be funny if it weren't also destroying the country.