Taxation is theft.

>>36356340
>roads
>schools
>hospitals
I suppose all these are just gifts then, right?

>>36356366
Yes you built them for me (:

>>36356340
agree because say rural areas, they benefit less from tax money, than say someone living in a city.

disagree because of numerous public works (libraries, water. roads, bridges, school, etc)

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>>36356405
>built them for me
I did this to make you happy anon.
anon, are you happy?

>>36356411
the spending should be proportional to population density, which would naturally favor cities anyway

>>36356411
>>36356366
These have nothing to do with taxes and everything to do with a service being provided in exchange for something of equal or greater value.
Taxes are just some greedy hands being put were they don't belong.

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>>36356497
orREEEEEginal captcha twice fuark

Property is robbery.

>>36356366
I never signed a contract to give my money for the use of those. That I would do so voluntarily is besides the point.

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>>36356340
You get a wide variety of goods and services in return.

>>36356366
I didn't ask for any of that, and the government didn't ask for investors.

>>36356631
You also never signed a contract to be of whatever nationality you are or to even be alive, what's your point?

>>36356656
>I didn't ask for any of that,

The world doesn't revolve around you, dipshit, and you still need those even if you didn't ask for them.

>>36356549
Came here to post this but you beat me to it.

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>>36356656
this is why ideologues are dangerous imagine if you were in power

>>36356672
yes, therefore no expectations can be laid upon me based on these factors

>>36356340
...What do you picture a world without taxes looks like? You realize that that is where a country's income comes from, right?

>>36356471
How about you go fuck yourself with the biggest rake you can find?

>>36356340
You know that nothing is free right?

>>36356497
>cognitive dissonance THIS hard

>>36356694
If I needed them I would pay for them.

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>>36356729
imagine the literal hell on earth it would be for no one to be educated, have electricity, flowing water, law enforcement... it would just be a bunch of militias fighting for the right to enslave betas like you

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>>36356729
Well if you don't want to pay taxes you're free to leave to a place where there are no taxes like the middle of the ocean or some forgotten corner of a third world country.

Sitting there and complaining isn't doing you any good. Theft is done by force against one's will. It's your choice to live in taxland so deal with it or just move.

>>36356760
Um, how is this an argument AGAINST OPs position?

>>36356719
Be pretty great to be honest. Everybody would be a lot richer.

>>36356798
not an originaloblox argument

>>36356794
You would pay for an entire new road? How rich are you?

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>>36356794
>I broke my arm, now let me just pay for an entire god damn fully-staffed hospital built from the ground up

>>36356820
It sure is.

No one is forcing you to stay in a place where you're paying taxes.

>>36356795
none of this follows from what I said
gouvernment is not the only entity that can provide such services

>>36356340
Quick question.

So what? Yeah, taxation is theft. And? What're you going to do? What does that revelation do for anyone?
>it's not fair! Taxation is wrong!
Yeah, well the world is shit, kiddo. Drop the libertarian ideology already.

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>>36356814
>>36356821
>>36356822
>implying there would be money without the government

>>36356848
This is untrue and besides the point.

>>36356856
Nah, but the government managed to divide up the cost over 300+ million people so the strain is not too great for any one individual. This way, many people get something they would otherwise go without.

>>36356340
I am libertarian as well but I still believe in some form of government to keep society running. too much individualism is bad just as too much collectivism is bad because it creates communism. communism is a failed system that failed the soviet union and many countries under communism are miserable.

>>36356875
There would, and it would be real money rather than the worthless monopoly banknotes we have today.

>>36356856
so what?

Everyone but you people is more than happy to have the government provide those services.

If you don't like it, get the fuck out. You're the problem, not the government.

>>36356822
Obviously the free market would build a hospital and then I would pay for the services.

>>36356856
>economically sound ploy
>reliable and accountable investments
why would that be a good move on anyone's part?

>>36356875
I don't know if this is bait, but money is just a specific exchange value between goods. You could easily just substitute something else for it. (Precious metals, digital currency, McDonald's (tm) snack tokens)

>>36356908
Mug gift.

Pull up your pants after removing their dick, asshole. You're embarrassing yourself.

>>36356926
>muh free market
You're as bad as the commiefags. Free markets aren't realistic.

it's extortion

>>36356906
There's no such thing as real money. Money is just an abstract.

>>36356875
Fiat currency? No, it wouldn't exist, but another form of currency would replace it out of convenience
Turns out money makes trading goods and services 1000x faster

>>36356880
I've already asked you like 7 times what your point is

>I don't want to pay taxes
>Okay so go away to where you don't have to pay taxes
>that is untrue and besides the point

then what the fuck?

If I was born into some an-cap society where I have to pay for everything and anything out of pocket all the time, and one day in my rebellious teenage years or early 20s I was thinking that I would to pay taxes so that I can conveniently use goods and services - I wouldn't sit around in the the an-cap society like a dumb asshole complaining about how the free market is slavery. I would move to a civilized state.

Likewise, shut up and move out. Go out and form your own non-state, like a big boy.

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>>36356949
and who would uphold the value of this (((money))) ?
perhaps elect some officials
?
what about foreign trade?
?
perhaps elect some officials

>>36356804
Think of 1st world daily conveniences you and I take for granted, they cost and the money has to come from somewhere.

>>36356926
>the free market would build a hospital

Why should the free market build a hospital?

>>36357037
to scam others in the name of health.

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>>36356340
reeeeeeeeeeeee fuck taxes they take away all our money for stupid shit fuck this and fuck everyone that says roads all the roads in my city are covered in potholes they don't fix the fucking roads they are pocketing it

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>>36356981
>go back in time
originumale

>>36356967
some free market is not bad because you don't want to incentivize bad business practice by bailing out companies.

get the fuck out of here michael

I don't know man, I like being able to go to school or the hospital and it not costing me 50 000$ a pop.

It's a pretty sweet deal if you ask me, but you go do you senpai.

>>36357037
So Dr.shekelstein can drive up in his lambo bankrupt people

>>36357008
How about you adress my argument for once?
Unfortunately there is no fucking libertarian country on the planet and there are no work opportunities on an abandoned oil rig - this is completely besides the point. None of this makes taxes any more legitimate.

>>36356340
yes, but it is a necessary theft

>>36357028
What conveniences do you mean? Which of them can not be financed without coercive means?

>>36357090
only expensive because the government subsidies schools.

>>36357090
Isn't it fun to have ones lifestyle paid for with other peoples money?

>>36357209
>Which of them can not be financed without coercive
where do you think these people learn to do their shit? this is weapons grade autismoli ravioli

>>36357196
In a minarchist scenario (military, police, possibly courts) I would agree. I don't see how paying for Shaniquas 5th baby with my money is a necessity.

>>36357284
not an roboto argument

>>36357319
i'm not really a minarchist, but i agree people who are a drain on the system should be at the very least either put to work or kicked out.

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>>36356340
>tfw no longer are the days of trap threads
>tfw roastie "femanon" orbit threads are dying quick
>from the ashes of dead memes rises a new type of thread like a pheonix
>libertyposting

feels good OP keep it up

>>36357209
Every single one of them, people are assholes and can't see past their own nose, being here, I'd expect you to have realized that.

>>36356656
>I didn't ask for any of that
Fucking kek the absolute state of libertards
>the entirety of Humanity exists to serve my whims. ME!

>>36357558
I need roads, so does everyone else. I'm sure people would find a way to finance them without the threat of a gun.

>>36356967

define realistic

>>36356906
>real money
>real
>money
>real money
Jesus Christ libertarians truly are mentally retarded

>>36357037

if there is an unmet need then the first person to capitalize on said market and provide the need will become a very rich person. health care is a universal, essential, unending need that people will always have a use for. health care is no different than any other service.

>>36357619
I'm sure they wouldn't. The average person is a fucking retarded who will immediately chimpout if they don't have strict order in their lives. People really aren't capable of independent or critical thinking - why do you think there are still so many Christfags around?

Libertarians would stop being libertairiand 30 minutes into econ101.
This thread gave me cancer.

>>36357619

They will fine you, they won't shoot you.

One day perhaps, when we are mature enough as a civilization, but for now, I see a centralized government budgeting services and infrastructure from tax money as the least of evil.

>>36357715
It only requiress a few smart businesspeople to figure something out and the herd will go along with it. Uber didn't get so big because its customers are smart.

>>36357779
The herd won't go along without implicit threat of force. It's literally the only reason people don't go around raping and killing each other.

>>36357755

How so? I'd argue the opposite.

>>36357755
Have you ever been to a legit econ course? Because the opposite is actually much more likely.

>>36357798
Well, force may be applied if they trespass without paying their road toll.

>>36357807
>>36357818
This is actually true, if only because Econ (the study) is so hopelessly devoid from reality and an accurate understanding of Human nature that it drives retards straight into the arms of libertarianism

>>36357846
Exactly, so you can't finance them without the threat of a gun. Otherwise everyone would just use them for free. The only way you'll get people to pay is by threatening them with force if they want to use the service without paying. And so the entrepreneur takes on the trappings of your despised government

>>36357862
It may be abstract but saying that it is devoid from reality is stretching it. You'd be amazed how rational and logical people can become when their self interest is concerned.

>>36357899
Do you understand the difference between positive and negative rights? Forcing you to pay vs. forcing you to pay for use are two totally different things. Police mustn't necessarily be state owned.

>>36357915
People are inherently irrational and rarely act in their perfect best interest, which is what economic theory assumes.

>>36357954
Of course I do, but in this situation it's the same. Either:
A) The government forces you to pay taxes for use of its roads (without which you can't do your job) with the implicit threat of force
Or
B) The roadcorp forces you to pay tolls for the use of its roads (without which you can't do your job) with the implicit threat of force.
Simply calling something voluntary doesn't actually make it voluntary. Eating is technically voluntary - nobody's forcing you to feed yourself - but if you don't you'll fucking die.

>>36357862

>if only because Econ (the study) is so hopelessly devoid from reality

i wouldn't go that far, but economics does fail in that it always assumes 100% rational behavior and its logical corollaries while humans don't always behave as such, which is probably its fatal flaw.

>>36357959
You'd be amazed how rational and logical people can become when their self interest is concerned.

Besides, why should I care about any of that? Why are other people my responsibility?

>>36357959

that doesn't mean economics is completely useless though. we know jack shit about the human brain, but to dismiss the field of psychology as a whole and throw out what little we do know about it would be counterproductive. same with economics.

>>36358028
The fatal flaw is assuming even the majority of Humans act rationally when that obviously isn't the case. With such a terribly incorrect basis, how can the study possibly hope to be even remotely close to reality?

>>36358053
>You'd be amazed how rational and logical people can become when their self interest is concerned.
No, YOU'D be amazed how irrational and illogical people most often are when their self interest is concerned. Humans are sentimental, often retardedly so and RARELY act in their own best self interest. If it were the case that they did, we wouldn't have had fucking serfdom for literally thousands of years. Humans are actually really, really stupid.

>Besides, why should I care about any of that? Why are other people my responsibility?
None at all, so long as you don't mind being senselessly murdered by some retard (or band of retards)

>>36358025
The difference between those two is gigantic. The point was to show that government is not needed for providing these essential things. Since everyone needs them, they'll be financed somehow. All the non essential shit government does, not so much. And assuming I don't need a service, whatever it may be, I won't be forced to pay. That was the whole point.

>>36358025
In a shitty world like this, we should die.

>>36358117
No, you're right that we don't need to throw out the whole of economic theory. But we DO need to stop treating it like gospel when it is almost always incapable of predicting how a real person will act

>>36356340
I agree but I don't care. It's worth stealing from everyone if it means we don't live collectively in a shit hole

>>36358127
Just because humans arent vulcanians doesn't mean that they'll act like fucking chimps with no rationale at all, that all businesses, conventions and societys would fall apart without gouvernment. What a mental leap.

>>36358136
>The difference between those two is gigantic.
Maybe if you're retarded.

>The point was to show that government is not needed for providing these essential things.
"Government" is just a boogeman term. The real issue you have is with people (or groups) extracting money from you for a service when you don't realistically have the option to refuse. This is true in both my above-mentioned scenarios.

>Since everyone needs them, they'll be financed somehow. All the non essential shit government does, not so much. And assuming I don't need a service, whatever it may be, I won't be forced to pay. That was the whole point.
Name one of these hypothetical services that you won't need and won't be forced to pay for in liberland

>>36358209
But that's literally the case in any place you look where central or regional authority and legal violence has fallen by the wayside. People go full chimp whenever the forces preventing them from doing so fall into irrelevancy.

>>36358218
other peoples education, salaries, welfare, ...
literally everything besides roads, military and police.

>>36358239
Businesses still exist, societal hierarchies still exist, smart, rich people are still doing well there.
Also don't compare somalian jungle monkeys to western people.

>>36356340
You ever driven on a road before?
You already shut down your own argument.

>>36358291
Using an essential service on which the government has a monopoly means nothing.
"You're against slavery but still sleep in the shed master provides you? Checkmate."

>>36358291
Have you ever taken your head out of your ass
and thought about building the roads?

>>36358156

don't look at it as predictions and instead look at it as probabilities. economics never pretends to be a hard science where inputting X always gets you Y. it's mostly about assessing probabilities of certain behavior and the incentives underlying such behaviors.

we can assume based on nothing but common sense that the probability of people buying something will increase if the price is lower, and generally, observed behaviors show this to be the case.

>>36356340
>Live in ancapistan
>All capital in all key industries collects under cartels/monopolies in order to turn the greatest possible profit
>Completely fucking inefficient
>Essentially one healthcare provider, one military service, one transport service etc.
>tfw you've just ended up with a pseudo totalitarian government except you don't get a vote
But hey at least there was no violent compulsion, literally nothing is worse than that

>>36358393
except I don't have to pay for peoples welfare and overly complicatet government structures

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>>36358428
civilization doesn't need to go backwards because NEET's can't understand it

>>36358251
But you would still be compelled to pay for a joint education system unless you wanted retarded chimps for kids and neighbours - you most certainly couldn't fund one on your own dime. You would still have to agree to some element of a standardized salary if you wanted to work. You would still need to pay for some kind of welfare unless you wanted literal hordes of poor people chimping out in your backyard. The government maintains all of those services out of your taxes for a reason - primarily to keep the poor from revolting and fucking killing everyone like the Russian Revolution or French Revolution. Unless you wanted something like that and Comissar Tyrone's cronies murdering you, you would still have to pay for those services in one form or another out of necessity.

>>36358288
>he's fallen for the 'westerners are civilized' meme
At the end of the day we're all just barely jumped-up apes anon. And we all have an extreme propensity for (often irrational) violence. You need only look at how Westerners react to a natural disaster they're caught in to see the true face of man.

>>36358474
Not an argument - the post
Fuck off with your retarded post hoc rationalizations.

>>36358573
>Not an argument - the post
Kek, the irony is PALPABLE

>>36356549
Explain please

Fuck the mute

>>36358428
>except I don't have to pay for peoples welfare
Yeah your right, you don't have to pay for anything in ancapistan, you'll just die if you don't. Oh well better than jail or god forbid paying for the healthcare of poor sick people

>overly complicatet government structures
You'll just have to pay some company which has literally no incentive to be efficient and a huge incentive to charge you ridiculous amounts for basic services

>>36357277
everyone pays, dipshit

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>>36356340
Taxation is a necessity in any large society. The actual theft is the % of taxation and where the government spends the money.

Private hospitals are expensive as fuck and almost nobody would be able to afford healthcare in a free market. And roads? And education I'm not sure, I dont like public schools, unless they teach the bare minimum.

anfap is the easiest religion to troll

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>>36359737
>Private hospitals are expensive as fuck and almost nobody would be able to afford healthcare in a free market
That's why when a free market in healthcare actually existed, the government passed laws and restrictions intended to drive up the cost, right?