Free Will Debate

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Fuck off Originally of course

It doesn't matter if there is free will or not. Sooner or later everyone will die and be forgotten.

>>36018277

What do you think that picture has to do with the free will debate?

>>36018472

I don't see why that renders the question meaningless. We also don't really understand the nature of time, or whether death involves the permanent cessation of consciousness.

Personally i am a determinist, so I dont believe in free will.

>>36018636

A lot of determinists claim to believe in "free will" of a kind. They're called compatibilists.

>>36018097
The concept of Free Will shows itself to be preposterous as soon as you attempt to define it

It's the idea of being able to express one's self without being controlled by anything else.

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Past, present future, all your decisions and actions, indeed everything - is predetermined. However, you have free will because you still believe you're making decisions, even though that's an illusion, and should be held accountable for them.
This makes total sense...

>>36019286
actually this

even if everything is predetermined (which it might not be, quantum theory and all that which I don't fully understand), free will still exists in a local space. It would be retarded to say "well, I didn't choose to do thing, I was made to do thing by everything else in the universe" when you clearly can choose to do whatever the fuck you want right now.

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>>36019286
>>36019342
You are both retarded and your positions are self-contradicting. Literally kill yourselves.

Oh, also nuke the middle east.

>>36019213

But we're constantly influenced by the world around us, and the world how it was in the past. The past is what creates our future.

>>36019342

>you clearly can choose to do whatever the fuck you want right now.

So free will is being able to do what you want?

A lot of people would argue the opposite--that free will is the ability to NOT do something, even if you really want to do it.

It seems like these two definitions of free will mean almost exactly opposite things, and yet believers of both tend to reach similar conclusions about things like personal responsibility in a deep sense.

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>>36019286
>>36019543
I am the brit.

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>>36019286
>>36019543
>>36019752

Hey guys how are we doing

>>36019286
wow, that what muslims believe. Hmmmm. do i trust you or not.

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>>36018097
Well as a reformed chirstian, we believe that everything from the waves of the sea to the choices and thoughts we make every day are all predetermined by God. Everything that has ever happened was predestined and will happen, and no one can change it.

This had led to some apologists such as James White to conclude that we as humans have no free will at all but some like Molinist believe that God doesn't predestine evil but rather creates good and out of the free will of the creation comes evil and thus God tries to bring good from the evil and free will of man. See, Crucifixion.

I take the position that we cannot understand how god's sovereignty and human free will can come together. But we as Christians are told to be humble and accept that which we cannot understand and follow the will of god.

Just realised how gay I sound but oh well.

>>36019809
Not really they just believe that everything that will ever happen has been written down. There is still space for free will just that it was all predicted before hand.

>>36020031

>There is still space for free will just that it was all predicted before hand.

That sounds like compatibilist free will, not libertarian free will.

>>36019580
I didn't say others can't influence us. People CAN intervene, BUT you can still chose to do something. ALSO if someone influences your actions, it's your decision.

>>36020087

What do you think "influence" means?

>>36020106
It's the capacity to effect someone or something, but my point is that whoever is influencing you is doing so, because you allow them to.

>>36020087
"You" don't make any decision, your brain does. And your brain is literally just chemical reactions guided by the cause and effect in the unbroken chain of causality since the beginning of the universe. Where does the "You" come into play here?

>>36020206

>my point is that whoever is influencing you is doing so, because you allow them to.

So, if someone steals from you, they have influenced you to be unhappy.

But really it's your fault for choosing to be unhappy about it. You could just use free will to choose to be happy to be the victim of theft.

So really, it's always the victim's fault whenever a crime occurs.

I'm just going by what seem to be the corollaries of your statement. If there's something wrong with the conclusions I've drawn, please point it out to me.

The way I see it is, that a will is always tied to a willer(a being with this this will), and the willer is defined by its composition. The composition of the willer came about independent of the will held by the willer, while this will is a direct result of the composition.
It is therefore impossible to even imagine a will being free in the absolute sense. What I said here, could probably be said in a much simpler way, but I couldn't manage that.

>>36020451
>in a much simpler way
you mean less pretentious?

i think everything is determined, it's not that you can't make decisions it's just that they were inevitable, i was determined to be this way from the beginning of time but it's my own fault

>>36020505
What pretenses do you think I hold?

>>36020552

Don't engage the troll, anon. It's not worth it.

I believe that since history exists only one way, then it can only exist one way. Since things can't happen differently than from how they happen, then our choices don't matter. Free will is indistinguishable from determinism. I choose to just say we have a will but it is not free.

>>36020266
My brain is what creates my conscience. My conscience makes my decisions. The "You" comes from the idea of you. Would you like me to use "one" instead?

>>36018097
It's impossible to do anything without influence from outside. Humans are just animals the advanced brains that react to stimuli. Brains are so good at it we get sad when we have no stimuli.

>>36020305
It's your fault that you are effected by crime. If you don't want someone stealing from you, then don't allow it. Also, in the previous case I was talking about if someone was persuading you to do something. Another thing is, I don't understand how you come to the conclusion of the idea that crime is the victim's fault. If someone steals from you, and you're happy about it then it's hardly theft or robbery.

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>>36020598
This.

The future only holds one specific set of actions for me at any given time, i dont know what i will do exactly ten minutes from now, but i know for sure that i WILL do it. Whatever it is its predetermined and there is nothing i can do about it. Free will probably does not exist, but even if it did it wouldnt make a difference.

>>36020953
How can you be sure that your brain creates your conciousness when i dont thunk anyone has a complete understanding of what conciousness is

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People do not exist independent of brain chemistry.

How can there be free will if every thought is caused by a tiny component of our brain? Wouldn't each thought, idea, or action belong to the neuron that fired it?

The universe is causal and so virtually every single thing that happens is as a result of natural phenomenon governed by the laws of physics. The exact thought you have is a result of the physical structure of your brain, including the chemicals that alter receptor activity and the neuronal connections.

>inb4 "muh quantums"

It doesn't give you any ability to make choices about the physics of the world, dumbass faggots, so it doesn't give you free will.

Oh look, another thread where OP and others like him masturbate to themselves. You guys can debate back and forth and you will NEVER have an answer to your question. There is no point in arguing, just live your fucking life.

>>36022021
Do you suddenly stop living when you argue?

>>36022078
No but you're wasting your time. Philosophy is retarded and if you truly wanted a better understanding of the world you'd study science and math.

>>36022159
Science is built on philosophy. The scientific method is just another word for deduction and induction. In any case it only relates to the mechanisms of physical phenomena, not your existence itself.