Psychological Issues #8

>>35716442
Hello again, Nick.

>>35716467

That was quick!

You and Facet are the two anons I remember very clearly.

Ask me a question.

>>35716481
A question... I can think of none. Where did we leave off last time?

>>35716665
>Where did we leave off last time?

You were confused by my behaviour and intentions; you found it difficult to think someone could really care and things like that. I think.

>>35716695
Ah, yes. Well, do you really find it easy to form a mental representation of anons that you can actually care about just by reading their posts? Can you describe the phenomenology of "caring?" What does it feel like to you?

>>35716825
You're familiar with alexithymia? I often find it difficult to say what an emotion is without resorting to descriptions of physical sensations in the body. In fact, it's tempting to say they are nothing more than that, coupled with thoughts/behaviorally driving component. I believe this is the Jamesian view.

>>35716825
>Well, do you really find it easy to form a mental representation of anons that you can actually care about just by reading their posts?

Yes. I no longer think it's very accurate, because I am aware of how different people can be, but I build it up from anons' own words, and my guesses are often fairly precise or at least lead to interesting discussions.

>Can you describe the phenomenology of "caring?"

I can try. Caring is as natural as breathing to me. My empathy is very intense, it's not something I choose. It's to the point where I sometimes have to remove myself from situations to avoid hurting. Watching a documentary about people in pain requires some preparation on my part, because it will exhaust me, or make me feel intensely sad, hurt, angry, etc.

If you want more technical details, I can't be too useful. If I see someone getting hurt physically, I'll automatically imagine the pain in my own body, probably using the famed "mirror nerves"; I will very regularly feel some sort of phantom pain in my belly if I see someone smashing their head against concrete by accident. More violent material can alter my mood for hours, especially if cruelty is involved.

I'm not sure if I answer the way you expected, but feel free to guide me.

>>35716825
>What does it feel like to you?

I feel the same as I would about myself; in fact, probably more. If it's someone else, it's like I'm more allowed to feel things for them than I would for myself.

This may be due to my upbringing combined with my "good nature". I have two younger brothers whom I had to act as a third parent to throughout our childhood. (One of my brothers says I was really the "first parent".)

Perhaps it came from this. I don't know.

>>35716928
>You're familiar with alexithymia?

I'm not, I'm reading the wiki on it, though.

I have wondered if you felt emotions the way "normal" people do, and I'm not sure.

Would you say emotions are like a world without colours to you?

>>35716969
That is fascinating. It's somewhat strange for me to imagine there are such highly empathic people ambling around. Based on your experiences, would you consider yourself an outlier in this respect? Have you met others with such a potent sense for others feelings?

>>35717034
>Would you say emotions are like a world without colours to you?
I'm not sure I understand the simile. For me, emotions have a physical component (the feeling in your face when you're about to cry, for example) and a cognitive/verbal aspect, which just chatters about what emotion it's likely to be or says things in line with that feeling.

I overeat everyday even though I have an amazing family, am doing well in college, have a good paying job, and in general a high standard of living. I am not seriously overweight as I exercise regularly. I definitely feel like it's a compulsion though, I'll eat and eat until I feel full then do the same hours later. I don't why.

>>35717044
>Based on your experiences, would you consider yourself an outlier in this respect?

It's hard for me to tell, but likely. I've only recently realised that people around me see me as someone special, when I thought I was doing a very good job of looking like a "normie". It shows that I feel for people.

When I was a teenager, I shed tears reading history books, specifically about horrible things humans do. Watching Shoah, for instance, that long documentary by Claude Lanzmann (spelling unsure), was like a mystic journey into pain for me, with many tears being shed.

I cannot watch someone break down in tears without crying myself. I'm having tears right now just thinking about it.

I don't bawl my eyes out like an upset child, I just have tears running down my face and you can tell I'm emotionally engaged to an intense degree. (This isn't happening now, it's what usually happens if someone shares something painful.)

>Have you met others with such a potent sense for others feelings?

I thought I had, and now I am not sure anymore. I might have found someone who fed off people like me, because to certain types, people like me are some sort of caviar. People who feed off the emotions of others see me as some cornucopia of feels.

I know some people who seem to feel the same, but I can never be too sure nowadays (I've been fooled before, so I'm more paranoid now).

The way I'm in touch with my own feelings and those of others generally makes it so that females appreciate me more than I had realised.

And yes, I tend to have issues with other males in that they feel a bit more "autistic" to me than women. At any given party, I will join women to talk; it feels more like my element.

>>35717151

People who feel little emotion often are like colorblind people trying to make sense of traffic lights: they understand what it means, how it works, but they don't see the colours, so they use other parameters to navigate the world of emotions.

I can feel very intense emotions without necessarily linking that to something physical, though there's always something physical, I think. But that's not how I think of emotions primarily.

I feel it in my consciousness is the best description I can give. Very interesting topic.

>>35717160

I'll assume you keep eating far beyond satiation. Have you looked into that type of behaviour?

Whatever it is, it doesn't come from nowhere and it isn't your fault.

When did this start?

Evening. I don't find much pleasure in things anymore, Nick. How can I get my zest for life back?

>>35717345
>How can I get my zest for life back?

Tell me about the time when you did enjoy things.

(I'm happy to see you.)

>>35717260
>I feel it in my consciousness
I have trouble even imagining what this would be like or what it even means. It's really interesting. Do you have a mental image of your own consciousness? What arises in your minds eye when you think of the concept?

>>35717447
Thanks, I've been a bit busy lately. Nice to speak to you too.

If I'm going to answer seriously, I can't really think of being happy particularly. The day at the gym I felt pretty good but there again, I know that was because of the exercise modifying my brain chemistry. Endorphins and the rest. Do you think that counts as happiness?

The rules ITT remind me of what edgar cayce would ask for involving letters ppl sent to him involving their problems.

Are you a secret psychic?

My name is Ned, and I dislike my apathy. Being stuck between identifying my problems and acting to solve them. Constant loneliness and general feelings I could be doing better

>>35717493
>Endorphins and the rest. Do you think that counts as happiness?

If you feel happy, it does. I don't think you can be happy without some brain chemistry involved, even if the reasons are more psychological at bottom, it always translates into some chemistry.

I do work out almost more for my mind than for my body these days.

I keep thinking about you and how you could be helped, or what could be done, and etc. It's fascinating to me.

How do you think of yourself, psychologically? I mean, in terms of disorders and such, what's your own mental identity?

I pull out my pubic hair, the hair on my head, my buttocks, and to be frank, my scrotum. I've done this since I was 18. I'm 20 now.

>>35717550
>The rules ITT remind me of what edgar cayce would ask for involving letters ppl sent to him involving their problems.

I had no idea. I used to listen to Coast to Coast AM and Cayce's name came up often, so I'm somewhat familiar with the man. (I really recommend old Art Bell material to listen to at night, in your bed; human voices go a long way to make you feel less lonely.)

>Are you a secret psychic?

If so, I'm secret to myself, but I will tell you that I have seriously experienced telepathy both ways: someone felt what I felt at the same time, and I felt what that person felt another time. I had written the exact hour, and it worked. I don't know if I project "psychic stuff" or if the other one is the psychic person. I sometimes seem to guess what people are thinking about, and not from verbal cues, I just have the thought in my head.

I generally stay clear of anything weird like this, but weird things do happen.

> Constant loneliness and general feelings I could be doing better

You can do better, Ned. We need to find out what is wrong exactly.

Parents and childhood, go!

>>35717491
I have a sort of golden, undifferentiated mist of qualia in mine. If I try to imagine how different emotions are produced by said mass of qualia, I'm picturing some kind of geometric algorithm that just redirects the flow or intensity of the experiential fluid to produce various physical responses in this psychohydraulic model. Just what floats into my mind, not how I believe it really works.

>>35717652

Well, at least that's original! In my thread, I mean, I'm aware it's a known condition.

I'll assume you enjoy the ritual of it, and probably enjoy the pain of it too. Do you self-harm in other ways?

When did you start doing this?

>>35717652
>I've done this since I was 18.

I realise I asked when you stared; what I meant was whether you remembered any specific event that triggered it.

>>35717491
>Do you have a mental image of your own consciousness?

No, I feel like it's "me", the pilot in the body.

> What arises in your minds eye when you think of the concept?

Nothing much, the undefinable. Sartre wrote that consciousness "is what isn't", that basically everything in the universe is in a way that consciousnes is not, and that consciousness is everything that the outside world is not, or something of the sort.

Consciousness is a never-ending fascination to me. I still don't understand how it can even be, and I doubt neurology will help much.

>>35717571
I tend to think of myself as BPD/ DID. However, after our conversations I described to my group what I was doing to a woman in order to break down and control her. I asked him directly if I was a narcissist and he said 'it would be very unfair to call parts of you narcissistic. Is the young part, crying out for help and all alone, a narcissist?' It seemed like a cop-out to me, but parts of self is very high on the agenda with the group psychotherapy I participate in. He also seems fairly into Freud and those who followed along the same lines.

>>35716442
its this awful incompetent faggot seeking self gratification again

>>35717658

I learn new words with you, qualia, very nice one.

In my mind, things are way more abstract. I don't even have models that I consciously think of. If I start wondering how I perceive this stuff, it makes even less sense than it did before. It's like when you know how to play a song on the piano, with procedural memory, but if you start thinking consciously about what your hands do, you lose the ability to play.

It's way more intuitive to me. I don't picture anything. I don't need to, I guess, I have direct access.

To me, it sounds like this: you get hurt on your hand, instead of feeling the pain, you start picturing the pain as a triangle. It makes very little sense to me, since I feel the pain and that feeling is a phenomena in itself; I need nothing else.

I hope that makes sense...

>>35717743
I am also deeply concerned with the hard problem of consciousness (obsessed, even). If one is serious about alleviating the agony of sentient beings, it's necessary to understand the substrate underlying the experience. But I am almost entirely convinced that the problem is insoluble. Which is cause enough for a negative utilitarian like me to despair.

>>35717756
>I asked him directly if I was a narcissist and he said 'it would be very unfair to call parts of you narcissistic. Is the young part, crying out for help and all alone, a narcissist?' It seemed like a cop-out to me

That took courage on your part. I do personally think you definitely have some very narcissistic traits, potentially NPD, likely more than BPD, because BPD don't plan to do harm to others the way you do. BPD's just think they're defending themselves on the spur of the moment and may end up hurting others in way they don't realise, or ways they realise, but generally in order to enact "justice" as they see it. I don't see that in what you told me.

>him

I wonder who you asked, there's no reference to a man before that pronoun. But whoever that person is, I believe as you do: it's a cop out. Chances are he thinks it's better not to confront a narcissist with the idea that he is a narcissist. Most would not like the idea and may end therapy. That may be why he said what he said, and that's the best case scenario. Worst case, he really thinks what he said.

Rereading, I find it hard to take this person seriously, and I'm not professional, but a narcissist, at bottom, IS a wounded child acting out on the wound, and yes, that's the most narcissist a person can be.

>He also seems fairly into Freud and those who followed along the same lines.

Run. I have an intense dislike for psychoanalysis, apart from Jung. Freud served a purpose but many of his ideas need to die in a fire.

>>35717793
>its this awful incompetent faggot seeking self gratification again

There are nicer ways to say you need to talk to me.

Don't be shy.

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>>35717756
>I tend to think of myself as BPD/ DID.

Whenever I read DID, I think pic related.

grad student in a psych field reporting in if anyone needs anything and wants a second opinion

>>35717926

Same. Consciousness alone was a very strong element in my previous religious attempts. Music and consciousness were champions in my own personal apologetics.

>>35717840
I have a conception of more or less all mental activity as a physical/temporal pattern (a pain in my hand is a periodic pulsation through a branch of neurons stretching out from the coiled forest of dedrites and axons of my brain). That's the sort of geometry I conceive of pain as being. I try to deconstruct the feeling and develop a spatial model of it or it's incomprehensible.

>>35718047

I would like your opinion on how to differentiate BPD from NPD. I have my own ideas but I'm really interested in what you have to say on that topic.

>>35718100

I see, but that is not what pain is to me. That's how pain "arrives", but it only exists as pain in your consciousness, otherwise it's just mechanical stuff, and that, to me, is completely secondary.

If you were a brain in a vat, and you were made to feel pain, that pain would be just as real in your consciousness, but there'd be no dedrites and axons or anything.

>>35718011
He's a smart man and he's had some interesting anecdotes and things. The purpose of therapy, he says, is to reconstruct a family (the group) and learn to operate on agreements, both within the group and internally, before making decisions. The group consists of myself, him, a very weak-willed apologetic man and a bipolar older woman who reminds me of my mother. As you might imagine, there are sparks there quite regularly.

I've made some decisions that have mitigated damage to myself and others thanks to his support. I've been in counselling and therapy in one way or another throughout my life and this is the only time it's felt remotely worthwhile. I do think part of that is because he's been the first male therapist outside of a little counselling in university, and perhaps unsurprisingly I haven't got along with female therapists. They find me too confrontational, perhaps. I have no faith in others, and it takes time and effort to prove otherwise. He seemed to be willing to put the time in rather than simply take offence and give up.

Speaking of university counselling, I remembered something that reminded me of our conversations the other day. I remember that I was in a lousy mood, really off the rails with drink and whatever else I could get my hands on. Anyway I dragged myself into the counsellor's waiting room. Looking around and seeing all those miserable students just perked me right up. I didn't go in - I was brightened up for the rest of the day. I tried to persuade my way into a therapy group while I was there, but perhaps reasonably I was denied. I certainly wasn't trying to get there for help.

>>35718147
I would still use my sense of spatial reasoning and store of learned facts to arrive at some model of the physical phenomena giving rise to the experience, whether the theory is correct or not. I can't conceive of something that isn't geometry.

>>35718246
>The group consists of myself, him, a very weak-willed apologetic man and a bipolar older woman who reminds me of my mother. As you might imagine, there are sparks there quite regularly.

My first reaction is: why? The family is the lot of you, right? You're not related in any way. Were you guys selected for a specific reason?

Do you have issues in common? Is this better than one on one therapy?

>>35718147
>>35718259
Are you sympathetic to dualism? The mechanical basis of consciousness is all there is to me. It's not satisfying as an explanation, but I've never heard anyone say anything on the topic of consciousness that was.

>>35718102
i don't see how they're related too much? one is primarily self-obsession and heightened ego, and one is nearly bipolar in fundamental nature. i'd say any ego coming from someone with BPD is delusion/ignorance, and BPD people are easily affected by emotions (not all but it will differ individually). i have known one girl with BPD, one girl who I would bet cash money is BPD, and one girl who is/was in the process of being diagnosed with BPD, and the variance is wild between.

>>35718246
>seeing all those miserable students just perked me right up.

Man... Reading this is like reading absolute nonsense to me. I understand the logic there, but I cannot in anyway relate, because I can't see in me a reason to get perked up from that sight. Can you explain the logic behind it, for you? Is this a conscious process? I wonder.

(And put that name on.)

>>35718259
>I can't conceive of something that isn't geometry.

Fascinating. If you love someone, do you think of it as geometry too? What do you see?

Also, do you tend to form the same models for the same things over time or does it always vary?

>>35718314
>Are you sympathetic to dualism?

If you mean Descartes and the idea of a soul in a body, I certainly used to be and I most likely have kept remnants of that way of thinking. I wouldn't say "soul" literally nowadays, but I would say consciousness, yes.

The mechanical side of it is not the central part, to me, because no mechanical explanation satisfies how consciousness can even be.

>>35718280
Specifically for the transferrence and counter-transferrence potential. He thinks I might get answers from this woman that I could never get from my mother because there's a familiarity but also a distance. Likewise, she can talk to the bikers that fuck her and her daughter's abusive boyfriend (she clearly did a number on her daughter). Aside from parallels in our own lives the uniting factor is that we all had very poor upbringings in one way or another, and that has in each case resulted in interpersonal issues, disordered thinking and identity, and some psychosis.

>>35718325
It's difficult to say exactly why, except that I'm some sort of psychic vampire. I saw how miserable they looked and imagined how pathetic their problems must be and the idea that these boring, two dimensional people were suffering made me feel better about my own suffering. Perhaps if I imagined that people felt as strongly as I do, or existed as acutely, then I might have been affected in a different way. I just struggle to imagine that other people are whole rather than partial beings.

>>35718323
>i don't see how they're related too much?

Really? For one, they're comorbid at a 25% rate if I recall correctly. That's very high. For two, both disorders tend to lead to comparable actions, though their intent is where the difference is, but you then have the problem of identifying intent.

>self-obsession

Since it's not the real self, I'd never call it that. I'd say false-self building obession, but even obsession sounds off here, since a narcissist can't really do anything else, throughout his conscious life. More of a condition than an obsession.

>and BPD people are easily affected by emotions

More like they have far more intense emotions than non-BPD, which affect them very dramatically.

I'll give you an example for BPD/NPD and how to differentiate: someone gives you the silence treatment.

Both BPD and NPD do it. It looks the same. Now, BPD will do it because they need to remove themselves from the interaction, so they can cool down, and become more normal, whereas NPD will do it as a plan to hurt you.

If you read about it, you'll see that BPD are often talked of as though they were NPD, it can get confusing very quickly, but I don't think they're the same at all, and intent is what marks the difference, even if the act is the same thing.

>>35718349
It's not even necessarily specific models, just the sense that there must be one and it must conform to something akin to geometry. I don't have a specific representation for advanced topics in particle physics but I am unable to believe that it's fundamentally something non-geometric, even if the black box details aren't filled in for me. Yes, I would view a person I love as a fluctuating system of particles. Not to say I wouldn't ascribe consciousness to them, I would in the same way I do for myself. I don't see why this would reduce my capacity for liking them.

>>35718426
>He thinks I might get answers from this woman that I could never get from my mother because there's a familiarity but also a distance.

Sounds very dangerous to me. It's like using other people to project your own stuff onto.

I also question the validity of putting messed up people together. I benefit a lot from being around people who aren't messed up, even though I sense the difference and I feel bad for being different. Put me in a group of fucked up individuals and I will feel awful and I'll go crazy if I'm supposed to do therapy with them.

Are you sure you don't enjoy this way of doing therapy because it gives you potential targets? And that you perhaps enjoy their problems?

>>35718426
>the idea that these boring, two dimensional people were suffering made me feel better about my own suffering

I see. That's where this would break for me, because I'd realise I don't actually know jackshit about these people and for all I know they might be geniuses, intensely interesting people, people who may be smarter than me, more learned about this and that, and whose lives are interesting.

>Perhaps if I imagined that people felt as strongly as I do, or existed as acutely, then I might have been affected in a different way.

Bingo. It sounds like you couldn't feel joy from their pain if you considered them more objectively, meaning, not as objects, but as real people, who are as real as you are (possibly more real, at that).

> I just struggle to imagine that other people are whole rather than partial beings.

That's a hell of a sentence. How can you think of people as partial beings?

How come you see yourself as a whole person, but not others? (Especially when you know you have severe issues most of these people don't have, which makes you lacking, not them; very curious about that stuff.)

>>35718386
That's just the point. Even if there's some numinous substance that floats along with our brains and is undetectable, it seems to just shift the goalpost without changing the nature of the explanation.

>>35718561

This is like speaking with alien life to me. Man... I keep wondering why you need to modelise things that don't need to be modelised, that exist in and of themselves already, you know?

If I love someone, I feel it, that's tangible, it's right there. I don't need to translate it into something else.

Perhaps you do this because you have diminished emotions, if at all, and that's why you need a model for them? Just wondering aloud.

>>35718572
Well yes, he wants us to do that and we're all aware that that's what's going on. It's actively encouraged.

There was one group member who was absolutely prey material. A cutter-type girl, quite vulnerable. Definitely had her in my sights but she left for unrelated reasons. The woman who's there I have some respect for, but she also pisses me off with her feminist attitudes. The other male I feel a little protective of because he reminds me of my brother - something I imagine that the therapist did intentionally. He's a virgin in his mind-thirties so we don't directly remate on many things.

>>35718661
The only time I imagine that they may be geniuses, more interesting and whatever else, is when I consider that they could be a threat in some way. Before that point, they're cardboard.

Perhaps I don't see myself as 'whole' in that there are pieces missing. Whereas for them, I imagine that they've been given half a page as orientation and told to exist around me, making the most of that threadbare material. Little more than mannequins.

>>35718518
This example is amusing, since I tend to use that method to foster dependence; to neglect in order to make my presence felt by its absence. I know it can hurt, but the pain is just a conditioning tool rather than an end unto itself.

>>35718749
I don't view this as an aspect of my aberrant psychology, I think it's just a mostly healthy if somewhat obsessive towards philosophical atomization. I want to understand the world both for its own sake and so that, should I fall into a position to be able to, I'll have the intellectual tools to help people.

>>35718854
*somewhat obsessive tendency

>>35718749
I think I definitely have emotions, probably even of regular intensity (and not just negative ones), I just experience them differently or perhaps refract them through an unusual lense.

>>35718797
>Well yes, he wants us to do that and we're all aware that that's what's going on. It's actively encouraged.

I wonder if this is really wise a thing to do. I can't imagine it being a good thing: you become a screen for others and they become screens to you. How is anyone supposed to get saner with this?

>A cutter-type girl, quite vulnerable. Definitely had her in my sights but she left for unrelated reasons

Case in point. No offense but nobody should be in a group with you, especially not for therapy.

> when I consider that they could be a threat in some way. Before that point, they're cardboard.

People are either dull, uninteresting, or threats (or prey). You live in a very hostile world. I wonder how you see me.

> to neglect in order to make my presence felt by its absence.

I'm very interested in that, as I might be the victim of it. What's the condition for this treatment to continue satisfying you? If you feel it keeps affecting the person? Would you go on for months if it kept delivering?

>>35716442
Hello. I have a problem, I suppose. I would like to hear if anyone can relate or offer advice.

In the past few years I have begun feeling increasingly apathetic towards, well, everything. I'm at the point where I just don't care about anything, which has led to some suicidal feelings.

I just don't see a point to life anymore. Why should I go through such a (seemingly) meaningless existance filled with hardship so I can die one day, instead of just offing myself now?

What's the point?

>>35719045

I can relate. I'm slowly coming off it, though. There have been very definite events for me, leading to this, both in the distant past and recent months.

The question isn't "why", but how to get you to feel better. You undoubtedly have a problem, and it as a root.

What you feel is a healthy reaction to something, we just need to find what.

Facet,

I would like to know how far you can go into machiavelianism, how sophisticated can your plans be?

I couldn't, for any reason, ignore someone, and especially not for the reason of hurting them, or making myself sorely needed. This is so utterly impossible for me that it is difficult to imagine anyone could do this, but it may be so.

Do you seek information on how to hurt people efficiently? I sometimes have the impression that what I said is being used against me, but always presented as if that was not the case, and only incidental or accidental.

I'd like to know more on how you scheme.

(I still can't believe you really do this, and I must remove my disgust just so I can speak to you rationally; if I don't, I become very angry at the idea of being so cruel to others.)

>>35719088
>What you feel is a healthy reaction to something

That's an interesting perspective. I hadn't considered that.

>we just need to find what.

Okay. And how do you propose we figure that out?

>>35719218
>That's an interesting perspective. I hadn't considered that.

Most people, especially on this board, will make themselves guilty of way too much. You don't get depression unless you have a good reason to be this way.

>Okay. And how do you propose we figure that out?

Are there any obvious reasons known to you?

Are there any traumas in your past?

Describe your parents and your childhood.

>>35719020

I suppose the goal would be a measurable change in behaviour. A reduction in undesirable behaviours, and an increase in desirable ones. If they behave well the result is positive reinforcement through praise. If they behave poorly then they're neglected. The attention is turned off and they become desperate to get it back. This drought causes changes in behaviour for fear of it happening again. I'm quite a fan of Skinner, by the way.

I suppose the assumption is that I will never be able to get my mother into therapy or to engage meaningfully, or ever to apologise. Likewise, the other guy will never sit down with the parents who put him up for adoption. In lieu of that, talking it through with comparable people might at least help us to understand. It's similar to the answers that you want from me in that regard.

As it is, I do find our talks stimulating but I can't see you as a whole person. After all, you're only showing a single face: an ersatz therapist/ psychologist who has parental issues of his own. You could very easily be completely artificial. So I enjoy talking to you but you're not 'real' for me. Have you heard of Eliza, the computer programme?

No offence taken. I'm not really sure what the therapist was thinking there but if she comes back she will become the focus of the sessions for me. At one point I was thinking of pursuing the older woman's daughter. I would know her by sight, and where she works. So in that respect, perhaps it's not totally sensible to have me in that group. Perhaps the therapist has faith that I can overcome these darker urges. Perhaps he's right, or perhaps it's more effort than it's worth when I have a good thing going.

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>>35719331
>I suppose the goal would be a measurable change in behaviour. A reduction in undesirable behaviours, and an increase in desirable ones. If they behave well the result is positive reinforcement through praise. If they behave poorly then they're neglected. The attention is turned off and they become desperate to get it back. This drought causes changes in behaviour for fear of it happening again. I'm quite a fan of Skinner, by the way.

So control is the main thing here. I suppose someone who shows that he won't remain controllable might make you give up on them.

I prefer this Skinner. But yeah, I know what you're talking about very well.

>>35719164

>>35719164
Ignoring to hurt or control is definitely something I would do, and have done.

I do seek useful information and log it for later use. As I mentioned above, I have information on the older woman - how much she cares about her daughter, how to push her buttons, how to use her daughter to push them - and I store that information in case it is useful to me later. For example, if I feel injured by her in some way. If she wounds my ego too keenly, then I will work my way into her daughter's life. I don't think it will ever happen - just an idle fancy - but it's nice to have the information if I do decide to go down that route. Meanwhile I share freely about my own issues and life but I certainly don't give them enough that they'd have names and places sufficient to launch a meaningful counterattack.

If I disgust you, I'm sorry to hear that. Everything I do makes perfect sense to me, and I seldom act without provocation. It's mostly in the interest of self-preservation. Though admittedly, self-amusement can be a factor from time to time.

>>35719331
>In lieu of that, talking it through with comparable people might at least help us to understand. It's similar to the answers that you want from me in that regard.

Touch[e]. (This board removes all my accents.)

That makes more sense this way. I'm not quite sure you're comparable enough. Mostly because I'm not sure what I'm dealing with. You probably speak to me with more honesty than I ever got from the other one.

I may have spoken with Eliza, if she's available online, otherwise no.

>the focus of the sessions for me. At one point I was thinking of pursuing the older woman's daughter.

Can you take me through your cycle here? What's the pattern? What do you do, what do you think? And why? Give as many details as you want.

>>35719250
>Are there any obvious reasons known to you?

Well, like many people on this board I'm quite isolated. I chat with a few internet friends once in a while but that's about it.

>Are there any traumas in your past?

Not that I can think of.

>Describe your parents and your childhood.

My father's an immigrant. I had a relatively normal childhood 'till around 6, when he was sent to, well, a mental institution might sound dramatic but something like that. Never got to see him much. I'm an only-child and my grandfather (non-immigrant side) died when i was very young, so I was often (or, well, always) the only male.

My father was later (around when I was 9 I think) moved to a prison of sorts, and was deported back to his home country when I was 11. Visited him when I could but my family (without a provider) was not exactly wealthy.

Never found out exactly why things happened the way they did. Though I heard something about him being a veteran and something-something PTSD.

My mother is relatively normal, but also a bit of a shut-in. My grandmother (again, non-immigrant side) has asthma and, to be quite honest, I doubt she will live for many more years.

>>35719413
>Ignoring to hurt or control is definitely something I would do, and have done.

I am unable to do this, even when it's for the benefit of the other person, as in to show limits to a BPD. I could never do it, ever.

>I do seek useful information and log it for later use.

That's so damn cold, man. I kind of do the same but with the exact opposite intention: I try to find what ails people so that I can help them, or at the very least, avoid what hurts them.

I know a coworker had a father who died due to alcoholism and that any topics related to drinking is a sore spot for her, so I never mention it or drink alcohol next to her. I suppose you'd drop stuff about alcohol around her, since she doesn't know I know (got it from another source), that way she cannot think you're doing it FOR her. That's nasty.

>>35719413
>If I disgust you, I'm sorry to hear that.

Are you really? I don't mean to offend you, or make you feel bad, but I'm just constantly shocked and interested by how you think. You speak of doing such hateful things as if it was nothing. It's bizarre!

Now you're saying it's self-defense, but do you really need to defend yourself from a prey or do you just go after them for no other reason than hunting them?

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>>35716442
My parents seperated when I was really REALLY young. I was diagnosed with high functioning autism about this time. Then my mom married a stolen valor guy and moved to america and I was estranged from my father at this point

They never hit me but I always every night had to listen to loud angry arguing and drunken fighting and I have very very vivid memories of my mom pouring alcohol down the sink ect

around this time I start getting bullied relentlessly at school. I never got beaten up but it was nonstop whole class laughing at me etc.

Later my mom started to scream at me very regularly. I used to have autistic breakdowns where I couldn't take it and wouild spazz out on the floor while she kept screaming hurtful things at me, words that'd pierce my heart really shitty things. I started to get gender dysphoria

well I think my moms realized what she's done and shes nice to me now pand I don't live with her though

but I find it so difficult to even have conversations with people. even at college I sit next to the door and leave as soon as possible I only give people short replies etc. I try not to look at people and I don't make a lot of eye contact. sometimes I get really REALLY angry and feel like smashing my possessions. I have also ghosted everyone I talked to at the last college I was at. I've ghosted women who were interested in me I've aklso diud the short reply thing to attractive women because I've began to expect the viseral disgust normies feel when they sense you are not neurotypical

is someone like me cureable? I havent killed myself solely because I can play music

>>35719478
Well, her mother is becoming anxious. She sees that this man treats her with little respect. She fears that he is violent (though based on the information she provided that seems unlikely). The daughter allows herself to be treated poorly. To be used by someone as a bit on the side. She went along with it. Now, by my twisted logic the daughter seeks out these kinds of men because of damage done to her by her mother and the transient father figures in her life. The disrespect, the control, the rest. So anything I did decide to do to her, well, I'd fit in like putting on a glove. She already 'knows' me. As you and I have discussed before, we're drawn together. So anything I did to cause harm to the mother through her would only be punishing her for causing the issues in her daughter. If she'd been a stable, responsible parent then I wouldn't get close. I don't deserve to get a foot in the door. But where any sensible person would run, she'd spread her legs. Really though, I'd mostly be doing it for the benefit of the mother. My mother? Oh, Freud!

>>35719559
I don't know. If I was trying to soften her up emotionally in order to produce some kind of favourable outcome then yes I might get her feeling weaker by alluding to alcohol in some way. However, I would typically be very respectful and use the information exactly as you describe.

>>35719651
I'm not offended. No one wants to be disgusting, but yes it does seem like nothing to me. A day at the office.

>>35719522
>Well, like many people on this board I'm quite isolated. I chat with a few internet friends once in a while but that's about it.

This alone is enough for depression. Be sure you know it.

OK, your father sounds like he could have had BPD, and your mother may have been less normal than you think. Nobody fully normal is a shut in.

You probably suffered from neglect as a child (and it's a form of abuse).

You aren't even informed on your father's condition; that is serious stuff. Can nobody inform you? Doesn't your mother know? I believe there are more answers to be found in all this than you realise.

What did your father do to get imprisoned? Or institutionalised. Any details?

>>35716442
Hello anon, you are doing a good job! (sorry for fucked up english, it's not my first language and it's late where I live.
My problem:
Around 6-8 I started to talk about sex a lot, like constantly. I also said and did things that remind my of rape scenes when I think about it today, like always repeating a dialogue were one person says: "NO! NO! NO!", and the other person says: THOUGH! TOUGH! TOUGH!.
Around that time a also cried a lot and couldn't handle stress at all. I'm grossed out by the thought of sex, but I still have sexual desires. I'm afraid of intimacy and I don't like being touched. I tend to be paranoid but and have no lasting relationship to any friend. When I talk to people, especially to women or a group, it's just a matter of time until I make a fool of myself, because this is the only way I can communicate with people.
My question is: Is there any chance that I wasn't molested? What else could cause my symptoms?

>>35718561
>>35718749
ok this is odd as hell...I tend to view myself as fairly empathetic and certainly in touch with intuitive 'direct' feeling

but I also totally get what metapsych means...actually its somewhat of a belief for me...I think reality at its most basic always has to break down into binary math, and anything with physics and a world like ours tends to be geometric math.

I dont feel like I have a similar way of viewing pain/emotions as metapsych does since I feel everything pretty damn directly. But I think I know what is meant there.

I'm curious for both of you have you ever taken acid or any other hallucinogen?

>>35719655
>They never hit me but I always every night had to listen to loud angry arguing and drunken fighting and I have very very vivid memories of my mom pouring alcohol down the sink ect

This is already abuse, be sure to know it.

>around this time I start getting bullied relentlessly at school. I never got beaten up but it was nonstop whole class laughing at me etc.

Very traumatic too. I'd rather get punched than laughed at by a whole class.

> I used to have autistic breakdowns where I couldn't take it and wouild spazz out on the floor while she kept screaming hurtful things at me, words that'd pierce my heart really shitty things.

Anon, I don't think autism is your issue here. These breakdowns aren't a form of autism. Holy shit, man, this is really tough stuff. Read about complex PTSD (CPTSD). Your mother sounds like a case. Fucking hell...

>well I think my moms realized what she's done and shes nice to me now pand I don't live with her though

If you think she means it, then look into Borderline for her; if you think she fakes it, look into Narcissism.

>is someone like me cureable? I havent killed myself solely because I can play music

Yes, all you wrote, the last big paragraph, sounds like CPTSD, due to an abusive childhood.

Read about it and report back, but I think we have a winner here.

I'm sorry for what happened to you, anon. You deserved better and we'll try to make it better for you now.

One thing I do think I should mention is that you've described my behaviour as hateful on more than one occasion. However, I don't really feel as though I hate anyone. If you consider misanthropy adequate enough then yes, that's hatred of a sort. On an individual basis though I wouldn't say that I hate with specificity. In a way hate is the default, but it's a passive thing. An outward-facing depression. Everything and everyone are filtered through a blackened lens. I don't think that describes the intensity or intimacy of real loathing.

>>35719753
>What did your father do to get imprisoned? Or institutionalised. Any details?

I don't really know. I never asked, since we never talk about it.

I do remember overhearing something about a fire, which makes sense considering a local building burned down around the time my father was institutionalized.

>You probably suffered from neglect as a child (and it's a form of abuse).

Can you expand on this?

>>35716442
why do people with no social skills like to initiate conversations with me and then leave me to do all the "work" in the conversation? Every interaction leaves me exhausted. And then I have nothing to say.

I'm starting to think I just hate talking to people. I have ADHD and struggle to communicate but I've improved a lot lately, but it seems like getting social skills means I end up wanting to be alone for a week after one conversation. I have like 3 friends who I like to talk to, other than that I can't stand social events.

Starting to think I have girl-autism or something.

>>35719719

This is fascinating. If there's more you want to share, just type away. I'm reading every word.

>>35719894
by social events I mean... anywhere you have to talk to anyone

>>35719831
I've taken hallucinogens multiple times (never LSD but research chemicals like 25i)

>>35719764

I remember you from the previous thread. I wasn't there when you posted but I read it afterwards.

>you are doing a good job!

Thank you!

>What else could cause my symptoms?

I suppose you don't have any memories? I don't remember (much) abuse that was sexual in nature, but I do share some of your symptoms. I don't like being touched (though that one would depend a lot on the situation), and I always had strong reactions to rape scenes.

How do you feel when you watch documentaries about pedophiles and such? That's another thing that used to make me feel very, very bad, before I realised it may hit "home" more than I thought.

Something's up in your past, anon, we need to find out.

>>35719910
Is there anything specific you'd like to know? I'm unsure what there is to add.

>>35719831
>I'm curious for both of you have you ever taken acid or any other hallucinogen?

I've taken some mushrooms, but just enough to get the giggles and nothing more.

>>35719849
>you've described my behaviour as hateful on more than one occasion. However, I don't really feel as though I hate anyone.

It is hateful in the sense that a normal person would hate it, as I do. I hadn't considered whether you hated people or not. Now that I do, I'm not sure at all.

How do you choose your targets?

>>35719874
>Can you expand on this?

I recommend you go through a list of all the forms of abuse, because you've been through a bunch already and never thought it was abuse, I think.

>absent father
>secrets about the family
>institution, prison, no explanation given to you
>neglect from absent parent

Not being given what you need as a child can have serious consequences too, and is abuse, whether intentional or not.

http://www.blueknot.org.au/Resources/General-Information/Types-of-child-abuse

Read this.

So pretty much I've never had any trouble with actually socializing...when in a social situation I can act completely normie if needed. I have lots of anxiety underneath that, I guess I'm just really good at hiding it. I actually kinda always thought of myself as clearly being weird. Only in the last few years (im 19 now) have I started to realize that most of my social anxiety is almost always either invisible or just ignored by others. This is kinda comforting, because I realized its actually way easier to act normie than I thought...but the internal experience is still shit and leads to me getting anxious at the thought of any socialization at all, even just buying something somewhere...usually I just try to ignore that but no doubt I'd be out more and maybe even have some irl friends.

>>35719964
>>35720001
ah. cool. I've kinda always looked at things in that geometric sort of way to a slight degree I feel like, but after taking acid I began to see that as the only way things can truly be, no matter what.

>>35719894
>and then leave me to do all the "work" in the conversation?

I'll assume they're interested in you, and you don't see it because you don't believe it. Maybe?

I don't really believe in ADHD, every time I've faced it, it was something else.

You're definitely introverted in the Jungian sense of the term. You may be hyper-vigilant, and you may feel bad when you think you disappoint other people. You may also adapt to everyone you speak to, instead of being yourself in every case.

I'm just guessing, confirm or deny.

>>35716442
But why? What are you going to do, what do you hope to achieve?

>>35719981
>Is there anything specific you'd like to know?

Yeah, loads. I don't really have a good picture of what you do. I think you take for granted much more than I know, but I don't know.

Give me an example of how you target someone, attack them, etc, because I'm still unsure. Sometimes you say it's to defend yourself, other times it's more like hunting. Maybe I'm not seeing things straight.

>>35720113
>I began to see that as the only way things can truly be, no matter what.

Geometry can't exist in this world, it can only exist ideally, which is to say, not.

>there are no real triangles in this world, it only exists truly as an idea

Any triangle you draw or make is not a triangle if you go close enough, etc.

>>35720170
>But why?

Because people might benefit from my help.

>What are you going to do, what do you hope to achieve?

Talk with you, make you feel better, possibly discover new things and get pointers for a better life.

>>35719845
Thank you nick I didn't know about cptsd I do feel like I have a lot of those symptoms. one especially is that you feel like you are innately different than other people

reading the see also I see maladaptive daydreaming. I used to put music on and pace around my room in circles imagining stories

I want to improve my life so desperately even clean my room regularly but I always end up staying in my room

UIm happy to see that this one seems to have a cure thgough I thought I might have had avoidant personality but that one doesn't have a cure aparantly

do yuou think I'd be better trying to find a psychiatrist vs a therapist?

>>35720163
>You may be hyper-vigilant, and you may feel bad when you think you disappoint other people. You may also adapt to everyone you speak to, instead of being yourself in every case

holy shit yeah I adapt. You're fucking smart man. I don't know how not to any more, when I'm relaxed and normal nobody understands what the fuck I'm talking about, or they get freaked out by my speech patterns.

In terms of ADHD symptoms I experience it's mainly brain fog, so I slip in and out of conversations without realising. I had a lot of surgery as a baby/kid, it might have fucked up my brain.

Just lately I've felt like I'm surrounded by needy people who just want advice or support from me. I've had a lot of rando facebook messages today from lonely people and I can't stand the guilt of not wanting to talk to someone who is obviously in need of human contact. I'd happily live alone if I had money, living with people who need to be emotionally cared for is driving me up the wall.

>>35720241
So you don't believe geometry exists? Geometry is our idealization of real regularities between relationships in the world. An imperfect triagle doesn't disprove the existence of geometry. Would you contend that there exists no two points in real space such that all points between them form a straight line?

>>35719978
>I remember you from the previous thread. I wasn't there when you posted but I read it afterwards.
Wow thank you.
>How do you feel when you watch documentaries about pedophiles and such?
I don't know. I was always very emphatic towards innocent beings like animals and children. I feel nothing when I think about one adult killing/harming another, but thinking of a child being abused makes me really angry, but I suppose that's normal.
>Something's up in your past, anon, we need to find out.
My parents split up when I was 2-3, I can remember some things from my early childhood, one is moving into the new apartment with my mother. My father used to be a drug dealer, my mother mother moved out with me because we were robbed and taken hostage by a gang or something (can't remember it, mom told my a couple of months ago). My father also tried to kill myself and take me with him by driving a car into a bridge when I was 4 (can't remember, mom told me)
Police arrested him 1 fucking day before my sixth birthday and put him away for like 2,5 years.
After that, I went to elementary school and lost all my friends I had at the time because we moved. I was bullied and beaten by older students everyday, and escaped more into my own world everyday.

>>35720283
>do yuou think I'd be better trying to find a psychiatrist vs a therapist?

I'm not qualified enough to give you a good opinion on this, as it really depends on the person. I generally make a difference between psychologists and psychiatrists; the latter are doctors while the former aren't, but who's to say which is best for you?

What you can do, though, is seek someone who specialises in the symptoms you have. They're very intense, and I'm 99% sure it's not autism at all. Anyone dealing with abusive childhood will be able to help you, but trust your feelings: if the person you see doesn't make you feel good after a few sessions, try someone else.

It may take some time. I wasn't sure about mine, but even the first time I felt good. And then it just got confirmed.

I'd go for a psychologist, because your issues are way more than a brain dysfunction, and meds aren't the solution for what you have.

That'd be my opinion.

>>35720112
I gotta say, the "signs in childhood" part of the emotional abuse segment fits my current and past life perfectly. It's almost scary how accurate it is.

Well, what do you think I should do? And what should I avoid doing? It's getting late and I have school tomorrow, so I'm going soon.

>>35720241
geometry is more in the context of physical systems and fractals and such and yes if you keep 'zooming in' then theres always more detail, thats fractal geometry. Basically if we're in a true base reality and not a simulation, then our reality exists as fractal geometry. For our universe as we know it, if we 'zoom in' far enough, if its a simulation than I believe we'll eventually find a 'pixel' or 'bit' of reality itself. If we don't live in a simulation then yes you can always zoom and theres more, its infinite geometry. In fact a fractal literally can only exist as idealized geometry, any fractal zoom on youtube or anything is some finite count of iterations. True fractals are truely infinite (perhaps the process of advancing iteration is what becomes time?)

This is gonna be gay as fuck but I hate myself for being sexually attracted to this guy who is about 10 years older than me because he's hitting on me. Why the fuck am I like this?

>>35720205
Well, in the example I gave above I know that in one way or another I may have made myself vulnerable. Thus I accumulate as much information about the others in order to insulate myself. It's important to have leverage and ideally enough that they have more to lose than I would. That's the only way I can really trust someone: when I know that they stand to lose more by acting against my interests since to self-destruct would be irrational. People can become very irrational of course in which case you need a proportionate threat. Normally people will simmer down when faced with a proximal threat. So I just bide my time, listen, offer encouragement, nod at the right time. In the above case I told her she was right to be concerned and that he had no right to behave in that way etc etc so she would open up more. I sabotaged myself somewhat later though, because I've been honest about one of my hunts in session and so obviously she'll be more guarded in future.

Anyway, on a hunt the approach is most difficult. The communication that can pass between us alone is truly special. If you imagine that you saw a ghost and you shared this intense moment, its eyes locked on yours, that might be something that would be burned into your memory. However, if you were there with a friend it's a shared experience - remember when we saw that ghost? - rather than one between you and the spirit itself. Thus, the more time alone, the more power I have.

I show a little vulnerability, a little trust. I give some information about myself, or partial info, or a complete lie. They become invested in this story and in my trust in them. Then, I will introduce contradictions so that gradually the truth will become less important than the now-fluid story they have to believe. If it gets to that stage they can't trust their own recollection or themselves at all. Only what I say at a given moment has meaning.

>>35720344
>I don't know how not to any more

The cause of this, usually, is that you had to adapt as a child, typically to your parents, who may be narcs. I can relate to what you say, a lot, and I can guess the rest because I function the same way, though I try to re-educate myself and change, and it works. My parents were absolute narcs, and I always had to adapt and know exactly what they thought and felt, so I'd know how to behave. I then did this with everyone, and so everybody loved me, and I didn't know what my normal behaviour was because I always adapted.

>brain fog

Dissociation: derealisation and/or depersonalisation. I've had the first a lot after long periods of anxiety; the most hateful thing I've ever experienced.

>Just lately I've felt like I'm surrounded by needy people who just want advice or support from me.

Oh it's more than a feeling, friend, you're an absolute boon for them. You're the equivalent of a hot virgin woman to vampires.

Friend, you need to learn about healthy limits and how to have your own.

You will enjoy Richard Grannon's videos and might even feel like he is very familiar to you in what he says and maybe even in how he says it.

I know I did, and it was fucking uncanny. I'd very much like to know if your reaction is comparable.

YouTube: "people-pleaser, Richard Grannon", that should give some interesting videos.

>>35720373
>So you don't believe geometry exists?

In the physical world, no. Only in our minds.

>Would you contend that there exists no two points in real space such that all points between them form a straight line?

Indeed I would. What we know of space and time shows nothing is "straight" at all, and nothing is continuous. 96% of the known universe is made of something we know nothing of. We're mostly space and vibrations. Geometry is basically ideas, and ideas only exist in a consciousness.

There are no straight lines out there. Any inspection will invariably show you it's not straight, not a triangle, etc. Even the points of your examples are imagined, in our minds, rather than empirically real.

>>35720489
This was obviously my post.

Anyway, spreading negativity regarding friends and family is important too. Because again, the more isolation the more power I am able to take. With the mother/ daughter example I would have ample material because she already has a damaged relationship. Thus I could force them apart and I would know, and the mother would know, and that would make it much more enjoyable.

>>35720379
>I don't know. I was always very emphatic towards innocent beings like animals and children. I feel nothing when I think about one adult killing/harming another, but thinking of a child being abused makes me really angry, but I suppose that's normal.

I supposed that was normal too, then I realised I most likely had been molested.

Holy shit... The list of traumas is off the charts in there!

There's way enough to warrant going to therapy, anon, even if you don't take in account the likely abuse you experienced but can't remember.

Damn...

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>>35720548
you're just describing fractals. (geometry which is infinitely complex)

!!!!

>>35720395
>I gotta say, the "signs in childhood" part of the emotional abuse segment fits my current and past life perfectly. It's almost scary how accurate it is.

I know that feel. That's how I found out. I thought, "I have all the damn symptoms but none of the causes, what the fuck?"

Then I realised I actually had the causes, but didn't think I had. Also found out what my parents really are.

All in a few weeks.

>Well, what do you think I should do?

Therapy. Read about narcissism, borderline, abuse. You'll connect more dots.

>>35720418
>then our reality exists as fractal geometry.

No, because in fractal geometry, which I love, the rules remain the same, whereas in our reality, we're barely able to make sense of the quantum level, and who knows what lies beyond.

>, if its a simulation than I believe we'll eventually find a 'pixel' or 'bit' of reality itself

What about a simulation that keeps adding layers as you discover them?

>If we don't live in a simulation then yes you can always zoom and theres more, its infinite geometry.

Who knows? Our universe is finite, it may not be possible for reality to be infinitely small.

Interesting stuff.

>>35720461
>This is gonna be gay as fuck but I hate myself for being sexually attracted to this guy who is about 10 years older than me because he's hitting on me. Why the fuck am I like this?

Read about attachment theory. Possibly, the blueprint in your mind makes you think this guy is the target, and maybe you were made to love someone like this in your childhood. Is he like your father in any way?

>>35720489
>That's the only way I can really trust someone:

So you can't trust anyone, basically.

>when I know that they stand to lose more by acting against my interests since to self-destruct would be irrational.

That's where you guys fail to understand people like me. I've been threatened at a point where I no longer gave a fuck about breathing.

Do you too feel like most of what you do is really justice? Justice, reciprocity and self defense?

>>35720548
We're constrained by the limitations and imprecision of our measuring equipment. Beyond the physical structure suspended in the geometry of space being greater than infinitesimal, there's no logical reason why you could not describe a line with whatever degree of specificity you choose to pursue.

>>35720600
>Holy shit... The list of traumas is off the charts in there! There's way enough to warrant going to therapy
Okay, thank for confirming that.
I have one last question regarding this. What do I say when making a first appointment for therapy? And what should I say first when the question comes up why I'm there?

>>35720490
Wow, thank you so much!
My parents weren't really proper narcs, they're functional alcoholics who never gave me much structure. I do remember them laughing at me if I tried to explain difficult feelings, or cried in front of them. I can't stand crying in front of people now, not even intimate partners.

And yeah, I'm very empathetic and try to understand people's points of views and mindsets before I judge them or react to something (I'm impulsive and have gotten in trouble a lot in the past for being too reactive).

It's funny that you mention vampires. I like to make characters and one of them is literally an emotion vampire who drains you of all your positive energy. Based on my ex!

I've just watched the first 5 minutes of that video, HOOOOly shit you're right. Thank you for telling me about that guy! Really explains why I enjoy talking into the void on 4chan when most people here would consider me a normie too.

>>35720636
Right. I'll do that. Goodnight, Anon.

And bless you, you're doing God's work.

>>35720489
>I show a little vulnerability, a little trust. I give some information about myself, or partial info, or a complete lie. They become invested in this story and in my trust in them. Then, I will introduce contradictions so that gradually the truth will become less important than the now-fluid story they have to believe. If it gets to that stage they can't trust their own recollection or themselves at all. Only what I say at a given moment has meaning.

This is so messed up. But it matches my experience.

>X showed trust and vulnerability
>personal info on painful past
>made me so emotional I literally had tears in my eyes
>X stared intently at me the whole time, I now wonder what the exact reason was
>apparent contradictions appeared; versions seem to differ in some parameters, I let it slide assuming I remembered wrong

Dude, do you mean to tell me this is done by design? Would you, on purpose, tell me that something happened a year ago, at some point, and later on that it only happened 6 months ago?

>>35720776
>We're constrained by the limitations and imprecision of our measuring equipment

No. Make a triangle out of anything, and it'll be made out of atoms, and those things don't make for a perfect triangle. It doesn't matter whether we can measure them or not: we know there are no straight lines empirically. There'll always be holes everywhere and etc.

>there's no logical reason why you could not describe a line with whatever degree of specificity you choose to pursue.

The description would match an idea in your head, not a fact in the empirical world. That's my main point. Lines only exist in your mind.

>>35720783
>What do I say when making a first appointment for therapy? And what should I say first when the question comes up why I'm there?

This may differ every time, but when I called for mine, I was asked, roughly, what the issue was. I said anxiety and depression, even though I'm now discussing child abuse, borderliners, narcs, etc.

You can mention you suspect having CPTSD and definitely had child abuse, etc. Don't worry about it.

>>35720806
>My parents weren't really proper narcs
>I do remember them laughing at me if I tried to explain difficult feelings, or cried in front of them

Friend, your parents were absolute narcs if they did this. No normal parent does this shit, holy fuck. You're under the spell still, like I was, but it'll go away as you learn. You won't be able to see your parents the same ever again, and you will see them for real. Prepare for it.

> I like to make characters and one of them is literally an emotion vampire who drains you of all your positive energy. Based on my ex!

Funny you should fall in love with people who are like your parents. Not funny at all, and I speak from experience.

>I've just watched the first 5 minutes of that video, HOOOOly shit you're right. Thank you for telling me about that guy! Really explains why I enjoy talking into the void on 4chan when most people here would consider me a normie too.

I'm glad! I was curious as to whether things would really work out this logically. You and I would probably feel like brothers if we spent any time together.

>>35720816

Good night and thank you, Neb.

>>35720700
In some ways but in general he is nothing like my father, and mine has always been awesome and supportive so I don't think I have daddy issues. Maybe I'm just getting off on the idea that someone wants to do lewd shit with me for the first time since I became single

>>35720744
That's what I'm saying: there's always a risk that someone is too brave, too far gone or has been pushed too far. At that point, you need something else. I.e someone else they wouldn't want hurt.

It's true though, essentially I can't trust anyone.

Preparation is self-defence, and most of what I do is prepare. I rarely ever set my diabolical schemes into action. There is nothing wrong with preparing. If the rest of the world doesn't fuck with me, I don't have a reason to fuck with them. I'm just poised to do so.

>>35720827
In all likelihood it was done exactly by design. However, it was probably on some level sincere. He or she may well have wanted to connect with you emotionally. What they told you may have been true, partially true or untrue. I can't speak for everyone but I can invest in and feel a story as I relay it just as much as something that happened at times. Sometimes I want to offload but I've just got so bored of recounting my own life that I make up something else more interesting. I ring up helplines and just tell lies for up to an hour.

>>35721012
>Maybe I'm just getting off on the idea that someone wants to do lewd shit with me for the first time since I became single

Could be. If you're not used to being shown love and interest, this may be enough to sway you.

Be careful, however. Feeling valued is not the same as being loved for real. And it may be hard to distinguish.

>>35720872
No, spatial objects exist. My whole point was that atoms are not infinitesimally small but their positions, size, etc can be represented to whatever degree of specificity in principle. Ive just had sn outburts im still shaking ftom

>>35721022
Me again. I don't know why, but my name keeps needing to be re-entered.

>>35721022
>I.e someone else they wouldn't want hurt.

This is fucked up. But yeah, matches.

>It's true though, essentially I can't trust anyone.

Do you realise that because of this, YOU cannot be trusted? If I know you'll fuck me over the moment you feel threatened, I'm forced to defend myself as well.

>Preparation is self-defence, and most of what I do is prepare.

Interesting. You may not realise it, but this preparation may influence other people's behaviour.

>>35721028
Spatial objects as relationships between positions. These are not mere ideas. The ideas derive from the regularity of space, however incomprehensible or unintuitive the real geometrical substrate is (non-Euclidean for example)

>>35721022
>I ring up helplines and just tell lies for up to an hour.

One thing I've noticed about X was that the things X said, often, were pure projections: supposedly it was about me, but it really was about X. It seemed as though X told me all I needed to know before I needed it, and when everything went to hell, I only had to remember.

What I'm trying to say is that a line like this, from X, could mean, "I'm lying to you right now."

I too believe the connection was sincere on some level, I'm just not sure what the fuck X wanted or was trying to do.

>>35721028
>can be represented to whatever degree of specificity in principle.

Then move down a notch and then you can't do any of that anymore.

>Ive just had sn outburts im still shaking ftom

What happened? Tell!

>>35721088

Relationships are ideas only. Positions are only ideas too. They're relative, and this requires a mind to think. Geometry is only ideas.

The ancient Greek thought nothing else of it, and they were right. It's pure idealism. Much as Plato describes it.

http://pdfmyurl.com/

I use this to save threads, if anyone wants to save stuff, this is a good resource.

>>35720693
>No, because in fractal geometry, which I love, the rules remain the same, whereas in our reality, we're barely able to make sense of the quantum level, and who knows what lies beyond.
Correct. Being unable to make sense of it doesn't mean it doesn't follow fixed predictable rules. Just that those rules might take place at 1/000000000000000000000000000 of the plank length, they're still predictable mathematical rules. I've thought about this a lot, and I realized you can't worry about the world as we know it. I came to these conclusions by thinking of how anything at all can possibly exist, even a single particle. Eventually concluded that a true 'base particle' would have to be a singular bit...a 1 or 0. But you can also have 01 and 10 and 11 and 00...and if you can have that then you could also have 000, 001, 101, 110, etc. So *all reality* or the true UNIverse would consist of every possible combination of information, which is effectively an infinite amount of individual universes where different physics sets play out. In this universe complex intelligence emerged after some time.

>What about a simulation that keeps adding layers as you discover them?
Thats where you run into descartes 'think therefore I am' deal...theres always some way you can be tricked into viewing your current situation a certain way. If we are in base reality, we'll almost certainly never be able to prove it.

>Who knows? Our universe is finite, it may not be possible for reality to be infinitely small.
Neither of us knows if the universe is finite. As far as its 'diameter' I guess if the observable universe is probably finite in current size.

>Interesting stuff.
yea. I'd suggest checking out these series:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv9bwNnK3zI&list=PLelIK3uylPMGj__g3PeO9yg1QTCiKhwgF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0gDLEHbYCk&list=PLelIK3uylPMHTEZ0hEx3PshdSx6awKmxa

>>35721136
My family member almost let my dog get killef and touch my hand and my headphones. I had it outside. People must hace seen me punch i ng the ground and pulling my hair nd rollin around. I feel paralyzed because i dont remember where exactly he touched

>>35721072
Well of course. I can't trust others, they can't trust me and round and round it goes. Therefore the best thing to do is to make myself appear trustworthy. That's a big part of the dynamic.

>>35721115
It might not be important what was said; just whether there was acceptance of it and a willingness to indulge the narrative. Maybe he wanted you to believe it, or maybe just to go along with it even though you both knew it was a lie. Maybe he wanted you to question it so that he could undermine your confidence sufficiently that you wouldn't feel capable of arguing in future. I say he, because you haven't specified but it doesn't matter much. I'm imagining Tuco from Breaking Bad because you said before he was a monster with poor English.

>>35721231
>Neither of us knows if the universe is finite.

If we mean that it has a "limit", then yes, it is finite. Our current model if it doesn't support an inifinite universe. Big Bang and all.

>As far as its 'diameter' I guess if the observable universe is probably finite in current size.


Yes, and not probably: it is finite. Infinity can only exist postentially in an empirical world, by definition. It cannot exist in actuality.

>>35720973
Haha. I'm glad I'm easy to unravel. I was considering going to some kind of therapy but didn't feel like it was justified, but I might now. I always think that because I wasn't molested or beaten up as a kid I should be happy with how well-adjusted I am - I learned a lot about how to act like a normal person at temp jobs. ... I guess I would do well in customer service if I'm a people-pleaser.

I hope you're doing alright too - seems like you've worked through a lot of the problems people have here yourself. I really needed this, thank you.

>>35721232

Damn... I really hope you get to a therapist soon. You need help, and I'm not saying that in a negative way, you really need and deserve help.

>>35721308
It makes me even angrier because I really like this topic and he's interrupted it and my entire night by his fuckin negligence

>>35721244
>Therefore the best thing to do is to make myself appear trustworthy. That's a big part of the dynamic.

You know, the ironic thing with me is that, if I wanted, I could manipulate the shit out of everyone, because people REALLY trust me. My ability to be trusted and appear trustworthy (appear, because I actually am), comes with the fact that I can't actually manipulate people to my own interest. I'd feel terrible from it and would eventually admit what I did.

In a way, I guess it's good that those two things go together: in-built foolproof way to make sure no manipulator can be too good.

>>35721244
>I'm imagining Tuco from Breaking Bad because you said before he was a monster with poor English.

Far from it. I kekked a bit.

I don't recall mentioning X was a monster with poor English, but maybe you're gaslighting my ass.

>>35721308
I have to go wash my hands/arms and figure out if I can still use my headphones now before I continue. If you're gone by then, goodbye and I'd like to continue tomorrow om this same subject

>>35721285

I'm glad. I come here almost every night for people like you, like me.

Keep watching Grannon, he is fun and there's a lot to learn for people like us, like him.

Facet,

I remember the English comment, but I said it slightly differently. I don't live in an English-speaking country. As to being a monster, if X is one, it's on the inside.

I still have a hard time figuring whether X believes its rationale or not. It seems so irrational and crazy, but there's some inner logic, I just wonder if it's not bullshit through and through, and if so, what the intention is.

File: goodbye-i-will-always-love-you.png (495KB, 600x700px) Image search: [Google]

495KB, 600x700px

>>35721387

I'm sorry this happened. I hope you will find a way to make it so that you don't need the ritual anymore, but that is for much later I suppose.

We can certainly continue on this topic tomorrow or whenever I am on next.

I must sleep now, it's 1 am here.

Take care everyone!

And as usual, [email protected] if you have more to say or ask.

>>35721283
By that same logic, theres nothing to cause anything to exist in the first place (or to even cause 'cause and effect' to be a thing) so nothing can exist.

I think...maybe I'm not understanding what you mean when you say the universe is finite. If any dimension of it at all is infinite then doesn't that make the universe infinite?

Also physics models are a fucking joke. The point of that shit is it fucking works, you can use it to calculate shit and it works because its a pretty good model, but its a model.

How can something finite exist and nothing else at all?
or rather...How can only some stuff exist?

If X (where X is our universe) can pop out of nothing, then why not Y (another universe)? This expands to infinity.

>>35721383
>maybe you're gaslighting my ass
I'm actually not, but you also can't trust me. And that's the game.
At one point I was convinced someone was gaslighting me. I was really sure. They swore they weren't. I still don't know. It was quite a mess I suppose. I have a very poor memory because of medication, so she might have been totally innocent. I do feel as though that's a shame.

There's the hint of vulnerability for you: aside from powerlessness, the thing I fear most is senility. My memory is poor because of meds, and at times it seems severe. I am genuinely worried that it will become increasingly extreme as I age. It bothers me when I misremember things for this reason.

But there's a level of self-defence in there too: I've already undermined the veracity of what I say, so it may not be true at all. Thus, it's safe to be honest if only a little.

You might get a laugh out of this: my favourite fictional character is Captain America. I really look up to someone like that. Always makes the right choice, pure and true, no sense of guile. Ah well. I'm sorry Steve.

>>35721562
Hey, Facet. Would you be willing to answer a few questions of mine?

>>35721673
Sure, why not. I'll be around an hour or so yet. What's up?

>>35721716
I haven't followed much of your convo with Nick itt, but you mentioned BPD earlier I believe. Could you give a short description of your affliction just so I'm up to speed? You seem to spend a lot of cognitive energy on interpersonal ideation, which I don't find particularly compelling to read when it doesn't involve me.

>meta interviews facet
>shit gon be gud

Nick here. Reading from bed and phone. Won't type or respond but know I'll be reading until I fall asleep.

>>35721813
There's a lot of ground to cover. At a glance:
>Manipulative behaviour
>Damaging behaviour to self and others
>Chronic splitting
>Extreme despair that only lasts 3 hours - 3 days and leaves as quickly as it arrived with no reason for either
>Paranoia
>Psychosis
>Emotional volatility and aggression
>Easily bored, thrill-seeking behaviour
>In direct contradiction, quickly becoming severely anxious over tiny things
>Intense, turbulent interpersonal relationships
>Promiscuity
>Compulsive lying

There's more but that's just off the top of my head

>>35722001
>Extreme despair that only lasts 3 hours - 3 days and leaves as quickly as it arrived with no reason for either
Fuck I have this. Is there a name for it?

>>35722001
Walking and typing on my phone, so strap in, things could get bumpy. Hmm, that's quite hefty burden, I imagine. Pardon me if my questions don't seem psychologically oriented, but I have an interest in how aberrant personalities view basic human constructs, like morality. Perhaps it's best to start with an hypothetical rather than as you to expound on your view from a vague prompt. You manipulate people, correct? What if you had the power of complete mind control? How would you put it to use? Simply to dispose of threats to your personal safety?

>>35722097
Transient dysphoria? I don't know.

>>35722142

Another 'symptom' is that I have a fairly flexible sense of self. I can be essentially unrecognisable over the course of a year or two. Even between different groups or individuals I can be markedly distinct to the point that it would be jarring if they ever met in my presence.

>>35722142
Put it this way, if I had that power I would likely be more or less exactly the same as the Purple Man from Jessica Jones, although I'd take more martial arts classes and get more free gym type and personal training. In that respect I'm probably quite boring. Like him as well though, I'd want to do 'heroic' things from time to time, albeit probably for the wrong reasons.

>>35722246
I'm afraid I'm woefully inadequate to the task of interpreting pop-culture references, so I'll have to request that you be more explicit if that's possible.

>>35722246
Another question; if you possessed the capability of sculpting your own mind to suit your desires, what would the end result of that process look like? Which, ahem, Facets of your psyche would you alter first?

I have a girlfriend who I love a lot and don't want to leave
But I also have this other girl who I'm seeing who just is better in the looks department
I kinda feel bad about it but I've also rationalised it a lot in my mind
Am I an asshole?

>>35722246
>flexible sense of self
Presumably, this is.why you mentioned DID? Do you experience a lapse in memory between your different "selves?"

>>35722318
Essentially, he goes around wandering into places and just taking what he wants.
>Yes, I'll have your best room, I won't be paying. You're coming with me, In fact, you two start having sex. You, I want you to stab her to death. Well, smile for me will you? Good now tell me you love me. Bored now, push that pencil through your eye please.

That's the kind of thing he does, but I don't imagine I'd be that far away. He's essentially able to act without consequence and make people do whatever he wants. He grows frustrated because it's artificial. He can tell someone to smile or to make someone say how attractive he is but really they're just hypnotised. It's not genuine.

>>35722351
The first thought is that I'd want to iron out any weaknesses or vulnerabilities. No more fear, nor hesitation. I would also want to act morally. To always do the right thing. Like a beacon. To be a hero.

>>35722437
I wasn't referring to DID - my basic 'self' is malleable. My facets, as I refer to them, also develop and grow in their own ways. I do experience memory loss, partial or incomplete, when I switch out. That usually happens in response to certain triggers, stress or drugs.

>>35722438
What could be impelling you to want to act more morally? That doesn't seem to make sense to me. A desire to be moral strikes me as difficult to distinguish from the type of aspiration we would designate as "morality"

>>35722482
Develop, from interactions with the world, in ways completely contrary to each other? How radically different are they from one another/your base self?

>>35722438
Which weaknesses? All of them? Do you desire omnipotence? What types of behaviors do you view as weak in yourself and others? Do you hold differing standards for those two groups?

>>35722500
A person with great strength who protects the weak and crushes evil - who makes the world a better place - is something I aspire toward. I do not think I am capable of it however, because my moral compass seems to be so off-base. Throughout my conversations with Nick he's been staggered by the apparently amoral things I've said. On this basis alone, I am not suitable to be a hero.

I'll give you an example that feels appropriate but I'm not sure why. My little brother, for some reason, asked me to break one of his toys. I asked him if he was sure, and he said yes. I nonchalantly smashed it to pieces, and then didn't understand why he or my parents were upset. Moral autism perhaps.

>>35722553
I'd say that varies. Some more than others. One is deeply religious, a little paternal. Another is female and more histrionic and clingy. Both of these are completely at odds with me about specific subjects. In the first case, religion and in the second, reliance on/ trust in others just for the easy examples.

>>35722602
I would like omnipotence. Total control. If I could be a god, I would. But the biggest weakness is fear. If I could eliminate fear from myself I think I would accomplish great and perhaps terrible things. Beyond that, I would like more discipline. I'm quite disciplined but it misfires. For example, down the gym I will push my body beyond its limits and be laid up for a day or two. To me, mind over body is strength. Of course, that's nonsense when it makes you weaker. The idea that a person has limits beyond strength of will and toleration of suffering is difficult for me to accept.

>>35722687
I identify with the last thing you said, only for a different characteristic. I'm concerned not with strength, but intelligence. I find it incredibly difficult to accept my own intellectual limitations, to the point of it having evaporated whatever zeal and motivation to strive I might have had. Responding to the rest...

>>35722687
How would you define evil? I've come to realize people have wildly varying ideas about good and evil. So could you adumbrate for me your ideas concerning both the good and evil courses of action? Is there a specific moral philosophy you adhere to?

>>35722687
If you attained ultimate power, would it ever occur to you dissolve the boundaries between yourself and others and simple unify existence into a glob of almighty You/Theyness? Or would not having something to dominate frighten you?

>>35722850
If I had to pick, I find that Nietzsche appeals to me - although I don't know that I find his system 'moral'. You might consider it overly simplistic but I tend to think of utilitarianism to be the most moral. John Stuart Mill. It seems direct, transparent and mostly unequivocal. There's always a right answer. The goal of morality then, should be to make the world better. To minimise harm and to maximise happiness. Then there's the question of greater harm and lesser happiness i.e. 100 rapists, one victim. Instinctively I do feel that that is wrong, but I'm not totally sure that the 'units' of happiness and suffering can be seen to be negative. Perhaps certain actions cause deeper harm to all involved and down the line that harm will manifest after the fact.

>>35722890
I experienced temporary ego death on acid, and it was very beautiful. I do tend to believe that all things are part of some great whole of varying densities and that after death all things are broken down and redistributed. We all die and cease to be, but our components are recycled. That seems fine to me. Somewhere at the core of that, I believe that there is benevolence but not an identity.

>>35722983
Incidentally, negative utilitarianism is my own view.
I'm curious what, if anything other than psychedelics, has led you to believe in a benevolence at the center of things.

>>35723069
Perhaps I can't explain it beyond that. I believe that the purest form of energy, from which all other things are refined, is something like what we would call love. However, I believe that this world and people including myself contain very little of that spark. I'm not sure I can feel love at all.

>>35723134
I can't conceive of love as anything other than a temporal/spatial pattern situation in a "physical" substrate or a description of the behavior thereof.

>>35723232
*situated
I can't see how anything could be "pure" or irreducible. I guess I'm a radical infinitist/deconstructionist. But at the same time, I suspect there may be contradictions in the concept of infinity. Or maybe even at the heart of reality itself.

>>35723232
It's been fun talking but I'm afraid it's long past bedtime for me. We can pick this up another time.

>>35723134
It actually seems impossible to me to say that something could be pure love. What is love but the coordinated activity of its components? How can it be anything without a substructure?

>>35723306
Ok, I also enjoyed this. I admit I've been prattling on at such length to avoid facing my immediate circumstances.

>>35723340
I need to go, but love is an approximation. It would be like using the colour white to describe light. It's completely inadequate but it's the best I can do.

Anyway, good luck with your circumstances.

>>35723427
Peace and love (whatever they are), Facet.