>free will and choice exist What did they mean by this? Every

>>35300932
You're assuming there's actually a world around you.

>>35300942
Fuck you, stop trying to outmeme me.
I legitimately want someone to convince me otherwise and that people are capable of chosing.

"Our futures are predestined. Moebius foretold mine a millennium ago. We each play out the parts fate has written for us. We are compelled ineluctably down pre-ordained paths. Free will is an illusion."
-Kain to Raziel

are we considering a triple-O deity that is invested in human affairs? that complicates free will a bit

Free will's a myth. Religion's a joke.

>>35300962
This cannot possibly be proven or tested

>>35300952
You know there's no way that makes sense. Just like when a ball falls to the ground after you let go of it due to the laws of nature, the workings of your brain do not magically disobey the same laws.

>>35300976
are talking about organized religion or actual, true religious belief? as in what you get when you actually read the gospel and thing about what jebus is saying

>>35300952
Its more likely that we, or you singularly exist in a simulation. Quantum physics gives hints that the 3d nature of the universe is an illusion. The lack of detectible life in the universe is statistically improbable. Don't let it get you down though, even though the universe isn't real you just pretend it is and keep going and everything is fine.

>>35301041
that's true this universe is probably a hologram determined by q-bits. fucking crazy. if someone understands it better i'd love to know more

This is why I don't understand the meme that people are to take responsibility for their lives and actions. I'm aware that it's an effective belief to hold, but it's completely untrue.

>>35300992
it can if you go see moebius in the past and have him take you to the time streaming chamber and you look through those portal thingies.

>>35301089
While we don't think through our actions beforehand, we can reprogram ourselves to some degree to react differently. We are not truly biochemical machines so much as programmed response.

>>35300932
Idk, you still have to evaluate all that info you have in your mind from knowledge and past experiences, and your decision can be different based on your feeling at the time, and what outcomes you want at the time. Free will might exist solely as emotion.

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>>35300932
do you really think hitler needed to holocaust 6 million jews?

free will exists, you just want to avoid responsibility for your actions

>>35301179
Not An Argument(tm)

What's even more weird is that we feel like we have free will by discussing that we do.
This is so fucked up

>>35301179
the world influenced him to hate jews

>>35300932
All current scientific evidence points in the direction that the universe is not deterministic.

This also implicates the existence of free will.

Our emotions sort of act as a free-will catalyst, since our choices can be radically different based on how we feel. Plus we sometimes just choose a decision randomly , which is pretty much free-will.

>>35301847
emotions are affected by the outside world.
"Random" decisions are often subconsciously programmed as well

>>35300995
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TDC9s-Kt-8

>>35301847
>random
No. Your genes, which are used to develop your brain, are also in the scope of worlds influence.

>>35301865
Emotions are affected by all sorts of things, like what you eat, how much sleep you get, what your senses are currently experiencing, your past experiences and knowledge, etc. And as for random you could literally just roll some die, flip a coin, or use a random number generator if you wanted it to be more "genuinely" random. I personally don't get the whole obsession some people have with free-will though. Even if your decisions are based off of subconscious processes and the emotion you're feeling, what does it really matter?

>>35301936
>I personally don't get the whole obsession some people have with free-will though.
Because it literally means no one is accountable for anything.

All moments, past, present, and future, always have existed, always will exist... It's just an illusion here on Earth that one moment follows another one, like beads on a string, and that once that moment is gone it is gone forever.

Why you? Why us for that matter? Why anything? Because this moment simply is. Have you ever seen bugs trapped in amber? Well, here we are, trapped in the amber of this moment. There is no why.

All time is all time. It does not change. It does not lend itself to warnings or explanations. It simply is. Take it moment by moment, and you will find that we are all, as I've said before, bugs in amber.

Everything is nothing, but with a twist.

>>35302011
But accountability is just an arbitrary moral concept that doesn't require a person to have free-will or not. For example, if someone goes on a killing rampage, we wouldn't not kill them because they aren't accountable for their actions, we kill them because we have to. Whether people are accountable or not changes nothing, so deliberating free-will doesn't have any implications aside from a lone person who thinks that it should.

>>35302011
Society with free will: Thieves go to jail.
Society without free will: Thieves go to jail.

It doesn't change anything.

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>>35300942
FPBP

get fucked OP, let me out of this simulation

>>35301179
yeah, he just suddenly wanted to exterminate them, not like there's a long history of anti-semitism in europe and germany in particular. nope.

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>>35300932
The universe is super orderly, despite what moral relativist cucks want you to think.

If you knew enough about its nature, you could precisely predict every single thing that will ever happen, just like a physicist can predict where a ball will land after you throw it and be right.

Free will is 100% an illusion, you're a small piece in a mechanism that is so much larger than yourself that you literally can't fathom it.

>>35301179
Idiot. The fact that free will doesn't exist doesn't mean that everyone gets a free pass to do whatever the fuck they want.

>>35302729
>If you knew enough about its nature, you could precisely predict every single thing that will ever happen
false, microscopics particles deal in probabilities
free will is still an illusion though

>>35300932
>choice is just a reaction to the environment
Why do people think that cancels out choice?

I'm well aware I have choice because of how often I fuck up when I knew the right course of action all along.
People who argue against free will just want to absolve themselves of responsibility.

>>35302762
>false, microscopics particles deal in probabilities
They appear to, yes, but I guarantee someone will figure out how to perfectly predict them eventually. If the base units of the universe were truly chaos, then nothing would have form or predictability.

>>35302796
You couldn't have done anything differently. Whether you knew you were doing the "wrong" thing or not, your past self in that moment did what it did because that's what your whole life up to that point led to.

>>35302827
Yet, here we are, with a clear choice to believe in or disregard the idea of free will.

>>35302848
and you will always make the same choice at any one point in your life because of the knowledge and life experience leading upto it.

>>35302848
You will believe in free will or not based on how your brain developed.
You believe it because it coincides with your current thoughts, which your live up to this point has shaped. If you disregard it, it's because I influenced you.

>>35302827
I posted in this thread, rather than the last one. Nothing stopping me doing or not doing that.

It would be better to question the impact of our choices, rather than whether our choice exists. Very little of what we do actually matters or makes much of a difference.

>>35302904
>>35302911
It's a paradox if I choose to believe in it.

>>35302925
if you somehow time travelled 30 minutes into the past and took your past-selves place and the last 30 minutes of your memory was expunged, you'd still be posting here. i think that's what he's trying to say.

But, studies have shown that you would be better off believing in free will. Read up, senpai.

>>35300932
The free will/determinism is a stupid argument.

The world is obviously deterministic, and regardless of that fact, you still have to live as if it were indeterminate (in other words, it is effectively indeterminate).

Everyone that picks a "side" in these arguments are literally retarded.

>Every "choice" you make is the result of your interaction with the world up to that point.
Not an argument, senpai. I am the ultimate master of choice and I decide how to process and respond to the outside information

>>35302970
This.

We should look at how useful and applicable an idea is too. Understanding that people are just products of cause and effect can certainly be useful, though. It prevents less helpful thinking like "The poor should just take responsibility and change their lives." Though this statement isn't wrong, it doesn't effectively solve a problem or offer resolution. Instead of dismissing the problem, one can instead take a more objective approach to solving it. This applies to more situations than just this, obviously.

I am probably communicating this poorly, I just wanted to point out how seeing the world as deterministic can be useful.

>>35301760
No it doesn't. A chaotic universe doesn't imply free will.

>>35302125
>we have to
The fuck is that even supposed to mean? We don't have to kill anyone.