If free will is real. Why do people say depression is caused

>>35145065
Stop spreading logic anon, are you crazy ?

Read more than a couple of wikipedia pages before attempting to come up with "profound" insights. Okay darling?

>>35145065
Free will isn't real, and recognizing that changes absolutely nothing. It's just meme philosophy.

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>>35145065
Depression is a meme built to make you take the medical Jew senpai

>>35145383

Yeah and the scans which show the marekdly different function of depressed brains versus normative ones is totally made up by the joos as well.

Jesus christ you lot are retarded.

>>35145065
If gravity is real how come a stone and a feather fall at different speeds if they are not in a vacuum?

>>35145418
Air pressure

>>35145065
Everyone is limited by their bodies. This isn't a new revelation.
Mental illness has affected people's thought process for a long time. You still have the free will however to be a whiny bitch about it or become a mass shooter

>>35145413

When people get diagnosed with depression they don't have their brains scanned though.

>>35145413
>Yeah and the scans which show the marekdly different function of depressed brains versus normative ones is totally made up by the joos as well.
This has been proven to be inherently true. Stay mad

>free will is real
>therefore cause and effect doesn't exist
sound logic to me friendo

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>>35145383
Speaking of memes and depression, anyone else noticing an increase in the uptick of /r9k/ tier depression memes among normies?

Even they can't contain their sadness levels, anymore.

>>35145458

So the decision to become a mass shooter has nothing to do with your brain chemistry? So if it doesn't come from the brain where does it come from?

>>35145065
hmmm this is kind of interesting
how can there be free will if every thought is caused by a tiny component of our brain? wouldn't each thought or idea belong to the neuron that fired it?

>>35145523

>how can there be free will if every thought is caused by a tiny component of our brain? wouldn't each thought or idea belong to the neuron that fired it?

You're not supposed to think about that. You're supposed to believe free will comes from some magical "soul" each one of us has that transcends our physical brains.

>>35145478
I didn't say the impulse had nothing to do with it. Just that whether they act out on violent impulses is up to them, especially when it's caused by depression. We are limited by our mental illness/brains. I wasn't suggesting otherwise.

>>35145523

Pretty much, yes. The universe is causal and so virtually every single thing that happens is as a result of natural phenomenon governed by the laws of physics. The exact thought you have is a result of the physical structure of your brain, including the chemicals that alter receptor activity and the neuronal connections.

>inb4 "muh quantums"

It doesn't give you any ability to make choices about the physics of the world, dumbass faggots, so it doesn't give you free will.

>>35145065
>Are you saying that our brain chemistry influences how we act?
Not only chemistry, but symbols can cause a subconscious reaction that bubbles into consciousness in some way.
Symbols can alter how you think. Isn't that wild? You can choose which symbols you surround yourself with.
For the most part, you get to choose your chemicals, too. Uppers, downers, or just "something to even you out." As long as you're doing it for a good reason, you should be fine.
Do your research and decide what you want.

Literally every 'free will' debate comes down to a failure to agree upon definitions for the core terms and goes on forever.
'Free will' debates of the past were usually theologically tinged.

The reality is that according to the best of our knowledge, yes everything we do is predetermined, however when we use terms like "you" and "I", these terms generally are there for much less precise reference to persons and bodies, not to consciousness (we don't even know what consciousness is).

So if 'John' decides to eat an apple rather than a banana, we simply say "John decided to eat the apple", because it would make no sense to say "Mary decided to eat the apple" with reference to what John just did, nor would it make sense to say "I decided to eat the apple" with reference to what John just did. This type of language is to describe general acts at a certain level, and isn't meant to describe consciousness or mental processes generally. The "decided" is something we attribute to 'John' as a whole, because that's how it's experience - the locus of control is within the body 'John'. Even most people would recognise that this general language doesn't imply that the CONSCIOUSNESS of John make the choice, but a series of mental and psychological phenomena that obviously have order and logic about them and are ultimately pre-determined.

Any choice I make, I was always going to make, but mentally I experience a sensation of choice much of the time, probably because the mental 'subroutines' involved in decision making come to conscious awareness at key points and I become 'involved' with them on a conscious level.

>>35145065
Though freewill doesn't scientifically exist it's important to operate as though it does on a practical level due to the human minds complexity, the amount of factors you have to account for is absolutely insane and unless you can come up with any real usefulness of this fact it will serve as nothing more than an interesting philosophical point.

Why do you separate 'will' from the 'physical'?
The chemicals in my brain are part of me.

I don't believe in free will in the first place

>>35145065
Free will is a human concept devised before the true advent of biochemistry and neuroscience. In truth, you ARE your brain chemistry, and nothing more, so "you" technically make decisions. The problem is, we can't agree on what "you" is because of nebulous theological/philosophical preconceptions about our "souls."

>>35145735
>nothing more
You're also the symbols informed into that chemistry. A pile of rocks containing the elements of a person and the person himself are very different.

It's important that your worldview isn't just philosophically and scientifically reasonable, but also predictive. You can have a deterministic worldview, but you can't predict what will happen to you with our current level of scientific understanding.

>>35145615
If I gave you $20 would you explain physics to me

>>35145463

Even if this were true there are innumerably functional differences in depressed brains.

I'm sure you know more than neuroscientists, though. KYS, idiot.

>>35145809

R u being sarcastic m8?

>>35145840

When cancer is diagnosed we usually have X-rays, CT scans, MRI scans, PET scans, ultrasound tests, blood tests, endoscopies, and biopsies.

When depression is diagnosed we use... none of those things.

>>35145615
But surely a random quantum event could cause a few neurones to fire or instead not fire when it would do the opposite, and in the right circumstances that could change the decision someone makes, bam that's free will.

prove your neurotransmitter levels.

can't and won't ever be done.

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How can you say to someone "you have a chemical imbalance" when you've never given them any brain scans or tested any of their bodily chemicals, enzymes, fluids, or genes for any abnormalities?

>>35145365

>Free will isn't real, and recognizing that changes absolutely nothing.

Sure it does. It means you can't rely on "free will" to help you, or anyone else, ever. Realizing this can at least in some cases compel you to find other solutions to your issues than "just choose to be happy bro".

>>35145873


Wow it is almost like they are fundamentally different things and can be diagnosed on the basis of presentation of symptoms like a fucking flu, cold, throat infection, etc.

Schizophrenia, depression, bipolar, etc. all have very clear symptoms and they are easily diagnosed by a professional, even your average dumbass normie could point out someone with schizophrenia.

Juat because diagnostic psychology does not use tests like MRIs to diagnose does not mean there is no solid basis for diagnosis based on presentation of symptoms. The diseases exist and this is substantiated by varying fields of science and in various ways.

Are you a conspiratard or just dumb?

>>35145809
Energy travels as photon waves through the void of 4D spacetime. Matter happens when energy in the void begins spinning in a direction relative to the rest of the void. This is why you don't see much antimatter, because it is also antitime and travels backwards in time. The spinning of matter causes an attractive force known as gravity, and the spinning of aligned electrons causes magnetism.

>>35145947
Also, the universe is a giant multidimensional fractal.

>>35145857
No I really have no grounding for this kind of stuff, I want to learn

>>35145947
Thank you

>>35145947

That was the dumbest thing I have ever read. Go back to /x/

>>35145065
Yea, free will is bullshit. We're all masses of atoms acting in accordance to physical laws, I don't see why people doubt determinism.

Also, It's not only serotonin that's the problem. That's why SSRI's don't work on everyone. I was working out for 4 weeks daily (cardio 4x a week, liftin 3x) and my depression was still pretty bad. Lot's of drinking and raging in my room. Mood was only slightly improved. Which leads me to believe that serotonin deficiency isn't the main problem with my depression

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>>35145942

>but muh symptoms

You can call anything a symptom. Drapetomania was a disease that caused blacks to escape from slavery. It had symptoms.

Drapetomania has as much evidence supporting its existence as schizophrenia, depression, and Internet addiction disorder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drapetomania

>>35145550

>Just that whether they act out on violent impulses is up to them

"They" do not exist independently of their brain chemistry and brain chemistry can compel violent movements.

Look up dopamine (it's not "the happy chemical"--it has a role in happiness but so many other roles, including forcing movement).

Excess dopamine in the motor circuits compels violent body movements. It's why those with manic depression can lash out and hurt themselves if they get into a manic episode that is severe enough, and they cannot use "free will" to stop it.

>>35146005
You explain physics then instead of shitposting, genius.

>>35145980

Learn different kinds of math and take courses online if you can't go to college/uni. I can't really teach anything but if you have a question about something specific I'll do my best to answer.

If you want something easily digestable for learning about different things in physics the youtube channel PBS Spacetime is fantastic, they address some aspects of the math as well. Also the titanium physicists podcast is great, you can listen to them on the podbay app, just search the name of the podcast in the app.

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>>35145439
Air resistance you dumb nigger

>>35146026
What about long drawn out plans, not just impulses that are on the spot movements?

>>35145735

>In truth, you ARE your brain chemistry

Your brain chemistry changes from moment to moment, so in this case there is no "you" that isn't constantly dying and being replaced, and dying and being replaced, because it's never the same from one moment to the next.

>>35146084
Thank you for helping =,^)

>>35145901
are you retarded ? quantum physics don't work like that, ignorant swine
neurones operate at a much bigger scale than the one where quantum phenomena are really relevant

>>35146098

What plans you make are still determined by the chemicals and energy in your nervous system, which act either causally (meaning "you" can't use "free will" to subvert their machinations) or acausally (meaning they happen without being caused, meaning your "will" cannot cause or prevent them since by definition that which is acausal has no cause).

"Your" neurotransmitter levels in various parts of "your" nervous system are even going to shape what plans "you" make and what thoughts "you" think in the first place.

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>>35145947
But time doesn't exist as you describe it. Time is merely a measuring tool for change from point A to point B relative to the rest of existence. It's entirely a manmade concept and cannot be traveled forward into or backwards from and exists only as the light that bounces off something and records it. We can look backwards in time only as light against the backdrop of the endless void.

>>35145901

The quantum states of particles are probabilistic. A particle will exist in a quantum state with a superposition allowing for it to behave in various ways simultaneously (or so our best theory states, this is substantiated mathematically and seems correct) but this just means that the actual laws governing the particle are not relativistic physics alone, it still doesn't allow you to interject your own mind into natural phenomenon and choose from an array of outcomes.

For all we know you could compute the exact outcome of how an electron will behave, we certainly don't have a total understanding of quantum physics. Regardless of not being able to specifically determine the exact variables with an electron or other particle governed by quantum physics this does not allow for causality to be broken nor does it allow for you to exert your will over the world.

>>35146233
Yeah, time measures the relative spin.
I also distrust what you're saying due to you hitting one of my filters. Where did you get that image?

>>35146017

You're clearly just a fucking idiot. Enjoy living life with the understanding of a brain damaged ape.

>>35145980
to learn physics, use online courses and learn everything step by step
physics isn't some magical shit that can explain things because of people saying sentences like "do you know what a black hole is ? it is a star that collapsed on itself and in its center, there's a singularity, a point of infinite density !", it involves experiments, formulas, maths and logic
it fucking triggers me when I'm at a library and all the people are looking at books about science popularization instead of academical ones

You are just the product of electrical signals and electrical potentials due to chemicals in your brain.

That's who you are.

Your mental illness and your serotonin deficiency is also part of who you are.

>>35146277

>time measures the relative spin

What are you saying, nigga?

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>>35146294

You have yet to provide what evidence schizophrenia has that drapetomania doesn't.

>inb4 mah altered P300 and enlarged ventricles

You realize those are only found in 30% of "schizophrenics"?

>>35146393

>I-it's only in th-thirty percent a-anon. This means it doesn't real at all
You're actually retarded.

>>35146386
If time is a measuring tool for change from point A to point B, then it measures the spin of a thing relative to the rest of existence.
Something that goes backwards in time just spins the other way.

>>35146481

Where did youget this from? Because it isn't correct.

>>35146512
How does stuff go backwards in time if that's not correct? Retrocausality is not out of the realm of possibility.

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>>35146277
I don't really know what to say about triggering one of your filters, if you distrust me I can assure you it's an inherent distrust you carry and not because I'm dishonest with my words.

The picture I can't quite recall where I got it. Backwards image search it maybe?

>>35145065
FOOL THAT YOU ARE, FOR YOU TRUST THE CHEMICALS IN THE BRAIN TO TELL YOU THAT THEY ARE CHEMICALS

WILL YOU FIGHT OR WILL YOU PERISH LIKE A DOG

>>35146577

There is no such thing as retroactive causality, causality is causality. 'Spin' doesn't effect which way something moved through time.

>>35146368

But as I already said, the chemical and energy reactions in your nervous system are different from one moment to the next.

Therefore the "you" doesn't even exist to begin with except in a moment. Blink and it's gone.

>>35146648
>this brainlet that doesn't believe in retrocausality
Next you'll tell me that you're a flat-earther

>>35145413
If there's something I've learned in this place, it's never argue with conspiracy retards, it's easier to teach a vegetable to speak.

>>35145241
You're an idiot

Original

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>>35146481
>>35146577
You're assuming matter is always spinning and somehow manipulating time this way which is in direct conflict to what I just said about there being no time to be manipulated in the first place. It's entirely a man made concept to record changes in condition between two sets of intervals. The interval we call "time" but time itself does not exist, it's merely a word.

>>35146684

Causality is a single thing. Things do not happen backwards, it might be possible to move backwards through time (unlikely) but that doesn't reverse causality, that just moved you backwards relative to it.


You're the brainlet, my dude. You sound like you get this shit from spirit science AKA cult delusions for the mentally ill and biggest brainlets of all.

>>35146183
>calling me ignorant swine
>he doesn't know about the butterfly affect

>>35146269
it still doesn't allow you to interject your own mind into natural phenomenon and choose from an array of outcomes
Yes but assuming particles interacting on a quantum level do have true randomness then we couldn't exactly determine exactly how a person would react to stimuli assuming we knew every other factor from brain chemistry to what every neurone in their brain does.

I think definition is a problem in discussions like these so I'll explain how I'm currently defining free will: even if one knows every knowable factor involved in ones decision making when provided with a stimuli one can have an unpredictable reaction.

I'm still constructing this idea in my brain and I haven't slept for at least 14 hours so excuse me if I'm rambling, all these other factors are popping up in my head now.

>>35146754
wow whatever watch some pbs sometime
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/physics/retrocausality-could-send-information-back-to-the-future/
this post is brought to you by viewers like you
thank you

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>>35146233
>>35146277
>>35146577
>>35146744
What is originally going on here?

>>35146780

I thought you were referring to the pseudoscience shit not disordered events.

>>35146815
It's a mix of physics and pseudo science and it's ugly, also time exists it's just that it's relative.

>>35146815
I'm seeing how far I can get convincing people that lightbulbs are dark absorbers
and when they burn out, they're full

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>>35146780
I just read that and the entire thing is admited to be no more than blind groping in the dark theory and conjecture. That's not proof of your of hypothesizing by any stretch of the word.

>>35145065
>Have the capacity to go to the psychiatrist for a diagnosis
>To use SSRIs
>Fix up diet and exercise
>Reach out and make a friend
>Keep a journal
>Dress well and stay busy
>Ween self off of SSRIs
>Be cured of depression

If we have free will, why do we need bed rest when we get pneumonia? Why am I not free to run marathons while my lungs are filled with fluid?

>>35147056

Moreover, if we have free will, what is the point in doing anything?

>Want to be happy? Don't bother trying to improve your life; that's a waste of time. Just "choose to be happy"!

>Want your kids to turn out well? Whatever you do as a parent doesn't matter because they'll just use "free will" to turn out great or shitty. Nothing you do as a parent matters.

>You don't want to get sick? Well, just choose not to care about that. Then you'll never have to worry about getting sick again...getting sick can be like winning the lotto".

Free will is a nihilistic and irresponsible mistaken ideology.

>>35146960
Why are you so mad about quantum free energy dark absorbers?

>>35146768
>butterfly affect
>confuses affect and effect
oh yeah teach me about physics wise man

Free will exists. It's merely easier for low IQ kids on the Internet to try and argue against it rather than for it so they feel smart.

>>35147513

>not recognizing the fundamntal nature of causality in physics and hos it excludes the ability to act freely

>not looking at any published work in neurobiology and seeing how we are clearly not acting freely

Brainlet confirmed

>>35147513

If free will exists then prove it exists with a logical argument.

>>35147577
knowing that only trying to prove it proves that determinsm is more likely than free will

>>35145065
>If free will is real.
Protip: its not.
Literally nothing in science hints at it being real.

>>35147630

You're acutally the biggest brainlet in the whole thread. Even joospiracy main is less of a brainlet than you.

>>35146768
The butterfly effect doesn't mean what you think it means

>>35145461

Not scanning everyone doesnt matter if you scan a statistically significant amount with a statistically significant control group

>>35145476
How do you know normies, without beeing a normie?
>>35145241
good post
>>35146716
bad post

>>35147657
read Spinoza retard

>>35147747

>Thinking any of that shit is relevant in a world where we have evidence to determine that free will fags are BTFO of reality

BIGGEST. BRAINLET.

>>35147821
I do not believe in free will tho

>>35147654

Not only that but it's a meaningless ""idea"" to begin with. It makes no logical sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joanVUoXY0s

Once society finally gets that free will is bullshit maybe we'll move on to finding practical solutions for all issues and never again relying on bullshit like "free will" to fix things. Protip: It doesn't exist. It has never fixed anything and never will.

>>35147847

Then you're not a brainlet. Also I am only trying to agitate brainlets. If I actually see and thought out and non-moronic reply I'll stop shitposting.

>>35147968

Spinoza was about as far from a brainlet as you can get.

>>35148019
Spinoza is trash tier.

>>35147654
>science
>a legitimate method of testing information
>legitimate method of anything

LUL

>>35148019

Even for his time he was scuffed.

>>35147968
>>35148019
I talked about Spinoza only in the context of my original point, not to bring memes into this please stop

>>35145476
It's all for attention. I was talking to one of my coworkers last night and she said she was going to call in sick tomorrow because she couldn't handle it. "I'm sooo suicidal, you don't understand", she said, like it was a completely casual thing.

Also, she has a boyfriend. If you have the looks or personality to make another person find you attractive, you have no right to say you're depressed desu.