Why haven't you seized the means of production yet?

>>34621402
No one else wants to. My country is full of rednecks with their anti-communist propaganda so far up their asses that they don't know that its the way to go.

That would require talking and organizing with other people which is terrifying prospect in its own right.

>>34621454
Must be retarded. Every time a country has tried to move towards communism it becomes total shit. As examples:
>South Korea goes capitalist after the war. Becomes high income country
>Japan goes capitalist after the war. Becomes high income country
>Cuba goes communist after its revolution. Becomes a shit hole for the past half century

>>34621508
sovereignty comes at a price

>>34621533
those examples never achieved sovereignty you jackass they always become natsoc.

>>34621402
i make propaganda if that helps

because that would break the economy.

it takes balls to invest in something and make it, its not something a small minded drone can pull off

>>34621533
I think I'll take food, water, technology, money, Healthcare, housing, heating, and freedom over "sovereignty"

>>34621402
I rather build my own wealth than steal from others.

>>34621402
How about you suck my means of reproduction?

>>34621402
Because everytime I try they turn me down.

>>34621584

producing things for profit is the problem. in a moral society things would be produced to fit the public need and not for profit

>>34621637
There's nothing imoral about profit.

>tfw met some ancoms at a J20 protest
>gave them my email
>they sent one email, I replied saying I was interested, still no reply
It sucks being an anti-social socialist

>>34621508
Cuba is far less shit than Haiti or Jamaica and in quality of life being far better than most places in Latin America (excluding maybe Costa Rica) this is despite being the victim of 40+ years of aggression by the colosses of the North who has used outside of embargo, direct invasion (1961) and terrorist attacks organized from bases in Florida (attacks on commercial airliners, food production in Cuba, attacks on co-op's, attacks on shipping out of Cuba), numerous assassination attempts.

>>34621637
The only issue is unfair profits (for example monopoly profits). Fair profits are perfectly fine. If I make a shirt that costs $10 to make and you want to pay $20 for it, how is that an issue? You don't have to buy my shirt

>>34621637
whats wrong with profit

>>34621674

I think Chile and Uruguay also have higher standards of living than Cuba. Argentina might be up there except they have a serious problem with crime.

>>34621674
Only for tourists.

>>34621661
Nothing moral about it either. Profit is grey.

>>34621705
There's nothing unfair about a monopoly in a free market either.
>>34621736
Right. But forcing people to produce only what the state deems worthy is definetly imoral.
>>34621674
That's why there's 2 million cuban exiles. kek

>>34621674
Regardless, Cuba is shit. Just because other piles of shit smell worse than this one, doesn't mean it still isn't shit. If they sided with the west during the Cold War and opened up their markets, they would have become a high income country. In fact, proximity to the US would have made this even easier, as trade would have been able to flow very quickly. But no, they sided with Russia. Again though, South Korea, Germany, Japan, all sided with the US, and now Japan is the 3rd largest economy, Germany like the 5th, SK like the 10th. If they did it after being so ravaged by wars, why couldn't Cuba?

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>implying I haven't seized the memes of production

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>>34621402
I've seized the memes of production

>>34621794
>There's nothing unfair about a monopoly in a free market either.
Exactly, which is why we should not strive for 100% capitalism. We need to strive for 95% capitalism, where the markets are almost entirely free, less some regulations to rough out the edges (prevent monopolies, tax negative externalities, subsidize positive externalities, etc.). Once we start moving to 50% the economy starts going to shit, people get laid off, become dependent on the government, and the country starts slowly going to shit as no one is employed

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Post ancap and related meems

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>>34621402
Because communism destroys cultures you cuck.

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>>34621883
If you say so, boss

>>34621402
I don't listen to jewish lies.

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>>34621585
Tell that to Brexiters.

>>34621794
You realize Upper Canada was originally populated mostly by the equivalent amount of American Loyalist exiles. You realize a ton of British can trace their descent to French exiles from around the time of the French Revolution. Many Mennonites and religious groups trace their descent from Revolutionists during the Reformation who lost.

>>34621883
AnCap memes are the best thing to come from /pol/

>>34621921
So what? Cuba is still shit. What are you trying to get to? People leave because where they were before was shit.

>>34621402
>Be lazy neet
>Let parents take care of me
>When they croak I get a payday


Naw man I practice true marxism like carl marx

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>actually thinking communism could work again despite it being tested already, with horrible results

>>34621916
Stupid argument. They kept the pound, while the other EU cucks had their currency plummet because Greece decided to not pay back it's debt. 1 nation screws over the other 20 in that case. So if the UK was right to keep their own currency, odds are they were right to brexit, since they now have more flexibility in trade

>>34621801
What a bizarre interpretation of history. Cuba was a typical Latin American shit hole right up until the revolution, a layer of wealthy members of the local elite who profited from the service role Cuba was in and a mass of poor who were being rounded up into ghettos because they kept rebelling.

Japan and Germany were allowed to reindustrialize and develop because it was absolutely necessary for them to be markets for American goods in the post war era. US acknowledged this and poured funds into those areas to develop them, they could not be denegrated to the agrarian service role as the Russians wanted them to become, it was absolutely critical they develop.

>>34622019
And you know the argument they always use? "No one has ever actually had true communism yet". So your telling me as a walk closer to a piece of shit, and it starts to smell worse and worse, that it will smell incredible once I'm right on top of it? Total morons these commies

>>34621946
People leave when old, oftentimes repressive, regimes are overthrown. Even the most repressive brutal tyrants have their loyalists.

>>34622073
Implying you're not simply describing cuba's dictatorship.

>>34621402
I have seized the means of my sperm production, though.

>>34622027
>What a bizarre interpretation of history. Cuba was a typical Latin American shit hole right up until the revolution, a layer of wealthy members of the local elite who profited from the service role Cuba was in and a mass of poor who were being rounded up into ghettos because they kept rebelling.
You realize that after the revolution it stayed exactly like this, right? People got persecuted for going against socialism by Castro. They drive cars from the 80s that have become so broken down it is a miracle they still run anymore. There is a small elite that profits in Cuba while everyone else remains in dirt poverty. People still get put in ghettos. Sounds like nothing has changed in 50 years

>>34622090
People flee for numerous reasons part of the reason why Trump has to build a wall. They aren't fleeing from Communist countries over the Mexican border, they're fleeing from oppressive and or poor capitalist countries because they feel their lot will improve in the center of wealth and power.

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>>34622060
pic very related

>mfw someone mentions something about R E A L C O M M U N I S M

>>34622163
The problem with mexico is not captalism. Mexico is not even a real democracy.

>>34622207
Just like when some free market crackpot explains when their is some crash it was because "there wasn't really free markets" and that the western colonial societies developed because of free market capitalism.

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>tfw communism will never work

>>34622281
So there political system is why people flee Mexico? I see far more democracy in Mexico vs the US, if we take participation rates and polls conducted to see if the public influences policy. Most people in the US feel they have no influence over policies these are decided in corporate boardrooms and back office meetings of politicians and lobbyists.

Workers can seize the means of production in a capitalist society. It's called "employee-owned corporations." If you want to seize the means of production in the US, popularize EOC's.

>>34622308
capitalism crash
>only temporary recession, standard of living only reduces by a small amount in aggregate
communism crash
>People impoverished for 50 years, no access to food or medical care, people fleeing the country because it's that bad

>>34622374
We are taking care of this problem. We elected Donald Trump. This action is just one part of our great movement to restore democracy and the rule of law.

>>34622384
Actually, in many cases employer's have profit sharing plans, so all of their employees who opt in are part owners. For example, if there are 100mil shares outstanding, 10k employees, and each paycheck get 5 shares, by the end of the year the employees will have about 1.5% of the shares. Over 30 years they will own a lot of the company

>>34622308
how does a crash relate to free market anyway?

not that knowledgeable in that stuff desu

>>34622403
Quality of life improved if we look at Cuba before and after the revolution. Same in most places where Communism was embraced (China, Russia, etc.). We have to understand that these societies were also despotic and part of the third world prior to embracing communism (excluding East Germany which was completely obliterated in world war 2.

>>34621402
Because the means of production are completely divorced from actual monetary gain in the age of post-capitalism, on all levels, from personal (your productivity has nothing to do with how much you make) to corporate, national, and global (do you know what derivatives are?).

The only thing I'm furiously seizing right now in my life is my cock.

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>>34621402
I wish I could turn back time
Also I told you about states bro

https://youtu.be/kMY9OfKt4b4

>>34622374
>300mil people in America
>120mil people in Mexico
>USA GDP is 18 trillion
>Mexico GDP is 1 trillion
>US vote worth $60 each in terms of GDP
>Mexico vote worth $8 each in terms of GDP

US votes are worth more than Mexico votes. Thus the US has a better democracy. Don't get cucked too hard

>>34622491
And are still shit compared to the rest of the world.

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>>34622538
BEGONE GODLESS SWINE.

>>34622491
>life improves for 1 year after communism is adopted. Dog shit for the next 50
>life improves every year after capitalism (except for the cucks who don't want to work for a living. They get real fucked in this system). High income country in 50 years at most

>>34622472
Crashs occur when parts of the free market aren't regulated well. Crashes almost always occur due to poor risk management. For example, during the 08 crisis, the people holding the mortgage securities thought they were much less risky then they actually were. Thus investors bought them like crazy, but didn't have anything in place (such as excess cash reserves) to absorb losses when they ultimately occured. Thus, risk was managed poorly

>>34622684
>parts of the free market aren't regulated well
If it's regulated then its not free, my man.

>>34622553
Cuba is shit compared to Honduras, El Salvador, Haiti, Jamaica?

The Soviet Union was shit compared to Brazil or Mexico?

Fuck off cappy shill

>>34622730
Congo is a literal capitalist utopia and it seems to be doing pretty damn well.

>>34621899
keksimus maximus
originally original certified by board for original posting

>>34622684
>Crashs occur when parts of the free market aren't regulated well
wouldn't you eliminate crashes if you eliminate regulation, by making it free market?

>>34622715
I'm going to refer you to this post
>>34621863
Again, I only want 95% capitalism (almost entirely free, less a few regulations to rough out the edges) not 100% capitalism

>seizing the means of production
>having a good economy

pick one

Nobody wants things produced by communist countries because they're all shit for a reason, there's no free market competition to force companies to better each other.

>>34622790
The problem is still that a good chunk of society is stupid (think about how dumb the average person is). They have no concept of money and go out and get financed a house that they can't afford. They only reason they do this is because they can afford it now, and don't think a few steps ahead towards the future. Some regulation is necessary to prevent morons from doing this and then becoming bankrupt for the rest of their lives. If everyone was intelligent, regulation would likely be unnecessary

>>34622874
Sorry, what? Why wouldn't one factory owned by the workers compete with the other factory owned by the workers? Why does having a magical negro on top change things?

>>34622874
I for one 100% guarantee you that if I was living in a communist country I wouldn't do shit all day (would probably be on 4chan all day) since I would get paid anyways. Why work hard when the paychecks will always keep flowing?

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>>34621899
>when you believe in free market so you work with your daughters to lure in niggers from the Free Anarchist Country(TM), castrate them and sell them as slaves to rich cotton farmers

>>34622941
Because your average worker is a fucking moron that doesn't understand technology, aesthetics and marketing your products.

There's a reason the people in charge get paid more then some slave pushing a button on a production line.

>>34622941
Why would I do a good job, when I know a different job that pays the same will always be waiting for me? Why not screw around all day instead?

>>34622992
>Because your average worker is a fucking moron that doesn't understand technology, aesthetics and marketing your products.
So is your average factory owner, what's your point? They have people for that.

>>34623000
Why would it pay the same?

>>34622941
>Why wouldn't one factory owned by the workers compete with the other factory owned by the workers?
sounds a bit like capitalism to me
>competition between 2 businesses
>in communism
clarify pls?

>>34623020
>Why would it pay the same?
Because it's communism. We all get the same pay, since we are all given resources equally. So why give a shit?

>>34623020
>Why would it pay the same?
it should, since communism has everyone getting the same thing, right?

>>34621508
The thing is going communist when there are huge world potencies actively fighting to wreck your shit, that's the with cuba, whose any attempt at development is immediately barricaded by united states.
Besides, there are many more factors involved regarding the economic success of a country. I could list here 50 capitalist countries who are poor as shit and use their image to advocate against capitalism, but I won't do it because it would be a fallacy and that's your sort of thing.

>>34623102
Capitalism alone won't make your country prosperous. If the people in your country are shit, your country is going to be shit regardless. Capitalism is only the catalyst for hardworking people to convert ideas into profits for them and betterments to society for others

>>34623040
>sounds a bit like capitalism to me
Yes, it's not fucking Star Trek, it's obviously going to be based on the system it's a critique of and an upgrade to. The only real difference is that the ownership of the means of production is in the hands of the people, the worker is ideologically considered a pillar of the community, important things for the nation (such as culture) aren't left to the "free market" which inevitably makes them rot in a ditch, and everyone's striving to make the society better, economically, culturally, spiritually, and so on.

>>34623052
>>34623061
lolwut

>>34621661
True Christianity, that is the teachings of Christ, not your fan fic Calvinist spin off, abhor the concept of usury, which is basically profit and accumulation of wealth.

>>34622150
Education, literacy, access to medical care, and quality of life have gone up substantially

>>34623020
>So is your average factory owner, what's your point? They have people for that.

what would be their motivation to go up and beyond the other guys? if not money then they wouldn't, they just crank out shit nobody wants.

>>34623179
And 1/0 is infinity, so what's your point? When your base is 0, anything looks like an infinitely better upgrade. And regardless, it's still shit compared to South Korea, who over those same 50 years became a high income country due to their capitalism

>>34622019
It could not work because it's utopia, you idiot.

>>34622060
Do you even onow what communism is apart from memes and the propaganda you have been fed and so willingly digested since the day you were born?

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>>34623166
>the means of production is in the hands of the people
>implying it's not owned by the government, and the workers just get paid in peanuts and think they have power over it, while anyone who thinks otherwise and tries to act upon it is hunted down by secret police
look up the soviet union, perfect example tbqh

>>34623309
>>implying it's not owned by the government, and the workers just get paid in peanuts and think they have power over it, while anyone who thinks otherwise and tries to act upon it is hunted down by secret police
Pretty sure you're describing capitalism there chief.

>>34622617
>except for the cucks who don't want to work
Let me guess, you think poverty is a choice?

>>34623303
So when I don't buy into communism, it means I have been fed propaganda. But when you feed into communism, it means you haven't fed into propaganda? Can you not go full retard next time?

>>34623344
In some cases yes, in other no. Some people are stuck in bad situations, and other don't have the psychological or mental fortitude to be anything other than in poverty. Regardless, I'd rather see only 10-20% of the population in poverty than 99% of the population in poverty

>>34623150
>Capitalism is only the catalyst for hardworking people to convert ideas into profits for them and betterments to society for others
That's the wrongest definition of capitalism i have ever heard. In fact putting communism there would make the sentence much more sensible. But your first paragraph stands. Communism on it's own is not enough to make any nation prosper, nor any other production model for that matter.

>>34622939
So instead of them crashing/becoming bankrupt individually, they have to be feared because they can cause a large scale crash, and to prevent that, others that aren't at risk have to pay money through taxes to help enforce regulation over it?

Or am I getting something wrong?

>>34623329
>capitalism
>owned by the government
>not owned by individual people that aren't really related to politics
what are you saying?

>>34623469
>that aren't really related to politics
lololololololololo

>>34623437
No taxes would be involved in this case. The regulation would simply say "I'm sorry, but it's illegal to gamble your life savings away". The regulation stops the risk before it even happens. I think that you are thinking more of taxes being used as insurance. Insurance doesn't stop risk, it just transfers it to a different party (in the case of taxes, the transfer is to the middle class). Regulation, on the other hand, can totally shut down certain risk taking behaviors

>>34623244
Can't you see that it's fallacious to make the comparison with sk? Any country would look shit compared to their development. Again, I could list capitalist countries that have gone to absolute shit in the last decades or years, but using that contextual event to discredit the entire system would be dishonest.
The point stands. Communism has never been tried and it never will. It's utopia. Capitalism is the system that prevailed because so far it's, above all else, the system that reflects human nature. Unfairness, greed, unsatisfiable hunger, and the possibility of change. It's success doesn't mean it's good. Just because it works doesn't mean it's good. It's a pretty grandiose system if you judge based on technological advances, and a pretty shitty one based on poverty, social inequality injustice. But it's the one which, so far, has better fit human life, and we are pretty shitty at this anyway.
Communism is but a dream. A dream for a developed society beyond human boundaries. Almost romantic. No private property. Everyone share the deeds and goods of their work equally. No inequality, no wealth or poverty. Everyone ideally contributes to the system and the system supplies. Like an anthill or beehive. It could actually be viable in small communities. Some Indigenous peoples lived under a proto communist society. But on this world of ours... Simply incompatible with our lifestyles and demands.

>>34623365
Answer the question, do you even know what communism is?

>>34623309
/leftypol/ reporting in
Ideally, the government IS the people. The "government" becomes merely a polling service which collects petitions and organizes voting. They have little actual power other than their single vote per person and are more akin to a bunch of secretaries that are regularly rotated as government workers. Everything they do regarding the handling of votes and the voting process is watched and recorded on public feeds.

Every thing is handled in many small collectives and communes working together to their strengths to make a larger, self sufficient system

>>34623692
>Simply incompatible with our lifestyles and demands.
Why is capitalism compatible with Congolese lifestyles and demands, and communism isn't?

>>34623730
Protip: literally no one wants to vote for the equivalent of Homeowner's Association bullshit 10 timer per day.

>>34623244
Which is propped up on sweat shops and American military spending.

>>34623692
So your saying for the human species it doesn't work, but if we were a hive mind like bees or ants it would work. Okay, so why give a shit if it won't work for our species? That like saying we should try to cure all diseases with leeches, since technically, if they sick out all of the affected cells then they will cure the disease 100% of the time, while drugs will only cure 95% of the time regardless of what you do. In this case, the superior cure seems like the leechs, but anyone who isn't autistic can see that this is a retard solution

>>34621402

The very nature of humans kinda stops Communism from working. We're just too unpredictable to work with a Utopian ideology.

>>34623748
Which is why it would take a substantial portion of the population to be concerned about it before it even gets considered for a vote. Besides, voting would likely be something people do survey style all at once over the course of a week, a voter popping in to put in their 2 cents and pop out.

>>34623772
>mfw an autist thinks they have sweatshops in South Korea
>mfw he doesn't realize most of them are working desk jobs
>mfw they use more Internet per capita than the US

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But I'm self employed, I have in fact seized the means of production

>>34621402
I am the means of production man.

>>34623908
>mfw people don't understand how much copycat shit is made in SK.
>yfw I work with the military and the common advice for going over there on rotation is to get all the shit you want made over there for dirt cheap
If capitalism can't make money off local sweatshops, they just outsource. Korea just isn't as big as china or japan and sweat shops aren't good for tourism so they try to keep it out of sight.

>>34623730
>>34623894
No more attempts? just a pretty weak argument that people are too lazy to express their political beliefs on controversial issues?

>>34622981
Free market is not the same as a lawless society.

>>34623020
>So is your average factory owner, what's your point? They have people for that.
Because the people gathered in the factory by their own will in a free capitalist market.

>>34624076
>mfw autist thinks South Korea relies on tourist dollars to keep the country afloat
>mfw autist doesn't realize South Korean stock market is worth $1.2 trillion dollars

>>34623748
I don't really know what you mean by referring to Congo like that. When I said "our demands" I meant us humans, not us from developed countries, given that I'm not in one.
I'm sure Congo could go communist, but the rest of the world would not have it,so they would need to isolate themselves,and I'm not sure they are self sufficient. In a different reality where the capitalist countries would allow another communist nation to exist, Congo's citizens would have to be prepared for drastic changes in life style.

>>34623748
>10 timer per day
I think most communities would set it up so that maybe there's a bi-weekly or monthly vote and then special elections if there's a pressing matter. Since it's all decided by the community, in theory it should eventually gravitate to a balance of what's most convient and most effective for the majority of the populace

>>34621508
>venezuela happening now!

>>34624234
The dissolution of private property would transform every car and household into collective property. Everyone would have a house, but not a fancy or large one. The elites would shrivel in pain, but the poor would be living the dream. From an outside point of view, everyone would seem lower class, but everyone would have a house and an income. Work would be compulsory. You must contribute to the system. No exceptions. You would try your best to be as productive as possible. Let's say you're a doctor. Now your wage is the same of any other professional in the country, from the operator in the factories, to the harvesters in the fields. From this day, all private business would be dissolved. The necessary consumer goods would be produced by the "government". There would be no government as we known, the system is stateless, but a worker's institute to organize these sorts of things. That means that food, clothing, tools, machinery, all of that would be produced by public factories that would distribute their products freely and evenly. So it's very unlikely that there would be some space left for the superfluous or frivolous things. We would wear simple but functional clothing, use simple but functional tools, eat the same food, all alike and equal. No more "brands" or "logos". In a figurative way, there in the market there wouldn't be a different variety of pastas, for different prices, varying from the cheapest and worse in quality, to the most expensive and fancy one, restricted only for those who can pay. There would be one pasta, the public pasta. Average taste, but very nutritional. And everyone would have access to it.
Are you getting the idea of the beehive? It's truly beautiful when you get it... It's like a work of art. Impossible to be concretized, but still beautiful. I get a boner just from talking about it...

>>34623178
I'm a libertarian and I don't give a fuck about religion. You're free to set your prices as low as possible if you can compete with me by I won't stop accumulating wealth if people are willing to pay more for my products. There's nothing logically imoral about that.

>>34624240
Honestly, their people are literally begging for capitalism. The corporations are viewed practically as angels there, and the CEO as hero's from ancient lore

>>34624240
Going to literal shit. People don't even have paper to wipe their asses in venezuela anymore.

>>34624355
The Soviets also had to wait in several-hour long lines to get their toilet paper. I am seeing a theme here

>>34624264
fuck off, workers being in control of the means of production will not and should not lead to what you're describing. Not all property, not even most homes would become collective property, a majority of day to day items would still be personal property. The private property that would be siezed is the factories, banks, and large estates that would be better off in the hands of the workers.
Second, most people would follow idea of "From each according to his ability, to each according to his." The "from each according to his ability" part guarantees that not only will there be diversity, but there will be not be an "averaging" out as you described it since everyone will still be trying to do their best.
Stop trying to apply your autistic fascination with sameness to shit like society, it doesn't and won't work

>>34623831
Your analogy sucks but luckily I get your point.
I doubt you will still find left parties who actively preach on the red revolution. Politically, left wingers try to take some positive aspects of communism and introduce them under the current system. That is, public funded education for all, public funded health system for all, the state that provides the necessary means of life for its citizens, a state that interferes more on the market to avoid abuse from the great greatest corporations, protection of the consumer, protection of the working class against corporations, social programs to fight poverty, wealth accumulation, social inequality, lack of education, these sorts of things. Things that the root capitalism of completely free Market abhor.

>>34624264
LOL what a retard.
>Work would be compulsory
If there is no government who would enforce this?
>Let's say you're a doctor
Why would anyone be a doctor if they can get by just doing the minimum.
>The necessary consumer goods
Yeah. There's a government. Who is the government to decide what is necessary and what is not?
>a worker's institute to organize these sorts of things
This is government
>superfluous or frivolous things
Who is the government to define what is superfluous and what is not?
>Are you getting the idea of the beehive? It's truly beautiful when you get it... It's like a work of art. Impossible to be concretized, but still beautiful. I get a boner just from talking about it...
No. This is a gigantic contradiction.

>>34624195
>implying the stockmarket isn't propped up on sweat shop teir production
>implying sweatshops and trade aren't massive boosts to the numerical value of an economy.

No, I'm afraid the only bankruptcy porky has declared there is morally.

>>34624468

I can only guess what he wants is just Tyranny of the mob. Because that's what it sounds like to me.

>>34624460
>public funded education for all, public funded health system for all
shit services
>the state that provides the necessary means of life for its citizens
paid with stolen money
>Things that the root capitalism of completely free Market abhor.
Nope. The free market is the only way to eradicate the real problems of the ones you listed. Private services are always better and cheaper than their state counterparts and competition that is not rigged by the state ends up producing good and services that are the virtually most affordable by the population.

>>34624450
I described the utopian view of the communist society, I don't know why you're so upset. There's no need to be upset.
"Room for diversity" means room for wealth inequality, poverty and then fight of classes. It's not truly communist until it becomes one whole breathing organism like a cell or a body.

>>34624635
>wealth inequality
There's nothing wrong with that.
>poverty
Poverty is only caused by regulations.
>fight of classes
This doesn't even exist. It's just a marxist concept to lure workers into communism.
>Room for diversity
This is what propels humanity. Your backwards authoritarian ideology only generates poverty and destroys fertile grounds for people to thrive and create knowledge and technology.

>>34624495
>tfw retard anon is confusing South Korea with China and Vietnam
How can a country have the highest Internet usage per capita if everyone is working in Sweatshops? Also, unrelated, but I'm going to guess you have a degree in gender studies, and $200k in debt

>>34624264
... see, this is why no one takes communist/socialist politics seriously... The goal of socialism is to ultimately achieve communism, preferably F(ully) A(utomated) L(uxury) C(ommunism) (FALC), similar to something you would see in fictional universes like Startrek where the federation was able to use automation and advanced energy production to create a self sustaining community.

>>34624741
>advanced energy production to create a self sustaining community.
Funny thing is that the only way we will ever have this technlogy is through capitalism.

>>34624563
You're so wrong it hurts to read. Shit services you say? In my country public universities are the best ones, the competition to get inside is colossal because everyone knows of their prestige. The private ones are living jokes that sell useless degrees that stand no chance against degrees from public ones.
Now the health system of my country is currently under a crisis,but we can take canada as an example of a competent public health system.
I don't know what you mean with "stolen money". Are you referring to taxes? I think you're coming from such selfish mind set that yoi can't fathom the idea... Do you deem your, let's see, left kidney a thief because it's not doing as good as the right one, and you could live without it,so you deem it as a burden or a dead weight? Do you regret the calories your body uses to keep that inefficient kidney alive? A society is a whole. You give, you take. You pay your taxes to enjoy the benefits of public funded services. Of one day you need them, they will be right there waiting for you. Right now they are providing for citizens who are in need for whatever reason. When you retire, it will be this same society who will keep you warm and fed while they do their share of work.
Now how is the free market going to eradicate poverty, if it thrives on it?
How are private services going to provide for the poor who can't afford it? Let me guess:
> Being poor is a choice
> If you're poor you deserve the shit you got
If your potential answer revolves around those ideas, don't bother. I won't finish reading it, let alone reply.

>>34624468
It's no contradictory, it's utopia. Please visit the dictionary and see the meaning of the word "utopia". It's precisely why the system is impractical. Everyone, every citizen, would need a level of consciousness and care about their society analogue to that of a cell about the body. "why would anyone become a doctor when they could do the minimum" that's human nature right there, and that's one of the reasons communism is utopic.

>>34624724
As moderately decent of an attempt that is, not everyone needs to work in the sweat shops for them to exist. The internet is also a pretty common escape from harsh realities such as obscenely competitive work environments due to overpopulation. This desperate state of affairs has people looking for work in all sorts of places including in factories with low wages and work conditions. Sounds a lot like a breeding ground for both sweat shops and high internet usage.

>>34621402
Kek your propaganda failed on /pol/ so now you try to convert neets, fitting since Marx was one.

>>34624912
So you agree it's a pipedream? Then just lay it at the door. It has no practical value.

>>34624563
How's that affordable health system working for america, burger?
You're a gem. You speak of free market im that idealistic way that usually leftists speak about communism.
Free market means an unending commercial Ballance, it means rich people buying and poor people working for survival, it means a crisis like1929 on the verge of happening because the ascending nature of the curve can't go up forever. Go read a book for god sake.

>>34624855
>In my country public universities are the best ones, the competition to get inside is colossal because everyone knows of their prestige. The private ones are living jokes that sell useless degrees that stand no chance against degrees from public ones.
Where are you from just in case.
>we can take canada as an example of a competent public health system
Any form of private health system is better and would be affordable for everyone if it wasn't for government enforcing taxes and welfare.
>You pay your taxes to enjoy the benefits of public funded services.
I pay because I'm forced to and I would rather spend my money on better private services that only exist because they face competition and because of it became affordable.
>Of one day you need them, they will be right there waiting for you.
I won't need them if I have better private ones that I can pay with the money that wasn't stolen through taxes.
>Right now they are providing for citizens who are in need for whatever reason.
No one is entitled to my money and these people if they too had they tax money would have good affordable services because they too would be a market niche that would develop through competition.
>When you retire, it will be this same society who will keep you warm and fed while they do their share of work.
No. I could pay people to care for me if I save money for my old age, also, as things are cheaper in a free market I would need to save much less to get by.
>Now how is the free market going to eradicate poverty, if it thrives on it?
Again. Competition that is not rigged by the state leads to always cheaper services and products to all spheres of society.
> Being poor is a choice
> If you're poor you deserve the shit you got
It's a choice the state made for you.

>>34621674
>comparing a country to Haiti

now i know i don't want communism

>>34624930
Confirm. This anon majored in gender studies and has $200k in debt

>>34624984
>it means a crisis

At least millions of people aren't starving to death.

>>34624710
>There's nothing wrong with that.
In the sense that there is nothing wrong with not alleviating human suffering when we have the ability, sure. There is nothing wrong with millions living in abject squalor for literally no reason if you don't care about human dignity, yes.
>Poverty is only caused by regulations.
Pure ideology. Poverty has existed since long before capitalism and the liberal state.
>That doesn't even exist.
When the rentier class bands together to stop wage increases, lobbies constantly for the elimination of every concession the workers have won, and sends in thugs and scabs if they can't manage to just fire everybody in the location when they hear "union" like Walmart, they're fighting a war against the working class.

>>34624710
Literally what? Wealth inequality is poverty, you idiot. Some people hoarding wealth, some people with nothing to eat. How the hell is that caused by regulations?
If you don't take marx words, You can experience the tensions between classes in any country of the world.all you need is to visit a strike, a worker's protest, a syndicate... It's like denying evolution. How an ideology that preach Ultimate equality generates poverty? It annihilate wealth and richness. Is that your definition of poverty?

>>34624984
>it means rich people buying and poor people working for survival
For businesses to survive they also need to appeal to the masses and if those masses are poor the products and services required for their survival and more importantly CONSUMPTION need to fit into their wallets. Competion of the businesses targeted at those people would lead to virtually the cheapest possible prices for them versus and maximum consumerism capability. Those businesses need to be affordable or another one takes place and the old ones go bankrupt. The economy moves itself.

>>34624968
Read this: >>34624460
Aspects of it into the current system, how many times does one have to say it.

>>34625030
>human suffering
Wealth inequality is not the cause of human suffering, you could say so of poverty but I addressed it on the next point.
>Poverty has existed since long before capitalism and the liberal state.
Yeah. Regulations of any kind of previous form of state.
>When the rentier class bands together to stop wage increases, lobbies constantly for the elimination of every concession the workers have won, and sends in thugs and scabs if they can't manage to just fire everybody in the location when they hear "union" like Walmart, they're fighting a war against the working class.
This only happens because of the state supporting these business, not a free market.
>>34625050
>Wealth inequality is poverty, you idiot.
No. It's only differences in wealth. Not only because some people accumulated more by their own merits others must be poor because of it. The economy is not a zero-sum game.
>How an ideology that preach Ultimate equality generates poverty?
By regulating the market and stomping competition in favor of welfare.

>>34624990
You think that your magical free market system would have no poor people at all? You think that people are only poor because of taxes and government intervention? You think that everyone would be able to pay for their "private services"?
You're demented. You are right now on the same utopic level of the communist up there

my response to this thread

>>34625155
pls reply

>>34625163
>You think that everyone would be able to pay for their "private services"?
Yes. Because there would be a profitable market niche for every wealth strate. Even if not perfect this is obviously a thousand times better than communism.

>>34624851
Yes, that's why electric cars, fully automated factories, high efficiency resource reclamation/recycling and space travel beyond satellites are so common now a days...

commie cuck get off /r9k/

>>34625202
Take the hands of the state away from the market and soon you get all that.

>>34625068
They are just "affordable" enough to keep the majority in the class they are in or lower.

>>34625232
They are as affordable as people are willing to pay.

>>34625189
No, it's just like communism actually: utopic fantasy with little to no ground on reality and Ultimately impractical.

>>34624851
Pretty sure it's capitalism that is causing existing energy interests (coal, oil) to resist every opportunity for clean energy advancement, since it renders the industries they hold interest in maintaining less valuable.
Electric cars aren't new, you know.

>>34624741
Holy shit FALC is so dumb you idiot kids and your trend politics.
I've been in socialist/communist/anarchist circles for years and literally nobody talks about FALC and it has nothing to do with communism.

>>34625321
But it's probably government regulation of the market that sets back new technologies from entering the already rigged competition.

>>34625002
Or this anon has done his homework in preparation for spending about 9 months in SK starting this summer. But that's ok, you just wanted something to distract people from the fact that you've yet to make a point I've not explained away with solid reasoning.

How about you go look up the working conditions in SK? Even the office workers should be able to tell about how competitive and harsh the job market is there. Or you could maybe even actually go there and check out how easy it is to get a knock off made for cheap? Custom order even. Some even refer to it as the copycat country of the world.

>>34624851
And still Urss rivaled usa on the space race. It's true that technological advancement would not be as fast in the communist utopia because no money would be spent on technological research until the basic needs of the masses had been fully supplanted (cloth, food, shelter, work, education, health) which could take forever. But to think that society would be stagnant is untrue.

>>34625363
What makes that such a probable explanation? Even under capitalist logic, why would you expect industries to act in favor of their own destruction for the sake of others?

>>34625363
You really need to take a break. Really. One day you will realize how wrong you have been, and the shame will be agonizing.

>>34625147
>Wealth inequality is not the cause of human suffering, you could say so of poverty but I addressed it on the next point.

Wealth inequality without poverty is its own hell. Hierarchy for its own sake is absurd, it serves only the interests of the rich.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2011/12/four-futures/

Read on "Rentism".

>Yeah. Regulations of any kind of previous form of state.

Please tell me what "regulation" kept vassals in poverty under their feudal lord. The fundamental relationship under stateless capitalism would be identical.

>This only happens because of the state supporting these business, not a free market.

Class war would be waged openly and even more unevenly without a government. If workers tried to instigate a union, it is in the interest of the rentiers to stop them with force. And they will, if only to protect their lifestyle.

>>34625394
They wouldn't but when the state, that only exists because of brute force and stolen tax money, supports some businesses while applies bureaucracy on the competition this is not really a free market.

>>34625479
That doesn't really answer what I am asking. Even in a "free" market, why wouldn't established industry resist and try to eliminate the forces of development that could put them out of business? Are you so foolish as to think that it's the state, and only that state, that keep business interests from acting against the greater good for personal gain?

>>34625449
>Hierarchy for its own sake is absurd
No. Hierarchy for the sake of merit. It serves the interests of the whole society.
>Please tell me what "regulation" kept vassals in poverty under their feudal lord. The fundamental relationship under stateless capitalism would be identical.
Military power.

>>34625222
Except most of these exist because the state set the conditions for them. Reducing exhaust emissions, setting rewards for recycling and reusing materials, offering grants and funding research into space exploration. Manufacturing automation was a funny way for capitalism to shoot itself in the foot though. If they have no wage slaves running in the rat race for cash, how will the people distract themselves from the fact that the CEOs do little more than hire accountants to run the numbers for them and play their own version of royalty politics?

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>>34621402
I'll sieze the means of your aerospace transport commiebastard.

>>34625584
>It serves the interests of the whole society.
It definitely doesn't serve my interests to have some jackass be able to legitimately control my life just because he's achieved more conventional success than me, and hierarchy definitely subjugates far more people than it uplifts. Or are you one of those types who believes that it's good in society for people to remain oppressed?

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>>34621402
historically it never ended well

>commies
>human

pick one faggots
day of the helicopter ride is coming

>>34625247
Because they have to unless they want to be miserable or go without. Even the loan system is just an intricate gambling system that defuses debt through causing bankruptcy. All that debt from interest has to end up somewhere.

>>34625222
Just a quick question, have you ever tried mentally playing out a thought experiment where your full politics come to fruition and it's all ancap fedora paradise with no state? What group or structure did you have to imagine yourself scapegoating next to come to terms with the notion that your one-dimentional worldview didn't fix everything?

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Friendly reminder that r9k is allied with /pol/ and is a Fascist board

Communists have no place here, and will be doxxed when wartime comes

>>34625660
Haha okay, I guess that makes your ideas right.

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>>34625678
My ideas are right for many other reasons

PS, we are winning, you are losing. Fascism lives again

>>34625660
>Fascis
Wrong faggot. this is AnCap-ville. you best tip toe you way back to your collectivist NAP-violating hell hole

>>34625584
>Hierarchy for the sake of merit
Do you honestly believe that? What is meritocratic about the legion of rentiers whose greatest achievement is being born to a rich father and having the good sense to listen when dad says let someone else manage the money?

Clearly you didn't read the article. There is no possibility but an even more stratified society. Forever. Intellectual property (the only meaningful kind in a society without "poverty" in the sense of empty stomachs and exposure to the elements) will concentrate. Can a man not suffer under the knowledge that the upper echelon is permanently closed to him and his sons? This ignores the fact that a society centered around IP is a total impossibility under stateless capitalism.

>Military power.
...which would continue to exist without the state, merely another commodity bought and sold.

>>34625660
Back to your containment board pls /r9k/ is an independent state.

>>34625579
>why wouldn't established industry resist and try to eliminate the forces of development that could put them out of business?
How would they do so without the intervention of the state if the competion is more affordable?
>>34625594
>Except most of these exist because the state set the conditions for them. Reducing exhaust emissions, setting rewards for recycling and reusing materials, offering grants and funding research into space exploration.
All those can be made much more efficiently by the private initiative.
>>34625608
>Or are you one of those types who believes that it's good in society for people to remain oppressed?
You wouldn't be oppresed, as time goes and a free economy solidifies itself you would have all your basic needs cheaply handed to you by many competing businesses that are simultaneously trying to lower their prices and reach the biggest share of the market possible for maximum profit.
>ancap fedora paradise with no state?
Who said ancap? It's implied that it's a minimal libertarian state but the market is free.

>>34625697
Yeah okay, that should convince anyone.

>>34625698
Ancap is a Utopia that will never be. The left will push to become authoritarian and kill off you people. That is why fascism is so important, its to stop the marxists from taking full authoritarian power

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>>34625362
Alternatively, you can live in your monochromatic dystopian hive world. Pretty sure an actual communism doesn't really require people to work out of necessity, more just to facilitate the creation of luxuries or perfect their arts.

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>>34625730
Are you a communist or some other hard left?

If so, I doubt anything I say will convince you. Your kind needs to be killed. Sorry that I dont want my race (white) to be genocided while being forced to pay for Maria and her 8 children

>>34625715
>Do you honestly believe that? What is meritocratic about the legion of rentiers whose greatest achievement is being born to a rich father and having the good sense to listen when dad says let someone else manage the money?
Nothing but if the money was not stolen or handed from the state there's nothing wrong with it either.
>Can a man not suffer under the knowledge that the upper echelon is permanently closed to him and his sons?
Yes. If the market is free and all his basic and consumption needs are met by affordable prices. Also, the upper society is only closed for as long the businesses that sustain their wealth is affordable to people.

>>34625728
>How would they do so without the intervention of the state if the competition is more affordable?
You're not addressing the stage of production where my criticisms are, you're just trying to skip to the end again. IF the competition is more affordable implies we've even made it to the stage of the tech being competitive. Why wouldn't existing industry do everything to prevent this from occurring, like they have throughout history?

>>34625801
>Why wouldn't existing industry do everything to prevent this from occurring, like they have throughout history?
Because they only did so with the aid of the state. How else would they do it without it with new competitors being free from bureaucracy and taxes to join the market?

>>34625786
No I'm not, actually. It's intellectually honest to not assume everyone who disagrees with you is part of the same homogenous political hivemind. Intellectual honesty is what I'm criticizing you over, it's way lazy to just barge into an arguement and say "hey everyone this position is right no need to explain just get in the car."

>>34625762
You forget the part where the communists MURDER the capitalists and send most high paid workers to labor camps

How do you think this retarded utpoia comes to fruition?

>>34625825
What special power does only the state have that companies couldn't have for themselves in a stateless society? Violence?

>>34625728
There is no incentive for them to make them more efficient which is the crux of the problem. Again, capitalism perpetuates itself. Technology which would make current markets less valuable would be purposely held back and only through the powers of the state (which SHOULD be held by the collective people!) can the older production be forced to transition in favor of better technology that would render the old obsolete.

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>>34625849
Thats why I asked

Then what are you? I can easily explain if you tell me your political views.

I said: Fascism is necessary because the hard left will attempt to achieve maximum power unless stopped by authoritarian centrist/right, and will kill off those they consider to be "privileged"

>>34625865
>Violence?
I'm not talking about a stateless society, I'm talking about a state that doesnt intervene in the market. It boils down to military power. If you don't pay taxes and go through all the arbitrary stages for joining the market the state shuts down your business or provides the ones that are of its interests with less taxes while enforcing more taxes for the competition.
>>34625884
>There is no incentive for them to make them more efficient which is the crux of the problem.
There is no incentive for the state if the state's elite profits from old industries. The state should have no say in the market for those things to not happen.

>>34625917
I don't really ascribe to ideology, I just do whatever I feel is achievable and ethical in a given context. I take exception to ideology because it should be framework that people use to make sense of the world, but as applied, people just use ideology to cover up things they'd prefer not to have to engage with, which is divisive and not very honest.

>>34625917
You keep saying fascism and posting Hitler. Is that intentional?

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>>34625736
>kill off you people.
wrong

>>34625961
So you are centrist and have no strong beliefs, that makes you empty and completely useless in this context

>>34625963

I love Hitler, what do you mean?

>>34625950
So, again, what special power does only the state have that companies couldn't have for themselves in a stateless marketplace?

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Because my country doesn't produce anything except single mother drug addicts and foetal alcohol syndrome.

>>34625987
No I have strong beliefs, they just are not mapped to an ideological framework because I think those frameworks get in the way of honest discourse by making us skip over the nuance of political problems.

>>34625991
None but the marketplace today is not stateless. It is regulated and its regulations are enforced by militar power in the very end.

>>34625987
I know this might sound dumb, but why do you love Hitler?

>>34625787
>Do you honestly believe that? What is meritocratic about the legion of rentiers whose greatest achievement is being born to a rich father and having the good sense to listen when dad says let someone else manage the money?

Do you realize that you just said the hierarchy is justifiable because it's meritocratic and then turned around and admitted that it isn't meritocratic?

>Yes. If the market is free and all his basic and consumption needs are met by affordable prices. Also, the upper society is only closed for as long the businesses that sustain their wealth is affordable to people.

Price is meaningless post-scarcity (what you describe when you refer to a world without poverty). The operative commodities are intellectual property and human capital. "Businesses" in the sense you're thinking about will not exist when everyone is lodged and fed. Because everything that is necessary is able to be produced, the only thing that could maintain hierarchy is a system of intellectual property. Unlike today, no new businesses can arise to compete because they do not own the intellectual property. The mechanism keeping the companies (eventually company) owning the notions of the processes of turning raw materials into food from causing society to lapse into scarcity again is only fear. Land, likewise, would naturally concentrate along class lines preventing (as we are already prevented) someone from eking out their own living off the land.

Read the article.

It's really pointless though because intellectual property must be upheld with force, which requires either:
1. a state
or
2. everyone to enforce their own ownership of their IP, which is obviously ridiculous

>>34626014
You cant claim to be outside of the political spectrum

Theres a finite amount of stances you can actually have

Answer me this: Why is Fascism bad?

>>34626019
>None
Great, I'm glad you see my point.
>the marketplace today is not stateless
It's not. That definitely doesn't mean that all analysis of how they could be expected to act in a freer market no longer applies. Does my criticism not stand? There's no reason for companies to not act against the greater good in pursuit of their own interest, with or without a state, because the power that the state uses in the market would just be utilized by companies anyways. You can't give me one example of a power that is exclusive to the state that companies couldn't have in a stateless marketplace. Stop using the state as a convenient boogeyman and try imagining a complex world.

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>>34626077
Not him, but i wanted to tackle your question ...

>Why is fascism bad.

It restricts freedom of speech. Don't mistake nationalism for fascism.

>>34626077
To keep is brief, as again, I think problems are infinitely nuanced,
For the same reason communism is bad- it conveniently scapegoats a group of people as the reason everything is bad, so instead of actually trying to solve problems, fascists just want to eliminate enemies, convinced that this will solve their problems. I don't think this is an honest solution.

>>34626077
>answer me this: name one successful fascist state

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>>34626043
I find him to be the most interesting and important figure of human history

He really changed his country from a humiliated mess to a near Utopia. He had hypnotic and magikal powers. He also had morals that you could learn from and lead a fulfilling life.
After all that, he was framed and demonized by the Jews. People are still being thrown in jail to this day for denying the holocaust.

He is the REAL jesus christ in my eyes

>>34625851
Why would the high paid workers go to labor camps? Why do you assume that a direct democratic communism would form the same way as the dictator driven "socialisms" that called themselves communist which people seem to love pointing out? While I doubt the capitalists would be willing to give up their hold over all the land and assets they profit from merely by owning, we are a bit less savage now a days and it would be likely that they would only receive a prison sentence which, in turn, would be served within a correctional facility, many of which are down right cushy compared to the old days and are more focused on rehabilitating and reeducating it's inhabitants.

Alternatively, a perfect world would have some of the capitalists start the transition themselves by setting up the production of advanced technologies that would allow for highly efficient production and recycling of waste and then would provide it for a much lighter labor cost or none at all since the resources are eventually being handled at such an efficient rate that there is little need for a compulsory work force.

>>34626053
>Do you realize that you just said the hierarchy is justifiable because it's meritocratic and then turned around and admitted that it isn't meritocratic?
By the merit of the ones who produced wealth they are entitled to sending it to whoever they want to.
>Price is meaningless post-scarcity
But we're talking about pre-scarcity.
>no new businesses can arise to compete because they do not own the intellectual property
Intelectual property is nothing but another regulation and should be abolished.
>It's not
Of course it is. State forces, again, the great example, military power, enforces rules over the market. If you don't conform to the market practices that state preaches you are shut down. What about the war on drugs? You're not allowed to sell drugs legally because of the ideological justifications of the state. How is that a stateless market if you can sell products that the state doesn't allow you to without suffering consequences from the military power that will hunt you down and lock you up?

>>34626077
Oh, and I can claim to hold any position I want to, and I think the notion of a political spectrum (or, god forbid, an alignment chart) is really flawed because it assumes that ideologies have a spacial, numerical relation to one another, when really they are based on entirely different ways of thinking about society, reality, and human nature that can't possibly be consolidated in relation to one anther except that they might disagree here or agree there.

>>34626171
last part for:
>>34626089
correction: can't sell products*

>>34626128
All Countries have died from war, but while they were around they were without a doubt "succesful"

1. Rome
2. Nazi Germany
3. Nationalist Spain

Fascist Brazil and Fascist Britain almost made it.

>>34626094
Its a reaction to a growing authoritarian left. You are more likely to have free speech from a fascist state than a socialist because of "ableism" laws

>>34626171
>>It's not
No, idiot, I'm agreeing with you that it's not currently stateless. Reread my post.

>>34626229
Hehe. My bad. By the way, I'm tired and I need to leave. I know shit about politics and economy. I was just fucking with this thread for the while.

>>34626150
Kek, because thats what all the communist countries did

You are aware that the soviet union killed 10 million of its own people? Mao zedong killed even more of his own people, alongside destroying China's history and brainwashing an entire generation

Communism is not possible to achieve

>>34626202
>You are more likely to have free speech from a fascist state than a socialist because of "ableism" laws
Why would I settle for more likely when I could have neither of you parasites?

>>34626171
>By the merit of the ones who produced wealth they are entitled to sending it to whoever they want to.
A hierarchy isn't meritocratic simply because it was built on the bones of a so-called meritocracy. This argument isn't for its own sake. You said:
>It serves the interests of the whole society.
Please tell me how the rentier great-great-grandchildren of people who worked hard once occupying a place of luxury denied people who (in this mindset) don't work as hard as their ancestor but nonetheless work "serves society".

>But we're talking about pre-scarcity.

No we aren't, a world without poverty but with hierarchy has to be post-scarcity.

>Intelectual property is nothing but another regulation and should be abolished.

A world without poverty but with hierarchy can only exist if intellectual property exists. This will become even more true as the necessity for labor is diminished (the subject of the article).

I have literally no clue what the fuck you're trying to say with that incoherent rant at the end.

>>34625950
The massive number of businesses bought out or bankrupted from old businesses is far more of a threat than state intervention. And again, the state SHOULD belong to the people. There should not be rigged up elections using politicians paid for by sponsors. To claim that an absolutely free market would not just self regulate in a similar manner to how the state does it is an outright falsehood. "Business associations" and "Partnerships" would be just a prevalent and creating even more of a monopoly strangle hold on people than ever before. The state would become a mere formality, particularly once the world globalizes and nationalities become less than the joke they almost are already.

>>34626342
Because if you just leave them be, communist parasites will take control. Fascism is better for your future. You have to realize it only pops up during troubled times, and is meant to save lives and the country

>>34626344
This:
>34626271
I fucking don't know. I just tried to came up with concepts that sounded like I have read anything but I didn't.

>>34626387
As long as you're not actually an ancap I don't really care that you just wasted my time and yours.

If you actually are though and you just spent a half hour totally failing to defend your ideology you should kys

>>34626374
Why would I leave either them or you be?

>>34626202
>rome
Wasn't fascist.

>>34626387
Working on your articulation and discourse isn't a bad thing or a waste (I enjoyed talking to you) but you should probably read some political theory.

File: 1481924019367.jpg (100KB, 498x460px) Image search: [Google]

100KB, 498x460px

>>34621402
Because nobody ever will. It's asinine and completely out of touch with reality to assume that throngs of dispossessed workers would be reasonable judges of sound social or economic policy, let alone good and just arbiters of law and order.

People are greedy and selfish by their very nature - we're inclined toward it for self-preservation, if nothing else. And those marginalized poor - the laborers, the peasants - they are the most self-interested of all.

It will never work. You're classless society is a pipe dream. Grow up.

>>34626272
All of which were failed socialist attempts brought about by a dictator using communism as a cover for their power grab. Communism is not obtainable so long as the ones leading the revolution seek the power for themselves. It is ultimately a revolution FOR the people's rule and bastardizing it with a dictatorship negates the point of the whole revolution.

>>34626464
It was fun not entirely wasted but I believe that a minimal state would be a nice thing.
>>34626489
Will probably do just so I can argue with people here.

>>34626470
Because he thinks it's a binary choice.

Someone on steam randomly added me with this name and he's a fag. This thread is part of the gay agenda.