Who else /loves the free market/ here?

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The freer the market is, the freer the people will be

>>34412842
My dude. What subspecies of ancap are you? Hoppean reporting in.

Yes, but ancap is much too extreme
>Essentially allow corporations to have slaves
>Freedom
Tyranny caused by people who are free is still tyranny.

I am the free market

mises I miss you

btw anarcho anything is a meme, minarchism is the way to go

>>34412924
Corporations are state-backed companies. Delet your post and leave this thread.

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>>34412888
Good to see fellow Hoppe AnCaps on here.

When has there ever been such a thing as markets free of state interference? Every wealthy country has become so by violating free markets worse than your mothers boyfriend on cialis.

>>34412888
>>34413164
my boyss

you retarded faggots have a board for this you know

no one ares about babbys retarded political views here niggers

>>34413172
Look at Switzerland. They are incredibly rich because they have a really low amount of state interference.

>>34413172
>what is britain?

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>>34413172
>When has there ever been such a thing as markets free of state interference?

United States of America c. 1780-1900

Tell me one reason why the free market is good eccept your own gain (because then the best option would be a free market for only you)

>>34413220
Oh you mean the country that was using its military to expand and beat out competitors, that used that military to expand their economy that utilized forced slave labor, that imposed massive tarrifs on superior British made products. That country?

>>34413251
Only in a free market you can truly abolish the state, and an abolishment of the state guarantees absolute freedom.

>>34413251
In short, you can only gain by making others gain

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>>34413281
>That country?

No

>>34413282
>Only in a free market you can truly abolish the state
False. No state doesn't mean no rules. You should know this as ancapism is based on the NAP. Also, you assume freedom is always good.

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>>34412842
The free market is a spook.

>>34413215
When? When British ruled the world under the might of its military forcing countries to accept its goods at the barrel of a gun while imposing tariffs on foreign products entering its markets.

>>34413330
Egoism is what creates states

>>34413328
I advocate for natural rights. They guarantee my freedom from harm, no more regulations are needed. You don't need a state to enforce the NAP. Also, freedom might not be good for the general public, but I don't give a damn about the public, I care only about myself, and myself is interested in freedom.

>>34413339
You have obviously never read Stirner. Stirner opposes states not unions. An union exists only as long as it serves the member's interests unlike a state.

>>34413371
If your argument is just "the free market is good for me" it's a bad one. Why are trying to free everyone instead of just yourself?

>>34413334
Still doesn't mean that Britain wouldn't have become wealthy on it's own. Coal and steel were largely deregulated in Britain and America.

>>34413417
i want AnCapism not to "free everybody" but rather to take away power from everybody. I can't be free as long as people weild political power over me.

>>34413457
Won't massive corporations effectively wield power over you though?

>>34412842
Only because my mummy makes my money and she gives me some occasionally.

Corporations are going to replace nation states in few decades, in fact they essentially already have.

>>34413457
Let me specify. Why do you support the NAP for example? A rule that says "Anon can do anything he wants to anyone but they can't harm him" would be better for you.

Also, absolute freedom is impossible and wanting it insane. You can't be free from death, gravity or the ground for example, and I doubt you'd want to be free from life.

>>34413510
I am not forced to submit to them and I am free tobuild my own business without regulation. If I am capable enough I can use niches in the market to compete with them, which isn't possible with a state artifically manipulating competition.

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>>34412842
G A S

>>34412868
Until the corporate warlords enslave you with their McCoup^tm and force you to run on a McTreadmill^tm powering their McAIRobots^tm.

>>34413569
That's why TinEye is still a thing, right?

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>>34412842
The freer the market the freer the people mah nignogarillo

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>>34413596
Socialist cuck kys

>>34413569
>I am not forced to submit to them
because when a massive corporation which will have the means to raise a standing private army will tell you to do something you won't listen to them

>>34413561
Like I said, AnCapism is more of a tool, as it is more realizable than your mentioned scenario, which I would of course prefer. Philosophically speaking I definetly am more on the Stirner egoist side, but I also understand that nobody will submit willingly to me, that's why I need to ensure that nobody has the possibility to use his power against me.

How do ancap memers not realize that corporations will come to wield the same power as states and monopolize industries?

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Who here Fascist master-race?

Don't tell you faggots believe in the (((Ayn Rand))) AnCap degeneracy.

>>34413569
Without a state no one will exist to enforce ownership of your property. Even if you were to have mercenaries who you hired to guard your wealth they would just turn around and take it from you since they had the guns and you had the money. Also you could never start a business from scratch in that sort of environment because you would lake the money necessary to hire protection of your business before it could take off.

>>34413655
Without state interference that manipulates the market there won't exist absolute monoplies, as natural competition will take place.

>>34413427
It would have meant the US would have to compete with superior British steel in the 18th century and Britain would have had to compete with superior Indian steel in the 17th century. Instead Britain actually destroyed India's steel industry using its military imposed might, America broke away and then didn't allow them to do the same. We can argue hypotheticals but the fact is neither country pursued its comparative advantage during its developmental stage and used state power to protect and expand its markets. Most countries that developed followed the same path using state guaranteed markets and state protection to develop, the countries that didn't aren't full fledged economies but holding places for money to flow through (Singapore, Hong Kong) or disasters like Haiti.

>>34412842
>be me
>undergrad in uni
>freshman year
>took 1 economics class the first semester
>became totally convinced in the free market after the first two weeks of class

It's been 6 years, and one economics (previously philosophy) degree later, and still totally believe in the free market

>>34413680
Yes because I'm sure those already possessing huge sums of money and power will just love to let others encroach on their territory welcoming it as "healthy competition".

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>>34413662
No, I adhere to based Hoppe's teachings.

>>34413214
Or because they're a tax haven for the wealthy...

>>34413775
>tax haven
>low taxes
>low amount of state interference
That's what I said, faggot.

>>34413723
Natural monopolies are impossible. When a company gets so big that it eliminates its competitors, and begins to charge prices that are unjustifiable, it is at this exact moment that the consumer rejects the voluntary interaction, and all other depressed or newly startup companies become highly viable.

>>34413693
It's like someone who graduates from Pyongyang University in the subject of Juche Theory.

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>>34412842
I'm an anarcho feudalist :)

>>34412924
Corporations cannot own slaves in an ancap system, as all economic interactions happen voluntarily.

>>34413961
yes but the corporation will put down those competitors by force as it will be large to the point of being able to raise and finance a standing army effectively turning its customers into feudal serfs

>>34413116
Under crony capitalism, corporations are state backed. Corporations must be divided away from the state for capitalism in any form to succeed. Private gains, private losses. NOT private gains, socialized losses.

>>34414047
corporations will effectively become the state though

>>34414041
Not with a strict rule of law forbidding coercion, this is why an executive police force exists. At the very moment a corporation, or any economic venture attempts coercion, the system is no longer free market capitalism, because free market capitalism is defined by VOLUNTARY exchanges.

>>34413214
>let the wealthy of countries dump their assets (which were gained through crony capitalism in economies with heavy state interference) into their banks at low tax rates
not the best example

>>34414083
Without any public control or say. Just pure, unadulterated tyrannies. If you look at the modern corporation and have worked in one they are basically North Korea, but they don't have the power to murder you if you get out of line, yet.

>>34414083
Tyranny is always temporary, and any CEO smart enough to somehow overthrow the state government because it's become so massive should realize that to install a dictatorship with their power is to aign their own death sentence (revolutions, civil uprisings)

A strong judicial branch and executive police force is needed in ANY society to enforce laws.

>>34414098
which creates a need for a state thus no more anarchy

>>34414161
Yeah, I agree with you there, I'm not an anarcho capitalist. Libertarian here.

>>34414133
>yet
they already kill people who get out of line in the third world, it's only a matter of time before it becomes commonplace here

>>34414133
North Korea is a paper tiger. Without access to global trade and capitalistic ventures driving their economy, they are rotting from the inside. They're like a puffer fish, or an angry manlet that all talk and no fight.

>>34414182
oh ok, I thought you were an ancap anon

>>34414200
Likely, they used to do it here, like when Steel companies brought in Pinkertons to murder strikers and bash their brains in. That power got stolen from them or rather they found it wasn't in their interest to do it anymore.

>>34414222
I was just using it as a example of basically what corporations are. They share many features in their internal structure.

>>34414200
Any society that kills those who are "out of line" (subjective term) has a weak rule of law that economic ventures will recognize and avoid for their own private success. This is why the greatest European banks are located in Switzerland, which has a very low amount if government interference, and very loose social and economic control. Notice how few business ventures come out of Sub-Saharan Africa and the middle east (except for oil companies in the middle east, but thats solely due to location of the natural resource itself)

>>34414253
The saddest thing about all of it is that I feel there is no way to realistically fix it, it seems to me like it's human nature to just be scummy and step all over others for personal gain.

>>34413662
Ayn Rand was AnCap?

>>34414308
I wish people would understand that capitalism is not a zero-sum game. One venture does not truly benefit at its consumers' downfall. Value is CREATED under voluntary exchanges. When you buy an iPhone from Apple, you are trading something you value less for something you value more (the money for the iPhone). Apple on the other hand values your money more than they value the good that they produced. Result? Net increases in wealth and happiness overall.

>>34414308
The very sign that they can't do it anymore should be a cause for hope. That fact that there are still cooperative enterprises despite competition against state backed and protected corporate structures that continue to succeed should be another.

>>34414304
What about all the sweatshops in Southeast Asian shitholes? All the defense contractors who sell weapons to corrupt third world shitholes? The rush to privatize industries in shitholes that are falling apart?(such as Russia under Yeltsin)

>>34414359
Yes perhaps the happiness of the first world consumer increases (although I'd argue that most of the garbage sold to American consumers actually decreases the quality of their lives) but the poor bastard who worked as a slave to produce it some sweatshop surely isn't happy.

>>34414318
Ayn Rand was and is a joke.

Rightists are selfish and intelligent kikes

They use vague terms like freedom to describe their Jewish ideologies that would allow the earths capital to accumulate into the hands of one or several corporations

>>34414514
>if I can't force you and your family to work for me at gunpoint in my Mc'Shekelstein processing plant then I'm not free stupid goy

>>34414390
Either the workers work in sweatshops and can then afford food, or they don't and starve. I dont see your point. If people do not like their situation, they should move to coalesce to change it.

The selling of weapons to third world countries isnt illegal, and it shouldn't be. The use of them to kill unjustly oppressed civilians IS. They are not one in the same processes. You fix the process at fault, and its not the selling of the good which is immoral.

Privatized industries in the long run are much more effective than state backed industries ever could be. Henry Ford didnt revolutionize the automobile industry under influence of a government bureau; Einstein didnt create his theory of relativity that way either. The greatest changes are often the ones that spring from a person dedicating their own risk and effort, and then achieving recognition for the greatness they produce by fulfilling a value in a capitalistic system.

>>34414456
Read my first point in this post. Either the poor bastard doesnt work, and starves, or he works and is miserable but alive. Capitalistic systems allow that choice to be possible. He can put in the effort to change his future by learning and navigating the capitalistic system and by creating value for others, who in turn grant value to him (in the form of pay, goods, perks, services)

>>34414514
Step up your game. Weak.

>>34414514
All jews are leftists. Fuck off

>>34414600
Henry Ford would have been sucking dick for train fair if roads weren't created by the state.

>>34414600
the first world is arguably the reason as to why third world countries are in the state that they are
>sorry for bombing your country and bleeding it dry
>but, you can now work for me in my McSweatshop aren't you grateful?

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>>34414680
Problem being what they should engage more in the free market.

>>34414680
Humans originated from Africa, most of which is still a third world shithole. The people there have set up faulty systems which have weak rules of law that make for economic ventures impossible. That is why they are third world, nit because first world countries intentionally hold them under. I will agree with you that there has existed an obscene amount of international meddling by the US that needs to stop, but that is not to say the the capitalistic system itself is to blame. This meddling is the result of a state's arm reaching where it should not be.

>>34414673
Private road systems are possible. Ever pay a toll on a highway? Two or more independent ventures would agree to a system in which they both benefit by allowing consumers to cross over into different systems. More people would then drive on roads because they know they will be able to get somewhere.

The good thing is that Ancaps will never put their theory into practice, considering the wealthy like their nanny state and the workers will never give up their blood for their masters. So it'll always just be a theory proposed by crackpots, that gives me comfort.

>>34414803
They could have been developed but they haven't.

>>34412842
>ayncraps think they are anarchists.

Read Proudhon, faggots.

>>34414949
Actually they have.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_State_Route_267#Dulles_Greenway

One such example. Private road systems are quite common actually in places like Italy and Canada. These roads are usually much cleaner and well maintained also, because they are owned by a company trying to uphold an image, attract customers, and minimize losses.

>>34415012
"It's highway robbery. It's a disgrace. Everyone knows that these tolls are ripping people off and there's not much we can do about it."

Lol, now just imagine that spread out through the country. What a nightmare.

>>34415113
What's a nightmare is people not using their heads and using a different road when others are available, and then crying about it to a local congressman who also doesnt understand that capitalistic systems are based on CHOICE. If people really didnt like the tolls they paid, theyd go elsewhere, and the private highway would be FORCED to reduce their toll price or go out of business.

>>34415167
What's stopping these companies using cooperative effort to artificially keep the tolls high?

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>>34414047
>>34414098
>>34414152
>>34414222
>>34414304
>>34414359
>>34414600
>>34414803
>>34415012
>>34415167

its truly great watching this in action.
>Leftists BTFO

>>34415245
Lol ok. You're a joke.

>>34415236
Isnt it obvious? Then nobody would use those roads. Startup companies would instantly react to a need for lower price roads and these ventures would be viable from the start. As ive said before in this thread, natural monopolies are not only impossible, but also not even in the best interest for large corporations.

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>>34415280
>when they get mad and have no comebacks so they just hurl insults

How does it feel, truly?

>>34414803
but this meddling by the U.S. government was done at the behest of corporations who essentially control it, how is that not a product of capitalism?

>>34414651
who is Milton Friedman?

>>34415409
Crony capitalism is a corruption of capitalism that is unsustainable long-term. When business and state get in bed together in the short-sighted pursuit of short term gain, bad things happen. There needs to a clean dichotomy between state and the private sector.

Remember also that other states are their own entities and are not protected by an opposing states' laws. Why should they be? Should Somali's people be treated the same why as American citizens by the American state, when people in Somalia have nothing to do with the US? Do Iraqi militants, or even Iraqi citizens deserve the same treatment as American citizens during wartime?

That last point is mostly moot anyways. People are tired of paying taxes for wars they dont want and dont care to participate in. War itself is harmful to a capitalistic system, as it doesn't produce anything of value, its a necessary act that has to be employed when people fail to compromise. If you owned a company, you wouldnt want ti have to dedicate a good portion of your income to taxes needed to support a war. Its a waste.

>>34415575
>War itself is harmful to a capitalistic system
Not if you are a weapons contractor, an industry which has sadly become incredibly deeply rooted and influential in the US, you quite literally thrive off of human misery and the destruction of third world shitholes if you are involved in this sector.
>Crony capitalism is a corruption of capitalism that is unsustainable long-term
What is supposed to prevent it in a capitalist system?
>Do Iraqi militants, or even Iraqi citizens deserve the same treatment as American citizens during wartime?
The war should have never happened in the first place, it was a for profit proxy conflict.

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>>34413281
>that country?

yes

>>34415709
epik meme dude XDDDD
make sure to share it over at /r/thedonald XD

>>34415662
War is harmful to all the other ventures in the capitalistic system that AREN'T the weapons contractor. I'm agreeing with your idea that its a sad state of affairs that this sector has become entangled in the state. It should not be as I said before, there has to be a dichotomy between state and business. When this dichotomy is infringed, we have a word for it: corruption.
>What is supposed to prevent [crony capitalism] in a capitalist system?
You and me, and everyone who owns a business or doesn't, it doesn't matter so long as they oppose the war. Everyone needs to know their constitutional rights, and how the political system works so they can voice their displeasure to the maximum of their ability. Boycotts, unioning, and lobbying, even protesting can potentially all be highly effective tools that can cause real damage when aimed in the right way at a target.

>This war should have never happened
I agree

>>34415921
>War is harmful to all the other ventures in the capitalistic system that AREN'T the weapons contractor
I'd say that war is also very helpful to those in the business of extracting natural resources, it is surely cheaper to pay some local warlord using child soldiers as labor for minerals or oil than to deal with businessmen from a region that is stable. I also would like to ask what will happen to such businesses such as weapons contractors in a true capitalist system, will they be allowed to carry on even though it is clear that it is in their every interest to cause bloodshed? Also in regards to crony capitalism, what will stop corporations from assuming the roles of or at least garnering the same power as states?

>>34416127
The bottom line is that war is advantageous to few, while being a detriment to most members of the society.
>child soldiers
This is an involuntary infraction of the freedom of the children that has no place in the first place. A strong police force is needed to prevent this.

As I've said before in this thread, nothing is wrong with weapon contractors as an economic operation. The crime is not the selling of firearms. The crime is the unjust usage of those firearms. Correct the process that is wrong (i.e., how people use the tool, not the people who make the tool). Weapon contractors are not interested in causing bloodshed. They are interested in making good money. The bloodshed is a byproduct that their consumers produce. We don't punish sword companies. We punish murderers that choose to use swords in a certain way.

>What stops corporations from becoming too big to take over?
The people. Remember also that a corporation is really just a group of individuals with the same economic goal, and these people want to live in the healthiest environment possible, one wirh the highest quality of life. If a corporation would reach a point where it garnered enough power to overthrow the state, then it would be to their detriment to enact any laws that are economically unsustainable. Consumers and other ventures would move to a system free from these restraints, sapping the construct of its original source of power.

Also, any tyrannical rule is a fast way to sign your own death sentence, and usher in a decline of your state, as people will not stay suppressed long-term. They will revolt or leave the state.

>>34416578
> A strong police force is needed to prevent this
>The crime is not the selling of firearms. The crime is the unjust usage of those firearms.
This in turn creates the need for a strong and completely impartial government, such a government cannot exist. It is bound to become corrupted and involved in crony capitalism. Prove to me that a perfect separation of state and private enterprise is possible.
>these people want to live in the healthiest environment possible, one wirh the highest quality of life
Then explain why so many corporations today are screwing the planet over through pollution, maybe they are getting some kind of immediate gratification but they are giving future generations the shaft.In the past no matter how greedy some king or noble was, no matter how many people he slaughtered he couldn't fundamentally undermine the processes of the Earth's ecosystem. Sadly humanity has advanced technologically to a point were it is capable of turning this planet into a hellhole. While I realize that some people may be ethical what is going to stop some greedy bastards from creating mountains of filth and pollution in the name of cutting costs?