Happiness and the Illusion of Time

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>>34242884
Thanks for the quality post OP.

>>34242884
>thinking is a psychological disease that ends with the person destroying itself
Jeez boss, just stop having thoughts then. Some people can't control it.

>...struggling to survive, rather than just be

Great point and good post. There's no saving me because I already try and live as much as I can in the present. I can confirm that since I have mindfully done this I have indeed become much more happy and lighthearted. But what you say goes beyond just happiness. Nothing shakes my foundations now, there is just stillness, which is miles better than simple happiness. Similar to Ataraxia as Epicurus used it (google if you want more. Epicureanism itself is pretty based)

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this feels like a pseudo gondola thread

but true living in the past brings depression, caring too much about the future brings worry, something about having presents - old Chinese fortune cookie

>>34242884
the comfiness meme is a window into the happiness of present living

who could want more than being bundled in blankets living as a meme? only a fool could

>>34242884
time is a 100% psychological phenomenon. the combination of motion and memory.

>>34243870
You're welcome.

>>34244065
Most people can't control it, and that's the problem. Thought isn't inherently bad, but when left unchecked and out of control it is. If everyone could stop thinking for one moment in their life, something astounding would take place within them.

>>34244077
Sounds like serenity, I said happiness but I like to use the word contentment even though it's not quite correct. Maybe I'll use serenity from now on.

>>34244355
Post your gondolas if you want, and that fortune cookie was right.

>>34244455
Comfiness is a desire though and desire is brought about through time. Imagine not feeling like you need to attain anything, because you always have what you already want. Which is nothing but to be free of troubles, and troubles are brought about by thought, and thought always implies time.

>>34244493
Yes, motion and memory or as I say experience and memory, because motion is in itself time. But if you believe that time is 100% psychological, then it's possible to end time if you end the psyche. An occurrence that I say is not impossible. You can gaze into the timeless, as long as you aren't there.

>>34244641
>then it's possible to end time if you end the psyche.

It is. If there is no one around to experience time there is no time. Motion without memory is neither fast or slow.

Anyways it is besides the point. You cannot not experience time as long as your are conscious.

Where is the best place for robots to work? I'll never be able to put my mind at ease until I have income. It feels impossible, I made such poor decisions.

>>34244641
>Comfiness is a desire though and desire is brought about through time. Imagine not feeling like you need to attain anything, because you always have what you already want. Which is nothing but to be free of troubles, and troubles are brought about by thought, and thought always implies time.
this is where your argument is deeply flawed.

humans survive as we do because we have the capacity to plan ahead. you act like focusing on the future is strictly the wrong thing to do. life requires foresight and especially life in the modern world.

you can urge people to be content with what they have now but it's ridiculous to advise people to "live only in the moment" because this is how you create problems for yourself in the future. we must do things that we don't want to do. if we never considered the consequences of our actions, we would have no motivation to do anything but lay around.

if you are in school or working, you're focused on the future too and just playing pretend about "just being."

it's also dangerous to tell people that happiness is just a state of mind and that your problems are all in your head. attitude matters but so does reality. you wouldn't tell someone who is being eaten by a bear that it's just their perception making them unhappy. they could theoretically learn to be happy while being eaten but wouldn't it make more sense for them to try to get the fuck out of the bear's mouth? you tell someone they can be happy in any situation, you train them to do that and then they are always living a life where they convince themselves that they are happy because it would go against your ideas to work toward anything since you're already "eternally happy" in the present moment.

>>34244725
As long as you are thinking and feeling, time will go on. But it is possible to not think and to not feel at the same time and still exist as a living being. I call this state "total awareness". Where if the mind is completely empty, void of any thought or sensation, then all that's left of the mind is 'what is'. And that experience is a timeless one.

>>34244806
The poor decisions you've made are over. You can say "I would have done differently" but the fact of the matter is you didn't, and you have to accept that. At the time you used your best knowledge to make those decisions, and now you look back with new knowledge and it causes regret. What happened has happened and now it's over.

Now if I tell you what job to get and you get an income the problem is solved, but that won't solve all problems. You'll just desire something else afterwards, and that'll be a new problem. The object of the problem isn't the issue, it's that the mind has made it a problem. I'm not saying don't get a job, but why fuss over it? You can try and it'll happen when it happens, why worry over it when worry causes nothing but pain? In this present moment, you are alive and well are you not? Worrying about what could be is what prevents you from living now.

>>34242884
I dont care about the past present or future all i do is play dota and watch dota streams. Still want to be euthanised.

>>34245054
>Where if the mind is completely empty, void of any thought or sensation

How is this total awareness? Sounds like no awareness.

>>34245054
>Now if I tell you what job to get and you get an income the problem is solved, but that won't solve all problems.
of course you gloss over this.

some people have real problems to be dealt with even if you don't.

>>34245074
he's taking mindfulness and trying to advocate for it while not really understanding what it actually is. no human being can have an empty mind and there is no purpose to it anyway even if they could. he is suggesting the equivalent of nonexistence.

what the people who preach mindfulness are actually advocating is perfect awareness with as little active thought as possible. this means awareness of sensations, both positive and negative and awareness of thought, both positive and negative but a lack of conscious evaluation of these things and a lack of judgment. the goal is to experience without removing yourself from the observation of the world around you. immersing yourself in what you see, hear, smell, feel, taste but not telling yourself "i wish i was seeing/hearing/smelling/feeling/tasting this other thing," or other thoughts like this. you can think but you should not follow the train of thought and should bring focus back to what you are presently experiencing. it's life without a commentary or narrative.

it's useful and it's how certain meditation works but it's not a state of mind you're supposed to be in all the time.

>>34245219
I don't think you're supposed to anything.

>>34244900
You can think and plan ahead, but you have to do so with no expectation. If you expect things to go as you planned you will be deeply troubled when they don't, as they most often do. I'm not saying don't look to the future, just don't make your life around it. Don't base your life off of tomorrow, because you'll always be living for tomorrow instead of living now.

I'm not trying to condition contentment like we've all been conditioned to feel happiness, sadness, jealousy etc when certain life events occur. But when you accept that what happened in the past happened and nothing more, and you realize the future is completely an idealized projection when thought about, it won't worry you. Yes I need time if I am to make an appointment, but do I need time to be happy? or to love?

Living in the moment does not mean you have to be reckless. Recklessness is born of ignorance. You don't have to be ignorant to live in the present. Everyone should have integrity, of course. But that integrity is only shown when the time shows up.

If you have a job that requires certain knowledge, then you need thought. Of course. But most people who have jobs have an idea of 'becoming'. They use the present as a means to get elsewhere and aren't happy until they do so. It's the idea of becoming that creates unhappiness.

The person who is being eaten alive is in pain, there is no doubt about that. But the real issue is the fear of death is it not? Death has very little meaning, if it happens it happens.

It's not about teaching people to be happy, it's to just be happy. And this realization of happiness only hits you when you realize fear and sorrow are brought about by the idea of time, but if you see it's just an illusion then why would you be caught in it anymore?

>>34245246
>I don't think you're supposed to anything.
terrible response and you're wrong.

you're "supposed" to do whatever aids survival because otherwise you are dead. this is all that life is. we can't stop thinking all the time or we would not be able to survive.

>>34245423
It doesn't make any difference.

>>34245058
You're still unhappy for some reason. What is that reason?

>>34245074
Call it whatever you want. When you're not being aware of anything in particular, you can only be aware of what is.

>>34245115
I could have told him to get a job in a grocery store, but anybody can tell him that. I told him what other people won't tell him.

>>34245219
What you've said about mindfulness is indeed true, but I would say you should be in that state most of the time. Let 'autopilot' take over when it's needed. Other then that be constantly aware. Also you said an empty mind has no purpose, have you ever had a completely empty mind? You'll find it has great purpose.

>>34245246
I'd say that's jumping the gun, you're not meant to do anything. But can you be not anything? That is not a thing? Psychologically speaking.

>>34245423
If you're in a place you deem safe you can stop thinking for a moment and it won't hurt you. Yes it's true that survival is the point of evolution and that everything we ever do is about survival, but what purpose does surviving have? It doesn't have any. So why be a slave to survival? Why let human nature dictate what you should do?

>>34245317
>You don't have to be ignorant to live in the present.
yes, you do have to be ignorant to live in the present. this is why you had to include your exception in the OP (living in the past is bad, but learning from your mistakes is in the past is okay).

>If you have a job that requires certain knowledge, then you need thought. Of course. But most people who have jobs have an idea of 'becoming'. They use the present as a means to get elsewhere and aren't happy until they do so. It's the idea of becoming that creates unhappiness.
you're saying that we should not think about becoming though. so how will anyone ever be anything than what they already are? you should just say that we should have no attachments or expectations like the impossible buddhist garbage about ridding yourself of desire.

>fear and sorrow are brought about by the idea of time
tell this to a child who is being beaten. tell them that their fear and sorrow is just an idea and they would be better off accepting it and realizing that they are actually happy because bad things don't technically happen and things can only be interpreted as being bad.

your ideas are great for middle class people with no problems who feel depressed only about chasing social status and their lack of material possessions. for everyone else, it's easy to see why this is kind of bullshit.

>>34245454
>It doesn't make any difference.
if you want to die, sure. for the other 99% of the world it makes a difference.

>If you're in a place you deem safe
not everyone is. here comes your "i have an easy life so everyone must be unhappy because of meaningless things" point of view yet again.

>What you've said about mindfulness is indeed true, but I would say you should be in that state most of the time. Let 'autopilot' take over when it's needed. Other then that be constantly aware. Also you said an empty mind has no purpose, have you ever had a completely empty mind? You'll find it has great purpose.
i don't think you should ever be on autopilot. you should either be mindful or engaged in problem solving, in the ideal world.

you have never had a completely empty mind. this isn't real. it annoys the fuck out of me when people pretend it's possible. it is not.

>I could have told him to get a job in a grocery store, but anybody can tell him that. I told him what other people won't tell him.
you glossed over his real life problems to give him some meaningless pop-new-age advice. and this is because you're not here to help people but to prove to yourself that your point of view is valid and useful to you.

>>34245638
forgot to quote you in my replies >>34245502

and there is no purpose to an empty mind. n empty mind is a lack of consciousness. it's as good as being dead.

>>34245638
>for the other 99% of the world it makes a difference.

This also, makes no difference.

>>34245687
>This also, makes no difference.
yes, it makes no difference to you. i said that already.

now stop responding since it makes no difference.

>>34245734
It should not make a difference to you either.

>>34245818
>It should not make a difference to you either.
but i thought that i'm not supposed to do anything so there isn't anything i "should" do or feel.

if you're going to be like this, at least make sure your ideas have internal logical consistency.

>>34245868
I don't think there is a contradiction. Supposed to = as a requirement. Should = as a consequence of.

So if you consider it, it should not make a difference if I reply to you or not.

>>34245564
You could say if you live in a war torn country then you are never safe. But if a bomb was about to hit you it wouldn't matter what you're doing. Why not take a moment to discover what happens when the mind is empty? You say it's as good as being dead, but I'd ask again have you done it? Something tremendous takes place.

I'd say Buddha was right about ridding yourself of desire, but if you already understand that and disagree I won't go into it more.

In the case of the child being beaten, physical pain is a different matter from psychological pain. I can end all emotional suffering, but I can't end a stomach ache or a broken jaw. There is a difference here.

>>34245638
If you say it is impossible then it is already impossible.

If you live an egocentric life, you are on autopilot. You let your thoughts and feelings rule your life. There is no control or power over yourself. You're just driven by those two things.

I didn't come here for self validation. I came to inform others and have them check in their own experience. If you think what I'm saying is nonsense then don't listen to me. For those who will listen, I shall speak.

For our whole conversation there's been the notion that all has been well in my life, when anything couldn't be farther from the truth. However it was my perception of everything that made it so ugly. Problems still arise for me but I wouldn't call them problems, more like situations.

>>34245054
OK OP I'm buying your b.s. What should I read to learn about these ideas and putting these ideas into practice?

>>34245987
you're saying that there are no requirements (nothing you're "supposed to" do) which implies that consequences are irrelevant. a requirement is only a requirement because it ensures a particular outcomes. if the outcome doesn't matter then there can't be anything that anyone "should" do either.

>>34246009
>I can end all emotional suffering, but I can't end a stomach ache or a broken jaw.
the problem here is that emotional pain is caused by the physical act of being beaten

according to studies, the child feels an unconditional attachment to his parents. (humans feel this for other humans as well)

the emotional pain is caused because the bond of trust is broken

a child cannot undo his emotional pain, his brain isn't yet ready to process logic fully. he is emotionally driven.

adults have promenades with suppressing their hurt too. this leads to repressed feelings.

the cure for emotional pain as i know it, is to accept the pain, cry, talk about it with friends, express it by art, etc. this is the way the brain processes the emotional damage.

after this you can move on, and also you will get angry less. this way what you say can be achieved,

>>34246384
>adults have promenades
problems* (typo :D)

>>34246326
Usually when I make threads on similar topics I'm always asked if I've read "The Power of Now". I'm about halfway through the book and I'd recommend it. Read anything by Jiddu Krishnamurti, if you have the patience to listen to him talk for an hour watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7aLnJtZgyY&t=10s

>>34246384
I'd agree that the emotional pain stems from attachment. Anything and everything we feel 'attached' to can hurt us. But if we see this, then we can do one of two things. Not be attached to anything at all, or accept that whatever we are attached to will inevitably hurt us (children are always hurt by their parents one way or another, as well as vice versa)

And most pain people bring us comes from a contradiction in the image we had of that person. If you believed someone was nice and suddenly they hurt you, there is a grief that the image you had of them wasn't real. It's the creation of such images that brings the pain, and images are constructions of the past. Live a life where everything just is, don't create ideals or images is what I'm saying.

>>34246380

if you say you are supposed to do something it implies that you are required to do something by someone. but what you meant was that you couldn't do something and still survive.

and what I meant with should not make a difference was that if you were to consider if my replying was important you would come to be of the opinion that it was not. not that I require you to reach any particular opinion, it is simply what would happen.

so the should and the suppose are not the same in this case.

>>34246597
What you say looks well in theory, but it can create harm in practice. It misses some biological aspects we humans have.

First, studies have shown that excessive attachment is created by past traumas (such as having very little). Therefore these people, feel a compulsion to gather more and more.

If we do not have traumas, we have healthy attachment. If we lose something we loved, we feel hurt. This is something built in our species.

It is impossible to not attach to things, as this is a unconscious process. Children do this since they are young.

What you can do is detach yourself. Like keeping a distance from caring too much to avoid getting hurt.

The problem with this is that we unconsciously have feelings, and you are suppressing them. You won't be happy neither sad. You will look at things from a philosophical point of view. You won't have the emotions which give meaning to life: having friends, caring about others, etc.

You won't feel very strong, and as you said it, things will just be. It's a calming, but numb existence. If things are, why live. Nothing good will happen to us anyway.

The image we had for the person, is what we need in our society to function. If we are greedy, violent or crude, we will exploit each-other until we collapse as a civilization.

Emotional pain is a signal sent to us by our brains that something isn't good. The brain communicates to us that this rude behavior is dangerous.

We cannot stop being hurt by others' rudeness. This is the way our brain became. It's in-built.

We can choose to ignore the hurt, but if we aren't hurt by harmful behavior, we might stop trying to make it stop too. e will just ignore it as we exploit each-other.

It's similar to how people from poor countries have it. They are verbally abused by their bosses, and choose to ignore it. Therefore they will not call out the boss to stop doing this. Their only way is to numb themselves, they feel nothing, thus becoming a shell of a human.

>>34247368
I think you are better off being detached. To live under the yoke of circumstance is a truly horrid existence in my opinion.

>>34247485
With this sadly you also lose the good moments.

Also, we are not tied absolutely by our circumstances.

Pain exists, but you body has a natural way of processing it. Feeling hurt, crying, talking to friends, expressing feeling by art, etc.

After this the pain fades. The hurt is only a memory.

With time we learn not to get hurt at all. But this comes only after we accept our pain and process it.

By detaching/numbing ourselves we only keep it hidden in our unconscious mind.

As proof for this statement, I have the studies of psychologists and psychoanalysts.

They found in their patients whom were numbing themselves past memories of being hurt which were not processed and only denied.

>>34247368
Not building an image doesn't mean you have to be indifferent or actively denying. If you are indifferent or you deny then you are not facing reality. If you have subconscious feelings about something then you subconsciously build an image. But if you're aware of those feelings, which can happen if you're highly sensitive to yourself, then you are aware of the image. This awareness can take practice.

It is true that when someone we love dies we feel a loss, but death is inevitable to all of us so why should I weep about it? If I am weeping it's not for the other person, they are obviously dead and at peace. If I am weeping it is for myself, that "I" have suffered a great loss. And that is self pity, which is a totally destructive entity of the self.

I would say emotional pain happens when the self or identity is harmed. It sometimes see's itself as wrong or incorrect, or being attacked so it naturally shows pain. But when the self is not, that is you don't identify with your past anymore, this doesn't happen.

This also doesn't mean your life is completely void of positive emotions. On the contrary, since there is no inner conflict anymore struggle is done with and you yourself are at peace. Being at peace is a great feeling, it has eternal security and well being.

I hope I'm not coming across as attacking, I'm enjoying our discussion.

>>34247666
I've had experience of what you're talking about. Up until recently I couldn't let go of something an ex girlfriend had done to me. Not until I accepted that it had happened and was over did I get over it. But the whole notion was centered around 'me' and not her. I had built up an image of her and what she did completely shattered the image. Had I never had that image to start with, or had I not thought of it as concrete ie this is who she is, the pain never would have happened and I would have accepted it more readily.

>>34247666
I think it is just difficult to actually detach yourself.

If you are a tiger, and a rival tiger challenges you, you will respond to challenge with aggression or submission depending on the circumstances.

If I as a human get challenged by another human, unconsciously driven to challenge me to rise in a social hierarchy, I, unlike the tiger, have the capacity to view the situation from a perspective where the emotional response and the corresponding action is not triggered.

If I understand the other human, understand his motivation, I will as a result feel compassion for him and I will not take personal offense. In this case, detachment would not be me ignoring my emotions, but me perceiving the situation in such a manner that the emotions did not occur, and if they did, could easily be discarded as foolish.

>>34242884
So you are saying if you think past you get depressed and if you think future you get anxious. Am I right OP?

>>34247987
To sum it up in a few words, yes. But both are illusions of the mind. The projected future rarely turns out how you perceive it will, and if it does you're always there in the moment to deal with it if you have to. The worrying is unnecessary. The past is over and nothing to dwell on, because nothing good comes out of that either.

We should all just realize we're here and now, because our whole life is lived in the here and now, you can't live in the past and you can't live in the future.

>>34248088
I think what sets humans apart from other animals is in part that we do not live in immediacy. It is a powerful tool to be able to reflect on past and future.

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>>34248088
Can I ask one more thing? So the thing is if I focus on present too much, i feel like a caveman, and it does not make me happy. I have to plan everything otherwise I can't do shit. I am not worried about past tbqh. So how to be happy and hype without having plans? That stress and little bit anxiety move me forward all the time.

>>34248181
Not OP but I'd like to try and answer.
It's moves you forward but at what cost ?
What's the point of going forward, being happy ? Why couldn't you be happy in the present rather than dreaming and dreaming about a better life in the future ? Most of the time that futures only arrives when you get old, age at which you can't enjoy things the way you could have enjoyed them in the past. The key here is to plan a little bit ahead so that you don't live like a hobo/caveman but close enough in time so that you get to see the result of your hard work.

>>34248141
It is a powerful and special tool, but that's just it. It should only be a tool that we choose to use when needed. It shouldn't dominate our lives like it does for so many, who dwell on the past all the time or are never happy because they always want more. It should be used as needed, not continuously never ending.

>>34248181
Being in the present doesn't mean be spontaneous or anything like that. You can still have plans, physical time is needed in order to make plans. But stress and anxiety come from the idea of "what might go wrong?" and those ideas do nothing to aid you. They only hinder you. When the time comes for you to actually do those things, then that will be the current present moment and you will know what to do then. To be happy now you just have to see that life is a wondrous thing, not a burden filled with sorrows and anxieties which is born of the past and future. But that the fact you're alive and sitting at a computer or on your phone is enough to make you thankful that you were born. There has to be joy in just being. But that joy comes out of the present. It's not the idea "things could be worse" but that even if things were still worse you could still feel joy.

Still make plans, but don't get hype about them. They'll be what they'll be. If you're always striving for more you'll never be happy. You have to be able to say "I am content, even if I had nothing because I exist." Which is a very hard thing to try to teach people. But it has to do with the present.

>>34248416
>>34248378
Thank you anons, need to think a lot.