For real, what's wrong with Socialism? >inb4 USSR and

It creates a system that disincentives achievement by punishing success and rewarding failure.

>>94398272
It takes no interest in the people.

National Socialism, however, does.

Forced or Coerced Altruistic Sacrifice of the Individual in the name of the Greater Good of the Collective.

In an ideal world?

Nothing.

But people and circumstances aren't ideal, and capitalism requires less active intervention, as long as you have strong regulation.

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>>94398272
It's creates a deeply dysfunctional society.
>the state can't give a man dignity

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>>94398778
Pure ideology. How do you get better circumstances if you don't try to achieve them yourself? The French revolutionaries didn't care that "circumstances weren't ideal" and the entire world order was against them.

>>94398272
Ignoring many non-Stalinist socialist systems? Because they were such a success weren't they

>>94399670
And even the French revolution then ended up with an emperor.

>>94399098
>picture of a reformist socialist

>>94398272
>For real, what's wrong with Socialism?
See: Venezuela

>>94399098
>picture of socialist

>>94398272
It's worshipped by millenial faggots and lefty SJWs

Yugoslavia wasn't real socialism. Socialism is a global mode of production wherein production is planned scientifically following the principle of "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs". No money, no states.

Jebiga bato, ako te socijalizam stvarno zanima onda ti mogu samo preporuciti da citas malo Marksa i da se okanis staroga Broza. Jer razlika izmedju njega i Staljina je bila minimalna.

>>94398272
KILL COMMUNIST SCUM

>>94398272

Did you enjoy tito?

Nothing's wrong with socialism. If everyone was a hard working, intelligent and ambitious socialism would be a flawless system. The problem is that most of society is content with enjoying the fruits of the labour of others instead of seeing social programs as merely a safety net.

tldr if society was comprised entirely of classically liberal white men socialism would be great

>>94398272

You run out of other people's money.

>>94398559

come in boysss

>>94398424
>rewarding failure
like failing in keeping the crazies of the street and getting them the care they need instead of them collecting cans for their next bottle of booze?
And wtf is succes anyway? Getting rich beyond the limit of what anyone can spend in 10 lifetimes? That Soros fag is a perfect example of what one can and apperently will do when society cares not about limiting the power of any individual, in this example monetary power.
Both socialism and capitalism have their flaws, but don't give me that retarded shite m80.

>>94398272

Reminder that Tito's regime was propped up by billions of dollars in US aid.

In the 1950s alone he got over $40,000,000,000 from US (adjusting for inflation)

>>94398424
nice meme

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>>94400073

>>94398272
Socialism is a word. Do things, not words.

>>94398272
Nothing.

it doesnt work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jqv1out48E4

Socialism works until you run out of other people's money. You'll see this in effect when all the hard-working, tax-paying Germans flee Germany and the migrants start getting mad because no gibs.

>>94400835
Not an argument.
>>94400929
That's an irrelevant argument. It's like saying the problem with speaking French is that you eventually run out of flip flops.

>>94401140

>I've never worked with insane people

They don't want your help, they take the pills until you stop watching.

Not all people but enough.

>>94401543
So the main problem with it is a completely unrelated action made by someone who wanted to ruin the country and its people on purpose?

yugoslavia was a communist/capitalist mix tho...

Socialism works until all of next generation chose to be construction workers because muh stronk proletariat.

So people start doing nothing until they starve to death bc there is no housing need left and then the coup takes over.

>>94398272

You mean, besides the fact that it has failed everywhere, leaving ruin in its wake?

>>94401718
if people lie about you are you going to take it or are you going to do something to stop it?

>>94400697
Uhh, no, that's pretty much the idea of communism as a utopian system achieved after socialism.

Socialism = democratic control over the means of production, worker cooperatives and so on. It would be international though since nationalism goes against the basic principles of socialism.

>>94401718
No, it's what socialism does. What's the point of becoming a doctor when a street sweeper earns just as much as you do? Why work hard to better yourself and your family when your masters have the right to take your belongings and redistribute them as they see fit? Socialism will never work, or at least never in the way it's supposed to. It looks nice on paper, but the reality is different. That's why there's not a society to date that has successful communism.

>>94402303
the distinction between socialism and communism is something Lenin came up with and Stalin fleshed out.
Democratic control over the means of production and coops are already possible within capitalism. The main distinction between socialism/communism and capitalism is the fact that in socialism/communism no "value" (let's just say money for the sake of simplicity) is produced. There is no money to mediate production, things are produced for need and not for exchange.

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having a house i dont have to pay rent on is pretty dope, thanks TI TO

>>94402679
>What's the point of becoming a doctor
Well, you see, before people were brainwashed into thinking that nothing they do matters, only the money they get from it does, different people had different interests, proclivities, capabilities, and characters.

It's hard to imagine in this world where everyone is pretty much a carbon copy of each other and the only things that matter in life are what you look like on a uniform 1-10 scale, and how much money you have. But I promise you, humans can be better than that.

>>94402794
>the distinction between socialism and communism is something Lenin came up with and Stalin fleshed out.
ps: It's not something that follows out of Marx's logic laid out in the analysis of capitalism. There is no mode of production "in between" capitalism and communism; only the transitional period of the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.

>>94398272
It all boils down to information flow. Socialism decreases the efficiency of information flow between humans. Wrong or not up to date information leads to less efficient use of resources.

This being said, socialism can work, but everyone will be worse of regarding material well being.

>>94401675
Fuck them not wanting help, that is in those cases not their choice anymore.
They need to be kept of the streets to remove the hazard they are to the rest of us, but you need long term healthcare for that, something easily achievable with the most basic form of socialist healthcare.

>>94403038
I like how you dodged everything else I had to say.

>>94398272

Anyone here who fucking posts and asks about what's wrong with socialism isn't looking for a legitimate answer and furthermore just reveals how retarded OP is and their terrible understanding of how evil socialism really is.

Sage for effect.

>>94403222
I "dodged" the other things because they're the same in capitalism. Do you think your masters don't have the exact same rights at this very second?

>>94398272
Cuz people are fucking lazy. Who wants to work to feed and House others who dont work.? Socialist society benefits no one other then the greed of Government who embellishes most of the money anyhow.

>>94403150
>Fuck them not wanting help, that is in those cases not their choice anymore.

Messiah complex much? topkek

>>94403038
ya ok professor good luck imposing that utopian belief on an entire nation of peoples. see what happens heheh you'll either get taken down or you'll take down the opposition. most socialist/communist empires end up in this scenario. read a history book idiot

>>94403349
socialism is the return of humanity to its species-being. If anything, it's the completion of the enlightenment.

>>94403754
((((You))))

>>94403671
I don't know. Look at your own country and what utopian (or rather dystopian) beliefs have been imposed on your people, and how quickly. Do you think it only works with "bad" beliefs?

And most empires end up the same way eventually, don't they.

>>94403971
The dystopian ideologies being spread and imposed on my country ARE socialist ideologies, you inbred piece of shit. case in point.

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>>94398427
The only good thing from this recent descent back towards socialism and the West's degeneration is the possibility of pivot towards National Socialism. As - outside of a collapse economically - its approaching a point of no return and humanities future with it.

>tfw a billion years into the future it'll be rats or some other evolved branch of a primative species today that will travel space

>>94398272
press OAKKE in the internet. Pro-EU anti Soviet commies.

>>94403609
Wat? So you'd rather have a bunch of alcoholics and drug addict roaming the streets than getting them of the streets into healthcare (which they need) cleaning up the streets in the process?
No wonder Germoney is fucked.

>>94403970
meme

>>94404236
Germany is fucked because of the socialist EU that is controlling them. Once again, case in point retard.

>>94403038
>humans can be better than that.
except that they can't

>>94404075
Yes, war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength. Don't be silly.

>>94404075
if you think Hildog's a socialist I got bad news for u phamilia.

>Le maralla Tita was a pure commie meme
He was the biggest nationalist, though
His policies were clearly different

>>94404397
>Croatia
You, a foreigner, know more than I, a US citizen, about what kind of ideologies are spreading in the current generation of US citizens. Ok

>>94404439
this

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>>94398272
OUT

>>94404678
Just as you (if you bothered to look) would know more about what kind of ideologies your NGOs have been spreading in the current generation of my countrymen, than they probably realize.

>>94404500
I think most foreigners just think of the typical caricature of Stalin when anything communism/socialism-related is mentioned, and have no idea what had been attempted in the ex-Yugoslavia.

>>94402794
Your mistake is in taking Marx as the only authority on what socialism means. Marx and Engels were incredible thinkers, but they didn't invent the idea of socialism, and there are types quite distinct from Marxism.

The religious orthodoxy known as Marxism-Leninism is probably the worst thing that happened to socialist theory,
Capitalists don't take Adam Smith as the only economist worth reading, so we should adapt to all the new social realities as well.

>>94398272
The government taxes you to death and controls every aspect of your life
>an entrepreneur from Finland

Socialism is pretty good when implemented in a national manner, if you know what I mean

>>94398272
It's subsidizing failure, which has a disgenic effect on a society.

>>94398272
>Tito
The reason why Yugoslavia collapsed was because without a strong authoritarian like Tito holding the country together, there was no one keeping all the ethnicities from killing each other. He's a prime example of the strong authoritarian holding an improbable shitshow together. His particular brand of "Market Socialism" isn't necessarily why Yugoslavia stayed together as long as it did.

>>94405079
Socialism is something that follows out of the analysis of capitalism. If capitalism and socialism are two distinct things than it definitely breaks with whatever capitalism is. So in order to find out what socialism looks like we first have analyize capitalism which is subject to scientific inquiries. Marx, Engels and their successors obviously aren't the only authorities on what socialism means but their work on capitalism & socialism is the most comprehensive and scientific critical theory of society and unless someone comes up with something that's even better in explaining society I'll gladly stick to marxism.

i like socialsm,

its very hard to become very rich

and its also very hard to become very poor

>>94405310
haha ya man NatSoc general right this way please

>>94398272

Socialism rewards immoral attitudes
It rewards working slowly, stealing, doing stuff under radar of government

Why would you be hardworking and educated, if you are going to get more if you steal or do things illegally?

>>94399670

The problem is that this idealness you want to achieve always involves lying, spying, war, murder, and violent revolution.

The ends don't justify the means.

>>94406048
>Capitalism rewards immoral attitudes
>It rewards working slowly, stealing, doing stuff under radar of government
>
>Why would you be hardworking and educated, if you are going to get more if you steal or do things illegally?

>>94406070
>his idealness you want to achieve always involves lying, spying, war, murder, and violent revolution.
Unironically posted by an American.

Because like it or not, human beings are primarily motivated by self interest, not interest of a collective. Which is why the systems created by socialism end up being exploited by individuals

If there was not a "socialist" government here "distributing wealth" everyone here would be literal slaves to a dozen land owners / fishing kings who would gather all the wealth immediately, choking the economy. Like it was a few hundred years ago here, before democracy.

Foreigners call our current government socialists, most people here consider it a neoliberal government in the pockets of the fishing industry and big business in general.

>>94398272
Found the poor fag who's never worked hard just so the government can steal his money.

>>94406265
Capitalism?

Yes, go sign to the ruling party, so you can get things nobody can get, because they get everything equally

Why should nuclear physicists earn the same as garbage man or janitor?

>>94406343

Yes, this is the beauty of socialism: we had to sink to your level to combat your shit and now we're all swallowing these fucking poison pills like idiots instead of dealing honestly with each other.

>>94406876

Tbh most nuclear physicists love their work and wouldn't mind earning less if they had the opportunity to pursue their work while still having a family and security.

>>94398272
I like to be able to buy food.

>>94398272

Socialism is a meme. It always leads to corruption, totalitarianism and the destruction of industry. People only act in their self interest. If you take away the financial incentives, nobody will be willing to work the hard jobs.

>>94405049
Slayed

>>94398424
fpbp

Why do anything or work hard when you have just as much as the faggot across the street who doesn't work or do shit?

Na. Fuck you and fuck your bills you faggot.

>>94406876
>Capitalism?
>
>Yes, go sign to the ruling party, so you can get things nobody can get,
Feel free to ask your friends who have good paying jobs how they got them. If you have friends good enough that they'll admit it to you.

Nothing so long as it's of the NATIONAL variety.

>>94398272
Nothing if you're a homeless bum who already had nothing to begin with socialism is perfect.

>>94407800

Explain to me how something like a car factory would work under socialism? Who works there, how much they get paid, whose in charge, who decides how long the hours are.

>the free market will fix everything!
>why give workers rights? You need an incentive so millions of people should live in poverty
>capitalism is human nature because I said so

/pol/ economics summarized desu
Why is everyone here so retarded?

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>For real, what's wrong with Socialism?

Just look at Brazil.

>>94398272
>many non-stalinist socialist systems in the 20th century

How many of them actually work, though? Venezuela is currently eating trash to survive.

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>>94399670
>Pure ideology.
fuck off slavoj

>>94398272
Everything in theory is limited by the real world and how accurately the theory represents the real world. A theory that is fundamentally at odds with the real world is a shit theory. There is a time-lag between implementing theory and theory being proven shit - if you came up with a theory that water is toxic, there's a 2 day lag before you have to drink water without dying of thirst. Here are some problems with Socialism-as-prescribed-by-Marx :

>1 : No Blueprint

It's a theory that should accurately represent the world, meaning it should predict what happens. Marx said "this will happen" and not "I will make this happen" - kinda like how a meteorologist reads the forecast, he's not making it rain physically. Since the theory of a communist government (as opposed to critique of capitalism) is very very vague, and based on certain principles that are not very truthful, there is nothing to physically - no blueprint on how to run a Commie government. Marx believed that it will happen, and that it was the scientific law, kinda like motions of the stars, and was philosophically opposed to any form of talking about that kind of stuff. Blame Hegel who viewed human history as World-Spirit trying to reincarnate himself while overcoming various inherent contradictions and dichotomies. Marxy is just materialistic export of that with WS working on class relations of material economy unlike some vague hippy stuff. So there is no True Real Socialism to implement. The benefit of this is that there is no True Real Socialism to critique.

>>94408090
That's actually a problem with violent revolutions in undeveloped countries, not socialism as such.

If you want an ex-Yu example, the communist party was full of people who have literally never even worn shoes, who suddenly went into cities, and were put on actual important functions because they were good at slaughtering people a mere few weeks or months ago, and had to be taken seriously as political and worse yet cultural figures.

>>94407800
Yes you can always ask a friend for a job
If you bring loses then it's his loss
It's his responsibility to make profits, if he fails because of you then he made bad choice

Now tell me how fucking leeching on the whole country is a good
Who takes responsibility?
No one
As always in socialism
It's nobody's fault

Go back to your la-la-land

>>94398272
My grandpa had 40 acres of land with 40-50 employees and around 30 seasonal. The state took all of it.

30 years after the regime is dead, it still belongs to ex-commies that ruled during the time.

I live in a small apartment build by the state and have no land of my own, nor money or anything to buy one.

This is what is wrong.

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>>94398272
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism

>What's wrong with socialism goys?
>BTW you totally can't mention how it has failed in every single instance it was every tried because that's not fair

It has no way of tracking it's own efficiency in manufacturing, development, or delivery of items to those who need them, and thus will always be out competed by a capitalist system.

This is just one of many glaring problems within community is that has never been addressed by its proponents.

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>>94398272
ITT people who were born after Yugoslavia broke appart but keep saying it was good to live there even though they werent alive to know it
instead they believe someones naturally exaggerated childhood stories
ITT people who think socialism is great because every man can own a really shitty
locally produced car that is basically a laughing stock and can buy 5 shit brands of food which taste like the exact same shit because
they are actually made by the same factory but rebranded to make it sound like you got a big industry thing going on
ITT people who think the whole ''after you finish college you have a workplace already waiting for you'' thing
was exactly how it sounds

you dumb kids have to stop

>>94408620

You currently live in a capitalist country. The only thing stopping you from getting your own 40 acres and 40-50 employees is your unwillingness to put in the hard work.

>>94408380
workers should have rights, every ppl should, as long as its citizen of the country.

the thing is, the free market is also good, and commies are bad.

All the ppl I know irl, that like/love the red are from poor families or actual bastards without bloodline.

>>94408768
>tatin sin
opiniondiscarded.jpg

>>94408489


>2 : False concept of class

The liberal idea is of socio-economic class, meaning that economic conditions create social conditions that shape a group. However, this is patently false. It is social and cultural relations that define class conscioussness, and not economic conditions. Case in point are problematic voting patterns of poor Whites in USA - who consistently vote R despite D being more open to gibsmedat. Another case in point are Trump and Duerte. Trump is a rich guy who puts his name on everything, and is defacto an aristocrat. However, because his own unique talking mannerism (he talks like lower classes do, who are more oral than written, and you cannot punctuate his speeches, google Nydwracu's take on this) he culturally imitates lower class whites while being economically distant from them. And cultural conditions create more social cohesions than economic ones. There's a reason Lenininst heresy appeared and Marx has a concept of Lumpenproletariat - because some proles would rather be used as pawns as nationalists, instead of socialists.

>>94408939
>workers should have rights
>free market is also good
Pick one.

>>94408900
But I do, britfriendo, I actually work 2 jobs and make some software stuff on the side for some extra-extra cash.

However, 40 acres now cost way more than 20 years ago, and I do want to take back what is rightfully mine.

>>94398272
It works alright, but only when accompanied by strong nationalism in pure white countries run by men.
You probably didn't want to hesr this answer.
But this is the truth.
Ok.
It's true.
Believe me.
Ok.

>>94408768

My dad is Serbian. He hates America and by extension picked up an insane hatred of capitalism.
I love that he swears up and down that everything was better back in the days of Yugoslavia, but he bailed at 16, moved to Italy and never went back.

>capitalism is shit tho I swear son

>>94409074

>3 : No tested theory

You cannot build a society from scratch anymore than you can simulate a human brain - we cannot even simulate a tapeworm ganglia, for example. The traditional society is an evolutionary stable strategy, tested by time and found prosperous. The problem with "RIP APART EVERYTHING" of young disfranchised males and their (((handlers))) perspective is that some institutions are there for a reason. Imagine finding a fence on the field, and you RIP IT ALL APART. Don't be surprised if you get gored by a bull.

>>94398272
>Socialism
gangrene

>>94408650
>Jewish Bolshevism, also known as Judeo-Bolshevism, is an antisemitic canard

wow I never knew!

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>>94398272
Because it doesn't work

>>94398272
It suppresses the individual spirit and turns people into state zombies. It's a Satanic plot to steal your soul.

>>94403038

You seriously believe I would bust my ass all day dealing with boring banking business logic and setting up complicated IT systems with full accountability if and when they fail, if I could earn the same amount delivering mail and not giving a fuck about anything?

You're either incredibly utopistic or retarded.

>>94409531

>4 : Unprincipled exceptions

Being a faulty position by default, it must operate on series of unprincipled exceptions, that is, a set of imperatives that are not-explicitly liberal (but often implicitly-illiberal) that liberals use to escape the harmful consequences of liberalism without fundamentally questioning it. Socialism is no different.

Take for example, the role of marriage. Marx and E thought to do away with the institutions of marriage and family. Bolsheviks did that. You can read on Wiki that they did away with no-fault divorce (and even that they did not penalize men with alimony and childsupport). The consequences were disastrous. Men divorced older women and chased young girls. Women, who'd rather share a high status man than have a lower status one for herself, did just that. A disbalance of men and women happened, some men getting up to 20 women, some getting none. The Pareto Principle in full action. Result was that degeneracy and alternative lifestyles were embraced by lower status men to escape the implications of their own failing with women - "oh no, I'm gay/trans/asexual, that's why I don't get pussy, not cause I'm a lower status being and thus trash in their eyes". Another part of those men went full beta-rage. However, women by themselves, without support of men, are largely useless and stupid. They do not do jobs men do, that are critical to society. And without men to support them (either through state or through marriage), they fail hard. And they themselves are not attracted to men who support them, a paradox of female's suicidal sexuality gets to them when they're replaced by a younger model. By definition, a higher status man does not emotionally invest - and without wife googles, nothing there to chain a man to a nagging wife. To make matters worse, children of single mothers are worse in everything, as women are incapable of doing even that.

>>94410399
Why don't you do what you love, then?

Who is forcing you to do things that you hate and why?

Surely in capitalism you could just be self-employed at anything you like to do, and if you're competent enough, earn the same amount of money.

Socialism ruins opportunity.

>>94410625

The salvation came in Uncle Joe (Stalin), who criminalized abortion and homosexuality, restored what was for all purposes a traditional model of family, and killed everyone who would say otherwise (which is why Commies had no social science in lieu of today's gender theory). Similar to what Hitler did.

Today, there is a much bigger safety net in USA for feminism to fail hard and instantly, and EU is basically a cultural colony of USA. Back then, Commies panicked and ended up doing a what Church did. That's why you'll occasionally run into commie apologists who are "I support manly macho men like Castro and Stalin, put women back into kitchen and gas the kike".

>>94409520
same people who say yugoslavia and socialism are great and what not are the same people that are the first to leave this place for a life in western capitalism
just like when yugoslavias borders openned for people to get work visas and go to a job in germany
i remember the flood of people and the hype for signing up because they all knew this was a shithole, just like when we also started mass importation of foreign food and our food industry recieved a huge shock because our food choices were really basic and half as good as foreign made foods and people were tired of it
socialism sounds great on paper but is too idealistic to ever work in practice

>>94411322
>and half as good as foreign made foods
And now they're ten times better, right?

>>94410684

I don't hate my job, and I never implied it.
But it's not all fun and games either.

Why do I do it? You seriously can't imagine the reason?
I do it because it offers concrete career advancement opportunities and a good salary.
Friendly reminder that money = freedom, and nobody likes not being free.

Still, it's much more stressful and demanding than low level jobs like mail delivery or stocking shelves, and if it offered nothing more than that kind of job, I would certainly not do it.

I'd just fuck around with computers in my free time like I did before getting a job.

>>94398272

Weak minded leftypol go home. You wont find your father who left you at age 3 here.

Go be a pussy somewhere else. let me know when you manned up and finally grew a pair.

>>94411079
>5 : A sucky economics

Economy is inherently an anti-inductive science. The more you understand it, the less it is applicable to theory. Imagine a stock market that goes low on Tuesday. Everyone hears that, and rushes to buy on Tuesday. However, since everyone is buying en masse on Tuesday, stocks grow up in price because they are by default in higher demand.

Fundamentally, the problem is the allocation of resources. Under free market, the allocation is darwinistic, where different factories compete for the same resource, and the one more capable of getting it gets it. Because A is profitable and B is not, A has more money to accumulate a resource X, and B now has to shore up more for X (because A wants it too) and it likely fails.

In a planned economy, the system is rigid and inflexible. and a resource for A doesn't get to A. There is a myriad of stories where factory A got too much timber (was more productive on a day) while a farm B didn't get enough of it. The timber just rots in A, and they cannot sell it to B cause that is capitalism.

>>94411563
>money = freedom
But anon, freedom is a basic natural right of a human being.

So if you don't like your job more than you like delivering mail, why would you deliver mail instead?

Could it perhaps be that someone is forcing you to do it after all, by rewarding you with a rather dubious sense of freedom that you should have by default anyway?

>>94409133
If that was true we'd have much more angry workers here...

>>94409737
Anything painting them negative them is Anti-Semtism

>>94411838
>a resource for A doesn't get to A.
Meanwhile, in glorious capitalism, resources are both deliberately and accidentally wasted en masse every single day, including vital resources needed for human survival, such as food, that poor people are forced to watch rot through a wire fence while they starve to death on the other side.

>>94411838
>6: Ideological colonization of science

Certain ideologies are more or less fungible to science. Think of it like a Catholic dogmas - there are things against it, for it, and unrelated to it. A Catholic doesn't care if Mary had blond or red hair, but if a certain denomination of Christcucks thought she was a full blooded negro, their denomination fails when the DNA tests come back in (or just logic it away).

Commie theory is at odds with economy, as outlined in 5, but is also more odds at any hint of anti-proletariat science, which includes genetics and evolution. Lysenkoism is a known example, where anti-Darwinian measures in biology lead to Soviets to losing all genetics (a big fucking thing) and starving by millions. The consequences are disastrous.

>>94398272
>non-stalinist socialist systems
u wot m8

how can you impose a ~90% tax without Gulag?

>>94398272
Human nature. We are too egoistic to sustain other people. It will never work.

>>94412235
Except that this is just what I was talking about in 1. It did not happen. Starvation in capitalist West was exceedingly rare, while abundant in communist Utopia. Even today, the best countries to live in (bar their current insanity of cryptocommunism) are those who embraced cold capitalism, while socialism (who got its perks by supposedly being "for the people") was so fucking inhumane that it had to evolve a strain called "socialism with human face".

Tito himself was supported only by Western credit, which he used to advance the proletariat of Yugoslavia by cruising on his yacht with bitches. No waste of resources there.

>>94412346
What number is this going to go to? I meant to provide examples from AMERICA FUCK YEAH that are literally the same. Or if you want Singapore or any other "capitalist utopia". But it seems you'll be posting this forever.

>>94398272
please explain why i have to work for some nigger who doesn't want to go out and get a job

>>94403150
>They need to be kept of the streets to remove the hazard they are to the rest of us
But lazy socialists are doing hazard to us, should they be taken off the streets?
>>94403038
>much a carbon copy of each other
Socialism does that, doesnt it?
>different people had different interests, proclivities, capabilities, and characters
And Socialism doesnt take that in to account.
>>94408380
Under todays capitalism, they have better rights, than ever in socialism.
In USSR millions people literally stopped living in poverty - if you know what i mean.
>>94408541
B-but hes in need! You have to do things for him, because you can! Its only human to make errors! Who cares of the expenses - they are "just" money - you wi... i mean we will cover them with more work!


>why give workers rights?

>>94411503
no but thanks to 70 years of this shit
today we dont have the industry that can compete with popular demands and we are decades away from even attempting to properly compete in the field with the rest of the world

And the reasons why Communism fails horribly are outlined here :

>>94408489
>>94409074
>>94409531
>>94410625
>>94411838
>>94412346
>1: No Blueprint
>2 : False Concept of Class
>3: No Tested Theory
>4: Unprincipled Exceptions
>5: A Sucky Economics
>6: Ideological Colonization of Science

And there is more, but I am tired and will go to sleep soon.

>>>94412738
All done now.

>>94411838
>anon believes you can calculate an economy into success

and opinion is dropped.

>>94411932

>But anon, freedom is a basic natural right of a human being.

Freedom to do what?

Enough money grants you the freedom to do pretty much anything.

Freedom to own that cabin innawoods you always wanted after seeing it in a /comfy/ thread.
Freedom to take a vacation to the other side of the world whenever you feel like it.
Freedom to own a nice car.
Freedom to change your phone every 6 months, or to not do that.
Freedom to eat some really great food at a fancy restaurant.

Do you honestly believe that EVERY SINGLE PERSON should have this much freedom "as a basic natural right"?
You do realize that it would be completely impossible to give everyone an upper class lifestyle, right?
Who would repair roads if everyone could afford to stop working whenever they feel like it?
Who would keep the power grid up?

>Could it perhaps be that someone is forcing you to do it after all

No, no one is forcing me to do anything.
If I wanted to switch to delivering mail tomorrow I could, but it is incredibly naive to expect the same compensation for a job that could be done by a 10 years old kid if it weren't illegal.

They say capitalism is retarded because it is based on an axiom of infinite growth.

Well, socialism is retarded because it is based on the axiom that we ALREADY HAVE infinite resources.

>>94411079
>>94410625
>>94409531
>>94409074
>>94408489
Just giving you some (You)'s as no one else does.

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>>94398272
Basically, people serve their own interests over the common good. This means that the system is very prone to abuse as well as deincentivizing improvement in the workplace (many people barely feel attachment to their job). Capitalism, for the most part, lets this selfishness work for the people rather than against it. Pic related is rather cringe but summarizes it decently.

>>94413230
Uh, no I don't. In fact, I am explicitly opposed to that. You cannot calculate an economy into success. It's why Planned Economy fails.

>>94413359
That's nice of you, but I don't really care. I'm just writing this to articulate my own opinions and cause I'm bored.

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>>94413366
Two can play at the stupid meme image game

>>94412722
Let me guess, you only count rich countries as "capitalist".

Here are the actual figures:

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2010/03/19/which-starves-more-people-capitalism-or-communism/

>>94412935
>>much a carbon copy of each other
>Socialism does that, doesnt it?
Communism does, and all authoritarian rule over too many people at once does. Because people are obviously much easier to govern in lumps instead individually, so you come to these dehumanizing shortcuts where you turn people into these amorphous blobs.

For an example of this, look at how people have been polarized in America, where if you support one political party, you're supposed to hold this one exact set of opinions, and if you support the other, you're supposed to hold this other set. And they've done it along racial lines too.


>>94413062
>today we dont have the industry that can compete with popular demands
Surely that is not because in glorious capitalism it has all been sold to criminals for $1, and then they resold it to foreigners for their own profit a few years later. It also has nothing to do with the interest and meddling of foreign capitalist countries.

>>94413267
>You do realize that it would be completely impossible to give everyone an upper class lifestyle, right?
Meanwhile in glorious capitalism everyone lives in a Manhattan penthouse.

Oh wait.

"Democracy: The God that Failed" by Hans-Hermann Hoppe is the single best refutation of democracy I have found. Hoppe also includes a strong argument to prefer monarchy over democracy.

Without motivation to excel, people will do the bare minimum. Why work hard when you could get the same result slacking. The only way to get people to try hard without offering benefits for doing so (at which point you're basically becoming capitalism) is to deal out punishments for failure. Work, or go to the gulag.

>>94398272
nothing really

It's just that without nationalism socialism is not sustainable

>>94411503
>And now they're ten times better, right
nothing trumps pite sa sirom, cevape, & prsut m9

>>94413998

No, and that's precisely the fucking point.

If you want to live in a Manhattan penthouse you have to provide something of equal value to the people, be it in the form of running a business that produces physical goods that people want, by providing a service that they want, or even (god forbid!) by lending your capital to people who need to do the above.


If you don't want to apply yourself and/or take risks, you can live an average life and there's nothing wrong with that.


Socialism FORCES you to be average. What's the fucking freedom in that.

>>94413889
>http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2010/03/19/which-starves-more-people-capitalism-or-communism/

This is stupid as it does not differentiate between First World (Capitalism), Second World (Communism), Third Word (Neither). Most starvation occurred in Third Word which was a shithole filled by niggers. Show me where exactly in Western Europe and USA, in a time period of 1700 to 1900 was a mass starvation not resulting in a war.

Oh and a sidenote, when Socialist Somalia failed and turned into a lawless shithole it is today, HDI went up, not down.

>>94398272

Two main problems:

1) The numbers simply don't add up. Price determinations and labor allocation in a socialist economy are completely arbitrary and therefore too inefficient to be self-sustaining in the long term. Ergo, Venezuela.

This problem could be overcome by a powerful enough AI that could run calculations to simulate a capitalist economy in the background and set prices and allocate labor that way, but we don't have a machine powerful enough to replicate the trillions of cost/benefit decisions human beings make every day in real time that determine market parameters.

2) At the core of it, when you strip away land and capital, people themselves are the means of production. Socialism therefore asserts that you have a right to another man's labor; in effect, everyone is made a slave of society.

Again, circumvented by labor robots doing everything for us, but we're not there yet.

Socialism works in Star Trek and not our current world for very definable reasons. Give it 200 years or so and call back.

>>94413889
i did say last 70 years you dumb shit

>>94414026
Enlightened absolutism is clearly the best option, historically speaking.

>>94414330
So the exact same things that you had back then too.

Except now prsut stinks of shit if you don't have a family that makes it on their own, and cevapi have fucking bones in them, because everyone is using some Argentinian 30 year old frozen imported meat and ground cow hooves to save as much money as possible.

>>94398424
it punishes failure with a bullet to the neck, that should be incentive enough.

>>94414030

Which in effect, when you think about it, is still capitalism.

It's just that in capitalism you have to work for money.
In glorious socialism you work for invisible freedumz points that keep you from going to the gulag.

It's the same damn thing, but it doesn't work nearly as well because it has a negative connotation to it and people notoriously react better to positive incentives rather than punishments.

>>94414770
Wait, are you literally bemoaning the fact that socialism (theoretically) doesn't allow sociopaths to become demigods by fucking over the masses?

>>94414883
>Except now prsut stinks of shit if you don't have a family that makes it on their own, and cevapi have fucking bones in them, because everyone is using some Argentinian 30 year old frozen imported meat and ground cow hooves to save as much money as possible.

No, not everyone is doing that.
You can choose to not buy products from companies that use shitty ingredients.
Most people don't bother, so it means they're cool with it.

I never buy anything that's got artificial sweeteners in it, for example.

Capitalism gives you a choice.

>>94414861
>2) At the core of it, when you strip away land and capital, people themselves are the means of production. Socialism therefore asserts that you have a right to another man's labor; in effect, everyone is made a slave of society.
Whereas in capitalism, you are made someone else's slave.

This is a bit harder to morally justify, isn't it?

>>94401140
The problem here under socialism they stop helping the crazies and instead let them run rampant assault and steal while telling the ordinary people and the police that they have to just accept it.

Want to see what socialist governments do with the mentally ill look up "east hastings street" under the previous governments those people were all in mental hospitals getting helped. Many of them even came out of those hospitals normal. But the socialist NDP closed all the mental hospitals because it was "discrimination" to put "different" people in them. Now instead of getting help they steal from people and sell the stolen goods in the streets

They then told us we had to be accepting of crazies/drug addicts etc

Now that the socialists are out of power and dine their damage we don't have the money anymore to get these people the help that we used to give them and so all we can do is send police down there with assault rifles to try and keep them contained

>>94398272
I want more than others, and i am willing-, and capable to do more work, and take risk for it. -why shouldnt i have the possibility to do so?

>>94415176

>Owning a nicer house than someone who works minimum wage means you're a "demigod who's fucking over the masses".

Yeah, I don't know why I expected to be able to have a reasonable discussion with an unironic communist.

>>94415176
http://www.working-minds.com/money.htm

>>94415440
>Most people don't bother, so it means they're cool with it.
And here we have another problem with capitalism, which is best exemplified by the whole "boiling a frog" parable.

So... if you can convince most people that eating shitty food is just fine, why can't you convince them to just be kind to each other?

>>94401150
Why do countries like the US and Canada give so many taxpayer dollars to foreign governments? Not to pay debts but "just because"

I dont think we have ever received any foreign money like that except maybe when we were a British colony and maybe ro help us build up an army during ww2

>>94415543
That's a problem of Canadians being morons, not a problem of socialism. Of course you'd have proper mental health facilities in a normal, sane socialist country.

Why are people constantly confusing ideology with what's being sold to them as ideology by the people in power who are trying to swindle them?

>>94415176
>oh no! He produced something and trade it for money wich had same value as his house!
>how evil is that!. Mom! - why dont i have that?!!!

>>94415518
>Whereas in capitalism, you are made someone else's slave.

No, you're not. You're asserting things without evidence or theory why they're true.

You are no more a slave in capitalist system than in an absence of all form of government - you still have to eat and provide shelter for yourself. And in capitalism, you engage in voluntary exchange. The opposite of slavery.

>>>94415667
Don't bother Lorenzo, some are beyond saving. All commies are inherently traitors and if you have only one bullet, shoot the traitor instead of the enemy.

>So... if you can convince most people that eating shitty food is just fine, why can't you convince them to just be kind to each other?

Which brings me back to >>94409074
in which I assert that Commie theory has no proper concept of class, and that is falls on the Blank Slate theory. You cannot convince people to be kind, because the first person to pick up a stone becomes Genghis Khan. Malthusiansims ahoy.

>>94400835
>calling tito scum

kill yourself

>>94398272
It destroys people's will to improve themselves and causes generations of useless welfare leeches to surface.

>>94415955
>>I dont think we have ever received any foreign money like that
Oh you have, it's just been going to the ruling class. Most of Canada is owned by China now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_ownership_of_companies_of_Canada

>>94416102
>capitalism
>voluntary exchange
epic meme

>>94416063
Imagine that you see an unopened (but filled with holes) red box on the street surrounded by biggest swarm of flies ever. Would you not be right in operating by a heuristic that there's shit in it.

>>94401140
Thus is why nobody likes socialists. They are annoying teetotalers.
There is literally nothing wrong with booze.

>>94415667
It's not just owning a nicer house.

>>94415518
>Whereas in capitalism, you are made someone else's slave.
In which country right now you cant go to work for anyone you choose, and have skills, and who therefore is willing to hire you, or cant start business, which sell people something they want?

>>94415543
>first paragraph
Any evidence or is it just fanciful fabrication?

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>this man slaps your girls ass in the club

wut do

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>>94398272
All these American wage slaves that never experianced Yugoslavian open market socialism where workers had paid vacations, child care, free schools, free medicare, protection in the work place etc. pretending to know what they are talking about.

Even with all of this the economy was growing at a steady pace and the unemployment was low.


And the Croatian faggots had to ruin it, now im angry.

Who's gonna pull the wagon if everybody is riding in it?

>>94415108
>in socialism you work to not go to gulag
ebin meme

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ITT: No one knows what socialism is.

>>94416102
>You cannot convince people to be kind, because the first person to pick up a stone becomes Genghis Khan.
But how can you convince them to eat shitty food and not overthrow the people who are making them eat shitty food?

Do you see what I'm getting at? If you can convince the majority into such things, then obviously it's the sociopaths that are the problem.

So you'd either have to have a society that makes the machinations of sociopaths not worth it (socialism - which they of course in practice still subvert in various ways), or a society that's literally a sociopath's wet dream i.e. Randian capitalism.

Also,
>voluntary exchange
don't be silly.

>>94414839
>doesn't count because of le epic nigger shitskin meme
ebin
About Somalia, source?

>>94416303
But maybe it was a nice cake before the flies swarmed it.

>>94416576
>1

It was funded by those American wage slaves, and was unsustainable on its own.

>2

It was funded by Croatia and Slovenia, and Serbia and Bosnia parasitised on them. Croatia and Slovenia were under the Habsburgs and were good because of that. Croatia's GDP was best during their own era.

>3
You chimped out. If group A settles the lands of group B with the intent to genocide and annex the lands, group B is well within their rights to genocide back. Which we didn't do, cause you ran away.

>>94416576
>Croatians ruined it
>Not Albanians in Kosovo

>>94416575
Tell his wife. She was quite the monster.

>>94416102
>And in capitalism, you engage in voluntary exchange.

Yea, i love it how in ex-yu countries people voluntary give half of their wage back to their employer so that they dont get fire.

Slavs and especially usa Balkan Slavs should be ruled under a iron fist and with a strong government BUT ONLY IF THE PEOPLE AT THE HEAD OF THE STATE ARE COMPETENT.

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>>94398272

At best, the result of socialism is merely stagnation.

All the more likely, socialism merely stands as a stepping stone to communism and communism leads to mass starvation and death.

More people have died due to communism than anything else, and Stalin's rule resulted in far, far more death than Hitler's.

Ironically, the ones fighting for socialism are the first to brand others as nazis and condemn Hitler...

>>94416631
Top lel

Best description I've ever seen.

>>94412569
That's a ridiculous meme originating with perverted Friedman-esque logic. Where are Norway's gulags?

>>94412346
>all communists/socialists are Stalinists
wat

>>94416576
> what is inflation
> why did Serbs get all the slovenian industry and croatian tourist money
> what are rationed goods
It wasn't all that great. It's why I'm not there to tell you.

>>94398272
It didn't work in Germany so it won't work elsewhere.

>>94411932
>freedom is a natural human right
Only for the glorious job creators.

>>94417008
But you wouldn't eat a cake flies swarm over now, would you?

>>>94416851
>But how can you convince them to eat shitty food and not overthrow the people who are making them eat shitty food?

Because shitty food isn't really shitty, it's just that we evolved in an environment where starvation was a bigger risk than gluttony. Historically, lack of sugar was a greater problem than abundance of it, which is why you like it now.

>About Somalia, source?

It doesn't count because they are by definition Third World - meaning they're neither. They're not capitalists. And google this stuff.

>>>94417348
If you don't want to give it, don't. Start your own thing. Which is a thing in capitalism.

>>94415838

Everyone knows sodas are bad for you.
Everyone knows cigarettes are bad for you.

Now try to convince people that they should stop drinking soda and smoking cigarettes and tell me how successful you are.

>protip: you will be about as successful in trying to convince them that they should subsidize the life of people who don't want to work as hard as them.


What you're not getting is that socialism aims to create an equality of outcome, while capitalism aims to create an equality of opportunity.

The former is just stupid because different people have different needs.
I'm perfectly fine driving a 20 years old car if it saves me 15000€ over buying a new one.
I can use that money for something else that I value more.

Some people are content living in a small flat in a city forever, close to their friends and family. These people can choose to work part time and only earn as much money as they need.

I'm not. I'm living in my current house for as long as it takes me to save enough money, then I'm moving to the countryside. I've already eyed a property that I want to buy and renovate over time.
I'll rent out the first house as soon as I move, to help pay the bills so that I can work less.

Investment, get it? Work harder now, so that I can work half as much in 15 years.

In your world view this means I plan to "fuck over" my future tenants, which is fucking stupid as a concept.
It's not like I'm forcing them to rent from me.

>>94398272
Nothing. Countries like Denmark are proof that it's the best possible system.

>>94417094
>under the Habsburgs
Do note that this was essentially socialism, look at their food, social care, public health etc. policies, and how they endeavoured to develop and educate even the most remote areas of the empire.

>>94410625
*sophistry intensifies*

>>94417416
What do you call only having a PS2 if not a gulag?

>>94408900
>muh bootstraps

>>94408667
Not an argument.

>>94408489
>someone tries to make objective differences
>HURRRR LE NO TROO SGOTSMAN LE XDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!1!111!!!111!1!1!1!1!!!!!!!!!

>>94416576
>All these American wage slaves that never experianced Yugoslavian open market socialism where workers had paid vacations, child care, free schools, free medicare, protection in the work place etc. pretending to know what they are talking about.

We have all of those things in Italy and we also earn more than 300€ per month and can afford a better car than a Yugo 45, Branko.

>>94407476
Dank meme

>>94398272
needs a high iq, and an ethnically homogeneous population to function. But that combination allows for whatever system to function so theres that.

if you have low iq, the system will become corrupt and inefficient.

If you have a multicultural society, then certain groups of the population will start living only off the social benefits, without contributing anything back to the system.

lolbertarian is a lot more robust system that can tolerate both idiocy and diversity.

>>94417771
>Now try to convince people that they should stop drinking soda and smoking cigarettes and tell me how successful you are.

That's what I was getting at at the beginning, on the surface it would appear that the only things that you can't convince people to do are good things, and the only things that you can convince people to do are bad things.

So, should we come to the conclusion that human beings are naturally malevolent towards themselves and other? Are human beings literally evil?

>aims to create an equality of outcome
That's terrible, of course it doesn't. Even if you tried, it would be impossible.

>In your world view this means I plan to "fuck over" my future tenants, which is fucking stupid as a concept.
Well, are you? We'd have to look at the figures to determine that. Everyone knows in their hearts what a fair price for something is, people aren't stupid. Everything beyond that is just rationalization and obfuscation of the fact that someone's being fucked over.

>>94417928
No, this was absolutism, reaction, the ur-right, however you want to call it.

Central to the position of it is that there is no such thing as Private Property, there is Property of the Crown which delegates (rents) property to people in form of Secondary Property. Reactionary position is that there is no such things as Rights as anterior to the society, and it is the State itself that creates those Rights. The leftist position is that certain Rights come anterior to the State, and must be obliged if the State is to be Valid(TM). One such right is the right to own property.

When Marx says abolish Private Property he implicitly says that Private Property exists. He is an extension of the physiocrat (and thus liberal) notion that only those who till the field should own it. He asks the bourgeois the same question liberals asked the Crown : "If you own it, but do not work, why do you own it?" to conclude that they shouldn't own it.

Notice that I'm not defending capitalism, but shitting on communism. The best form of government is reactionary absolutism which practices State Capitalism which ensure the the engine of economy is intact, but that that very engine does not blow up in its face. Kinda like Fascist who allowed Capitalism if it did not harm the State (or Race in NatSoc mythology).

>>94418425
>>94417945

>It's a burger goes retard episode

I'm only mildly amused by it.

>>94417752
>If you don't want to give it, don't. Start your own thing. Which is a thing in capitalism.

You know that this is a dumb statement and that less than 1% of people in our countries actaully have the money and knowladge to start their own bussines. Not to mention that intrest rates for banks especially here in Serbia (as i work for a bank) are high, and especailly for a start up who doesent have a lot of profit in the beginning.

The Chicago school of economics you are advocating for is a decent system in countries that are already developed like America. That just can't work here because of the insane amount of regulations and "red tape" it takes to start a business.

>>94416851
>who are making them eat shitty food?

Nobody is MAKING them eat shitty food.
They can choose to not eat it at any time.

They're eating it because it's not that shitty after all and they like to spend the money they saved on something else.

>>94407048
The funny thing is that I've heard of economics professors regurgitating the incentive meme while ignoring the fact that everyone else in the school would say the exact opposite. Great example of ideology at work.

>>94406669
Found the non-argument.

>>94418842
>That just can't work here because of the insane amount of regulations and "red tape" it takes to start a business.

That is the fault of State, isn't it?

So you want to fix something caused by excessive State power by giving the State more power?

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>>94409531
Quite right

>>94406343
tip top kek

>>94400906
Kind of agree with ya

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>>94418502
Pic related, Italian capitalist utopia.

>>94405464
Nice meme.

>>94418805
>retard
Not an argument.

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>>94398272

>>94403038
Wishful thinking

>>94398272
>what's wrong with socialism
It becomes corrupted by those who know how to exploit the human condition, you cannot fix this.

>>94417752
>Third World countries can't be capitalist
wat

>>94398272
Doesn't work in non-homogenous societies, and promotes the development of non-homogenous societies, resulting in its own eventual downfall.

>>94419258
>people who want to give this kind of filthy entry are overwhelmingly anti-capitalist
>people who give this kind of filth incentive to stay are overwhelmingly socialist
>blame capitalism for it

>>>94419428
Mildly amused.

>>94418683

>So, should we come to the conclusion that human beings are naturally malevolent towards themselves and other? Are human beings literally evil?

No, they aren't evil, but they are egoistic. There's a diference.

>Everyone knows in their hearts what a fair price for something is, people aren't stupid

Which is the basis of the free market.

If I tried to price my house at 1000€/month nobody would rent it, because as you put it "people aren't stupid".

I will also not price it at 100€/month, because I ain't stupid either.

Therefore, with this simple example we can illustrate that the "fair price" can only be determined by the free market.
Nobody can set the "fair price" of a good better than the people who are selling and buying it.

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>>94419258
Capitalism is cancer as it needs to keep bringing in 3rd world migrants to work as cheap labour it's the boses that want this.
If you have capitalism you will have mass immigration

>>94417401
>muh 100 billion trillion

>>94400073
see
>>94419510

>>94400575

So is the internet, yet here we are

>>94419113
Giving the state more power isnt always bad. If the state isnt corrupt and the people at the top know what they are doing the economy can recover.

To fix our economies the state should invest in building factories, mines etc. that over time get a better reputation and gain more and more profit which it sells to a pricate holder (preferably domestic) and gains its money back and it doesnt risk loosing money anymore.

Here that is impossible because as soon as a new bussines open out corrupt politicians hire their son in laws, brothers and friend who barely finished high school.

Socialism is shit m8.
Neoliberalism is shit too.
Yugoslavia was okayish but as soon as Tito left it started to collapse which means that system was bad.

>>94398272
It really doesn't work.

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>>94417401
>Stalin killed over one gorizillan billions people trust me guys I know my stuff

>>94419642
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World

>The term Third World arose during the Cold War to define countries that remained non-aligned with either NATO, or the Communist Bloc. The United States, Western European nations and their allies represented the First World, while the Soviet Union, China, Cuba, and their allies represented the Second World.

And TWC were often Commies not agreeing with other Commies and not capitalists. You need to have means of production to have a free market.

>>94418842
>That just can't work here because of the insane amount of regulations and "red tape" it takes to start a business.

Can't you see that that's a product of socialism itself?

Starting a business in America is easy as fuck, and it's always been easy as fuck for as long as America has existed.

It has nothing to do whatsoever with how developed it is.

>>94398272
How's it working in Middle and South America? Oh, it isn't? Contact us in another century. Maybe you've gotten it right then.

>>94418805
Wouldn't you agree that if the state exists at all, in practice all rights come and are guaranteed, protected, enforced, or taken by the state anyway though, no matter which philosophical principles the state is founded upon?

>>94419661
>people who want to give this kind of filthy entry are overwhelmingly anti-capitalist
But those are perfectly legitimate factory workers in a capitalist system.

>>94398427
>socialism takes no interest in the people
>socialism however does

>>94398424
America did pretty well

>>94419830
>If the state isnt corrupt and the people at the top know what they are doing the economy can recover.

If the State isn't corrupt, it should rule. But you are dredging into Reactionary Theory, which says that corruption is a permanent thing, and we must localize the system which lessens it.

Which is ironically, not socialism.

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>>94417094
>>94417193
>>94417570
>>94418502
Thanks for the free (you)'s :^)

>>94419861
What doesn't work?
Capitalism as retards here imagine it doesn't work either.
Swing too much to either side and it's not sustainable in long run.
In the end, there are no simple answers, some things work somewhere, some don't.

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>>94398427
National """"socialism""""

>>94402113

This is probably one of the most retarded comments I have ever seen on the Internet. Do you have even the slightest understanding of economics, specifically supply and demand?

>>94398272
It's anti social

>>94408667
What are you guys even talking about? Without "socialism" my country would be unlivable. Both cold war ideological factions are complete retards. I pay ~40% tax and feel good about contributing to a responsive, active democracy maintaining tons of services, especially to ensure the children don't become retards like all burgers and russians are.

The pensions on the other hand are devil wealth horders and should be dismantled, people seem to agree so it will happen eventually.

>>94401150
Source? Im just curious. My ancestor were in detention camps during Titos regime and he was the most mellow tame mofo you could imagine

>>94398272
>what's wrong with Socialism
somewhere down the line one runs out of other's monies, then human nature kicks in

even if the world were not resource limited, people would be against channeling gibs from their productive hands into the unwashed masses' hands who do shit but live their parasitic existence

specifically for our late dear leader, he should've invested more and spent less on bullshit that is but an expense and carries little benefit elsewhere (e.g. conventional military instead of nuclear capability etc)

>>94419661
>>people who want to give this kind of filthy entry are overwhelmingly anti-capitalist
>>people who give this kind of filth incentive to stay are overwhelmingly socialist
>>blame capitalism for it

Thanks for saying it for me.

>>94419711

>le "capitalism needs third worlder immigrants" meme

No, it doesn't. It only does when you price your own fucking industry out of the market by importing goods from third world countries. E.g. China.

Capitalism != Globalism.

America was capitalist and isolationist for a hell of a lot longer than it has been globalist.

>>94419920
The Cold War is over, first of all. Second of all, means of production exist everywhere. Third of all, much of the third world in the Cold War era was diehard capitalist or anti leftist. Look at El Salvador, Haiti, Indonesia, Zaire, etc.

>>94419920
And the economic system in Africa is, what, bullshitism? They seem to have the means of production just fine when they need to produce cheap luxury goods for the western world.

Or shall we just agree that the entire western capitalist system needs actual foreign slavery to even survive, much less expand?

>>94419898
So Stalinism is the "true socialism" you seek? Life lived according to the whim of a sociopath?

>>94420198
>Hitler youth program
>Universal healthcare
>SS
>not socialist

>>94419936
>>Starting a business in America is easy as fuck
Yes, it is a mystery how in all the countries they're economically exploiting they force bullshit regulations so that the normal person can't do shit with their lives, why would they do that?

>>94419989
And what works in Central and South America? Problems of these societies go beyond political ideology.
>b-but muh Pinochet
Chile started growing after moderates came to power. Pinochet was a failure and his early economic policies were a failure. It's also fun to notice he didn't sell copper mines.
On the other hand welfare state concept and mixed economics seem to be succesful in Scandinavia.
South Korea also experienced massive success by going against neoliberal logic.

Socialism is fine as long as it's a nationalist gov.
See : Scandinave countries before immigration.
So, yeah National-Socialism.

>>94420681
sure

>>94419936
Starting a business in America is impossible.

>>94420616
He didn't say that.

>>94420624
Read for the love of god READ

http://pastebin.com/wV97RYQT

Also socialism dosen't equal everything the state does

>>94420681

Easy, they want talented people to move to America and start their business there instead.


Remember that the US don't really see us as allies, they see us as competitors (as evidenced by the recent espionage scandals).

Why would you want your competitors to have good industry?

>>94398272

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLBxmWpFLKM

>>94420340
I wouldn't brag too much about the wonderful systems of a country where 70% of kids are born out of wedlock so that they can be indoctrinated into SJW bullshit from an early age.

>>94420020
>no matter which philosophical principles the state is founded upon?

A regime founded by lies is inherently unstable. If the Duke's Duke by the virtue of Divine Right, all is well. If the Duke's Duke by virtue of social contract and mere chance, question is asked why's he a Duke and I am not?

If comrade Tito is a champion of Proletariat, the question that's asked is "why's Tito drudging in his yacht with bitches while I'm semi-starving"? To note a hypocrisy in such a regime is disastrous for such a regime, and thus this kind of regime is inherently tyrannical. Look up Havel's greengrocer.

>But those are perfectly legitimate factory workers in a capitalist system.
If they were capable of perfectly legitimate factory work, they wouldn't be rioting right now.

>>94420127
Well meme'd my Orthodox brother.

>>94420454
>>94420549
Much of the third world in CW era was divided, with strong communist flavour. The only SA country that is capitalist was Chile, which is the only SA country worth living in.

>And the economic system in Africa is, what, bullshitism? They seem to have the means of production just fine when they need to produce cheap luxury goods for the western world.

Undeveloped. Marxist dialectics is as follows : 1) Primitive, 2) Capitalism, 3) Communism. You can't blame stage 2 for stage 1, especially since your theory is that any stage is direct contradition to prior and it's direct cure.

BTW we need resources from Africa, and niggers are incapable of using it. Prior to capitalism, we'd butcher then and take it (stage 1). Which is depending on your take, for or against capitalism.

>>94420707
National socialism is a great term to describe proper and sustainable socialism, too bad it was ruined by Nazis.

>>94420443
The only way to stop importing goods from third world countries. E.g. China would be through protectionism.
Going against free market ideals also Bosses would still prefer to employ cheap labour everytime

>>94420707
That's xenophobic tho.

>>94398272
>whats wrong with my failed ideology, not counting all the times it failed

>>94421203
>all of Latin America was divided or communist except Chile
Jesus Christ I provided two explicit examples.

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>>94421024
>socialism doesn't equal everything the state does
Please read a book at least once in your life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism:_The_Unknown_Ideal

>>94420443
>>No, it doesn't.
Then why are you importing them? Shits and giggles?

>With the economic crisis worsening, there are signs xenophobia could increase as Italians start to compete with immigrants for a slice of the shrinking economic pie.

>Violence broke out in southern Italy yesterday as hundreds of migrant workers, most of them Africans, went on a rampage

>As more Italians become jobless and even homeless, Caritas officials say, tensions are growing.

>Many Italians are seeking jobs in three areas long relegated only to foreigners - domestic help and care of the elderly, agriculture and construction.

>Sociologist Emilio Santoro, who teaches at the University of Florence, says the majority of immigrants are paid one-third of what they should be getting by law, and they work very long hours.

>"This is the problem because they find a market which is based on dumping, social dumping, then they have to accept the same salary as the foreign people," Santoro says.

>The new job competition risks turning into a war pitting poor against poor.

>>94421397
Xenophobia is human nature. Some cultures can't coexist, unless both adapt and in that case it's pointless to talk about multiculturalism. Multiculturalism is a self-defeating concept.

>>94420401
Capitalism relies more on growth, the world resource cap is an even bigger issue under pure capitalism. Social policies help reduce the negative effects of slow growth, like through temporary unemployment benefits. Some can also themselves cause growth to slow obviously, like a too high minimum wage.

>parasites
There are some gibqueens here but they are rare, their total cost is negligible and the amount of work needed from them to maintain the gibs is immense. I have known some, their lives suck balls and no one wants to be like them, everyone mostly just pities them even though they are spoiled and dumb. The children of gibqueens I know seemingly tend to be even more independent and motivated if anything.

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>>94421632
Ownership over the means of production as defined by socialism is to be taken into the workers hands not the states.

>Ayn Rand
Jesus anon

>>94420696
Ya'know, it was also experimented with in Eastern Europe - it ended in failure. In Korea, it ended in Juche dictatorship. In China, communism was merged with hypercapitalism. In Ukraine and Spain, anarchists had to fight bolsheviks in addition to the "evil" fascists they fought. How is it that communism ends in total failure every time it's tried?

It results in corrupt authoritarians taking control of a country with the willing aid of naive, idealistic morons. Every fucking time a country goes full socialism that's what happens.

>>94421998
The anarchist and libertarian factions in those wars were closer to socialist ideals than the Bolsheviks were.

There's nothing wrong with socialism in a regulatory way, the same as capitalism with regulation, The problem is that ignorant people think socialism is stupid. But every single government in the world has socialist programs, it's just people are stupid enough to not know about this.

>>94421688

Because the (((European court for human rights))) fined us 15000€ for each sandnigger we sent back to Lybia?

Maybe because the (((EU))) also threatened to fine us 6 gorillion euros if we didn't stop immediately?

Maybe because (((they))) want to replace us with more controllable inbred nigger mongrels?

http://www.dw.com/en/court-fines-italy-for-deporting-migrants-to-libya/a-15761455


And none of this is a fault of capitalism itself.

>>94421998
You're talking about Soviet-style socialism. Or Marxism-Leninism.
Socialism is a blanket term. I'm adressing those who think that there's no middle-ground.
In the end getting trapped in meaningless terms is bullshit.
I for example am mostly right on social issues but mostly left on economic issues.
I don't want to ban private enterprise, but I also don't want to see rise of elite like in West that will sell their own country for profit by using their economic power to amass political power and delude the masses.
I believe that collective and individual needs must be balanced.
I believe moral relativism, consumerism, globalism are cancer that will eat the world.
Do you disagree with me? Yet people here would call me socialist.

>>94422567
Why don't you "loose" some on the way to italy?

>>94398272
Socialism subsidizes the reproduction of the unproductive (stupid) at the expense of the productive (smart).

Command economies not able to compete with market economies. Socialist state gets BTFO by military of market economies.

Most people would do nothing but drink, have sex, and watch tv if provided for.

Equality is only had in the grave. Those who desire to level at all costs will only achieve their goal if they make the world into a graveyard.

gtfo gommies. Hierarchy is unavoidable.

>>94422217
No fucking shit. You're real go-getter aren't you? A real smart go-getter, who always gets the promotion. Because you're so smart.

>>94421169
I wouldn't talk shit about a system you know nothing about.

Marriage was never this big thing here, extended families raise kids. I am old and my parents married when I was 20 but always stayed together. This is how we have maintained a sustainable fertility level until last year while the rest of Europe peaked in 1965. Having 2 stepchildren to play with your 2 children is not being "cucked" it's literally the Brady Bunch.

Your utterly retarded ideas of marriage and "the one true love" cause nothing but dysfunction, anxiety and the extinction of your culture and race.

How can the workers even own the means of production? How does that work? You would have to have some kind of system decide based on what the workers want. The best way to do that would be to put it up to a vote, and who would handle that? The government is the only thing that can.

>>94416109
>A genocidal madman isn't scum
please have cancer

>>94400835
pls have cancer

>>94422949
Some companies are owned by the workers, the workers have seized the means of production guys. IT'S HAPPENING

The problem with socialism is that it outlaws freedom. Any sort of system that disallows free men from making their own choices is complete garbage. To put it frankly, you're a giant faggot if you think you have the right to make decisions for other people.

Socialism is also inherently flawed. They seek to limit a monopoly of power by a few individuals...by creating a monopoly of power (government) that is ran by even fewer individuals. Socialist writing does a good job pointing out problems in society, but offers solutions that make things way worse.

I do not mind people getting together and voluntarily living in communes dedicated to socialist ideals. In fact, I think those micro-societies could thrive. However, when you force the entire population of a state to bow to the state, it opens the doors for corruption, inefficiency, and injustice.

>>94407800
Like me who came to the States 7 years ago and now i make $200k a year and own my company? All of you failed men blame your own lack of ideas on the more successful ones. Glupa lijena Hrvatska pizdurino

>>94422719
Actually I agree with you on every single point. And I would further assert that a national government's single most important duty is to ensure the future of the nation it governs. This is the single most important axiom that I base my other beliefs on.

Which is why I'm a fascist.

>>94423776
And all "successful" people think they're successful because of their own perceived superior qualities.

It's textbook just world fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

>>94423776
Congratulations on claiming a bigger piece of the pie claimed for you by the US government military.

>>94422495

I've read this like 10 times and I'm 100% certain that your brain does not function well. Please log off the internet.

>>94423776
stfu fail

>>94407800
suuuure

>>94408436
Brazil is proof ultra capitalism fails.

>>94421941
Nazi German government owned stock in Ford. They owned part of Ford, the means of production

>>94422719
>moral relativism
Whether or not this is objectionable depends on how it is interpreted.

Say we accept that there is no such thing as universal moral truths, such as, 'x' is bad. We can go anywhere from here.

The people I think you thought of are those who use their belief in the nonexistence of objective moral facts as a reason to be permissive of any sort of behavior. They think, "We cannot judge or punish 'x' (imagine x as female circumcision, Islam, etc), because there is no basis for moral judgement." But that presupposes that a basis is necessary to make a moral judgement, in contradiction to their belief in the nonexistence of objective moral facts.

Every time we judge something as good or bad, we consciously or unconsciously assert our own values, revealing ourselves to the world. Others can then judge if there is a compatibility: if there is something to be gained from cooperation, that is, mutually beneficial interaction. If there is nothing to be gained, if the difference is so extreme that negotiation (i.e. morality) is impossible, you are simply in a state of war.

All we need to do is be comfortable with the idea that, at its basis, every moral judgement we make is an assertion, to be fearless and confident in our assertions. The meek invent God and the categorical imperative, as to them, freedom is more of a burden than submission.

>>94424192
I'm not superior. I recognized a market need and fulfilled that need. I worked my ass off and pushed lesser competitors out of the market, its very simple but you need to get your ass off that couch. You won't land a dream job unless you actively work towards that goal. But whatever, you and those like you have a mentality of a loser- everything and everybody is at fault but yourself.

>>94424381
Wtf are you talking about

>>94424192
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis


well that's /pol/

Discomfort reduction

Alternatively, victim derogation and other strategies may only be ways to alleviate discomfort after viewing suffering. This would mean that the primary motivation is not to restore a belief in a just world, but to reduce discomfort caused by empathizing. Studies have shown that victim derogation does not suppress subsequent helping activity and that empathizing with the victim plays a large role when assigning blame. According to Ervin Staub,[15] devaluing the victim should lead to lesser compensation if restoring belief in a just world was the primary motive; instead, there is virtually no difference in compensation amounts whether the compensation precedes or follows devaluation. Psychopathy has also been linked to the lack of just-world maintaining strategies, possibly due to dampened emotional reactions and lack of empathy.[16]

>>94424926
Stuff and things.

Unironic good job on your success, I was also trying to point out how government and society plays a big part in success in the modern world. The US military is the engine of the US economy that makes the pie grow, your success is in part thanks to tapping into the growth of the currently dominant superpower instead of staying in poland or whatever and tapping into a very small stream of growth provided there.

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>>94398424

An incentivized pseudo-socialism system where there was graduated income and ranking with soft caps would work better than runaway capitalism

...that is, until you realize someone has to be in charge of said system

worker-owned companies are socialist
my credit union is socialist