Can morals and values beyond pragmatism still exist without god?

Sure? It's possible to be principled even without religion.

>>139599992

Why couldn't they?

>>139600058
That wasn't the question.

>>139599992
Are there absolutes in the atheists' world?

>>139600123
How could they if everything is just an evolutionary mechanism to gain resources/spread your genes?

>>139600165
Please no christlarping. This will only derail the thread and the debate has been done to death.

>>139599992
It's harder to justify them in the minds of the masses, so for a society as a whole belief in God certainly helps, but all you really need is something to set in stone, for a social order, some moral truths. God isn't strictly necessary.

>>139600307
>beyond pragmatism
So that's a no?

>>139599992
Not in any real sense, no, unless you accept teleology, and if and when you do, then it's only a small step from there to God.

>>139600238

Not all higher ideals need a god do they.

>>139600697
Higher than what? Our evolutionary psychological drive/will?
Seemingly so since your flag is the definition of pragmatism.

>>139600901

I'll have to disagree, as communism is a highly moral ideology based arond the notion of eguality.

>>139601106
For pragmatic reasons though. There is no higher motive there beyond "the proletariat has nothing to lose but their shakels"

obviously not, death to morals

>>139601192

I suppose marx thought that way, but I've seen modern communist support it based on moral views.

>>139601653
And what do they base these moral views on beyond pragmatism?

>>139599992
Yes, but not on a large scale.

>>139601824
How so?
And how would scale be in any way relevant?

>>139599992
Really Germany?
Were taught this first week of intro to ethics
Ethics without religion is such a common topic you could fill a text book with bullshit.

Short answer, of fucking course

>>139601803

Alturism beyond what's pragmatic.

>>139599992
Yes
Objectivism

>>139599992
I think people are missing the point here.

The shit you believe determines your interaction with reality. All atheists can do is fake their perception of religious morality.

>>139602040
Hopefully in second week they will teach you the difference between a claim and an argument.

>>139601906
Ask yourself if you'd never been told you'd be smitten with hellfire and tortured eternally
Would you have known right from wrong?
Of fucking course
God does no proceed morality

>>139602197
I knew what was wrong as a child before I knew I'd get burned eternally for it

Your argument doesn't hold water

>>139602070
But why would you behave altruistic beyond what's pragmatic?
Except that it makes you feel good because we evolved to be altruistic for the tribe's good. Which would then technically still be pragmatic.

>>139602346
Don't get all fucking pedantic , ethics existed before God and they exist without god

>>139602159
How is this not pragmatic?

Obviously not. If the physical is all that exists, there's nothing more right or wrong about my values than yours, or anyone else is. If you can't see this, then ask yourself what *objective* (i.e. not one you or a group of people made up) standard there is to adjudicate between right and wrong values and actions without God.

>b..b..but I can make muh own meaning
Sure, but there's nothing *objective* about it. You might create yourself a purpose of, say, raising a family, but if it's your neighbor's created purpose to hack your family to death, then without God, neither of you are right or wrong. You're both just a lump of morally insignificant matter, just like everything else.

>>139602447
I'm not christian you completely miss the question in hand for your edgyness. Of course we have an evolutionary understanding of right and wrong but on what can you base this moral system beyond the pragmatic reasons for which it evolved in the first place?

>i knew what was wrong as a child before I knew I'd get burned eternally for it
Then answer the question and tell us what is wrong and why please.

>>139602473

Good point, but couldn't the same be said about the belief of god?

>>139602538
I know ethics existed before god. The point is can morals exist beyond pragmatism without god?
Sorry I don't mean to be belittling but your statements don't tackle that in the slightest. You're arguing against windmills here. I'm not christian or arguing for god.

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>>139599992
No, people will get mad about the answer but it's completely true. If people truly don't believe in God they would be like Kefka.

>"Why do people insist on creating things that will inevitably be destroyed? Why do people cling to life, knowing that they must someday die? ...Knowing that none of it will have meant anything once they do?"

It's the truth... It's a very sad and scary truth because if there is no afterlife nothing we do really matters. Their response is always well I'm having fun in this life but it all ends eventually... Their family, friends, etc. will all dissappear as well. Nothing will be remembered it will all die and be destroyed in the end.

>"I will destroy everything... I will create a monument to non-existence!"

>"Life...Dreams...Hope...Where do they come from? And where do they go? None of that junk is enough to fulfill your hearts! Destruction...Destruction is what makes life worth living! Destroy! Destroy! Destroy! Let's destroy everything!"

>>139599992
They can only exist without gods. Religious people only act good because they fear punishment, irreligious people act good because they are good

>>139602785
I do say the same about the belief of god. I'm not sure how the notion that I argue for christianity got into this thread.

>>139603104
What is good? And why would I act good? Beyond pragmatism.

>Religious people only act good because they fear punishment
I agree. Again I'm not making an argument for theism (I purposefully didn't use the word religion) here.

It would be sad if the only way we could be moral is to delude ourselves.

>>139599992
Yes.

mpbp

>>139599992
"Morality" is a spook. Do what ever you want but be aware of the karmic consequences

>>139603325
What way have you found?

>>139600307
>God isn't strictly necessary.
how do you know this

>>139602736
I don't have the time for an entire section of ethics coursework here on the 4chain
I may be edgy but you need to go to school kid

>>139603251
>>Religious people only act good because they fear punishment
>I agree
Isn't it possible religious people also act good in aim of good itself? It seems asinine to say it's always out of fear of punishment.

>>139599992
No. We will fall in full moral relativism.

>>139599992
> beyond pragmatism

I don't think you understand the purpose of morals and values

sure they can. you just need a philosophical basis for morality. in my religion, belief in God is not required in fact (even though I do believe in God as the Universe). the criterion for morality is minimal harm and maximal harm towards those that do harm. hence the islamomarxist genocide that will be happening soon to the delight of everyone.

>>139599992
Yes. As long as your religion is without god. See: The cathedral of liberal goyhood. Equality and diversity may be twisted, but they're still (((values)))

>>139604618
>all these words to say I can't

>>139604998
I don't think you understand the question

>>139605056
>the criterion for morality is minimal harm and maximal harm towards those that do harm
That sounds odly pragmatic. What philosophical basis for your morality do you have beyond pragmatism?Isn't genociding someone causing harm also?

>>139605264
What? How is diversity a value? What basis for equality is there beyond pragmatism?

>>139606022
>What? How is diversity a value? What basis for equality is there beyond pragmatism?
They don't even understand it, it's emotion fueled dogma.

>>139599992
Let's check in with Marcus, there:
>Since it is possible that thou mayest depart from life this very moment, regulate every act and thought accordingly. But to go away from among men, if there are gods, is not a thing to be afraid of, for the gods will not involve thee in evil; but if indeed they do not exist, or if they have no concern about human affairs, what is it to me to live in a universe devoid of gods or devoid of Providence? But in truth they do exist, and they do care for human things, and they have put all the means in man's power to enable him not to fall into real evils.
The last bit's the important part, but it leads us to a chicken and egg problem: the gods have given us the power to avoid evil, requiring no further involvement on their part, but would we have developed such without their influence?

>>139607155
Did you just mean to show off or is what you said relevant to the question?

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>>139599992
"Well the time it is coming for them to get a message of their own, Donald Trump is the ultimate punishment and WE ARE HIS FUCKING EXECUTIONERS, I think it's quite conservitave to say that Tens of Thousands of Men are anxiously awaiting for the words to fall out of the right persons mouth telling us the wait is over, and we can fulfill our purpose in life by competing to see who can kill the most Communist. We are not weak or gentle or unaware of what is being done to us, we are the same ruthless monsters who mastered the art of warfare before your favorite demographic discovered the wheel, but neither are we the dim-witted Communist Revolutionaries or the Islamic Jihadist you fight over today. We are a disciplined, calculating menace waiting for the time to strike. Luckily for us who are anxious for the chance it cannot be far off. We have seen Terrorism, Race Riots, False Flags and Now shots fired, we are not going to sit here and watch you topple an elected President waiting to see what Democrats prefer to Democracy. We will smash, stab, shoot and bomb you in a manner that will make the Islamic State look civilized by comparison. We 'll slaughter your males, rape your women and leave your children in the company of the pedophiles you've set free upon our streets. If anyone is going to impose an UN-elected Government on the continent of North America it's gonna be us and the only thing we're going to be more liberal with is the fucking death penalty!"
Christopher Cantwell, Libertarian, Political Prisoner.

>>139599992
Yes, but only for humans. I'd literally have to write a book to show you how to get there.

>>139599992
Yes, they are part of our very biology

>>139607448
>show off
Not even a little. I thought it directly relevant to the question, and apropos of your chosen pic. Good day.

>>139608871
So how is it?
>can morals and values exist without god?
>gods exist and they have put all the means in man's power to enable him not to fall into real evils
Why not say in what way it is relevant?

>>139606022
I don't think you looked up the definition of pragmatism before you made the thread, morals and values exist to determine the rightness or wrongness of actions, they are by definition based in pragmatism because that is how they are applied

>>139600165
Yes. Things they are used to.

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>>139599992
The religious right has abandoned God for wealth and authority decades ago.

>>139599992
If Kant is right and they are a side effect of rationality, yes (He likely isnt right).

If the utilitarians are right and they are a consequence of the drive to seek happiness, yes (humes law showes this to be nonsense).

I think pragmatism is the best you are going to get

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>>139599992
The biblical God commands that you die amd recieve torture before you sin against him, that is how despised sin is in the Bible, it takes a lot of faith in God and your morals to literally die for them. Without a God to punish or take revenge on you for your sins, I can't imagine someone dying to uphold their moral ideals, unless they realize how terrible and abominable evil is I guess.

https://youtu.be/vww7eQYhPMc

>>139600238
>How could they if everything is just an evolutionary mechanism to gain resources/spread your genes?

Homo Sapiens is a social species, individuals aren't only concerned with themselves. Altruism and self-sacrifice have a greater beneficial impact on the survival of the species than they do a negative one on the survival of the individual. Individuals who demonstrate these traits and survive also dramatically increase their odds of survival and replication after the fact.

Rationalising human morality doesn't somehow nullify it's existence.

>>139599992
yes you fucking jew cuck

>>139599992
yes, but everyone without god's moral's/belief would have their own morals, which could be anything, anything... What traditional catholicism considers evil, would be considered good to a freethinker.. like killing and eating people for example.

Inb4 >Muh church is corrupted argument.
Reminder: the catholic church was infiltrated by luciferians, freemasons, commies ect. throughout the 1100-2000's..

Reminder: traditional Catholics have the faith, Rome has the church, but not the faith.
Traditional Catholicism condemned modernist Rome and pope Francis is not pope, benedict is.

Also christ teaches both good and evil will be within his church, because of man's freewill to choose to do something good or evil, there are popes, bishops, priests ect.. in hell because of evil choices.

>>139612765
>Altruism and self-sacrifice have a greater beneficial impact
I agree

>Rationalising human morality doesn't somehow nullify it's existence
If the question is beyond pragmatism it does though no?

>>139612827
Please no christlarping especially to that degree. You have your own threads.

>>139612827
>yes, but everyone without god's moral's/belief would have their own morals
Not if they believed in moral objectivity. With some agreed upon premise.

>>139613351
>moral objectivity
What's moral objectivity's morals, what does the belief consider good and bad?

>>139613349
sorry but the truth must be said.