The Brain Does Not Generate Consciousness

>>139247907
Then what does?

>>139247907
>>Brain does not generate consciousness...

>>removing brain removes consciousness.

What do you imply the brain is some sort of 'receptor' for consciousness? like a satellite dish?

And how is it transferred? The brain doesn't seem to be emitting or receiving any form of energy other than signals to the body.

We can make people vegetables by removing parts of the brain, how do you explain that?

>>139248339
Tide goes in, tide goes out. You can't explain that.

define "consciousness"

>>139248456
The moon

>>139247907

>he doesn't have intention manifestation

sucks for you normie

>>139248116

Who knows? But there's no evidence the brain generates it. Maybe consciousness is the fundamental substrate of reality, and the brain is something that consciousness dreamed up?

>>139248116

Don't u see the pic u dumb
It's a mini black hole made by the pineal gland in the core of the brain that sucks galaxy enegry into conciousness. Smaller animal brains doesn't suck that much star powder so they are not conscious and only live to fuck and eat sunflower seeds

>>139247907
What a dumb, delusional, piece of shit you are.
Worthless aussie

>>139248499

Consciousness is more fundamental than language and therefore cannot be defined in words.

But if you are conscious, then you know what I mean by it, definition or no.

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>>139247907
Then how do you explain physical substances like alcohol altering your consciousness so much?

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>>139248339
>removing engine stops the driver from being able to use the car

Could humans have been created by cars?

>>139248456
What do you mean? We can explain the tide.

You can't make an assertion based on evidence, "There is no evidence" that the brain generates consciousness..

and immediately defend that argument with "there are other things that can't be explained"...

If your big defence is it can't be explained, why even care if there is or isn't evidence.

Why not just say the consciousness comes from the back of elephants standing on an infinite tower of turtles in space?

>>139248116
Fpbp, I'm curious too.

>brain doesn't generate conciousness

>anesthetics that knock you unconcious and block certain pathways in brain such as memory, pain exist

>consciousness not product of brain

are you retarded?

>>139248339
i think the argument is the brain is just another essential organ, like your heart or lungs, and consciousness comes from somewhere else

CNS projects consciousness.
reincarnation is unfalsifiable.
submit to truth religion theocratic supremacist dictatorship or be reincarnated as a pig.

yawn.

>>139248116
nothing does. everything is generated by consciousness. "god" is essentially infinite, eternal conscious awareness. that's pretty much it.

>>139248339
That was my theory, that the brain is an antenna of sorts

>>139248748

Hmm?
It proves the engine and the driver are neccesary for the car to go forward if nothing else.

Similarly the brain is a necessary part of consciousness.

>>139248697

Intention is the result of perspective which is the result of conscious awareness.

>>139248697

Consciousness=being aware of your existence
Animals do know it since they reproduce and avoid being killed by predators, we put words in it as well as social meanings but still nothing but a fancy unknown philosophical shit.

The brain is basically useless. It's like thinking you need a kidney to live

>>139248499
it's awareness, like the feeling of being alive... it's something that has potential but has no innate qualities itself.

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>>139247907
I agree with you.

A question to people who argue otherwise: Does simulating a brain in a computer generate consciousness?

>>139248339
>like a satellite dish?
yes that's exactly it

>>139249048

What'll really cook your noodle is when you become aware you can sense the intention (and thereby, perspective) of others. Output like any other waves are, people are generally only subconsciously aware of them.

>>139249080
But WHAT is aware of its existence? If we made a robot as complex as a human would there be a "conscious" observer inside that, looking out, or would it just operate automatically, seeming like a living being but not having that observer?

>>139248116
there is no such thing as consciousness

>>139248853
But removing the heart stops bloodflow, killing other organs in the time taken for those organs to starve from lack of oxygen.

Removing lungs stops blood being oxygenated and we can detect the oxygen levels dropping causing other organs to fail.

Removing the brain seems to remove consciousness, and stops the signals that keep the heart and lungs beating, causing other organs to starve causing death.

The brain doesn't cause a SECONDARY effect other than removing consciousness (besides stopping signals to other body prarts).

>>139248911
But we don't observe any form of data in any kind we know going in and out.

Either we have to invent a whole new way that data can be transferred that people haven't discovered in thousands of years of the smartest men considering problems...

Or perhaps the brain does generate consciousness.

>>139248959
not really, consciousness isn't contingent upon the brain.
>>139248339
>>>removing brain removes consciousness.
how do you know
>we can not determine them conscious
how do we determine if they are conscious
>responsiveness to stimuli
So a form of communication
This just means we can't communicate. It would be like saying everyone outside of earshot is braindead.

Removing the radio doesn't remove the radio waves

>>139247907
Consciousness is just your brain's ability to create a personal narrative based on memories.

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>>139249253
>KIDSS9/R

That's an unfortunate ID for a serious discussion

>>139248959
but removing everything but the head removes consciousness too explain that

>>139247907
>Why do people fall for this materialist meme?
Because negatives can't be proven.

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>>139247907
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_loop
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_loop
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_loop

>>139248796
Okay, for the people who live under rocks, I am making a reference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUeybwTMeWo

>>139247907
>There is not so much the thinnest sliver of evidence that the brain generates consciousness.
I know. I was arguing against someone and got them to agree that hairbrushes were conscious because they wouldn't accept this. It's the same as people saying how computer AI will one day generate consciousness.

If you say a computer can generate consciousness, you have to realize any computer you build with electrical circuits and logic gates, the same computer could be built with wooden gears. And those wooden gears could theoretically be a bunch of hairbrushes or ANYTHING strung together into a mechanism which is built to react upon input to the system/mechanism.

By this logic most people I've asked will agree that a hairbrush does not have human consciousness, but most also agree that one day we might be able to string a more than one hairbrush together in the form of gears which will THEN be able to generate consciousness. It's fucking retarded. If one hairbrush (1 gear, 1 circuit, whatever) has no consciousness, then any number of them in combination will also never have consciousness.

>>139249440
>Removing the brain seems to remove consciousness
But it doesn't anymore than removing the lungs. The only thing is the time it takes.
>doesn't cause a secondary effect
But it does
Oh wait, you've already a-priori ruled that out, looks like you win again.

>>139247907
go and hit you head really hard into a wall or have a stroke. You, or rather other people around you, will understand why consciousness is in the brain

>>139249424
This is probably pretty close to reality.

Consciousness must be something like a 'optical' illusion. But a reality illusion.

When you take memories and stack them deep enough and connect them in nutty ways they form something that 'reacts' so randomly it appears to be generating it's own order.

Without memory the human brain fully formed would be a blank slate, completely unconscious.

all of the buildings, all of those cars
were once just a dream
in somebody's head

>>139248697
>>139249184
what is the point of discussing a concept that boils down to "C'MON MAN YOU JUST KNOW"?
why do i give a shit which organ produces it if you can't give me even a framework for what it is or means?

>>139249424
this is true in a way also, because the "ground of being" has no qualities and is beyond the understanding of mind. it's not a concept, because concepts are actual things. it's beyond that.

>>139249674
>>139249674

Yeah, all we are are experiences, repeated and reused.

What I am interested in is the first experience

mothafuckin prometheuz

>>139249512
What if the brain is like the controller and data storage for what is essentially like a player character in a game and the player can leave but not take the experiences and personality stored with them?

>>139249794
Woah you see deep jerome

>>139247907
Prove the consciousness exists.

Pro tip: you can't

>>139249459
>>139249512

Removing everything but the head, causes consciousness to remain until the brain stops functioning due to lack of oxygenated blood/energy. This happens in seconds though.


>>139249620

>>139249819
there is no point, that's the whole point really. at the very heart of existence, there is actually no meaning at all. it just happens. or doesn't, because none of this shit is actually real. the only real thing is consciousness awareness.

>>139247907
>There is not so much the thinnest sliver of evidence that the brain generates consciousness.
Lemme guess, consciousness comes from Jesus?

>>139249603

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_paradox

People always look at it as a negative. Same principle as Schrödinger's Cat.

>>139247907
I read somewhere that consciousness resides in the stomach. I don't mean being hungry or well fed.
But that the stomach is the foundation of our being. It's where our soul lives. I'll try to find some sources; the articles I read mentioned nervous systems or something.

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>>139247907
The interaction between numerous support systems for the human body allow the illusion of consciousness to be prevalent enough to make it seem as if it were disconnected. There is no one single part of the body that "is" consciousness, it is everything else.

>insert unrelated image so you people look at my post

>>139250022
>at the very heart of existence, there is actually no meaning at all

Well, that's wrong. Not only have I figured out the meaning of life but I also know the reason to existence. And I figured these things out without psychedelics too.

>>139250216
it's sort of more centered in the heart area

>>139250022
But what if conscious awareness doesn't exist as we understand it.

I think therefore I am sure...

But what am I? A thinking thing.

What is a thinking thing?

Could it be that a thinking thing isn't?

>>139249424
>there is no such thing as consciousness
says the unconscious one

>>139250022
we're just talking about the soul without using the word "soul" aren't we

>>139247907
All is one. We are individualized portions of infinity experiencing itself through free will and the illusion of separation. The cosmology of this material (densities, logos, macrocos to microcosm) is absolutely fascinating to me.
>lawofone.info

>>139249886
then you wouldnt have to die, id believe anything to escape that horror

>>139247907
Remove your brain then

>>139250326
No because the point is that unconscious beings cannot even form the idea of that question.

>>139250326

What is a wave without a current?

This is the nature of the paradox you are setting.

>>139250248
yes i get what you're saying, but beyond that, where all potential is possible, there is no actual meaning. all life could end, but it would have no effect on true reality, or conscious awareness itself. that continues on forever regardless. nothing can touch it, so it really has no meaning, and by implication this dream we are currently experiencing has no point.

>>139247907
Why not remove your brain, just to see how conscious you are then.

>>139247907
>The Brain Does Not Generate Consciousness

Why don't you get a lobotomy then OP?

This shit is already science. The brain is what causes you to be aware and it uses quantum effects to do that.

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Y'all think the brain be like it do, but it ain't even like what it does.

>>139250609
>quantum

>>139248739

They don't, they just alter the contents of your consciousness. Your consciousness remains exactly the same - if you don't appreciate this, meditate more.

>>139250360
Yes and no. I think it's perfectly reasonable to argue that consciousness might be something qualitatively different than other observable things out there. Does that make it a soul? I dunno.

>>139250609
i think a better way to phrase it is the brain "allows" you to be aware, not "cause" it

>>139248877
>CNS projects consciousness.

There is exactly zero evidence for this.

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>>139247907
Brain damage fundamentaly changes your life from personality to speech to consciousness... I have had real world encounters with family. They changed so much. My father use to be a hard working man went lazy and hated eating dinner with the family. My mom had it worse. Both had some form of brain ailment. I strongly believe the brain creates conscious and it's just the combination of all our sense mixed with them chemicals in our brain.

>>139250521
I would argue that we have no reason to believe that the ability to think or remember directly contributes to consciousness.

>>139247907
>brain damage can impair cognitive abilities and even basic speech
>multiple concussions are blamed for old football players and boxers not being able to formulate coherent sentence
but yea OPs right no proof its all just coincidence and pseudo science

>>139248839
/thread

>>139247907
>Anyone who thinks that it does is essentially a dumb animal
>>139248116
>Then what does?
>>139248570
>Who knows?
So if there's not a shred of evidence in favor of your favorite fairy tale either, but you call those who merely think differently 'dumb animals', then what epithet do you deserve, far below 'dumb animal'? Nigger?

>>139250915

Everything has the potential to influence everything else. It's why awareness is crucial.

Brain is a complex network, consciousness is an emergent property. Consciousness is a waste product of life, we are sufficiently complex that our consciousness is "self aware". Consciousness emerges from the material but is not reducible to it, as a work of art is not reducible to the chemical constituents of the paint, or individual brush strokes.

>>139248456
You're a pirate you should understand this dumbass

>>139251079
Question: Does simulating a brain create consciousness? Can AI be conscious? Why?

>>139250729
it's perfectly reasonable to argue anything when everyone involved refuses to define any of their terms or how they relate to one another

>>139250609
>>139250609
>This shit is already science. The brain is what causes you to be aware

Can you link to one single scientific paper, in the history of all of science, that proves that the brain generates consciousness?

>>139250836
It does, my evidence is that I am conscious. Though scientists will never be able to replicate this consciousness and also while the CNS is a part of it, it goes infinitely deep. We thought atoms were the smallest thing in the universe, then quantum, it will never end. They thought that life started on earth from a series of random reactions with atoms and molecules, but in reality it also involved the things those atoms and molecules are made up of interacting, and going infinitely deep.

Just like how we are seeing quantum is affected by observation, it's more complex & goes deeper than we know. That's how the atoms and molecules of the CNS can create consciousness. It is the atoms & molecules but also goes much deeper.

We could never replicate it just by copying the form of those atoms and molecules. We would also have to copy the form of the quantum, and everything else more small than that. But the universe goes infinitely small so that will never be possible.

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>>139250294
Found the article:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gut-feelings-the-second-brain-in-our-gastrointestinal-systems-excerpt/
Also search 'stomach consciousness'.

Your statement about the heart is carries some validity, when you think about poetry, lyrics, symbolism about the heart and so on.
Many people will say that the brain is the primary organ of consciousness. Who knows? It's a compelling mystery.

My view is that all of our organs balance out and that there is no primary organ of consciousness.

My scientist overlords say it so I believe them

>>139251214
yes and yes, because the alternative would be unlike anything other we have witnessed - argument from queerness is a valid argument.

>>139251121
>consciousness is an emergent property.

This is pseudoscience. "Emergent property" = magic.

>>139250521
Sure we might be a conscious entity..But what is that? Sure we know it has the property of consciousness.. But consciousness and what else?Or just consciousness and nothing else at all?

This new field of neural networks is showing us that we can get some pretty unexpected things to emerge from essentially mechanical organisation of parts.

What if consciousness is further down this track, as it seems to be? What if I think the fore I am.. but what I am... is a collection of NOT conscious things?

>>139250326
>>139250521
To elaborate on this, a thinking thing is something that can form ideas. So there's your answer.

>>139250546
>there is no actual meaning. all life could end, but it would have no effect on true reality

Even if all life was to end at the same time, it would eventually spring back up because the point of the universe to give birth to life so that it may experience itself.

>>139251364
>Just like how we are seeing quantum is affected by observation, it's more complex & goes deeper than we know. That's how the atoms and molecules of the CNS can create consciousness.

This is a non sequitur.

>>139249617
Dumb metaphor, your confusing the mechanics with the messaging, whats the analogue with the hairbrush? A synapse? Synapses and neurons are just the medium through which the messaging passes, obviously no one thinks theyre conscious in themselves, they just provide the mechanics for consciousness to happen.

Judging by the fact though no one really knows what consciousness is or how it arises i agree all talk of machine consciousness is bullshit.

>>139250836
Stuart Hameroff, who has worked as an anasthesiologist for over 35 years would disagree. moreover recent research has indicated the brain can generate up to 11 dimensional shapes: the quantum mind.

>>139251485
>Emergent property = magic
no technology is possible, every system is a mere bag of parts, amirite?
when you put together the cogwheels and the clock starts working, that's the manifestation of an emergent property, you idiot.
take the time to understand the basic notions here.

>>139250938
You'd have no arguments to back up that claim.

>>139247907
>There is not so much the thinnest sliver of evidence that the brain generates consciousness.

>humans have biggest brain:bodymass ratio in the animal kingdom
>humans are the most "conscious" of any animal as far as we can measure
>if you damage the brain without hurting the body, a human will live but will not be conscious
>if you damage or disable specific regions of the brain, the human will live, but certain memories or emotions or modes of cognition become impaired

yeah no evidence that consciousness arises from the brain gee whiz

>>139251700
>recent research has indicated the brain can generate up to 11 dimensional shapes
hello, /x/ is that >>>/x/ way. although this entire thread belongs to /x/.

>>139251493
If what I am.. is consciousness.. and ONLY consciousness (I think therefore I am)..

Then all that exists.. must be similar. Of all the things we KNOW FOR SURE exist... all of them are conscious.

Therefore, the origin of everything, the first thing that 'existed'.. most also be conscious.

>>139247907

consciousness is the reaction of your soul to the realization that it is trapped in an alien reality.

It it probably a bit more complicated.

The organic brain is built out of lots of small parts, that make up a larger system.

This larger system in turn seems to fulfill 2 main functions:

- It stores/retrieves memories/data and provides a gateway for passing signals between the body/organism and the consciousness inhabiting the body/organism

- It acts as a vessel for the "soul", which does not mean the traditional concept of soul you assume, but rather some sort of hybrid-interface thing between the "physical" reality layer and the "memetic" reality layer.

So basically the human brain probably is some sort of complex physical-memetical hybrid system and our understanding of reality is still insufficient, when it comes to memetics and information.

>>139249424
>>139249674
>>139249843

Then why am I conscious?

>>139251819
>yeah no evidence that consciousness arises from the brain gee whiz
obviously the brain is just there to cool one's blood. or at least OP's brain does not do much else.

>>139247907
Brain is mean to manifest ego in material world. Without brain ego cannot exist in material world and will either perish (materialist mind) or ascend the starcaise of cosmic counsciousness

>>139249603
Ouroboros isn't a strange loop

>>139247907
good.

I hope atheist cucks choke on it and get a stroke as a result.

>>139247907
Consciousness is an emergent property of the complexity of our brain. It's nothing more than an illusion.

We exist in a universe that makes it possible for such complex emergence to exist. It's the anthropic principle.

Imho, quantum mind theory and IIT (Integrated Information Theory) are the best theories of consciousness

>>139251951
you cant be

>>139248499
Awareness of yourself as a physical AND mental entity: the recognition that your memories, impulses, desires, fears and thoughts are internal creations of yourself, not some exterior "God" speaking to you.
The ability to understand, interpret and create metaphoric memetic constructs and manipulate a metaphoric internal mental space.

Read "On The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" for more.

>>139247907
>implying the brain is not a complex biochemical computer
>perception + development of language led to consciousness
>the main requisites are visual and audio perception
>primitive primates were living in groups because it was profitable
>they had to develop communication to be productive as a group
>the most simplest communication was sound
>eventually they used specific sounds to label most important objects/concepts: food, danger, etc.
>lets say a monkey found a nice berry bush, he can just go back to the pack, point in the direction of where the bush is and yell the sound that denotes food
>over time they created more and more notions and sounds which ends in language
>language is used to communicate with each outher
>but then primates developed an internal dialogue which led to internally defining thoughts and eventually complete consciousness

Kids who are born deaf and are untreated end up retarded and not conscious.
Kids who were isolated from people and never taught a language end up retarded swell and not conscious.

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The brain is just the universe creating itself with our limited 5 senses. All the mass in the universe was compressed in a tiny space until it exploded. So we're just bits and pieces of the universe experiencing itself. The universe is self aware. This thread is the universe discussing itself, from different view points.

>>139252120
Color is nothing more than an illusion, that doesn't it's nothing.

>>139251595
True. But that thing that can form ideas, may itself be composed of non-idea forming things.

And if those things are themslves not conscious, then perhaps they don't exist because to detect them you'd have to use a frame of reference...which itself can be fooled.. and itself can be composed of other non-conscious things.. with non-confirmed existences.

>>139252044

They see loops as constrained within the confines of dichotomous action.

>>139252230
This guy gets it.

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Perhaps people make the connection between brain matter and consciousness because the more you damage brain matter the less aware a human is of his surroundings and himself.

Pretty obvious that consciousness is in the material stuff of the brain. Anyone who says otherwise is special pleading for some metaphysical existence where they are very special and God loves them very much. Grow the fuck up.

humans spend a lot of time doing dumb animal things, actually. We are still very much animals.

>>139247907
We're not really conscious though. When I use psychedelic drugs I'm amazed at how tiny my comprehension is normally. Extrapolating from that we're basically simple automatons that react to our environment with very little thought. Funny how our brains make us believe we know it all when in reality we know relatively nothing and barely consider our actions.

>>139247907
I remember reading a theory on how its actually caused by microstructures found throughtout the entire body that generate it, and this theory being backed up by that recent study in Switzerland that found out the human brain thinks in 11 dimensions, like the cpu part of a computer, but the actual awareness would be more like the electrical charges flowing through a computer's circuits,

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>>139251604
>This is a non sequitur.
Yeah well people also make spelling errors on 4chan, I'm not writing a scientific paper here. It's not just atoms and molecules which cause phenomena, it's also the things those are made up of.

>>139251658
>the analogue with the hairbrush
The analogy is that people think computers are special because they are fast and use electrical circuits, but in reality they are no different than gears or any ridiculous object strung together to make a computer. And the first calculators like pic related are no different than computers. The only difference is computers are faster, use electricity, and are hooked up to imaging/audio devices.

If pic related isn't conscious, then 100000 together is not conscious.

>>139251173
Underrated

I think consciousness is either from the heart or from the electricity inside our bodies one could say the heart pumping blood through our bodies and electrical impulses are consciousness

>>139251951
Your asking me this because the array of your past memories bounce electrica signals in such a way that you think saying this in some retarded way would help you survive and reproduce what your brain is hard-wired for.

It might be slightly malfunctioning but it's good keks all the same.

>>139252270
>Um, gears and mechanisms are pretty clearly apparent properties, not emergent.
listen, troll, I have little patience for so much pretend retardedness. gear up your act.

>>139252413
link https://www.sciencealert.com/new-study-discovers-your-brain-actually-works-in-up-to-11-dimensions

>>139251819
>>humans are the most "conscious" of any animal as far as we can measure

When has consciousness ever been measured?

>>139252270
What about Neural Networks?

>>139250915
Brain also decay over time.
I I heard pressure chamber treatment can help to what you said.(the treatment should be a few sessions, one time is not enough)

>>139252421
>If pic related isn't conscious, then 100000 together is not conscious.
if a transistor can't extract square roots then 100000 of them, properly arranged, also cannot.

>>139247907
>There is not so much the thinnest sliver of evidence that the brain generates consciousness.


no brain=no conscoiusness if your brain is gone you essentialy lose consciousness.
it isnt hard to draw the conclusion op.

>>139251853
>Therefore, the origin of everything, the first thing that 'existed'.. most also be conscious.

Correct! Pat yourself on the back, you are capable of a higher grade of logical thought than 99% of plebs out there.

>>139251469
I'm not arguing from queerness. I'm going to make the argument that we have no reason to believe AI can be conscious, precisely because we have no idea what consciousness actually is or how to measure it, but to say it doesn't exist creates problems as well.

1) We have no reason to believe AI can be conscious, because AI is created by nothing more than symbol manipulation.(This is how computers work)
2) Symbols hold no meaning outside of consciousness to begin with. The letter "A" written on a piece of paper holds no meaning, it's just ink on paper.
3) To say that AI can be conscious is to suggest that consciousness can be conjured out of thin air by symbols.

The fact that we could simulate a brain down to the neuron, and that brain would look and act exactly we would expect, but also lack the ability for a kind of "first person subjective experience" is what leads me to believe that consciousness is probably quantitatively different than other observable things out there.

>>139251951
>Then why am I happy? Happiness must exist!
>Then why is my cum white? Whiteness must exist!
>Then why is OP a faggot? Faggotness must exist!
Consciusness, just like happiness, whiteness and faggotness, is an abstract concept, not an object that can be generated like OP suggests. The idea that consciousness is more than an abstract concept is an illusion.

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>>139248570
>But there's no evidence the brain generates it

Fuck off retard

>>139252227
>Kids who are born deaf and are untreated end up retarded and not conscious.
>Kids who were isolated from people and never taught a language end up retarded swell and not conscious.

You have absolutely no way of knowing that either of these statements is true.

>>139252268
You're making it all convoluted for no reason. An idea can either exist or not exist and only thinking beings can hold ideas because by definition, non-thinking things can not form ideas.

>>139247907
it does trought, even trought there are no intrusive reliable basis, there are many ocurrences where, damage to the brain causes several consciousnes disorders,

by believing that the consciousness origins comes fron somewhere else. implyies that

>the origin is able to interact with the brain in someway.

if its able to interact, then its at least partly material or linked.

if its mater it cant fit the same space as another mater.

>>139252209
so it really is an "i hate god but i still long for transcendent meaning" deal?
i had a hunch but it's always fun to make people say it lol

>>139249674
No... Try drugs and be in a k hole or others and have absolutely no sense of self, time, or earthly reality, but still painfully conscious.

>>139252618

I don't even know what you are asking, but it seems like you think everything is an emergent property.

Do you think blocking X rays is an emergent property of layering lead?

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>>139252864

>you can't understand it

That's never stopped me, senpai.

>>139247907
>>139249303
>>139248911
Did you fags just finish playing Zero Escape or something

>>139252715
>if your brain is gone you essentialy lose consciousness.

You have absolutely no way of knowing this is true.

>>139251658
Some have come to the consensus that the brain is an "antenna" of sorts. Wouldn't this imply that there are frequencies in the air that we are receiving. And if that's the case, we could theoretically create a synthetic brain capable of picking up those frequencies, thus creating a mechanical consciousness.

>>139253085
Its also entirely fascinating that dissociatives even work in such a clean way. Separating conscious experience from the memories and bindings of your person.

>>139253004

An idea can both exist and not exist, by nature of language itself. If you have no means to explain or express an idea (language is fallible in many areas), does it not still lie dormant in the back of your mind?

>>139252615
decades of research into the ability of animals to perceive, communicate, deduce/problem solve, and remember things.

>>139252674
>if a transistor can't extract square roots then 100000 of them, properly arranged, also cannot.
Yes it can because we are talking about something scientifically observable. Not 1 calculator isn't conscious, 1000 calculators together aren't conscious, then 1000000 together summons a demon from a different dimension which has a consciousness.

Transistors doing square roots is an extrapolation of their basic ability. Computers being conscious is not like solving a math problem, it's saying we can use those transistors to magically make something which has nothing to do with their basic ability.

Transistors strung together and programmed with an AI bot can take speech as input and output more speech, but the program doesn't become so realistic at some point that it actually gains a person behind its eyes. It is always just an imitation.

>>139252230
holy shite, now i can say that the biomass that i know as myself.
some day was a bunch of other people too!

>>139253037
No, nothing of the type.

>>139253302
This. And arguably, a perfect simulation of a brain down to the neurons would also not create consciousness.(At least, we have no reason to believe it would)

>>139253221
If you smash your hard drive with a hammer, where do you think your anime porn goes?

>>139253280
Even if you can't express an idea in words, if you hold an idea in your mind then it exists by definition. Thing is, we can even discuss ideas that don't exist because if you can discuss them, then they exist.

>>139253004
I guess the big question is can non-thinking things exist and can we be sure of this?

If we can be sure.. how?

If non-thinking things' CANT exist.. then existence itself is paradoxical. Because it seems thinking things can be made of non-thinking things... and non-thinking things can't exist.


IF we can't be sure, then either this is something that CAN'T be known.. or this is something that when we eventually figure out, will mean that "I think therefore I am".. the most 'rigorous' part of modern philosophical thought is flawed..

OR

Existence itself is paradoxical.

>>139253085

>what is subconscious.

In your k hole you keep breathing, heart keeps beating, food keeps digesting, etc.

You've altered your CONCIOUSNESS with PHYSICAL MATTER. How does that work from your perspective?

>>139253503
Of course non-thinking things can exist, we're surrounded by them. It's just non-thinking things cannot form ideas so if you can form an idea then you are a thinking thing.

>>139253496

If an idea can't be expressed into words, it's just an inspiration. Definition brings form.

>>139251951
the self is an illusion

>>139248911
Stop getting your metaphysics from escape-the-room VNs.

>>139253647
Now we're just getting into semantics.

>>139253637
but how can you prove they exist?

>>139252230
This is correct I believe

>>139253297
>decades of research into the ability of animals to perceive, communicate, deduce/problem solve, and remember things.

None of those things have anything to do with consciousness.

things are just as they are and they are not anything else

>>139253718

>Now we're just getting into semantics.

:^).

It's a field as all-defining as mathematics, literally.

People take it for granted.

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>>139248748
Kachow

>>139253730
I make a small leap of faith and assume that if everyone else can perceive what I perceive, then it exists. Let's not delve into solipsism now.

>>139253316

Ugh. This comment is so babby's last blue pill it hurts to remember taking it. Such a shallow and false perception, held together with mere poetry.

Truth is beautiful, but beauty isn't truth.

>>139248911
>>139248339
Pretty cool theory

>>139253637
Big idea in 19th century philosophy and the movie the matrix was that because we percieve the world through our 5 senses, and those senses can be fooled...

we can't be sure anything actually exists. The only thing we can be sure of that exists is whatever is there doing the 'doubting' or 'thinking' whether everything else exists.

eg. I think (I am a thinking thing).. therefore i am (i exist.)

>>139248339
>Removing brain removes consciousness.
>Removing lungs, heart, liver, or both kidneys removes consciousness
Consciousness is the sum of parts, the brain is where you experience consciousness, brain stem and spine regulate the Central Nervous System.

>>139249819
www.julianjaynes.org

The brain producing consciousness is like Sonic the Hedgehog producing me.

>>139247907
lobotomy is a physical procedure that will forever change what you call consciousness.

the meme is the religion, not the materialism.

>>139254126
I think half of us think we're arguing about general aspects of consciousness, while the other half are arguing about the ability to experience at its most basic level.

To "experience consciousness" requires consciousness/first person experience to exist in the first place.

>drooling retard
>conscious
pick one

Also once AI is created all of this shit discussion will be gone forever. It'll prove once and for all that consciousness exists in computation and the brain is a computer that generates our consciousness not some magic satellite dish.

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>>139254301
this tbqhwysenpai

consciousness is just the sum of what your senses make you feel right now, some thoughts you didn't even chose to have and the part of the memory you can reach

you're looking too far because you can't accept that your reality is extremely simple

the unconscious is way more interesting and usefull though

This is all bullshit, you guys don't know shit.

>reality is an illusion
Reality is still real nonetheless. Stop being a hippie idiot. Objectiveness is a thing.
>b-but we can't be sure!
That doesn't make any of your ideas a fact.
>b-but it's so weird how we think...
SHUT THE FUCK UP. Brains are computer machines, that's all.

Materialism is the only answer. Stop being fucking retarded, you pot smoking useless cunts.

>>139254450
Nope.

See this:
>>139252783

Consciousness comes from being alive. You're alive because of your body and brain.
God is Holy. Holy means 'Separate.'
Use your Life to know God. Stop peddling mystical gnosis about some magic dust or goop called 'Consciousness'

>>139253004
Ideas are a type of information, and information does not require thinking beings to exist.
DNA is a form of information. Ideas that create themselves.

>>139249617
Your mistake is the assumption that conciousness is an intrinsic or aggregate property belonging to specific natter, rather than an emergent property of patterns or processes of matter.

Neurons, transistors, gears and pullies, stones picked up and moved around one at a time; all can be substrate dot conciousness, albeit with different speeds of thought.

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>>139254112
see >>139253936

Even in The Matrix, there were a group of people who perceived reality differently from everyone else (those outside the matrix and those in). Right now I have no reason to believe the computer I'm typing on doesn't exist especially since I have people around me who can confirm that my perception of it matches up with theirs.

>>139254553
If yout hink that's the only type of AI that can be created your mind is located in the stone age.

as far as i know im the only concious human on earth

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>He does not read the Bible for answers

Its like you want to stay ignorant.

>>139254491
>That doesn't make any of your ideas a fact.

No it doesn't, but the foundation of western science and understanding is being able to rigorously prove something. We can't rigorously prove reality.

Our best attempt is "I think therefore I am".

>>139254126

You can replace someone's heart or other organs and they will still have consciousness. You can't replace their brain

>>139254603
That's a fallacious argument.

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>>139248697

smart

>>139249167
>brain basically useless.
Yeah yours fucking would be pal

>>139247907
>>139248116
>Then what does?
The whole world. This is why astrology is so important conceptually. The state of the entire universe at the time of your conception determines your personality.

>>139254718
>the foundation of western science and understanding is being able to rigorously prove something. We can't rigorously prove reality.
But we can assume it is roughly as we see.

AND we can prove that at the very least reality is a thing.

>>139254865
Nah the brain IS consciousness. It's not connected to anything else.

>>139254728
Hypothetically, you could, but we just haven't figured out how to do so yet.
Especially in a way that preserves ego continuity.

>>139247907
Not only people fall for the materialist meme, but they make absolutely moronic conclusions about brain states. I mean saying that the brain generates consciousness is something you can at least argue, but there are so much stupid things materialists say that you have to ask if materialism is some sort of mental disease that affects the faculty of reason. My favorite is
>you can create a feeling of the presence of god by stimulating a certain region of the brain, therefore god doesn't exist

>>139254662

See:
>>139254718


You can't rigorously prove the keyboard isn't an illusion.

In the matrix they couldn't prove that 'zion' and the black guy wasn't ALSO another 'layer' of the matrix.

Inception explored this idea a bit further with the idea that you can't 'detect' when your in a dream.. However they add a 'magical' plot device of something that only acts one way in a dream, and another way in reality.

Notice how the 'magic' is necessary to prove reality DOES exist.. as opposed to doesn't exist?

>>139254925

If you replaced their brain they would be a different person

>>139254682
When people say AI, they usually mean AI created using turing machines. If one were to make a perfect physical copy of an organic brain, yeah, I think we would have more reason to believe that it was conscious.

>>139248456
Fucking Christ I can't believe I'm the only one who got the reference. Fucking bunch of newfags.

>>139254126
No, removing lungs, heart, liver or both kidneys removes life. The human cannot live without those organs.

A human body can live without the brain, but it will never be conscious.

There are people with mechanical hearts and who have lost arms, legs, ears, ALL OF THE SKIN, teeth, eyes, and lungs, but if they have an intact brain, they have consciousness.

But you can disable/damage very small, specific parts of the brain and in turn disable/damage almost any aspect of a human's personality (ie the outward existential evidence that they are conscious)

>>139247907
they actualy did a study and found an area in a few brain damage patients. those with damage on a specific area were in comas

granted it was only a dozen people they examined, but it's still an interesting thing to note

>>139248116
Mostly chemical and electrical reactions that help you control your body, and also some autonomous functions of it.

That doesn't necessarily means your consciousness is at your brain, it's simply an organ which helps your body to function and helps you to control your body.

>>139254922
>But we can assume it is roughly as we see.
This isn't scientific, nor is it the way of rigorous western science.

If we collapsed the entire world into a mathematical system. This wouldn't hold up.

Court of law, it'd hold up. In the court of rigorous logic though it wouldn't.

>>139254491

The body is just a biological machine we puppeteer, but we have no idea how it happened, why we're in this body, where we were before it and where we go after. it

>>139254974
Take a look at the pic I used again. If you leave your brain too open, you end up thinking nothing is real. Don't let such thoughts land you somewhere you regret.

>>139254925
Wouldn't a brain transplant from one body to another (assuming the transplant resulted in Alice 's consciousness living in Bob's body and vice versa) just go to prove that consciousness comes from the brain, and not in a non-physical or holistic "body and brain" explanation?

>>139254491
>>139254682
>>139254922
t. 20 something dude who watches epic youtube science fuck yeah videos

>>139254307
>the meme is the religion

What religion? I'm not religious.

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>>139247907
>No material evidence that brain generates consciousness
>"materialist meme"
Speak for yourself, soulless animal.

https://phys.org/news/2014-01-discovery-quantum-vibrations-microtubules-corroborates.html

>>139255191
>where we were before it and where we go after. it

Nowhere and nowhere. Consciousness arises and dies with the brain that creates it.

The belief that somehow your consciousness outlasts its brain (other than as a memory) is simply a refusal for the brain to accept that it will die.

>>139254703
>as far as i know im the only concious human on earth

Correct! Another logical thinker, well done.

>>139248116
>>139247907
That's like saying that the symbols 1, 2, and 3 generate mathematics. Consciousness is like numbers. It's not physically real, but it is metaphysically real.

Suppose your consciousness could be represented in an extremely large list of numbers. That list exists whether there's a physical symbol for it or not. That physical symbol in this case would be your brain.

>>139255014
Yes most of those types of AI would just be a thing mechanically generating very complex responses, and could be said to be MECHANICALLY conscious, but it wouldn't be organically conscious, like there's no saying they would feel like they are a something behind an "eye"

>>139255137
You're here arguing about some unscientific bullshit about the matrix movie, and that things aren't real because you can't prove it's real and you're telling me about something not being scientific?

Doing anything requires the assumption that reality is roughly as we perceive it.

>If we collapsed the entire world into a mathematical system. This wouldn't hold up.
Yes it would. Because we see things roughly as they are, just not the whole picture. That doesn't mean we see it WRONG by the most part.

>>139255191
We are still in this body, because we are the material that our brain is made of.

>>139255236
No shut the fuck up you hippie cunt. Go smoke weed and watch retarded new age videos about spiritualism, virtual reality and ancient aliens. You're a piece of trash.

>>139255061
>>139248339
oreilly was /ourguy/

>>139255606
a literal brainlet

>>139247907

Brain damage, mental deterioration in old age, these both can cause changes in people's personality, make them totally different people due to changes in the brain. Therefore we can conclude that personality and memory are generated by the brain and can change due to issues with the brain, this also means these would cease to exist when the brain is destroyed

>>139249253
No, you just made an artificial conscious receiver.

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>>139252230
no its not

>>139255001
Which is what I meant by ego continuity.
At the same time though, you're partly wrong. The brain continuously changes and replenishes the molecules comprise it.
If you were to replace that persons mind in a gradual and sufficiently granular manner with a suitable substrate, they could be considered the same person.

>>139255201
Now now, if that's where logic takes us, that's where logic takes us.

But we ain't there yet!

>>139255069

In other words, fucking up the antenna scrambles the ability for the TV function properly, despite the fact that otherwise it's it perfect functional capacity.

>>139255695
Masturbate more on your bullshit then.

>>139255216
Yes, but also see >>139255716

>>139255541
>microtubules

Microtubules = magical thinking. It's pure speculation with absolutely zero evidence.

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>>139247907
The brain definitely does not produce consciousness.

/ig/ Idealism General

QUICK RUNDOWN
>Dr. Godehard Bruentrup: What Is Idealism?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDR5i6z4L8c

>In philosophy, idealism is the group of philosophies which assert that reality, or reality as we can know it, is fundamentally mental, mentally constructed, or otherwise immaterial.

ENCYCLOPEDIA ENTRIES
>Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/idealism/
>Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy
https://www.rep.routledge.com/articles/thematic/idealism/v-1

ACADEMIC ARTICLES
>Eliminating the Physical
https://philpapers.org/rec/ELLETP-2
>A New Epistemic Argument for Idealism
https://philpapers.org/rec/SMIANE-2
>How To Avoid Solipsism While Remaining An Idealist
https://philpapers.org/rec/HENHTA

BOOKS
>George Berkeley-Principles of Human Knowledge
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/4723/4723-h/4723-h.htm
>George Berkeley-Three Dialogues between Hylas and Philonous
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/4724/4724-h/4724-h.htm
>John Foster-A World For Us: The Case for Phenomenalistic Idealism
http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=0DB12BBA4A197862E272211B7A059880

YOUTUBE
>The Introspective Argument:
Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l1lQMCOguw
Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4DyfIsj8FU
>Dr. David Chalmers explains why materialism is false
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdbs-HUAxC8
>Why substance dualism is roundly rejected in contemporary philosophy of mind
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVbG90kr1B0

>>139255545

You can't prove that because you don't know the answer to any of those problems.

>>139255545
>Consciousness arises and dies with the brain that creates it.

There is not even so much as the tiniest skerrick of evidence that this is true.

>>139247907

ok
grand claim
care to substantiate?

>>139249674
this is presuming memory is the main thing for an intelligent decision, let me propose this to you, say your brain was wired in exactly the same way but you remembered absolutely nothing, will you make the same decision or not?

>>139255069
>A human body can live without the brain, but it will never be conscious.
so like this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydranencephaly

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>>139247907

>>139255887
>it's magic because I didn't understand what it meant
Thinking isn't magic. Get over it.

>>139255606

Umm... What does this even mean?

It's like you heard the word matrix and chimped out.

>>139255698

No, it's entirely possible that the consciousness is a relative blank slate passenger that is influenced by mental composition.

>>139255698
>Therefore we can conclude that personality and memory are generated by the brain and can change due to issues with the brain, this also means these would cease to exist when the brain is destroyed

This has absolutely nothing to do with consciousness.

>>139256045
this no longer works, because we can say a computer thinks therefore they are

>>139248570
then how do you know it's not the brain?

>>139255698
now is intelligence consciousness or just a side effect?

>>139247907
Then how do you explain that doing things to your brain alters your consciousness...??

>>139256160
>Computers think!
no they don't:

John Searle's The Chinese Room - 60-Second Adventures in Thought
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TryOC83PH1g

>>139256279
in the case of the brain being an antenna it makes perfect sense, you do not get any signal from wifi in a metal box

Those of you who don't believe consciousness is tied to the brain should smoke some salvia. I had a friend who smoked salvia and thought he was literally a chair. He believed that he was a fucking chair instead of a person.

>>139256279
Monism. Since they are the same thing they can interact.

>>139256006
You would make decisions a certain way, but they would still be based on memories because we use them a lot.

>>139256098
That part was just me calling you out on saying unscientific things in an attempt to show that you're right, while at the same time then saying that something as simple as assuming reality is roughly as we see is unscientific in an attempt to disprove this very basic concept on FUCKING BEING ALIVE.

>>139256232
He doesn't, it's just his fantasy.

>>139256135
Says you, the guy who thinks thinking is magic.

>>139255785
A better analogy is a computer with a built-in screen.
The screen is your physical non-brain body, with input and output methods.
The motherboard inside the case and everything attached to it is the brain. The clever things you can do using the computer and its input/outputs are generated by the motherboard and the components attached to it. Destroy the GPU and suddenly you can't run games too good. If you let bad outside influences inside (physical contaminants damaging the hardware or malware damaging the software) then your computer wont run so good. Break or remove a critical component like power supply, CPU or memory and your computer will not run.

Your computer is not being beamed a constant stream of information like a television, which is merely a one-way receptor for an unchangeable destiny.

Your television analogy might work if we were all being controlled by something we cannot and may never be able to detect and therefore falsify.

>>139247907

Nice intellectual wank bro, I'm sure you are a better person than before it! lay down the weed and new age book section

>>139256102

If this is true then when you die you are also a blank slate with zero memories and personality so incapable of comprehending anything, it would work for reincarnation but not an afterlife

>>139247907
The body is merely a vessel for the brain. The brain is as much a person or human as a tractor is a hay bale.

The body is a machine to keep the brain alive and everything your body does is to serve the brain. As far as I'm concerned the brain is an alien parasite.

>>139256435
this again is presuming intelligence is consciousness, and a computer can make more intelligent decisions then humans at a faster rate, which is the whole measurement of IQ

>>139256537
The idea behind the matrix movie was that reality could be an illusion. Yes it's a movie, yes it's fiction but the ideas behind it are solid.

It's not perfectly logical to say we are 100% sure reality exists.

>>139255792
If you gradually change the colour of your wallpaper from green to blue, even if you do it by 0.001% difference each day, you are still switching from one colour to another.

I grant you that the brain constantly changes anyway, so we are always "changing colour" naturally, but that happens slowly and gradually over time, not in an instant.

Same rules apply.

>>139252783
>3) To say that AI can be conscious is to suggest that consciousness can be conjured out of thin air by symbols.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

>>139248499
Subjective experience

>>139256006
depends on the decision to be made nigger.

>>139256690
>this again is presuming intelligence is consciousness

No it's not. Watch the actual video instead of attacking straw men.

>>139252227
>Untreated
Does this mean anything? How is deafness treated? By learning other forms of language sure. But is there some "spectrum" of how well you can normalize a deaf or otherwise handicapped person? Can this person not gather information from their other senses?

>>139256693
Of course it could be an illusion, but you have no real reason to ASSUME it is, and therefore you have no real reason to ACT AS IF it is an illusion. Of course you already know this otherwise you would be raping a kangaroo or something.

>>139256135

It has everything to so with consciousness, our personality and memories are who we are, if there was any essence of spirit it would be lacking of these traits and therefore would no more be you than a shit you leave in the toilet so is irrelevant

>>139255933
>>139255971
There's also literally zero evidence disproving what I asserted in clean, easy, FALSIFIABLE statements.
My theory has a way of being disproven; Just go find me a ghost, faggot, and I'll accept that I'm wrong.

>>139256135
well yes it does
its very close to the periphery of the subject and reality (neurological) of consciousness

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>>139256499
>take consciousness altering chemical that makes you feel a certain predictable way because it changes your brain chemistry to prove your consciousness isn't just brain chemistry

hmm, really altered my brain chemistry in a predictable way

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Animals can be far smarter than their brain size suggests.

Prove it

>>139256693
And reality being an illusion does NOT mean that there isn't an objective reality. It can be clouded, it can be impossible to perceive, but it's still there other wise there would be nothing.

>>139249080
Animals do it out of instinct. They have no theory of mind which to project on what another creature might possibly do, that's unique to humans as far as we know. So is depression, since we know we are decaying, dying every day. Just like all the others that resemble us have done.

>>139255887
>"Gravity = magical thinking. It's pure speculation with absolutely zero evidence."
I don't expect perceptive depth or intuitively profound curiosity from soulless animals such as yourself.
Perhaps if you die, it will not have been a tragedy.

our RNA is what creates consciousness or rather is the property that acts as a matrix for consciousness to bind to, if you retards kept up with current science discoveries you'd know

>>139256537
well let's look at a machine learning algorithm, the end point of a machine learning algorithm is to make a function that given an input you get the correct output. now this is what i am talking about say we have a machine learning algorithm that works for x number of years and accumulates a lot of data sets or memories if you will, now say it gives out a function to you. and you take that function and put that function into another machine, that machine should theoritically preform just as well as the first machine without having to learn anymore. this can be abstracted to humans

>>139256848
So people with amnesia are less conscious or unconscious?

>>139256446
>>139256508

>all that substantiation of said claims

wew lad

>>139256929
That just means their brain is efficient.

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>>139256941
k: >>139255912

>>139248116
Magnets don't really generate a magnetic field. They modify a field that's a fundamental property of reality which is always there. In the same way brains don't generate consciousness, it's just expressed in brains.

It doesn't matter how detailed a model of the mind we create it will never explain why we aren't p-zombies. We may find out nature dictates that a complex enough decision making machine or whatever will always be conscious but that doesn't explain why. This still makes consciousness a fundamental property of reality.

>>139247907
Conscienceness is just how you brain interpts the input from external senses. Your conscience is just what you brain can process. Once you lose all your senses you are considered unconscience. Nothing mythical about it.

I mean unless you define conscience differently.

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>>139256913
>come from the land were English was developed but still fuck up in basic reading comprehension

>>139257012
see: >>139255912

>>139255912
sorry if it doesnt then its outside of falsifiability

so, you lose

>>139256279

Think bunny ears on old school TVs. Physically altering the antenna results I'm a TV that can translate a signal and function better. You can even get an entirely different station by physically turning the dial.

>>139256803
no i did watch the video, and what he says is that the machine does not understand chinese but fakes it does, but this goes back to how is this any different then a human?

>>139256880
oh god
goto wikipedia:
"list of logical fallacies"
namely "burden of proof"
and "absence of evidence"

>>139255545
Dear materialist degenerate, please explain this phenomenon:
https://www.amazon.com/Many-Lives-Masters-Prominent-Psychiatrist/dp/0671657860

>>139255912

tldr

Can I get a quick rundown

>>139257154
see:
>>139257169

>>139252783
>3) To say that AI can be conscious is to suggest that consciousness can be conjured out of thin air by symbols.
Just look at how hard it is to explain this to people. I imagine one day they will convince all the retarded people to upload their 'consciousness' to a computer and get euthanized because it's so eco friendly. In reality they will just be making copies of their personality and imitating them through AI.

The argument for it is literally
>WELL YOU DONT KNOW FOR 100% SURE THAT CONSCIOUSNESS CANT BE GENERATED OUT OF THIN AIR
it's christcuck tier

>>139257269
see:
>>139257261

>>139257008
Yes. In fact without memory you'd develop dissociative personality disorder. Some report being happier than they ever were that have.

>>139256715
>I grant you that the brain constantly changes anyway, so we are always "changing colour" naturally, but that happens slowly and gradually over time, not in an instant.
>Same rules apply.
Exactly what I mean; you are not the person you were a year ago, nor a month ago, nor a day ago, nor a second ago.
You are define and changed by continuous stimulus and the physical, neurological changes caused by stimulus.

This is why I specified ego continuity, not ego equivalency.

>>139252783
>>139256730
Computers are not symbolic; they are physical systems which we interact with via symbolic interface.

>>139247907
Consciousness is not generated, it is.

It's an interesting proposition but you can't really prove it so what's the point of this thread?

>>139256929
New Caledonia crows actually have a very high brain:mass ratio. Birds are light as fuck, hollow bones and not much meat on them.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18262356

They are literally the humans of the bird world, the brainchads.

>A general correlation exists between brain weight and higher cognitive ability in birds and mammals. In birds this relationship is especially evident in corvids. These animals are well-known for their flexible behavior and problem-solving abilities, and have relatively large brains associated with a pallial enlargement. At the behavioral level, New Caledonian crows stand out amongst corvids because of their impressive object manipulation skills both in the wild and in the laboratory. However, nothing is known about the relative size of their brains. Here we show that NC crows have highly encephalised brains relative to most other birds that have been studied. We compared the relative brain size of five NC crows with combined data for four passerine species (7 European carrion crows, 2 European magpies, 3 European jays and 4 domestic sparrows) and found that NC crows had significantly larger brains. A comparison only with the seven carrion crows also revealed significantly larger brains for NC crows. When compared with brain data for 140 avian species from the literature, the NC crow had one of the highest degrees of encephalisation, exceeding that of the 7 other Corvidae in the data set.

>>139247907
You are dumb.

>>139252783
>The fact that we could simulate a brain down to the neuron, and that brain would look and act exactly we would expect, but also lack the ability for a kind of "first person subjective experience" ...
this is not a fact, it's something we don't know and I can't think of a reason to assume it's true.

>>139257385

i think by generated some may mean "an emergent phenomena"

>>139252783
however we understand everything and our decisions come form symbol manipulation

>>139256880
>There's also literally zero evidence disproving what I asserted in clean, easy, FALSIFIABLE statements.

We don't need to disprove it, we just need to ask you to provide evidence for your assertion. You are utterly incapable of doing so.

>>139257006
Yea, but as we are right now we ACTIVELY look into our memories and then consulting how we feel in our present state of mind, even if we already have a notion of how to act beforehand. We would be missing an integral step of our decision making, so it could be said that we would react differently. In other words we wouldn't be able to actively compare things to our past. Keep in mind that our brain doesn't act the in same PRECISE way as a computer.

>>139257442
it is necessarily a fact
it can only not be a fact when you bring non-falsifiable concepts into it

>>139252783
>but also lack the ability for a kind of "first person subjective experience
Why would it?

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39KB, 1000x893px

>>139257169
you realize that scientism is unfalsifiable right...?

stop making excuses to not address arguments

>>139256541

>Your television analogy might work if we were all being controlled by something we cannot and may never be able to detect and therefore falsify.

It's an analogy for a reason. It was also used as an example. Yours is also good, but also assumes that we aren't beamed from somewhere, which is also prone to the same falsifying problems my analogy is.

In actuality, it's all irrelevant because analogies for things we don't understand in the slightest are going to be far less than perfect by default unless we're lucky or already know what the fuck we're talking about.

>>139257269
>>139257261
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>139257344
You can forget everything about your own life and still be a perfectly conscious amnesiac. The structure of the brain encodes things that amnesia can't remove.

>>139257442
And there are more feedback systems in the human body than the human brain. Even the bacteria in our guts can affect our overall personality and consciousness. You'd have to simulate the entire system.

>>139257442
p.s.
i.e. unless you assert there is something "outside" of physics going on inside or with the brain, which again, is non-falsifiable

>>139252864
Indeed, and I would argue that this is what truly separates man from beast, it is our ability to conceive of abstracts. Even lesser animals that have decent levels of intelligence can engage in rudimentary reasoning and logical thinking. Crows, dolphins, etc. They can solve problems, they seem to also recognize themselves in a mirror, although whether or not this is relevant is still debatable. However we have no evidence that thse animals are capable of abstraction. This is the key, isnt it? What else would explain why man is the only animal that creates these ideas of god, of afterlife, of cosmic meaning, of virtue and vice, of good and evil, of progress and regression, etc. All abstracts. And what is also abstract is theidea of consciousness. It is an abstraction of everything the brain does, of the various complex and simple calculations and processes it engages in, and how they interact with one another long term, this is all abstracted into "consciousness". Do deer think this way? Probably not, and yet they can still reason basically as individual entities. A deer can think about what it needs to do and what it likes or doesnt like based on pain and pleasure. But does it conceive of itself doing so? Probably not, therefore it has no conception of consciousness.

>>139256666

That's correct, super Satan.

>>139257279
The quick rundown is in the very post you're commenting on:

QUICK RUNDOWN
>Dr. Godehard Bruentrup: What Is Idealism?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDR5i6z4L8c

In philosophy, idealism is the group of philosophies which assert that reality, or reality as we can know it, is fundamentally mental, mentally constructed, or otherwise immaterial.

I Think therefore I am.

>>139257596
and i am saying that looking into the memories part is how we learn and train our neural networks more, what if we have the neural network function exactly the same and ran the input through it but this time we could not access the memories? then we should have the same answer even though it does not have memory input in a direct fashion

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>>139249843
My Heideggernigger

>>139257671
You'd be "awake" but you'd have zero sense of self. Without a day to day narrative of your life you can't form one. They have done studies on just this phenomenon.

>>139257594
>my side has no burden of proof for the claim that consciousness doesnt come from the brain

>no-one has ever produced consciousness that wasnt from the brain or something mimicking the brain

>no-one's consciousness has ever flown into a different body or come back to prove to us that their consciousness exists

>the burden of proof is on the people who claim that consciousness comes from the brain
>they have decades of evidence of changing consciousness with surgery, drugs
>not enough evidence

>>139257342
>Claim: Consciousness arises and dies with the brain that creates it
>Reply: Phenomenon of "past life regression," as detailed by professional psychiatrists
This is not a logical fallacy. It is contrary evidence. Do you understand this phrase? Or do you lack conscious comprehension? Burden of proof lies on the claimant to explain the persistence of this phenomenon. Indeed, all evidence that contradicts the claim that "consciousness arises and dies with the brain that creates it"

While an explanation is considered, feel free to go back and consult the classical philosophy of logic before being a verifiable retard.

>>139257640
>scientism

thats not how SCIENCE nor falsifiability works

please, get a clue:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical_evidence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testability

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

youre welcome