Fascism and Freedom

>>138848981
Is Cultured Thug steve1989mreinfo?

>>138849145
I'm not sure.

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>>138848981
>I've been seeing lately that Libertarians, AnCaps and Minarchists are more stubborn than the Left in general when it comes to discussing Fascism, have any other Fascists here come to this same realisation?

It's the influx of newfags who dont know any better due to the spread of /pol/'s name. It only got this bad as of June.

>>138848981
The Left is authoritarian, so there is more than enough in common with fascism.

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>>138849441
Fascism doesn't concern itself with "Left vs Right" though, I am generally more inline with the "Third Position".

>>138849441
>being this reductionist and intellectually dishonest about political theory
Nope, not how political axioms work

The issue is all the newfags who only got "redpilled" last year, and they still haven't accepted that libertarianism is bullshit and directly leads to this sort of shit. The problem with libertarians is that they hold fast to their moral axiom of "muh NAP" no matter what. To them, logical consistency with the NAP matters more than actually doing good for you people and your society.

And then you have sophists like Moly who argue everything from a hypothetical "free society" ancapistan that's NEVER FUCKING EXISTED, so whenever any problems get brought up, he can just say "well that's not REAL capitalism!" and the shit out some hypothetical scenario.

Personally I do think that minimal government is the ideal. But at the same time, hard times come for a strong government. There's no one-size-fits-all. Right now, in the sort of society and times we live in, a libertarian system would just be committing suicide. We NEED a strong fascist government as as defense mechanism toward all the shit that's going on. In more peaceful times, I'd be okay with minimal government, but with the gov't still stepping in when things are happening that are clearly bad for society (prostitution, pornography, feminism, etc I could go on)

>>138848981
Anarcho Capitalism stands in direct opposition with Nation Socialism, it's funny how both these factions exist on /pol/
>inb4 fascism isn't National Socialism
I know, but judging by flags NatSocs are the majority over just fascists

Anarchism vs a Strong State (Nationalism)
Capitalism vs Socialism
Very strange

>>138849712
>Communism
>Give up your culture
Soviets cultivated existing cultures:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korenizatsiya
>Give up your land
Glorious Russian empire was never that big as it was with Soviets. Literally took other people's land.
Just joking, I see what you mean:
>Give up your property to the commons
It always sounds like you don't really own anything and everyone may enter your living room without your premise because it is "common". That's a bullshit though and a complete misunderstanding (it is actually intentional - a strawman) concept of marxism-xsism.
>Give up your people
>is racist
Duh, USSR was an antisemetic racist chauvinistic hellhole, your lefties would consider it to be superracist and literally Nazi.
>Social bonds are bourgeois
Dunno, divorce rate sky-rocketed with capitalism.

>>138849920
>>138849712
Let the mental gymnastics olympiad commence. First up, the "fascism isn't authoritarian" discipline, in which our contestants will have to claim that personal freedom isn't limited and casually infringed upon in a system that divides society into normative groups and applies different policies to them.
Next up in our mental gymnastics contest, we'll see the leaf and the nigger perform the difficult "fascism isn't socialism cuz the state only prohibits only what it deems harmful to society" maneuver.
Come and enjoy the spectacle, because here, even pigs in wigs can fly!

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>>138848981
They're both equally dogmatic, it's just more surprising when it comes from the ancaps/lolbergs.

The left knows we want to gas them and we won't accept bolshevism (not even the "voluntary" kind). Therefore, it's understandable that they would hate us and refuse to fight fair.

The ancaps/lolbergs (who are 90%+ white, acceptable candidates for the Reich by the way) would let nonwhites flood the country nonstop as long as they could save 10% at Walmart.

Both are purely materialistic, one wants ALL of the shekels to be collected, the other wants NONE of the shekels to be collected.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vMypCinkRk

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Not all Libertarians are created equal. There are multiple sub-groups in this ideology, and some of them are more aware than others of the dangers that cultural subversion and Marxism bring to the table. There is a new wave of Libertarians that are known as Reactionary Libertarians. We are those Libertarians that recognize that Democracy has failed so powerfully that we now live under more tyranny than the Founding Fathers did under their Monarchical King. They were seeking to limit the state, but we realize that Minarchism always fails as the very nature of States compel them to grow.
We look to leaders such as Augusto Pinochet of Chile and Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore as ideals. They took Authoritarianism and wielded it in order to purge the Marxist elements from their societies after the great plunders that took place there. We recognize that Fascism is a natural response to cultural subversion. While we do not believe living under permanent Fascist rule is desirable, we recognize that we would be more free under a singular dictator that has a vested interest in the quality of this nation, like a King who 'owns' all the land and therefore must care for it's value, lest his property be worthless. This system is more desirable than republics and democracies, as those institutions are inherently Marxist, and always lead to a leftward shift in the Overton Window.
I am entirely willing to live under a Fascist state, but my end goal is to move the Overton Window back towards the right, purge the Marxist filth from the world or at least my homeland, and prepare the next generation for the responsibility of true Liberty.

>>138851281
"Both are materialistic"

Completely wrong and flat out uneducated. Fascism is the antithesis to materialism and holds a higher goal than simply giving more and better stuff to people. Fascism is about a nation and it's people on a plane higher than the material world we live in.

>>138851281
Need I add that capitalism is mostly Jewish and fascism is the anti jew in almost every way. A nation's and people's health is put forth ahead of wealth and comfort.

Complete opposite. You think fascism is an economic term and you are completely and utterly wrong. Economy means dick in fascism other than there are strict export and import controls and taxes exist.

Libertarians / Ancaps know that Fascists are the same as the Communists.

They are Collectivists that only care about the forced and coerced altruistic sacrifice of the individual in the name of the greater good.

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>>138851981
That was exactly my point m8, you misread.
I said Libertarian/Ancaps & Communists were materialistic, not Fascists.

>>138848981
>That one point where he
>Two human beings want to have a voluntary transaction
This is the same shit as gays marrying other '''victimless''' crimes and towards the end of the video he is wondering where all the degeneracy comes from.
Also
>le you haven't operated a business *smuggy*
Basically the whole video, Stef is a pompous ass and still manages to get destroyed

>>138852239
>That one point where he talks about trade and pineapples and shit
*

>>138849441
And the "right" is univesalist, purely materialistic just like the left. There's a reason that they called it the third position. It's supposed to be a Hegelian synthesis of capitalism and its anithesis. That's why it seems like sort of a middle-ground in practical terms, but is ideologically irreconcilable with both.

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>>138852182
Pure individualism is the cancer of our times. We are not communists simply for recognizing that man must sacrifice for the good of his community, state, and nation.

You just want to hold on to your $$, no need to sugar-coat it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huNH8a2XXHM

Is it not a sad reality when loving your culture, your heritage, your God, your country and your family, makes you a fascist in the eyes of the weak minded left?

>>138852640

"The unity of a nation's spirit and will are worth far more than the freedom of the spirit and will of an individual; and that the higher interests involved in the life of the whole must here set the limits and lay down the duties of the interests of the individual." -- Adolph Hitler

"...we understand only the individual's capacity to make sacrifices for the community, for his fellow men." -- Adolf Hitler, 10-7-33

"To be a socialist is to submit the I to the thou; socialism is sacrificing the individual to the whole." -- Joseph Goebbels, Minister of Propaganda, National Socialist German Workers' ("Nazi") Party

"Comrades! We must abolish the cult of the individual decisively, once and for all." -- Soviet Premier Nikita S. Khrushchev, addressing the 20th Congress of the Soviet Communist Party, 2-25-56

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>>138848981
>Soros funding shills to degrade our culture and racial unity
>This somehow doesn't violate the NAP
lolberts everyone

>>138852640
> you just want to keep your cash
And you just want to get other, productive people's cash. Like a nigger.

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Antifa

vs.

>>138853033
But it does

>>138851703

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>>138853011
Being anti-selfish does not make two ideologies the same. You've lost the plot mate. I was a lolberg once, I know exactly how you people think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaUtwJetosA

>>138853046
No, we are simply against the lolberg notion of "freedom" that includes the ability (and the incentive) to open a sweatshop in China or a tax haven in Panama. Just like I said though, your first concern is "MUH SHEKELS!" It's like clockwork.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Pgnng3bVlc

>>138853999
>e are simply against the lolberg notion of "freedom" that includes the ability (and the incentive) to open a sweatshop in China or a tax haven in Panama.
Aka we want to eliminate all competition cuz work is hard and boring. There is no difference between you and the commies, leech.

>>138850705
>Regulating cigarette marketing and sugary drinks is socialism

K bud. Guess I'm a nigger. Hope you enjoy your heroin chewing gum and televised feces eating contests.

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>>138849712
>Give up your Culture
Yes, because Wal-Mart comes into your home and kills you when you dont act like how they expect a good Customer should act.
>Give up your Land
Only if you willingly relinquish it? When has a private company ever gone to some village and paved it and people over like Pompeii for a parking lot? People have to sell their land. Unless of course you have eminent domain, just one of those lovely government programs.
>Give up your People
Again, not necessary.


The way I see a Fascist is the same way I see a Socialist. They want a nanny state for the sole reason that they dont like certain things, just like a Socialist. They want the state to crush things they see as unjust, unfair, or wrong based on their own tastes. Some of these tastes I totally support, but I dont support state mandated rulings to enforce these tastes. They blur the line between what people "should" do and what people "ought" to do. They still perceive the government as a sort of tool, an outside thing that can be manipulated. No. Its people. Its just the will of men acting. The Government cannot have goals, a collective cannot have goals. People have goals. Individuals have goals. What the Fascist cannot understand is that sometimes the change you want to see starts with your family, it starts with your individual self. Change what YOU do. STOP patronizing places that use sex as an advertisement strategy. Stop watching porn, go outside more, wear a tweed suit. The only way the Fascist Mantra could live is in a scenario where the central government is small, and the state or local government has power. You could then stand with the liberty to operate, maybe even just a town or community, in this way. Only allow certain advertisements, have a gated community where, hell, you even have a dress code. Have a common hedge fund for health care expenses, have a rally type thing once a month to talk about goals. But for christs sake dont touch my fucking stuff.

>>138852640
Individualism is only cancer when there is the wrong type of propaganda. Love of life. Love of reality. Love of traditions. These things can all help individualism thrive.

>>138854485
I don't need dear leader to tell me it's bad and neither does anybody else for that matter. Go be a nigger all you want, there's a reason africans shit out 9 of them at once.

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>>138854179
>2 minutes later
Watch the fucking video I linked you and actually participate in debate, or piss off. I'm not going to type an essay for you to explain what should be common sense.
I DON'T WANT YOUR FUCKING MONEY

>>138855050
Well what do YOU want?

>>138854823
I'm glad you're so enlightened that you never make self destructive decisions. The reality of the world around us is that tons of people are exposed to tons of very persuasive messages endorsing damaging behavior.

Not wanting to deal with the implications of wide spread bad decisions is intelligent policy.

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>>138848981
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZkMc5bvuyQ

>>138848981
is he deliberately misinterpreting the guy's arguments or is Molyneux just that dense?
he can't seriously deny that government is a mechanism and tool
>It's just people!!
get fucked

>>138855050
I'm not watching your shitty videos, use your digits to write a response or end yourself. Since it's "common sense" it shouldn't need more than two sentences of explanaition. Just because you can copy-paste a link of some shitty 20 min diatribe of some literally who doesn't make you any more clever.

>>138855319
I'm aware of this.

>>138851981
That's what he said. Communism and Libertarianism only concern themselves with the material. All they care about is physical wealth. In both systems, it's perfectly okay to destroy a race and culture, so long as it's good for wealth generation (whether shared in communism or individualized in libertarianism)

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>>138854749
Yes, but admitting that means that you already understand there is no REAL individualism. If propaganda controls the people, then the propaganda controllers are the true masters of society. Individualism is a fraud, a mirage.

>>138855247
Making mistakes is at the foundation of being human. Why would I not want to make mistakes? Why would I want to remove my humanity from myself? Why would I ever want to commit violence?

Why don't the igbos invade kazakhstan? Do they fear the mongol warrior?

>>138855455
The individual no longer makes decisions? So if other people make decisions congruent with the individual, does that mean the individual has no say in his decision making?

Ill give this to you, fascists, you're much more informed and witty than the run of the mill Statist. Really enjoy debating you people.

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>>138855177
The opposite of pic related.

>>138855354
>I wont listen unless you type it!
top kek

Who here /socialist/

>>138855455
Of course. The nation exists. The state exists. The family exists. The town exists. The community exists. These are all collectives. They all have a right to exist and they must all exist. I'm not arguing for unlimited free will, I'm arguing for a society where doing the wrong thing feels wrong. Exactly what Christianity has given us.

>>138855247
> Not wanting to deal with the implications of wide spread bad decisions is intelligent policy.
No it's not, it's collective avoidance of personal responsibiltiy. It's a childish way of thinking and leads to ever bigger social programs and enslavement of productive individuals to the point they fuck off to Panama or China to open up a sweatshop there.
You want to stop the decline of the west? Start with making people responsible for their own decisions. All of a sudden you'll see a lot less 'bad decisions' and a lot more good ones, aka. no more racemixing to piss off daddy and a lot more "tradwives who want a family".

>>138855050
You linked a fucking William Pierce video. I get that he was a professor of physics, but that doesn't mean anyone should take his political opinions seriously. I've listened to a few of his broadcasts; in all of them he rambled and shouted about niggers and kikes for the entire ~30 minutes.

>>138855880
We must be ruled by feelings of guilt.
Not dehumanisation of communism.
The fear of life as in fascism.
Not shame as in Eastern cultures.
Guilt. My will to defend what our Creator has given me in my short existence.

>>138854599
>Yes, because Wal-Mart comes into your home and kills you when you dont act like how they expect a good Customer should act.
You really don't understand what giving up your culture is do you? When non-whites move into your country they don't keep your heritage or culture. They keep there own and build on it to remove you. Corporations take advantage of that shit constantly.

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>>138855713
(((Their))) influence runs so deep that they have a strong effect on HOW most people think.
>education
>media
>government

Combine their effective control on these institutions of influence with the natural human impulse to conform, and you're left with a tiny sliver of individuals who ACTUALLY make their own decisions.

Some of these people MAY agree with (((them))) from time to time, but the vast majority of "individuals" are anything but independent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVCfQ6Lyoo0

>>138855573
Yeah I'm glad you feel that way. Some mistakes are fatal or life ruining. Other people made those mistakes so you don't have to. You don't need to learn from personal experience every bad behavior. Maybe you're even one of these big brained niggas who will believe an intelligently well reasoned argument about why certain behaviors are prohibited or socially frowned upon. But a lot of people just need to be told that shit is illegal or sinful by a strong authority.

>>138855892
Yeah it's so much better to sacrifice another generation of people to various social scourges than to just implement policy based on what we know is damaging. Clearly these messages are stronger when you can see some leper wasting away in the streets so your parents and clergy can point at him and say "that's what happens when you're a fucking degenerate". That exact system has led us to this point. The family and clergy were destroyed and the degenerate lepers enabled and elevated. But I'm sure this time you'll get it right. I'm sure your particular brand of libertarianism is special.

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>>138848981
>Why are pro liberty people who hate socialism so opposed to the absolute extreme end of authoritarianism and socialism?
Really a headscratcher you got there.

>>138855455
Individualism is a rights theory, not a law of physics, retard.

>>138848981
>Implying man can understand god's 32D plan

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>>138855880
Christianity is dying, and the new morality does not make the "wrong things" feel wrong, it makes perfect normal things feel wrong.
Transgenderism is literally celebrated in our society, that should be enough to show how skewed the moral compass has become.

>>138855922
And? He is literally correct. Everything he has discussed has come to pass, he predicted 9/11 and the Iraq War almost perfectly, the man is a damn prophet. Just because nobody ELSE tells you the truth doesn't mean he is wrong. You still live in a 90% white country, you have NO idea how bad things will become.
>t. born in Chicago

See your future White man (this is NOT a Dr. Pierce video):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ0AHO-IWws

>>138848981
http://www.zerothposition.com/2017/08/15/relationship-libertarianism-fascism/

>>138848981
I believe that a lot of the hostility that comes from ideologically committed libertarians when discussing the likes of Fascism is that deep down, they are aware that their own ideology is lacking in some ways. How many of us on this board are former libertarians? I run into many. I regard libertarianism as an interesting system but nonetheless, if you cling to it in this day and age, with the problems we face now and with the larger ones that will come in the future, I'm sorry to say but you are very naive. It's also interesting to note that many libertarians are from small, largely homogeneous communities. I don't think you'd find many libertarians running around in the likes of Brazil. Libertarianism is great when you have a manageable, high-trust community that is populated by smart, hard-working people but in a society like America which is beginning to burst at the seams, it is simply insufficient.

>>138850016
national-socialism =/= fascism

national-syndicalism is way more compatible with austrian economic than democracy

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>>138853033

>>138855892
And when they don't bear it? When the result of their decisions falls, in part or in whole, on other people? What business of yours is someone wasting his life away chasing euphoria through mind altering substances? When you've the same heroinists getting resiscitated on a regular basis and a bunch of tweakers beating people up, robbing and stealing, breaking and entering then that is your business. When you've foreigners coming in by the legion, getting to decide what your state and your people should do and be allowed to, that is your business.

It's one thing, matters that have little impact on others like saving for old age. It's another when you drag others down with you, or they even bear the brunt of your actions. The state does exist to some extent to ensure a form of collective good. To infringe on some liberties in order to provide the people with safety and opportunity. You need a basis upon which to justify that. Here, now, it's the individual instead of the family and the state instead of the nation.

>>138857614
whoever made this should be shot for splitting up the text with that fucking snek

>>138848981
>the free market doesn't put people in debt
>People get insurance

Wtf molymeme

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>>138851703
These are the libertarians that I like, I wish there were more of you.

>>138856646
>That exact system has led us to this point.
Wrong. That exact system led to western superiority, the colonial era and what you call the gilded age in america. The downfall began when the lepers got elevated by types like you, who would rather delegate problems away instead of dealing with them, as unpleasant as they are. If you let every degenerate go about his day without facing consequences for his behavior, they will never even think about changing their ways. So what if they get a bruise in the process, they will remember it and adapt accordingly. What the church and my parents have to do with it you'll have to explain to me.

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>>138848981

Libertarians are in the middle of everything as a fascist and white nationalist I've spoken to libertarians including my own brother. Most are filled with delusional lies that fascism takes control of you and your property and life. This is a lie, fascism is government militarization of police and authoritarian law which would punish criminals instead of focusing on rehabilitation. The only thing libertarians would dislike about fascism is an autocratic party/oligarch of sorts. If anything libertarianism would work well under Fascism and libertarians should be much more terrified of the communists and socialists. They the communists want to erase our constitution and implement downfall of government meanwhile fascists wish to implement law to protect our culture and ethics and militarize police to combat communist terrorists. Libertarians should not fear us black anon.

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>>138856924

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>>138857967
Yeah you're right. It was the fascists that elevated the degenerates.

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>>138848981
It is all a bunch of 'MUH FREEDOMZ" horseshit.

These people will whine endlessly how communism, cultural marxism, etc have ruined everything(to these points they are right) but their ideology utterly lacks any internal method of dealing with these other ideologies.

National Socialism and Fascism DOES have internal methods of dealing with Communists, Marxian Socialists, and Cultural Marxist.

What has your freedom gained you? Degeneracy is rampant in your streets. Communists are terrorizing the civilian populace to hunt us, and the LGBT is pimping a 10-year old 'drag queen' with the applause of the Jew Media.

How can you stop this Liberalism? How can you stop this Ancapistan? How can you stop this 'centrists'? I mean do so in the framework of your own ideology.

You can't.

How do we stop it? We punish it. We ban it. We kill it.

Reap what you sow Capitalist Liberalism.

>>138857970
Fascism is just another form of statism so fuck off socialist.

>>138858448
While I agree with the sentiments, National Socialism and all the baggage that comes along with it is deeply repulsive to many normies out there. Many of the underlying ideas are sound but presenting them along with a swastika will turn people off straight away.

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>>138858730
What a truly amazing revelation. Really activates my almonds.

>>138848981
>fascism
>freedom
pick one

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>>138848981
probably because it's still to the left of them. ideally, fascism would create a society where you could meet new, common people so in theory it's better and clearly somewhat in practice too. fascists think that they should propagate people to do what's best for the state so the rules give freedom and libertarians (at least early america) were more along the lines of living a life that coincides with nature than the state. state was only meant to protect those rights, not create them

>>138857614
Is that supposed to be convincing?

>>138857861
> breaking and entering then that is your business. When you've got foreigners coming in by the legion, getting to decide what your state and your people should do and be allowed to, that is your business.
Interesting you mention these. I agree, there should be police enforcing peace and public security, I can't remember arguing against this.
The thing with addicts is that currently, they get welfare and food in exchange for not rioting in the streets as you describe it. Now, does this discourage future addicts in any way? No, because they will get food and shelter regardless, maybe even better drugs if they murder a bunch of people dumb enough to pay into such a system.
Same thing with arabs and niggers currently flooding into europe - do they have to survive on their own here? No, they get welfare and food, directly from me and you. Does this make them less violent or ready to integrate? No, they will rape and murder more people to get better gibs. Meanwhile the state and the people working for it actively encourage more of them to come because on one hand they can press more money out of people and on the other hand they can expand it's influence and might to provide safety from the barbarians they import, giving them more wealth and power.
The fact of the matter is that shifting responsibilites and problems over to the state doesn't solve them, they just get amplified and used against you, making you a slave in your own country. Same thing with fascism and other variations of socialism, just because it says "good for you" on the package doesn't mean it will turn against you and fuck you over. The best way to deal with the problem is to put the monster into heavy chains and make them just long enough to do the most basic functions, such as maintainig the peace and the borders.
Again, i'm not arguing against the existence of states. I think they are necessary to create a bubble of freedom and liberty for it's citizen in a world full of barbarians.

>>138857963
>>138857970
>please thread on me

Ancaps/capitalists and communists are entirely materialist ideologies. Third-Position/Fashy tried to offeer an alternative and got shoad by the aforementioned jew ideologies.

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>>138858750
>National Socialism and all the baggage that comes along with it is deeply repulsive to many normies out there. Many of the underlying ideas are sound but presenting them along with a swastika will turn people off straight away

You aren't wrong. That's the shit of it. A result of 50-years of outright fabrications, agitprop, and exaggerations by the Jew Media and international Jewry takes its toll.

However, when--not if--Communism becomes a significant enough of a threat, when the degeneracy gets to be too much, and when a people are tired of being whored out for an international shopping mall to benefit the Capitalist and Communist oligarchies, they will turn to Fascists and National Socialism or they will wear their yoke.

Either way, I'm tired of these dipshits whining about Communism, degeneracy, and Marxists when they denounce TWO ideologies that can deal with them and adhere to an ideology that CANNOT deal with them.

>>138859032
Walk with me on this one. I know it sounds crazy but just have a listen:

Have you ever considered that "freedom" is not the be all and end all of everything? That the great masses of people need something above them to give them meaning, purpose and order?

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>>138860033
Getting their asses gaped is all the meaning they need.

>>138860033
Sound a lot like cuckoldry to me.

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>>138859857

K baby

>>138849924
>We NEED a strong fascist government as as defense mechanism toward all the shit that's going on.

It always goes too far, and afterwards the pendulum swings over to the left even more.

I hate Nazis, they are the reason we are in this mess. Ze Krauts are especially to blame for the ruination of the white race. If we were to go down the fascist road and remove kebab from our societies, we eradicate not just all the values that made the West the best, but we legitimise bad behaviour from the rest of the world powers whom we currently condemn therefore giving them free reign to delve further into darkness. There will be no winner in a race to the bottom of who can be the nastiest.

We can fix the West if the Right simply partake in a tax revolt. We would hold any government over the coals. Any demand would be met. Governments would fall and be replaced and represented by whites who are sympathetic to our needs, not 3rd worlders. Of course, the leader of such a tax revolt would be destroyed by a government. It would have to be someone who is acceptable and palatable in public opinion. They would have to be a wolf in sheeps clothing. An occupy style lack of leadership would fail. The candidate for leader would have to represent white middle class. Someone cut from the same cloth as Farage would be idea.

Fascism will lead to unimaginable violence. The white lower class will be hard to manage, the master will have to become ruthless to rule them. Makes me think of Hitler and the Brownshirts.

And then off course, there is everyone else.

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you

Answer : A tax revolt. Birthrates dropped and it was easier economically to import new workers rather than potentially have too many indigenous ones from a birth program down the line. We punish them for this.

We beat them with economics. Not violence.

>>138862931
Tax revolt? They print money you daft fuck. If they want trillions of dollars tomorrow it could be done. The actual "printing" process isn't even the rate limiting factor any more.

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>>138862931
>we eradicate not just all the values that made the West the best,

You mean allying yourself with Communism, letting it fuck Europe in the ass for 60 years, and losing your Empire in the process?

>>138863467
>daft fuck

It is you who is daft if you think they can print their way out a system that has ground to a halt. But lets say they did, in the America financial system, it is the taxpayer who pays interest on the Fed loans. How will "Federal Reserve" be able to lend money that they dont get a return on. And if they did refuse, the whole country has just been woken up to the fact that Federal reserve is about as Federal as Federal Express.

A tax revolt can out jew the jew. Its exactly what Jesus did in the temple. He took away their power.

>>138863530
>If we were to go down the fascist road and remove kebab from our societies, we eradicate not just all the values that made the West the best, but we legitimise bad behaviour from the rest of the world powers whom we currently condemn therefore giving them free reign to delve further into darkness.

Fascism will lead to evil, just like communism.

>>138863530
>You mean allying yourself with Communism, letting it fuck Europe in the ass for 60 years, and losing your Empire in the process?

We have you and your failed experiment to thank for that, so forgive me if i dont want to take advice from you, Kraut.

>>138864061
Assholes have been screaming at the top of their lungs for decades that the fed is a scam. A bunch of idiots being imprisoned for tax evasion isn't going to change shit. They'll brand you as traitors who don't want to pay your fair share. We've got people in our country right now that pay hundreds of millions of dollars into this nonsense. . . and then donate hundreds of millions MORE through their own philanthropic endeavors trying to help third world niggers and how are they treated? They're the 1%. They're the enemy. They got rich by stealing $1 a day from each of their workers and they need to be taxed MORE.

I can't even imagine how fucking cucked your wealthy class must be.

>>138863530
I detest Germans like yourself. Fucking detest you. You are scum. Those Charlottesville Nazis were clowns. American Nazis typically are. Like some kind of twisted parody. Children in the body of a man. But Euro Nazis, there is a special place in hell for them right next to the commies.

>>138864061
>>138864359
You're arguing with economical illiterates who basically think this>>138860033 is in any way acceptable for a human being with a sliver of dignity. Be happy there's a body of water between you and these apes.

>>138864359
https://youtu.be/kpyHFWbcDmo

I recommend you watch this in your own time.

For me I am torn between full fascism /NatSoc or anCap. Every other ideology does not have a chance against subversion. AnCaps have helicopter rides and NatSoc has gas chambers.
All memes aside, we either need the freedom of vigilante justice or the heavy hand of ethical authority

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>>138864359
>We have you and your failed experiment to thank for that

No you, on your own free volition, in spite of obvious designs on Europe from his own part, fucking gobbled down that Stalin and Roosevelt dick.

Meanwhile threw several peace deals back in Hitler's face. Whew lads. No wonder you are so thoroughly assfucked.

>>138864725
Yeah because Europe is a bastion of libertarian politics. We're the ones trying to stave off your toxic influence.

>>138864615
>Assholes have been screaming at the top of their lungs for decades that the fed is a scam. A bunch of idiots being imprisoned for tax evasion isn't going to change shit. They'll brand you as traitors who don't want to pay your fair share. We've got people in our country right now that pay hundreds of millions of dollars into this nonsense. . . and then donate hundreds of millions MORE through their own philanthropic endeavors trying to help third world niggers and how are they treated? They're the 1%. They're the enemy. They got rich by stealing $1 a day from each of their workers and they need to be taxed MORE.
>I can't even imagine how fucking cucked your wealthy class must be.

There is not argument in your answer. It shows your lack of understanding of my argument if you think im going down the route of arguing there is no law saying an American should pay tax. So let me clarify from which direction i am approaching this by asking you, how many IRS agents are there? How many American does it take to refuse to pay tax before the IRS agents and the courts come to a standstill due to an organic political movement. Where are the gimmedats going to get there gimmes from when you have 10%, the 205, then 30% and 40% of the American taxpayers refusing to pay the contributions that make up 90% of the tax revenue.

the leverage the white middle class hold is incredible, and it is not being exploited.

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>>138864633

Ich liebe dich auch.

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>I've been seeing lately that Libertarians, AnCaps and Minarchists are more stubborn than the Left in general when it comes to discussing Fascism

Holy shit, show me one leftard show that would even host a debate with Cultured Thug.

Paleocons and libertarians, we disagree with you fascists on some things, but we hate the same people and you know we would fight on the same side together.

I would be satisfied with a sort of free market fascist dictator like Pinochet or Franco as opposed to Mussolini.

>>138864725

Yes, i saw that fascist comment, and thought screw wasting energy on that. It take s real knuckle dragger to write that.

Glad you see how infantile this lot are Swissbro

>>138859753
>Interesting you mention these
As a consequence.
>if we didn't subsidize them there wouldn't be junkies
>if we didn't give welfare nobody'd want to move to a country with 20x the wages and physical security
>if we just shoved our heads up our asses and did nothing there would be no problems
Sorry to burst your bubble; no.

>>138865183
Continental europe is the cesspit where socialism and it's derivatives came from. It's where this idea of 'the state will do it for me' originated. The only place safe from this shit is the alps, where nobody can help you for at least a week if you fuck up, that's why everything around us is slowly but surely going to shit.

>>138865138
>Meanwhile threw several peace deals back in Hitler's face

Peace deal? Why would we do a deal with a guy whos word meant nothing.

Why would we do a deal wit ha guy who planned to subvert us by fanning the flames of British Fascist like Mosley.

Why would we do a deal with a group of thugs?

Why would we do a deal with a junkie?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mew0tJTViKk

Btw, America is lost. Its over for you guys. Europe will deal with our problems in our own way. We don need Nazi larpers like yourself telling us how great the biggest gobshite in history was.

>>138864633
right next to the commies for which you sacrificed your empire to save them :^)

>>138865533
I didn't say they would go away. I said there would be considerably less of them and the rest of us would be richer and safer for it.

>>138865346
>Ich liebe dich auch.

Danke sehr mein schatz.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inA2-iEs1-8

>>138857963
>>138851703
Everytime that happens we end up at the same fucking place again. EVERYTIME you want to keep repeating this forever?

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>>138864359
>Kraut.
>>138864633
>I detest Germans like yourself
>>138865932
>Btw, America is lost. Its over for you guys. Europe will deal with our problems in our own way. We don need Nazi larpers like yourself telling us how great the biggest gobshite in history was.

Whew lad. Can you make up your mind?

And more anger please.

>>138865993

Good comment my short fat my brown friend. You see we still have a shadow empire, yet you have nothing. You are an irrelevant country. It is the commies who let you into the EU, and when we leave, all you beggars and mafia can fuck out of London and back to your shithole country whos women were fucking commies for 50 years, when they weren't fucking donkeys that is.

>>138866040
It was some kumbaya horseshit is what it was. They aren't junkies because we pay them, they are because they like drugs. They aren't migs because of welfare, they are because they cannot build a functioning country on their own. Muslims aren't assholes because you bomb them, they're just genetically inferior garbage attached to a cancerous culture.

Wishful thinking gets you nowhere.
Argument was governments have a role in providing to some extent a collective good through the curtailing of some liberties and defining that good by the individual(a fragment) as opposed to the family(smallest unit) is not a good idea. Nowhere in your wall of text did you even come close to addressing the argument.

>>138866407

I have decided you are not a German. You are one of the new Nazi larpers we have around here that faps to Brittany Venti.

>>138866821
>have a role in providing to some extent a collective good through the curtailing of some liberties and defining that good by the individual(a fragment) as opposed to the family(smallest unit) is not a good idea.
And I said that they don't because it always ends up removing consequences for bad behavior.

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When you're honest about it you see a truly healthy empire needs all 4 aspects.
The bones and muscles. The strong military state that defends against foreign threats.
The lifeblood of free markets and capitalism that generate economic power and enable everything.
The immune system of racial awareness. To keep the empire healthy.
And spiritual power. Without it the way will be lost quickly.

>>138865278
The demographic that you're advocating should tax revolt does not exist. The people who pay the most taxes also get the most benefits from the system and have leveraged their wealth to actually control or avoid the system. It functions as a mutually beneficial relationship in a lot of cases. The behavior you actually see out of incredibly wealthy individuals is that instead of having a tax revolt they're more likely to spend their money on things they imagine the government should be doing anyway.

The IRS is much more powerful than you think. They can just suck the money out of your bank accounts. They can come to your house and take your shit. They can garnish your future wages and put liens on your property. Currently the IRS is trying to put on a friendly face where they'll work with you but make no mistake it is difficult to resist this entity. If you are in the middle class the IRS can fuck you with a few mouse clicks if you don't want to play ball.

The vast majority of people don't have to worry about this because almost half the population pays very little to no taxes. In fact they actually get a YUUUUUGE refund check every year using things like earned income credit which can give a family up to $6,000 a year. A nigger will slice your throat for $6,000 a year. That's only one entitlement though. The poor have entitlements for days. Hundreds of billions of dollars worth. All the government has to do is let that nigger know who the bad guy is that's holding up dem payments.

Your course of action is to ask people to ruin their lives utilizing a course of action that has no hope of succeeding and a very high probability of ending with some welfare chimp stealing everything that the IRS doesn't. Wonderful.

>>138849712
>Give up your culture.
Heritage can be shown is a museum, History can be shown in a museum, And trinkets from said culture can be sold.

>Give up your land.
Since when has anyone been forced to give up land that they own?

>Give up your people
Collectivism is inherently evil and goes against the will of the individual. You will work at a wage that the market sets, and if your labor is not worth much, then you will starve, and if you put in restrictions to help these people, then you are holding back your society.

>Fascism doesn't concern itself with "Left vs Right" though, I am generally more inline with the "Third Position".
Generally most modern governments are fascist in nature. Your position is mostly used by the Republican Party. A true third position or being honest, a second position would be libertarianism.

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>>138848981

The libertarians see nazis and commies as the same thing, two groups which are in favor of a large government and curtailing individual freedom and economic freedom, reducing choices. I used to subscribe to this concept as I personally value my individual freedom quite highly. Then at some point I came to realize that other people don't value their freedom highly and furthermore, shouldn't because they don't deserve it or understand it. In an ideal world, individuals would not need any outside guidance to point them in a proper direction, but it turns out that most people are stupid and in fact (whether they admit it or not) desire some form of authority in their lives because it provides them with direction and stability which they are incapable of achieving on their own.

When you realize that by nature and in general human beings are incapable of actually using true freedom properly and adhering to libertarian values, you see that one of two authoritarian forces are the answer, and you must take your pick out of fascism/national socialism or communism/bolshevism. Both have socialist aspects, but their applications and how they view the world are wildly different. One of these groups is a natural ally of libertarians and would, for the most part, allow them to preserve their identity, individualism, and freedom since their traditional values and strong work ethics align. One of these groups is a jewism plot to control the masses, destroy tradition, and completely and totally limit one's individualism.

Libertarians, ancaps, etc. will argue against this and are indeed extremely stubborn, but they also most realize that the masses aren't ready for what they understand and have to offer. Human beings in general cannot handle pure freedom without devolving. If shit hit the fan they know exactly which of the authoritarian groups they would join to preserve what they can of their own self interest but they don't want to admit that it's the fascists/nazis.

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>>138867016
>I have decided you are not a German. You are one of the new Nazi larpers we have around here that faps to Brittany Venti.

Brittany Venti is about as repulsive as I can find a woman to be. Sorry.

I'm not an American.

But hey, keep throwing stuff until it sticks I guess.

>>138852640
>Pure individualism is the cancer of our times.
Something that doesn't exist cannot be the cancer of our times. Something that is methodically suppressed cannot be the cancer of our times. What we live under, is "reverse collectivism": all this positive discrimination, focus on white guilt etc. It has nothing to do with pure individualism, it's actually heavily opposed to it. Pure individualism will naturally expose hierarchy and inequality peculiar to the human kind on a very deep level, but reverse collectivism is trying to blindfold us from that, so that the real nature of society is veiled and masked under many layers of guilt, shame and remorse.

>>138867146
No, you talked about shifting responsibility to the state, when I'd specifically said I wasn't talking about actions which do not merely affect the agent himself.

I in no uncertain terms told you I was talking about actions for which you don't naturally have to take full responsibility since you don't bear the full consequences.

You didn't address the argument. You deflected. Deflected and tried to minimize the significance of all the examples I gave, saying that it would all work out by doing nothing at all.

>>138867016
>unironically uses nazi as an insult on 4chan
Kindly go fuck yourself in the ass with a 10 foot pole.

>>138849145
no

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>>138868211

This & chequed.

Libertarians: ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME!!!!

Fascists: WE WE WE WE WE WE WE WE WE!!!!

/thread

>>138868317

The core underlying reason for anyone to espouse the libertarian ideals always seems to boil down to a desire to do something morally reprehensible that the state currently bars them from doing.
I've never debated a lib whose motives didn't ultimately boil down to pederasty or shooting smack into his arm.
Push them hard enough and you will find this to be the case every time.

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>>138868756
oops, #notmyflag

>>138868428
Pretty much, except
>Fascists: make the collective better by making the individual better, using a merit system
That's what I got from Culture Thug's explanation, anyway.

>>138868170
And I told you that's what the police is for, aka. Law enforcement. Now I know that the answer to that is something in manner of "oh so you do need a state lololol" - which is true, i don't argue for the abolition of states. I just want the bureaucrats to stay as far away from me as is possible and not pay for abdul and his 7 wives to not rape me when they get high on meth.
Ultimately, your scenario isn't a justification for any social programs, it's an argument for law enforcement.

>>138867670
>The libertarians see nazis and commies as the same thing
Nope, we see them as similar, but not the same. At least under Nazism you have a higher freedom of choice, but are still restrained to the one party, the image of the ideal citizen, and what the collective goal is.
The way I see it, Communism is a piece of shit that reaks, and Nasoc is a gold plated piece of shit that doesn't smell very bad.

>When you realize that by nature and in general human beings are incapable of actually using true freedom properly and adhering to libertarian values,
How so?

>One of these groups is a natural ally of libertarians and would, for the most part, allow them to preserve their identity, individualism, and freedom since their traditional values and strong work ethics align.
Nope, facism/nasoc is only allowed because they are anti-Marxist and want to destroy the welfare state.

>>138868756
>The core underlying reason for anyone to espouse the libertarian ideals always seems to boil down to a desire to do something morally reprehensible that the state currently bars them from doing.

This is my experience as well.

I also detailed the gaping holes in Libertarianism here.
>>138858448

>>138869023
The Fascist "we" is a collective of "me". Not an erasure of "me" like exists in socialism. It's what I believe to be a proper society.
Christ I'm using babylanguage for this but it's so any shills might understand.

>>138868756
For me, when I believed in it, it was because I knew that I was responsible and could handle pure freedom and individualism without the nanny state lording over me or telling me what was good for me. I lived in a state which was very strict on gun ownership and I own a lot of guns, and always felt upset that I had to jump through hoops to make sure I was following the law just taking my guns and ammo to the range to get some practice in. Eventually I realized what you're talking about. Most of my values aligned perfectly with the values of the national socialists, and I realized that even though the government was strong and authoritarian in that case, as long as it remained pure it would never be an intrusion on who I am.

>>138867302
>Currently the IRS is trying to put on a friendly face where they'll work with you but make no mistake it is difficult to resist this entity.

I have been at war with the UK HMRC many times. They have threatened me, they confiscated houses of a business partner, heaped unbelievable pressure. Coming in to meet all the time going through records. We never broke any laws, but the HMRC felt that we owed them some kind of settlement fee and we refused and counter-sued them for malfeasance in office. So now these officers went from trying to over tax us to defending their clear breaking of rules. Senior lawyers were begging for settlements yet we still pursued them for full damages. Go the houses back, bank accounts back with an apology from the secretary of state.

My dealings with the HMRC has been that they are incredibly inept and made of of individuals who are career driven in an environment that is made up of chickenshits who hide behind the weight of the state. These people are not smart, and would get torn to pieces in the real business world.

Im aware in the US you can defer you taxes when you invest that current years profits, and while that policy certainly promotes growth, it does lend to your argument that it is a mutually beneficial situation.

>>138867302
>Your course of action is to ask people to ruin their lives utilizing a course of action that has no hope of succeeding and a very high probability of ending with some welfare chimp stealing everything that the IRS doesn't. Wonderful.

Some things are greater than money. Over here we voted for Brexit even in the knowledge that we could be financially poorer. America is effectively a majority minority country. The White hatred is obvious. It will only serve to horrify we Europeans.

At some point White Ameicans are going to want to stop being the turkey that voted for Christmas, and when they do a tax revolt will be easy.

As powerful as the IRS may be, against a collective they will lose

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Lolbertarians and Ancaps are way to caught up in the economics of the situation. In fact, almost every political ideology seems to concern itself more with the economics than the people who drive the economy.

They don't realize that under fascism, the free market still exists. You can still buy products from Tom instead of Harry, or you can buy Dick's goods because they're better quality than either of the others. The only role the government plays in economics under Fascism is to make sure that business does not harm the people, the Volk, whether it be through monopolization, Corporatocracy, you name it. The government serves as a watchdog, not a tyrannical ruler. Fascism is at worst a mixed economy.

Contrast this with Marxism/Communism where the government is in COMPLETE control of the economy, and essentially owns all goods and labor produced by the Volk. The government does not act as a watch dog, but instead acts as the tyrannical ruler, purveying all goods as it sees fit. There is no free market, there is no competition, there is no room for growth and there is no free will. Hence why it always fails.

In short, I can understand the Centrist's apprehension to the notion that the government could control even a portion of the economy, because you stride the fine line between Freedom and Tyranny. But if being subjugated by out-of-control corporations somehow leads you to think you're more free than if you're being subjugated by the government, well, I have some news for you.

>>138869151
>Now I know that the answer to that
Are you autistic? Not everyone's an utter cunt like you. I'm trying to have a discussion. Why would I put words in your mouth that you've contradicted outright before?
>it's an argument for law enforcement
To enforce law enacted with the express purpose of curtailing your liberties, to infringe on your natural rights.

You didn't argue against it, you seem to agree with it. I've already spelled it out twice for you before. Governments have a role in providing to some extent a collective good through the curtailing of some liberties. This needs to be justified. So do we give up these liberties for the sake of individuals, for families, or for some superseding principle?

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>>138869219
>How so?
You are purely free but are a virtuous person. You may know other people who are virtuous and can handle the self-control and responsibility necessary to be a successful individual. There are 330 million people in the United States. If I had to guess just by basic observation, over 90% of these people would be incapable of sustaining pure freedom because they are not virtuous, and do not have self-control/responsibility.

This is fine when their actions affect only themselves. Who cares if the weak fail or die by their own poor decisions, right? Not me. But eventually the overwhelming majority of the weak will realize they can collectively be strong if they band together and start squandering their freedom by artificially imposing systems on themselves. Then you end up with a large group of people who resent those who have managed to thrive under total freedom. The large group of people will outnumber and destroy those who can actually handle themselves just by sheer numbers, and it won't matter that you're smarter, more intelligent, more capable, and a higher quality human being because these people will not be reasoned with. This is what I've observed of human nature. Freedom and individualism are great, but they cannot be sustained in the long term because at this stage in human development the unenlightened vastly outnumber the enlightened, and will ALWAYS destroy what you have to offer.

What the enlightened need for the time being is strength and unity to crush the unenlightened.

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>>138870271
>over 90% of these people would be incapable of sustaining pure freedom because they are not virtuous, and do not have self-control/responsibility.
And you don't think they can adapt or learn to be so.

>The weak are greater in numbers than the strong and will fuck us over because they couldn't think, act, or survive by them selves.

Then why don't we purge the weak. If they are going to restrain us. Either die or become strong.

>>138869986
Great post, also while I'm not a Libertarian myself and I see their ideology as equally farfetched, utopian and hard to realize as socialism, I do still ultimately see them as allies in a struggle against Marxism. Because whatever the outcome, a Libertarian society will never be as destructive and anti-human as a Communist one.

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>>138870628
>And you don't think they can adapt or learn to be so.

I think that they can, but it won't happen naturally, and the type of change and evolution in a person which needs to take place in order to bring those 90% up to speed would take generations, and I doubt a purely free society would survive long enough without being tainted by their stupidity in the meantime. The only way to force this change and make it happen quickly enough would be via a government forcing people to be that way, which is impossible if the society is totally free and has an extremely limited government.

>Then why don't we purge the weak. If they are going to restrain us. Either die or become strong.

Total freedom would be a purge of the weak, but as I said that would be an eventuality. Even though they are morally weak, they aren't just going to roll over and die. Things will get bad for them and they'll lash out like a cornered animal, which is why you see things like bolshevism in the first place. Again in this case instituting any sort of a policy or program to eliminate this weakness would mandate a strong, likely authoritarian government.

>Again in this case instituting any sort of a policy or program to eliminate this weakness would mandate a strong, likely authoritarian government.

I guess. Tearing down the welfare state which frankly keeps the weak on life support. Is authoritarian nature, and needs some form of authoritarianism to take down.
"using the existing system to help tear down the worst parts in the existing system". Which is why the closest thing to a true authoritarian is Donald Trump.

>>138848981
>Libertarians are stubborn about fascism

Maybe fascists are stubborn about how they're wrong?

>>138851281
>ancaps
>let nonwhites flood the country
No. Ancaps are for private property rights. That means discrimination. That also means not destroying the market value of your covenant communities by letting in niggers and Muslims en masse.

Cucky libertarians, maybe. Ancaps, particularly the Rothbardian/Hoppean ones that are most common on /pol/, certainly not.

>>138870098
>to infringe on your natural rights.
Is it my natural right to take herion and break into people's houses? Of course, you're right - if the state presides over a bunch of literal apes without any say in policy who would eat each other without some enlightened individual reminding them to not do it, sure. Put them in cages. This is the model most nations follow with the expected results. Luckily I live in a place that works the other way around.
I don't think it's a given that people are moral only because the state tells them to be. In fact it's the other way around - social norms inform government policy. Governments don't have a role in 'improving' society, because government is supposed to be the abstraction of the popular will, just like laws are made to represent already existing rules in society. It's absolutely normal to give up certain 'liberties' (such as going on drug fueled rampages) when you live with multiple people together in a place, this has nothing to do with 'the state curtailing liberties for the common good'.
What I want is to keep it that way, what you're suggesting is social engineering.

>>138871935
>let nonwhites flood the country*
*when it pays

This is true.

>>138871855
Yeah, I see fascism/national socialism as the sort of both physical and cultural eugenics bridge to what you actually want. I doubt that all of mankind will be made into creatures which can handle the concepts of freedom and individualism without necessary force and authority pushing those changes. Once you spend a few generations in a society which operates that way, the people of that society would likely be of a quality that they could survive total freedom without state intervention because their weakness has been bred out.

There are of course dangers at every turn. With any established government that has authority there is constant danger that it will be hijacked and deviate from the purity of its values and goals. If the right kind of strong people get in control and stay there long enough to root out stupidity and degeneracy however the benefits would be immense.

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>>138872007
>Is it my natural right to take heroin
Yes.
>and break into people's houses
And you made it half of one sentence before being disingenuous.
>It's absolutely normal to give up certain 'liberties' (such as going on drug fueled rampages) when you live with multiple people together in a place,
Glad we're on th-
>this has nothing to do with 'the state curtailing liberties for the common good'
I'm done.

>>138848981
>libertarians don't like authoritarianism and this confuses me

Sorry you're a fucking idiot op.

>>138872462
Where am I disingenuous?

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>>138872762

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>>138873135

>>138848981
Off topic; I'm liking that flag and was curious if that was a product of the flag thread or should I just lurk more

>>138849924
>Personally I do think that minimal government is the ideal. But at the same time, hard times come for a strong government. There's no one-size-fits-all. Right now, in the sort of society and times we live in, a libertarian system would just be committing suicide. We NEED a strong fascist government as as defense mechanism toward all the shit that's going on.

This is how I feel as well.

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>>138873413
Name one time you don't need a strong fashy gov.