On the subject of some form of Anarchism working in Catalonia

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Real Anarchy is to throw off the Rulers of Humanity.

The Archons.

They are the Rulers, Masters and Lords over us. We are their Slaves.

It was the Archons who brought down the Bloodline Kingship to Earth. They are the Monarchs.

Bumps of truth

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>>138747716
Lol the threat of the eternal Jew

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>>138748018
They are followers of Saturn, the Chief Archon and First Ruler known as the Demiurge.

>>138748421
I see im not that deep into Gnosticism so I wouldn't know much if that is what your talking about.

>>138748739
Yea its Gnosticism.

We are Anarchists in our own way. We are rebels who ago against the Authorities.

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Ephesians 6:12

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

To Understand Gnosticism you have to know the Reality of the Rulers, the Hypostasis of the Archons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqB65nqLgSs

>>138749571
I left the computer for a bit but I'm back now.

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>>138747461
>On the subject of some form of Anarchism working in Catalonia...
GENERAL FRANCO, anon. GENERAL FRANCO.

>>138749988
But he supported the Falange party which is church backed fascism.

>>138749571
Also this seems very spiritual, I only listened to the first five minutes but I liked it for the most part. I don necessarily know much about Gnosticism so I'll have to look more into it.

>>138750210
We are not talking about morality here, I am merely posting him because he kicked the arses of crusty hedge-monkey anarchos:
>Anarchchy is grea-
GENERAL FRANCO, anon. GENERAL FRANCO.

>>138750481
Oh I see, well yeah no doubt he own the war, but from my understanding the communist where busy fighting the anarchist and Franco allowed it for the most part and eventual ran ruff shot over everybody. With help from others of course, like I said apparently every "state" based ideology saw them as threat.

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>>138747461

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>>138750792
And where is this "anarchy" now? Quelled. GENERAL FRANCO, anon. GENERAL FRANCO.

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>>138751068
Lmao yeah he won

anarchism is nice
the jew always fear anarchism and try to push for le cuck eternal socialist state
too bad franco was there, they had no chance
also, go read Homage to Catalonia

>>138747461
Piss off you disgusting rat, the only thing that'll ever work in Spain is Fascism.

>>138754406
Ill google it right now to see hats its about, thanks

>>138755357
Your acting like as if I don't have a right to talk about Spain, the whole reason I'm interned in the topic is because my grandfather and mother came from Spain.

interested

>>138747461
Can you really say it works if they failed to defend themselves?

>>138757302
You could say the same about national socialism and fascism.

>>138757880
>>138757302
Well seeing that there populations was about 1.4 million and they where attacked buy everybody I say they made out okay

by

>>138757880
Agreed...what's your point?
Although Spanish Fascism did survive til Franco died...so i'm not sure if it failed..or if I can simply just consider it generally bad

>>138757996
Less than a year is hardly okay

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>>138757996
Perhaps there was good reason everybody attacked them. A friendly reminder - do you know who was loved by the Spanish people, and who lived to a ripe old age? GENERAL FRANCO, anon. GENERAL FRANCO.

>>138751013
>human nature

>>138758080
The only reason Franco lasted until his deaths because he was a pon of the US government, they all decided that they could use each other to stop the USSR. Franco was worried about a eventual war and didn't want to fall to Russia if something happened. The US always props up dictators. But the moment he handed the nation over to Juan Carlos he immediately transformed the nation into a constitutional republic and none of the people minded if anything they rejoiced besides the few hard liners.

>>138747461
What have you been reading about communism and anarchism?

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>>138758520
top kek outta no where 10/10 bantz

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>>138758599
But his legacy endured, whilst your "anarchists" are but a footnote in history, relevant only as an example of an inconvenience that was swiftly dealt with as General Franco rose to greatness. And, remember: GENERAL FRANCO, anon. GENERAL FRANCO.

>>138758599
So...it worked
Unless you are implying the reaction of foreign powers isn't something that should be considered.
There is no such thing as cheating in international politics...either your regime survives or it does not.
Personally I would hate to live under Franco, but that's because I'm not a fan of getting murdered by the government.

>>138758665
Some Chomsky the manifesto and Issac puente

>>138758884
Yeah but the point is that is the people didn't want it, its not working when fear of being exiled or killed is the glue that holds it together

>>138758945
A couple recommended books:
State and revolution by vladimir lenin
Wage labor and capital by karl marx
Value price and profit by karl marx

good grasp on Leninism and Marxist economics.

>>138759212
That's what rendered the government immoral...but that's different from saying it didn't work. It obviously did

>>138759218
I'm not a big Leninist because of what I know about the ideology from youtube videos but I'm always open minded, thanks

>>138759218
I remember community college...don't worry, you'll outgrow it

>>138747461
>Surprisingly worked well based off what I recently read.
If you want to try out anarchism, then you can just come to Europe. We have hundreds of areas for people that want to create experimental societies. They all start out fine, and they all end up as junkies living in their own filth.

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I would like to recommend "The Prime of Ms Jean Brodie" as viewing material for anons who have an interest in that Spanish war. I cannot help but hear "GENERAL FRANCO" in Maggie Smith's voice whenever I encounter his name in print.
>>138759212
Sounds like mob rule by "anarchists", who would do well to fear the swift and deadly vengeance of that man. GENERAL FRANCO, anon. GENERAL FRANCO.

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>>138747461

>>138759401
Well any government can work economically speaking, the soviet union lasted longer then Francos regime, if thats the idea then every government "works"

>>138759429
Alot of what people say is "leninism" was basically made up by stalin. In his books lenin never talks of a one party state and instead talks alot about the marxist idea of the state withering away and proletariat democracy.

>>138759542
I'm just interested in the ideologies I haven't decided what I believe to be true yet

>>138747461
>Surprisingly worked well based off what I recently read
It worked so well that just a few Spanish troops managed to put it down. Any anarchism, be it socialist, capitalist or whatever cannot compete with a organized state, no matter its economic model.
tldr: anarchism is a meme

>>138747461
They even wanted to undermine the legality of the Spanish Republic, so even Republicans and communists opposed that they convert Catalonia into a hippie commune separate from the rest of Spain

>>138759633
Now you get it
The only criteria for a government "working" is that it survives. Whether or not it's optimal or moral is a whole other conversation.

I would propose the Franco regime worked out better than the USSR, simply because the transition was peaceful and organized. The same can't be said about the Warsaw Pact

>>138759989
Thats a fallacy they where both distractive, you can't weigh immoral acts on a scale and say we killed 5 million less people then them so where the good guys. I don't see the world that way, not only that anybody who does the scaling has to be pathological

destructive

>>138759967
Here we go a Spanish dude, what say you, are you talking about modern day because I heard they want a referendum

>>138747461
>Surprisingly worked well
I've heard this many times and I doubt there's any more truth to this that other leftist myths. Every faction in the war was against them and it didn't last enough to show whether it was really working, but from what I know they really weren't that different from communism. Collectivised farms, killed clergymen, etc

Compare them to ISIS (commies) vs regular islamists (anarchists) in the Syrian War. They fight each other but Assad (Franco) is still better than both.

>>138760228
I'm not weighing their morality. You must keep this conversation in it's proper context.

This whole thing started with an assertion that the Catalonian Anarchist experiment worked. Morality is not a part of that analysis

>>138760398
Yeah my grandfather tells me stories of living in Spain growing up he liked it, but of course was a product of his time

>>138747461
Yeah, Spanish anarcho-communists were very successful... at getting crushed by Franco

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National-catholicism was ok , Spain was an industrialized country back then (around 60s and 70s)
unlike now.. it is a touristic butthole for northern europeans and my point of view is shit for next decade too

anyways poverty is increasing since 2008 with huge unemployment, every engineer has to migrate to Germany if he wants a fucking job.

and nobody helps us again
>>138760650
i post it again sry desu
>>138760650
>living in Spain growing up he liked it,
yes , US invested tons of money here,especially in car industry and my grandpa remembers some american companies like Texaco

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>>138760343
Yes, a government that overrepresents the small provinces and governs without the popular vote has called a false referendum for October 1. This lady has 7% of the votes and governs with liberals and social-democrats who also want independence (40% of the vote)

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>working
If you consider constant resource shortages, capital flight, the murder of clergy, the abolition of religious relief services, the breakdown of order in the countryside and inability to contend not only with Falangist and Francoist but also with other leftist parties as a success, then all the power to you.

>>138760443
Thats a good analogy
>>138760599
Yeah but where saying that Franco regime worked better then the USSR because the transition was "peaceful" and "organized" I'm just saying no they where both as bad because your basing it off of the "organization". And I'm just saying fro what I read the Anarchists worked because everybody was on board with the idea, which is always the argument when people say Anarchism doesn't work. I'm not defending anything but its undeniable that for the time it lasted the people loved it

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>>138747461
They were a bunch of murderous animals.

Probably worse than communists in regards of how many innocents they killed and the barbarities they did, yet they have this pink legend surrounding them as if they were some kind of naive good boys, freedom fighters and such, it's loathsome when you actually study history or hear first-hand stories about them.

Not long ago there was a remembrance of some peasants killed by the Anarchists because they refused to collectivize their small farms, the ironic thing is that the peasants were already part of a leftist organization, they weren't murdering "evil natzeehs".

https://www.diaridetarragona.com/ebre/La-Fatarella-dignifica-la-memria-dels-34-pagesos-morts-pels-anarquistes-fa-80-anys-20170128-0022.html

Yeah my grandfather tells me stories of living in Spain growing up he liked it, but of course was a product of his time>>138760971
Here

>>138761232
Oh...I was referring to a organized transition (Franco regime) vs a collapse (USSR). That's not really a moral distinction, unstable governments collapse, stable governments transition.

A lot of people love ideas that don't work. Popularity is not a reliable measure of effectiveness

>>138761011
I hear Catalonia is responsible for a good portion of Spains economy
>>138760971
>Texaco
Thats funny
>>138761271
Ill read the link, its always cool to hear different sides

>>138761536
Oh I see what your saying now, well I don't how the bronco regime is superior if based off of survivability because the transition has nothing to do with that. And the reason the Franco regime didn't transition under such hard ship was because towards the end they where basically capitalist and where not spending billions of dollars on anything other then there people, the history of the Soviet Union speaks for itself, the outside pressures of being in a constant state of war (practically) takes a strain on the economy. Look at the future the US holds. Nobody denies that capitalist institutions do better but they also lead to collapse if not regulated right, just like the USSR. So you can't say that a fair example to judge the two institutions.
And as for the judging of the people thats philosophical question and can either way

>>138761720
That was a strategy to fill Catalonia with real Spaniards from other regions. If they become independent they will become a mess. Nor would they have police or army, the Spanish companies would go to Spain and foreigners would go to another site that is in the EU. 40% of Catalans want to become independent because they think they are a non-Castilian colony like Mexico and 7% are communists who want to turn Catalonia into Castro's Cuba

>>138763037
I see, so are Catalonians different from other Spaniards genetically?

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>>138762952
There were also stronger, more predictable institutions than the USSR, which allowed for continuity of governance.

I'm not sure if I agree with your assertion that the two governments are not comparable. It is quite obvious that governments that make different decisions will have different outcomes. Franco's government made better decisions, at least in the sense that they didn't attempt to over extend themselves in ideological wars abroad.

This book is a great microcosm of what, institutionally, was wrong with the USSR as a government. The USA seems to still have stronger institutions than the USSR that behave in a more coherent fashion, but who knows what the future holds

>>138763838
No, they aren't. But they speak Catalan, a dialect of Latin very similar to Castilian/Spanish. When the regions of the Iberian peninsula were unified, Castilian was implanted as the language of the kingdom and some by nationalistic criteria don't like it in the 21st century. Some Catalans even say that the language taught in America should have been Catalan and not Castilian/Spanish.

>>138764997
I see why is that though? What your saying with Catalan and what not?
>>138764570
Its inevitable you can't have multiple trillionaires walking around ordering people, the mass inequality of wealth will eventually have a breaking point

>>138765760
Examples?

Outside of cases where the majority of people are unable to meet basic needs, I'm not sure if wealth disparity is destabilizing on its own

>>138765760
My English's level is the same a Mexican who just jumped the wall, can you repeat the question?

>>138766773
Why do you the Catalonians think that Catalan was suppose to be taught America instead?

>>138766649
Oh its all a country needs to fail, the wealth gap is the main reason why. But if where going to talk about the United States alone, we could say that the mixed model that where currently running is unsustainable as it continues on. The economy can't sustain this constant interventionism around the world while 20 trillions dollars in debt with socialist programs running in the background. Take on the idea of a middle thats becoming smaller and wealthier paying less and holding more. We have 589 bases around the world 25 percent of the GDP goes to the military. Add on to that the wars going on along with the proxy wars to come, war time is said to be Americas best time but it is failing us, private contractors are absorbing business, its not how it once was.

>>138767097
Because some Catalonians are crazy and they believe that Columbus, Cervantes or Da Vinci were Catalonians and some of them think that the history of Catalonia is manipulated by Castile

https://www.elpais.com/elpais/2014/11/25/inenglish/1416926983_487701.amp.html

>>138769049
Oh so it"s a prideful thing

>>138747461
catalonians are savage animals
and savagery is not anarchism

>>138769049
But wasn't Columbus Italian though? Lol

>>138769049
WE

>>138769477
WUZ

>>138769511
ACTUAL HUMANS, AND SHEEEEIIIIT

>>138769470
If you see a primary school textbook you would be frightened of what it puts there, but the Spanish government doesn't do anything because they are complexed by the Franco regime. Everything are insults to Spain since its origin. And there are also some insults to France

>>138747461
>Even the Leninist worked with the fascist to stomp them out.

In 1936 Germany was under Nazism, Italy was fascist - everyone from standard republicans to communists simply wanted Spain to remain a republic, like France or Switzerland.

The 1936 attempted coup by the right caused a number of things to happen, including anarchist workers taking over Catalonia. The problem is this alienated the US and the UK, French moderates etc. It was unsustainable.

These tactical things happen all the time...Greece could have easily became communist after World War II. Russia stood back and English and then American aid turned the ride. Russia had agreed to which countries it would be involved in at Yalta and it stayed to that. Left and right tactical shifts are necessary as the situation allows.

The problem for the Spanish anarchist workers is they were fighting the whole world, including everyone to their right in Spain, starting with the communists.

It's false that the non-anarchist Spanish left worked with the fascists. They did restore property rights however.

>>138769470
>>138771756
In Catalonians schools, of course. Each region control its own education and textbooks

>>138747461
I lived through anarchist spain, you can ask me anything.
Heads up, anarchism doesent work

>>138772410
Oh really? Thats a huge surprise! What was it like? Or are you just trolling me?

>>138768753
Those aren't examples anon. Also, only 3.3% of GDP goes to the military (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS), I think you are confusing GDP with the federal budget. Although the actual rate of the budget is harder to actually get a grasp on (16%-54% depending on source, but splitting the difference let's avg to ~30%). But all of this is a non sequitur.

What I asked for was examples of governments that collapsed solely from wealth inequality

>>138771756
>>138772091
So your telling me that they blatantly lie about history? Thats some nazi burn the books type shit lol

>>138759797
read bakunin, he dismembers communism

anarchism is very interesting, but its not a way to organize stuff, its a principle, its a very viable principle to live your live, but it unvariably leads people to the right

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>>138747461

>>138773493
Yes. And complaining about this makes you literally Franco. I had a catalan friend tell me how the "Catalan Nation" is hundreds of years older than Spain.

>some are indeed better then others
you mean one is worse than the other

>Surprisingly worked well based off what I recently read
Its not true, you know it and you are bullshiting like always

>exchange of knowledge
You mean your usual disingenious commie fag lies and history revisionism

>okay now lets beat my dead horse again
No. Fuck off back to leftyfaggots

SAGE

>>138774359
>>138773493
"Catalonia is an EU country" Here is a video of the news where some teachers report that the history is manipulated to reject Spain. (It's un Spanish)

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=0paZ-xng9GY

>>138774701
Carl?

>>138766773
Hey know Paco, surely there must be a bilingual wetback among 130 gorillions lol.

>>138773439
I figure I messed up I'm in three different threads right now so I'm kind of overwhelmed lol

>>138774826
>>138774359
Wow so there really detaching themselves from Spain then

>>138747461

>Apparently it worked and the fascist dictators of the time put aside there differences to crush them before the idea set into the people. Even the Leninist worked with the fascist to stomp them out.

dude what are smoking, the spanish civil war was going on, and they got crushed like the rest of republican spain.

The fact that they got totally decimated only shows what a shitty system that can't put up a fight it is.

>>138775068
It's all good. I'm heading back to /gif/. Too much politics is bad for the soul

>>138748920

Romans 13:2
Consequently, he who rebels against this authority is rebelling against what God has instituted.


oops

>>138765760
Its inevitable you can't have multiple trillionaires walking around ordering people

Lol, 10k years of humanity show you wrong commie

READ BAKUNIN

>>138775366
Lol right, take care dude

>>138775200
The Black Legend striking again. What remains of Spain and what remains of England is hardly going to give us to organize a football match with enough players

>>138775317
1 read history
2 reread through the thread if you want to know before posting what you think and not know

I feel like people talk about anarchism working here but they don't really know why.

>>138775838
Yeah sad times, this thread honestly got derailed to past of worthlessness lol but still some good convos

>>138776101

I think you need to reread history because the anarchist didn't take direct control of catalonia until after the military-coup that started the civil war.