DAILY REMINDER 4 MARXISTS

>>137555774
and what has the free market to do with this?

>>137555774
>Joseph Stalin sentenced 20 million+ of his own civilians (protesters, defectors, and intellectuals) to gulags, labor, and ultimately death (Siberian Road of Bones)

>20 million+

Well, progress, last time it was 100 million.
Maybe next time you will be closer to actual number.

>FREE MARKET 4EVER BITCHES
>USA! USA! USA!

56% Nation, who parasites on Europe and the rest of the world, rotting it with tolerance and degeneracy, speaks up.
Tell me, how it feels to whore off white legacy for a new Iphone?

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>>137555926
The United States is considered the world's premier free market economy (Capitalist). We don't execute ourselves by the millions...thousands maybe, but not millions.

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>>137557027
triggered

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>>137557529
There's no pictures...right?

>>137558524
good

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>>137557529
Your mental gymnastics are astonishing

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>>137557529
You're probably the guy arguing for cultural genocide in the United States after the rally the other day.

Muh 9 gorillion
Gr8 b8 m8

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>>137557529
You're just shilling now. Here, have some tits.

>>137555774
dude those stats are pure bullshit

>>137555774
>9 million + of the Jewish community
subtle JIDF post is subtle

>>137559150
ahhhhhhhh that sweet sweet julia...

>>137558786
>Cultural Genocide
Pray tell, what in the inseminated fuck is cultural genocide

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>>137559308

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/04/world/major-soviet-paper-says-20-million-died-as-victims-of-stalin.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqFBa9ePWpo

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>>137560073
It looks exactly like this

>>137560189
>However, Death Penalty is not for political crimes, and Cultural Revolution clashes were not directed by the Chinese government.
In an official capacity you autistic larping child.

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>>137560189
Fair enough.

My point is the Communist social, political, and economic ideology has been historically proven to be just as vicious as Fascism or even worse.
Let us remember Fascism is "traditionally" opposed to both international socialism and free market capitalism

I love America and all our flaws, cause at large (macro-scale)...people don't usually burn controversial books, tear down our historical statues (even is the man depicted prob was a cunt; it's still well crafted copper) or cover our women is black garbs of modesty...I LOVE OUR FAT TITS AND YOU CAN'T TAKE'EM FROM US

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>>137555774
>protesters, defectors, and (((intellectuals)))
But isn't this what /pol/ wants to do to their enemies? Stalin did literally noting wrong.

>muh billions of killed by Stalin
Sure.

>>137560259
>"""""""estimates""""", by the historian Roy Medvedev
in 1989, before full archives available, real numbers are less than half that, and are padded by executed nazis and nazi-sympathizers during and after ww2, of which he should have killed more.

also, China famine estimates in video are fantasy, but regardless, deaths from a famine are not
>"""""Mao Zedong executed 45 million..."""""

OP even got Hitler wrong too. but who cares.

as i said, pure bullshit

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>>137555774
>tfw Stalin murdered millions and millions of GOOD LITTLE LEFTISTS who are now screaming and twisting in hell where all leftists belong

It brings me incredible pleasure to imagine all of those good little red soldiers get back from WWII, only to be slammed into gulags, and to die clawing and the ground and crying into the frozen Earth because Stalin feared they might have seen just a little bit too much Capitalism.

Imagine Ivan sniffing in a ball, shuddering in Siberia, wishing his blanket was more than a millimeter thin. He p-punched the Nazis! Why does he have to dig trenches to the sea every day with his bare hands? He did exactly what Stalin told him to, why is uncle joe torturing him to death?

But he doesn't wake up the next morning to dig anything, he freezes to death, and slides face-first into nonexistence. His fate is just, as he is a Thief, a Leftist serving a Thief-empire, but it is also mercifully common, as millions of GOOD LITTLE LEFTISTS suffered precisely that way before, during, and after the war, and they will continue to suffer until the Soviet Union falls.

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>>137561647

>muh billions
no one has stated billions

Did you know if you counted a million seconds it would take 11.5 days.

Did you know if you counted a billion seconds it would take nearly 32 years.

>A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic. - Joseph Stalin

>>137555774
>Hitler
>Marxist

Kek

>>137555774
>1933
>be leftist in russia
>get killed by purges

>1955
>be leftist in china
>get killed in purges

>2017
>be leftist in US
>support communism

>>137561636
>My point is the Communist social, political, and economic ideology has been historically proven to be just as vicious as Fascism or even worse.

This is nonsense. Besides your numbers and causes being wrong it's comparing hugely different sizes of countries. Soviet Union had twice as many people as Nazi Germany, China three times as many. Also Nazi Germany lasted only 12 years while Stalin and Mao ruled more than twice as long. It also does not consider many other factors such as the enormous increase in life expectancy (saved lives) during Mao's rule in China, that Stalin or Mao did not start global world wars, etc. etc.

False equivalency is Nazi apologetics

>>137557027
Lol your the one that wants the government to kiss your fag ass

>>137555774
>civilians
that's not how you spell capitalists

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>>137562092
Truth

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>>137562092
Most of the people weren't communist party members. Most of the people weren't sent in prison regardless of how much (((capitalism))) they have seen.
Yes, I'm sure nazi ""work camps"" would have been much better than Siberian ""work camps"" if people haven't defended their homeland against invaders.

>>137562339
A known fake quote just like the rest of slandering propaganda. Hilarious.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Obelisk

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>>137560418
seems fine

>>137562840
>killed by purges
anarchists aren't real leftists family

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>>137562893
What's your clearly defined point confederate edgelord?

by the tone of your post im quite sure youre a reddit shill


and the kulaks deserved it all anyway so your point is moot

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>>137559150
>>137559469

Litteraly w...

>checks on her

I didn't knew I needed this in my life. Thanks.

>>137562092
>and they will continue to suffer until the Soviet Union falls.
riiight... because people in russia never suffered before 1917, or after 1989.
https://www.rt.com/politics/340158-most-russians-regret-ussr-has/

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>>137555774
Those numbers might be conservative if you rely on someone who was there.

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>>137563765
>Uncle Vladia spams russian textbooks with pro-communist propaganda, glorifying the GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR (tm)
>somehow, modern day russians are becoming nostalgic of an era they never knew, alongside braindead dinosaurs who survived it but could not adapt to capitalist neo-russia

What a big surprise.
Go see if you can buy yourself a new home somewhere around Moscow, and tell me which ones of your organs you had to sell to the mafia to be able to pay for it.
In such a shitty country, without money or job opportunities,and with uncle Poutine brainwashing you day and night by telling you that the old days were "totally-awesome-trust-me-guys-I'm-KGB", you too would start regretting the communist chimera real fast.

Also, don't forget to go to your church every morning to shriek "MUH ORTHODOXY" as well, like the good little russian drone that you are.

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>>137557529
maybe you ought to read some books, rather than parroting your comrades stupid bullshit from the internet.

seriously if you unironically believe communism is the answer, you really need professional help, and if youre signaling communism to reference anti-nazism, you need to educate yourself. communism was the reason for the rise of nazism. the commies tried to take germany, and the response to that was the nazis. you have to realize that the jews were pushing communism all over europe at that time, and that by the time hitler came to power, the bolshies in soviet russia had already purged millions. nazism was the response to communism, not the other way around

for whatever reason you support communism, if it is real or just to fit in with some other rejects, you are an idiot. a useful idiot.

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>>137563034
>fake quote
blind rationality

I'm just so sad I can't save you. In this blessed land of burgers and whores why can't you just be satisfied.

Reminder that Commies are raiding /pol/ hence the retards in this thread ignoring all of the murders carried out by their great leaders.

>>137555774
Stalin did not kill muh 100 gorillion people, 1 million died in the gulags and about 200k were executed over the course of thirty years, and half of the gulag deaths were due to supply shortages caused by fascist invaders anyway

meanwhile nazi aggression led to the deaths of 50+ million people over the course of a single decade

>>137565029
>muh Putin brainwashing
I guess that's why he gave awards to Solzhenitsyn, made his shitty fanfics a part of mandatory course of Russian literature and overall TV and church propaganda shit on Stalin as much as possible.

>glorifying the GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR
Oh yes, it'd be much better if those good little russian drones continued to hate themselves and wish they would have been killed by civilized European nazis.

>>137565050
Solzhenitsyn wrote fiction very loosely based on real events. He pulls numbers out of his ass and even admits that. Many ""facts"" were debunked even by actual former prisoners which weren't all so innocent actually.

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>>137565876
>and half of the gulag deaths were due to supply shortages caused by fascist invaders anyway

I bet you also believe that Staline didn't voluntarily let people resort to cannibalism during the Leningrad siege, famishing them to supposedly bolster their fighting spirit, and blamed the food shortage on Nazis even when the city's food stockpile was safe and secured by and for the russian military to use as they saw fit ?

lefty/pol/ in charge of history, people. You disgust me. Please, educate yourself before posting again.

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>>137565998
>I guess that's why he gave awards to Solzhenitsyn
In the year 2017 Solzhenitsyn would have acid thrown into his face and then killed by Chechens. Of course this has nothing to do with Putin though.

>>137566360
>liberashka anal fantasies
I guess 2007 was so much different and there was no Putin.

>>137555774

Deaths in Russia were because of Jewish Bolshevism. The deaths caused by the Nazis were to prevent what happened to the Russians from happening to the Germans

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>>137565876

>100 gorillion -(never stated)
>50+ million
say it with me now ....hy·per·bo·le

You must be one brain dead cuck to believe those numbers. Did you drop your septum piercing on the floor?

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>>137555774

Holy shit a sensible democrat am I hallucinating?!!!

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>>137555774
Daily reminder; Its illegal in America to be a Communist, punishable by 5 years & $10k fine. 68 Stat. 775, 50 U.S.C. 841-844

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>>137566514
>I guess 2007 was so much different
It was. General line of the party line swinging 180 degrees every few years is normal business for Russia.

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>>137566762
kek

>>137566655
believe what numbers? do you not believe for example, that hitler's aggression resulted in the killing of almost 30 million soviet citizens, with about 20 million of those being civilians? then of course you have all of the deaths on the allied side, all of deaths from germans who were conscripted to fight and die, and all of the deaths from the holocaust

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>>137566807
I did not know that. That's hilarious.

>>137555774
>9 million

sage this faggot troll

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>>137567690

>>137563185
Is there anything you commies won't steal?

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>>137555774

> 20 millions, not 200 gorrillions

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>>137555774
Why do the stupidest people pretend they know anything about communism when clearly they don't?
Sage

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>>137565876
god.... you must be ODing on these

poor fucker must be hungry

>>137557027
>parasites on Europe
Holy fuck we did it, we reached peak fucking retard

>>137555774
>Hitler and his men executed around 9 million+ of the Jewish community

You got to be fucking kidding me.

>>137570234
>>137567151
>>137565876
>>137565870
>>137560189
>>137558635
Hey comfags!


A 3 year old kid touches a piece of hot iron and will learn forever that touching hot iron hurts. A commie creates communism, kills tens of millions of people, and will want do it again.

>>137572522
so do you support capitalism, which has killed far more people than socialism? if we're just going by total death tolls then socialism is definitely preferable to capitalism

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>>137565876
Delirious plebbit commie faggot. Gtfo Jew. We know it's you!

>>137555774
Lol, 40% brazilians love Soviet Union and wanna make an new URSS here. Its so sad.

>>137572692
How many people have died in capitalist gulags? Don't bother counting, just start larping about "But, but 3 billion people died in capitalism, if we had communism, nobody would die, people would live forever!"

>>137565050
>read some books
>post picture of a fascist fantasy author
lmao

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>>137570234
Work and plenty for all?

>>no work and PLENTY OF NOTHING FOR ALL YOU MEAN!

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>>137573125
Read no books, learn muh vagina-nu-male femnazism in libtard colleg, now shit post on 4chan about failism (((communism))) NECK YOURSELF ALREADY YOU STUPID FAGGOT KIKE

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>>137573334
Here's a more in concise picture, but I like yours too :)

>>137573066
I don't know how many people have died under systems of capitalist penal labor (which were quite brutal early in capitalism's history) but if we were to just look at starvation statistics we would see that about 150 million people have starved to death in the 21st century alone, and the combined death toll of WW1 and WW2 is about 80 million, these deaths alone would be over twice as high as the fabled 100 million figure given for communism (which is bullshit anyways)

>>137573066
The rate of incarceration in contemporary US is higher than under Stalin. Capitalism starved people to death with polticial motives many times, sich as the Potato Famine in Ireland or the Bengali Famine which was worse than any famine that every occurred under a socialist government.

>Fascism is terrible, but Communism is worse.
Agree with this, Europe was devasted by nazism, fascism and communism in less than 50 years.
Fuck you if you are european and support any of these three.

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>>137573334
>Marxism is about muh liberal LGBTQ+ feminism struggle
A wild burger appears

>>137555774
>9 grillion

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>>137573460
>>137573479
>both of these subhumans don't realize dark occultists and subversive think tanks own every country with a national debt
LMAO. ANYWAY, back in reality. you're not a human being and don't have rights if you want to violate the natural law rights of other human beings. kys.

>>137573423
Yes no shit I want people to be responsible for themselves. That's why I don't want people not being able to keep the fruits of their labor.

The US has killed approximately 40 million people over the past century through hundreds of conflicts, orchestrated coups and proxie wars yet you gullible idiots believe that the Soviet Union killed 80 gorillon innocent people for reasons. Did it ever occur to you that the Soviet Union's greatest enemy would utilize propaganda against them and make up bullshit statistics?
No of course it didn't, you're used to taking it in the ass from your government and corporate owners and don't want to question that maybe everything you've been told is a lie.

>>137573777
Can you word that differently? You make zero sense. I can't comprehend 65 IQ mongrel babble.

>>137573717
>hurrdurr you're a Keynesian
Again, you are hitting air billy. Maybe try again and you won't hit a strawman this time.

>>137573717
fuck your bourgeois "rights" and your austrian nonsense

>>137555774
>9 million+ of the Jewish community
>9 million

>>137573899
How the fuck can word something differently that's already dumbed down for you?

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>>137563904
>66 million
Even his own wife called him on his bullshit.

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>>137555774
One would think that the 20th century would itself be a plentiful reminder of how higher magnitudes of authoritarianism or socialism don't work, and often lead to death, famine, and war.
But nope, people just want gibs.
People want safety and security, but they're willing to give up freedom in order to get it.
They deserve nought.

>>137573573
>dat flag
Your neoliberal austerity project has basically ruined Europe at this point. The damage might not even be reversible.

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>>137574031
May 1st is the high holiday of Satanism and the dark occult.
May 1st also happens to be international workers day.

This is an ideology pedaled by satanic subversives and controllers, used throughout the ages to depopulate or degenerate a society whenever needed.

Also I'm not an Austrian, I'm not anything, maybe an anarchist. Its not up to me to decide what's good for the market, its the market itself. Durr?

>>137574131
>Yes no shit I want people to be responsible for themselves.
You want a man to be responsible for himself. Okay.
>That's why I don't want people not being able to keep the fruits of their labor.
This makes no sense, you advocate for 100% confiscation of the fruits of labor, yet you still want people to keep it. Are you a statist or freeman?

>>137555774
Kill all non red haired/green eyed people Kill all black haired people Kill blondes too idgaf they're vermin as much as the jew I'm talking to you too nazi/kkk fucking kill nazis/kkk people nuke them all to oblivion let Ronald McDonald fucking do it if you have black hair color kkkkkyyyysssss Anytime I ever see anyone with black colored hair sympathize with being white I just wanna say "fucking kiiill yourself" RED HAIR SUPREMACY BLACK HAIR HATE HATE THE BLACKIE BLACK COLOURED HAIR IS FROM THE DEVIL KILL BLACK HAIRED PEOPLE

>>137573848
News are fake until they align with your (already preprogrammed) beliefs.

>>137572692
Worst argument there is

Capitalism has longevity. A slow bleed of deaths over 1000+ years of capitalism is not worse than a sky high mortality rate in the less than 100 total years communism, has been implemented.

Capitalism has existed for centuries.
Communism grew out of the 1900s.

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Morality is OBJECTIVE and EXISTS as an invisible, immutable, binding, law(s) of nature.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIEemKcy-4E

>>137574514
>This makes no sense, you advocate for 100% confiscation of the fruits
Literally capitalism. You can't keep what you produce. Obviously in a specialized economy, you can't just having everybody taking home his products for labor. What Marxist advocate is the abbolition of private (isolated) ownership, which includes the self-abolition of proletarians (wage-laborers) and the commodities they produce by allocating the remnant of surplus value for market (relationship between isolated producers) exchange.

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>>137574602
Sauce for quote:
Congressman Charles A. Lindbergh, The Economic Pinch, 1921

>>137574784
Considering that capitalism kills 20 million people in 5 years due to a) lack of clean water, b) hunger and c) lack of access to existing vaccines even if the whole world was communist for the last 100 years, and the alleged numbers in the Black Book of Communism were true (they're not), capitalism STILL would kill more people on average.
>Capitalism has existed for centuries
Barely 200 years.

>>137574784
>1000+ years of capitalism
capitalism has only been the dominant mode of production for a few centuries, and capitalism has a higher death toll for the past 20 years alone than socialism in 100 years

>>137572522
>kills tens of millions of people
Except that never happened.

>>137574922
Literally not, though.
In capitalism, that person exchanges it for something he needs (currency, or something else)
In socialism/communism, everyone else gets it for free.

>>137555774
Yeah but communism is the future.

Checkmate capitalists.

>>137565876
The delusion fucking 'ell

>>137575316
>muh free exchange
Go away with your "shipwrecked on an isolated island" scenario. In capitalism the proletarian has nothing to sell but his labor power, he has no leverage over his employment due to the reserve army of labor (artifical unemployment). Your hot take is ignoring the existing preconditions. Extraction is surplus value can occur a) directly through the bourgeoisie and also indirectly through the existence of a profit motive itself, which leads to production for exchange (instead of production for use) and the commodity form (commodity fetishism). Case in point: A market economy that entirely consists of cooperatives instead of privately owned businesses (Mutualism) would still be capitalism, just socialized capital.
>In socialism/communism, everyone else gets it for free
Not true. Why would you say something like that? Lenin literally coined the phrase "the one who does not work, shall not eat". There was no unemployment in the USSR until the very last years of its existence.

>>137555774
The retardation affecting this post is not possible to describe.

Communists in the USSR killled 100 Million People (Civil war, 20s purges, Siberian deportations,Gulags,Ukranian Wheat crisis,Deportation of ethnic minorities in the Caucasus,Baltics,Ukraine and Central Asia to Kazakhstan,Genocide on Germans in Eastern Europe, killing 240.000 women and girls just through the effects of rape,ethnic cleansing in Galicia,Wohyinia and Poland,Leon Trotzkys atttrocities,30s purges,40s purges,50s purges, multiple more massacres and starvation periods etc.)
Mao Zedong killed over 200 Million at least, Chinese civil War, WW2, afterwards starvation,catastrophes and Terror.

They also caused deaths through supporting and fighting various sides, in the Wars in Korea,Vietnam,Cambodia,Laos,Afghanistan and Chechnya.

Nearly everyone existing claims People only 6.7 Million Jews were killed, some guy who made accurate resaerch found out it well could have been under 6 Million, also do not Forget that many deaths were just caused through shortage of food supplies, desease etc. get education!

>>137574131
>How the fuck can word something differently
>how as a commie can i even word things differently
>How dus one even word thy words different
>how the fuck in under god do i even word it differently
>can someone even word what i said any differently

just saying theres ways and they don't have to very just make sense to the reader but its communism so its doesn't make sense ether way

>>137574449
>dat flag
>ruined
>damage
Yeah yeah Mr.Wall.

>>137555774
Stalin killed about 60million if not more. But marxist revisionists toned it down.

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>>137576392
Sup Robert Conquest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOnIp69r6vg

>>137575286
Communist fucktard goes to 4chan, talks bullshit statistics, lists no sources. "MUH CAPITALISM" Many such cases!

>>137576392
>100 million in the USSR
>200 million in China
Wew, you are a walking retard. I guess Stalin and Mao must have had those judeo-bolshevik magicks which allowed them to achieve population growth while simultaneously killing two third of their own population. And also not surprising you are shifting the blame on communists when countries like Vietnam fought for their independence against imperialism and colonialism.

Geh sterben, Julian.

>Lenin literally coined the phrase "the one who does not work, shall not eat".
This is a St. Paul quote, you uncultured commie.

>>137576461
>keeping the fruits of your labor
>lol I don't understand pls word differently for me
Imagine being triggered so much that you get a brain seizure

>>137576799
Meant to quote this comrade >>137576235

>>137576799
That's why I said COINED. Reading comprehension.

>>137577011
Are you aware that "to coin" means "to invent"?

>>137576879
>splurging autism of repeated phrases
>not just saying what you earn you keep

its not the case anyway its all a con and your a fuckin twat

>say everyones equal
>select a few people to control all the resources
>people starve
>so they steal everything people earned to others
>have no resources left and die

>>137577011
Did you get your education in a communist country as well?

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>>137575301
Rewriting history, eh? Was the 20th century in its entirety not a good enough REDpill?

>>137575286
Capitalism is not what you think it is. Capitalism, as an economic principle, has been around since the dawn of man. In fact, it (depending on what research papers you choose to read) precedes it. Animals trade with each other all throughout the course of history in exchange for abstract or tangible goods (protection being abstract).
Unfortunately, communism has also been a part of the animal kingdom, but whatever. It is functionally incompatible with humanity, because in order to institute communism, you need to take away the human will. That desire to better oneself. The urge to invent, to flourish and become wealthy. None of that is possible under communism, because it's all for one and one for all.
Why would you invent something, when you yourself cannot reap the benefits? Sure, you could say "muh altruism", but that has caused but a very small percentage of things ever invented.
Greed, friend. Greed is what drives progress. But greed is scary to the common man, because the world says "No. Greed is evil." while leeching off its benefits.

>>137576235
You're right in saying the common man has but the clothes on his back and his work ethic to offer. This is true. However, assuming that is where he will remain is telling of a victim complex common with the modern-day "revolutionary". Artificial unemployment doesn't occur in an unregulated free-market economy, because the demand for labor will always exceed the availability (even if it shifts to other markets. Case in point, all those guys making horseshoes could go work in the factories making car parts post-Ford).
(Continued)

>>137577304

>Extraction is surplus value can occur a) directly through the bourgeoisie and also indirectly through the existence of a profit motive itself, which leads to production for exchange
If I trade you 3 chickens for a pig, you are exploiting me.
The problem arises when you follow the labour theory of value and determine that the capitalist is actually skimming the worker's due wages, as opposed to gaining the surplus value that arises from the exploitation of a number of available resources to produce something better.

Socialism (and communism) are all about the distribution of wealth. If you don't give someone the incentive to work (e.g. COMPENSATION), why would they want to?
Why would you have to build a wall to keep the East Germans in?
Why would you have bread lines a mile long, and cannibalism becomes a silent truth?

>>137577222
>not just saying what you earn you keep
But that's not what I was saying. That's obviously a very different statement. "Earning" is a moral category after all, isn't it?

>>137577456
Additionally, as an employee of a business, you are deferring most of the risk to the business owner (capitalist) in exchange for lower risk and lower pay. It's equal reward in accordance with equal risk. Not exploitation in the negative sense, as you've put it.

>>137577011
>this fucking dumb

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>>137557529
>Mao killed noone

>>137577499
>"Earning" is a moral category
your unbelievable.

just this guy man, so this is how cannibalism is allowed in places like china to this modern day

i bet any money your the type to be like ''but what is being gay'' when so one calls you a complete faggot

>>137577304
>It is functionally incompatible with humanity
You mentioned communism in the animal kingdom, so why don't you admit that humans have been living under primitive communism for 100k years? Land wasn't owned and resources were in abundance.
>However, assuming that is where he will remain is telling of a victim complex
No, it's how the economy works. It's empirically impossible for everyone to be a business owner. The economy needs the majority of people to be wage workers.
>Artificial unemployment doesn't occur in an unregulated free-market economy
Ad hoc claim since unemployment has always existed in capitalism, maybe with exceptions during war time or the very dawn of the industrial revolution. It is in the interest of the capitalist to reduce the amount of wage laborers in his firm to reduce production costs. Therefore you get one guy working 10 yours instead of two guys working five hours in capitalism. Secondly, it is always the interested of the employer to have access to a reserve army of labor. If there was actual shortage of labor, like in Ancient Rome, the employee would indeed have leverage over the employer because he couldn't be replaced, but this is not the case.
>If I trade you 3 chickens for a pig, you are exploiting me
That's mutual barter. That's not wage labor.
>The problem arises when you follow the labour theory of value and determine that the capitalist is actually skimming the worker's due wages
The labor theory of value doesn't come to that result, it's a theory to determine equilibrium prices. From the implications of the results of the theory we can deduct that the rate of exploitation of workers grows over time - I'm saying rate of exploitation, not misery! A steel worker in 1860 was obviously worse off than a worker in a car factory in 2017, yet, the latter gets more exploited because he produces more value.

>>137577304
>If you don't give someone the incentive to work (e.g. COMPENSATION), why would they want to?
Strawman. Why would you say this? In socialism workers do receive compensation according to their performance, which they can spend on consumer goods as they see fit. Marx personally advocated labor vouchers in Critique of the Gotha Program.
>Why would you have bread lines a mile long, and cannibalism becomes a silent truth?
Yeah the siege of Leningrad was bad. What is that supposed to prove? I can tell you horrorstories about events under capitalism as well. Ever checked out the Bengali Famine? Ironically, capitalism had breadlines before socialism.

>>137579372
>>137579604
Stefan Molyneux

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZhqPC6d_DA

>>137555774
>9 million
What the actual fuck?

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man I fucking love capitalism hell yeeeah

>>137555774
You guys own the USA. Virginia was a huge mistake for the right, and now they totally lost the right to speak their minds. Dunno whom idea was that, probably the nazi brainlets, now the whole right is fucked. Let the pestilence and famine come to the USA.

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>>137573621
Yo Jew stfu and kill yourself already. Fucking commie faggot nigger kike dick shit head. I can't wait to bust the next faggot that comes up to me in person with this nigger Jew commie shit. Kick your fucking shrimp kike dick into your lox loving stomach

>>137565876
The proletariat is a spook. Nigga why do you care about a couple of guys you go to work with more than your blood, ancestry and nation? You're all just cockholsters of the rootless bourgeois Jews who created your little movement in order to raze society and re-establish Feudalism where they are princes ruling over a mud-race. You're all so naive, laughing at your lives. Useful idiots. HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA

>>137580123
>le not an argument man
The guy is the most dishonest fucker and a cult leader. See how he never actually let's the caller finish his sentence and diverts from topic everytime he feels cornered.

>>137580689
holy shit that amount of buzzwords

you ok, man?

>PEOPLE ARE STARVING QUICK WHAT SHOULD WE DO
>now is the time to execute as many people as possible so we have less mouths to feed
>execute or work your enemies to death
>two birds one stone

>>137580717
>i refuse to listen to facts that aren't state approved

Cuba would be proud

also when those callers try to make a point there trying to dodge him with an answer because they feel cornered

>>137580695
>complaining about spooks
>brings up muh ancestry and blood

>>137580695
Your post is dark magic, did you just invert marxist theory, sprinkle some antisemitism and stirnernism and use it against the working class?

>>137581039
I haven't even watched the video dude. If you seriously believe Molyneux is an intellectual heavyweight you are beyond saving. Also
>communist
>adheres to mainstream media
Try again.

>>137557088
>not executing the jews capitalists pigs

>>137579372
> It's empirically impossible for everyone to be a business owner.
It's not impossible to have anyone have the opportunity to become one though.

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>>137581281
>I haven't even watched the video dude
yep because its not state approved

yeh soviet union never fell for mainstream advertising meme.. am i right

>>137558752
>AT LEAST THEY AREN'T UNDER MONARCHIC OR FACIST RULE!

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>>137555774
>Fascism is terrible
nice try shlomo

>>137581732
I have better things to do than listening to hour-long ramblings of a walking meme. Like, reading actual theory.

>>137582110
>talk about muh mythological roots and organic unity and all labour related conflicts will solve themselves

ah yes

>>137582176
>la la la la la la i cant hear anything la la la la la
your so fuckin pathetic

take some personal countability for once in your shit life you fuckin gimp and admit your wrong.

>>137555774
So you're saying if we can organize and rise up we can kill the approx dozens of millions of lefties, blacks, and spics and clean up this country up??????

WHY ARE WE NOT?????

>>137555774
and not enough people in my opinion

>>137557027
Whats it like knowing that USA will never be communist?

Reminder that the communist party here gets less than 500 votes a year.

You lost. Not even Russia is communist anymore. Goodbye!!!

>>137555774
I don't get how this isn't blatant advertisement for us. We need to kill off approx 100 million or more of the US population to fix this shitty country from going down the toilet.

>>137583208
This country has all the benefits of a communist country as long as you're black or mexican, the gubment just takes the money from the white people and gives it to them.

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>>137575301
Except it did happen what you forget is the 6 golliriam kikes that were frickazied in the big bad hitler ovens lmao. KILL YOURSELVES YOU FUCKING KIKES YOU FUCKING FAGGOTS ARENT GOING TO CHANGE OUR MINDS.

Now run off and prep Jamal to stick his stinking circumsiced nigger dick up your mother and fathers fat oversized kosher meat loving asses

>>137581123
Communism is a spook and you know it deep down. It was invented by a group of bourgeoise kikes to tear down Western civilization, morality, religion and family. It's merely a tool, a mindvirus designed to debilitate its host and bring about a volatile state of anarchy in which a click of feudal princes can seize control again following the disastrous industrial revolution that raised the living standards for everyone and made the bourgeoise fall from grace and become less Zarathustrian. That's what's happened every time. How can your ilk even exist anymore? How can you not realize that you're cockholster puppets?
>M-m-means of production
>M-m-muh porky
Your entire ideology is a broken record. A bad mixtape of failed songs sitting in some rundown shak getting mouldy. It's over for you. Back to the drawing board boyo.

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Waiting for new and original arguments against communist...

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>>137583567
>nazicucks
>winning
Pick one.

>>137583450
yeah, Marx's theory amounts to the principle that people should get muh gibs and not work


right...

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>>137583759
>>being a kike
>> & being human?
Pick one sholomo. Obviously you niggers can't wait to get back into those concentration camps. Not that they were anything bad of course as we know from spending a few hours on this site.

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>>137583618
>capital is spook

won't be long until you feel the real weight of it meatcuck

>>137579372
>>137579604
This is gonna be a long one, brace yourself.

>Land wasn't owned and resources were in abundance.
Patently false. Land has been disputed since literally before humans have been around.
What is territorial behavior?
>It's empirically impossible for everyone to be a business owner
Not really. You can be a business owner, and still be a wage worker.
What is being a contractor?
>unemployment has always existed in capitalism
Correct. But you said artificial unemployment. Artificial unemployment would not occur for the precise reason I stated.
>It is in the interest of the capitalist to reduce the amount of wage laborers in his firm to reduce production costs
Very good!
>Therefore you get one guy working 10 hours instead of two guys working five hours in capitalism
That's assuming that one guy can do it just as well, and that his cost is less. And not everybody's that good at their job.
Though you are correct, if the capitalist can get a higher export at a lower cost using that one guy, he will. And do you know what happens when those two get fired? They find a new job!
>it is always the interested of the employer to have access to a reserve army of labor
Yes.
>the employee would indeed have leverage over the employer because he couldn't be replaced, but this is not the case.
That's assuming, again, that the employee isn't cheaper, or better, than the reserve.
And even in the event that it happens, which it does, the employee can find a new job.
>That's mutual barter. That's not wage labor.
It was more a jab at you than something to be taken seriously, I apologize for that.
(cont.)

>>137584173
>The labor theory of value doesn't come to that result, it's a theory to determine equilibrium prices.
>From the implications of the results of the theory we can deduct that the rate of exploitation of workers grows over time - I'm saying rate of exploitation, not misery!
That's exactly what I'm talking about.
If you follow it through to its logical conclusion, you get exactly what I said. The rate of exploitation goes up, to what end? Skimming the worker's due wages.
>A steel worker in 1860 was obviously worse off than a worker in a car factory in 2017, yet, the latter gets more exploited because he produces more value.
Not even going to mention the fact that the majority of car manufacturing is automated. However, you're right!
He is exploited more, however, he's exploited in the exact sense of the word: "to utilize, especially for profit; turn to practical account."
>Strawman
Nah man, I don't strawman on purpose, and in this case I wasn't either. Allow me to explain:
>In socialism workers do receive compensation according to their performance, which they can spend on consumer goods as they see fit.
You just explained capitalism. The difference, however, is that everything you earn is yours.
Every implementation of socialism requires taxation, and often at a high percentage (See: Prodrazvyorstka, the Turnover tax, Prodnalog, the Ural-Siberian method, the tax on trees, international trading tax stamp)
Additionally, 12% from the first 100 rubles per month and 8.6% from anything over 100 rubles per month plus 5% from total earnings for childless people was taken. And only Komsomol members were charged the dues.
>I can tell you horrorstories about events under capitalism as well
Look, death count isn't a dick comparing contest. But you cannot compare capitalism's deaths (passive), to communism's deaths (malignant).

>>137584215 (Last one)
>Bengali Famine
Not familiar with this, but based off five minutes of Googling:
Caused by:
* Inefficient agricultural practices
* Usury and land grabbing from the state
* Natural disasters
* War-time inflation
* Japanese occupation of Burma leading to rice shortages
* Disruption of Bengal's market supplies and transport systems by the preemptive, defensive scorched earth tactics of the Raj
* Massive inflation brought on by repeated policy failures, war profiteering, speculation, and perhaps hoarding.
* Government prioritised military and defense needs over the rural poor
All of these factors were further compounded by restricted access to grain: domestic sources were constrained by emergency inter-provincial trade barriers, while access to international sources was largely denied by the War Cabinet of Great Britain.
>Ironically, capitalism had breadlines before socialism
Because it came first ;)

All this aside, I find it interesting that you refer to workers and capitalists as two separate and distinct classes, as if a worker is not and cannot be a capitalist.
Why draw the line there? Genuinely curious.

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>>137584008
I swear, with God as my witness kikes have to brain of fucking little piss spewing cunts. You fucking gash for brains period blood loving homos really are fucking retarded spawn of satan cause no other reason could make something so hideous and retarded at the same time.

>>137584393
Your brain is overloaded on pol memes, as evidenced by your incomprehensible posts. You should take a break for your own good.

>>137584260
>Bengali Famine
>Caused by: lists 1000 different factors
>Soviet famine
>no real reason, commies are just bad lol

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>>137584924
J is for Jurassic, the scale of the strawman you just shat out.

>>137583790
What is "all the benefits of"

>>137584924
Mao china just had abit of ''bad luck'' right?

>45 million people were worked, starved or beaten to death

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/maos-great-leap-forward-killed-45-million-in-four-years-2081630.html


lets not forget this fun fact genocide programs.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landlord_Classicide_under_Mao_Zedong

>>137584173
>Land has been disputed since literally before humans have been around.
What is territorial behavior?
There is a difference between private property right and the usage of a hunting ground. The latter is basically some "natural" right of usufruct that is stated through a real act of showing presence. You leave your hunting ground, other tribes come in an use it. Before the neolithic revolution, there was enough land for everybody. Conflicts would barely arise, it was more advantageous for hunters and gathered to avoid it and just move on to a non-inhabited area. Private property is not a real, materialist act - it's an abstract concept, it is possible for a landowner to live on another continent yet still enforce private property rights and extort rents from it, through state violence, no less.
>Not really. You can be a business owner, and still be a wage worker
I never dispute that. In fact, many business owners are self-employed in their own company as CEOs. But that doesn't make them less bourgeoisie, they still own the means of production.
>artifical unemployment
To clarify, Marxists view all capitalist unemployment as artifical. There was no unemployment before capitalism, and there is none in socialism. The USSR had a constitutionally enshrined right to work.

>>137584173
>And do you know what happens when those two get fired? They find a new job!
Which, depending on their profession, will be more or less the same. There is a labor market, and same with the consumer market, there is some sort of equilibrium wage which determines roughly how much somebody is paid and how the reality of a job is.
>That's assuming, again, that the employee isn't cheaper, or better, than the reserve
Sure, there can be some very specialized jobs, and also you could just be blessed with a unique genius that makes you unreplaceable, but most labor can be easily replaced. In Europe we have agencies bringing in busloads of Romanians who work for next to nothing. They aren't necessarily badly educated. They just do work for less. Also, it is worth noting that the labor theory of value works with unskilled labor time that is generally reproducible.
>Skimming the worker's due wages
In the end, yeah, I guess. This leads to inequality.

>>137584173
>to utilize, especially for profit; turn to practical account
He has no relation to this practicality. In capitalism, workers are alienated from their labor. But that wouldn't even be my main point: Another tenet of Marxism is the rejection of production for exchange/profit motive and the market as a preferable method of allocation of goods and determination over whether or not something is worth producing. Millions of people work in PR or advertisement. We think that this is wasted human potential. We want to abolish the commodity form and produce goods for use, not for exchange.
>taxes in the USSR
That's a little bit of cherrypicking since socialist countries, even fucking North Korea, usually don't have any meaningful form of taxation, as in: Income taxes. Taxes in socialism are a little bit of an oxymoron, since all the enterprises are collectived anyway. It makes no sense to pay someone a salary only to take it away from him by the same entity that handed out the salary.
>But you cannot compare capitalism's deaths (passive), to communism's deaths (malignant)
How is a famine intentional? Do you seriously believe Stalin wanted to genocide the Ukrainians? We have the telegraphs where we can clearly see that authorities didn't realized what was going on and then immediately redirected the allocation of food into the famine-striken areas. Also, this theory is debunked through the fact that many other ethnicities were afflicted by this drought as well, not just Ukrainians, however, the latter managed to propagandize it very well

>>137584260
>causes of the Bengali Famine
See, this is where our perception is vastly different. We see these phenomenons that you mentioned not as some outside force that intervenes with the natural order of things in the capitalist economy like Austrians do, we see them as inherently interlocked with the capitalist mode of production. But don't you see how weak this argument becomes when you argue against communism based on death toll? If you say that these elements are not inherent to capitalism, I can as well just say that the elements led to deaths under socialism aren't inherent to socialism as well, rather they are an outside force messing things up. Don't measure with two different standards.
>All this aside, I find it interesting that you refer to workers and capitalists as two separate and distinct classes
Classes are only the relation of somebody to the relations of production, not how wealthy somebody is (although this being an indicator). The manager of a global corporation is technically working class, even a CEO is technically working class.

>>137587247
>and there is none in socialism. The USSR had a constitutionally enshrined right to work.

i would cut your throat and watch you gurgle away for this sentence, you ignorant swine.

>>137583640
It has never been tried so how can you know it will work in practice?

>>137587247
>There is a difference between private property right and the usage of a hunting ground

wrong its the same thing a pack of wolves could show you that

also the state is just gonna use your own larping to take everything you have anyway and by the end die in a labor camp but ''for the greater good comrade'' and all that.

DAMAGE CONTROL
>>137588077
>>137587373
>>137587333
>>137587247

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>>137588135
kek. Stay mad Pavel.

>>137589095
So the pack of wolves extort rent from animals from a hunting ground they've left two years ago? Are you fucking kidding me? Learn the difference between right of usufruct and private property. This is a very old concept, with basis in pre-Roman law.
>discussions are damage control
This is your brain on memes

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>>137588135
Try harder

>>137587247
That's not territorial behavior, though.
>Territorial behaviour, in zoology, the methods by which an animal, or group of animals, protects its territory from incursions by others of its species.
>Private property is not a real, materialist act - it's an abstract concept, it is possible for a landowner to live on another continent yet still enforce private property rights and extort rents from it, through state violence, no less.
Private property is very much a real, materialist act. If I homestead a property, it's then mine. You can dispute that, but I can defend my claim with force.
You don't need a state to protect private property at all, even if you're on another continent. There's this neat thing larger companies do, called private security.
>But that doesn't make them less bourgeoisie, they still own the means of production.
Correct. And? Communists treat the word Bourgeoisie like it's profane, but with out these people, you'd have nothing.
>To clarify, Marxists view all capitalist unemployment as artifical.
Ah, thank you for clarifying. I wasn't sure if that was the case or not.
>There was no unemployment before capitalism, and there is none in socialism.
You're correct on both points, actually.
There was no unemployment before capitalism, because the concept of a job didn't exist.
There is none in socialism, because if you don't work, you die, whether it be from starvation, or being shot, as was the case in Mao's glorious revolution or Stalin's happy fun times.

>>137587333
>most labor can be easily replaced
Very true. However, in a free market, there are an infinite number of opportunities, because it's a fully competitive market.
That doesn't necessarily mean it'll be the same level, or even the same profession, but if a market is oversaturated, people adjust accordingly.
The invisible hand of the market does work, the problem is that current economics are some ugly variation of Keynesian economics, which is, to be hyperbolic, economic fascism.

>>137587373
>He has no relation to this practicality. In capitalism, workers are alienated from their labor.
Explain.
>Another tenet of Marxism is the rejection of production for exchange/profit motive and the market as a preferable method of allocation of goods and determination over whether or not something is worth producing.
So, to summarize (If I generalize too far, please correct me), you want a central state that does all the market planning, cost determination, and wage allocation?
>Millions of people work in PR or advertisement. We think that this is wasted human potential.
Interesting. I always thought it was a waste of human potential too, until I started contracting with MarketTrack. I've since changed my mind, almost a complete 180.
>We want to abolish the commodity form and produce goods for use, not for exchange.
Why can it not be both?
>That's a little bit of cherrypicking since socialist countries, even fucking North Korea, usually don't have any meaningful form of taxation, as in: Income taxes.
You got me there, sorry for that. Got a little ahead of myself, trying to rush along so the thread didn't die.
However, quick side note, you don't need income tax when you set the income. You can just take whatever you want, and nobody will be any wiser, as is the case in socialist countries.
>How is a famine intentional?
When it's a direct consequence of central planning, it's hard to see it as not intentional. Perhaps my wording was a bit too harsh.
>Do you seriously believe Stalin wanted to genocide the Ukrainians?
I'm not familiar enough to believe it or not.

>>137588077
>We see these phenomenons that you mentioned not as some outside force that intervenes with the natural order of things in the capitalist economy
It's not an outside force, though. When you shove a government into a laissez-faire market, it becomes an entirely different problem.
It's a direct intervention from the overshadowing central planners.
>But don't you see how weak this argument becomes when you argue against communism based on death toll?
That's why I haven't. Because it doesn't work no matter what economic or ideological stance you have, death is an inherent feature to life, and is not bound by ideology.
>I can as well just say that the elements led to deaths under socialism aren't inherent to socialism as well, rather they are an outside force messing things up
Unfortunately though, this is not the case. (Many of) the deaths that socialism has wrought was a direct consequence of influencing the market. Central planning doesn't work, otherwise your socialist utopias would've sustained themselves instead of dwindling the population and incentive to stay.
You could make a case that the US is doing fine, but we're heading towards a gargantuan correction in the housing and student loan markets, which is also a consequence of central planning (Federal Reserve / central banking)

>>137590775
I realize that the 2nd and 3rd points contradict, but there is a difference (like I said) between passive deaths and deaths that are a direct consequence of the ideology.
I cede that it doesn't make for a great case, but it's the truth, so I don't feel concerned about it.

>>137590584
My sentence was supposed to point out that the communist swine have no idea how did the working day looked during the communism, otherwise he would never be able to say something as stupid that only marxist could come up with it.
Everyday communist convince me that they are raging hypocrites that have no idea about the class they claim to speak for, since they themselves are not a part of that class.

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Yeah But Hitler was so much more hardcore.
He used Holo-coasters, bear and eagle cages, and he even killed 60 gorillion billion Jews in un-sealed gas chambers, with wooden doors and single pane glass windows.

Or you hate Jews.

>>137589586
recognizing that its their grounds and you don't walk in a wolves den , throw them food and they'l might spare you

the dogs would seeing as letting him stay alive around them under conditions of food

letting and keep is used for a reason when being asked to pay rent

owner of a property would and should do the same, you want to live here then you must pay keep letting out a property is a go ahead of one to stay for a space of time in a property

and splurging out 1000 words in 4 comments is full out autism.

now according to you if i were to hunt food and i own that spoil for the family but a different clan said thats not fair you killed it before i could then i have to give at least half of it to them because its only ''fair''

>>137591232
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlB_xNOAn1c
Related

>>137555774
THE ONLY GOOD COMMUNIST IS A DEAD COMMUNIST

>>137555774
I think fascism is great but I agree that communism is pure shit.

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>>137555774
MUH 100 GORRILION, NEVER FORGET

every single communist is a fucking whiny cuck. the day we start rounding communists up and castrating them is the day the world becomes a better place

>>137555774
>MUH 20 GORILLION

>>137555774
>>Joseph Stalin sentenced 20 million+ of his own civilians (protesters, defectors, and intellectuals) to gulags, labor, and ultimately death (Siberian Road of Bones)
[citation needed]
>>137558752
Ahmed please, our agriculture in first half of XX century was killed under monarchists rule (I WW, Civil War)

>>137591644
Fascism is good to revitalize a dead state, but beyond that it's no better. It's extremely authoritarian, just like communism.
But the memes are better, I'll give you that much.

>>137591822
ITS 666 GORILLION DONT YOU FORGET GOY

>>137591764
>lolbertarian
Shut up fag, your shitty system was tried and caused the US to collapse.

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>>137555774
>kolyma
>communism: where the libber meets the road.

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>>137592043
Disgusting.
The US is a republic, not even close to a libertarian society.
You might say "No true Scotsman", but that fallacy only applies if it's incorrect.

>>137592220
>he doesnt even know his own history
Typical Trump fag, google the articles of confederation.

>>137592463
>trump fag
You are a massive faggot.
The Articles of Confederation were replaced because they wanted a big central government.

>>137557027
Hey commie, 20 million is just what Stalin did.
Communist and Socialist homicides, genocides, and famines put together killed over 100 million, though.
https://reason.com/blog/2013/03/13/communism-killed-94m-in-20th-century
94 million plus at least 6 million that Socialist regimes killed.
Please kys, you genocide-denying faggot.

>>137592762
Yes, proof libertarianism was a failure, the central government had no power so it couldnt collect tax or control trade so it went bankrupt.
I suppose I should support it considering the fact it would severly weaken the USA.

>>137555774
Mao's communism is the teason why China is so shit now, the "cultural revolution" erased as much of traditional Chinese culture/history as it could. Communism means the destruction of everything that once was in favor of the "global revolution"

>>137593209
>China is so shit now
It's a world power and is overtaking your nation in power.

>>137555774
there weren't even 9 million jews alive in Europe you fucking pleb

>>137593084
>libertarianism
>central government
We're literally at odds. Especially the ancaps.
The AoC was an attempt to keep everything decentralized. However, that failed because the Congress wanted more power over each of the states, not because it wasn't working. It was working great for the individual, but not for the state.

You should support it, because free-market capitalism is the base human system of economics.

>>137590662
>If I homestead a property, it's then mine
And if you leave it idle, it stays like that. Under the nomadic lifestyle, it would become a vacuum again ripe for the taking. Also, are yoiu aware of the historical origins of private property?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure
Modern private property didn't arise organically, it was violently enforced by the state to privatize communes into private property. I'd argue most of the private proprty we see today didn't have origins in mere homesteading. What is your proposal for this? Do you want to track down the legitimacy of every owner by going into church records etc.?
>but with out these people, you'd have nothing.
Debatable. What good is a shareholder for a corporation besides investment? What work does he actually do?
>if you don't work, you die
The USSR did have a welfare system. I don't really get your argument there looking at your flag, in AnCapistan, isn't that the same? You don't work, you are fucked?
>The invisible hand of the market
The LTV actually tries to explain the invisible hand. The LTV isn't just Marxism, Smith thought about equilibrium prices as well, he just couldn't wrap his head arround it so he called it the invisible hand.
>Explain
He is enslaved by the law of value, which means: Produce this amount of stuff in the most short amount of time, the more you produce of this, the better are you, etc. This is commodity fetishism, because the worker doesn't even need any of the stuff he produces for himself. In feudalism, a farmer would produce what he needed, and use the surplus to barter for tools at the market. This is primitve commodity production, but in capitalist commodity production, labor becomes completely alienated from a person's needs.

>>137555774
nazi's were socialists. its commies fighting commies.

>>137593209
>>137593407
The reason why China is doing so well is because the instituted a private market right before they fell apart in the commie days.

>>137593407
at what cost? the average Chinese citizen lives in shit, works in shit, and the only group that benefits is the communist party. The party essentially erased the Chinese nation, the people are more serfs of the party than they are citizens of China. The Kuomintang was wrong to trust the communists.

>>137555926
if you don't let people to trade, they eventually kill each other for resources kiddo

>>137590662
>Why can it not be both?
Commodity production for Marx is production of goods for exchange. You produce to sell, not to consume.
>You can just take whatever you want
I don't think there was ever a serious push to drive down wages in a socialist country. As long as you don't have an underlying market (which was sadly the case in the late USSR, a result of the reforms of 1956) there is no need for that. Wages in the USSR were negotiated by the All-Union Council assembly which was integrated into central planning:
>In the U.S.S.R. the basic wage negotiations [for the whole of Soviet industry] are carried on between the All-Union Central Council of Trade Unions and the leading state economic authorities. . . The allocation of the whole nation's income is taken as the basis of the negotiations. In determining the total amount to be set as wages for the workers as a whole, the needs of the government for administration expenses, for national defense, expansion of industry, education, social insurance, and other necessary expenditures have also to be provided for. The draft plan thus arrived at is then sent out to the masses for discussion, after which it is reconsidered for necessary changes. This equitable, democratic and scientific adjustment of the wage question is quite impossible in any capitalist country.

>After the basic wage rates have thus been established, generally and for the respective industries, the individual unions, through their national and local committees, enter into negotiation with the representatives of the various industries and factories in order to work out detailed wage and other conditions for their specific situations. These national and local agreements, besides adjusting time and piece rates, the matters of vacations, overtime, etc., also deal with a host of other questions, many of which are quite beyond the scope of American and British trade union agreements.

>>137590662
(cont. the quote)

>The extent to which the workers' interests are conserved under these agreements may be indicated by the fact that the body having the last word in their interpretation and application is the All-Union Central Council of Trade Unions itself.
William Z. Foster, American Trade Unionism
>Keynesian economics, which is, to be hyperbolic, economic fascism
I unironically agree with you on that.
>you want a central state that does all the market planning, cost determination, and wage allocation?
That's part of it, but not sufficient. We want a worker's state, where workers control the means of production through the state. In regards to central planning, I recommend you "Towards a New Socialism" by Paul Cockshott (unfortunate name) that suggests advancement in central economic planning through comoputers and e-democracy.
http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/new_socialism.pdf

This response is a little bit all over the place because I have to go, but thanks for the discussion. I'll look up your answer late.

>>137593799
>Chinese nation
There were no such thing in Qin Empire.

>>137555774
Who cares i just want free shit and money

>>137593682
Free market capitalism leads to the International Jew establishing dominance over the people and leaves many people starving or in poverty or working for absolutely nothing but hey, at least you get iPhones and McDonalds

>>137555774
You speak about it like killing jews is something bad for humanity.

Stalin was great conservative leader, restored orthodoxy, outlawed abourtion, homosexualism and pedophilia, stopped lgbt propaganda by (((trotzkists))) and killed more juice than your lovely SheckelBurger

>>137561647
/pol/ is not one person and a very large chunk values absolute freedom of speech

Why is it "OK" that these fucking assholes turn to communist radicals in my fucking country and start ripping down our civil war statues.
They are throwing up communist salutes in a nation that has nothing to do with communists.

its time for war

>>137568439
communists dont create, they only destroy or force artists to make shit in their image.

>>137594332
>and start ripping down our civil war statues.
Vae victis.
>They are throwing up communist salutes in a nation that has nothing to do with communists.
USA companies especially "Ford" helped a lot with industrialisation.
Also, they are throwing them because your current society is dying.

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>>137555774

>>137566329
see this is why I can disagree with but still respect ancaps

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We still have this in Seattle, though, so STFU.

>>137593407
>overtaking your nation in power.
[citation needed]

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>>137593740
>>137593829
>>137593888
Sorry man, I have to get back to work. If I finish before the thread dies, I'll hurry a response out.
It was a good talk, thanks for it.