/pol/ communism general

We are winning comrade

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Hello gomrades! XDDDD Dis general is for disgussion of margsism-lebonnism, da ideology of rebolutionary socialism and gommunism.

Gommunism is da next stage of guckery following real society.

Wat exagtly is gommunism aggording to gommies:

>Gommunism is a stage of guckery in which the produgtive infrustrugture runs away from gommie country, and no goods are produced and beeple starve. XDDDD
>Gommunism in full form is obressive, statist society dat follows maxim "gib gib gib!" :DDDD
>To achieve gommunism we must replace broduction with murderous obressive rulers liek me, fug working glass beeple. XDDDD Struggle while I liquidate you all lol. When capitalists run away we win and I kill you all. Eventually the functions of state cease and state becomes murderous and indistinguishable from other gommies. Da state withers away liek da people.
https://www.gommies.gom/fug/
https://www.gommies.gom/starve/

GL uses philosphy of gib and starve, see here:
https://www.gommies.gom/ohfugme/

It is recommend you kill yourself so you can avoid starving.

Resources:
https://www.gommies.gom/ohshid/
https://www.gommies.gom/1984/
https://www.gommies.gom/guck/
https://www.gommies.gom/probaganda/
https://www.gommies.gom/XDDDD/
https://www.gommies.gom/wheresfood/
https://www.gommies.gom/benis/

Da sdages of gommunism.

>Sdage one
Bourgers aren't allowed to vode :DDD but otherwise da system is digtadorshib of gommies. Everything is stole by digtadors and digtadors rule all.

>Sdade two
Withering
All beeple who aren't digtador glass starve. XDDD Once glass disabears and we steal everything more beeple wither away. Bolice begome unnecessary as beeple are dead lol :DDDDD Central blanning begomes unnecessary begause sgarcity caused starving. Money is all ours.

>Sdage three
Gommunism.
No beeple. No food. My money. Much benis.

>Sdage four
Nod real gommunism. Move on to nexd goundry :DDDDDDD

Kill yourselves

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go get hit by a car you useless spic faggot

>>137399540
No u

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>>137399043

The United States will be ours, and then the world.

>another thread with no discussion on economics

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>>137399837
Well start one then

>>137399540
Gulag for you neoliberal swine

>>137399837
I'm sorry, Austrian Schools feels>reals isn't taken seriously by anyone.

What is wrong with the LTV.

Non arguments:

>If I dig a hole in my backyard and then fill it in I used labor but made no value! Commies BTFO!

Marx clarified (unlike adam smith) that only socially nessary labor (labor used to produce a commodity with use value) creates value. This is also the case if you spend 1000 years making a bed.

>Nature can create value as well. If an apple falls from a tree then value is created without labor

Marx also noted nature could create value.

>if labor determines price why is coca cola cheaper than bottled water?

Labor doesn't determine price. It determines value (not exchange value or use value) and correlates with the equilibrium price. Supply and demand determine price.

Machines cannot create value. If I make a machine that makes diamonds out of thin air then the value of a diamond falls below that of bricks now that they can be aquired with no work what so ever. Price might not fall because you can still manipulate supply and demand but value certainly does.

Some definitions.

Use value = How useful an object is.
Exchange value = Market value of a commidity. Different from use value. You can sell a beanie baby for 200$ but it is almost completely useless.
Value = the amount of congealed labor withing a commodity.


Some evidence of the LTV
http://users.wfu.edu/cottrell/eea97.pdf

Is this the commie jerk circle?

Bremindger thagt Gerbandy losd da war :DD

Dizguss gommunism, or lebdisd bolitigs here. Agd remeber, alwags done id dobn whilbsd in da publig eye! :DDD

Resoursegs for newbiegs :D

Margs for beginners:DD
>hddps://ia800204.us.argibe.org/1/idems/MargsForBeginners-English/margs_for_beginners.bdf

The Aggumuladion of Gabidal by Rosa Lugsemburgd:DDD
>hddps://www.margsists.org/argibe/lugsemburg/1913/aggumuladion-gabidal/indegs.hdm

Guotations from Mao Dse Dung:DDDD
>hddps://www.margsists.org/reference/archive/mao/worgs/red-book/ch01.hdm

The Gonquest of Bread, Gropodgin:D
>hddp://dwardmac.pidzer.edu/Anargist_Argibes/gropodgin/gonguest/ch1.hdml

The Sdade and Reboludion, Lenid:DDD
>hddps://www.margists.org/eboogs/lenid/sdade-and-reboludion.bdf

>>137399476
Kekd

>>137401042
No, its the communism general

Given that communists are historically notorious for their lack of respect for property rights and self ownership and have been responsible for the greatest mass murders in recent human history, we can deduce that they do not apply rights such as self ownership to others or themselves. Furthermore this means that communists can not be considered moral agents one can not be considered a moral agent. If one does not have an ability to make a moral judgement. Since these moral relativists reject the notion of morality altogether we know they are incapable of acting in a moral fashion. In order for rights to exist between two or more beings there must exist some level of reciprocation of rights. Such is the minimum requirement for one to be considered a moral being. Communists are incapable of reciprocating rights as they do not believe such things exist. We can thus conclude that communists; being incapable of showing the characteristics of humanity, are therefore, for all intents and purposes, not human, and as such should be treated as dangerous primates and put down.

Comrades we are winning, and it's all because of you.

Our shitposting is more effective than theirs, our discussions are deeper and more intelligent than theirs and our memes are superior, it's because of your efforts comrades, keep up the good work.

>>137401809
>all these words just to say you want to kill commies

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>>137400593
>Marx clarified (unlike adam smith) that only socially nessary labor (labor used to produce a commodity with use value) creates value. This is also the case if you spend 1000 years making a bed.
So be it. If I spend hours digging holes in my backyard with the most efficient methods, at the most efficient socially necessary manner, it would still be worthless if no consumer values it.

Seems like the labor theory of value misunderstands value at a fundamental level, and you are trying to prove it through a backwards analysis of the market; that is, just because products in a market need to be solve for a price higher than its costs, and more expensive products tend to be more costly, it by no means proves that value comes from cost. What defines whether a good is worth its costs is the pure arbitration of the consumer, that is what comes first in the process of arranging a market, the value and the costs are first defined by the consumer. You only get the measurement of the value and costs of labor after the consumer made his choice. You are trying to prove an Adam Smith theory that was already rejected 100 years ago.

Was your theory true, then it could be utilized in free enterprises to generate more profit, and the fact is, it is not. The marginal and subjective theory of value is used instead. Your theory of value was never made with the purpose to understand what value really is, but rather, to validate your political pursuits; that why it completely useless to any functional enterprise.

>>137401916
>not even attempting to so much as hint at anything being incorrect

Really makes u think.

>>137401990
>Expecting a serious conversation with people he just called primates that he wants to kill
I think you aren't being ironic, which is sad on so many levels

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>>137402060
>we want everyone to own the means of production.
That would be property rights. You want the property to be yours.

Worker owning property is not what communism is. You would have to be an idiot to think that communism is about you being allowed to plunder your workplace and you and your buddies to control the production of an entire commodity by yourselves. Society wouldn't function based on pure altruism, a coalition of workers monopolizing resources wouldn't just distribute free shit to 99% of the population which are not them. They would try to reduce their work and the amount of stuff they give, while trying to get more from others, because that would be their best interest.

Capitalism exists because people follow their own best interests. Were Stirner not moronized by marxian economics, it would be obvious to him. Such a "communist" system wouldn't be really communism, it would just be capitalism still, only difference is that there was some conflict and the owners of capital changed through the pillaging that occurred.

That's why the Orwellian type of communism is true communism. It is true abolition of property. When there's an absolutist state controlling everything, then there's truly no private property.

>>137401922
LTV doesn't explain market prices. It explains equilibrium prices. You are attacking a strawman.

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>>137402773
Brazil is a failed socialist shithole. You didn't even debunk any of his arguments. I promptly suggest you get hit by a car and fuck off back to leftypol.

>>137402975
Someone butthurt? Lmfao

>>137402975
>Brazil
>socialist

>>137401809
>being so mad about some rich fucks who never worked for their fortunes getting expropriated despite not even owning private property yourself

>>137402485
In socialism there is no commodity production. Mutualism isn't socialism.

>>137403145
Every country in the world is socialist according to /pol/

>>137403145
Yes?

The socialist party has been in control there for decades. There are so many socialist policies in place like Venezuela. Latin America is the most socialist region on Earth. Only Chile is really capitalist.

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>>137403300
According to you, Norway must be full communism by now considering they have less of a private sector than Venezuela

>>137403526
No because Norway's economy is one of the freest on Earth while Brazil and Venezuela are one of the lowest.

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Why can't leftists agree on anything?

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>capitalism is not infallible, its destinied to fail
>if everything had worked out perfectly, the Soviet Union wouldnt have collapsed and would be real communism, its the inevitable future
>no communism not the collapsing you proles
>hey Im making a serious argument here stop shitposting

>>137403300
if you're talking about partido trabalhador they haven't been in power "for decades", they had the executive position from 2002-2014, and in any case a socialist party being in power doesn't make the economic system of the country socialist, especially since many "socialist" parties are infected with social democracy and even outright neoliberalism

>>137403681
>over 30% public sector employment
>tax revenue as a percentage of GDP is 43.6%, eighth highest in the world
what the fuck do you people even mean by economic freedom I don't understand cause the gubment does lots off stuff in Norway and that's usually what people point out as being the opposite of "economic freedom"

>>137404053
quit saying the Soviet Union "collapsed", it was undemocratically dissolved

>>137403894
The left is a broad spectrum, of course there are disagreements, same as on the right

>>137403894
We can all agree on reactionaries being tossed into gulags.

>>137403681
Well, according to statistics and regulations, Venezuela has a more free economy than Norway. So you are either lying, talking out of ass, or have definition of economic freedom that is vastly different from most free market apologists.

>>137403894
Because we actually have convictions and are opinionated about our beliefs. Sure we might be sectarian sometimes but I don't see how not being a hivemind is an insult.

>>137404287
Brazil is very economically unfree and government interfence along with piss-poor private property rights and lack of free trade. The "socialism of the 21st century" is why it is in its current mess. You're an idiot if you think Brazil is an example of free market capitalism.

http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

Norway ranks as one of the highest, Brazil as one of the lowest. Your shitty system fails again. LA is riddled with many failed socialist shitholes along with Africa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doOhmn0s3F0

Communism is cancer.

>>137402920
First of all, the labor theory of value, is a theory of value. Not a theory of price equilibrium. Your theory of value has to actually explain value in its full functions, not just market equilibrium through a backwards descriptive analysis. You invented a strawman just so you could claim to be strawmanned. Market price equilibrium is where supply meets demand. Are you claiming that marx was just rewriting the theory of supply and demand now?

Second of all, this claim that the labor theory of value is in fact a theory of market equilibrium was already debunked by people like Carl Manger. Inputs are heterogeneous. There's no "socially necessary" rule when each input is analysed. In different goldmines, the socially necessary cost for each ounce of gold is completely different, yet, the price of gold is the same. There's no such thing as a socially necessary time to produce a good which will affect its value.

Here's an example: Imagine some deity of god from another dimension decided to prohibit sausages from being made by any worker who is not a professional surgeon, and they had to be done manually. What would happen? Would we pay thousands of bucks for each pack of sausage? No, what would actually happen, is that we would switch to an alternative, and never eat sausages at all. The social costs of making that sausage would have no impact on its value whatsoever, even in the "market equilibrium" price.

>>137404629
>implying a country having low "economic freedom" means that it isn't capitalist
>implying that the Heritage ranking of economic freedom isn't garbage that uses non-economic factors and economic factors unrelated to "economic freedom" to rank countries
the only socialist country in Latin America is Cuba and it has one of the highest standards of living in the region despite being terrorized by the most powerful nation on earth for half a century

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>quite simple! all we need for communism to work out are utopian quasi omniscient and omnipotent supercomputers ruling over every aspect of life and utopian automation making absolutely everything and itself abundant
>hey take this serious

>>137404629
>heritage foundation
Post a source that isn't a conservative think tank. Besides I never recall myself or any other communist advocating for social democracy. The only socialist country in Latin America is Cuba. But even then you argument is kinda shit, because Bolivia does rather well with the same policies.

>watch videos of Venezuelans suffering
Kek what the fuck do you commie fags have to o say about that

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>>137398877

>>137405533
even if Venezuela was socialist instead of just being a capitalist social democracy I don't see why the current crisis would be a condemnation of socialism as a whole, I mean millions of people starve to death under capitalism every year yet that doesn't seem to dissuade supporters of it

>>137405013
>cuba is the only socialist country

Nah, so is Venezuela and Brazil retard. Government nationalizations, poor property rights, protectionist and no free trade policies, etc. All hall marks of a socialist economy. Those countries confiscated private property from wealthy people and companies for "DA PEOPLE."

Chile has the highest HDI and living standards. It's free market capitalist. Pound sand commie fuck.

what if the world was communist

>>137405704
And tens of millions more have starved under socialism

I'm not here to argue, just see what you delusional larpers have cooked up. You're not much better then fagbook posters

>>137404832
>First of all, the labor theory of value is a theory of value
The other anon defined what Marx meant by value. What is your definition? Are you claiming value equals the market price?
>Market price equilibrium is where supply meets demand
No. It's when supply and demand cancel each other out. It's a hypothetical scenario that is seldom reached in reality. The LTV wasn't supposed to explain market prices, it was supposed to explain the underlying motions of a capitalist economy, which are real, but aren't observed. As an example it's when 10 people want to eat exactly one can of stew every day, and the local store sells exactly 10 cans of stew every without overproduction of shortage. That's when supply and demand cancel each other out and it has yet to be explained why the can of stew costs what it costs.
>In different goldmines, the socially necessary cost for each ounce of gold is completely different
The socially necessary labor time for an ounce of gold would be the average between these two.
>Imagine some deity of god from another dimension decided to prohibit sausages
What you are talking about is a monopoly. Of course thay messes with the market price (which the LTV doesn't explain anyway).

>>137405745
Both of their economies are characterized by private ownership over the means of production, wage labor, capital accumulation, and commodity production, that is capitalism, hell, Brazil has a higher rate of private sector employment than the United States

>>137405934
more people have starved to death under capitalism in the past 17 years than have in socialism's entire history

>>137406104
Got a source for that?

>>137406104
http://dailysignal.com/2016/09/07/socialism-of-the-21st-century-collapses-in-brazil-heres-why-it-failed/

Ton of socialist policies. By your logic America is more socialist than Brazil. Fuck off commiecuck.

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>let me tell you about the struggles of the working class
>yes im a NEET living in my mums basement and never worked before in my life
>hey Im making a serious argument here

>>137406459
Also most of brazils and venezuelas largest comoanies are state owned.

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>>137405745
Socialism is when collective public ownership over the means of production is established and production for exchange is abolished and production for use is implemented. This is obviously very different from mere governmental redistribution systems which are usually known as social democracies. Also, I don't know if you have mental problems, but Veneuzuela hasn't even nationalized half the economy as it was pointed out a million times before. You can't just make up definitions and call everything you like capitalist and everything you dislike socialist, kid.

>>137405934
More people starved under capitalism within the last 10 years than under socialism, even if you assume those ridiculous invented numbers from the "Black Book of Communism" to be correct. It is very interesting to see that the last famine China and Russia had occurred under socialism, and then they never had a famine again while before they were a reoccurring thing every few decades. Really makes one think, huh?

>>137406243
the figures for deaths by starvation tend to be around 25k a day, over 9 million a year, meaning that the amount of people who have starved to death in the 21st century would be somewhere around 150 million, and considering that the vast majority of countries on earth are capitalist and the total population of all non-capitalist countries would be much less than 150 million the vast majority of these deaths necessarily occur in capitalist countries

https://factcheckinginjusticefacts.wordpress.com/2012/01/16/asmaa-al-hameli/

>>137406459
>ton of socialist policies
What does that mean? The gubment doing stuff != socialism, if the economy is characterized by private property, wage labor, capital accumulation, and commodity production, it is capitalism

>>137406459
The author is same guy that does this Heritage Foundation shit. Anyway, I don't really think I want to engage with somebody who unironically thinks Brazil is socialist. I think anybody who says that has already ousted himself as a illiterate retard.

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Failed ideology general. Always collapses or goes back to capitalism in the end.

>>137405704
Many African countries are collapsed ex-marxist shitholes. Somalia, Ethiopia, Angola, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, etc.

>>137407306
>Many African countries are collapsed ex-marxist shitholes
>ex-marxist shitholes
>ex

>>137407081
>>137407365
What do you think about the fact that Communism is Jewish?

>>137407466
I don't care and in any case Engels wasn't Jewish

>>137407306
Funny how you leave out Burkina Faso with Thomas Sankara who, unlike the other populist countries you mentioned, was an actual Marxist who eventually got killed by mercenaries backed by the French as his policies were actually improving shit. Ideological selective reading at its best.

To claim that socialism is at fault for Africa's misery is quite a fantastic claim. Two billion dollars get invested into Africa ever year, and over three billion get extracted out of Africa every year by foreign investors. How the fuck is that even closely related to socialism?

>>137401809
>killing is okay because of wrongthink

>>137407466
I don't give a shit since barely any communist ever actually identified as an adherent of Judaism. Marx himself wrote a book about the Jewish question and called Lasalle a Jewish nigger.

Communism requires people to act like people will never act.
This is true of all communism.
Stalinism or northern Scandinavian socialist democracy is the best it will ever be.
These are worse than a propertarian or right leaning paternalist government.

>tfw fascists are impotently trying to be edgy in order to rile you up but you grew out of that stage years ago since you're older than 15

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>>137401809
>m-muh property rights

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>>137407980
>Communism requires people to act like people will never act
>muh benevolent corporate oligarchy tho

>>137407597
>I don't care
>>137407964
>I don't give a shit
So you have no problem with your ideology being of and for the Jews?

Clearly you haven't been on /pol/ long...

>and in any case Engels wasn't Jewish
But Marx, Lenin, Trotsky and 80%+ of the first soviet government was Jewish.

>>137407964
>a shit since barely any communist ever actually identified as an adherent of Judaism.
But Jews are a race...

>Marx himself wrote a book about the Jewish question and called Lasalle a Jewish nigger.
But Communism is inherently Jewish. If you want to see a real-world ideology that reflects the beliefs of the Jews, you follow communism.

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>>137406501
fighting the good fight, anon

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How does it feel to know we're winning?
Are you rustled?
Are you crying?

But no really. How does it feel to see the long plan staged by communists coming apart after decades of careful manipulation and hard work.
To snatch defeat from the jaws of victory takes a very special kind of incompetence.

>>137407365
Yep, collapsed shitholes. Siad Barre comes to mind for example in Somalia.

>>137407767
Oh I had no idea about Burkina Faso. Add another one to that list.

Want a decent African county? Botswana. Freest economy in the continent, highest living standards. You are blaming malnutrition on capitalism in Africa when many of those countries are collapsrd socialist shitholes. Datgs from starvation in Africa now are less than they were 40 years ago, the height of this shitty Marxist craze.

For example Somalia was objectively worse under its marxist government than it is now under fucking anarchy: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0147596707000741

Your ideology is so fucking shit and has never worked.

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>>137404629
>Heritage.org

>>137406703
>Make shit up
>Use Russia and China as an example
Fail lel

>>137406710
>Using total starvation numbers
>pull out of my ass that they all occur in capitalist countries
You're argument has no basis in reality friendo

>>137408357
deaths*

>>137408384
>you're wrong because i want you to be dot txt

wew

>>137408320
afaik Lenin didn't even know he had Jewish ancestry and the "Jewish Bolshevism" nonsense is bullshit

>>137408384
yeah I'm sure all of those people are starving in Cuba and the DPRK which have a combined population of like 40 million

>>137408343
>How does it feel to know we're winning?
Holy shit the delusion

>>137408320
>but Jews are a race
So? Does your fucking haplogroup predetermines you being part of a hivemind? Do you even realize what you are actually saying?
>communism is inherently Jewish
>an ideology that wants to abolish money is inherently advantageous to a group that bases its economic success on usury
Yeah you gotta explain why

>>137408343
You guys are using ISIS tactics and drive cars into civilians you absolute anti-social morons

>>137407365
Apparently a government that claims to be communist while following virtually no Marxist-Leninist policies is still socialist, as is a civil-war-torn state where one of the factions is communist.

>>137406059
How does the labor theory of value supposedly explains the underlying motions of a capitalist economy if you cannot in fact utilized this same theory in productive means in a capitalist economy? This is like a flat earther claiming his has insights on how celestial bodies move.

Cambodia makes shirts, correct? The United States also makes some shirts, correct? In Cambodia, due to the low intelligence and entrepreneurship of the population, each shirt costs ten times more socially necessary labor then in the US. So, that means, of course, that if we close the Cambodian economy and isolate it, their shirts would have more value to them then before. Right? Value would increase precisely because now, on average, it is more difficult to produce something. Right?

>As an example it's when 10 people want to eat exactly one can of stew every day, and the local store sells exactly 10 cans of stew every without overproduction of shortage. That's when supply and demand cancel each other out and it has yet to be explained why the can of stew costs what it costs.
That's hilariously. You are literally too ignorant to even be discussing anything about economics.

You are comparable to a flat earther. You make grandiose claims of an immense insight which would be historical for anyone who can apply said knowledge, yet, you sit on an obscure corner of the internet, probably in your moms house, making things up to defend it, as opposed to getting a nobel prize and being known in history. Could it be because your theories don't actually apply to the real world?

>>137408485
They're wrong because there arguments make no sense, the first nigger said that reported deaths from socialism is a lie which is holohoax level conspitard shit.

Then this other nigger cannot comprehend that if the majority of the world is capitalist, capitalism is the blame for starvation. Since we're just assuming.and not using facts, Ill say all those starvations occurred in non capitalist countries.

>>137408930
>Ill say all those starvations occurred in non capitalist countries
you do realize this is literally impossible, right?

>>137408357
>add another one to that list
Burkina Faso was better off under socialism you moron. Point me to an African shithole that is marxist today or fuck off.
>socialism has never worked
Yeah I'm sure lifting a feudal peasent state up to a modern superpower with the second highest average living standard in the world that brought humanity into space within 30 years despite having to fight a genocidal war constitutes as "not working". Cry more.

>>137408659
So if those are the only 2 socialist places then they're really bad examples

When are you going to prove communism is a good thing?

>>137408659
>afaik Lenin didn't even know he had Jewish ancestry
Well the thing about Jews is that they have nation wrecking in their DNA.

>and the "Jewish Bolshevism" nonsense is bullshit
Nope.

>>137408760
>So? Does your fucking haplogroup predetermines you being part of a hivemind?
With Jews it does. Again, nation wrecking is in their DNA.

>Do you even realize what you are actually saying?
Jews are inherently anti-White.

>Yeah you gotta explain why
Because Communism is about having the jews control the goyim.

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>>137408743

A few years ago that crowd would never have formed and nobody dared utter anything about protecting themselves from the foreign hordes you've been importing to try and dismantle our cultures.

Now they're out on the streets.

Your strategy has ultimately led to our resurgence.
Just as the capitalist creates his own enemies, so too does the commie.
Don't worry, we'll kill porky since porky is inevitably jewish.

>>137408849

Civilians? There were no civilians. Only commies.
Besides it seems they attacked the car first. Guess they ran out of bins to tip over.

>>137409155
Obviously. Let's say the majority. Blow my mind kid

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>>137398877
hello gomrade :DDDD

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>>137398877

Ha ha ha, Communism on Pol.

With freak shows like this on your side (pic related), how can you lose? Keep sending more failed Art Students.

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>>137409504
>Now they're out on the streets.
You got ran out of town and next time it will be worse for you idiots

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>>137409264
>was better off under socialism

Link a study right now moron. Not libcom shit. I just gave you one for Somalia.

>muh ussr success

The USSR was so fucking backwards and poor compared to the rest of the capitalist west. Living standards lagged decades behind the west. It collapsed spectacularly after being in economic stagnation for decades. China got hundreds of millions out of poverty when Deng Xiaoping switched the economy to a capitalist one.

Africa is riddled with failed ex-marxist countries. I just gave you multiple examples. Deaths from starvation and disease declines every year. Botswana is the best country in the region, has the freest econony and is capitalist as fuck.

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>>137409687
You got run over like bitches and one of you died. The police pushed the right-wing out, not antifa retards.

Go be roadkill elsewhere retarded leftypol faggot.

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>>137409687

Yes. Please by all means.
The more violent you get at the behest of your jewish masters the more people flock to our cause.
The more you oppress us the more our numbers swell.

We feed on your natural inclination to oppression and stagnancy.

The more subhumans you push into our homes the more the people come to hate you.
Keep it up, you're doing our job for us

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>>137409943
Not an argument. Your 'movement' had little support before this rally and almost none now, outside of internet nazis.

You bussed in loads of these people from all round the country and were still outnumbered by local protesters. The people don't want you

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>>137409264
Burkina Faso? Really? Fucking really? What's next, the glorious socialist society of Chiapas?

Oh no, but wait, communist ideologues leading entire countries was not true communism. Only these obscure African countries and south american rebellions you know nothing about were actual true communism.

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>>137408922
Holy shit dude you don't even have a Wikipedia tier understanding of polticial economy. Answer me this question, do you equate value with market price? Because in your strawmen arguments you actually do. Why don't you just say it?
Do you deny the existence of equilibrium prices, as in throw hundreds of great economists from Smith to Harvey under the bus? Are they all "flat earthers"? Go and read pic related, like, actually read it and not get your information from Stefan Molyneux videos.

>>137400593
so in a communist country, the only way to value things is through hard work and suffering.
Got it, thriving is not important to the communist.

>>137409355
Cuba is a fantastic example

>>137409388
out of the 25 members of the 1917 central committee only like 3 had Jewish ancestry, Jewish Bolshevist conspiracy theories can largely be debunked with extremely minimal research, they are often blatantly wrong

>>137409512
even that would be impossible unless we were to assume that Cuba and the DPRK had by far the highest birth rates on the planet (and really, Cuba does not have problems with food security any more, so it's highly unlikely that there are many starvation deaths there)

>>137409783
saying that the USSR, a nation that was still feudal in the 20th century was not as prosperous as capitalist nations that had been industrialized since the 19th century is silly, in terms of GDP per capita the USSR was the second fastest growing country on earth from 1928-1970 and managed to transform a famine stricken feudal society into a world superpower putting people in space with an obesity problem in a few decades

>>137410168
Good thing it isn't a popularity contest my roadkill friend.

>>137409388
>With Jews it does. Again, nation wrecking is in their DNA
You are insane. Are you unironically believe this shit? How old are you?

>>137409504
>there were no civilians, only KUFFAR
t. Islamist

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>>137410168

You don't think the gommies were bussed in?
If anything our ability to bring people from all over is better since instead of relying on billionaire bankers to finance it, our people do it themselves on their own resources.

You guys can't even organise the most simple of protests without someone like Soros throwing money for transport and supplies.

>>137410402
How not? How do you expect to get anywhere without support from the people?

Also reminder that the dailystormer is being taken down. This rally killed you guys

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>>137410363
Ah yes, the same USSR that was proven to manipulate economic growth statistics? Top kek leftypol cunt.

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>>137410522

You do realise that the Dailystormer is an alt-kike operation run by the police?
It's loss is an advantage to us.

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>>137398877
>>137399565
Communists don't even need to get hit by a car, they'll die of starvation.

Hitting them with cars works tho

>>137410522
Do you think the people support communism?

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>>137410633
>It's loss is an advantage to us.
Get used to experiencing loss, ya blew it
>>137410671
Socialism, yes.

>>137410250
>Answer me this question, do you equate value with market price?
No. I don't. And I didn't do that in any of my posts.
> Because in your strawmen arguments you actually do
Nope. I actually don't. That's why you didn't even link to the part where I did it, because I didn't.
>Do you deny the existence of equilibrium prices
No I don't. I understand supply and demand perfectly. We were talking about value, not price, do you not know the difference between value and price? KEK

Can you answer my question?
If in the Cambodian economy they have to utilize ten times more socially necessary labor time to produce a shirt, then in the rest of the world, then, it follows, that isolating the Cambodian economy would increase the value of its commodities. Correct? Value increases as the socially necessary labor time to produce wealth increases. Or will you throw your entire theory under the bus?

>throw hundreds of great economists from Smith to Harvey under the bus?
Yeah, how can modern chemists throw so many great men who believed that living beings and non living compounds had different matter? Do they just throw great scientists under the bus? Or maybe it could be that the goal of study is to improve your perception of reality, not to suck the balls of a 100yo man who was wrong about some things. Credit where credit is due but giving credit is not the goal of studying.

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>>137410849

You still don't understand what's happening do you?
You gommies sold your souls to the globalists long ago.

Who do you think finances your kind these days?
The USSR fell long ago.
Your activities and support are paid for by capitalists and bankers.
Your movement has become a hollow imitation of the communists. You are no more than simple gommies.
You exist only to advance the profits and interests of the capitalists.

Meanwhile we've reemerged as an inevitable counter to the capitalists and their perverse mercantile aspirations.
And we're only getting stronger.

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>>137410557
the statistics that show the Soviet Union was the second fastest growing economy in term of GDP per capita from 1928-1970 come from Angus Maddison, not official Soviet Statistics

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>>137409783
http://africa-facts.org/facts-about-thomas-sankara-in-burkina-faso/
>It collapsed spectacularly after being in economic stagnation for decades
Look up what stagnation actually means. The USSR had a steadily growing economy which collapsed once they returned to capitalism. But you actually already admitted that socialism did make a superpower out of a feudal shithole so you already lost this argument in this regard.
>Africa is riddled with failed ex-marxist countries
Africa is riddled with failed capitalist as well. Besides that your list was intentionally disingenuous as many of these countries weren't Marxist at all. Also, you ignored my comment about imperialism. Are you pretending that doesn't exist as well?

>>137411330
>Your activities and support are paid for by capitalists and bankers
George Soros literally funded Neo-Nazis in Ukraine lol

>>137411330
>And we're only getting stronger.
This fucking delusion

Explain in what way you are possibly getting stronger

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/charlottesville-virginia-unite-the-right-jason-kessler-tackled-podium/

>>137411335
And where does Angus Maddison get the statistics? From what the soviet officials officially report idiot. It isn't an independent statistics. Khanin is.

>>137411405
>africa facts

Not a study. Into the trash.

If you want a study of ex-ussr countries after the collapse here you go: https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/shleifer/files/normal_countries_draft_sept_12_annotated.pdf

Being homeless was illegal in the USSR and you could go to prison for it. This is why the homelessness percent was reported as "0%."

Commie government stats are not reliable sorry.

>africa is riddled with failed capitalist countries

Such as? Capitalism only began being embraced in Africa 20 years ago few exceptions being of course Zimbabwe (when it was rhodesia, or botswana) Was Somalia, Angola, Mozambique, or Zimbabwe not M-L states? Zimbabwe is garbage under Mugabe, Rhodesia was way better.

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>>137411536

Yeah mostly because he needed some idiots who would fight the Russians and overthrow the Ukrainian government.
And said neo-nazis wound up not liking the new government much anyways until their leadership got replaced.

Because Russia is not onboard with the globalist agenda.
They're not on board with your agenda.

>>137411552

You really don't get it do you?
Just a few years ago it was grounds for immediate arrest to even utter these sort of things.
Fear kept the populace in line and kept them from voicing anything that remotely resembled their interests.

Now they're speaking openly. Every day more and more people come out to support nationalist causes.
Trump despite being a total fucking cuckold got in on a strong nationalist message.
Even the means of public subversion your masters have relied on for decades the old media are failing and now so widely regarded as lugenpresse that nobody trusts them!

Now the public realise they can talk about this. People aren't afraid of you anymore.
But your masters aren't changing their gameplan, not realising this plan is what's feeding us.

>>137411405
How do you calculate GDP in an economy which is 70% inside a government? Look at american prices and pretend every additional unit of your commodities have the same value?

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>>137410655

>>137412305
>Just a few years ago it was grounds for immediate arrest to even utter these sort of things.
No it wasn't you moron, not in America where the rally happened

>>137411211
>No. I don't. And I didn't do that in any of my posts
Well you didn't define value at all and your arguments went into that direction so I'm asking you how you define value. I quote you:
>What defines whether a good is worth its costs is the pure arbitration of the consumer, that is what comes first in the process of arranging a market, the value and the costs are first defined by the consumer.
= trying to equate value with market price OR strawmanning the LTV
>You are trying to prove an Adam Smith theory that was already rejected 100 years ago
= attacking the concept of equilibrium prices at a fundamental level since you claim value is only created after the consumer made his choice
>I understand supply and demand perfectly
Doubt it, you already confused supply meeting demand with the cancelation of supply and demand.
>answer my retarded question
Yes, if Cambodia was on another planet and if they kept producing shirts the way they do now it would be more expensive than a shirt in the USA which has a more automated process. What's your fucking problem?
>Credit where credit is due but giving credit is not the goal of studying
The predictions the LTV makes are falsifieable. Yet nobody ever proved its predictions wrong. They keep trying to disprove the LTV on a purely theoretical level, often misinterpreting it in the process, instead of working with empirical evidence. Many economists, such as the author of the book I posted, use the LTV and empirically compare it with the general economic tendencies of capitalism.

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>>137412443

That's the hilarity of it all.
You gommies are so used to being on the side of the establishment you've never seen what was going on around you.
They kept you fat and happy with trash TV and soothing bullshit from politicians.

Freedom of speech has never existed in the USA

>>137412648
You claimed it was grounds for immediate arrest. That is completely untrue and neo-nazi groups have existed in America for ages

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>>137412795

Think of it as being like the communist control act.
In theory being a commie is grounds for immediate arrest in the USA. But the law is only ever invoked when one misbehaves and goes against the interests of the ruling class
You gommies are good goys and don't do this. So you get to derp about committing multiple felonies every few minutes.

We're forced into the shadows because we're not good goys. In the past fear has kept us from being too public for fear of arrest and inevitable execution.
So long as we stayed in the cracks and weren't too public, we were allowed to go about our business.

Now we're on the rise and quite suddenly.
At this stage the blunt tools used to keep us in check before won't work.

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>>137413281
>Now we're on the rise and quite suddenly.
You keep saying this but it is untrue. Outside of /pol/ and a few far right websites there is no support for your cause, especially now that the 'alt right' has blood on its hands. Get off the internet for a while

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>>137413560

And yet Trump was elected.
Britain is leaving the EU.
The EU is fragmenting.
Mass opposition to migrants is only increasing.

And you say we're not winning?
Stop watching CNN for two minutes.

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>>137398877
Hello gomrades! X_DDddDD Dis general is for disgussion of margsism-lebonnism, da ideology of ebin revolutionary socialism and gommunism.

Gommunism is da next stage of guckery following real society.

Wat exagtly is gommunism according to gommies:

>Gommunism is a stage of guckery in which the produgtive infrustrugture runs away from gommie country, and no goods are produced and beeple starve. X_-DDDD
>Gommunism in full form is obressive, statist society dat follows maxim "gib gib gib!" :-DDDDd
>To achieve gommunism we must replace broduction with murderous obressive rulers liek me, fug working glass beeple. XDDDD Struggle while I liquidate you all FUG. When capitalists run away we win and I gill you all. Eventually the fungtions of state stob and state becomes murderous and indistinguishable from other gommies. Da state withers away liek da people.
https://www.gommies.gom/fug/
https://www.gommies.gom/starve/

GL uses philosphy of gib and starve, see here:
https://www.gommies.gom/ohfugme/

It is recommend you kill yourself so you can avoid starving.

Resources:
https://www.gommies.gom/ohshid/
https://www.gommies.gom/1984/
https://www.gommies.gom/guck/
https://www.gommies.gom/probaganda/
https://www.gommies.gom/XDDDD/
https://www.gommies.gom/hiwherearethefood/
https://www.gommies.gom/benis/
https://www.islamiggommunism.gom/

Da sdages of gommunism.

>Sdage one
Bourgers aren't allowed to vode :-DDD but otherwise da system is digtadorshib of gommies. Everything is stole by digtadors and digtadors rule all.

>Sdade two
Withering
All beeple who aren't digtador glass starve. XDDD Once glass disabears and we steal everything more beeple wither away. Bolice begome unnecessary as beeple are dead lol :DDDDD Central blanning begomes unnecessary begause sgarcity caused starving. (BENIS :_DD)

>Sdage three
Gommunism.
No beeple. No food. My money. Much benis.

>Sdage 4
Nod real gommunism. Nexzt gountry. problems werent. :-DDdd

>>137413829
>And yet Trump was elected.
And has some of the worst approval ratings of any president
>Britain is leaving the EU.
And crashing
>The EU is fragmenting.
Support for the EU is almost at an all time high among EU countries after brexit

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>>137398877
Okay, help me out here cause I'm a little confused. If I own a small business that hires no one, then I am not a capitalist. But the second that I hire someone to say, sweep the floors or clean the dishes, then I am a capitalist exploiter.

If I am a worker in a factory, then I am a proletariat that is being exploited. However, if I use some of my wages to buy stocks in that factory, then I am both a capitalist exploiting the workers AND a proletariat being exploited by the capitalists.

If the communist society comes about, then I can own a house with hammers, saws, lathes, 3D printers, and so on, since those are personal property and thus can be owned by me. But if my neighbor wants to use some of my tools to build something, I either have to let him do it for free or turn him down entirely, since demanding compensation for him using my tools would be exploitation and would make me a capitalist exploiter.

>>137412590
>Yes, if Cambodia was on another planet and if they kept producing shirts the way they do now it would be more EXPENSIVE than a shirt in the USA which has a more automated process.
That was not what I asked buddy. Do you not know the difference between value and price? Did you not accuse me of conflating those two in that very post?

So, a shirt would be more valuable the more difficult it is to make it? The easier an economy becomes on people, the less valuable are the goods produced? Do you not realize how problematic this definition of value is? Where the more people suffer the more value exists? Have you considered the possibility that you are wrong ,and that you are not as smart as you think you are?

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>>137412590
>the more people have to suffer the more value a commodity has
>my theory of value cannot be utilized to create value
>isolating an underdeveloped economy would increase the value of its commodities, and decrease the value of commodities in developed economies
Or maybe you are wrong?

>>137412213
>hurrdurr not a study
You asked me how Burkina Faso was better off under Sankara. This is an unscientific, loaded question and the link mentions several information about equality, economy, humans rights, etc. which you can look into if you bother.
>homelessness in the USSR
That is incredibly hard to tell, we know that everybody was guaranteed a living place and there were no empty apartments at all, we can further resort to anecdotal evidence. Here is one source I found:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=0MIIUai1XC4C&pg=PA46&lpg=PA46&dq=Homelessness+in+the+USSR&source=bl&ots=l_05rsXFmX&sig=iMIDUh9-DdpjZ1MtG07iMjp2X2k&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwifo8iGxv_MAhUGw4MKHYEPC8gQ6AEIOTAF#v=onepage&q=Homelessness%20in%20the%20USSR&f=false
"Tens of thousands" would mean 0,03%. Modern USA has arround 0,3% homeless people, in comparison.

Concerning Africa, some governments identified as Marxist-Leninist but I don't think many actually implemented Marxist-Leninist policies. Most of them also grew out of a military coup, not a traditional Leninist vanguard party. As far as I know, Ethiopia under Haile Mariam Mengistu achieved the most progressive state of socialist construction. From my knowledge these countries merely redistributed parcels of land but didn't bother to actually implement Marxist-Leninist policies. You should be aware that many national leaders liberation movements called itself Marxist-Leninist to receive aid from the Soviet Bloc.

>>137414579
How do you calculate GDP in a country where 70% of the economy is government spending?

How come China didn't utilize those magic propagandist USSR economic practices to grow and become even bigger than the US, which what USSR claimed it could do? Did China, Cuba, North Korea, never really bothered learning the practices of the USSR?

Why did the USSR collapse in protests and revolutions for independence when they allegedly had one of the greatest economies in the world?

>>137414579
No. I asked for a study, idiot. Not some obscure dipshit wrbsite.

Homelessness was literally illegal in the USSR. You could go to a gulag for it. The official government reported 0% homelessness, any official stats from the soviet government should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

>it wasn't.real m-l!
>seizure of private property and wealth
>nationalization of companies
>no free trade or economic freedom

Sounds pretty socialist to me.

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What do we think about the private prison system in America? Can capitalists defend this?

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>>137414063

Trumps election proved one thing. You can't trust polls. If we'd believed the polls then Trump would have gotten 10% of the vote and no states.
Instead Hilary only managed to scrape a voter majority courtesy of rampant voter fraud. But still lost the election.

Britain is leaving the EU and insofar nothing has gone horribly wrong. It's economy continues to grow albeit slower and none of the doomsday scenarios predicted have come to pass. Project fear was ultimately project bullshit.

And the EU is seriously fragmented. You should pay attention to what's going on there.
The eastern european nations are openly opposing the EU commission and central european nations. Poland and Hungary have stated they would rather leave the EU than take in muslim migrants.
Everyone is pissed off with Germany for inviting the entire world to migrate to the EU.
The Germans are pissed off with the French because the French consider good military relations with the UK more important than EU military integration.
The southern EU nations are forming a bloc in opposition to the central EU nations as they're sick of German imposed austerity budgets.
The eastern EU nations are forming their own bloc because their only real ally in the EU (the UK) is leaving.
And once the UK leaves the EU it will be their single largest export market meaning a severe economic hit if they don't figure out some kind of trade deal the bongs will accept.

The EU on its own is falling apart.
Let alone the political class in the USA.

We're winning

>>137412305
>neoliberal globalism is the same thing as communist internationalism

>>137414203
>Do you not know the difference between value and price?
In a hypothetical scenario like that value (as in the equilibrium price) would be reflected in the market price.
>So, a shirt would be more valuable the more difficult it is to make it?
Generally, yes.
>The easier an economy becomes on people, the less valuable are the goods produced?
Yes.
>Where the more people suffer the more value exists?
I don't know where I equated labor with suffering but yes, Marxists believe all value in society stems from labor.

>>137414484
>isolating an underdeveloped economy would increase the value of its commodities
You realize that countries like Cambodia and Bangladesh exporting almost all of their shirts they make, right? They almost have zero use value for the Cambodian people. You realize that the market price difference of a shit made in USA and made in Cambodia doesn't disprove the LTV, right? If you were approaching this issue with the LTV, you'd have to pretend that the Cambodian sweatshop workers are part of the national economy of the country in which they export.

What is wrong with the LTV.

Non arguments:

>If I dig a hole in my backyard and then fill it in I used labor but made no value! Commies BTFO!

Marx clarified (unlike adam smith) that only socially nessary labor (labor used to produce a commodity with use value) creates value. This is also the case if you spend 1000 years making a bed.

>Nature can create value as well. If an apple falls from a tree then value is created without labor

Marx also noted nature could create value.

>if labor determines price why is coca cola cheaper than bottled water?

Labor doesn't determine price. It determines value (not exchange value or use value) and correlates with the equilibrium price. Supply and demand determine price.

Machines cannot create value. If I make a machine that makes diamonds out of thin air then the value of a diamond falls below that of bricks now that they can be aquired with no work what so ever. Price might not fall because you can still manipulate supply and demand but value certainly does.

Some definitions.

Use value = How useful an object is.

Exchange value = Market value of a commidity. Different from use value. You can sell a beanie baby for 200$ but it is almost completely useless.

Value = the amount of congealed labor withing a commodity.

Some evidence of the LTV

http://users.wfu.edu/cottrell/eea97.pdf

>>137415250
More efficient than Soviet Gulags.

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>>137415855
Gulags ended in the early 50's, for profit prisons continue to exist today

>>137401922
>So be it. If I spend hours digging holes in my backyard with the most efficient methods, at the most efficient socially necessary manner, it would still be worthless if no consumer values it.

Marx agrees with you. The hole you dug in your yard has no use value. It has no value at all. Only labor society needs creates value.

>>137414991
Are you claiming that Cuba and the DPRK are not operating at the absolute maximum of their possible capabilities?
>Why did the USSR collapse in protests and revolutions
Never happened. The USSR was dismantled from above. If Andropovs reforms went all the way through and Gorbachev got purged who knows.

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>>137415837
>Machines cannot create value
>Electricity is worthless
>Mechanically generated energy is worthless
>A monitor that displays information is worthless

Communists are fucking retards.

>>137416130
>Gorbachev
Traitor and working with the west/CIA

>>137410350
The LTV is not a theory of how workers should be paid it is an analysis of how capitalism works beleived by marxian an classical Economists.

>>137415964
Proving the point that state run prisons are economically unviable.

>>137416304
Why should prisons be expected to make profit?

>>137416408
Who says they can't?

>>137415736
>>So, a shirt would be more valuable the more difficult it is to make it?
>Generally, yes.
>>The easier an economy becomes on people, the less valuable are the goods produced?
>Yes.
>>Where the more people suffer the more value exists?
>I don't know where I equated labor with suffering but yes
It's like your brain can't get a hint. The knowledge never drops and makes you realize you were wrong.

>You realize that countries like Cambodia and Bangladesh exporting almost all of their shirts they make, right? They almost have zero use value for the Cambodian people.
If you think Cambodia would be better off isolated, they I can gladly say that this is verifiable, and it is falsifiable, and economists already realize that that's not true. If you take their best methods of creating wealth, they do not have more value in their hands, they have less. They are poorer and more miserable, and it will take longer for them to grow capital, machines, and education. Whenever people point out how Cuba is poor, some fucker like you always cries about how Cuba got embargoed by a single country which is why Cuba is so poor, justa single country boycotting you is enough for a communist to cry in pain, but in a different conversation it's about how free trade is exploiting you.

Anyway, there's no reason to continue this discussion with someone so insane that will neglect real world data, and claim that the more people suffer the more value a commodity has. If you actually cared about knowing the truth, you would just study; your goal is to subvert ignorant people to your nihilistic and valueless desires. Your problem is not lack of books, but an insufficient personal life.

>>137415123
>No. I asked for a study, idiot
The question you asked was so generalized that it could never be answered in a one issue study, dipshit. The website makes several claims about Sankaras reign in Burkina Faso. Pick any of them and refute them or fuck off.
>any official stats from the soviet government should be taken with a huge grain of salt
That's why I didn't quote le ebul gommie stats but an anti-Soviet source.
>Sounds pretty socialist to me
That's literally just the very first part of socialist construction, that comes right after the revolution, if you call it a day after that it is not really what Marxism-Leninism advocates at all.

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>>137398877
oh look it's this gay thread

>>137416223
If you make a mashine that generates a commodity instantly without any labor what so ever then the commodity is worthless. Air is very very useful but takes no labor to create so you wouldn't buy it from anyone.

>>137416465
Don't you think prisons existing to make profit is morally suspect? What do you think it means when the US has 5% of the world population and 25% of all prisoners, along with private prisons? Are you that naive?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

>>137416134
Maduro's problem is that he isn't killing enough people, these violent opposition thugs who are torching food and burning Chavistas alive need to be shot along with bourgeois oligarchs

>>137416223
>use value is price
>posting a picture of a neoliberal
Stop posting

>>137416553
If you're mining or building a tunnel or diving you damn well want a fucking machine that can make air.

And I can bet you the entire world's (((value))) that people who are down there working their ass off are going to create value out of the air that machine generates.

But trust a Commie not to appreciate that not so subtle point.

>>137416876
If there is scarcity then yes it is valueble. Less scarcity less valueble. Mashines reduce scarcity.

>>137416861
>if i call everything value then you must be wrong
Enough of your Jewish tricks.

Commies, do you like this definition of exploitation?

Exploitation is the process of obtaining property in non-productive and non-contractual way.

>>137417017
The premise of that post was that machines cannot create value. Reducing scarcity is creating value therefore the premise is incorrect.

>>137417064
No.
Exploitation is the source of profit. It occurs when a capitalist gives the workers a commodity (money) worse less that the commodity they produced in their job.

>>137417208
No. If creating something becomes easier the thing becomes less valueble. If diamonds could be made out of peanut butter diamonds would be nearly worthless.

>>137416729
Yes comrade, obviously. If only he killed more people, then an economy without the measurement of value would work, and the Venezuelan government monopoly over milk and other diaries would be just as efficient as free market enterprises.

Monopolies are more efficient than competition and innovation when the government has them.

>>137417231
Workers have produced 100 pounds of cheese, but it takes a year for cheese to mature. Shall workers wait a year before getting paid?

What is the communists itt opinion on american college liberals and mainstream socialists in general?

>>137417451
Couldn't they just get paid the money from last years cheese?

>>137416517
>it could never be answered in onw study

Yes it could. I gave you a study on how somalia fared after socialism and ex-ussr countries 25 years after the collapse.

>I quoted an anti-soviet source

Angus Harrison gotnits states from the TSsu. I gave you an independent estimate by Khanin. Get bent nigger.

>wasn't REAL socialism

Every fucking time.

>>137417546
It's gay

>>137417451
Is pretending to be retarded a legit way of arguing?

>ancap flag
oh, sorry. My mom told me not to mock the mentally retarded

>>137417558
Where the last years cheese comes from?

I'm a nazi and I approve this thread.

I like its stalinistic anti-jewish energy.

>>137416487
>It's like your brain can't get a hint. The knowledge never drops and makes you realize you were wrong
Not an argument.
>If you think Cambodia would be better off isolated
Where the fuck did I say that? Literally, where? YOU were the one coming up with this thought experiment, not me.
>hurrdurr Cuba
How is your capitalist utopia Haiti going? They don't get boycotted at all. What's wrong?
>but in a different conversation it's about how free trade is exploiting you
Again, where the fuck did I say that? Free trade isn't always "exploitive" but it can be when the economic preconditions are both very different.
>inb4 sweatshops are helping people
>real world data
I've posted a book that has hundreds of pages of data if you bother reading anything that isn't the Mises Institute. Getting triggered and blame me for nihilistic subversion isn't sufficient, I'm sorry the world doesn't give a shit about your personal feelings, Ronaldo.

>>137417546
Mostly faggot liberals that play identity politics

>>137417673
>Every fucking time.

>communist: Communism is this
>you: NO IT ISN'T
>communist: But..
>you: IDEAS DON'T MATTER ON RED FLAGS AND NAMES DO!!! REEEEE

>>137417347
>air is less valuable in mines, tunnels and diving because a machine made it possible to breathe in those conditions

Yes yes air is just an opiate of the masses a tool of the bourgeois to oppress the proletariat. All you need is Mao's little red book and you can move mountains.

By jove you'd have been the perfect Red Guard.

What does everyone think of refugees? I think we should have much, much more stricter asylum policies and support asylum for refugees who aren't total religious fanatics.

>>137417880
If air is all around you it becomes less valueble than if you have no air and need it urgently.

>>137417860
>Also workers.
Who waited a year and now want to get paid 100% of their product. So what shall we do with them? inb4 Gulag

>>137417882
Its complicated. I'm not gonna lie and say I don't have sympathy for some of them, however religious fanatics can die for all I care.

>>137418013
And yet here you are saying a machine cannot create value. We have established that a machine can create value.

Your premise is therefore incorrect.

>>137418177
The mashine made the air less valueble because now there is more of it and it requires no labor to get. If I built a mashine that could compress carbon into diamonds then diamonds would be worth almost nothing because now they are much easier to find. We've been over this before.

I like this thread, it remind me why communism has failed in Europe.

>>137418347
Socialism and socialist policies live on however

>>137418113
Oh I see what you are saying. No workers don't technically get paid 100% of their labor some needs to be taken off the top and used to repair mashines and stuff like that including paying the cheese guys for a year while they wait for the cheese to age.

>>137418457
>socialism is just le welfare meme
take off the flag

>>137416487
Cuba has one of the highest standards of living in Latin America despite being terrorized by the US for half a century (and if you don't think that the US's embargo policies, such as not allowing any ships docking in Cuban ports to dock in US ports for six months haven't hurt the country, you are silly)

hell, Cuba even has a higher life expectancy than the US

>>137418563
I should have just said socialist policies, but yeah its true

>>137417673
Stop shifting the goalposts. We were talking about homelessness, not about growth rates. Regarding that, even Khanin admits that the capitalist NEP ran into a dead end and that Stalins collectivization was very successful.

>>137418510
>paying the cheese guys for a year while they wait for the cheese to age
In this case, the workers who waited a year are CAPITALISTS.

>>137398877
Is Maoism same as Stalinism or did they have some philosophical differences?

>>137418911
Maoism focused mainly on the rural farmers/ peasants, a lot more than Stalin

>>137417231
But the worker consent in that aspect.

How he can be exploitated in a consent way?

>>137418325
>the machine made air less valuable
No I take it back you're right. Its true the machine would be creating negative value if they let you use it.

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>>137418641
>Cuba is better than the US
>this motherfucker

>>137418905
They don't own the means of production so not really.

>>137419328
>the serfs consented to the aristocrats, how could there be oppression?

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>>137419346
"Cultural Marxism" is not a thing. Marx didn't come up with it.

>>137418641
>Cuba has one of the highest standards of living in Latin America
That was before communism started to wreck their economy. Before Castro.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNixpGx4AV8
Very nice of you to point that out.
>steal property of thousands of people
>they decide to embargo you and become your enemies instead of trading with you
OH NOES, This is the fault of capitalism!

>Cuba even has a higher life expectancy than the US
No it doesn't. It's blatant made up nonsense. Cuba has problems with cholera and other health problems that only show up in underdeveloped shitholes. Their government cooks the books.
Look on the bright side comrade, now that everything requires more socially necessary labor in Cuba, their commodities are incredibly more valuable!

>>137419328
When its work or starve to death its not much of a choice. Sure some people can find alternatives like living in the woods but this isn't substainable fro everyone.

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>Cuba
>Highest living standards
w e w
>>137419472

>>137419347
They own the reserve of cheese to pay future workers. This is exactly what capitalists do.

>>137419335
You don't seem to undestand my point with the air analogy. What about the simpler diamond analogy?

>>137419346
US is a lot better than Cuba, but for the minority that does not have access to universal healthcare, it is not an exaggeration to say they could have a better life in Cuba

>>137418911
Maoism is supposed to be less bureaucratic with institutions like the mass line, to get feedback from the people. Maoism is also critical of dialectical materialism, and Mao kind of has his own dialectic of contradictions. It also comes up with a concept for guerilla warfare, the protracted people's war. But in the end, Maoism is supposed to be an expansion pack of Marxism-Leninism (Stalinism), Marxism-Leninism-Maoism if you will, a description non-revisionist Marxist-Leninists used. Most Marxist-Leninists believe the USSR to be revisionist after 1956.

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>>137419542
according to World Bank statistics Cuba's life expectancy is higher than the US's

and no, they have one of the highest standards of living now, they have one of the highest HDIs in Latin America

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>>137419346
>Cuba
>not being better than the US

Daily dose of faggot Spaniard

>>137419555
If my body force me to get food or die, is my body opressing me?

>>137419635
In this specific situation some value would have to be gotten from other workers. At least in the early stage of socialism where money still exists. In the later phase each worker would be paid a voucher for each hour of work they do (if they work faster that average they get more vouchers per hour and slower than average less) which could be cashed in for a object that took a single hour to create.

>>137420132
No because in the case of capitalism what you need to live is being with held from you buy force. We have enough food to feed everyone.

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>this picture shines with communism

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>this

>>137419604
woah a random pile of trash this disproves all statistical data on the matter

>>137420426
>>137420518
>detroit.jpg

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>>137420426
>>137420518
This is the picture of natsoc

>>137420164
>(if they work faster that average they get more vouchers per hour
With this proviso you basically reinvent fiat money.

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>>137419928
The world bank doesn't gather this data you bumbling idiot, lol. They take data provided by the cuban government.

That's like saying North Korea doesn't have not a single 0.01% of illiterate people because UNESCO published the data provided by their government.

>they have one of the highest standards of living now, they have one of the highest HDIs in Latin America
They why did they have to shut down their doctor sharing program with Brasil due to desertion? Why are 25yo doctors fleeing away from their families the first chance they get to a country Cuban data claims to be worst?

Seems like commies live in an alternative reality.

>>137419935
https://panampost.com/julian-villabona/2016/08/10/colombia-to-deported-1350-cuban-refugees-with-more-still-stranded/

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>>137420518
>random pictures
what's your point?

>>137420518
I've been to the US, and I can legitimately tell you that many places in the US look like that except you also have to be worried to get shot, unlike Cuba. Many American students who can not afford medical school also study in Cuba because it has one of the best healthcare systems, while in America people can't even visit the dentist, and Cuba recently eliminated the mother-child transfer of aids.

>>137398877
Communism has failed each time it has been applied. The communist revolutionaries were the ones to die first from the communist regime because they were the only ones capable to realize that communism is shit and do something about it. They want you to be easily manipulated.

Fucking sheep. You deserve to be killed by the government you wish to raise.

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>>137420727
I prefer this one

>>137421003
>Cuba data is all fake!!!!!!!!
>USA data is all 100% reliable!!!!!!!!

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>>137420518
>>137420426
>>137419604
here's a pic of a pile of trash existing in canada, capitalism has failed canada.....

and remember how it's never worked?

>>137420164
>some value would have to be gotten from other workers
Right. And this is the surplus value that capitalists charge. If you were offered $1000 today or the same amount in the next year, you will most likely choose to get it today. this indicates that TIME MATTERS. If you want to get some good earlier you have to agree to some discount. This justifies the interest charged by a capitalist.

>>137421003
yeah man, any evidence that contradicts your worldview is just like, lying commie propaganda, just ignore hard statistical evidence in favor of feels

>>137421196
How is that neoliberalism working out for you, Christos?

Go be a retard somewhere else
sage

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>>137398877
And I thought you were finally gone

>>137421378
I remember how it always devolves into a dictatorship and everyone starves. But don't worry, goy, that wasn't real communism.

>>137421698
We are growing stronger. The world is waking up

>>137421259
Wait, when did I give you USA data? Oh wait, I never did. I pointed out how Cuba has to shut down international medical programs because their doctors literally start fleeing their country whenever they get the chance. As in, that's the reason Cuba itself claims to be closing the program.

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Communism is great for all the reasons stated on this Antifa banner.

>>137421698
>>137421722
>>137421824
>Not saging communist thread
Please don't be retarded
sage

>>137421813
Venezuela says otherwise.

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Have you guys seen this recent picture of litter in Switzerland? Wow, capitalism must have failed Switzerland so much. What a hellhole!

>>137422018
Wow, litter. This is just like the Holodomor.

>>137421947
Venezuela is a social democracy, if you're going to consider social democracies to be socialist don't just cherry pick Venezuela and ignore countries like Norway

>>137421947
Didn't some cringey Pinochet LARPers within the military get extremly cucked by the Maduro government recently?

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>>137422170
I would say the 1943 Bengal Famine is more like "Holodomor"

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>>137421813
You are not growing stronger and you never were. Communism is an emotional group. It's a distinct teenage mentality which stays stable. Without a political cabal behind the curtains cultivating and utilizing those groups, then communism literally doesn't exist. When the bolshevik cabals lost interest, the great USSR literally collapsed in a pen swing.

>>137399043
I almost want you to win and be raped to death in a gulag

you mean the largely homogeneous country that gets its protection from the US?

not to mention it being a social democracy too?

the communist utopia will never work without a dictatorship

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>>137422170
Holodomor didn't happen, but it should have.

>>137422499
people already get raped to death in establishments designed for penal labor in the liberal capitalist country of america all the time

>>137421320

Been on holiday to Cuba 2 times. Not like most tourists who visit Varadero, which looks just like any other tourist area in the world. But actually drove around the country with a private driver, which is cheap as fuck. The country is a fucking shithole. Kids who are walking on bare feet because their parents can't find them any shoes. I've had a grown man crying because i bought him milk (he asked me to) for his baby in a tourist shop he isn't allowed to go in, and even if he would be allowed in he couldn't afford it.

The country is a shithole. Infrastructure is crumbling apart. Their water pipes are breaking apart, because of this only 20% of the total water supply ends up at the user, the rest simply ends up in the soil. They are in the constant proces of building new reservoirs the keep up with the supply. Building reservoirs is cheaper and easier than replacing underground pipes.

While the country is a shithole i did notice most people appeared to seem happy. Guess they got used to it.

>>137422437
Yeah, it's not like the Bolsheviks had the majority in many Soviets 1917, with self-organized worker support, peasent liberation movements etc. Totally just a cabal!

Do you guys support Antifa?

>>137422962
and remember how the soviets fell apart and the capitalist americans remained a world superpower?

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>>137422962
>implying

>>137422746
Is that the new copypasta after you got tired of the one "my granddad got personally killed by Stalin and ate his flesh"? I mean I've been to Cuba as well and never experienced stuff like that.

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>>137421550
>utilize obviously bogus claim
>get examples of real world events that contradict your claim
>claim I'm ignoring evidence to maintain my worldview
Why aren't we seeing some massive immigration towards Cuba comrade? Why is it the other way around, with the Cuban government trying to keep their residents from fleeing by the gun barrel? Don't people around the world want a better living standard? Why aren't people moving from Brasil to Cuba by the bulks?

>>137423157
No not really I guess. I enjoy seeing nazis getting punched however

>>137423198
>muh feels
>implying hating fascists and christians is a bad thing

>>137423384
how do these "real world events" contradict the claim of cuba having a higher life expectancy than the united states?

>>137423466
Well then burn in hell commie scum, along with your autistic """leaders""".
SIEG HEIL 14/88

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How do we get rid of liberals, comrades?

>>137423623
>along with your autistic """leaders""".
I NEEEEDD MIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK

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>>137423623

i think communism has a lot of correct ideas, but it claims to have them all, and manipulates peoples emotion to create nation states based on ideals that aren't fully formed. leading to authoritarian societies were the ruling party doesn't even feel free. Truly if the ruling party in communistic societies doesn't feel free, something is deeply wrong with the system. Communism needs to stop being intellectually stunted by and us vs them mentality and incorporate personal liberty into its framework. Communism as marx envisioned it was a great success but it hasn't updated to modern times and western society with its ideals of liberty are stronger than ideals of collectivism.

>>137423531
>implying Russians were fascist
>implying it's okay for kikes to take over a country by force
>implying Christianity isn't one of the main reasons western countries are so successful today
When are you booking a flight to Venezuela so you can live in a Socialist Utopia faggot?

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>>137398877
Why are you here? Leftpol is not a thing OP. It can't be since the left is, by definition, politically correct. There is nothing politcally incorrect about being a communist.

I know you goobers desperately want to recapture your place as the counter-culture, but that will not happen as your is the dominant ideological cancer that has infected the entire west (and beyond).

Again, there is no such thing as leftypol. You are just a bunch of shills.

>>137398877

Let's be constructive for once, OP.

How do you respond to the fact communism has failed on a consistent basis everywhere it's been implimented?

>>137423783
I hate skinheads.

>>137423857
>but that will not happen as your is the dominant ideological cancer that has infected the entire west (and beyond)
>the most powerful nation on earth doesn't even have a viable left wing party and its politics are dominated by centrist neoliberals fighting center right neoliberals and center left soc dems are seen as "far left radicals"
i wish i lived in your fantasy world

>>137423620
>Cuba has greater life expectancy than even US!
>Cuba has cleaner water and better infant mortality than most south american countries!
>*Cuban men formed in medicine become illegal immigrants at a high rate as soon as they get the chance*
>well how does that prove anything?!

>>137424261
nothing you have said directly contradicts the idea that cuba has a higher life expectancy than the US, if you want to indulge in your non-arguments and feels over reals attitude that's fine but if i wanted to talk to someone who acted like that i would just converse with a child

>>137399476
Hello gromrade! Can you dell me abot margsism-lebonisme:DDD I want join barty of gobbunisd:DDD

>>137424562
>http://www.reuters.com/article/us-cuba-cholera-idUSBRE97L0YJ20130822
>Cuba fighting a disease that already has a vaccine
>which proliferates through water supply problems
>which is a sign of health problems, specially to pregnant women
>also Cuba in 2013:
>We take care of infants just as good as the united states!
Anyway, I don't expect to change your mind. I know how delusional and insane commies are, reality is redundant to you.

>>137425521
>delusional
>you're literally the one ignoring actual facts and statistics

>>137422370
>2.1 million dead from war, natural disaster, and capitalism
-or-
>2.2-12 million dead from murdering landowners for refusing to give up their land, then engineering the resulting famine to starve out political opponents and break an ethnicity
>which was communism

Yeah, Bengal wasn't as bad as Holodomor and Bengal can mitigate some of the blame off capitalism onto war and natural disasters.

>>137425959
>then engineering the resulting famine to starve out political opponents and break an ethnicity
is this what anti-communists actually believe? holy shit

>>137425521
your argument is literally just "Cuba's healthcare is worse than the US's in this one way, therefore the fact that Cuba's life expectancy is higher is wrong"

it's pathetic

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>>137399043
Communism is inevitable. Our job is done, we just have to sit back and watch its unfolding.

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>>137425959
The "Holodomor" is a lie.

Most of the leaders of the USSR after Stalin were Ukrainian.

Kruschev would have used it as part of his secret speech if it were a thing.

>>137426504
Nice wadchin, be batient, only zix hundred yeers, gomrade:DDD

>>137418886
I never said there wasn't economic growth retard, but commies manipulated the statistics to make it seem like it was much greater than it actually was.

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>>137426317
>>137425888
>"Cuban medicine is great because they focus a lot on prevention and public care!"
>Cuba can't even supply basic vaccines
>w-w-w-well, just because Cuba is not great this one way it doesn't mean they excel in others.... i-i-it's perfectly possible for an area with cholera epidemics to be better then some of the most developed countries on planet earth... You are just denying actual facts and statistics!

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>>137400387
>be commie
>come from tradition of bleeding hearts and unprincipled economics
>accuse austrian economists of prioritizing feels over reals

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>>137398877

>>137428644
bump

>>137428385
Exploitation of capital still exists under your system. Enough said on that.

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>>137400387
>marxian
>school of economics that disbanded to sociology and anthropology because they couldn't take economic debates
>tries to criticize school of economics that is still alive and well
I think you forgot you are not on plebbit pretending to be a neutral liberal. Your subversive fake critics don't work so well after you ousted yourself as a retarded commie.

Die commushits.

>>137429478
There's no such thing as economical exploitation when all exchange is voluntary.
>I deserve returns from investments I never made!
You don't.
There are liberal regulations that limit how much you can invest and the complexity of financial operations you can engage in; which you would have all the right to complain about; however, you don't deserve returns from investments you never made. The worker doesn't deserve free shit just for showing up for wage work.

>>137429873
The worker is entitled to the fruits of his labour and nothing more. Simply owning capital and not putting in any work but making millions is more akin to your "free shit" just for owning capital

>>137398877
If you deny white genocide as real you are a fool
If you accept white genocide you are a traitor
If you want white genocide you are the enemy

>>137430265
White people aren't disappearing just because other ethnicities exist.

>>137398877
The proletariat is a spook. Nigga why do you care about a couple of guys you go to work with more than your blood, ancestry and nation? You're all just cockholsters of the rootless bourgeois Jews who created your little movement in order to raze society and re-establish Feudalism where they are princes ruling over a mud-race. You're all so naive, laughing at your lives. Useful idiots. HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA

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>>137430250
>e worker is entitled to the fruits of his labour and nothing more.
Precisely. You are entitled the value of your labor, not all the investments and the return of the investments of the enterprise. If I invest my money, you don't deserve it just because you showed up for wage work.

I guess the 15yo kid who accepted a 2 hour per day job at the local old man grocery store deserves literally $50 000 in capital because he showed up to be the worker there. Oh, wait, that's fucking retarded.

>>137430897
In the long run that will be the case though.

White population decreasing isn't the biggest problem, the biggest problem is that we are being replaced and surrounded in our own countries.

Everything that contributes to white genocide is a crime. Everyone that contributes is a criminal.

>>137426504

and you're going to fucking DIE

>>137399043

You are really not, you guys are so fucking shit everything you dickheads have ever done ever, in the whole of history sinse that fucking faggot Marx created you has failed. Logical thought will win and you irrational illogical PRICKS are going to loose. I genuinely want you all to die, you are not human

>>137433979
Your time is over

>>137434232

Nope.. your time was over when it didn't happen for you after the first world war.... that and lol you are all a bunch of chicken neck bitches... get a job you fucking scrotum