Jesus vs Paul?

>>137291114
wait the Christian Bible is full of contradictions?!?

really makes your wheat chaffe

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>>137291114
Paul was more cropped hair with a goatee.

Jesus preached to the Jews, who rejected him. The Church then turned to the gentiles. It's best explained by the parable of Luke 14:

Luk 14:16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:

Luk 14:17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
Luk 14:18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.

Luk 14:19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.

Luk 14:20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

Luk 14:21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

Luk 14:22And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.

Luk 14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

Luk 14:24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

>>137291114
2 Peter 3:15-16
"Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction."

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>>137291114
get lost mudslime scum, stop taking the Holy Texts out of context!!!

Jesus preached to all people but gave Israel the first shot. They turned him down so the gentiles got their chance. Gentile converts were not expected to hold the same expectations as the people of Israel so much of the law didn't apply to them.

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>>137291114
So it all boiled down to Jew vs Jew Worshiper? Kek!

>>137291844
Thank you for your reply, but I also wanted to know why the message seemed to change so drastically between the mission of Jesus and that of Paul.

It seems that they placed emphasis on different things, for example, Jesus defending the law of Moses and emphasizing good works, whereas Paul waived mosaic law and emphasized faith above all.

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>>137291114
paul

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>>137291114
>how do you explain the apparent contradictions between the message of Jesus and the message of Paul?
By not being fucking retarded.

>Jesus fulfilled the law
Let's look at the rest of the passage, shall we?
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5
Look what Jesus is telling his listeners: he's telling them to not exchange an eye for an eye but to turn the other cheek. He's saying that not (only) the very act of committing adultery, but merely looking at another's spouse with lustful eyes is sin. Is Jesus contradicting Jesus in the exact same fucking Sermon? Of course not, that'd be retarded. Like you.

Now let's actually look at the Law Jesus is talking about.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+18:15
Intereting! Moses told his followers that a new prophet would arise who would overturn Deuteronomy and come with a New Law (a New Covenant, if you will)? I wonder if Jesus referred to this when claiming he was fulfilling the law rather than abolishing it...

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>>137293764
christians are supposed to keep the law

the law applies for all eternity

but merely you can do anything u want in the new testament and """get away with it""""

if you teach sinning and breaking even one commandment ur doing wrong

u will be called least in the kingdom

no contradiction

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also theres a thing called dispensationalism

matthew talks a lot to the jews living during the tribulation period

the sheeps and the goats judgment is not for christians

its for people on earth during that time of jacobs trouble

he says FLEE INTO THE WILDERNESS ALL YE IN JUDEA FOR THEN SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION OF THE LIKES THIS WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN

not talking to christians of course because we wont be here for that

It's only an apparent contradiction caused by unfamiliarity with the texts. Christ always to have the Gospel spread among the gentiles, but would wait until after he had been murdered by the betrayal of the Jews.

Matthew 21
33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet

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the gospel of john is for the gentiles

matthew is appealing to jews more

but theres no contradiction

just a more mainlined message and easy believism because faith is all you need


but jews wouldnt understand that because they kept the law all their life

so they need more to understand from that backround

becaue they know the law is still a good thing

At the end of Matthew's Gospel (after the Resurrection):

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

>>137294811
>but would wait until after he had been murdered by the betrayal of the Jews.
Luke was a gentile though. Christ probably did intend the greater spread of Christianity among gentiles to take place later, but he didn't exactly chase gentiles out of his initial following.

>>137291114
All the OT talks about Christ and Christianity vs Israel. First Christian knew it and the anti judaizers won. The word kills the spirit.

>>137293764
People have had difficulty with Paul since the time he lived. Some take Paul's "faith not works" too far, just as they did in his day.

When Paul says:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

He means " it is by faith that you have entered into salvation and not because of anything you may have done before".

The misinterpretation of that has led to the heresy of "once saved always saved", and also the notion that one can willfully sin and never be held accountable for it. It simply isn't true.

We say "we are dead to the law", meaning the law of epaphs of flour and sacrifices in the temple, washing of hands as ritual purity, etc. But those negatives, thou shall not kill, etc., and also the positives, do unto others....we are still bound by.

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>>137295363
The funny thing is that, when you get into it, the Catholic and mainline Protestant interpretations of this are barely different.

Catholocism believes in salvation through works and faith, because faith leads to good works.
Mainline Protestantism believes salvation through faith alone, and that faith merely expresses itself through works.

The nuance is incredibly subtle and pedantic, to the point where discussing it is barely worthwhile.

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we will keep the old testament laws forever and ever in heaven

Ezekiel 37:24
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.


>>137295363
it is once saved always saved bro

were not bound by the law

christians are supposed to keep the law for rewards and basically just to do the right thing

but u can be a serial killer and go to heaven

>>137291114
When Jesus died you didn't need to follow them. Jesus taught faith alone salvation(John 3:14-18/36) but that you should follow the commandments but he knows no one will.
Read yoir Bible you retard.

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>>137295722
ya p much what he said

you put it in a lot simpler words than i could lelelelelle

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he said "good sir what must i DO"

but jesus said keep the commandments

but then he walked away sad because it was impossible to do everything

it wasnt actually saying u can keep the commandments to enter into life

>>137295363
No
"saved through faith" well it looks like you don't have to do any works. "gift of God" you don't work for gifts you just accept them otherwise it isn't a gift. "not of works" well that's pretty clear you don't need to do works. "lest anyman should boast" just like the guys in
Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.(see John 6:38-40 for the Father's will)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
It looks like those people were boastimg and relying on their works "done many wonderful works" AND they had faith "in thy name". But Jesus still told them to fuck off.
Looks like relying on your works like orthodox and catholics do has you NOT enter Heaven

>>137296838
also
John 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Can someone answer; does water baptism count for jews but not for gentiles?

>>137295623

The difference isn't subtle at all and what you mention is hardly the only schism between the schisms. A rock is not a mountain even though a mountain is made of rock. A child would be able to tell you this.

>>137297952
>and what you mention is hardly the only schism between the schisms
I never said that, I merely said that in practice the Catholics and Mainline Protestants believe more or less the same in regards to the grace-works debate, and the debate is more about terminology than about actual, tangible results or doctrine.

>>137293217
That's not why christians do not need to follow the Law. The penalty for disobeying the Law was death, and Jesus sacrificed himself. Jesus brings a new law.

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>>137298527
its actually the same exact law

god never changes

law following has nothing to do with going to heaven though

>>137295022
That part was added centuries later

>>137297914

It only counts for gentiles (christians) the only jew who did baptism was john the baptist

>>137291114
Don't forget Matthew 23:1-3

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

But remember, Paul has as many pro-Law verses as those interpreted anti. He was never preaching against the Law. He only said it wasn't robotic adherence to the Law that saved anyone. Faith saves, but James reminds us that a saving faith requires works..and that is walking in obedience to the Law.

For those confused about Paul or who assume they know what he taught, see 2 Peter 3:15-17.
And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

What do we see in this passage?

1) In all Paul's letters he mentions that the patience of our Lord is salvation. Not "don't do the Law."
2) Even Peter says Paul is hard to understand. If you read Paul and think it's clear what he's saying, you are contradicting an Apostle who says otherwise.
3) People twist Paul to say what he does not say. Who are these people? The ignorant...the untaught. In what? The first part of the Bible...i.e. The Torah.
4) These people ignorant of the Law twist Paul to commit an error. Which error? The error of LAWless. Without the Law. Which Law? Definitely not concerned with Caesar's law. It's without God's Law because they in error have said it's abolished. To what end? Their DESTRUCTION.

Come back to the Torah. Messiah walked in Torah and he said to walk after him. He showed us the proper Way.

>>137298883
You need to read up on what a mikveh is. Baptism was not a new thing.

Jesus: Gnostic

Paul: Demiurge worshipper

>>137299025
Begone, ebionite heretic

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>>137299025
>saving faith requires works.

nope

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

god merely wants you to be a good obedient christian

doesnt mean you have to be

dead faith christians go str8 to heaven

>>137291114
It's talking about two different laws

>>137291114
Jesus is an SJW infiltrator, paul is a 'free' SJW. Jesus is the gay acceptance movement whereas paul is the gay pride movement.

>>137299124

But john the baptist washed sins with his baptism , mikveh has nothing to do with washing souls its just purification

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god didnt put away the feast days and festivals either

those are significant supernatural eternal holidays in heaven

theres going to be passover and rosh hashana and sabbath keeping and everything in the millenial kingdom

>>137291114
Jesus. Dead. Paul. Dead.

>>137300772
Jesus is live!
Pray! Faggot infidel!!!

>>137291114
I thought this was one of those Chad memes.
I was disappointed

If you reject Paul you are not fully under the Grace of God.

Jesus came down to fulfill the Jewish role of Messiah. Since He the Jews rejected Him, those quotes do not apply

A lot of people who reject Paul combine heresies like gnosticism, buddhism and hinduism, beliefs in UFOs and spirits, new age garbage with their own brand of "christianity" and wind up really delusional and suffering from psychological torment aka winding up out of God's Grace

>>137291114

There's a lot to it and I'm not sure if this is a serious post or a shitpost, but I'll go ahead and reply anyway.
>apparent contradictions
You are right in saying that there seem to be contradictions among things that Jesus says in the Gospels and things that Paul says in his letters.

However, there are some points we need to address before going any further
>All of Paul's letters predate the Gospels, and Paul himself never knew Jesus
Paul wrote all of his letters in the 50s CE, and the first Gospel, Mark, was not written until c. 70 CE. It is possible it was written earlier, but it is generally dated no earlier than 70 CE.
>All of the Gospels were written by different Christian groups with different goals
Through critically reading Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John, and comparing the texts, we can pick up certain themes that appear in one text that are more or less pronounced in the others, or totally absent from other texts. Because we have Mark--which is usually thought to be the earliest Gospel--we can see what pieces the authors of Matthew and Luke changed from Mark in writing their own texts. So, Mark, Matthew, and Luke share many similarities, but general key differences. There is not a single, clear picture of Jesus presented throughout the Bible, but a number of different depictions of Jesus depending upon the author(s) of the Gospel / Epistle / etc.

cont?

So then, is water baptism necessary for salvation?

>>137301335
Those aren't contradictions because the Jews rejected the choice of believing Jesus as their messiah. Read the whole New Testament carefully

Our tradition says Paul was (((ourguy))) and secretly a Pharisee agent, who wanted the early Nazarines to make a complete break with Judaism and preach to Goyim only, so that Judaism gets rid of the Nazarine cult and Jews aren't effected by it anymore.

t. Talmudic scholar

>>137301831
No it is not needed its just a ritual nothing supernatural will happen in 2017

>>137302055
Well, that escalated quickly...

>>137299505
Obedient to what? Just whatever sounds good to you each day? Or to the Father's eternal commandments? His righteous standards do not change. What you really worship is a god of your own imagination whose commandments are whatever you feel like obeying. The sin that you like you excuse and keep hold of telling yourself that God is fine with it. This is deception. What you are really saying is that the Creator of all things should be happy to have you at all.

Listen to the rebuke of the wise if you wish to not find yourself utterly horrified when judgment comes.

https://youtu.be/SGh3y8pYL6A

>>137301831
No

you only need faith
John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

>>137293764
>I also wanted to know why the message seemed to change so drastically between the mission of Jesus and that of Paul.

Because Jesus preached before his death and resurrection and Paul preached after.

The "all is accomplished" line in Matthew 5:18 is a reference to the resurrection.

>>137302233


>>137302589

Alright. It's just as someone seeking answers, people say you need, and people say you don't, both have strong arguments because the Bible has some verses that point at it and verses that point just at faith. Wonder if baptism includes that faith. Or that the people don't know whether they talk about baptism of the spirit or water baptism.

This, is the precise answer to OP's question:
>>137291844
Paul was a pagan hunter of Christians before his conversion. He did not know Jesus personally but knew His apostles including James the Just. James was the brother of Jesus and the first Archbishop of Christendom. Paul's activity proves historically that Jesus' Divine lordship was recognized from the very beginning including to members of Jesus own biological family. He quarrelled with the Apostles- over details of practice of the religion to non-Jewish converts. Paul established Christianity as a faith outside Judaic practices to apply universally to the pagan world and fufilled the parable of the Christ (also repeated in Matt 22) The only discrepancies are that prior to Paul, Christianity as it was was wholly Judaic and after his missions became available to all men. St Paul is the first apostles to the gentiles. Jesus entire preaching ministry was for Jews alone and was rejected. Within a generation, in 70AD the Jewish Temple was razed to it's foundations and Jews scattered, not returning to the Temple Mount until the 1940s. And the message of the Christ given to all of you also for your salvation, to accept or reject at your own will, and for the same reasons

>>137303268

To get saved you dont , but baptism is kinda tricky in paul's days the baptism was a ritual and you would receive the holy ghost after that , today i have not seen this holy ghost active anymore

>Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7And all the men were about twelve.

>>137303648
Paul wasn't pagan, he was a classical rabbinical Jew who hunted down hippie-Nazarenes for most of his adult life. And if you believe his extremely-sudden "conversion" I've got a nice bridge in Somalia to sell you. Paul was our agent and the greatest instrument of turning Christianity from a Jewish cult which posed danger to classical Judaism to a completely goyish conundrum contrived of both Greeko-Roman and Semitic elements, both completely and utterly taken out of context. What we got is our religion intact, and goyim becoming our subordinates by accepting our holy scriptures as veritas et virtus.

>>137302040
I'm not finished. The bigger point is that what appear to be contradictions--maybe they are, maybe they aren't--are totally expected based on the timeline of the writing and the different social and historical contexts for the authors.

>>137301335

In Mark, Jesus is presented as a Jewish apocalypticist and reformer. The context for Mark is the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70 CE and the coming destruction of the Jews by the Romans. The destruction doesn't actually occur in Mark, even though it is prophesied, and this is why lots of people believe Mark was written after the destruction of the temple (or perhaps by a very prescient writer). One way of reading Mark is a way of providing consolation to the Jews who have just had / will have their temple destroyed. As Dale Martin says in his podcasts, "Things are going to get a lot worse [for the Jews in Mark] before they get better."

Matthew, written after Mark, builds on Mark but stresses Jesus's Jewishness and Jewish roots. I don't think I'll go down a rabbit hole of what Matthew thinks about Gentiles. But Matthew in general is much more pro-Jewish law--Jesus is a reformer, but the law still applies.

Luke, like Matthew, builds on Mark, but adds its own twists, specifically, Jesus looking beyond the Jews for his message is a frequent theme.

John I won't talk about because it's really, really different.

So, if you have all these different Gospels written at a minimum 12 years after Paul's last letter of Romans, the question doesn't make sense. Of course there are going to be differences between these things. They were all written by different people with very different backgrounds.

With respect to Paul, the reason Paul depicts Jesus the way he does is because he clearly sees Jesus as extending Yahweh to the Gentiles, but in a way that is different than how the Jews relate to Yahweh.

Mark is more concerned with explaining why the Jews have suffered / will suffer under the Romans,

contd.

>>137305205
>What we got is our religion intact,

Yet non of you fucks uses the old testament sacrificial lamb , you jewed your self to hell because that was the only ritual to forgive sins

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>>137291114
So, is Christianity bullshit? What do I do to avoid the firey pit of eternal torture?

>>137291114
Don't read the Bible yourself. You most definitely cannot understand it and end up with heresy.
Listen what learned priests are speaking to you and behave as they tell. Salvation is only in living church, not digging up dead texts.

>>137305205
Which is why I am a norse pagan. Christianity is a repackaged Talmud.

>>137291114
Jews gonna Jews

>>137291114
Is Satan behind this thread?

To adress the image, starting with Matthew 19:17, read the context to which commandments Christ is referring to:
>17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
>18 “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony,
>19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”

Matthew 5:17-18 is obvious, the Law is not destroyed. Now lets' go to Paul, Ephesians 2:15 doesn't say that Jesus destroyed the Law, it says:
>by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations
Romans 10:4 says:
>Christ is the culmination of the law
not "end of the Law", and Romans 3:20 is obvious enough.

If you want to understand it more, it's best to read the whole book of Galatians.

>Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.

And read with a proper and open state of mind, not while thinking "let's see how wrong this is", but place the thought that Christ is God in your head and read the text with that thought.

>>137305790

Read the bible and you will discover that there is no eternal torture

>>137291114
same difference goy, just remember to go to church and love everyone who is also chr*stian alright?

>>137306349
>But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 AKJV
Sure sounds pretty miserable to me.

>>137291114
John 4:21
>"Woman," Jesus replied, "believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

You are a fucking idiot OP.

>>137306681

Yup but no eternal torture it would be like you never existed the atheist death.


>14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


you live or you die

>>137305384
Matthew is concerned mostly with adding Jewish authenticity to Jesus's story and making Jesus's teachings more specifically focused on the Jews (though the end of Matthew leaves this a bit ambiguous), while Luke is about Jesus looking to help Gentiles (not necessarily at the exclusion of Jews).

In some ways, the theme of Luke seems like it could be compatible with Paul's letters (which were, mind us all, at least 20 years prior to Luke), but I don't know the full extent of scholarship on the authors of Luke-Acts and what they knew about Paul.

TL;DR
>it's not really possible to answer your question because it requires making a lot of assumptions
>"There is no need for consistency" is a totally valid response because we can't know all the things the Gospel authors knew about Paul, and we can't know if Paul knew the Gospel authors.

>>137293764

Marketing reasons. Basically you can't sell a religion to the poor masses of the Roman Empire if you're going to require them to follow all the tedious Jew laws, and especially if you're going to require them to be good.

>>137295098
Then explain this >>137307265.

Jesus was always clear that He intended for the gospel to be spread around the world. Here's another one:

John 3:16
>For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Muslims need to stop with the Paul vs Jesus BS. It's clear they have no idea what they're talking about but just repeat what their Imams say to them ad nauseum.

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>>137302586
obedient to his commands

ur forgiven by grace no matter what and u cant lose ur salvation

now the question is do you want to live a life of sin or do the right thing

just because you can choose to do whatever u want doesnt mean you should/ youre supposed to / or that god wants you to

>>137307381
If death and the grave were cast into the lake of fire, how would anyone die though? I think it's clear that the lake of fire (eternal torment) is reserved for people who truly deserve it. We've seen some truly sick shit from people in this world who have caused pain, death and misery wherever they go. To let them just die and not experience the pain they dished onto others when they were alive defeats the purpose of justice.

>>137293216
So you're not gonna answer the OP's points?
WEW
>Quite the jew tactics there Jonathan

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>>137302586
John 6:37-40
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

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>>137291114
Pauldidst say the law was abokished, in that verse he said "ordinaces" are abolished, the word ordinance in Greek is just another way of saying written law, he then goes on to explain that the Torah is now written on our hearts.

Also Paul said in Romans I quote
>Do we abolish the law good for I'd we establish the law.

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>>137308918
>Do we abolish the law, good forbid we establish the law

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also god did not abolish unclean foods

unclean food are still unclean

Acts 10:28
And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

nothing in the law has perished

now u can choose to eat unclean foods but thats not the best idea ever

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>>137309237
>I am fully convinced that there is nothing that is unclean in of itself
Paul said that in either Romans or Corinthians, also Paul said explicitly eating the meat of idols is not forbidden, even though it is the most unclean kind of food you can possibly eat in the torah

>>137291114
>virgin jesus and chad paul

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>>137309660
talking about not causing stumbling blocks

if ur brother sees you eating sacrificed foods to idols he might be like WTF UR SATANIC AF

and it might cause his faith to be weakened and get confused because he thoughtt you were a man of god

context

Romans 14:13-17
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:

17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
_
it doesnt say unclean foods are no longer unclean

there are no contradiction , only a carnal minded man with no revelation of the word spoken would think such.

>>137310114
Idol neat is the most unkosher meat in Judaism there is literally nothing more toxic to a Jew, because Daniel did not take idols meat and everyone else did and they allgot sick untodeath. Paul also said nothing is unclean in of it self you are blatentlu disregarding Torah

>>137307920
Can't lose salvation?

2 Peter 2:20-22
vercomes a person, to that he is enslaved. For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Notice the present tense of "dies". Certainly not past tense.

Ezekiel 18:24
But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

Brother, you are in very grave error. There has been a grand delusion placed on people so that they think they are saved, but they are not. Repentance requires knowing what you are repenting of and turning from it.

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>>137310709

youre still supposed to avoid it ... but thats talking about when youre ministering to the gentiles who are eating these these things youre allowed to sit down and eat with them whatever theyre eating so u dont look bad. thats the only time you would eat something sacrificed to an idol


Acts 15:29
That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Acts 21:25
As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

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>>137311215
see >>137308268

those first 2 are talking about jews who reject jesus christ


the last one is just talking about being stoned to death under the old testament

people who have been stoned to death have probably been saved people who went to heaven

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>>137291114
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-jVXpFttuI&list=PLo5QtZ1bPyYbLdyw2AnVKX9tm-b2YJFhQ

Watch them all. Paul and Yeshua (Jesus) were on the same page entirely. Peter warned that there would be ignorant and unstable people who would twist Paul's words to lawlessness.

"Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."
- 2 Peter 3:14-17

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>>137311362
Paul devoted three entire letters, 1 Corithians,2 Corinthians, and romans to explain how
>nothing is unclean in of itself
He made it very clear that bacon can now be eatern as well as Popoe Peter who also made it clear in his vision in acts.
>you're supposed to avoid it
Actually no You can eat it as long as it dose not harm you, Pauls only reason for banning anything here is if it is not "edifying" Which is explained in detail across the whole letter of Romans you are justr blatently ignoring
>nothing is unclean in of itself
You're damned Achmed and going to hell

>>137291114
Simple. Jesus warned us there would be people like Saul/Paul. Saul is a serpent who rode on the coat tails of Jesus and pretended to be an "apostle" when he just wanted the glory for himself. He wrote half the new testament include the Book of Luke (or one of his students did).

Discard everything that Saul/Paul/Lucifer wrote.

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>>137291114
Paul is the most mistranslated apostle in the bible.

>[Debunking Churchianity/Catholicism]
https://christogenea.org/system/files/audio/ChrSat20110924-Misconception-Paul-Church.mp3

>[Race Mixing is the Unforgivable Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit]
Essay: https://christogenea.org/articles/scatterers-and-gatherers
Audio sermon: https://christogenea.org/system/files/audio/CHR20161104-FGCP-Finck-2016-10-30.mp3

>[Debunking Universalism]
https://christogenea.org/system/files/audio/ChrSat20120225-Universalism-Mark_Downey.mp3

>[Eight Witnesses Against Universalism]
https://christogenea.org/system/files/audio/ChrForumCall20110509.mp3

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>>137312248
god trying to spread the message to the gentiles and made it so that its not the main issue

he never made unclean foods clean

that vision doesnt mean what you think it means in context

Acts 10:19
While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

Acts 10:28
And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

>learns what it meant finally

>bacon can now be eaten

YOU CAN but its not a clean food you would be doing a disservice to yourself

god made these animals as bottom feeders

you wouldnt eat a rat would you

now why would you eat something god says is not food

>>137312248
>>137291114

Paul was talking about eating food in the market that had been sacrificed to idols, if you do not believe in idols. Paul never advocated eating something now defined as food in God's Law. That would violate Deut. 4:2 and make it sin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-jVXpFttuI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkbKCdPZ_8Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3J1uDExyH4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJZMmjzA3JY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFQxzJylkvM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se_uJmKf0EY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGs8de9k2MU

If you truly seek the truth about this matter, educate yourself.

>>137312697
>it is not a clean food it's always bad for you
Except the entire two cahpters Paul explained how eating these things never always result in illness but can be edifying in their own right, and also said in either Timothy or Titus
>all things are permissible to eat if eaten with thankfullness

>>137312697
>not call any man common or unclean

So I guess since "men" are clean, we can eat them.

It's about men, not food.

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>>137312915
exactly PERMISSABLE
not advisable

jesus christ didnt eat any unclean foods he observed the whole torah

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>>137300772
:^)

>>137298334

Your salvation is the tangable result in that discussion.

>>137307539
Thank you, based anon - a gentleman and a scholar.

AFAIK, Luke was supposed to be Paul's secretary, so it's no wonder that Luke's gospel is Pauline in spirit

>>137312915
People eat food. Pig is not food. Are you going to eat plastic and call it clean? Eating those things God said with His own mouth are not food, is sin.

"Man does not live on bread alone but by EVERY word from the mouth of God." - Jesus

>>137307539
Actually you can answer the question. But I am not sure you want to hear the answer...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-jVXpFttuI [Embed]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkbKCdPZ_8Q [Embed]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3J1uDExyH4 [Embed]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJZMmjzA3JY [Embed]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFQxzJylkvM [Embed]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se_uJmKf0EY [Embed]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGs8de9k2MU [Embed]

>>137307381
>>137308168
Similar concept of "second death" existed within ancient Greek theology and meant that your experience of such death will be eternal, rather than absolutely finite. Akin to being forever trapped in a permanently decaying body.

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>>137313032
jews thought gentiles were unclean lol

thats literally what it means

thats supposed to be the main point which the gentiles started to hear the gospel

the part of the chapter is called "The gentiles hear the gospel"

http://biblehub.com/kjv/acts/10.htm

so its quite important

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>>137313072
>Nothing is unclean in of itself
If that is the case then there are cases when it is edifying for the body to consume.
>>137313497
Youre just twice the achmed who cares what you think

>>137312915
Paul is not talking about eating "all things" - read the whole chapter and get some context - he is talking about eating food from a market where ALL meat's were sacrificed to idols. If you don't believe in the god they were sacrificed to, then if God made them clean, it's clean. Paul even says that the foods are sanctified in that chapter - sanctified by what? The Word - Specifically the LAW section of the Word.

>>137314058
Nice Ad Hominem. Do you have an actual argument based on actual Scripture?

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>>137314484
>he really didn't mean what he said by the letter
Idol meat is physically poisonous if you know anythign about how Pharisitical jews felt about Idols meat. It was just as dangerous to eat as anyting unkosher and they did not touch it. This is not "ceremonial" to people like Paul or Gamaliel or other strict Jews, to them it was a very real physical thread to their own health and a disgrace against GOd. Paul made it clear that these things can be circumvented if they account for what needs to be accounted for, ther are some people that it can build up. The same with bacon as long as you handle the material correctly then you can eat it. Some poeple can't eat it either way like previous acoholics or other things, the point is that
the bible says
>nothing is unclean in of itself
Which means you can eat bacon and the Catholic church always amde that clear

>>137314035
I should also point out, eating pig is not only unadvisable - it is sin.

"Everyone who sins is breaking God's law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God." - 1 John 3:4

That is the definition of sin - breaking God's law. Paul would not have known sin if it were not for the law.

>>137313497

but it also written, For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer” 1 Timothy 4:4

it the reason why christian tend to pray before eating

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>>137314058
is crack not unclean in of itself

smoking crack is only unclean if you think its unclean, after all its not what goes into the body but what comes out of a man right

wooooooo lets all start injectin drugs bro...

nah nothing has changed

im not condemning u , christians can eat whatever they want... im just saying unclean foods are still unclean

god didnt put away one jot or title from the OT

i believe in all the feast days and holidays as well ((everything))


https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/the-new-covenant-does-it-abolish-gods-law/does-romans-14-abolish-laws-on

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Get your jew worship off /pol/

>>137305205
He was of Jewish stock though his first language was Greek and he was versed in Stoic philosophy. Some scholarship indicates he was indoctrinated in Orphic mystery schools. As far as I am concerned he was pagan, his works often focused on converting non-Jews to Christianity, which is not a Judaic practice. I don't know much about the speed of conversion (as if you seem to want to argue a point I did not make) though most historians agree most of writings attributed to him are truly from him, so anyone can read for themselves how Jewish his religion was. You may speculate as you wish on what is subordinate though one could look at the status of Jews compared to those of the Christian faith in the last two millennia and make you own judgements there too. Classical (history)Judaism ended in 70AD ended at the hands of the Romans who later provided the basis of a stable empire from which Christianity is handed to us today. An empire that lasted until 1453. There were Jews there also (of course) though let's think of them as our guests. The Temple- the second Temple of Herod is gone forever and the modern Jewish state provided by Christian Europeans to our honored guests. Hard to see who is subordinate there. For you

>>137314953
Pharasees practice the "traditions of the elders" which actually break Torah (what Moses said). Read Mark 7 and see how Jesus says that God's word = What Moses said = The Commandments of God.

Show me in the Bible where is says how to kill an animal. You are confusing Torah with Talmud. It is not surprising though - all the early church fathers did the same when they seized power from the Jerusalem Council and made a pagan-Faith amalgamation called Christianity.

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>>137314976
Well technically no since the world is corrupted, not born evil. Paul said
>all things are permissiable to eat as long is it is eaten with thankfullness
Also the bible says
>nothing is unclean in of itself

jesus was a faggot

>>137315322
Except that Gamliel did not take issue with jesus's interpretation of the law. That's not jujst in the bible even the kikes admit it. Not all pharisees

>>137314973
>consecrated by the word of God
There are verses that consecrate foods and says other things are not food. Which "Word" are you referring to? Paul obeyed Torah.

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>>137315343
this is talking about the last days of the world when people are teaching to abstain from CLEAN MEATS the ones which god created to be eaten "For every creature of God" is talking about the clean ones "For it is sanctified by the word of God" is talking about the old testament when he said which animals were clean

1 Timothy 4:1-5
1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

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>>137291114
>Matthew 5:17

Christ fulfilled the Law with his perfect blood sacrifice upon the cross. The blood sacrifices of the old testament are moot now. It'd be like if you were thrown in jail with $20,000 bail, your friend pays it all, but then you scrape together $5,000 and give it to the police anyway.

That is to say, Jesus didn't ABOLISH the law (blood sacrifices) but he FULFILLED them (his own sacrifice on the cross). Paul specifies this:

>15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

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>>137315812
>he's saying clean meats
Except he said nothing is to be refused if recieved with thanksgiving
>nothing
Also the Church Traditiosn say this as well
>Nothing is unclean in of itself
ASOmewhere in Romans or in Corinthians this passage is said that is a literal quotation.

>>137315439
The line of Gamliel, which Paul was a student of, are alive today. They throw out the Talmud and stick to the Torah = Jesus. They are called Karite Jews. Too bad Christians misrepresent Jesus to them as a law breaker who changed the law (breaking Deut 4:2) and taught a different way to God (breaking Deut 13). Jesus never did any of those things. He upheld all the law and advocated that all who know him follow that same Way.

Atheism has gotten me nowhere, but Christianity is really just too nutty. Maybe I should become a Buddhist...

Jesus did fulfill the Law. The Law was never meant to last forever, salvation through faith alone was always meant to take it's place, as Christ was the ultimate sacrifice to appease the Law.

>>137315812
>>137316076

F.Y.I. "meat" just means "meal." Obviously it can also mean animal flesh, but the word is generic

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>>137316106
Gamiel is a venerated man in all Church Traditiosn

>>137315843
QUOTE the verse please bro.

He "fulfilled" the law. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VOqcpt6_BY&t=1s

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>>137316076
>4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused

THE CREATURES OF GOD ARE THE CLEANS ONES

nothing to be refused from the old testament clean animals

>>137316217
That's good to know thankyou

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>>137291114
Nothing Paul says in the Bible contradicts Jesus

Your understanding of scripture is just lacking and imperfect

>>137291114
>apparent
If they were apparent, you wouldn't truly believe there is an explanation. What you should say is "supposed," because you suppose contradictions. It is -apparent- that you either don't know what "apparent" means, or the purpose of your choice of wording is only to compensate for the weakness of your insinuated argument. In case there's some third variable, like your just being an idiot, you can find your answer with a simple google search.

>>137316293
Wlel the whole world is corrupted and all tihngs have good in them. To deny that nothing is unclean in of itself is to deny the Lord's divinity because you assume he cannot make a good world to being with Heretic

>>137316258
Please read this: http://nazarenejudaism.com/?page_id=203

>>137316154
I guess you need to get your black marker out:

"All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal." - Psalm 119:160

>>137316521
Screencap it, I'm not visiting (((websites))). I'm sorry to hear that you dont like Gamaliel the historians in the Church all say that he converted to Christianity before even paul did and was just jewing around.

>>137316697
Saint Jerome's Admission

Yeshua did not come to create a new religion, but to be the Jewish Messiah of the old one. What many Christians do not know, is that the Church Fathers admitted that the original followers of Yeshua as Messiah, including Paul, were Jews of the sect of the Nazarenes, and that Gentile Christianity was their own invention.

Of course the New Testament tells us Paul was a “ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes” (Acts 24:5). The so-called church fathers tell us quite a bit about these “Nazarenes”.

The fourth century “church father” Epiphanius gives a detailed description:

But these sectarians… did not call themselves Christians–but “Nazarenes,” … However they are simply complete Jews. They use not only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Jews do… They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion– except for their belief in Messiah, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that God is one, and that his son is Yeshua the Messiah. They are trained to a nicety in Hebrew. For among them the entire Law, the Prophets, and the… Writings… are read in Hebrew, as they surely are by the Jews. They are different from the Jews, and different from Christians, only in the following. They disagree with Jews because they have come to faith in Messiah; but since they are still fettered by the Law–circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest– they are not in accord with Christians…. they are nothing but Jews…. They have the Goodnews according to Matthew in its entirety in Hebrew. For it is clear that they still preserve this, in the Hebrew alphabet, as it was originally written. (Epiphanius; Panarion 29)

The “church father” Jerome (4th Cent.) described these Nazarenes as those “…who accept Messiah in such a way that they do not cease to observe the old Law.” (Jerome; On. Is. 8:14).

But in a letter to Augustine, Jerome makes an amazing admission concerning the Nazarenes:

“The matter in debate, therefore, or I should rather say your opinion regarding it, is summed up in this: that since the preaching of the gospel of Christ, the believing Jews do well in observing the precepts of the law, i.e. in offering sacrifices as Paul did, in circumcising their children, as Paul did in the case of Timothy, and keeping the Jewish Sabbath, as all the Jews have been accustomed to do. If this be true, we fall into the heresy… [of those who] though believing in Christ, were anathematized by the fathers for this one error, that they mixed up the ceremonies of the law with the gospel of Christ, and professed their faith in that which was new, without letting go what was old. …In our own day there exists a sect among the Jews throughout all the synagogues of the East, which is called the sect of the Minæans, and is even now condemned by the Pharisees. The adherents to this sect are known commonly as Nazarenes; they believe in Christ the Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary; and they say that He who suffered under Pontius Pilate and rose again, is the same as the one in whom we believe. But while they desire to be both Jews and Christians, they are neither the one nor the other.

>>137291114
(((christianity))) is fake OP. Never forget that and you will never have any questions about its contradictions.

>>137291114
Paul and to be honest let's call him by his actual name, Saul, is a pile of shit
Never met Jesus.but wrote enough to those damn conrinthians as if this Jew was there alongside Jesus
There is a reason templars spit at the gospel of st Saul. They reject his influence over the sole focus on the passion and crucifixion of Jesus.fuck saul

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>>137316493
you get in a fight with god over eating bacon

just admit its not a good thing ur allowed to do bad things

it doesnt have to be a contradiction and cognitive dissonance

i live in a perpetual sin by not keeping the sabbath n going to church

many perpetual sins

i eat pork too . but im against it and im breaking the law

>>137316697
I therefore beseech you, who think that you are called upon to heal my slight wound, which is no more, so to speak, than a prick or scratch from a needle, to devote your skill in the healing art to this grievous wound, which has been opened by a spear driven home with the impetus of a javelin. For there is surely no proportion between the culpability of him who exhibits the various opinions held by the fathers in a commentary on Scripture, and the guilt of him who reintroduces within the Church a most pestilential heresy. If, however, there is for us no alternative but to receive the Jews into the Church, along with the usages prescribed by their law; if, in short, it shall be declared lawful for them to continue in the Churches of Christ what they have been accustomed to practice in the synagogues of Satan, I will tell you my opinion of the matter: they will not become Christians, but they will make us Jews.
(Jerome; Letter 75)

(1) “Minæans” apparently Latinized from Hebrew MINIM (singular is MIN) a word which in modern Hebrew means “apostates” but was originally an acronym for a Hebrew phrase meaning “Believers in Yeshua the Nazarene”.

>>137316697
Jerome repeats Augustine, saying of the Nazarenes: “since the preaching of the gospel of Christ, the believing Jews do well in observing the precepts of the law, i.e. in offering sacrifices as Paul did, in circumcising their children, as Paul did in the case of Timothy, and keeping the Jewish Sabbath, as all the Jews have been accustomed to do.” (Jerome; Letter 75 Jerome to Augustine)

Jerome responds saying of the Nazarenes “though believing in Christ, [they] were anathematized by the [church] fathers for this one error, that they mixed up the ceremonies of the law with the gospel of Christ, and professed their faith in that which was new, without letting go what was old.” (ibid)

In other words Augustine and Jerome tell us that the Nazarene doctrine that the Torah should still be observed began with “the preaching of Christ” and was the doctrine kept by Paul, but that the church “fathers” of Christianity declared this to be an error and a heresy.

>>137316697
Ignatius Invents Anti-Nomian Christianity

Up until the time of Ignatius (in the late first century), matters of dispute that arose at Antioch were ultimately referred to the Jerusalem Council (as in Acts 14:26-15:2). Ignatius usurped the authority of the Jerusalem council, declaring himself as the local bishop as the ultimate authority over the assembly of which he was bishop, and likewise declaring the same as true of all other bishops and their local assemblies. Ignatius writes:

…being subject to your bishop…
…run together according to the will of God.
Jesus… is sent by the will of the Father;
As the bishops… are by the will of Jesus Christ.
(Eph. 1:9, 11)

…your bishop…I think you happy who are so joined to him,
as the church is to Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is to the Father…
Let us take heed therefore, that we not set ourselves
against the bishop, that we may be subject to God….
We ought to look upon the bishop, even as we would
upon the Lord himself.
(Eph. 2:1-4)

…obey your bishop…
(Mag. 1:7)

Your bishop presiding in the place of God…
…be you united to your bishop…
(Mag. 2:5, 7)

…he… that does anything without the bishop…
is not pure in his conscience…
(Tral. 2:5)

…Do nothing without the bishop.
(Phil. 2:14)

See that you all follow your bishop,
As Jesus Christ, the Father…
(Smy. 3:1)

>>137316697
By exalting the power of the office of bishop (overseer) and demanding the absolute authority of the bishop over the assembly, Ignatius was actually making a power grab by thus taking absolute authority over the assembly at Antioch and encouraging other Gentile overseers to follow suite.

Moreover Ignatius drew men away from Torah and declared the Torah to have been abolished, not only at Antioch but at other Gentile assemblies to which he wrote:

Be not deceived with strange doctrines;
nor with old fables which are unprofitable.
For if we still continue to live according to the Jewish Law,
we do confess ourselves not to have received grace…
(Mag. 3:1)

But if any one shall preach the Jewish law unto you,
hearken not unto him…
(Phil. 2:6)

It is also Ignatius who first replaces the Seventh Day Sabbath with Sunday worship, writing:

“…no longer observing sabbaths, but keeping the Lord’s day
in which also our life is sprung up by him, and through
his death…”
(Magnesians 3:3)

>>137316697
Having seceded from the authority of Jerusalem, declared the Torah abolished and replacing the Sabbath with Sunday, Ignatius had created a new religion. Ignatius coins a new term, never before used, for this new religion which he calls “Christianity” and which he makes clear is new and district religion from Judaism. He writes:

…let us learn to live according to the rules of Christianity,
for whosoever is called by any other name
besides this, he is not of God….

It is absurd to name Jesus Christ, and to Judaize.
For the Christian religion did not embrace the Jewish.
But the Jewish the Christian…
(Mag. 3:8, 11)

Conclusion

By the end of the first century Ignatius of Antioch had declared that the Nazarene doctrine that the Torah should still be observed which Augustine admitted began with “the preaching of Christ” and was the doctrine kept by Paul to be an error and a heresy.

He seceded from Judaism and founded a new religion which he called “Christianity”. A religion which rejected the Torah, and replaced the Seventh Day Sabbath with Sunday Worship.

Yeshua did not come to create a new religion, he came to be the Messiah of Judaism. The original followers of Yeshua as the Messiah were a sect of Judaism called the sect of the Nazarenes (Acts 24:5).

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>>137291114

ITT - People who believe in the perfect truth of the bible.

>>137316697
I should say also - Jesus came to be not only the Messiah for the Jews but for all of the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Jesus said He only came for those lost sheep, did He not? Is He lying? If you believe in Jesus (The Real one found in Scripture), you ARE Israel.

>>137317466
Ignatius's was hand chosen by the 12 apostles

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>>137317339
You're just ignoring two thousand years of church tradition and understanding if Torah and Paul and ignoring two very plain bjble verses you're just a heretic, useless and fit for nothing like your shitty 3d waifu

>>137291114
Wow, I didnt know that all this you dont have to follow the law/commandments came from Paul. Very interesting

>>137317977

The KJV was the best translation. It was translated by a multi-denominational team of nearly 100 of the world's best scholars. Those men were fluent in 10+ language, including Hebrew, Latin, and Greek. They actually conversed in Latin

>>137291114
Jesus's resurrection.

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>>137318533
church tradition can suck my balls

catholics arent saved

why would god say "these things are unclean unto you" and then say NOPE NVM JUST KIDDING. I HAD YOU DOING ALL THAT STUFF FOR NO REASON

>>137291114
So by all means call me a newfag, but given all the threads that the mods here kill, how does this religious stuff manage to survive on /pol/?

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>>137317425
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

>>137319366

Hi new friend. /pol/ is a christian board. In the free market place of ideas it is only the true values and virtues which survive. Truth and christianity.

>>137291114
>Christians of /pol/: how do you explain the apparent contradictions between the message of Jesus and the message of Paul?
I actually get off my ass and go READ THEM IN CONTEXT instead of pretending nobody who wrote the bible noticed and nobody else asked for two thousand fucking years.

I fucking HATE atheists!

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>>137317977
i really like the 2nd to the last one the best

>>137318277
That's cool. But how many miracles did he preform? You have to admit that something was lost from those original super apostles. That "thing" was Torah - the Way of life, and the way our Messiah followed.

>>137320270
Quite a few miracles

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>>137291114
There is no contradiction.

>"Do we, then, nullify the law (Torah) by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law (Torah)." -Romans 3:31

>"The law (Torah) was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:20, 21

"So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed. That, however, is not the way of life you learned when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness." Ephesians 4:17-24

>“For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” Galatians 2:19-21

If a person has faith, then the good works will be naural to them. Good trees produce good fruit, but bad trees produce bad fruit. A tree whose roots are faith, will produce good fruits. Faith comes first, good works will follow. For good faith cannot help but to bear good works.

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>>137320541
i disagree with the last part

knowing them by their fruits is not talking about their good works its talking about false prophets and their false teachings

a born again christian could get saved and then not do one single good work his entire life and be saved

faith does not produce good works inherently

thats a choice you get to make if you want to continue in good works

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>>137319663
>/pol/ is a christian board

HAHAHAHAHA

>>137302055
>flag
Shit, this guy is probably either legit or a muslim.

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>>137320928
If you trusted your father when he ordered you then you would one because you would believe that he had good reason for doing so whether you understand or not

>>137305384
>John I won't talk about because it's really, really different.
There's an old atheist joke about that, something to the effect of "most of the gospels were wrote by stoners, but John was on crack, and fuck knows what happened when they wrote Revelations".

>>137320541
Christ gave us the spirit of the Torah. One that starts with the heart (and way more difficult that keeping the 613 commandments).

Judaizers keep on trying to bring back the church to judaism. With no avail. They are reading the scriptures like carnals.

>>137316684
I recommend using the correct English translation

"Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever."

One of His righteous judgments being that the low should one day be fulfilled

>>137320928
>"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." -James 2:14-26

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>>137321971
>Can such faith save them?
yes faith can save him. notice how he doesnt answer the question. he doesnt say no. it just means ur faith is useless not talking about getting saved by works


>2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


we have to explain this every day on here -__- dumb dumb catholics

FYI /pol/, Matthew is a very contentious book. If you have an opinion about anything, Matthew is likely to disagree with you. For example, the SAB lists 146 contradictions in Matthew, more than any other book of the Bible.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/contra_list.html

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>>137321971
The True Meaning Of James 2 - ''Faith Without Works Is Dead'' - Baptist Sermon Excerpt, King James
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3QCpp2J5M0

>>137322656
thats cuz matthew is more geared towards the jews if u understand dispensationalism and the fact that theres different groups of people on earth and different times

>>137298334
There are a ton of Christian schisms based on these tiny semantic arguments. My favorite is the miaphysite controversy

>God is the trinity combined as one!
>No, God is the unity expressed as three!
>Die, heretic scum!

>>137323137
>Not understanding jewey

>>137323137
Problem is our words and concepts are based on and used to describe everyday experiences not the divine.
>light is like a wave
>light is like a particle
The nature of light is not "like" anything, it just is. Similarly God is not "like" three things or one thing though both views probably have mountains of context justifying them.

>>137313201
Can confirm, dressed-up kids tend to come to my door just before November starts, I don't know why. They try to scare me into doing something for them and I often have to lash out at them before they'll leave. It's only the adults that ever say anything convincing to me.

>>137322453
>yes faith can save him. notice how he doesnt answer the question. he doesnt say no. it just means ur faith is useless not talking about getting saved by works
But it does, he's talking about those that say "I accepted Jesus into my heart! I don't need no law! SAVED BY GRACE TIME TO GET CRUNKKKK!!":
>As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

And Jesus spoke about this also:
"“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." -Matthew 7:21

But let's go deeper into the verses in Romans you quoted.
>Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised." Romans 4:9-12

Con't

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>>137327683
the will of the father defined:

John 6:40
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

the people saying lord lord are the catholics who thought their works was going to save them

>>137328766
Trust me, I'm no catholic. They're a dead church.

I'm not saying "Your going to hell if you eat pork!". What matters to God is right conduct that stems from faith. And if you have the faith, you should desire to do good. Faith and good works are symbiotic of each other. If someone does good works without faith in Jesus, it's the same as if they had never done it in the first place. Likewise, if someone claims to have faith in Jesus, and lives a self-serving life, they are a hypocrite, according to Christ himself:

>“Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 24:45-51

>>137316106
You make all of us Marcionists, you Ebionite.

>>137313486

You're welcome. The history of the New Testament is really interesting to me; I wish I remembered a bit more than I do, and wish I were more familiar with Luke-Acts, but oh well. It's very hard to make progress toward knowing the actual history (I don't know much desu) because it requires lots of undoing of things you "know" to be true which actually aren't. But you learn them because that is how popular culture and a lot of traditions teach them. It's extremely easy to fall into making anachronistic statements if you aren't familiar with the chronology.

This is why I (personally) think if I were starting on the Bible with someone, I would begin with Paul.


>>137313617
I'm sorry anon I don't mind talking with you about it, but I don't want to watch all of these videos. Can you say the basic premises?

>>137294078
>get away with it
are you retarded?

>>137331497
you believe the same thing as the catholics
(faith and works)

watch the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3QCpp2J5M0

its faith alone bro

that matthew verse probably talking about unsaved people going through the tribulation

>>137331497
https://faithalone.org/

this is a really good resource they answer pretty much every question that would make you doubt faith alone

they will send you free magazines n shiet

>>137321754

Yeah...there are some interesting ideas about how John (and revelations) came to be.

One idea--which as far as I can tell is pretty common--is that John is written by a group of Jesus-followers who saw themselves as outcasts, not accepted by the other Jesus-following groups. This helps to make sense of a lot of things in John, in particular, these confounding (and sometimes humorous) scenes where Jesus talks with people who are incapable of understanding him, e.g., when he talks with Nicodemus. It also (maybe?) explains the Beloved Disciple. The idea there is that this outcast Jesus-following group uses the Beloved Disciple--maybe their group's leader--to make themselves closer to Jesus and feel better about their outcast status.

Revelation has a long and interesting history which I would probably butcher, but it went from being marginalized, to very difficult to get rid of, and finally had to be canonized. I can talk more about it if anyone cares.

I think it is very important for people to remember that these religious groups are not necessarily religious groups first and foremost--they are also very important as social groups that can provide a lot of other utility for followers. So it's important when reading the New Testament to think about what kinds of social groups each text is attempting to form, and how the texts are conducive to social organization.

>>137334381
>you believe the same thing as the catholics
(faith and works)
No, as I've said before, good works cannot bring glory to God without Faith, and faith without good works mocks the name of Christ.

Protestants/Evangelicals are just the same coin as the Catholics/Orthodox, only a different side.

Catholics are only interested in doing good works when it makes them look good, otherwise they behave like heathen.

Likewise Protestants/Evangelicals harp on and on about faith in Christ and behave also like heathen when church is over.

They both have a form of religion, but deny the power thereof.

And no, I've already watched Anderson's videos. He's pompous, self-righteous, and refuses to hear any argument he doesn't like. His church is a cult-of-personality, much like the Westboro Baptists.

>>137334665
>Free Grace theology is the view that

1. everlasting life is a free gift that cannot be lost, received by faith alone in Christ alone, apart from works of any kind;
I disagree with the "cannot be lost". If that was the case, then one need only get "saved" and can commit adultery, murder, and summon demons and still end up in heaven. That's heresy defined.
2. assurance of our eternal destiny is based solely on believing Jesus’ promise to the believer, and not on looking to our works, experiences, or behavior;
And deny God the honor so they don't have to try to live righteously?
3. believers are accountable for our actions before God, and will be judged at the Bema to determine our eternal rewards, but not our eternal destinies.
In that case, we will see Hitler in heaven.
Talk about all style, no substance.

>>137305205
Lol, most Jews today follow Reform Judaism, which is practically a mainline Protestant offshoot. Judaism only exists in the rabbinic form today because the Pharisees had to invent a fake scripture from scratch in reaction to getting BTFO by Christianity.

>>137318581
It didn't come from Paul. Jesus also didn't obey some of the Mosaic commandments, like not working on the Sabbath.

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>>137337332
if he believed in christ then yes hitler would be in heaven

its not about pastor anderson this is the true perspective of james 2 regardless of who it came from

>then one need only get "saved" and can commit adultery, murder, and summon demons and still end up in heaven.

correct youre actually the one teaching heresy and works salvation

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Ephesians 1:13-14
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:38
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

>>137291114
You're asking the wrong question, OP, and your question gives you away. There is no "vs." when it comes to Jesus and Paul. If you're a Christian, you'd know this.

Jesus, the God-Man, came to Earth at a specific time to fulfill a specific set of requirements in re the chosen people's sacrifices. Paul talks about this in his letters. Jesus was the unblemished Lamb, the perfect sacrifice. The sacrifices the Jews made in the temple were merely a shadow of things (Jesus) to come. Jesus fulfilled all the requirements of God, and so man could once again enjoy relationship with God.

The crucifixion was the triumph of Jesus' time here on earth. He nailed our sins on that cross, once and for all. "It is done."

Paul's mission was to the Gentiles, you're right on that account. His several letters attest to his deep understanding of the riches of Christ, and Him crucified. On the flip side of that coin is Peter, whose mission was to the Jews. If you read Acts you'll see how these two apostles divided up the mission work this way.

So, there is no "contradiction," and there is no "vs." Jesus had a mission, Paul had a mission.

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>>137337332
youre basically conflicting two ideas

you think just because we believe in free gift of eternal life that somehow means we want you to go out and commit adultery and fornication when its simply not true

you can believe in good morals and free gift at the same time

>>137291114
lol the bibke and contradictions are like anime and tiddies. it's basicaly one and the same. its odd though that christians (and i mean no offense) apparently either weasle out of this particular tight spot or blatantly ignore it all the same. but hey, we all know that already

>>137338388
But then, who has the Father given? Who has he sealed from the beginning?
This brings up the free will/election debate, of which both are faulty.

Also, what about those before Christ? Are they condemned, if they died before Christ, having not receive salvation?

>>137339121
>you think just because we believe in free gift of eternal life that somehow means we want you to go out and commit adultery and fornication when its simply not true
But people will take it that way. That is the nature of man.

>you can believe in good morals and free gift at the same time
I agree with you on this, but salvation is no one moment in a person's life, but a lifetime of perfecting through Christ.
Seeds are free and easy to find, but the most beautiful and fruitful ones are carefully maintained.

I hope I don't come across as mean or dismissive, but I used to believe the same things you say. But the more I read the Bible without the lens of a certain theology, the more I understood the purpose of the Law and Gospel, and how they intertwine together to perfect a person's spirit.
Salvation is free, but good works stemming from that salvation are the perfection of our salvation through Christ, for his glory.

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>>137341413
its not free if you have to work for it

which is what the bible says

Romans 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

youre wrong bro

salvation is easy in fact it just takes calling on the name of the lord

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>>137341413
god wants his children to keep the law and grow in good works

it is a complete heresy to say youre saving yourself by doing those works
and that you need works to be saved

thats not faith alone

Galatians 2:16-17
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

it says god forbid

dont sin either way just because he gives you grace

it says dont do it

BUT YOU CAN.

can somebody explain to me exactly what in the name of everlasting freak Paul is talking about when he claims we were saved, redeemed etc. through the Passion...? I get the Jews had a system of sacrifice but... I scarcely understand how them mercilessly killing Jesus absolved them of their sins...? and what about for gentiles?

>>137291114
>(2)

>>137342894
I never said you can save yourself through good works, if so then Christ died for nothing, which obviously is not true. But good works are a sign that faith has taken hold and is increasing in the saved.
You don't sow a seed into the ground and not cut the weeds that grow up beside it, because it will suffocate and died.
Salvation is free, any can repent and turn to God, but if that salvation is not carefully maintained and cultivated, it will wither away. Many are called, but the chosen are few.

>dont sin either way just because he gives you grace
>it says dont do it
>BUT YOU CAN.

Just because I can run into oncoming traffic, doesn't mean I won't die from it.

>>137343368
The passion is Christ's act of dying for the sins of the world, to suffer in place of those who deserve death. That's why he's called the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, the perfect offering without blemish.
As Adam was a perfect man when he sinned, so it took the perfect sacrifice of the son of God to redeem the sons of Adam from sin.
I hope that made sense.

>>137303648
>He quarrelled with the Apostles
This is one of the reasons I am wary of Paul. What would you have to do to get the Apostles angry with you?

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>>137291114
they do it FOR FREEEEEE!

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bretty gud thread thanks guys

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>>137345632
that is what you are teaching when you say faith must have works you are teaching work salvation

>good works are a sign that faith has taken hold

no in romans 4 it says theres going to be UNGODLY people who WORK NOT

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

>Many are called, but the chosen are few.

why would he tell them to go and invite both BAD AND GOOD

Matthew 22:10
So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

lmao

the people chosen are the believers in christ

>>137295363
nope. you can't explain the dying thief being granted entrance into heaven by jesus himself otherwise.

>>137345632
no, that absolutely did not make any sense... I am sorry but it just does not!

Are you aware of the system of sacrifices that the Jews had in place? and that our Lord was crucified on the exact day and time they would have sacrificed the Lamb? but he is not a lamb... and they were not sacrificing him, they were murdering him, and even if they were sacrificing him, that only cleanses the Jews from sin, because only the jews had the temple.

If anything; and indulge me some wild speculation, doubtlessly horribly heretical...

Why in the world would killing a goat justify men before God? where does this notion of sacrifice come from? in my opinion, when we sacrifice something to a god, or God; it is an act of faith, we give up something we need in order to prove to God that we believe in his power, his reality, and his capability to provide us with everything we need, we show we trust in him...

>>137346996
You can though.
By repenting of his sin, while acknowledging Jesus as Lord, he was saved. If he had lived from that point on he would have gone on to do good works if his faith was true, but he was being crucified, so he physically could do any work, but his faith was counted to his as righteousness. Thus Jesus' words "I say this to you today, you will be with me in paradise."
It was an extraordinary circumstance, but one that illustrates that repentance is like a work itself, it takes humility to admit your guilt when it seems like it won't matter because your going to bleed out and die either way, but it's still an ACT of faith to admit in such a way.

>>137345632
and it is perhaps this small act of sacrifice which can justify us before God, as it shows at least a small amount of faith, and likewise Abrahams sacrifice shows a tremendous faith, and Jesus's perhaps more... but these cannot explain how gentiles are justified through Christ anymore than through Abraham

the jews rejected Jesus several times, on the last time, when Jesus was ready to come down from heaven, the jews rejected him again, and God went from the jews to the greek (gentiles) since the jews didnt want their messiah, along with to bring them to jelousy they now the gentiles are being saved, through grace, and believing. if you read the bible and rightly divide the word of truth, you'll see we are in the grace period.what Jesus was preaching was that there was to be a kingdom if they jews didnt reject Jesus, well they did. Jesus told paul this is how things will be, God told paul this is how they get saved, (a gentile was saved just for believing IE being baptized BY the holy ghost not by water)

Jesus came not unto those but the lost sheep of the house of isreal WE DO NOT LIVE UNDER THOSE TIMES WE HAVE A DIFFERENT GOSPEL, PAUL'S GOSPEL GIVING TO HIM BY REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST, GOD HIMSELF GAVE PAUL THE KEYS TO THE GENTILES SALVATION

>>137291114
Paul came AFTER Jesus did all that was necessary, so of course there were changes. Especially regarding the law. When Jesus revealed Himself to Paul, the law was already fulfilled, so bigtime changes were bound to happen

>>137348271
>If he had lived from that point on he would have gone on to do good works
but he didn't and he had spent his entire life actively breaking the law and doing bad things which means he was saved by faith alone because your works are literally meaningless and every sin you commit is weighted the same as the worst crimes you can think of. Faith is the only thing God cares about and it's obvious

>>137347539
>Why in the world would killing a goat justify men before God? where does this notion of sacrifice come from?

if you read the OT its not the killing of the animal, its the blood shed that atones for your sins, a priest would have to have his sins atoned for by blood, and so on and so forth

this is how it was, once Jesus came into the picture, he was to be the sacrifice, the lamb of god, a lamb without blemish was needed and in the old testement and the new, but the new was Jesus
we live under grace beliveing that Jesus shed his blood (being the lamb needed for the passover sacrifice, again they needed a lamb without blemish in the OT because the blood was what atoned for your/their sin, you had to be the one spilling the blood of the animal, but the priest offered the blood to God for your sins)

>>137350271
Reiterating his point, he wasn't saying works are necessary or solely important. As he specified, faith yields good works.

>>137347539
I know about the various sacrifices: the drink offerings, grain offering, burnt sacrifices, trespass offerings, etc.
It's more of God was sacrificing his son to atone for man's sin. That was Christ's entire reason for being: to atone for the sins of man, God's creation, and teach them right conduct so they could rise above the cycle of perpetual sin.

>Why in the world would killing a goat justify men before God?

It doesn't justify them, it absolves them. To say it justified would be like Godsaying "It's cool you did that, cause you killed a goat."
The whole process of a sacrifice was to transfer your sins to the animal, and killing it means your sins (which are worthy of death) are absolved.
The jews did abuse this system (Malachi talks about this), to the point that God hated their sacrifices, because they did it out of tradition and hypocrisy, and not repentance and faith.

Remember how it was man that sinned in the garden? Animals did not eat of the tree of knowledge, and so their blood is clean, meaning they don't know sin.
And no, God doesn't send animals to hell to pay the price of a guy fucking his neighbor's wife, by transferring it to an animal, the sin dies, but the animal is blameless, because it itself has committed no sin.
That's my take on it.

>>137348560
Yahweh is the God of the Jew and Gentile, whether they admit it or not. He created them, Jews have no advantage over gentile, and vis versa. But God had promised that through Israel a savior would be born that would save the sins of everyone. We gentiles were grafted into the cultivated olive that is Israel, gentiles are spiritual heirs of Abraham, if they love the same God Abraham loved.

>>137291114
fulfilling means that it stops.
Imagine a building contract. Once it has been fulfilled there is not need to keep building.

>until this law is accomplished
That was when Jesus died. No contradiction here either

>keep the commandements
Because at that time they were still valid. It was only 3 years after his death that cornelius received holy spirit without having been a jew before.

>>137293224
Duuuuude. The Lord our Jesus has brought upon us miraculous helpmates which bring succor upon his afflicted children. They do involve you needing to reach out to miracle workers, known as psychiatrists, to discern which ones are the best for you. BTW St. Mary sez you need to do this like, tomorrow. Or else your mother will die. So, chop chop!

>>137353654
It does have another meaning though.

To fulfill something means to uphold or see it through. Think about it this way:

>"Do no think I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to uphold (fulfill, literally "to fill fully") them."

>>137353654
it dont stop dude his words never pass away
commandments are all valid still not one thing pass from it
but u wont go to hell for not

Which apostle was the most based?

>>137325079
Great answer

>>137291114
When you come to start a revolution you don't say you're starting one.

Paul was just telling it like it was. Jesus was a subversive.

Christianity is a paulian sect that always was against the people who actually met and followed Jesus while he was alive. Christianity is largely based on the visions and dreams of Paul. Paul wrote more than half of the new testament and Jesus is quoted maybe more in the Qur'an than in the new testament. It is actually fairly little that is actually things Jesus said according to the Bible.

If Christianity was true then why did 2/3 of God come to this little rock on the outskirts of the milky-way and not to the billions of other planets with intelligent life? Only earth can have Christianity any other planet hearing the same message and it would not make sense.

Islam on the other hand can easily be a religion anywhere in the universe and to any kind of intelligent creature. And it's not even far fetched that intelligent creatures on the other side of the universe worship the creator of the universe without mixing anyone or anything else into the worship, but only worship the creator alone without worshipping any part of creation.

>>137306061
Duh. But the good kind.