Capitalists BTFO

>>136947298
Labor made it but Capitalism allowed that production to occur in the first place. Without that system, the factories wouldn't have been built for that product to allow the manufacturing of the product itself.

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>>136947484
No, it was the labour of builders that made those factories too

>>136947527
And if it wasn't for capitalism that demanded those factories built they wouldn't even be there to begin with.

The need and reason for their construction are why they are around in the first place.

>>136947527
No one would have made the factory if there was no fiscal incentive
Don't be a retard.
Marx is dead

Your version of socialism is no better than Lenin
You will never be the grand leader
Get the fuck out here, you egomaniacal fuck larping as a retarded commie

Marx is poison.

>>136947527
Why are you leaving out the mothers that birthed the laborers? They made the laborers who made the phone

Cuckitalists BTFO

>>136947298
Everyone can labor but few can innovate. Labor can't make something if there's no idea to turn into reality. Fuck communists.

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>>136947298
Behold the glory of Commie innovation and design.

>>136948138
You say that
But you haven't done anything
Go ask mom if your pizza rolls are done

CRINGEitalism

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>>136948284

>>136948465
You are legitimately retarded

>>136947298
Meanwhile all socialist and communist countries have either collapsed or reverted to allowing private business to takeover.

How's Venezuela doing?

>>136948465
Literally misses the entire fucking point of the above statement.

Communists are actually retarded.

>>136948465
You're a taught cuckhold
You were never allowed to question authority
Now you can't say no to your boss
You let them abuse you
And it's your fault

Maybe if you used the effort reading that flagrent info
To read your hiring contracts, you'd be better off

YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE

>>136948042
You are forgetting the trees that labored to make the oxygen that enabled that labor.

Trees made the iphone

>>136948824
But what about the sons of mothers who planted the tree?
What about the environment that died around it to fertilize the soil

God, commie are retarded

>>136947298
No, sound engineering and technological innovation made the iPhone. Some other people did put it together after others had spent countless hours making it.

>>136948603

Market economics and private industry are not exclusive to capitalism.

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>>136947298

>>136948934
>sound engineering
>technological innovation

sound engineers and technological innovators are labourers too.

>>136949153
yeah, the capitalists cant afford that food while the socialists all can

Marx was a fat decrepit piece of shit who never worked a day in his life. Gtfo

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>>136947298
Capitalism is the reason for the ideas and creativity that puts production in motion. Without that impetus, we would only have very bare necessities being produced. Do you want to live in such a world?

>>136947739
>Taking the bait this hard
Lurk more

>>136949217
>He thinks fixed food prices work
Made me kek

>>136949217
What food?

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>>136947298
But who researched the phone's design? Who taught the laborers how to construct the phone?

>>136948603
the public sector in Venezuela is 30-40% of the economy-in France it's 40%. if you go by the most conservative possible defintion of socialism (i.e. majority public ownership of the means of production), venezuela is not socialist. for comparison, the public sector in the usa is 28%

>>136947298
JUDISCHE KAPITAL

ORDER /ARBEIT/

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>>136947527
For any commies on this board I'd like to clear up a few things to make sure I understand your ideology correctly.

If I own a small business that hires no one, then I am not a capitalist. But the second that I hire someone to say, sweep the floors or clean the dishes, then I am a capitalist exploiter.

If I am a worker in a factory, then I am a proletariat that is being exploited. However, if I use some of my wages to buy stocks in that factory, then I am both a capitalist exploiting the workers AND a proletariat being exploited by the capitalists.

If the communist society comes about, then I can own a house with hammers, saws, lathes, 3D printers, and so on, since those are personal property and thus can be owned by me. But if my neighbor wants to use some of my tools to build something, I either have to let him do it for free or turn him down entirely, since demanding compensation for him using my tools would be exploitation and would make me a capitalist exploiter.

If I lend out my personal property to some people, and those people use that property to build a factory, I am not entitled to any share of that factory if I did not personally assist them using manual labor with the construction of that factory under Communism.

If I am the CEO of a large corporation, but I do not have any stocks, then I am just another proletariat being exploited by the capitalist class using wageslavery. But if I DO own stocks as a CEO, then I am part of the capitalist class and am exploiting others.

>>136948042

Why are you forgetting baby Jesus who birthed the universe

Has anyone ever given a coherent explanation for how our current standard of living could be achieved under communism?

I'm genuinely curious to hear it.

>>136947298
>Hey, you'd like a labour-based economy too?
>That's great, I'm a fan of national socialism as well! It's so good I'm not alone
Why have nobody done this yet

>>136947298
Yes, but only Capitalism can turn it into a mass (free) market.

Who gets paid in Communism anyway?

>>136947527
Builders build for free? So it's capitalism.. I think your thinking of slavery

>>136949485
If you own a company and then employ someone, you have to give half the company to them. You have to give half to the third, fourth etc employees too.

>>136949217
>socialist can afford nothing
really made the noggin joggin

>>136947298
>arthur chu
What is that guy up to these days other than sleeping with a deranged tranny.

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>>136949862
Even if they don't do half the work? If Joe comes in on the weekends to clean the dishes, I now have to give him HALF of my entire fucking business?

Strawman.
Nobody says "Capitalism made your iPhone".
The phrase is "without capitalism, you wouldn't have your iPhone". Which is 100% correct.

/thread

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>>136949153
>comparing a 3rd world shithole in South America to literally the most powerful nation in the world

>>136949841
No you don't get it. The laborers don't get paid a fair share of their contribution to the company

Ok so we abolish ownership so the workers own their own labor. Now how much do they get paid?

Nothing! But it's more fair!

>>136948465
>communist reading comprehension

>>136949153
>Venezuelans can't reach food on top shelf even when starving

>>136947298
"Labor" doesn't even make food under communism. The fuck makes him think luxury goods like iphones would get made?

>>136948042
No, cum made the phone.

>labour just magically creates wondrous technology and delivers it right to your door.
>no other steps required, no structured system of organization and management involving countless people working together and negotiating on a mind-boggling scale, all completely independent from the economy and the zeitgeist
>just a labourer labouring at his labour station assembling parts he laboured to pick himself from his organic silicon orchard, then bicycling them into town to sell to the local Apple Store

>>136950093
That country became a third world shithole because spics are literally addicted to socialism.

>>136950093
How do you think America got that way? Magic dirt?

North Korea's the same way as Venezuela, and they have a higher average IQ than the US.

>>136949318
I agree with your premise here, but I also believe any of commie fucks need to be thoroughly btfo at every opportunity, even if they are just shit posting.

>>136949974
>arthur chu

This dude is raw SJW garbage and besmirches his Taiwanese heritage.

>>136950387
Socialism isn't the main factor to the situation Venezuela's in though.
>>136950408
Post WW2 America became powerful because they were in the right place at the right time while having lots of resources and a high population. After the war many devestated nations were dependent on the US too.

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cummies are actually this retarded

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Imagine waking up every day and remembering you're Arthur Chu

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>>136947527
you cummies are on the polar opposite end of the spectrum from us. you're fucking retarded

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>>136947527

>>136947298
The only difference is that no one gets an iPhone because that would be a waste of materials for the socialist state. Capitalism lets retards buy things that are a waste of resources and time you stupid commie.

>>136949428
>the most conservative possible defintion of socialism

You mean the most simplistic and ignorant definition. Anyone whose argument necessitates considering a single variable in a bubble, removed from the multitude of other variables, is a fucking idiot.

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>>136947298
Oh damn, my system of living has been BTFO'd guess I should become commie.
>bread lines
>weekly coup
>1,345 differant rebel splinter groups
>class system still in place, a crime to speak of
>majority of budget goes to war materials while folks starve
>speak mind, shot
>sell kids to eat
>eat kids to live
>always hostile to rich capitalist neighbors
>leader are basically cult leaders
>PASTATTEMPTSWERENTREALLYCOMMUNISM.gif

>>136949622
To put it simply, the idea of full communism is a utopia. Despite what Marxist-Leninist governments claimed to be during the 20th century, they were not communist, simply by definition. It's up to interpretation whether they were socialist, state socialist, state capitalist, etc. but that's not the question here. The basic Marxist definition of communism is as follows: a stateless, classless mode of production in which all property (excluding personal property) is collectively owned and operated. A big part of Marxism can be summed up with the slogan "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." This means that each individual would contribute to society according to his abilities and would receive according to his needs.

The point of communism is that it's the final stage in human society. Many communists believe that the system can only exist in a post-scarcity society, in which manual labour is fully automated and we will have a society of people who will do whatever jobs they want. Without the restraint of wage labour, working hours, financial constraints, bills, taxes, etc., there'd naturally be full employment, by virtue of human desire to "work". Seeing as how full automation and full employment would exist, then society would continually improve and reach further beyond (think Star Trek), giving high standards of living for everyone rather than a privileged few, the majority of whom did nothing to earn this privilege, but rather were born into the right family.

>>136951140
Where am I mistaken in saying that socialism is an economic theory/mode of production where the means of production are owned and democratically operated by the workers as a collective?

Communists and socialists never made iPhones or anything close to it.

>>136948465
fucking idiot

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>>136951405
HEY, they made alot of guns and even more of their own people dead than anyone else ever could! They were accomplished, damn it!

>>136947298
Abundant cheap energy and the technology to exploit it made EVERYTHING. Declining EROI will end civilization as we know.

>>136949153
i haven't seen any venezuelan anons for awhile, did they all die?

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>>136951405
The first mobile phone was invented by a Soviet engineer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Kupriyanovich

>>136947298
I suppose that the guys who designed the iphone got a ton of money though. And I suppose physically assembling a phone isn't as hard as designing one.

>>136950093
a few years ago people were praising venezuela as a socialist paradise, then they ran out of money to take from the rich and suddenly NOT REAL SOCIALISM

>>136951916
Dead, imprisoned, "disappeared", plenty of things Im sure, we can only hope they find happiness in martial law.

>>136950093
Well, compare it to Brazil then. We have plenty of food in our shelves, even in favela markets.

>>136947298
>>136947527
Forgot to change your flag.

I guess those laborers did it out of love of work too.

>>136952083
Who was then shot for alternative ideas and all of his phones were melted down to make 7.62x39.

Capitalism - Factory owner gets paid

Communism - Party members get paid

>>136952394
Communism - Factory owner is a Party member

>>136947298
Comunism is a plague that needs to be exterminated.

>>136947298
>disincentivize entrepreneurship
>expect the same amount of entrepreneurship to be present
based commies

>>136952504
Pretty much

Both unregulated capitalism and socialism are bad
We need national capitalism, no matter how autistic that sounds

>>136950634
>Socialism isn't the main factor to the situation Venezuela's in though.

What was then? They're oil rich, no other oil rich countries look like Venezuela.

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>>136950093
Wow, you are a stupid nigger. Name one, just one commie country in the world that is working out for the citizens. You can't, and you never will be able to. If you like these communist dictatorships so much, move your dumb ass to North Korea.

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>>136947298
Where, To The Breadlines OP? kek

>>136948465
And your solution is to replace the capitalist as the overseer by the STATE? idiot

>>136947298
Labor is a component of a capitalist system. Labor is also a component of a socialist, feudal or communist system. Choose how you wish to Labor....Pro tip...Only one system gives you the most choice.

>>136947298
Profit, at its most basic level, is merely anything worth sacrificing for, so your little commune would still be entirely driven by profit.

Anyone weaving a basket or building a shed is spending time and materials in order to profit from their labor. In this case, the basket or shed is the profit.

If I receive an apple that you have grown, you have transferred ownership of your property to me. It is not being shared.

By seeding that tree, growing that apple, picking it, and giving it to me, I have profited from your actions. If I grow a potato and gave it to you, you have profited from my actions.

By your own definition, there is no absence of exploitation, everyone within a commune is exploiting each other all the time.

>>136952703
National Socialism sounds better.

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>>136947484
There would be no reason to invent an iphone under communisim, or any other inventions for that matter.
That's why communist countries fall behind, nothing is invented, no progress, no thinking, no entertainment.

You look at north korea which is still stuck somewhere in the 70's, nothing is advancing there. No one has the incentive to invent anything when they earn nothing.
Life under communism is misery and slavery.

>>136952733
CUB-, uh, SOVE-, wait too late, ugh, ARGEN-, shit, CHIN-, fuck they are pseudo communist. Commifagz, y dis so hard. :'(

>>136947298
Labor also makes feces. Only the free market separates the shit from the QUALITY.

>>136952982
Hitler's Germany worked from Rothschild loans he simply didn't want to pay back after the war

Socialism always uses other people's money, run out, take loans, and then take loans to pay previous loans

>>136947298
capitalism produced the ideas that allowed steve jobs to come up with that stupid shit to get rich and well known. Impossible under communism

>>136948217
Those cars are great actually. Commie CHOCOLATE on the other hand.

t. Soviet babby

>>136947527
Those laborers demanded compensation in the form of capital. Why are communists so fucking dumb? Everytime you idiots try to remove capital you are forced to point weapons at people to provide their labor.

Show me how poor the Communist Party memebers are in china. Show me their lifestyle compared to the laborer working in foxxconn. Tell me how chinese communism removed capital from their system.

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>>136953096
Or third world socialist countries that produce a product so cheap that you can replace it for pennies rather than dollars and just replace it sooner. I work as an alternator, strater builder, even the local auto shops perfer cheap shit with a life time warrenty....

>>136953219
What country did they loot in the first place to get that money for loans?

>>136949485
Wouldn't the use of your tools by your neighbor constitute exploitation by the neighbor? What right does he have to your labor that purchased the tools?

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>>136953513
Poland?

>>136947527
Capitalism, or rather the invisible hand of the market allocates ressources efficiently. And competition encourages developing new and better products. Only basic goods that are already known are produced in socialism. They have no means to determine price and no drive for innovation in consumer goods. They simply work from memory, but prices change, the world changes. Everything becomes increasingly inneficient. Then collapse. So no, no Iphone in socialism.

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>>136950093
Okay, this is a supermarket in Peru, faggot

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>>136948465
Instead of calling you (admittedly deserved) names, I'll try and say this nicely:

Your whole entire ideology is based on a premise which completely neglects to acknowledge ideas. Instead of accepting (like capitalism does) that different goods, services, and skills can't all be as commonly found and equally demanded, communism opts to simply ignore anything that is not immediately understood or appealing to the lowest common denominator.

In other words, your's is an ideology that only appeals to lowest rungs of society. The people who came up with it understood that stupid people cannot be happy around smarter people (a rare and in demand commodity). So what did they do? Stopped paying and sometimes killed the smarter people in their societies.

Was your proletariat in any batter shape after they killed their nobility and bourgeoning middle class in Russia? How bout in Cuba? How bout China? No, they we're all in the same fucking place they were before (if not worse) except now anyone who had money before was also in a shit position.

Basically, communism hates ideas. By saying the only thing that matters is labor. Your simultaneously saying ideas are inconsequential and meaningless. Clearly, society can't function purely off labor, right? So, is it not fair that we reward those that contribute in more abstract (less easily understood) ways?

>>136953691
>invisible hand of the market allocates resources efficiently
Are we still going with that when half of everything is owned by devious cretins?

>>136947527
Go die

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>>136950093
Venezuela, was for a while the richest country per capita in South America. Now, I'm pretty sure they are the poorest... Thanks to communism.

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>>136951259
> a stateless, classless mode of production in which all property (excluding personal property) is collectively owned and operated.

What if don't feel like sharing my property? If there is no state, then who enforces the rule that we share property? I like my factory, it seems like you guys are just hippies... My armed guards say you guys shouldn't be a problem -- since we don't have a state and all.

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>>136953546
Well since he doesn't have the right to my tools, that means he has to make all of his own tools, which is inefficient as hell.

>>136950093
Alright, what about Chile then?

I've always wondered what kind of smartphones the Soviets would have developed had the USSR not collapsed. Would we have seen a phone equivalent of the Trabant?

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>>136947298
yeah and if in the -ism the brain, in this case Steve Jobs gets no money, well why work ?

>>136947527
You really think a bunch of skill-less retards who do manual labor would have been able to organize, on their own, create a successful business model, design a factory to create the products, draft up a blueprint for the factory, build the facility itself, then create the products, the iPhone, design it themselves, etc.? This, coming from manual labor retards that can't do anything else besides manual labor?

No, everything that you now enjoy is only made possible because there was a financial incentive for someone who was actually smart enough to start a business out of it. The majority of "labor" is just "dumb labor", people too fucking stupid to innovate or create any kind of business of their own. The vast majority of people alive today would fucking starve to death if all the business owners went away and left them with no one to employ their retarded asses.

>Beating a dead ideology
it's all about putting people in debt and making sure they can't definitively own things now so the rich can never stop being rich.

>>136947527
Go be a communist somewhere else