MILITARY FINALLY GOES BACK TO .308

>>136645740
Lets just adopt FN FAL's with the super long barrel and wood furniture.

>>136645740
7x57 is better.

>>136645740
Not very suprising

just move on to 6.5mm already

>>136645740
>Military hosts another series of trials that will end up going nowhere or with them buying overpriced H&K crap that doesn't do anything better than the other competitors because they brought better cakes or something

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>>136646733
>millimeter
>using the metric jew

>>136646367
FN is the best

>>136645740
we did it

>>136645740
>not .30-06

What are you gay?

>>136646995
Laws against war crimes

>>136645740
>2021
>The army annouces they have decided on a replacement rifle
>It's the m4a2
How much you wanna bet this will happen

>>136645740
Nice

>>136645740
Dumb, dumb, dumb. I can see the merits of a battle rifle in a place like Afghanistan, where you're engaging people who are shooting at you from another mountain, but once you have to start fighting in forests, jungles, urban areas, suburban areas, and farmland with hedgerows, 5.56 is clearly superior.

I'd say the SCAR-H (MK17) should be the obvious choice. It's already being used by some SOCOM forces.

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>>136646841
It has to be metric, because of NATO.
I think we should dump the deadbeats, but...

>>136646995
Not very much difference between .308 caliber and .30-06. The case is about the same diameter. Just a tiny bit shorter, and use slightly less power. The primer is the exact same size.

>>136647121
I don't think there is anything like this. I know of restrictions to the type of bullet, but not the caliber.

>>136645740
Please be M14.

>>136647381
the scar h is basically a battle rifle

>>136647381
well the whole reason seems to be because of advancements in body armor, they don't think 5.56 is deadly enough apparently

>>136645740
.308 is a good choice. you can still fire 7.62 NATO ammo from .308 rifle. But .308 ammo will fuck up 7.62 rifles.

>>136645740
Just use an AR 10. This shit is so lame.

>>136645740
and this is on /pol/ why?

>>136647671

False.

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>>136647955
y not

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bring back G3?

>>136645740
FUCK YES
CHEAP .308 WHEN?
Also, why hold new trials? Just use the AR-10.

>>136646841

EDD Mounted... let them come.

>>136648222
range toys are deprecated

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New Zealand and the UK made the correct call and went LMT

We should as well and stop buying overpriced German weaponry.

M14s and FALs are the weapons of choice for the race war

>>136645740
No, that's not going to happen anytime soon.

>>136647565
I hear M80A1 (the new 7.62x51 NATO round) doesn't penetrate the supposed new body armor. I also have doubts how practical the new body armor is, i.e. how heavy it is.

>>136647671
They mean the 7.62x51 NATO cartridge, not the civilian .308 round. Additionally, rifles chambered in 7.62x51 can fire .308 rounds safely.

>>136647564
It is a battle rifle.

>>136648642
Russian new armor can withstand 7.62x54 from a sniper rifle, guessing Russia gave a bunch of these kits to Donbass fighters, and it surprised Ukraine and NATO.

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>>136647565
from what i heard, it's not like body armor is better or anything, there are just more situations now where the enemy is wearing stuff that might prevent a kill.

>>136649023
You have any idea how thick and heavy it is?

stopping power is a myth,keep 5.56

>>136649137
7.5kg for the vest and 15kg for neck,arm, and leg protection as well.

>>136649104
>>136647565

I had always read it's because 5.56 was designed with tight urban fighting in mind and in the fuck huge desert environment that most fighting is currently in, muds with ancient large caliber rifles are out ranging US soldiers

>>136647492
Different powder is also used.

>>136647671
Backwards

>>136649348
Hmm... any idea how intermediate cartridges perform against it? People in the know say that we cannot get any more performance out of the 5.56 cartridge.

>>136647492
Muzzle velocity attainable with the 30.06 is a lot higher.

>>136649734
5.56 or 5.45 ain't going through. this is why NATO is pissing it's self right now.

>>136649534
0-400m = 5.56x45
400-800m = 7.62x51
800-1200m = .300 Win Mag
>1200m = .338 Lapua

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>>136647549
FUCKING THIS

>>136647381
7,39 is much better in forests and urban areas

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>>136649907
Deebly goncernig

>>136649534
Read about Project SALVO and the SPIW and OICW programs. It was meant for piercing and automatic weapons.

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>military lowers standards because muh feminism
>we need a new .308! 5.56 isn't enough!

wew

>>136649776
200 feet/second isn't much when the muzzle is over 2600 ft/second in both cases. If you were shooting someone 200 yards away, it would make a difference, but for the majority of military applications, it really won't make much of a different.

>>136649609
You can use various different kinds of powders for both. There are several types of powder that could be used, each that burn differently. The powder that will depend on whatever everyone who deals with the contractors wants rather than depending on the caliber. You can find reloading manuals that describe the safe ranges for reloading bullets given bullet shape, caliber, powder types--factory powders are made within these safe ranges.

it's not that armor is necessarily getting better, it's that more people have access to it. back when we invaded Iraq in 2003 the sandniggers didn't have body armor at all, fast forward to today and now even the lowliest haji fuckhead has a full set of plates. US body armor (with ceramic plates) has been able to stop 7.62x54r from SVDs since around 2004-2006, so armor has been at about the same effectiveness since then.

>>136646757
I'll be surprised if they do anything at all. Talk of "lol goin back to 308 cause 223 aint no real bullet" happens a couple times a year. I'll believe it when I see it.

>>136646733
>just move on to 6.5mm already
Because we already have a shit ton of 7.62x51 NATO (.308)

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>>136646733
Digits and finally someone here early who knows their shit.

Why aren't we using smooth-bore electronically triggered firearms with caseless, sabot-launched, fin-stabilized tungsten carbide penetrators?

>>136647381
The only reason 5.56 became popular is because it makes for easier logistics.

>>136645740
>be me watching Terrence Popp
>video discussing the use of pussy 5.56 ammo
>Popp recommends .308 or .30-06
>checks gun cabinet
>.308 check
>.30-06 check

>>136651943
.308 is more widely manufactured than 6.5 mm. There are already a variety rifles the military already uses that uses .308. It's just easier for them to switch to .308.

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>>136652304
Why aren't we using tomahawks and gentlemen's rules for dueling?

>>136652304
Cause this ain't HALO nigga

>>136652813
Nothing is wrong with 5.56. It's good if you have an AR-15 or it's fully-automatic counterpart and can use a standard capacity (30 round) magazine and you're within 50 yards of your target. It's used in the military because it's easier to fire 5-10 shots into someone (and be able to keep a relatively tight group due to the low recoil) and switch to the next target (low recoil) than to fire one or two shots into someone with high recoil and have a harder time compensating for this. The AR-15 with 5.56 was introduced in order to replace the .308 M1A in order to compensate for the tendency of East Asians to do bonzai charges.

What is this magic armor that defeats green tipped 556?

6.5 Creedmoor feeds fine in an AR style platform.

Whatever round you go with, you're going to have to get one that uses a short action.
Shorter action = lower weight.

Options:
6.5 Creedmoor
7mm-08
.308

All have their pluses and minuses.

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>>136645740
5.56 does the job fine.
They just need to lighten the load more and up the range and stopping power.

The Americans fucked this up by ignoring the German research on the subject of a lighter cartridge and the work done on one by the UK and the Belgians in the 50s and demanding everyone go 7.62.

Then they suddenly decided smaller/lighter cartridges were a good idea, and promptly took it too far in the opposite direction with 5.56.

Basically should have done this in the 50s- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.280_British

>>136653484
Interesting.. Popp specifically mentioned that during his time in Iraq they would (often?) find enemy soldiers still alive and kicking with 5 - 6 rounds in them. Not good. His opinion was that one well placed .308 round would have ended them.

>>136653863
Ian did a nice vid on this

>>136648331
>CHEAP .308 WHEN?
Says the knob who thinks we can still buy 556 surplus

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>>136646841
>implying jews aren't white

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>>136652882
All it would take for 6.5mm to be manufactured on a wider scale is a military contract. Right now they're mostly civilian and special forces.

Also pls be rechambered Kel-Tec RDB.

>>136654037
God bless him, one Patreon channel I might actually donate to one day.

>>136653839
>up the range and stopping power.
Without changing the cartridge that is much more easily said than done. Barrel length can only do so much.

Different weapons for different jobs. They are tools and no one tool is perfect for every job.

>>136645740
>.308
>posts 12 gauge and 5.56

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>>136653863
>tfw this is what NATO would've looked like going into the Korean War if it wasn't for bickering

milifags can't use hollow point
of course they gotta use .308 if they're forced to use FMJ

>>136654201
THIS

In addition, the 5.56 has powder quantity almost at the maximum allowance for safe use (not blowing up or damaging the firearm). Anything else you can do would be changing caliber.

>>136646367
>adopt FAL
>remove communists
please

>>136654201
>>136654457
Hmm what about the 220 swift?

>>136646841
IMPERIAL
M
P
E
R
I
A
L

>>136649948


All these faggot numbers.

Just say Tall, Grande, Venti, Trenta

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>>136647381
>opts for 556 NATO
>says to use scar (((H E A V Y))) mark 1(((7)))
You have to be 18 and not a faggot anglo to argue on /k/ and /k/ related threads you fucking nogunz

>>136653922
There are so many factors that go into something like that. Armor, shot placement, drugs (on the hajji side), etc.

>>136647549
This guy gets it.

>>136653922
It's hard to kill people when your in combat even with .308. It does more damage, but it'll be a matter of less people still alive and kicking. Some would still be able to fight for a few minutes (there are many cases of this happening in all eras of warfare).

>>136654178
Why put out the effort and wait for the the producers to set up though? You can get the .308 more immediately since more is set up to produce .308, the specs are so close, and they virtually perform the same task for what they'd be used for.

Color me skeptical but wouldn't a change from 5.56×45mm to 7.62×51mm, besides being a change in bullet diameter and weight, also signal a change in doctrine or tactics?

>>136655157
I'm saying that the Mk17 would be the obvious choice for the contract. Way to get mad at someone because of your own reading comprehension learning disability.

>>136653922
Most of those guys were on drugs. And it doesn't really matter if they're dead or not as long as they can't fight anymore.

>>136645740
Why not just go to 6.5 or 6.8 and simply order conversion kits for the m16s we already have?

>>136654364
>took the photo in 2003

What did you do today, dude?

>>136655286
THIS

The only way I know that you can guarantee you'll stop someone in their tracks is if you hit them between the eyes head on so that you damage their hypothalamus.

Why don't we just use short barrel AR10s? I would cum buckets if we went back to the M14 though.

>>136655525
It's not going to happen. 7.62 NATO isn't that great of a round anyway. It can't really be accurate past 800m which is not much better than 5.56 and it shoots in a big stupid slow arc. Modern bullet designs have velocity and are flat shooting, and lighter such as 6,5 creed or even 2,80 British ffs.

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>>136646757
>>136651306
this.

>>136655750
M14s are fucking garbage, there's a reason they only lasted a few years. Gov cronyism in the Army Ord. Dep is what resulted in that piece of shit being adopted in the first place. The m-16 by comparison is a stoner design.

>>136655741
>Interim Combat Service Rifle
>Interim

Army logistics would need years before they'd be to field a new cartridge.

>>136655386
never used an m-14 in combat, i take it?

>>136654178
>rechambered Kel-Tec RDB
never

>>136655789
Interesting. I'm a fan of 30 caliber. I'm glad to see our military finally express an interest in moving beyond that pimped out .22.

>>136655921
Meant for:
>>136655605

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>>136655750
We need better marksmen, earlier.

6.5x55 swedish mauser is best for long range accuracy.

303 Lee Enfield ball ammo can actually peirce steel.

All ww1 and ww2 battle rifle rounds are better for stopping men and vehicles.

223 is garbage, redeems itself for training and the SAW.

308 makes for logical option to upgrade. 30 caliber is proven and strong. Many rifles in this round are already battle proven. FAL or M1A is much better option than AR10 types.

AR sucks. Has gotten better that last decade, but is still a high maintenance bitch.

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>>136645740
Change the world. Become the new illumanti. Go all in on $XBY. This war will make us rich.

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>>136645740
30-06 when????

Is this the armor that's defeating our shit ammo?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsvlxYaPubE

>>136656028
It's not merely pimped out. The mil ammo goes like 2600 fps. It shoots flat as fuck and is generally a nice round. 30 cal isnt necessary for most military applications. They discovered that 70 years ago actually.

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>>136655974
>I used a M14 in Sega SEAL Team 1 and got fragged and dropped my Mt. Dew

>>136648422
LMT fuck yeah

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>>136647814
Literally the only acceptable option for .308/7.62 on this whole nogunz nu/pol/ pleb board. Everyone else, please make sure the noose is fitted tightly around your windpipe

>>136655605
It's better to get new rifles. The Lower receiver is the primary concerned since it's milled for specific dimensions, specifically, it's milled to hold magazines for bullets of 5.56/.223's dimensions.

>>136656193
>30-06
>trying to train soldiers who don't hunt how to lob bullets like softballs

>>136655920
That's why they keep dusting them off to make up for what the AR lacks.

The m14 is far superior to the AR for combat. The soldiers that traded them that actually saw combat lost lives and hated the m16. It required high maintenence.

When the enemy kills us soldiers, they don't take the ARs. Because they are garbage. Warriors prefer 100 year old battle rifles over the AR.

>>136656193
1905-1945

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>>136656182

>>136656297
Really? My ex girlfriend said I had a .30 caliber cock. That's actually true and not some 4chan bullshit. She got me into guns.

>>136656598
Thats fuddlore. The army ord department was butthurt a private design was adopted over theirs so they didn't issue cleaning kits and changed the powder in the 5.56 they issued in the first few years. Those issues were quickly overcome.

>>136655974

Nope. My time in the army was spent taking care of dieing soldiers in a burn unit, and as a combat medic. I had to train and use a pos AR.

I own a M1A and no doubt I would take a scout squad over any AR all day long. I would take a Mossberg 590A1 over an AR.

What about you cherry, you got some more room in your cock holster to say some more stupid shit?

I would tell you to kill yourself. But you would probably use a 223 and live.

>>136656872
DI dindu nuffin just need more lube for dem chambers.

The unending defense of the shit Mattel gun is fudd

>>136657131
DI is fine for what the average soldier is doing (non-SBR, unsuppressed).

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>>136656988

>>136655552
If they aren't dead there is a chance they can still set off an ied or suicide belt when someone approaches... not acceptable.

>>136656872
My ass. Shoot two 30 round magazines out of an AR with even half way decent ammo and you build up enough residue to start having feeding problems.

So SPORTS was developed. Because a pos rifle. Because that's what you want to be doing in a fox hole or engaged in combat, dealing with fucking weapon malfunctions.

Not an issue with the m14. Or the FAL. Or the AK. SKS. Or most other battle rifles.

The AR is fucking garbage. It is great for training newbs and women. And the SAW makes the 223 redeemable.

>>136657532
You are literally retarded.

about time they moved away from a wounding round and switched to something thats designed to kill.

i swear those bean counters are the worst.

>shoot them in the torso twice to drop them, his friends will carry him
away thus rendering three soldiers unable for combat.

fuck you steevie, they shot their wounded instead of taking care of them. fucking savages

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>>136657532
>Shoot two 30 round magazines out of an AR with even half way decent ammo and you build up enough residue to start having feeding problems.

lel, pogue.

>>136653484
>It's used in the military because it's easier to fire 5-10 shots into someone (and be able to keep a relatively tight group due to the low recoil) and switch to the next target (low recoil) than to fire one or two shots into someone with high recoil and have a harder time compensating for this.
No, it's used in the military because they fire something like 10,000 shots per kill, and assault rifles or submachineguns are mostly just noisemakers to keep the enemy suppressed. It needs to be a credible threat, with good range, and hard to armor against (which is why they don't use .22 LR), but beyond that it should mainly be cheap and light.

Actually shooting someone is a significant, but rare case. Normally people die in a military gunfight of being suppressed long enough for a shrapnel factory to hold its grand opening in their neighborhood.

If there are no grenades, artillery, or air support to factor in, you're depending on your rifle to reliably finish the job on its own, not just to be a credible threat, so you probably want something more powerful.

>>136646733
This. I got a Ruger American Predator in 6.5 Creedmoor and it's great. The rifle is actually very decent for just under 600USD and the 6.5 is insanely comfy to shoot even though it's just a tad smaller than the 308.

>>136657739


>>136657854

Muh scary black rifle and muh blind patriotism

>>136657822
where's that fag who keeps going on about 5.56 ripping off people's arms and legs?

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Fine, you carry the ammo faggots.

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>>136657532
>based stoner is based

>>136653922
Assuming that is true, it is likely a combination of poor shot placement (happens all the time in combat) and velocity. Traditional 5.56 loads (M855 and M193) rely on fragmentation to achieve devastation wounds. The problem is that fragmentation requires very high velocities, so the effective fragmentation range is limited (~2700 fps requried). Additionally M855 exhibits highly variable fleet yaw which causes unreliable terminal performance due to widly varying angles at which the bullets impacts the target (the bullet wobbles in flight). Newer bullet designs use different mechanisms to enhance wounding and are less sensitive to velocity and resolve the fleet yaw problem that plagues M855.

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>>136656193
fuck i love my garand

>>136658414
Is that a FAMAS?

>>136651943
308 because Wal-Mart

>>136658312
there are actually documented cases of vietnam era 5.56 ripping off limbs.

>>136658765
>not getting your AR a 6.5 Grendel upper and buying bulk russian steel cased at 23 cents/round

>>136658654
how much you pay for that? I want that to be my first rifle

>>136658890
if you want to buy garbage ammo, you may as well just buy garbage .223 for 20 cents/round

>>136659006
http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/m1-garand/

Not many left these days.

>>136658890
ghey. you should have gone to the silk road and bought the weed from indonesia. it was actually depleted uranium rounds

>>136659089
>garbage ammo

Can I shoot you with some?

>>136656182
This guy gets it. 6.5x55 ftw!

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>military making stupid acquisition choices yet again.
We need to move on to high BC barrier blind profiles in the range of 80 to 120gr with a muzzle velocity around 2500 to 3000fps. Brass cased cartridges are the past. We need cased telescopic munitions with LSAT.

Squabbling over existing brass cased cartridges is just further wasting tax payer money.

>>136658890
I have a buddy with a Grendel AR and that thing shoots really well and he did exactly what you did. However, I can buy my .223 or 10mm in Wal-Mart or gun stores if necessary

>>136659006
This one was about $900 or so if I remember. I got a Special Grade from the CMP since I didn't want to wait. They did put a new barrel on it and a new stock. Receiver is from January of 1943.

>>136658808
there are also documented cases of op not being a fag, doesn't mean its true.

>>136659301
Every time they experience with brass-less ammo they get overheating issues

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>>136659334
M193 within its effective fragmentation range will pretty much blow a limb off.
Lrn2 terminal ballistic research

>>136659453
The LSAT design addressed that many years ago. The rotating action of the chamber keeps it cool enough to sustain high cyclical rates without issue. And cased telescoping ammo is not the same as caseless.

>>136659311
I think you will start seeing Grendel ammo in the near future (next few years). Several companies are offering bolt guns chambered for it and I think it has the potential to become a niche caliber instead of complete obscure. The market has managed to find room for 300 BLK.

5.56 fags BTFO
inb4 muh wounds not kills r better

>>136659622
And how durable is that ammo in the field? How far can you drop it on rocks before it's unusable?

>>136652304
>30 dollars per round

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I say we bring these bad boys back. Suit whatever need you have

>>136659230
>cheap steel case
>not garbage

>>136659334
>its impossible for 5.56 to have blown off limbs using a bullet weight/ twist rate combo we now know for a fact often fails to stabilize projectiles
>7n6 is known for blowing off limbs because it destabilizes and yaws on impact
i always forget most /pol/lacks knows nothing about guns

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>>136659891
It's literally just a G36 in a fancy plastic shell.

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>>136653265

Tomahawks are still pretty popular among Army and Marines.

>>136659869
That's just a benefit if you're selling

>>136659758
.300BLK got popular because AAC/Freedom Group marketing.

>>136659852
>And how durable is that ammo in the field?
If you beat brass ammo you can readily make it too dangerous to use, you can readily cause severe setback. Cased telescopic ammo isn't any less durable.

>>136659921
>7n6
gas yourself slavaboo

7.62mm is too weak. They should at least go to 9mm. You get a bigger clip too.

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>>136646367
We need to make this real

>>136645740
45-70 standard issue when?

>>136660176
>knowing the first thing about one russian caliber makes you a slavboo
kys noguns

>>136660043
> They shared some engineering
> They're literally the exact same. Also I don't know what literally means
It's obviously not going to happen but I like the modularity concept

>>136660176
Triggered the NATO anmo cuck

>>136646995
>just fuck up my accuracy senpai

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>>136659921
>>7n6 is known for blowing off limbs because it destabilizes and yaws on impact
There isn't a single grain of truth to this. Due to its mild steel core and mild steel jacket the projectile stays in tact and produces fairly uncomplicated wounds. Yawing off axis is not some magical property, most projectiles will yaw to some degree during penetration, what matters is how early this upset begins to occur.

The 7n6 projectile performs no different from any other comparable mild steel FMJ in various calibers. The M67 load of 7.62x39 shows near identical terminal behavior. In both cases unless bone is struck the wound will be an uncomplicated soft tissue wound.

>>136647814
Figured that out over twelve years ago. Have two nice specimens

>>136650169
545 is objectively better and cheaper

>>136655789
Except 308 is deadly at 500-800m. 5.56 is not

>>136645740
It would be better if they had not went back to .308 (if they do) since lots of .308 in prepper hands is going to be useless when the next generation body armor is developed to protect against it.

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>>136660421
less modular than an M4

>>136654659
The 220 swift is almost the same size as a 7.62 NATO defeating the real point behind using a smaller calibre. The MAIN advantage of 5.56 isn't that it has less recoil it is that its cartridge is smaller meaning a soldier can carry more ammunition on him. The 220 swift being similar in size to the 7.62 NATO makes it mostly redundant.

Beyond that high velocity and high pressure cartridges tend to wear through barrels faster than lower velocity and pressure cartridges. While this isn't a huge deal when it comes to sniper rifles and designated marksman rifles it is a horrible thing for logistics if every soldier is armed with a gun that burns through barrels at a fast rate.

Honestly this doesn't matter much, as long as your doctrine fits the weapons it doesn't really matter what cartridge you use. A modern military could destroy all its assault rifles and replace them with bolt action rifles and while squad level tactics would be cumbersome the overall capabilities of the military wouldn't be very different. The primary weapons of the military are crew served weapons, tanks, artillery, machine guns, mortars, aircraft, etc. As long as these still exist the actual killing power of the military is pretty much the same.

This is why the US and USSR didn't steamroll Germany despite both having semi-automatic rifles when war broke out in 1941 while Germany didn't begin widespread adoption of semi-automatic rifles until 1944.The tanks, aircraft, mortars, machineguns, and artillery of the German military in 1941 were largely similar in capabilities to those of their opponents.

>>136646588
Mah nigga

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>>136660728
>Except 308 is deadly at 500-800m. 5.56 is not
The 77gr SMK on the left was shot at a target at a distance of 1000 yards from an SPR. At impact it had as much energy at the muzzle as some .38spl loads, and expanded in equal diameter.

Don't make stupid statements.

Aika

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>>136660122
>army and marines

Get on the Navy level.

>>136649907
>5.45 aint going through
>the round developed by the Ruskies to primarily pierce armor and fuck you up inside
wew where are we in armor R&D?

>>136660524
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/05/28/poison-pill-indeed-7n6-out-of-a-krinkov/
https://tacticalgunreview.com/surplus-5-45x39mm-7n6-warning-graphic/
a 10 second google search would have saved you from looking like an idiot again. it is made specifically to yaw, causes huge wounds without relying on high velocity for fragmentation. it also has a habit of flying way off course while inside a body and coming out of a different body part. theres a reason they called it the poison bullet. it is by no means magical but extreme yawing causes extreme wounds, something vietnam era 5.56 was known to do.

Can someone explained what happened to adopting the SCAR-L and H?

>>136658042
http://gundata.org/blog/post/223-ballistics-chart/

Here's some data for the .223 which is just 5.56 with less powder. 5.56 will have higher initial values

>credible threat, with good range

read the data and see for yourself, it keeps a really good amount of energy within 100 yards, what the average grunt should be shooting within

>hard to armor against
a small aerodynamic object such as a bullet, that hits someone about point first (a really small area; given you don't miss terribly) concentrates the force of the bullet on a really small area, given basic physics (Pressure=Force/Area) and force corresponds to energy at a given time, a huge amount of force is concentrated into a small area. This is how the principle behind "armor piercing works."

5.56 is perfectly fine if you're within 100 yards of your targets (most of the army aren't snipers and are probably missing vital areas most of the time anyways; it's hard to shoot accurately--probably even harder if others are shooting at you). Most of the time soldiers won't be able to get the near ideal shots which will do anything with more powerful calibers anyways.

>Actually shooting someone is a significant, but rare case. Normally people die in a military gunfight of being suppressed long enough for a shrapnel factory to hold its grand opening in their neighborhood.

You can't be expected to hit someone accurately if they're shooting back at you and you try to stay alive while doing so.

>If there are no grenades, artillery, or air support to factor in, you're depending on your rifle to reliably finish the job on its own, not just to be a credible threat, so you probably want something more powerful.

Air support and artillery are really only used in major battles. Soldiers tend to carry grenades. The reality is that the soldier's job, the majority of the time, is as an occupation force on patrol or just short range self-defense.

HOLY SHIT THIS IS GENIUS IT WILL WEED OUT THE TRANNIES AND THE WOMEN CAUSE THEY CANT CARRY 308 BATTLE RIFLES LIKE MEN CAN HAHAHAHAAH

>>136660776
That was the concept and entire point of the program.

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>>136660269
>tfw nobody takes the bait

>>136661169
No clear advantage over the M4.

The SCAR-H did see some use with special forces.

>>136660122
Why? They are syper easy to riposte. You are trading an arm blow for a knife to the heart.

>>136661226
>sez the kid who has never held an M14

>>136647492
>The primer is the exact same size.
thanks for that important update>>136647492
>Just a tiny bit shorter
308 will work in a short action, '06 requires long action
>>136647492
>The case is about the same diameter
volume is the important metric
30-06 comes into it's own with heavy bullets, 308 doesn't have the case capacity to shoot long heavy bullets long distance. It is true that many spindly armed shooters will defend the 308 and it is a great round, but the truth of the matter is the army downgraded to the 30-06 light(308) for the same reason the FBI abandoned the 10mm for the 40 short and weak.

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>>136661333
I don't see any rails, fagget.

>>136646367
Been saying this from the beginning but realistically a SCAR in .308 with a 20" barrel is the solution.
>>136645740
>armor
aka battlesuits and robotic targets

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>>136661334
don't turn this into /k/ you fucking skinwalker

>>136647565
who'd of thought a squirrel rifle would,t be adequate

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>>136661137
>this clueless retarded incel is just parroting things he doesn't understand

Try reading some actual terminal ballistic research literature. Fackler beat this horse thoroughly decades ago.
7n6 is not magical. Yawing is not magical, most projectiles do it. Heavy .224 OTMs produce large wounds because they break apart and fragment after initiating yaw early into penetration. The 7n6 has this same behavior, except that it does not fragment because of its mild steel core and mild steel jacket. Exactly as I stated, and showed, its terminal behavior is near identical to M67. It isn't special or unique in anyway. Unless these projectiles trike bone they will produce uncomplicated soft tissue wounds.

I know far more about this field than you do, little kid.

>>136658690
You're joking, right?

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>>136661345
>a knife to the heart
>probably carries a spyderco

>>136661169
Same with every program basically. The advantages, If Any, aren't worth the huge cost

>>136661697
No, im pretty sure its a FAMAS too

>>136647671
got it backwards mate, actually they are the same. .223 was around before the 5.56 nato and there is some concern with using 5.54 in older .223.

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>>136645740

>tfw no .300 Win Mag semi-auto

>>136660176
7n6 is goat, faghole.

>>136646733
I'd argue that 7mm or .284 (for you imperial fags) is a more superior choice. Better Ballistic coefficients and heavier projectiles.

>>136649534
5.56 was designed for killing rockchucks at 200 yards. It was adapted by NATO to wound the enemy thus creating logistical problems

>>136645740
>http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/13270/us-army-seeks-a-new-battle-rifle-for-piercing-advanced-body-armor
I hope this puts Colt out of business. They have fucked the civilian market over for decades and have supported anti gun lobbies in the past.

>>136661872
DPS tried and shit the bed.
>Springfield or nothing

>>136661912
We just call it 7 mm.

>>136649609
Yeah there are like 50 powders you can use in the 30-06, very versatile

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>>136646588
Oh yeah. Seven by fifty seven is master race

>>136661787
You win. It's a FAMAS now.

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>>136661912
The SPC project ended that debate years ago.

>>136662002
> It was adapted by NATO to wound the enemy thus creating logistical problems
Stop parroting this stupid fudd myth. There isn't a grain of truth to it. 5.56 was adopted because of the the SALVO project. High volumes of fire ultimately win fire fights, thats why intermediate cartridges as a whole came to be a thing today. No one ever dreamed of inflicting non lethal injuries as a means of annoyance. Even implying this shows a disgusting ignorance of human physiology.

>>136654441
Hollow points are ineffective against armor.

>>136662149
I love my 7x57 Mauser.

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>>136662002
>>136661912
>>136661897
>>136661872
>>136661792
>not 7.92x57
Degenerates

>>136662002
They would be fine for killing if the military didn't cuck themselves out of hollow point ammo.

>>136645740
AR10 right don't we have this already in a varient of the m16

>>136645740
/k/

>>136658278
Go fuck off to another country

>>136661601
nobody is making the claim that 7n6 is magical or that yawing is exclusive to it, nigger. feel free to post some actual research instead of beating yourself off.

>>136656988
>I would tell you to kill yourself. But you would probably use a 223 and live.
kek

>>136662268
Wait i thought we were talking high powered bolt action rifles?

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>>136661069

It technically becomes a boarding axe as soon as it's over open water.

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>>136662474
>AR pattern rifles are public domain now
We're making new arms contracts we got late stage capitalism to run over here.

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>>136662381
We do use OTMs. Mk 262 mod 0, mod 1. There are other loads which are far less common, but ultimately they're not used because barrier performance is more important to them than volume of soft tissue damage.
We need projectiles that can penetrate laminated autoglass without heavily deflecting and deforming. They need to be able to smash through masonry, a load bearing vest loaded with steel AK magazines. Generally speaking small caliber OTMs aren't good at that.

>>136662598
>I don't know who Dr. Martin Fackler is
>plz stop making me feel stupid

Educate yourself, little kid. You'll never know more about terminal ballistic research than me.

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I want a meme rifle. A rifle that shoots extremely tiny bullets

>>136658808
how many rounds did it take to rip off limbs. you can fall a tree if you shoot it enough times

>>136662740
>i claim superiority
>i now dont have to provide evidence for my claims
sounds about right

>>136662785
P90

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>>136657532
>Shoot two 30 round magazines out of an AR with even half way decent ammo and you build up enough residue to start having feeding problems.

>>136662785

That would be an AR, shooting 223.

Be sure to have cleaning kit, and know how to apply SPORTS under duress.

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>>136662785
here you go sport

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>>136662785
How tiny we talking?

>>136660269
>bigger clip
fucking leaf

>>136663034
Kek

>>136662823
Degenerate, you have been reported to the correctional department of language.

The correct statement is to fell a tree, not fall. This is your first strike. Next time you will be gassed with the other degenerates.

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>>136662823
See: >>136659622
That xray is from the wound in pic related.
It is a single round of M193 to the upper leg. The projectile displayed early upset and fragmented very early into penetration.

This is what fragmenting projectiles do inside of their effective frag range.

>>136662872
The fact that you're still posting is completely embarrassing. You're just showing beyond all doubt that you have no idea who the very father of modern terminal ballistic research is. I posted a section of his work directly out of a peer reviewed medical journal. I name dropped him twice. I've been posting charts straight from the IWBA.

It is you who hasn't ever done any research. You're just some stupid faggot kid.

>>136660563
Yep. Sad there are still people who don't recognize the superior design. You can be ringing steel at 800-1000m for under a grand.

>>136659891
That's one weird looking fish

>>136660814
>The 220 swift is almost the same size as a 7.62 NATO
don't you mean 5.45 Nato, they are .001 difference. although 220 swift is more powerful. those are 22 cal, 308 is 30 cal. big difference

>>136646367
>wood
>what is warping

>>136663000
checked

>>136663251
>i have still yet to post an actual link to actual research backing my claims

>>136663270
Very effective

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Is the HCAR a meme rifle?

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>>136663000
the smallest possible bullet as a semi auto

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>>136663251
Nice knee scrape

>>136663497
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2mm_Kolibri
>2mm

it amazes me how people know so much about firearms and munitions. I have a dozen or so firearms and i go pew pew at the range so i can kill any wandering nigger that gets too close.

i was raised shooting guns but i really don't know shit about the details. I know i can probably kill a nigger with either one of my small caliber (22) handguns.

>>136661912
Hey leaf....284 is 6.5, but your right about 7mm, the old mauser is slightly better than the new magical 7mm-08

I don't care what the rifle looks like, just as long as it has a 30 caliber magazine clip that I can empty in half a second, ok?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJmFEv6BHM0

>>136661912
my bad...6.5 is .264

>>136663740
Read a book.

>>136663673
was more alone the lines looking for a rifle with an extremely small caliber that's semi auto. Just a total meme gun.

>>136663896
Mosin Nagant.

>>136655655
top kek and checked brotha

>>136663497
.17

>>136663889

I'm reading Plato's Republic right now, idk how that's supposed to help me kill niggers.

>>136646367
>FAL
The 50s have come and gone FALfag

>>136664075
reading might scare em to death

>>136664048
.17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire (4.5×27mmR)

Replacing the FN FAL with plastic bullpup rifles was a fucking stupid idea. Way to go, NATO.

>>136649279
Lol

>>136663478
yes

>>136664575

That's to bad. I liked the idea of a modernized BAR.

>>136664448
That had nothing to do with NATO.

>>136659891
Why did you post a fish?

>>136645740
HOW THE FUCK DOES THIS EVEN REMOTELY RELATE TO /POL/?

DO YOUR GOD DAMN JOB MODS!

FFS

>>136664962
I agree! I want to look at more superior black penises! HOW CAN I EVEN COMPETE?

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>>136664962
>the government making yet another procurement misstep isn't political
>accountability in spending isn't political
Are you actually retarded?

>>136661070
I remember on /k/ seeing some new Russian body armor that was some new blend of titanium alloy, taking 10 rounds of 7.62×54mmR from a Dragunov at 100m and still maintaining its integrity.
Shit wasn't heavy either.
Out classes any level 4 stuff we have here currently.

>>136660176

eat a cock natard

>>136666076
>have 1/10th the budget
>have better gear
the fuck
seize the means of war production when

>>136660524
posting doctor martin fucker's u.s propaganda

>"only our rifle rounds are good goyim"

>"you can trust me" " i'm your greatest ally"

>"now charge those arabs with their ineffective rifle rounds" FOR Israel !!!!!!

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>>136666076
Do you have an actual source for that? That means a whole lot of nothing unless the actual 7.62x54r load is known.
There are NIJ LIII plates on the market that can stop .338 Lap Mag.

>>136666319
You've got to be an inbred retard to think anything Fackler ever did was propaganda. He was extremely critical of 5.56's shortcomings.
Don't pretend like you know anything about this topic. You don't. Fackler himself, the IWBA, even his successor Roberts have all been incredibly forthcoming in highlighting ares that various .224 projectiles perform poorly.

>>136662535
Mmm the salt

>>136661601
doctor martin has his cock lodged firmly in your ass i see

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db8XSKi7U7I

>>136645740
Just use the 6.5mm creedmoor.

Very similar ballistics, slighly lighter so more can be carried, cheaper to manufacture, and more accuracy at extreme ranges.

>>136666703
You just posted a video that does nothing other than recreate gel tests done by others, including Fackler.

You're legitimately retarded.

>>136666076
That's literally level IV tier.

>>136666251
Not saying the USA doesn't have an alloy equivalent, the Army was looking into adding a new (2011) Ti-alloy type breaker plates to the M1A3 Abrams series. Had insane protection enhancements compered to the steel fronts on the A1 and A2's.

Also, Russia focuses a majority of their military budget into their ground forces.
Russia doesn't have 11 nuclear carriers + another 13 Marine mini-carriers + all that other naval stuff + the two largest air-forces on the planet to fund.

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>>136653807
55gr m193 out of a 16+ inch barrel

New Military standard M855A1 grey tips

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>>136645740
Why can't we all just adopt 3.5" slugs, full body level IV+ plate mail, and batter each other with said slugs pump actions?

>>136666830


>hurr durr

>he doesn't like 5.56 he must be retarded

>>136667122
>try to make a point
>utterly fail
>embarrass yourself
>shitpost some petty nonsense in a weak attempt to save face.

You're not doing yourself any favors here.

>>136666649
>short barrel carbines

I never understood why the shorter barrel lengths became standard. The whole point of the 5.56 was a small but lightning fast round, you're firing a small projectile so it needs to be moving as fast as possible. Hydro static shock is amazing shit, and once you drop right below a certain limit it stops happening. The ar platform was designed for a long barrel for a reason.

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>>136666649
>>136666898
Think this is what he saw.
At least it's the only thing in my files that matches the description.

>>136651943
It'll either be Grendel or 26 nosler.

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>>136645740
It's about fucking time, 5.56 is a meme

Can someone give me the basic getalt on 308 vs 30-06?

>>136666898
>>136666649
>>136667233
PS: That's 10 hits (two in the same spot), at 10 meters, with the SVD; without the Ti-alloy plate being busted.

>>136667389
308 = shorter case 30-06
Same projectile mass but less powder on 308

>>136667389
Same size bullet in different cartridge. .308, 30-06, 300win mag all use the same bullet diameter

>>136645740

fucking why?

308 is a bitch to lug around in comparable amounts to 556

>>136667217
>I never understood why the shorter barrel lengths became standard.
Shorter barrel carbines were decided to be more fitting for use around vehicles and urban environments.

> Hydro static shock is
Its one of the most misused terms in all of the firearm industry, and still has no peer reviewed literature that validates its existence as a wounding mechanism is soft tissue.
Remote wounding has never been observed to happen in vets, even WWII vets who sustained GSW from full length rifle cartridges. People shot in the torso did not have bleeding brains.

Velocity and energy aren't magic quantities. Energy is simply the potential to do work. A projectile's given characteristics determine the range of velocities it will perform ideally and display early upset in.

>>136667389
>>136667367
See pic attached, the two rounds left of the shotgun shell are .308(shorter) and 300 win mag(longer). They have the same size bullet but the cartridge is different

>>136661204
>Most of the time soldiers won't be able to get the near ideal shots which will do anything with more powerful calibers anyways.
You seem to have this backwards. With more powerful rounds, shot placement matters less.

With 5.56, you're basically counting on poking a hole being enough. If you hit the head or heart, great, that's a near-instant kill. If you hit a lung or the liver or a major artery, that's a fast bleed-out. A good hit on a major bone is disabling. But there's a lot of the body where in the short term, it won't affect them much. They might not notice it right away, and when they do, they can still fight. They might have time to realize they're going to die and choose to sacrifice themselves.

With .308, you're up into the big-game hunting rounds. You can take that hunting moose, and nobody will give you grief about the risk of it being inhumane or wasteful. You're still poking a hole, but now you're also dumping a lot of energy, like setting off a small bomb inside the target. So now any torso hit stands a good chance of acting like a knockout punch. Blood vessels split from the impact without a direct hit, so limb hits are more likely to mean a fast bleed-out. Bone hits make shrapnel that cuts arteries. Placement still matters, but it's all stepped up a tier. The target areas to achieve a certain effect grow.

With .50 BMG, there's several times more kinetic energy, you start getting really weird shit happening sometimes, like you hit a guy in the foot and he instantly drops dead with a popped artery in his brain. Placement barely matters, as long as you're not grazing, and lots of cover turns out to only be concealment.

Nobody laughs off a hit with 5.56, and it's certainly capable of fast kills with good placement, but it's not a reliable way to stop someone shooting back by putting one bullet in them wherever you can land it.

>>136662268
6.8 SPC, the round so nice, they had to make it twice! It's too bad the new round still has issues. I'm assuming their intermediate cartridge will end up being a 6.5mm of some kind in the next 15 years or so.

>>136667496
Thats nothing special if it was only hit with mild steel ball rounds.
NIJ LIII rifle plates have to be able to stop comparable .308 ball.

>>136667847
Blame Remington.
The essentially made a 6.8 equivalents of .223 SAAMI spec, then 5.56 NATO.

>>136667688
>Velocity and energy aren't magic quantities. Energy is simply the potential to do work. A projectile's given characteristics determine the range of velocities it will perform ideally and display early upset in.

All hydrostatic shock refers to, is when a round is moving fast enough, it dumps its energy very quickly into the target. A slower round with equal energy conserves energy longer after impact, increases the chances of a pass through. And even if both rounds pass through, more energy would still be dumped into the target using the smaller faster round.

>>136645740
Retarded Bureaucracy in action. All you had to do was switch out the underperforaming 5.56 with a 25-45 sharps round.

Literally identical to 5.56 in every way other than being necked up to seat a .25 cal bullet instead of the .223 bullet. Gives you double the grain weight and identical ballistics and allows you to fit a larger penetrating rod with more mass behind it for punching body armor without having to switch anything on your standard issue rifle other than the barrel getting swapped out. Recoil is almost identical as well so you dont have to retrain your soldiers to compensate for the larger recoil of a .308 throwing off their aim nor do you have to add several pounds to the new rifle spend money on a new build from scratch .308 rifle or weigh your soldiers down with .308 ammo which twice the weight per round.

goddamn these people are stupid and this is intentional corruption by the way. They are doing this to give the arms industry billions more in revenue for making a whole new .308 rifle and rolling out huge production runs of more expensive .308 ammo.

>>136667367
>5.56 a meme
Top kek, you cant just go around on the internet calling everything a meme

>>136668216
Don't go making up your own definitions for things, these terms have specific meanings. Hydrostatic shock is the force purportedly responsible for remote wounding in Ballistic Pressure Wave Theory.
It is remote wounding. It is not anything else. This has never been demonstrated to happen in any lab setting. There is no peer reviewed research that confirms it, though plenty of people like Michael Courtney have tried over the years.

What you are poorly describing is merely temporary cavity stretch. These two things are not even remotely similar. You are misusing the term.

>>136668216
That sounds horribly backward. What YouTube vid did you learn all about physics on?

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>>136668492
Pic related.

This shows the difference between the temporary cavity caused by the projectile displacing tissue, and the pressure wave which actually precedes the projectile. They are not the same thing and cannot be mistaken as such.

>>136668492
>describing is merely temporary cavity stretch.
This. People always get this shit confused. Thanks for the clarification anon.

>>136663336
>don't you mean 5.45 Nato, they are .001 difference.
Look at the size of the actual cartridge. The 220 swift has a massive case making the overall cartridge similar in size.
>although 220 swift is more powerful. those are 22 cal, 308 is 30 cal. big difference
In terms of muzzle energy (and thus recoil) the 220 swift falls between the 5.56 and 7.62 but in terms of chamber pressure and muzzle velocity the 220 swift greatly surpasses both the 5.56 and 7.62 which leads to problems with the barrel of such guns wearing out quickly.

Ultimately cartridge doesn't matter, if I had to choose between assault rifle (5.56, 5.45, 5.8, 7.62x39), battle rifle (7.62x51, 7.62x54R), or intermediate (6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC) cartridge ignoring existing logistics, equipment, and funding I would probably choose battle rifle cartridges simply because it would better cultivate a culture of marksmanship within the military by breeding the idea that every shot counts. However since the military is already equipped with 5.56 for its basic rifles I see no real reason to change, sure fire fights in Afghanistan or in deserts in Iraq or Syria are longer range engagements than in cities, but modern infantry squads are already mechanized and include heavy suppressive fire support in the form of machine guns. Any further deficiencies could be made up for with designated marksmen, although honestly if the situation is that bad I would say call in artillery or air support, fall back, or mount up and close the gap.

tl;dr doctrine is more important than equipment, if range was such a huge fucking issue we should just equip all of our soldiers with rifles chambered in .338 Lapua or .50 BMG

>>136659301
this ammunition type looks awesome, im just worried about the jump, is it like a revolver where it has to go through a cone? is there a chamber? will the case front meet the start of the barrel immediately? thats a tight fit

>>136668327
That's a meme
>>136657532
You are correct. Gas impingement is shit, are there any viable piston .308s out there? The only thing I can think of it's a PTR, that's roller lock design though

>>136668492
Fine, cavity stretch.
You know that most of the time that's what is meant. Words change.
Would you rather get hit by a 45-70 or .308? They are pretty close in terms of energy. One's going to cause a lot more tissue damage.

>>136645740
Soon it will be .300 Blackout!! Best Round EVAR!!

>>136646841
This

>>136668815
>.50BMG
less is more tho breh.

>>136669138
Kek. Stop it.

File: IMG_20170614_174206_784.jpg (1MB, 3264x1836px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 3264x1836px

>>136669138
Lel that's pretty funny anon

>>136669103
>You know that most of the time that's what is meant. Words change.
No, these words haven't changed at all. They have very specific and distinct technical meanings. If you use them interchangeably you are making a mistake out of gross ignorance.

>. One's going to cause a lot more tissue damage.
That depends entirely on the given projectile. M80 ball can penetrate over 12 inches of flesh without upsetting. A soft cast lead .45-70 load can expand to over .7 in diameter. In this case the .45-70 projectile is going to destroy a massively higher volume of tissue.


>>136669012
Every chamber has a leade, there is always a point where a projectile is going to be partly unsupported until it engraves on the rifling.
There are a half dozen publicly available briefs regarding the LSAT program on dtic.mil.

>>136667567
>>136667594
In terms of range, energy on hit, velocity, etc?

>>136663478
Fuck no. That bitch is awesome.

>>136649657
>>136661792
In my .308 mauser I shoot alot of 7.62 safely, and I've never had a single problem.
I have heard from a gunsmith that 308 will damage the action in a 7.62 rifle.
Have you two tried 308 in a 7.62?

>>136663982
Moist nuggets,baby