A friendly reminder to everyone on /pol/ that communism is the

>>136280505
A FUCKING BREAD LINE

>>136280505
People never "wake up", that's not a thing, the people just go with what the (((media))) says.

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Youve had control of education and the media for 50 years and you could still only sell your terrible idea to a few tin pot south American countries

>>136280505
>Read the manifesto and enlighten yourselves.
I have, it's shit.

Sorry op. I tried eating feces once. My communist friends said it was "great" and much better than a decadent, capitalist "quarter pounder with cheese".
But im weak op. Although i know feces is much better than a capitalist cheesburger, i... i just cant do it.
Im weak.
Im too inferior to realize that fecal matter is the best food.
Just like im to inferior to realize that communism is the best system...
Sorry op, im just not worthy of you..,

>>136280928
Maybe you haven't studied it enough. The capitalisic lies try to stray you away from the truth

>communism is spreading everywhere haha except for all those former communist countries that aren't communist anymore because it sucks but thats okay haha that wasnt real communism anyways

>>136281064
Real Communists would never enforce someone to eat feces. Please for your mental enlightment discard the national socialistic ideology from your mind after all its not even true socialism

>>136280505
fascism just hasn't been tried yet.

>>136281390
When capitalism departs, feces is all thats left...
If you were a princeton graduate like me youd realize that...

>>136281519
It was tried by that unethical Hitler. Do not support him and his low minded ideology

>>136280505
Marxism is a useful tool to analyze problems and how capitilsm works but has been proven to be utterly worthless as a way of organizing. Russia was a break basket before communism and by the 80/90's was importing food to survive. It fails because it at its roots it ide-incentivizes work, shackles itself to a central ideology and destroys the natural impulse to better yourself and get ahead in life. Its poison but seductive poison.

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>>136280505
RED pill.

think about it.

better red than cuck

>>136281597
O really? I have never heard of a communist country leaving its people to eat feces. Sorry anon Nazism has brainwashed you to ridicule the most effective system of them all ''communism''. I am sorry of you anon but there is still a chance for you to get saved

Mmm, this brings me back to the breadlines... Bad times.

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>>136281908
>Russia was a break basket before communism

??????????????

> it ide-incentivizes work, shackles itself to a central ideology and destroys the natural impulse to better yourself and get ahead in life.

false. access to education and the glorification of work by socialist propaganda makes the work better and the people better

>>136281136
>Maybe you haven't studied it enough
It was assigned reading for a class I took. It's still shit.

>The capitalisic lies try to stray you away from the truth
Yeah, that's it. Not the mountains of historical evidence from both Western and Russian sources that say it's absolute garbage. It's just lies that some guy in a top hat smoking a cigar told me. Are you really that stupid? Wait, you probably are and will respond with "not real communism."

>>136282250
No, they just used us as cheap labour under the threat of having you and your entire family deported to labour camps or worse. Fuck you, and fuck your ideology, you killed uncountable millions, and ruined so many countries!

>>136282250
It is really education if you call it propaganda?

>work better and the people better
Yeah, that why the Hungarians revolted the first chance they got.

>>136282331
>It was assigned reading for a class
fucking retard, research by yourself, stop getting spoon-fed by your government and try to read more

>>136280505
more westerns turn to communism (in their teens)
more communist countries turn to capitalism

it's just a phase edgy teens have to go through, and old guys in communists countries regret

>>136282451
These larping burgeois "communists" don't realise they will be the first to hang.

>>136282451
university is free in a communist system.

in a capitalist system, education isn't even worth it if you want to live comfortably

>>136282528
my family regrets the fall of the soviet union. So is my maths teacher. And I bet many more

>>136282517
>fucking retard, research by yourself,
I also read it again after college. I can still say it's shit, and undeniable failure that is bought into by misguided youth looking to break something. Think for yourself.

>stop getting spoon-fed by your government and try to read more
The professor was a self admitted Marxist you stupid cunt.

>>136282639
>university is free in a communist system
I guess you do not come from any post-commie country. It was free only if you were the child of party members a.k.a. more equal than the rest equal people.

>>136282250
I know your larping but when Stalin collectivized the farms and eliminated the Kulaks, Russian productivity plummeted. People would rather shoot their two cows or horse and burn the grain than have the government seize it. Also it turns out not everyone liked been confined to a farm harvesting wheat. Lack of land reform killed Russia made it necessary for the landlord, large farmer class to be liquidated.

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>>136280505
Modern commies are just cucks who LARP with red stars n' shit.

>>136282639
>university is free in a communist system.
Nothing is "free." Someone always has to foot the bill somehow.

>education isn't even worth it if you want to live comfortably
Well, sometimes you have to make sacrifices to gain success, who would have thought of that?

>>136282794
no

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>>136282954
Here's a quick redpill on communism
>the LTV
The LTV is one of the cornerstones of Marxist economic thought, upon which rests the claim that porky will continually steal more and more wages from the working class, and communist revolution is "inevitable". One requirement for the LTV to be true is that machines can't produce more than they cost--silly, right!?!? Marx originally justified this with the ludicrous hypothesis (keep in mind, Marx NEVER went into the real world to collect data and base his theories upon, but rather all work in Marxist economics has been that of a religious apologist) that machines and physical captal depreciate in value equal to the amount of value they produce. Do I need to write any more formalities? The LTV is dead wrong.

>post scarcity
Communism, the "ideal" society, is a post-scarcity society, which is why everyone can seemingly work as little as they want and get as much free shit as they "need", according to commies. Unfortunately, post-scarcity is a priori impossible because there are a finite amount of resources and humans will always compete for them.

>From each according to the government, to each according to the government
Communists tout that their ideal system is highly democratic, and indeed, the commie system of production (if it were possible--see ">post scarcity") would be essentially a democracy, one person one vote, with perhaps some elected representatives with more power. This of course is a perfect "tragedy of the commons" scenario--nobody has any personal responsibility for their vote, and everybody wants MORE. It is hard to imagine a situation like this ending any other way than what's happening in Italy, Greece, Portugal, and Spain, who perhaps have the most democratically-controlled economies on earth.

>western countries tend to become more degenerate and self-destructive over time
>I wonder why communism is also on the rise

Really jogs the nog.

>>136282954
>>136282910
>>136282877
>>136283122
Look at those individuals blinded by capitalism trying to defend it so hard. It actually breaks my heart

>>136283087
Nice argument. The cost was between 65 and 220 lev if I recall correctly. Which was a lot back then.

>>136282639
Free education wasn't put in place by communists. At the end of day someone still has to pay for it. Something like 10-20 % percent of people are wealth generators. In Europe that bracket are highly taxed and pay for the majority of the social state. You can either strip back the state and let the wealth be generated or use this retarded ideology to suck any drive and creativity away from the people. Capitalist societies took what worked with Marxism ideology and social movements and reformed. Thats what makes it such a powerful way or organizing a society.

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>>136283175
I didn't defend capitalism. I destroyed communism, and all you can do is sit there and spam non-arguments

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>>136281691
Nazism is not fascism. NatSoc and Mussolini's fascism are different.

Leftists are just butthurt because Hitler opposed globalist leftism (AKA Marxism, Bolshevism).

Marxism is a hollow, materialistic ideology that doesn't take culture, race, or national differences into account; and actively tries to destroy culture to make everybody conform to Marx's autistic, narrow-minded vision.

NatSoc gives the people what they want, gibs, but also private property, meritocracy, high HDI/GDP, and national/cultural sovereignty. Commies just want to turn the world into a giant nigger favela and support open borders.

"I am willing to risk my live to jump through barbed wire and sniper posts to escape capitalism"
Said no one ever.

>>136283372
Communism is inevitable it cannot be destroyed at least not by some people who post 24/7 on a niche internet forum.

>>136281908
>Marxism is a useful tool to analyze problems and how capitilsm works but has been proven to be utterly worthless as a way of organizing.

Marx said next to nothing about how to organize. He said "I do not write recipes for the kitchens of the future". His few tips were very general - that workers should organize themselves, and that if workers took over, governments would not immediately disappear (Bakunin wanted to destroy all states immediately).

>>136283175
>can't refute
>"hurr, you're just BLINDED by le capitalism!"

You sound like a religious zealot.

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>>136283175
>Look at those individuals blinded by capitalism trying to defend it so hard.
Nice argument. Are we the blind, or is it you for defending communism? Capitalism isn't perfect, but communism has proven to suck wind and fail over and over again. But, because of subversion from the Soviets we have to deal with faggots like you.

I look forward to the day you start your revolution and reality kicks you in the dick.

>>136283575
>Communism is inevitable
It's it's collapse inevitable too?

>>136283575
It's only close to viable because leftists and globalist cucks keep importing retarded 3rd-world niggers into the west, who then vote for leftist parties.

80% of Muslims in the UK vote Labor, etc.

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>>136283575
>communism is inevitable
that might be true if the LTV were true. The LTV is bullshit, machines produce more value than they cost. There, I just debunked your entire political ideology.

>>136283830
>>136283575
Also, if Marxism ever re-gains power in the West, it won't be "good" in any way.

Think Zimbabwe, Brazil, etc.

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what if an alien civilisation comes into contact with us and they are communist?

>>136283981
Then we die defending freedom against an overwhelming invader.

>>136282451
>the Hungarians revolted

The Hungarians created a communist government themselves after World War I. It was put down by a foreign invasion. A foreign invasion is what put down communism in Hungary, for a time.

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>>136283981
>what if an alien civilisation comes into contact with us and they are communist?
They'll probably ask if we have any food to spare.

>>136283575
>Communism is inevitable
proofs?

>>136280505
>Read the manifeso and enlighten yourselves.
>dialectical materialism lol
It's pretty shit t b h mate. It might have rang true if I was a 19th century peasant, but capitalism has been good to me. Learn to play the game.

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>>136284097
>>136283981
what if an alien civilization comes into contact with us and they are skeletors XD?

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>>136283575

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>>136283981
What if the Soviet Union existed, and whites still controlled 80% of the globe via imperialism?

You could be getting tons of gibs extracted from niggers right now, yet the commies that you worship threw that all away to serve the power-grabs of kike bureaucrats in the Kremlin.

>>136284259
Then we die defending freedom against an overwhelmingly spooky invader.

>>136280505
What experience do you have with farming and factory work, comrade?

>>136284184
kek

>>136284097
maybe they just want to promote it, why would they want to kill us? I mean we are degenerates but still.

>>136280505
SEIZE

>>136284357
>maybe they just want to promote it, why would they want to kill us? I mean we are degenerates but still.
Since when do communists not kill? Seems to be the only thing communists are good at.

>>136284181
Hungarians rebelled again in the 1950s because they realized communism was shit, and Stalin was supressing their national identity.

So Stalin sent-in waves of tanks to start killing civillians. That's where the term "tankie" comes from.

Also, there was a Hungarian anon on /pol/ recently who posted a bunch of pictures of how the communist regime destroyed beautiful landmarks for the sake of quelling nationalism,and replacing them with soulless, modernist crap.

>>136284181
Wrong revolution, dumbass.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956

>>136284181
a foreign invasion made possible by the fact that no Hungarian wanted Bela "the eternal Jew" Kohn in charge

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>>136284394
...them by the pussy

>>136281691
hitler tried national socialism

>>136282864
>Stalin collectivized the farms and eliminated the Kulaks, Russian productivity plummeted

Yaa, things became so much worse under Stalin that Russia defeated an invasion by the rest of continental Europe, liberated central Europe, exploded an atomic bomb, and launched a satellite four years after Stalin died.

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>>136280505
I like how OP was born 89 years ago and wants to be a communist hero

shes prolly really ugly...

>>136284693
see >>136283122
(unless you're an economic illiterate)

>>136280505
Can confirm. The history of civilization is a history of class struggle. Let us together move beyond the realm of necessity to the realm of freedom.

>>136284693
>liberated central Europe
See >>136284506

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>>136280505

>>136284693
>Russia defeated an invasion by the rest of continental Europe
Not alone.
>liberated central Europe
"Liberated."
>exploded an atomic bomb
Stole the plans from the US.
>launched a satellite four years after Stalin died
As in, with the captured German scientists' expertise.
USSR was utter shit at everything.

>>136280505
>we want complete control of you goy now stand in your bread line like cattle and work 16 hours every day. Good goy

>>136284894
Also, the Russian rocket program had way more failures, and cosmonauts often got exploded before they ever left the atmosphere. Russian rockets were shitty.

>>136284825
>The history of civilization is a history of class struggle
>according to Marx
>whom we all know to be reliable historian and economist
kek. You're like Ayn Randlet worshippers who take Atlas Shrugged as fact.

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>>136284894
^it thinks Russia is larger than the USA...^

it is stupid

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>>136280505
>starving and being worked to death by Jews is the ultimate redpill

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>>136285086
wow that's a cool meme XD
can I copy it?!?!?!

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communism is jewish.

and it will kill you.

>>136284890
I swear i am not a jew

>>136280746

Then don't eat bread faggot. Drink water and mass produced indoor vegetables.

>>136280505
That's why communism consistently fails.

>>136285086
>be Soviet Union
>have all of Russia and Romania's oil
>have stolen Nazi aeronautics tech
>have virtual limitless slave labor
>biggest country to ever exist
>still be a massive fuck-up

Such is gommunism.

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>>136285175
Americans have always allowed Russians to try and catch up^

>>136284693
They sure did. But if Trotsky or some else had been in charge. WWII would have started in 1930 and Tukhachevsky would have stomped them. He came up with shit Zhukov put in place because the Germans were ath the gates of Moscow.

The Russians won despite Stalin not because. They lost millions because Stalin was a fanatical Bolshevik that murdered all the competent people that weren't total lickspittles

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>>136285076

>>136283575
Mongolian life-support diagram forums have nothing to do with communism's perpetual collapse. Communism is quite capable of collapsing on its own. National Socialism has a better chance of working, because it's only been attempted once and every Jew on the planet attacked it.

But as per usual
>my utterly perfect strain of communism has never been tried before!

>>136285267
>mass produced indoor vegetables.
cant do that in a commie dictatorship

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>>136283175
>i deserve the returns from the investments I never made
>entrepreneurship is exploitation
>an economy without the measurement of value is possible
brainlet

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>>136285252

a jew would never lie.

>>136280505
>communism
>redpill
Yeah no, fuck off.

>>136285243
Should also mention that Jews led a communist civil war in Germany in 1919, and it was funded by the Bolsheviks in Russia.

Also, Trotsky literally led an army on trains to invade Germany at that time, but they got stopped by the Polish military.

So basically, the Soviet Union invaded Germany first. Hitler had a casus belli.

>>136280505
How's Venezuela working out?

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>>136285699

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>>136280505

>>136285584
Are you implying something anon?

>>136285597
>Also, Trotsky literally led an army on trains to invade Germany at that time, but they got stopped by the Polish military.
lol what the fuck? The Soviets wanted to invade Germany after Poland, but they had no plan to do it and the Battle of Warsaw erased any possibility of it happening

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>>136285410
Capitalism

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>>136285322
^think Russians and communism is kewl^

^find out it is not^

^immediately understand i'm a dumbfuck^

>>136282954
>wages vs productivity debunked

This chart is insane.

CPI looks at the prices of 211 varying consumer items from 1973 to 2013, and the CPI is based on the change in prices.

IPD tracks nothing from 1973 to 2013. Every year what is tracked changes, along with the number.

It is easy to track how much a six-pack of Budweiser, a pound of potatoes, a 20 oz. box of Tide detergent etc. is priced through those years.

If you do that, it's apparent that adjusted for inflation, American workers make less per hour than they did in the early 1970s.

With IPD, you don't track what a six pack of Budweiser etc. costs, you change what you track every year and draw whatever chart you want.

>>136285898
>>136285882
>>136285995
see >>136283122

>>136285995
>muh CPI
The CPI only takes into account material goods. Workers don't just produce consumer products, they also produce goods and services which are bought by businesses and are thus not represented in the consumer price index.

>>136286867
>The CPI only takes into account consumer*** goods

>>136280505
Filthy desecrator of the legacy of the 50s.
Remove that flag from your future posts.

Communists in the past were raging nationalists who used an ideology to free themselves from the shackles of either colonialism in one set of cases, or the international Jew in the other one.

True communists today are nationalists and fascists who desire nothing less than the means of production being returned to the nation which fought to call its country 'home'

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>>136287027
see >>136283122

>>136283122
>One requirement for the LTV to be true is that machines can't produce more than they cost--silly, right!?!? Marx originally justified this with the ludicrous hypothesis (keep in mind, Marx NEVER went into the real world to collect data

Of course a machine by itself can't produce more than it costs by itself. If you buy a snow plow and truck, a man driving the snow plow and truck can make more money than the snow plow and truck. But you need the man to drive the truck. The snow plow is not going to plow snow on its own. You seem to misunderstand what Marx said.

Also you say "the LTV is one of the cornerstones of Marxist economic thought". The LTV was the cornerstone of ALL Marxist economic thought prior to Marx. People slap the "Marxist" label on LTV but Adam Smith, Ricardo, Say etc. based value on LTV.

There were no serious theories other than LTV prior to Marx writing "A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy". After that, some people started knocking LTV.

LTV can not be knocked down by one strawman argument with the words "silly, right?" at the end of it.

>>136287291
Let me speak to you as someone with experience with people from the lower management, working intelligence and highly skilled labor, and peacekeeping forces of a Communist government:
they are all turning fascist now;
they compare their national achievements not by monetarily expressed GDP, but by living standard - which in my country of origin used to be in the World top 10 in the 1960s - the early post-peak Communist party rule;
they saw the industrial decline of the new democratic era;
all the adds in TV, radio, and the Internet, now made available to civilians, are ABSOLUTE DEGENERACY to them

>>136286867
>>136285995
not to mention the BLS uses IPD in their measure of productivity, so you would be using two different deflators

>>136287831
>Of course a machine by itself can't produce more than it costs by itself. If you buy a snow plow and truck, a man driving the snow plow and truck can make more money than the snow plow and truck.
No, you're the one who misunderstands Marx: he claims that "The maximum loss of value that they [machines] can suffer in the process, is plainly limited by the amount of the original value with which they came into the process, or in other words, by the labor-time necessary for their production. However useful a given kind of raw material, or a machine, or other means of production may be, though it may cost £150 – yet it cannot, under any circumstances, add to the value of the product more than £150."

This is plainly ridiculous, as machines do ADD value, more rightfully than the humans that work to maintain them.

>>136280505
I don't think communism would really work. I'd love for it to as it would be a perfect utopian society but I highly doubt it would work when put into practice.

>>136283122
>>136287831
Also, after Marx saw what his work was used for, he himself distanced himself from what became known as "Marxism".

Marx did "go out into the field" to collect data. His work was based on all the available official economic reports and on raw data published in the press. Furthermore, he delved into all that was known of societies prior to the one of his day in the British museums and archives - the greatest such institutions of the time.

His work is not an ideology by itself - it is a description of how capital works. The international Jew and speculators hate him for it

>>136288686
>His work is not an ideology by itself - it is a description of how capital works
It is a biased description
It is a highly ideological description, and it doesn't fit the facts

>His work was based on all the available official economic reports and on raw data published in the press
source? Anyway it probably isn't truly based on that because whenever he uses numerical examples he pulls them out of his ass.

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>>136280505
>Every western country becomes more and more tended to communism every year
What are you talking about? The world is becoming more capitalistic, not less. Even the last two communist nations on Earth are gradually becoming more capitalist.

>>136288673
>I don't really think (x utopian scheme) would work
>I wish it did because then it would be utopia though

hmmmm....

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>>136283981
They are aliens, and thus their psychology and biology would be different.

What we DO know is that robots are capitalist.
>>136265610

>>136280505
How about you look at history and enlighten YOURself.

>>136280505
>Stealing everything people worked hard for is the ultimate redpill
Yeah and I'm Adam Sandler

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>>136289128
>libertarian
Your shitty system failed so bad in the US that they had to draft a new constitution

>>136280505
How come previously communist countries like Poland, Russia, Latvia are the most nationalistic in Europe? What is up with that huh?

>>136289417
>my shitty system
>implying I don't support the US Constitution over the AoC

anyway keep in mind this is coming from the meme ideology that's designed to make communism look "cool" and "right wing", otherwise you'd have a natsoc flag. National Bolshevism is a contradiction--the Bolsheviks made it their mission to destroy regionally different cultures.

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>>136289682
The AoC was libertarian though and that society was a failure. Also, NazBol's much better than libertarianism. At least the one time something very similar to it was tried it worked.

>>136288956
Sources: a Czech copy of 'Das Kapital' printed in the height of KSC rule.

About Marx: If we are to speak of ideology - actual ideology, as in the sense of a thing you believe in and apply to your every thought, Marx asserted historical materialism. Check that out.
Through historical materialism, Marx proposed, for example, that Rome fell because of a shift in economy necessitating a shift in the societal system, which it failed at implementing. Byzantium succeeded, extending its existence for another milenium

>>136280505
>Read the manifeso

the manifesto is a bunch of drivel that constantly contradicts itself

>>136284825
>The history of civilization is a history of class struggle

Yes, in the past 10,000 years we have seen the predominating economy be:

primitive communism then slave empires then feudalism then capitalism

Until the 1500s, feudalism predominated (or even slavery or primitive communism in parts of the world). Then capitalism began to spread out over the centuries from Holland and England.

It hasn't even been five centuries since capitalists started gaining some some power in a small area of the world, and already they say as an economic system it will last forever etc.

Meanwhile from the Paris commune to now we see class struggle worldwide. Right now Venezuela is engaged in a struggle against capitalism.

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>>136280505
>Soros pushing for and funding marxist/cultural marxist activist groups
>this is the ideology for the truly redpilled
kys

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>>136289863
>The AoC was libertarian though and that society was a failure
I just told you that I support the Constitution over the AoC. It can be logically concluded that: A) I am not perfectly libertarian or B) the AoC was not perfectly libertarian (or both). Too bad you're too retarded to notice

>Also, NazBol's much better than libertarianism
nice English

>At least the one time something very similar to it was tried it worked.
LMAO ever heard of the United States? How about the Netherlands? Economic freedom works. Your shitty commie system doesn't. Posting a mug of Stalin just proves that you're a commie kike.

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>>136280505
>Read the manifeso and enlighten yourselves.
I prefer statistics.

>>136289890
check out "debunking economics" by Keen.

>>136284894
>>exploded an atomic bomb
>Stole the plans from the US.
>>launched a satellite four years after Stalin died
>As in, with the captured German scientists' expertise.

It's funny how this guy's mind works...the US made the atomic bomb because European Jewish physicists showed Americans how to do it...but that was "stolen" from the US by the Russians...but Sputnik, Yuri Gagarin etc. - that was all credit to the Germans....

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>>136288673
This is what every nu-commie faggot dipshit coming out of a liberal college knows deep down, but they continue wasting their lives with it, making no headway at all aside from urging the populace towards an all out genociding of commies AGAIN, which is why the rest of us just laugh at them.

>>136289863
>nazbol meme
>fascism but without fascism's best quality, its aesthetic
pretty bad desu

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>>136285898
>communism

>>136288673
>classless, borderless (stateless), multicultural, atheistic, degenerate society where everyone is "equal" even though equality's a lie
>perfect utopian society just because "le no bad hierarchy anymore xdd"
kill yourself my man

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>>136280505

Commie pls.

>>136290463
I read all the volumes of 'Das Kapital', and its teachings do accurately describe the economic events I witnessed in my lifetime.
But I will check that out!

>>136280505
Why are you an egalitarian?
Simple question really

>>136290341
I don't understand what was incorrect with my English there but whatever.
Economic freedom may work for the middle class and the upper class however, the lower class is constantly on the brink of starvation in many countries meanwhile Porky has multiple homes and multiple cars.
Could you please stop referring to me as a commie anyway, I've said I don't believe communism would work as an ideology. I can see how you would be confused between national bolshevism and communism but there are differences. Stalin brought an agrarian backwater stuck in the 19th century into the 20th century as a fully industrialized world power in just under 30 years, tell me how that didn't work. Yes, there were deaths during the pursuit of that but there are almost always deaths during rapid industrialization.
Anyway, could you please stop with the reddit spacing?

>>136290754
That was more like capitalism, remember the Wall Street Crash?

>>136286867
>The CPI only takes into account material goods. Workers don't just produce consumer products, they also produce goods and services which are bought by businesses and are thus not represented in the consumer price index.

Workers may produce commodities not consumed by workers, but the wages the worker gets are spent on commodities he can produce. Thus the standard of living of a worker can be seen by looking at the hourly wage and the cost of consumer items.

>>136284702
Tfw No one gets it

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>>136291029
>remember the Wall Street Crash?
Remember the recovery?

>>136283175
It sounds like you can't refute his argument.

>>136291300
Remember how it took 10 years and the worst war in all history and during those ten years many people lost their jobs and died?

>>136284825
>history of civilization is a history of class struggle
It's also the history of groups religions and races. Most of the time lower classes identify more with their own Upper class than with other lower classes.
Enter gramsci

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>>136291445
It always seems to me like most communists seem to ignore the factor that risks plays in the economy almost entirely. I guess its easier to think that the capitalists are the bad guys if you can pretend that they were born into the position.

>>136291455
Remember how communism in its attempt for a great leap forward caused a famine that killed millions of people?

>>136290556
>..but that was "stolen" from the US by the Russians
Do you not know who the Rosenbergs are?

>>136291606
Remember how communism didn't start those famines? It was rapid industrialization and collectivization which was attempted to be done way too fast. Don't forget that the fucking kulaks burnt the crops too.

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>>136291455
Remember how it didn't result in the collapse of capitalism?

>>136289671
Saved. A brilliant post.

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>>136291697
Remember when the Kulaks found out they were being made to work longer for less reward so they kept their crops and they were killed for wanting to keep the full value of their labor?

>>136291697
Yea and capitalism didn't cause the wall street crash, it was caused by investors trying to exploit an economic boom without thinking ahead.

Also, don't kid yourself, those things happened in the name of communism.

>>136291697
>It was rapid industrialization and collectivization which was attempted to be done way too fast.
So it was the communists?

>Don't forget that the fucking kulaks burnt the crops too.
Because the state was going to take the last bits of food they had you retard, as you already stated collectivization failed them.

>>136288416
>not to mention the BLS uses IPD in their measure of productivity, so you would be using two different deflators

You brought up productivity, not me. My focus is on wages and the price of consumer items. That author claims productivity is slightly lower than is measured, and there is no reason for me to argue with that (it also means he thinks capitalism has lower productivity growth than popularly thought).

> plainly limited by the amount of the original value

Which is correct. If Picasso buys a canvas, a paintbrush and some paint for $75, then when he puts them in his studio they're still worth only $75. They become worth more when he lifts his hand to the canvas - his labor is what makes the $75 in supplies sell for more.

Also - this argument, which you label "Marxist" - is the same one the media companies use to say people should not copy ("pirate") movies, applications, music etc. They produce a DVD and sell it to my friend. They tell me I should not copy it because "the artist should be paid for their work". Well if the DVD only costs $30 to make, how is my copying it taking money from anything, all the value happened in the process.

The only exception would be if the artists' labor DID make the DVD worth something.

To reiterate: poster is arguing against the "Marxist" argument corporate America is making so that we pay for movies, music etc.

>>136291720
Remember how it nearly did since the popularity of socialism went up extremely fast during those ten years? By the way, it did in some countries such as Germany which adopted a socialist system and one of the factors as to why Hitler was elected chancellor was because of the Great Depression.
>>136291806
Remember the fact that the kulaks fucking whined about the famine they played part in and blamed it all on Joseph "literally hitler" Stalin.
>>136291870
Collectivisation may have been done in the name of communism but industrialization not so much.
>>136291943
They would have been allowed to have some of that food but they just had to share it with the poorer peasants who needed a portion of the surplus of food they had.

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>>136292156
>By the way, it did in some countries such as Germany which adopted a socialist system
Remember how German socialism lasted only 12 years and went to war with the other socialists?

>Remember how it nearly did since the popularity of socialism went up extremely fast during those ten years?
And then fell shortly afterwards thanks to the unsustainability of socialism.

>Remember the fact that the kulaks fucking whined about the famine they played part in and blamed it all on Joseph "literally hitler" Stalin.
Right, and that is the fault of communism. If people wanting to keep the full value of their labor results in famine, well tough shit.

>>136292156
>They would have been allowed to have some of that food but they just had to share it with the poorer peasants who needed a portion of the surplus of food they had.
The Kuklacks were peasants that were only marginally better off than their neighbors. So, the bit of food they had is taken and redistributed across the board thanks to the planning committee. Now everyone is running low on food thanks to economy of scale. Congrats, you just spread the problem around.

>>136291589
>risks plays in the economy almost entirely

Risk has no value.

>>136292400
>Remember how German socialism lasted only 12 years and went to war with the other socialists?
Remember how that isn't relevant in any way to what I said?

>And then fell shortly afterwards thanks to the unsustainability of socialism.
It wasn't the unsustainability of socialism which caused the popularity to fall, it was the war and the greater good mentality of the people at the time.

>Right, and that is the fault of communism. If people wanting to keep the full value of their labor results in famine, well tough shit.
>Refusing to share so you literally starve everyone around you including you and your family
Holy fuck were the kulaks retarded?

ITT: Uneducated, ignorant, clueless, brainwashed 12 year old Americans defending capitalism, without even know what it actually is.

This world is hopeless.

>>136291977
>They become worth more when he lifts his hand to the canvas - his labor is what makes the $75 in supplies sell for more.
Picasso is also a world renowned artist that had an extreme ammount of talent and was unafraid to push the boundaries of what would be considered art. If the average joe took that same ammount of money and bought the same ammount of art supplies and painted a picture, it would probably be worthless. Because nobody cares what the average joe paints, his labor is worthless.

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>>136292718
>Refusing to share so you literally starve everyone around you including you and your family
They were deliberately starved you idiot, they wanted to keep their food so that they wouldn't starve.

>it was the war
Communism survived the war, only to later implode in on itself.

>>136292897
I think you misunderstood, what I was saying was that popularity in socialism went down in nations which weren't socialist was because the mentality of the time was to unite behind your nation whether or not it was wrong. So more people stopped supporting socialism and instead turned to their capitalist nation. Also, the kulaks wouldn't have starved had they complied and stopped being greedy bastards.

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>>136280505
National Socialism rejects the most destructive element of Marxist Socialism. Egalitarianism. It accepts that people will always be different, have different skills and intelligence levels and as such, doesn't attempt to enforce equality through state measures by casting down the strong to the level of the weak.

It utilizes market economics, but rejects (((capitalism))) by having the individual reconciled with the community (as opposed to Capitalism which is the individual shitting on the community for profits and Marxism which is the community enforcing egalitarianism on the individual, thus effectively destroying it).

And most importantly: it rejects the international element that destroys ethnic groups by maintaining the current genepool instead of diluting it.

Sacrifice and integrity are the cornerstones of a National Socialist society and reject the inherently selfish natures of both Capitalism and Marxism.

Like I said: day and night.

>"National Socialism is just (((socialism)))"

Marxist (Left) socialism and National (Right) Socialism are "antipodal zeitgeists engaged in dialectic". That's a fancy way to say they're opposite ideologies designed to clash, like Yin and Yang.

NatSoc was fundamentally an ideology built around race, while Marxist socialism was entirely different: built around class. Hitler aimed to unite the right and left, including workers and their bosses, into a new German nation based on racial identity. Socialism, in contrast, was a class war between workers, bosses, and owners (Capitalists), aiming to build a workers state in which race and gender were insignificant. Socialists, especially Marxist socialists, were anti-religious atheists, whereas NatSoc went so far as to make Christianity the religion of the state.

The differences go on and on: Marxist socialism was internationalist, NatSoc was nationalist. Marxist socialism was egalitarian, whereas NatSoc believed that nature was unequal and required competition.

>>136280505
Communism and Nationalism are the true desires of the Demos. The Demos is retarded. Praise our oligarchs, cancel democracy before we go full Brezhnev

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>>136280505
>>136293149
Marxist socialism wanted to nationalize all private industry, while NatSoc privatized every major industry except the railroads (it considered these a military asset. In fact, Hitler once joked "they didn't need to nationalize property because they nationalized people". NatSoc drew on a range of pan-German theories, which wanted to blend Aryan workers and Aryan magnates into a super Aryan state, which would involve the eradication of class-focused socialism as a non-German ideology.

NatSoc redefined socialism as "Germanism/Volkism", which they saw as "producer-oriented capitalism", as opposed to "Jewish capitalism", aka, international finance, globalism, wall street, etc.
In theory, NatSoc economics was a version of Keynesianism, tailored to the Völkisch nature of whichever people adopted it. Its not one dogmatic economic system,and Hitler often joked that the lack of a specific ideology was their strength. NatSoc could be more "free market" as Americans know it, or less. But NatSoc is always in favor of the Volk over economic identity, of "producer capitalism" over "finance capitalism".

>>136280505
This triggers Trumptarts and Nazis.

>>136293149
Dude, get some help.

>>136292777
>ITT: Uneducated, ignorant, clueless, brainwashed 12 year old Americans defending capitalism, without even know what it actually is.
t. internet marxist that thinks he knows better.

>>136293291
>NatSoc privatized every major industry except the railroads

In other words, National Socialist had nothing to do with socialism. National Socialist = a different form of capitalism. This is the reason why America and the west did NOT reject Hitler's ideas and one of the reasons one he is so loved on this board, because Hitler was ultimately not against capitalism.

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>>136293387
get some racial pride, or youll become Sweden 2.0

>using ridicule rather than debate the points
cute

>>136293534
>internet marxist that thinks he knows better.

Where did I say that I am a marxist? Where did I say that I know better?

>>136293097
>Also, the kulaks wouldn't have starved had they complied and stopped being greedy bastards.
>"Hey, I should be able to keep the full value of my labor LIKE MARX SAID"
>oops, now the Soviets are killing me. Guess I should have ignored Marx.

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>>136280505
Communism is a system that kept the Jews in power in Communist Russia. They were all living like kings while Russians starved by the millions. You fucking idiots are pushing for something you never even studied. My father lived through communism, he did rather well for himself since guess what...he was part of the 1%. Go kys you brainless idiot and study communism.

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>>136293699
>nazism is the same as capitalism

Never change Saudi Canada...

>>136293794
>Where did I say that I am a marxist?
I could be mistaken, but generally when a statement like:

>ITT: Uneducated, ignorant, clueless, brainwashed 12 year old Americans defending capitalism, without even know what it actually is.

Is thrown around that kind of tone it's generally an internet marxist that thinks he knows better. Note that I could be mistaken.

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>>136293796
>implying Stalinism is anything like Marxism.

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>>136280505

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>>136280505

Communism is/was designed to cause implosion & population control. It's also Social Engineering to make people dependent on a Entity.

[Threads: http://archive.4plebs.org/_/search/boards/pol.x/subject/Knowledge%20Bomb/username/anonymous5/tripcode/%21%219O2tecpDHQ6/]

When countries that have it fails/falls, it's working exactly how it was designed to do.

>>136294196
So then what's the point of it?

>>136293906

Dude, instead of posting age-old Hitler memes, why don't you pick up a book on your beloved Hitler and his ideologies and beliefs and actually figure out what is what? Ohh, that's right, we're too ignorant.

>>136294063
>I could be mistaken

You're mistaken.

>>136294553
What do you mean? Do you think I've been arguing for Marxism this entire time? Because I'm not, I don't think Marxism works at all, some ideas are good but the full ideology definitely would not work.

>>136283457
National Socialism and Fascism are the same thing.

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>>136294791
what (((book))) ? the one that says that he wanted to conquer the world and kill non blonde people?

again, no arguments, just ridicule.
have fun with your "egalitarian society" when sandniggers become the majority in Canada.

>>136280505
>Every western country becomes more and more tended to communism every year.
To socialism actually, and it's just because the giant corporations want it.

>>136294553

Go read a book. Educate yourself. No one is responsible for teaching you, except you.

>>136294982

Just wondering, how old are you?

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>>136295028
I have educated myself, now I'm wondering why the fuck people still defend Stalinism.

>>136294911
What's the point of Stalinism then? To industrialize the nation at the cost of tens of millions of lives only to then collapse afterwards?

OP is a soft skinned gap year faggot (at oldest) who doesn't know what he doesn't know. He lazy, to good to work his way to prosperity, and so romantacises 10's of millions of gulag deaths, reversed enforced borders (no one can LEAVE, no one WANTS to come in) OP thinks an egalitarian system will give him status, as he daydreams of being a party elite member. Funny how that works. He doesn't daydream of manning the rivet machine making substandard goods that no one wants, at anemic wages. And, of course, in any commy system OP would among the first sent to the gulags - a useless, soft, pseudo-intellectual who is more trouble than he's worth, to the endless 5 year plan.

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>>136292597
>Risk has no value.
Risk is what keeps the economy going. It is not an object which has value, but it is the method by which the economy remains efficient.

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>>136295158
mid twenties. The "go read a book" is an sjw tactic. If you still buy the propaganda that Hitler was an evil comic book villain, it wouldn't surprise me why you're a commie advocating for whites to be outbred by other races.

I know, you're at that "fuck capitalism and fascism, seize the means of production, reee" phase.

Lemme break it to you" man is an animal like any other animal and must obey the rules of nature, natural order.
That's what you commie/marxists fail to understand, some people are more talented than others.
We acknowledge inequality between races, and encourage competition. National socialism a way of life. Mother nature is fascist.

Now go pay to visit Marx's grave, he's jewing you from the grave.

>>136295493
>What's the point of Stalinism then?
To weaken the power of the Jews, finance and global corporations while also maintaining equality and good standards of living for the proletariat. Look at Russia after the Holodomor would you, it was a great nation and in comparison to how they lived beforehand, the proletariat had somewhat decent living conditions and that was thanks to Stalin, yes people died but that was a necessary sacrifice.

>be a communist
>get trick arrested
>get tricked into going into a gulag for ten years or more

>>136296106
I don't know why people use communism and gulags in the same sentence. Gulags were only really used in Stalin's rule and many communists I've seen hate Stalin because of his nationalism and authoritarianism.

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>>136296002
>yes people died but that was a necessary sacrifice
And then the nation collapsed a couple decades later anyways, rendering their sacrifice pointless.

>>136296214
Nope. Typical commie retard blaming only Stalin when in reality this shit was Lenins doing.

>>136280505
>cappitalism is oppressive
No, it's not. Private ownership of the means of production is the most efficient way of controlling an economy
>>136281136
>maybe you haven't studied the bible enough and that is why you're not Christian. Ever thought about that

>>136296214
That's the point you brain dead fucktard. Once the shine of "new" wore off, an too many people were asking too many questions, killing off a fifth of you population was the only way to keep the sham alive. It wasn't Stalin as much as his place on the timeline. Russia to this day suffers from the IQ losses, and might never recover.

>>136296265
The nations collapse wasn't at the fault of Stalin. The main reason it fell was because of cretins like Khrushchev and Gorbachev.
>>136296337
Lenin wasn't for Gulags, it was Stalin who wanted them.

>>136282065
>most effective system
lol

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I kinda wish this Polish Rambo was my father.

>>136296517
Russia suffers today because it's a shitty pseudo democracy with a forced capitalist system.

>>136296590
NEVER believe a Tankies filthy lies. Lenin was the one calling for mass terror to opposition by sending them to concentration camps.

>>136281950
>those who work in the factory run the factory
in no way could this fail

>>136296517
You do realize nearly every soul in Soviet Russia would have emigrated West, if allowed, right? That's where the authoritarianism comes in, you brain- dead gulag-minimizing soft-skinnedfucktard.

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>>136296590
>The main reason it fell was because of cretins like Khrushchev and Gorbachev
Yeah, after 80 years, capitalism has been around and going strong for thousands of years, how the hell can anyone consider that system a success?

>>136280505
OP IS A MASSIVE FAGGOT

Communism does not work. The manifesto was written by an idealistic conspiracy theory retard. It has never worked and there is no reason why it should. It is an inherently flawed system, this has been proven by history.

Can someone please throw OP out of a helicopter

>>136296732
Any proof of that? Not trying to be a smart ass or something, I'm genuinely curious.
>>136296829
The capitalists were lucky, they could have easily got shitty leaders which ruined their system. Luck was on their side, not their system.

>>136281950
Yeah this is just failed propaganda

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>>136296917
>The capitalists were lucky, they could have easily got shitty leaders which ruined their system
We get shit leaders all the time, our system has been strong enough to withstand them.

>>136280746
Fippy Bippy

>>136296847
OP is such a soft-skinned faggot he was kicked out of a NYC drama club for being to much of a faggot. OP is so ignorant it's hard to believe, but we know he's never read Solzhenitsyn or The Russians. OP wants easy status; he thinks he'd be on the Central Commitee, rather than a gulag'ed faggot kek.

>>136297033
There's also the fact you get a new leader every 4 - 10 years which isn't exclusive to capitalism.

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>>136297234
That's true, but when your system seems to always degenerate into a dictatorship then that's likely a fault of the system.

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>>136280505

>each according to his means
>each according to his different means
>each according to his difference

what could go wrong?

friendly reminder that we say 'cultural marxism' for a reason

>>136297385
The dictatorship isn't necessary in NazBol. In Stalinism it is but I think dictatorship is better anyway, as more can be done in a faster amount of time.

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>>136283981
Literally have never seen a more retarded post in my life. You sir... are too stupid to be fucking alive, your presence on this thread amazes and stupifys me. I was not aware of how low the human intelect could fall until I saw this post.

>>136280505
Except capitalism objectively benefits everyone. If anything the 1% in Communist countries (the Party) were far more powerful and more comfortable than the 1% in Capitalism (just people with money, most for a brief period of time before they lose it.)

In the years since the collapse of Communism, poverty has been reduced by over 70% globally. Which places still suck? Oh yes, Socialist countries, like Zimbabwe, Somalia, South Africa, Venezuela. Economic freedom correlates DIRECTLY with economic growth.

And this will all end soon. Not because of Communism, but because all of this is dependent on the white man, and he is going extinct. You won't get Communism, though, you'll get tribal fucking Juche-esque fascist dictatorships operating totally unrestricted across the globe. You will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER in a MILLION years see nonwhites achieve even the beginnings of the Socialism you desire, to say nothing of a "classless stateless society," which is a fucking oxymoron because "society" means people, and people form hierarchies naturally.

Idiots.

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>>136297484
>but I think dictatorship is better anyway
Well then why would you even bring this >>136297234 up? You say that you only collapse because of bad leaders, and that those bad leaders can only stay because of the dictatorship, yet you like the dictatorship anyways.

>>136297609
It obviously has some flaws but I think the pros outweigh the cons. No system to govern by is flawless.

>>136297524
Nothing is more cringe than young commie-Lara's from the cradle of the West. Sure, 99% of them will grow out of it, but there so edgy like it's 1982. We can only hope they someday read first person accounts of Soviet Russia. Actually, it would be hilarious to watch them get reduced to tears during an updated episode of "Scared Straight", where instead on convicts yelling at delinquents, we'd have Soviet emigres yelling at Starbucks communists.

>>136280505
I have read it.
Some stuff is smart.
Then i discovered national socialism.
Everything is intelligent and natural.
Then i studied history and watched carefully nowadays life.
And i can say this, with all my soul :
Sieg heil \o

>>136280505
Isn't it true that Marx couldn't even take care of himself and his friend bought him food?

>>136298242
Engels was a masochist yes.

>>136298349
Wtf? I'm supposed to take economic advice from a grown up man who didn't even bother to work for his own living?? He must have been the NEET idol of his time and got massive amount of fans that even started revolutions.

>>136297840
Don't make me warm up the helicopter, boy. Now go clean your room and be thankful for you Westerness.

>>136285898
Better than a perpetual slump, but where you cnat say it's a slump because kgb will take you away and no one will be allowed to speak of you again. A large portion of communist technological advancements were as a result of stolen western tech. Look up the GRU

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>>136298513
>le helicopter meme xD
First day here?

>>136298511
He was undeniably a smart jew but historical materialism is trash.

>>136298705
Did you emigrate here after we chased you out of the last thread?

>>136291589
>the factor that risks plays in the economy

When you mandate that an economy be unplanned, obviously risks will ensue.

You mandate economies not be planned, then you complain of risk...

>>136298799
What thread?

>>136280505
The idea is ancient, from the 1800s, it's been tried time and time again, and no country in its influence has succeeded.

What will it take?

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>>136283147

>western countries tend to become more degenerate and self-destructive over time

Kinda...But societies go in and out of periods of traditionalism and periods of progressivism. Its a cycle. Its observable in many cultures. Take the history of Japan for instance.

the real culprit is demography.

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>>136298844

Fucking cringe.

>>136298799
I was thinking the same. Has same, stupefying amount of naïveté.

>>136280505
Agreed. Also nice to see more communist threads on /pol/ lately that isn't just ' helicopter rides XD'

>>136298844
Obvious larp. Too obese to be authentic communist.

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>>136280505

>>136290396
And history (eg. EVERY SHITHOLE COUNTRY THAT EVER TRIED COMMUNISM )

>>136282065
>most effective system
>hasn't been successful once

>>136299614
A country trying communism is an oxymoron as communism is supposed to be a stateless society. A state can't try communism. Also, the irony of an American calling any country a shit hole is pretty amusing.

>>136299516
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000498133.pdf

Fake-"communists" have been throughly BTFO upthread. The job has been done. This now a slide thread.

>>136299459
>implying
You will never have my rare pepe collection.

>>136280505
Struggle is the essence of life without it life loses all meaning.

>>136280505
>more and more tended to communism

That's because the average IQ is dropping, nothing to do with ideology.

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I have accepted it

still hate fags though

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>>136299746
god you are retarded
> We are for the withering away of the state, and at the same time we stand for the strengthening
of the dictatorship of the proletariat, which represents the most powerful and mighty of all forms of the state which have
existed up to the present day. The highest development of the power of the state, with the object of preparing the conditions
of the withering away of the state: that is the Marxist formula. Is it "contradictory"? Yes, it is "contradictory." But this
contradiction is a living thing and wholly reflects the Marxist dialectic.
a speech by Joseph Stalin
attempts at communism count just as much if not more than the theoretical attempts that exist in your head

>>136300769
you arent worth the effort of formatting

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>>136280505
Pure historicism

>>136299746
If no country can try communism, what was the ussr, cuba, north korea, north vietnam, etc.
Regarding the thing about america, it aint great but it could be a lot worse (communist)

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>>136298805
A planned economy would have risk as well.

>>136300088

not a meme then

>>136301227

>>136296752
>nearly every soul in Soviet Russia would have emigrated West, if allowed, right?

What a load of nonsense. Soviet sailors and merchant seamen had the opportunity to emigrate all the time. The vast majority did not.

The reverse really - many countries were afraid of their workers talking to Soviet sailors.

It is true that after the Six day war in 1967, many jews wanted to leave Russia.

>>136301136
If no country can try communism, what was the ussr, cuba, north korea, north vietnam, etc.
Various types of socialism

>>136301136
They were socialist with the intent for their society to become communist. However, after the first few leaders, they decided not to even pursue communism as much and thus just became socialist dictatorships.

>>136299746
>A country trying communism is an oxymoron as communism is supposed to be a stateless society. A state can't try communism.

That's correct comrade. Thank you for educating these workers operating in a false consciousness, as well as the BIDF (Bourgeois Internet Defense Force).

This is a not place to underages,OP.

Mods,pls.

>>136302605
>not a place to underages
Fix'd

>>136302605
>>136302648
cry some more fag

>>136302714
what is this picture? social democrats are not the same as communists and both exist now

>>136302714
I think that is one of the stupidest images I've ever seen, liberals, progressives, socialists and social democrats are completely different to communists. Teddy Roosevelt called himself a progressive, was he a communist?

>>136302943
I think this is the same Canadian that spams these stupid pictures in every communist thread, to him he probably was

>>136291297
explain

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>>136282774
>confederate flag
You're a disgrace. The Confederacy detested the rising industrial capitalism of the North and feared it supplanting their traditional agrarian nigger slave economy. Most federal tax dollars were funding the degeneracy including southerners tax dollars and they believed federally funded internal improvements to be unconstitutional. That's why they tried to secede. It's evidenced in the differences between the Confederate and US Constitutions and the Address of South Carolina.
http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/address-of-south-carolina-to-slaveholding-states/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_Constitution#States.27_rights

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>>136302714
>>136302812
>>136302943
Theyre all just variations on the democracy meme

>>136303967
Socialists not necessarily but I agree with you on the rest. He said they were communism though which they obviously aren't.

>>136280505
you're implying that people are getting smarter. people are getting much dumber.

>>136280505
One of these days I will smash a two by four into the head of a communist to deck him. Then going to town on his head when he is lieing down. Then when done and blood is everywhere. I am going to smile with the sun in the my face. Then have a beer and sleep like a baby when it's bedtime.

I am just waiting for the rule of law to break down.

Communism is the ultimate bluepill.

A doctor and a cashier can never be equals on any level, especially at an economic level. That is the ultimate redpill: some people are superior to others and deserve to make more money than their inferior counterparts.

>>136307617

Do you know what communism is? there is no money in communism...

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>>136307773
>you pretend to pay me and I'll pretend to work!

>>136307972

pay?

>>136308094
>working for free
oh so like slavery you mean

>>136282065
>I have never heard of a communist country leaving its people to eat feces.
>communist country
>communist
>never heard

Fucking idiot commies. Are you really surprised state run media doesn't report on state run atrocities? Holy fuck, these idiots couldn't seize their own nutsack, let alone the means of production.

Can you imagine people this dumb trying to run anything?

>>136306618
You wont do shit and we both know it

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>>136280505

I read the manifesto. It is a grade=A sack of shit.