logic proves your god doesn't exist.

>>134839113
The only reason a good doesn't exist is because you were able to be retarded enough to make this thread.

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ran out of room so here is the rest continued:

***Note I am using "he" just to type fast, not tryin to assume this fictional sky daddy is actually a male***

Now in case any of the sky worshiping christians here try to say I am a sinner, let me teach you something since you clearly don't have a clue. I was born and raised christian. I went to church all my life.

I sincerely believed in jesus and accepted him. So don't tell me I'm not open to other beliefs. I WAS a former christian. I believed I knew the truth. i studied jesus night and day. but guess what? It was when I read this supposed "holy" book itself that I decided to become an atheist. Most christians haven't even read the bible, but I read the whole thing by the time i was 16.

I know the bible like the back of my hand so you can't pull your usual lies on me. and guess what? it is a book of fiction. you got people saying we came from talking snakes in a garden. guess what? that's called a FAIRY TALE.

and this so called "jesus" character is based on myths, which we now know are total bunk. this idiot didn't even exist.

so when my friends say that 4chan became christian, if yal actually believe these fairy stories, let me tell you as a former christian you need to learn some science and logic.

until then you iron age goat idiots dont deserve respect and should not be surprised by that.

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>why doesn't he stop evil?
Because God allows free will
>Holocaust
No such thing, >>>/x/
>who made god
God did!
>he could prove
He doesn't prove it because he wants you to prove your loyalty to the faith!
>>134839257
please stop namefagging
>>134839331
>jesus didnt exist
Great now you're denying history.

>>134839113
1.free will, people can do good and bad as they please, and for disease everyone is supposed to live the same exact life span with the same health duhhh (you qoute science but you dont seem to understand cancer)
2.to say you have any idea of what happened billions of years ago is hilarious... like an ant wondering when that person who stepped on him was born
3.brings us back to free will. if he MADE everyone love him then it wouldnt really be love would it just forced feelings

>>134839438
I always knew you retarded.

>>134839588
t. namefag

>>134839113
Firstly I'm assuming you're talking about the Christian God.
>If this god of yours exists, why would he allow evil such as cancer or the holocaust? He is powerful enough to stop it, yet doesn't? Makes no sense.
Evil exists because humans allow it, because we sin. The wages of sin is death, and death comes in many forms. God will stop it, but when he does it will mean the destruction of many. He's patient and waiting for people to come to him, giving us time to repent. His only other choices are to kill us all and start over, or take away our free will and make us good. Instead he chose to offer us a chance to follow his will, or be cut off from him forever.
> If this god of yours exists, who caused god? How can you believe that god caused all of this, yet say that nothing caused god? It is unlogical. Again makes no sense.
Nothing caused God because God exists outside of time. This is the nature of eternity. There is no past, present, or future, it is all there "at once" so to speak.
>If this god of yours exists, and if this oppresser in the sky really wants to "save" me, he could easily prove to me he exists. He could easily spell his name in the stars or perform a miracle. Yet he doesn't. Yet again makes no sense.
He's sent innumerable signs to you to lead you towards him, if only you opened your heart and had eyes to see and ears to hear. Genuine conversion requires genuine interest. It takes a strong person to admit that they need help.

>>134839113
>logic
before you goe throwing around reddit buzzwords please show me exactly what rules of logic Gods existance violates

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rules_of_inference

>>134839331
>you got people saying we came from talking snakes in a garden
I'd say that they are way off track. The Bible says that we are made by God, in his image. The serpent in the garden could've been a literal serpent, or a metaphor or symbol. Whatever it may have been, the imagery fits well with the rest of scripture, and the enmity of the seed of the serpent versus the seed of the woman.
>and this so called "jesus" character is based on myths, which we now know are total bunk
The existence of Jesus of Nazareth is not a subject most people disagree with. It's probably the most difficult thing to try and disprove about the New Testament. There are secular historical accounts of his existence, including Josephus and other authors of the time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#Christ_myth_theory

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>>134839113
Fuck off and quit making us look like dickheads.

>>134839113
>muh pure factual logic
>muh god isnt actually real
>muh tl;dr longpost
it's all there, folks

to the person who said: "He's sent innumerable signs to you to lead you towards him, if only you opened your heart and had eyes to see and ears to hear. "

my heart IS opened.

I just told you i was a former christian all my life, studied everything about jesus. go back and read before you make such an utter irrational fool of yourself.

this is the problem with christians and god believers. they blindly assume that whoever doesn't believe in their sky daddy is closed minded.

i can tell you for a fact that i am open minded. i read the entire bible several times, much more than most christians. i am involved in charity work as well. so there goes your stereotype of "evil atheists."

so far nobody has been able to address the logical refutation of god that i posted. all i see is namecalling, basically proving what i said the first time ------ please for your own good learn actual science and logic.

>>134840725
>>134840817

OP is comfirmed around 16 as this is all pretty bad logic.
I'am an atheist as well but this is retarded logic.
1. never be condescending in tone (lol me right now) it will make not not even want to listen to your argument.
2. Don't say "your god" again it's condescending to a religious person
3. Relgious people would argue god allows evil to happen to test us, so fucks up your first point.
4.Who caused god. Relgion says no one
5. god could prove he exist, again that would fuck up the whole "wanting to test us" thing

You want to dispel people of religion you'll have to use reasoning. Logic doesn't work.

>>134840817
Are you trolling or false flagging? I really hope you aren't, every deception is a win for the enemy of humanity, even if in jest.

>>134840817
Do you believe God loves you? He truly does and wants you to be part of his family. There are barriers in the way, but they can be overcome if you search. Ask some questions and I'll answer.

Gonna bump this bait thread so OP feels happy

>>134839438
Thats a pretty shitty chart, there are some extreme jumps in logic there

>>134840817
motherfucker you are picking and choosing which post you reply to, too make sure that you skip posts you have no refutation on or counterpoints

if you were actually logical you wouldnt be pondering over something you would never be able to prove or disprove.

but alas, you are nigger

Asking what created God is a category error. Once you ask about some thing that is created you are no longer asking about god but a creature.

Evil exists in the world because of sin. While the holocaust killed millions of people, it also brought about the creation of Israel, a new Jewish homeland thousands of years after the last one was destroyed. World War 2 killed millions, but the world has enjoyed relative peace since then and there are now billions of more people alive than there ever were before the war.

You talk about logic as if it is something that exists in nature, that there is some real "truth" to logic but that is not the case. If you want to say that something that exists only in the minds of human beings also really exist in the natural world, you are basically actualizong the creative act of god's own mind in the material world. Good luck proving that scientifically

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>>134839113

One of the many amazing prophecies of Jesus Christ from the Old Testament is that of verse 1 from Psalm 22:

>"O God my God, look upon me: why hast thou forsaken me?"

Many people have said, "Jesus said God has forsaken him on the cross, how could he be the Messiah?"
Jesus was invoking Psalm 22 on the cross. The Psalm was wrote around 1,000 years before Christ was born.

This is significant because a few verses later in the same Psalm it says this:

>"They have pierced my hands and feet."

Some renderings have it;

>"they have torn holes in my hands and my feet"

Strange. It would appear that Jesus Christ invoked a Psalm wrote 1,000 years before He was born that seemed to tell of His very unique death, crucifixion; which did not even exist at the time Psalm 22 was wrote.

Psalm 22 goes on to say:

>"They parted my garments amongst them; and upon my vesture they cast lots."

This is another strange coincidence. It is known that the Roman soldiers gambled, or "cast lots" on Christ's garments as He was being crucified. If Christ was utterly out of His depths and defeated; why does this Psalm--that was invoked as He was in unimaginable pain--foretell of exact circumstances of the very death He was experiencing? Circumstances that no one could have known?

Not only this, Psalm 22 ends by foretelling the great rise of Christendom, which was achieved based on the very death that Christ Himself was experiencing, that the Psalm undeniably addresses:

>"All the ends of the earth shall remember, and shall be converted to the Lord: And all the kindreds of the Gentiles shall adore in his sight."

Remember, at the time of Christ, only one tribe was expecting a Messiah. This Psalm called forth by Christ on the cross predicts His death to an exactitude, and it just happens to predict the unprecedented worldwide conversion based on this death.

How do atheists explain this away?

>>134840817
religion is based on irrational belief with small bits of """Evidence""" such as Jesus being a historical figure however none of his miracles can be proved, just like Muhammad is also a historical figure with people who wrote about his travels but none of his miracles can also be proved just like. That along with pseudo science. (If you can't explain what happened before the big bang it was obviously my very specific God). It's belief in the irrational your not meant to look for evidence proving God your meant to look inside your feelings and your "soul" to know or not.

That's why people say they believe in God because the definition of believe is to accept that (something) is true, especially without proof.

>>134839113

1. Holocaust didn't happen. Even if it did, free will means that actions have consequences.

2. Causality applies only the the physical, and not the metaphysical.

3. If you want God to be some sort of dancing monkey for your amusement, you don't seem to have figured out the power differential between you.

Atheist 'intellectuals', everyone.

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>>134841543
can you prove the big bang?

>>134841724
came here to post this. both theories require faith of something that cannot currently be proven.

>>134839438
>Why doesn't he stop evil
>Free will
>How did and does he stop Quran from re-writing
>His will
wut

>>134841543
>your meant to look inside your feelings and your "soul" to know or not.
In Christianity that's a pretty grave mistake. Christians are not just to have faith, but answers as to why they believe. We know that God is who he says he is through Biblical prophecy, the repetition and prediction of events before they happen. This proves to us that the works that these prophecies are written in are divinely inspired and the source is from outside of time. See >>134841500
for one example of hundreds.

OP is comfirmed around 16 as this is all pretty bad logic.">>134841060


Nice try. As if an "atheist" (you are obv a christian) would bother defending god belief. if there are any holes in my logical refutations
then i am willing to consider them. but as of now nobody has been able to address them.

btw i am not being condesending, when i have reason to respect god believers i will. so far i do not. they are unwilling to use logic or science, so in my book they are not to be taken seriously.

2. you don't even make any sense. it is obv not "my" god, so it is correct to say that this imaginary creature is theirs.

3. again this makes no sense. let me know when you have a real rebuttal. there is no proof of "testing" since there has been no proof of god yet. again if god exists, he wouldn't be allowing this evil. you can't just say "he's testing us" because that assumes he exists. please for the love of god (haha! pun intended) learn some logic and science.

4. that is why it makes no sense. they say eveyrthing else has a cause but god doesn't have to have one? why the double standard? the notion is utterly irrational.

5. again you assume he wants to test us. this god of yours seems to be an odd creature. why test us if he wants us to love him? loving parents do not put their children through tests. they do not leave their children alone to fend for themselves. yet this is what this supposed sky daddy does.

see how christians just keep adding more illogical absurd notions instead of using science and logic. very typical.

>>134839113
>If this god of yours exists, why would he allow evil such as cancer or the holocaust? He is powerful enough to stop it, yet doesn't? Makes no sense.
also, you're an idiot to think that something temporal can be seen as evil by someone omnipotent. God knows you'll be ok if you get cancer, because so much more awaits us later. It's literally a nothingburger from the perspective of someone with knowledge that we don't possess. Any "why is evil allowed on earth" theories come from a place of pride and ignorance.

I love that so many people believe they can define 'God' with their limited brain and resources. I actually find it humorous that you think you've solved the complexities of the universe. Embarrassing.

>>134841724
Funny thing is a catholic priest came up with the Big Bang, and he found it elegantly jives with the notion of a sudden creation ex nihilo. The CMB tells us it probably went down that way

>>134841814
>>134841724

>never took physics or astronomy
>shills out worlds most parroted meme response

wrong

the COBE map and analysis of the satellite's data provide very strong evidence for the physics behind the big bang theory

try looking for published scientific evidence before saying it doesn't exist friendo

>>134842131
Even if we can't understand the whole, is it not a noble attempt to try, or should we just let sleeping dogs lie?

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>>134839113
here is a much stronger counter argue ment (pic related) also you cannot prove god doesn't exist you just have faith he doesn't

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>>134842031

>that is why it makes no sense. they say eveyrthing else has a cause but god doesn't have to have one? why the double standard? the notion is utterly irrational.

Everything physical needs a cause, that's the second law of thermodynamics. It offers no position on the metaphysical.

>you don't even make any sense. it is obv not "my" god, so it is correct to say that this imaginary creature is theirs

Oh...you're a troll.

>>134842215

It's well accepted by modern Christians that God caused the Big Bang. It was first devised by Catholic Priest and Physcist George's Lemitre you understand.

Fedoras of the day hated the idea, because it points to the idea of a creator. All the cool atheists back then thought the universe was eternal. They had maths 'proving' it and everything. But then they realised LeMotre was right, and have spent the last 50 years trying to show how a Big Bang can happen without a creator. They gave up in the end as said 'well it's impossible to know how it happened, but we know what happened 0.0000002 seconds AFTER, so obviously it doesn't matter how it happened'

Can you see the irony?

>>134839113
>Thinks this is an intelligent post
>Pic is of a "witty" nigger trying his absolute hardest to be intellectual
>Op's overall IQ is about 89

Sage and kys.

>>134841724
Not 100%

However there's a lot more evidence to support it, Background radiation/Universe continuing to expand etc. Your using the logic of if you can't 100% prove the big bang then it was obviously my iron age people who wrote about Jesus 100 years after his accession (Or death). Instead of a number of other almost infinite possibility's stretching from Zeus being real to your acutally an Alien having the worlds most insane drug trip

We should be taking the most logical path if we're working out the universe. Otherwise I'll just pull the your in a simulation in which some people are programmed to believe in god and this is a scientific test to see an evolution of a purely ai universe .

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>>134839113
>why would he allow evil
because humans have free will
>who caused god
even if he isnt the first cause/uncaused, that doesnt mean that he does not exist
>why doesnt he prove it to me
god doesnt need to prove jack shit to you, and he already chose to show himself 2000 years ago. besides time and time again hes stated that he wants us to find him on our own

>i was born and raised christian
lmao no you werent. hello, protestant

>>134842215
naturalism requires faith

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>>134842166
still need some proofs

>>134842215
>VERY STRONG EVIDENCE
what is this evidence?


the only thing more retarded than a fundamentalist religious person, is someone who believes science (which is constantly changing because its only a means for man to explain things that would be happening anyway) to be infallible

mankind are just animals deluded by their ego.

>>134839113
>1. If this god of yours exists, why would he allow evil such as cancer or the holocaust? He is powerful enough to stop it, yet doesn't? Makes no sense.
Because they deserved to suffer.

>2. If this god of yours exists, who caused god? How can you believe that god caused all of this, yet say that nothing caused god? It is unlogical. Again makes no sense.
You can say the same thing about the big bang. Not an argument.

>3. If this god of yours exists, and if this oppresser in the sky really wants to "save" me, he could easily prove to me he exists. He could easily spell his name in the stars or perform a miracle. Yet he doesn't. Yet again makes no sense.
The facts are out there. You just have to want to look for them.

>>134839113
>prove

>a non falsifiable

good luck

>>134842215
>the COBE map
>waaah we can't see past the beginning of time in our universe
not an argument

>Thinking you'd get anywhere mentioning the holocaust in a negative light.

You may be familiar with fallacies, but neglect appealing to /pol/'s logic.

>>134842291
You can't prove that it's meaningful to say "god exists". Therefore anyone who does say that is an illogical idiot spouting nonsense.

>>134842441
its not very logical to try and explain something on a universal scale.

thats a fact, its just a bunch of nigs making conjecture, until the next nigger comes up with something that sounds more right.

shit, physics could change on a dime under different atmospheric/chemical conditions.

u r think liek baby

>>134839113
further, i can answer all of those but you are not ready to hear the answers because your heart is hard

>>134842507
>Because they deserved to suffer.
Job didn't. Suffering in the world is much more than what we can comprehend, what happens behind the scenes is something that we must trust God's judgement on.

>>134842610
see
>>134839803

>>134842676
I am ready, please give me the GodPill

>>134839438
that image does surmount the non-falsifiability of the God of Adam, Moses, Abram, Jacob, and David.

>>134839438
>God isn't powerful enough to allow free will and abolish evil

Pfft. Fucking Godlets, I swear.

Seriously though. Logic is according to God. If God so desires the absence of evil and the will of man both would be so.

>>134839113
1 prove its evil
2 not "unlogical"
3 he doesn't want to save you

>>134842794
>>God isn't powerful enough to allow free will and abolish evil
that is a logical contradiction
It has nothing to do with power over the natural universe

>>134839803
Well that's not my claim... but for example:

>God is a timeless entity which acts in time.
Abject self contradiction.

>father son and holy spirit are each god but are not eachother. There is only one god. A!=A

>>134841302
even though i am on the side of the guy who posted that image, that image makes me swoon with its absurdity not in specific truths/facts it identifies, but in the leaps you point out

"leaps" are more like gigaparsecs

>>134839113
1) God permitted free-will. The story of the man who kept his eyes of Jesus and sank is similar to his unresponsiveness today.

2) Big Bang = "Nothing created nothing from nothing and nothing's nothing made something" There is an extremely intricate design to this world and each design requires a designER

3)The world is the devil's domain. You see God all the time but you deny him. God see's no evil and you can not see him. Pray and ask for his presence to be known.

>>134842794
you want the answer to the paradox?

then you get a paradox in return:
yes and no(not a super-state) at the same time and at the same place always in all dimensions

>>134839113
Wew i bet you are very young since your arguments aren't so logic as you claim.

1) Because we have free will and this life means nothing, it's only a mere test to check who we really are.

2)Every action has its reason, but something had to be first, if something created God, then what created this "something"? It's illogical to claim that everything has been created by some power, it's infinite chain of actions and reactions.

3)You have to be good man because you want to, not because you are afraid. God won't punish you for your sins in your lifetime nor reward you for good actions, because our free will would mean nothing.

note how nobody has been able to address the logical refutations of god.

they all resort to bashing us over the head with their bible verses and calling us names. this is why atheism keeps growing so fast. people are sick of being told they have to worship a fairy tale.


another logical refutation which i didn't even mention yet: so you claim this god of yours all-powerful, yes? then can this supposed god of yours create a stone so heavy that he cannot lift it? if he can, then he is not all powerful. if he cannot, then he is also not powerful.

thus we see this mythical creature you cling to cannot be "all powerful" -- it is an absurd and irrational notion .

people please, just read a little bit of science and logic and educate yourselves. we are living in the age of computers and technology. what use have we of a sky creature? it is flatly contradictory.

hopefully someday humanity wakes up and stops believing this nonsense. the logic is there for you, all you need to do is use your brain.

we have the ability to reason and the mind is a wonderful thing. use it!! that is all a freethinker asks you people to do.

>>134839113
>If this god of yours exists, why would he allow evil such as cancer or the holocaust? He is powerful enough to stop it, yet doesn't? Makes no sense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

>If this god of yours exists, who caused god? How can you believe that god caused all of this, yet say that nothing caused god? It is unlogical. Again makes no sense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument

>If this god of yours exists, and if this oppresser in the sky really wants to "save" me, he could easily prove to me he exists. He could easily spell his name in the stars or perform a miracle. Yet he doesn't. Yet again makes no sense.
He all ready came and left centuries before you where born

>>134842630
>its not very logical to try and explain something on a universal scale.
Well it is if humans want to work out something. May as well just say it's illogical to listen to music or dance or learn another language since all you should be doing is eating,shitting,sleeping and fucking if we wanted to become robot tier

>thats a fact, its just a bunch of nigs making conjecture, until the next nigger comes up with something that sounds more right.
yeah that's science first ooga booga caveman thought the man/bear moved the sun everyday then the Christians thought that Earth was the center of the Universe and now they know we're not. Perhaps future scientists will prove god is not real and people will look back on Christians and Muslims/Jews how we look back at Cavemen religions

>shit, physics could change on a dime under different atmospheric/chemical conditions.
Yes but until that time we're running off the thought it doesn't. There's no point in saying Gravity doesn't exist because elsewhere some chemical could counteract the forces of gravity therefore God is real.


You've pulled the "It's to big to comprehend" and there could be a universe where god is real therefore I"m right and any number of other countless univiers where god isn't real don't count

>>134842958
>God is a timeless entity which acts in time.
Time is a dimensional property. God existing outside of time is a way of saying God exists in a higher dimension of existence. He can see all of time without being constricted to it, just as a we as third dimensional beings could interact with the second dimension without existing fully within it.
>father son and holy spirit are each god but are not eachother. There is only one god.
Only logically inconsistent if we view it from our plane of existence. We humans are also three persons (Body, mind, spirit). God has the ability to manifest these aspects of himself how he pleases, where we do not have that control. It's kinda like having three tiles, and in each exist one of our aspects, but we are bound to the bodies experiences. God isn't bound and can move freely.

>>134842958
>Abject self contradiction
A scientist is not a variable within an experiment but can act upon it
>There is only one god A!=A
Liquid water and water vapor are each water but are not each other. There is only one type of H2O molecule
Entities from without a system can still act upon it and entities (even though god is not) may have different forms but the same base substance.

>>134843192
>note how nobody has been able to address the logical refutations of god.

i am able, but not to objectivity
see:
>>134842676

>>134843093
What is th pint of this post you should probably just kys

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>>134839113
It is not your logic I take issue with, anon.
It is the nigger in the picture. Fuck off with whatever you have to say if you're unironically posting pictures of fucking niggers

>>134843093

though im on your side:
you know nothing of the big bang, physics, nor hardly logic

>3)The world is the devil's domain

indeed

>>134840088
kek

>>134842906
It's actually not a contradiction. Not all actions are evil when compared to others. If you have just enough antidote for one infected child and there are two infected children and you make the choice randomly on who to give the antidote to, your choice was not evil either way. In this scenario both free will and the absence of evil exist. If God was all powerful the entire universe could be full of these kinds of decisions.

However, it's not entirely relevant because an omnipotent God can, as I said before, bend logic to whatever he desires. As a kind of proof of this let's look at the argument of the First Cause. Now, logically, something cannot come from nothing (as the Christian theologists propose). However, God is the exception. In all kinds of matters God's will can defy logic.

Also keep in mind that it's not entirely without precedent for God to not care about free will. Consider the Pharaoh of Egypt whose heart was made hard when considering to release the Jews. This is a clear interference in the decision making of man.

>>134839113
If humanity exists, why would they allow such evil as the holocaust? They are powerful enough to stop it, yet doesn't? Makes no sense.

>>134843702
I know quite a proportionate amount of information when it comes to physics actually. I'm surmising.

>>134839331
>claims to be educated and logical
>doesn't know Jesus was historical character with multiple Jewish, Roman and Greek sources

>>134843358
>Only logically inconsistent if we view it from our plane of existence.

It's logically inconsistent based on the words on the page. Logic doesn't require a particular perspective. A syllogism is true based on what is written alone. The words contradict themselves.

>>134843374
>Liquid water and water vapor are each water but are not each other.
No they aren't. They are both made up of water molecules. You're changing the statement. Are you saying that jesus is made up of god molecules in the same way that liquid water is made up of H20 molecules?


>>134843374
>A scientist is not a variable within an experiment but can act upon it
Wrong.
If the scientist acts upon it, he is a variable. His own effect must be taken into account. Scientists go to great lengths to try to minimize their own effect on the system. You can't totally remove it though.

>>134843358
>God existing outside of time is a way of saying God exists in a higher dimension of existence.
No. The reason god is timeless is because he is supposed to have existed in absence of time. Before time existed. And then at some point in history, he created the universe for no reason, with no cause. Of course, his action implies there was a time before he acted.

It doesn't make sense to be a timeless being that acts in time. Self contradictory.

alright, answer me this, religious fags.
you claimed that your god is almighty and all powerful.

Why can't he gives me a 4 right now?
huh?
i guess he's not so powerful then

>>134844435
Yes, the father son and the holy spirit are made of the same essence but are different formations.

A scientist setting up an experiment does not make him a variable but another example; Sound is massless however can exert force upon mass. God acts the same.

my mom is currently burning movies (dvds) that are not "christian."

Religion is a fucking disease. Might as well lose hope of ever achieving interstellar travel now.

>>134839113
I'm an atheist but why do people think that if God exists he has to conform to puny human sensibilities and reasoning? An allmighty creator would have a consciousness that is impossible to comprehend.

>>134843093
As for 2, why should the universe operate based on Human Understanding? "Everything needs a designer" is the worst argument I've ever heard. Religion is a human invention.

>>134844222

>I know quite a proportionate amount of information when it comes to physics actually. I'm surmising.

and yet, we have this unfortunate strawman:

>Nothing created nothing from nothing and nothing's nothing made something

>>134845686
>An allmighty creator would have a consciousness that is impossible to comprehend.

meta-nonfalsifiable

>>134845605
subjective

and sad

>>134845589
>A scientist setting up an experiment does not make him a variable but another example;
http://www.ece.rochester.edu/courses/ECE111/error_uncertainty.pdf
I invite you to read this document on error analysis. The scientist himself is always a factor when you take a measurement of anything.

>>134845589
>Yes, the father son and the holy spirit are made of the same essence but are different formations.
What do you mean by essence? That's not a molecule. In any case, most people don't believe as you do and that's because you're changing the statement from what is written on the page. " Jesus is made up of god molecules" is an entirely different statement from "Jesus is god".

>>134846157
>meta-nonfalsifiable
Welcome to religion.

>>134839113
Excuse repeats...
1.) Evil is caused by us being separate from God. God has remedied that through Jesus.
2.)Who caused God is not a rational question for a theist. God answers "I am". For now that is all we need to know.
3.) The "oppresser" (sic) already saved you though Jesus. You're welcome.

>>134846294
and yet, i pity OP
odd mix, no?

>>134844435
>It's logically inconsistent based on the words on the page. Logic doesn't require a particular perspective. A syllogism is true based on what is written alone. The words contradict themselves.
What are these words? Hebrew is a very delicate language with precision not seen in English. You've got to really get a concordance out to study each verse to the bone.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth
בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ.
bə-rê-šîṯ bā·rā ’ĕ·lō·hîm ’êṯ haš·šā·ma·yim wə·’êṯ hā·’ā·reṣ

bə-rê-šîṯ - In the beginning. http://biblehub. com/hebrew/bereshit_7225.htm
bā·rā - to create, make, form, or shape. http://biblehub. com/hebrew/bara_1254.htm
’ĕ·lō·hîm - referencing God as an elohim, a descriptor of existence outside of our reality. http://biblehub. com/hebrew/elohim_430.htm
’êṯ - Used to introduce a semantically definite direct object. http://biblehub. com/hebrew/et_853.htm
haš·šā·ma·yim - referring to both the sky and space. http://biblehub. com/hebrew/hashshamayim_8064.htm
wə·’êṯ - and the, Used to introduce a semantically definite direct object. http://biblehub. com/hebrew/veet_853.htm
hā·’ā·reṣ - Earth, that planet which we live on. http://biblehub. com/hebrew/haaretz_776.htm
(1/2)

So the christians have run away from logic, as usual. Logic and science is to christians as garlic is to vampires. So typical. For those brave enough to remain, let's really put things to the test now.

If this god of yours exists i challenge him to strike me down with a lightening bolt right now. Yes. If this creature you so desperately cling to actually exists and hears my challenge, why is he so impotent to act? Here I stand a freethinker, in open rebellion to this fabled god. And nothing happens.

You see? Here I am still.

(Of course christians will say hes sparing my life out of love -- then why did he not intervene and stop the holocaust if he cares so much about life? Is he not all-powerful?)

And you expect me to believe in your utterly irrational fairy tales. Fools.

>>134846573
Alright, so the god in the english language is contradictory.

I don't know about the one in the hebrew language. Maybe it isn't.

But unless you're a fucking kike who grew up learning ancient hebrew, you shouldn't be so confident in your ability to interpret it.

>>134846573
you didnt note that "Elohim" is a plural

>>134846775
>So the christians have run away from logic,

I am not a Christian, though I aspire to be.

and i run TOWARD logic

>>134846177
I admit, the scientist was a poor example but Sound is far more fitting and I wish to hear your refutation

>>134846177
Frankly I don't know much depth about the trinity; I'm not Catholic. However, the little I have read of Aquinas is very explanatory about this. Here is a quick search for some stuff
http://www.aquinasblog.com/16-trinity.html

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>>134839113
Asking questions dosnt mean that logic is on your side of belief.
It means that you dont have the answers.
Be as unlogical as theasts and preach what you cant prove.
You cant prove god and you cant disprove god.
FUCKING FEDORA.

Evil exists because we have free will and exist within a flawed material plane separated from God through the willful, sinful actions of our primordial souls.

2. God is eternal, without cause, as God is not a material or composite entity. Only the material and the temporal logically require causation.

3. Who says He wants to save you? Who says you even possess a soul? You're likely an animated lump of hyle lacking in the Divine Spark.

>>134846573
>No. The reason god is timeless is because he is supposed to have existed in absence of time. Before time existed. And then at some point in history, he created the universe for no reason, with no cause. Of course, his action implies there was a time before he acted.
In the beginning of our universe, we are told that there was God, and this beginning is the beginning of our timeline. God, through his means, molded the universe and it's basic elements and rules, and then we are left with a universe in a state in which both the heavens and the Earth exist. I do not see any syllogism here, the words themselves don't contradict the statement. God was in the beginning, it's not like we are told that the earth and heavens were there, then God created them. It's chronologically sound. What do you see that I do not?
(2/2)

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>>134839113
Logic explaining God:

In all the universe, there is always an opposite. a duality. In order to have one thing, you must have the opposite to explain it
Example: explaining light without darkness, or good without evil. They must coexist, or not at all

Knowing this, I give you this logical statement

Humans are fallible. We exist and then die; turn to dirt or ash. finite and "imperfect. Agreed?

Humans use language to explain the universe around them. Language is also fallible. I cannot perfectly convey my thought right now to you through language. Agreed?

Now what can explain the universe around us perfectly? Number can explain everything perfect. It can explain shapes perfectly, music perfectly, why atoms are they way they are all the way to the laws of the universe. Agreed?

Now, if there are "imperfect" beings that explain through an "imperfect" language to explain the universe
Then there is a ________ that uses a perfect language to explain the universe

What fits in the blank?

Also, there is a beautiful tedtalk explaining why evil in the world does not equal no benevolent God. You should do some theological research.

>>134846775
George Carlin use to end his shows with this bit. It was pointless then too.

>>134846982
none of that explains original evil

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I am not the lease bit surprised to see christians call me names when all I have done is appealed to logic and science.

This is what they always do. Atheism gave us science and freethinking, and christians have always been their to destroy it. It is simple history people, learn it. They continue to do the same even nowdays.

>>134847114
there is none that is objectiviable yet

>>134847225
Define evil.

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>>134839331
> "Dont use Ad Hominem"
> Sky worshipping Christians

>>134846779
>But unless you're a fucking kike who grew up learning ancient hebrew, you shouldn't be so confident in your ability to interpret it.
That's why we have 1900 years of Biblical scholars and background. This isn't new stuff, it's been boiled to the bone to find what resides within. Read some of the scholars if you want.
>>134846820
>you didnt note that "Elohim" is a plural
I though I made it clear through syntax, I apologize. Elohim is plural.

>>134839113
>oppressor in the sky
Kill yourself faggot

>>134847249
Oh I see...
>be anon
>come take me on you theist dildos
>I win I win

I bet you are typing your responses without reading anything.

>>134847249
sophistry

BUT while you logic and science is tantamount to flawless, it is incomplete, and still leaves us with:
*non-flasifiable

also godel's incompleteness theorem
etc etc

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Daily reminder that the Shroud of Turin was real

>>134846877
Look up Chuck Missler sometime, he's a wonderful teacher.

>>134847249
>Atheism gave us science and freethinking
I'm sure you are referring to the enlightenment here or the time period around it and you have divorced yourself from history. Nearly if not all of the great men of science of the day did it in the name of god - Faraday, Bacon, and most prominently Newton. All of their scientific work was done to understand why God operated the universe as it was. It was religious fervor that incited genius, not secular platitudes.

>>134847375
Now we have Elohim is either, the tree, or the three plus all angels (possibly just non-fallen)

>>134847289
rewrite your sentence so I may better understand

What are you referring to?

>>134839800

very good my brother in Christ.

It's sad that there's so many that have been deceived by scientism.

>>134841500
Pro tip:
They don't because they can't.

>>134847321
ah yes
sublime.

willfully-defiantly subverting God's will with substitution of your own

well, that is sin

evil is the persistence of that

>>134847249
How can I take your argument seriously when you say
>>134847249
>lease bit surprised, appealed to logic, always been their

>>134847599
>Now we have Elohim is either, the tree, or the three plus all angels (possibly just non-fallen)
It's conjecture, but I stand by that Elohim is a a descriptor of place of residence, such as American or Earthling. it's often used like we would use the term President to denote the president of the U.S.A. despite there being thousands of presidents of all kinds. An elohim is something that exists beyond our dimensional reality, Elohim is the God Head.

>>134847672
Thank you, in these days when the love of many grows cold we should burn twice as bright to warm the hearts we do come across.

>>134847249
>They continue to do the same even nowdays.
dude your stupid. We don't hate you because your an atheist, we hate you because you think your smart with your 6th grade edumacation

>>134839113
>theology 101 questions
You're an enormous faggot. That isn't ad hominem; it's fact.

>>134847800
Sorry to interject, but is it not simply "Gods" (masculine plural)

>>134847610
there is no objective proof/logic for anything of the divine, yet

nothing to prove it true OR false empirically nor mathematically

WHY IS RECAPTCHA MAKING ME SOLVE 2+ dozen street sign questions for every post!!!

>>134846904
>I admit, the scientist was a poor example but Sound is far more fitting and I wish to hear your refutation


Well sound (and more generally, a "wave") is a physical concept that describes the broad motion of particles that are bouncing into each other. It's a description of the pattern of motion that massive particles undertake. The pattern itself doesn't have mass, but the underlying particles do.
So, one way to address this is to say: All particles' motions can be described by a pattern which is itself mass less. And if one adopts the language of saying that the PATTERN of motion is the thing which carries the force, then you contradict yourself (within the model) by implying that the massive PARTICLES are the things which ought to be carrying force. .... Because within the phenomenon of sound moving through space, you still only have particles carrying forces to one another. That's what causes the phenomenon.

I would say that the PATTERN (sound) isn't a physical thing in itself, it's just a description of the general behavior of the physical things.

>>134847975
because you are too cheap to spend twenty dollars you fucking nigger

>>134847975
>WHY IS RECAPTCHA MAKING ME SOLVE 2+ dozen street sign questions for every post!!!

Deus vult

>>134847800
ah
USA is not plural
"president" is neither
neither "america" etc

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>>134847975
Did you not read the logical argument that I have presented? What part is objective? Perhaps I can hone my meaning further.

>>134847962
That's how most take it, but the risen spirit of Samuel is described as an Elohim, and I'm sure he isn't a God. I can't prove anything for sure and I wouldn't base doctrine of it but it's an interesting trail to go down. All in All I still know that Elohim definitely stands for the God Head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpf4-iHjXJo

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If OP pretensously lists various words used in logic and employs none of them correctly, then is an absolute fucking retard with zero comprehension of any concept relevant to the field of logic.

OP pretentiously lists various words used in logic and employs none of them correctly.

OP is an absolute fucking retard with zero comprehension of any concept relevant to the field of logic.

DEMONSTRATED FACT COURTESY OF AN ACTIAL LOGICIAN

>>134839113
If the holocaust had actually happened I would believe there is a God.

>>134848042
For example we could talk about the patterns that birds make while flying in a group.

The pattern doesn't have mass, but if they crashed into a building, it would break the glass.
I would say it's a mistake to attribute the broken glass to the bird pattern flying into it.... rather than saying it was a bird.

>>134848224

>What part is objective?

that is my point
some of you axioms are, but at some point before the conclusion your chain becomes subjective, and it is entirely just that through to the end

>>134848224
long story short:
"squaring the circle" is trivial compared to what you are attempting

>>134848166
Is the president of Australia not a president? What about the president of a company? Any can be called a president, but THE President always gives you a picture of the President of the United States. Same goes for American. Peruvians, Mexicans, Canadians, Cubans are all american(people of the Americas), but the people of the United States are widely known as the Americans. Make more sense?

OP that was weak, bro.

I'm an anti-theist and can actually prove God doesn't exist. Don't want to type it all out though.

People don't really believe in God. It's just a crutch. Religion helps people not fear death so much and other things. If Christians actually believed in Heaven they would celebrate when one of their relatives died from a heart attack or cancer. After all, the person allegedly went to Heaven. But Christians act all sad, don't they? They don't say, "WAHOO, my relative went to eternal paradise with God! They are no longer in this prison of the flesh. Let's celebrate!"

It's because they don't really believe in their own bullshit, bro.

>>134848224
>Perhaps I can hone my meaning further.
try writing clearly

>>134848458
Then be specific and refute what is exactly subjective.

>>134848504
I love math and number theory. Squaring the circle is just another case that tickles me. THAT statement is subjective

>>134848604
What is unclear?
Neither of you have given me examples

>>134848042
You've hit the nail on the head. The energy applied to the matter which creates sound does not have mass but still affects these particles. The only way (that you would ascent to) for god to interact with humans is by physical means and he must use molecules as a mode of transmission similar to energy using molecules as a mode of transmission.

>>134848590
>can actually prove God doesn't exist. Don't want to type it all out though.
Please do; also bad bait

>>134848590
>People don't really believe in God

Well, one person here really does.

>If Christians actually believed in Heaven they would celebrate when one of their relatives died from a heart attack or cancer.

I used to think this way, but as you get older you get less binary in your thinking. One can be happy for the person going home to God AND sad that they are forever gone from your mortal life.

>>134848749
But the other implication is that it's not inherently informative to talk about the pattern itself. It's just a shorthand description.

There's nothing that requires any reference to sound or any waves to describe the motions of particles in space.

I can consider the entire world as point particles without any loss of information.

>>134848722
>Neither of you have given me examples
Hone means to sharpen. Meaning isn't sharpened, it is clarified, supported or proved.

>>134848540
those leaders are still singular

>>134848722
>Then be specific and refute what is exactly subjective.

subjective and or false/nonfalsifiable/fallacious

start with this:
>In all the universe, there is always an opposite

non-falsifiable
we cannot observe beyond the obeservable
and thats just a drop in the bucket

also this:
>In order to have one thing, you must have the opposite to explain it

nope, non-falsifiable even on its own

>explaining light without darkness,

you could have one or the for an "eternity" in a closed spacetime without the other, the "possibility" of the other in either case being immaterial

dont forget im on your side, though

OP religious people are dumb and lack critical thinking. These questions will get you nowhere

>>134848833
but no pasta please

>>134848833

Eh, it's long, and I'm not in the mood. Don't give a fuck about this topic.

To put it simply: God doesn't exist because he CANNOT exist, just like a three-sided circle cannot exist.

>>134839113
>why would he allow evil such as cancer
not a fact. It is your opinion of what God should be.

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>>134849144
>just like a three-sided circle cannot exist.
Think outside the box

>>134839113
op you really are a faggot. You are too stupid to realise that your logic can be readily inverted and tat Christian majorities by your own logic have the right to treat you as a lesser being.

You reek of teen angst and are an intellectual vacuum. Slip your fedora on and fuck off. Pol is a Christian board.

>>134849144
That's a leap I'd love to watch you jump

>>134849034
And that has nothing to do with what I said

>>134849322
Anon for the win.

The ONLY thing useful about this fully tarded post is that it demonstrates that logicians may need to introduce a straw god fallacy. There are ZERO atheist logicians.

>>134839113
>who caused god
question not a fact
Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.

OP thinks God needs a cause but doesn't apply the same logic to the real world.
What caused the world? Your atheism sanitized cosmogony.

OP asks replies to be respectful then proceeds to ad hom in the pissiest most female passively aggressive way possible.

Does hypocrisy count as a fallacy?

Also, why do atheists always demand to be spoonfed by God? They claim to be these paragons of deep thought and then post things like OP in which a materialist makes a vain grasp at something deep, only to reveal how utterly handicapped he is in looking into anything beyond what little he is smart enough to observe.

>>134839113
Atheist arrogance is assuming an all-powerful deity would have to prove itself to them.

>>134839113
>really wants to "save" me
you assume to much, vessel fit only for destruction

>>134839113
1. There's also an evil god.
2. Eternal beings have no beginning.
3. God owes you nothing, saying that you need evidence means that you wouldn't follow your natural goodness unless under fear that you're punished, which makes you a cunt, if you put this excuse to god, don't be surprise he punishes you.

>>134849403
It does. You're saying god uses people like sound uses molecules..... But I'm saying you're falling for an illusion because there's no need to appeal to that model to describe the physical world.

Particles are all acting according to their physical laws and there's no need to reference a god.

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>>134839113
If you have no evidence for your claims that he doesn't exist; then you too will have to provide evidence, and thus you're wrong.

Also; there's more evidence for a God construct, than there is against it, and using appeal to ambiguity fallacies won't save you either, neither will your burden of proof avoidance.

>>134849081
CS Lewis. Christian. Professor of Logic, Oxford, Cambridge. What the fuck are you?

>>134839113
That's not logic. That's just you saying what God should do if your God exists. But if God does do what you say, you would be the God now wouldn't you?

>>134839113
As a Christian, I'll ask the same question I want to ask every Atheist.

Why don't you just kill yourself and get it over with? Without an afterlife to preserve the human consciouness, life is an ultimately meaningless and futile experience that is rendered utterly moot when you die and are unable to recount any of your memories, whether you were the best person in the world or the worst. All that's waiting for you is the unforgiving void of oblivion, no justice, no peace, nothing.

If god exists I will have a gold plated Ferrari delivered to my door right....

Now

Look, pure logic: no Ferrari, no god

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so the truth is the truth

The Truth?
Athietss can't handle the truth.
We are animals
Man is a wild animal living in the wild.
Which means all virtue all morality all culture and your logic comes from that wilderness.
When you step away from that all of it ALL OF IT falls to nothing.
Kant can't keep the wolves from your door lad.
Logic does not move people.
And so when IT ALL FALLS away it is war of all against all.

Get to Church sperg.
Who gives a shit if you found the one true golden rule.
Otherwise everything you hold dear will be torn from you including your logic.
and then people will gather and talk and work shit out. And just make gods again to guide them.
Your whole autist mind quest; nothing and forgotten forever.

>>134847795
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLp7vWB0TeY

>>134839113
Something cannot come from nothing. Yet here we are.

>>134848590
wrong

>>134839113
>1. If this god of yours exists, why would he allow evil such as cancer or the holocaust? He is powerful enough to stop it, yet doesn't? Makes no sense.
we do the evil to ourselves, not god does it. if he would prevent the evil there would be no free will. also the holocaust didnt happen but should have.

>2. If this god of yours exists, who caused god? How can you believe that god caused all of this, yet say that nothing caused god? It is unlogical. Again makes no sense.
you try to appeal causality onto an entity which isnt effected by causality. there is you error.

>3. If this god of yours exists, and if this oppresser in the sky really wants to "save" me, he could easily prove to me he exists. He could easily spell his name in the stars or perform a miracle. Yet he doesn't. Yet again makes no sense.
proof yourself to be worthy of salvation first by living a rightous live. than you will recieve salvation

>>134851071
*appeal=apply

>>134839113

A stupid meaningless quote for the brain-dead american public by a nigger, it's not even metaphoric in any way.

I don't mind anyone bashing monotheism, but assuming you understand logic simply because you take up an atheist assumption - which happens to be utterly irrelevant to the field of logic, is utterly offensive to any reasonable person whom is literate in formal logic.

OP helps nothing more than to demonstrate that only retards are atheist.

The statements that follow from the point of claiming to be pure logic are so infuriatingly illeterate that they aren't even intelligible enough to be wrong.

How is it atheists feel at liberty to assume themselves to be the denizens of logic based on an unverifiable meaningless religious position.

Sage

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>>134850182
It's a question of self-consistency: does G-d have to be held to the standards he applies to his creation ("made in my image"), or even the standards he applies to himself? For example, within the text of the Bible (and many extraneous texts), he is defiend as Love and Justice, incarnate.

But G-d is certainly capable of doing acts that, by human reasoning and logic, could not be possibly justified as 'Love" or "Justice". It is cliche, but how is the act of killing a child with an unpredictable natural disaster (outside the realm of "freedom of choice" often invoked for the presence of suffering in the world) possibly ethical, loving or just?

Well, the theist's response is obvious: human standards of ethics are arbitrary, and seperated by our imperfection from the Divine. G-d himself is the ultimate arbiter for morality and everything, and thus determines what is Ethical, Just or Loving, even if it can't be justified rationally in the human mind.

This, however, raises a disturbing possibility: if the morality and words of G-d are not necessarily understandable to our minds, that means its impossible to actually understand the Bible. When G-d says that Heaven is a realm of infinite joy, that could well mean it is a realm of infinite suffering, with the converse holding true for hell.

If the mind of G-d is incomprehensible and "works in mysterious ways), the total data content of the Bible drops to 0.

>>134849952
Not him

So you're saying sound doesn't exist

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>>134850285
Because what we have is utterly incredible. And maybe there is some means of persistence beyond the death of the body, but we'll never know. Oblivion is most likely, even if it is a horrific, horrific idea.

And that the alternative is horrific is not grounds for a belief.

>>134850796
Define nothing.

OP senpai, you're expecting the concept of God benevolent and bound by logic. (He's not!)
Without a well defined God, you're fighting an uphill battle where you have to disprove an infinite number of them.

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>>134851532
The burden of proof is upon any given theist to prove their particular god.

>>134851230
you are an idiot, all you need to understand is everything happens according to God. Without that acceptance you are forever circle-jerking.

>>134847795
>willfully-defiantly subverting God's will with substitution of your own
But it's God's will that we have free will, so you need a better definition of evil than that.

>>134851589
Wrong. The burden of proof falls to anyone making a claim. Faith is a private matter, and the curse. Of proof would only apply on someone proselytizing, such the atheist OP

>>134851418
No. I'm saying that somebody who speaks about sound should understand that it's an unnecessary descriptor that is only made out of personal convenience or a shortcut.

>>134851816
I think the 10 commandments is a pretty good one, he didn't smite sodom and gomorrah for nothing.

He told us not to eat the apple so obviously he didn't want us having free will, but if he's so powerful then he would already know we would be tricked into eating the apple despite us not knowing if eating the apple was even a good thing so he can't make up his mind then

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>>134839113

>Jesus didn't exist

Stopped reading right there. Opinion discarded.

Even atheists think you're a retard. You can't think critically enough to understand the Bible evidently.

Retard.

>>134851180
Couldnt have said it better my brutha

>>134851950
Yeah no it's on you. Your the one making the claim. Prove god

Your the one saying god is real so back it up. Also all your arguments work for the Muslims god so you also have to disprove that specific god as wel otherwise it could very well be him

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>>134839113

>>134851230
>This, however, raises a disturbing possibility: if the morality and words of G-d are not necessarily understandable to our minds, that means its impossible to actually understand the Bible. When G-d says that Heaven is a realm of infinite joy, that could well mean it is a realm of infinite suffering, with the converse holding true for hell.
Joy is a pretty straightforward concept, as is suffering. If God were to say heaven is filled with joy and hell is suffering when they are actually switched, that would be an outright deception, not misinterpretation.

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>>134852194

>>134849060
Oh you want to argue semantics? I am not interested. Please refute like >>134849077

>>134849077
Thank you for replying
>we cannot observe beyond the obeservable
I understand that. We can speculate from what we understand, though.

Let us say your existence consisted of observing an object. How would you be able to describe an object, if you had never not seen the object?
How could you describe the absence of the object, if there was no object to exist in the absence at any other point in time?
Like light; how can you illuminate, which means to provide or brighten with light, if there was no other state to brighten from? In order to have any value, there must be another value to define whatever it is being defined. That was my meaning of needing an opposite.
I hope this better explains my meaning

Having only one with the other being immaterial, still proves my point. You are still defining only one "whatever" by having to compare it to something else.

Damn internet went out for a bit

>>134852167
bet your life I claimed that god exists, then reread my posts, and kindly proceed your preferred means of self-termination.

>>134851026

>Mad Christ-stain

God doesn't exist, bro. Nothing supernatural exists.

Everyone secretly knows it. People don't really believe in God.

Imagine if I came up to you and said, "A man rose from the dead!" You would think, "That doesn't make sense. I don't believe that." That little voice doesn't turn off for religion.

Just because people tell you this dumb bullshit is true doesn't necessarily mean you buy it.

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>>134839113

excuse me but there is lots of evidence for my God

>1. If this god of yours exists, why would he allow evil such as cancer or the holocaust? He is powerful enough to stop it, yet doesn't? Makes no sense.

because chaos makes dank memes, and on the holocaust specifically, Lord Kek, being so wise, doesn't like jews since they were enslaved in ancient egypt

>2. If this god of yours exists, who caused god? How can you believe that god caused all of this, yet say that nothing caused god? It is unlogical. Again makes no sense.

his origins are so obscure no human knows, which proves he's real because he is a god of obscurity

>3. If this god of yours exists, and if this oppresser in the sky really wants to "save" me, he could easily prove to me he exists. He could easily spell his name in the stars or perform a miracle. Yet he doesn't. Yet again makes no sense.

if kek does not bless you with a get then he does not with you to have his divine knowledge

>>134849081
Who is Martin Luther again?

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>>134852574

>Projecting this hard

Western Civilization was built on the foundation that is the word of God. The resurrected son of God.

Just because you believe that doesn't mean other people do. Saying it doesn't make it true either, faggot.

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>>134852026
Sorry, I don't worship books or care much for referential definitions.
>He told us not to eat the apple so obviously he didn't want us having free will
He also gave us the capacity to disobey, put the apple within our grasp, gave us no inherent concept of Good and Evil and let a treacherous serpent run free in the Garden.
Don't take silly Jew stories which were ripped off from better Babylonian stories so literally and as the end-all-be-all.

>>134839113
1. If God is all powerful but humans have free will, taking it away from ANY of them under ANY circumstance would make free will pointless.

2. A God that can create all of time and space or any being that is truly omnipotent shouldn't be bound by what you understand about the universe. You can't comprehend God.

3. Kinda makes the whole "faith" thing pointless then doesn't it?

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>>134852656

>>134852574
>>134852167
see
>>134847114

>>134852722
>Western Civilization was built on the foundation that is the word of God. The resurrected son of God.

Not really. The Founding Fathers were deists; not theists. They used the word "Creator" for a reason.

>Just because you believe that doesn't mean other people do. Saying it doesn't make it true either, faggot.

God doesn't exist. You have zero proof for the existence of any deity.

Where's the proof?

>>134852736
Christianity only makes a little bit more sense when you ditch the entire first chapter as "jew shit". You also probably count Noah's ark and and the current human population coming from double mega incest as "Jew shit" as well. And in that case your no longer a christian your someone who only followers the new testament but that in itself is a disobedience against god since he wants you to follow both the old and the new.

But don't worry he knows if your going to hell or not even before you were born so any "proving" yourself to him to be worthy of heaven is worthless since he already knows

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>>134853005

>Quakers
>Deists

Pathetic. They weren't the only members of Western Civilization either, shithead. Prime example, the original pilgrims. Fucking weak dude.

The resurrection has stood the test of time. Im not going to spoon-feed someone like you who only seeks to destroy, not to learn. The evidence is there, all you have to do is look at it. You have google.

>>134851619
I don't understand. Could you please elaborate?

>>134851950
The null hypothesis would eb that there isn't a god, since assuming there is adds an extra element.

And I don't believe Atheists should proselytize, it's detrimental to individuals and societies. But, for the purposes of academic debate, the null hypothesis has to be that there is no G-d. Aquinas and Augustine would certainly agree.

>>134839113

1) Free will, & Satan.

2) This is the idea of god himself

3) Would interfere with 1 though he does with via his Prophets, Visions etc.

>>134839113
Who cares about holocaust? Nobody. Why god should?

>>134839113
>If this god of yours exists, why would he allow evil such as cancer or the holocaust? He is powerful enough to stop it, yet doesn't? Makes no sense.
Why didn't anyone else stop it?

>2. If this god of yours exists, who caused god? How can you believe that god caused all of this, yet say that nothing caused god? It is unlogical. Again makes no sense.
This false, simply because you cannot understand something doesn't make it untrue.

>3. If this god of yours exists, and if this oppresser in the sky really wants to "save" me, he could easily prove to me he exists. He could easily spell his name in the stars or perform a miracle. Yet he doesn't. Yet again makes no sense.
If God did come down to earth you would just think that his power is scientific in origin and that he is mortal like us. What we don't know is if God can come to earth, why would he need to send a son? What if God simply cannot be near us without killing us or blinding us? Moses's face was glowing when he came back from speaking to God, and when God followed Moses and his people through the dessert he hid himself in a fiery cloud in the sky.

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>>134852254
One would think that the concept of "love" is somewhat straightforward, and drowning a young girl would not be a loving act towards her. The explanation is that "G-d works in mysterious ways", meaning we can't understand G-d's notions of love, and by extension there's no guarantee of any understanding of his claims.

>>134853005
The Founding Fathers are not the basis of Western Civilziation, and even if they were, the ideals and foundations upon which their work was based is inseparable from the Christian mindset.

>>134853161
>your no longer a christian your someone who only followers the new testament but that in itself is a disobedience against god since he wants you to follow both the old and the new.
Maybe no longer a Pauline Christian, and who are you to say what God wants of us? You're from Australia, God's greatest mistake.

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>>134853446
>Why didn't anyone else stop it?
People are unable to stop certain forms of cancer.

>This false, simply because you cannot understand something doesn't make it untrue.
But this argument could be extended to anything, including the uncaused universe.

>If God did come down to earth you would just think that his power is scientific in origin and that he is mortal like us. What we don't know is if God can come to earth, why would he need to send a son? What if God simply cannot be near us without killing us or blinding us? Moses's face was glowing when he came back from speaking to God, and when God followed Moses and his people through the dessert he hid himself in a fiery cloud in the sky.
Are you suggesting that Christ is not G-d?

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>>134853585
>and who are you to say what God wants of us?
This illustrates my prior point about the word of G-d being effectively incomprehensible, since there is no requirement for us to understand the mindset of the universal arbiter.

>>134839113
Preach it brudda

>>134839113
1. Original sin. People are inherently wicked and this brought death and evil into the world. this one is rarely defended by the Sunday school brigade but the teachings clear and it isn't illogical. We are being punished including little kids with cancer (fucking gay twats)

2. No answer I don't really do metaphysics. Presumably god is eternal blah blah I dunno google it m8

3. You are redeemed and saved through faith and works, if there was evidence faith would be impossible, hence everyone would be going to hell. Wouldn't be good

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This meme is so dead. Look, if it is in somethings nature to be on the other side of the event horizon then we can never know if and if we ever crossed over and did know it we could never send that information back to the other side. It is in the nature of it to be so. Why the fuck are we talking about this shit still.

I get it, if you need to create a narrative to support your ego in order for it to parse mortality just enough to work a 9-5 then fine do it but keep that cowardly, immoral bull shit to yourself.

SJW BS came out of the failed religion power vacuum and even if Christianity become popular again there would be zero defense to stop it happening again or falling victim to worse. You are all weak and afraid whilst violently arguing over which ego crutch is better. JUST KYS already and argue about it beyond the veil and leave earth for those who are solely focused on LIFE.

Dont get me started on Buddhism, the only religion that mimics the dead.... no attachment, no pain, eternal blah blah that's just a description of the dead. What better way to spend life that to convince yourself you are already dead.

In summery, glass middle east and (((middle east))), glass Germany, destroy Vatican with non radiation producing ordnance, same with London and California (which at this point should just become a new UK colony seeing as their ideologies align so progressively well and let all these dummies debate this shit in their realm and leave the rest of us to cope with our mortality in peace.

>>134839113
>low IQ brainlett actually thinks these questions prove God doesn't exist

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>>134853270

I do seek to destroy. I admit it, I said I was an anti-theist. I'd like to see all religious influence on society abolished.

Your bullshit stories from the bronze age have no place in modern society. None of them are fucking true.

Jesus didn't resurrect. The Apostles stole his body from the tomb. Your stories are all false, friendo.

>>134841543
Stopped reading almost immediately. Disprove the miracle of Lanciano or shut your stupid ass whore mouth

>>134853797
>Original sin. People are inherently wicked and this brought death and evil into the world. this one is rarely defended by the Sunday school brigade but the teachings clear and it isn't illogical. We are being punished including little kids with cancer (fucking gay twats)
Would you consider the punishment of the innocent a just act. within conventional ethical conceits?

> and works
Oy vey, papist on the loose.

>>134853887
>Your bullshit stories from the bronze age have no place in modern society.
>t. edgy 13 year old

>>134839113
1. Evil is subjective and not opposite of god
2. God is all creator by definition
3. God is not morality. God is god.

Funny you should mention that. Because logic proves that my God does exist.

>>134848373


>If OP pretensously lists various

Fallacy of ad hominem.

>an absolute fucking retard

Fallacy of ad hominem.
Fallacy of assumption.
Fallacy of hasty generalization.

>zero comprehension of any concept relevant to the field of logic.

Logic is not a "field," it is an area of study. Once again fallacy of hasty generalization.

>>134853585
Then you agree the bible is not flawless it potentially could be 100% made up jew bullshit like you called the first few chapters and verses. So you can't even trust your holybook. All of Gods words are probably tainted by human writings and in that case you can't trust it to be Gods true words

Either the bible is flawless and Gods words or the bible has a very big chance to be totally wrong and though 2000 years of misinterpretation,translations writings 100 years after Jesus's death barbarian/Muslim invasion the orignal message is long dead

Logic also proves that it can be used to justify anything, regardless of the costs that the statement may impose on oneself or others, regardless of its objective benefit, and regardless of its consistency with reality.

>>134852409

>We can speculate from what we understand, though.

that is where it falls to not even conjecture, but indeed just speculation as you state unfortunately

>How could you describe the absence of the object, if there was no object to exist in the absence at any other point in time?

one state of perception-of-thing does not depend on its reverse, and vice versa, truly you would AT LEAST have difficulty describing the oppisite state if you had nevere xperienced it

thus was the confusion and shock and fear and pain in heaven when sin first appeared

and why the Almighty had such difficulty describing it to his linear subjects, all the angels, without demonstrating it, and thus was FORCED to allow the terrible result to be demonstrated

which is what is playing out here with earth once and for all eternity for all creation as a testament for when any of his creations ever asked why he never again has to say "trust me" but "look and behold at this terrible record"

>>134839113
1) what's the point of creating life in a perfect, safe world without bad consequences. Where's the logic in a being creating perfect, autonomous machines?
2)the entire point of the causation argument is that the only thing unburdened by the requirement of causation would have to be outside of the rules of our universe. So unless there's an entire universe that we are a sub universe of, our universes creation must have been caused.
3 god proves he exists all the fucking time. Just because you cover your eyes, it doesn't mean he's not showing you.

Logic and empirical reality also prove that you don't know the first thing about logic, that you only pretend to have it, and that your statement is just some bullshit form of obscurantism in order to spread your lies.

>>134852656
i am on your side

but:
>excuse me but there is lots of evidence for my God

none empirical
non scientific
etc

>>134854019
Under what proof?

Go die in a ditch and take this normie tier lefty pol shit with you to whatever afterlife will greet you.

>>134853005
>Not really. The Founding Fathers were deists; not theists.

no

some were, some yes, some no, some otherwise

>>134839113
ATTENTION
OP
THIS is the summary of why evil exist, i happened to type it out:
>>134854106

>>134851506
Before the big bang. If there even was a "big bang". The big bang doesn't make a lot of sense really. It in itself violates a lot of laws.

>>134854052
*"ad hom fallacy
or just "ad hom"
you can omit "fallcy of" from rest
and hasty generalization is "false generalization"

>Logic is not a "field," it is an area of study.

synonymous

>>134854305
You didn't define nothing, you defined the period in which nothing existed.

So, I would ask you again: what are the qualities of "nothing"?

In all likelihood, the Big Bang was just the beginning of the current "phase" of our universe, with nothing before it being recoverable.

>>134854019
sorry but it does not, and cannot, at least not yet

though as ive said to many others here:
im on your side

>>134854305
thats all baseless and non-falsifiable

>>134854095
False dilemma.

>>134854305
>>134854425

Anti-theist here. You really even shouldn't argue with that Christ-stain about the Big Bang.

You don't have to believe in the Big Bang to be irreligious. He brought it up... because stupid ass religious zealots use their religions to answer life's questions: like how we got here.

My position is that it's unrealistic to expect any of us to know how we got here. We're all likely in our 20s, 30s, or 40s, so can we really be expected to know what happened BILLIONS of years ago?

Fuck no. Don't even engage in Christ-stains when they talk about, "Well where did we come from?"

It doesn't prove their bronze age bullshit stories as correct anyway.

>>134854425
>>134854529
Everything needs a catalyst for it to happen. So what made the universe explode if there was no time and space for that catalyst to exist within? Not even Einstein accepted the big bang theory because something that transcends space, time and matter somehow created the universe and reality. I'd say the qualities of nothing are the absence of space, time and particles.

>>134852254
If there's no division between heaven and hell, confusing them wouldn't be deception.

>>134854752
>We're all likely in our 20s, 30s, or 40s, so can we really be expected to know what happened BILLIONS of years ago?

are you ok?

how about:
evidence?
logic?
scientific method?
empiricism?
sapience?
work of those before us?
photons directly from near that era of time?

>>134854817
>Everything needs a catalyst for it to happen.

non falsifiable

> Not even Einstein accepted the big bang theory

he also, at one point, didnt accept heisenberg's uncertainty principle also

>because something that transcends space, time and matter somehow created the universe and reality.

non-falsifiable

> I'd say the qualities of nothing are the absence of space, time and particles.

spit-balling

>>134839113
All those logical arguments were shit. The first is quickly pushed away by the idea of "God has put us here to challange us" basically be the better man. Second can be applied to the universe. Third is the same idea as the first and can be refuted.

I have a far superior paradoxical argument.

What is two plus two? Anyone who read that question is now forced to give me some form of an answer.

If I ask a question you must answer, whether that be by spoken language or ignoring it. But once I ask a question and you become aware of it your forced to answer me in anyway. If I ask God a question he must answer, if God is all powerful I cannot force him to give an answer, so he must either be not omniscient(not all powerful) or he's not all powerful.

OP you give atheists a bad name and don't get me started on the image.

>>134854106
>one state of perception-of-thing does not depend on its reverse, and vice versa
I agree, but if one state of being was all that existed, without another state (or opposite), not only would you have difficulty describing it, any being, the state would also be nothing, as there was nothing else to define the state in the first place
In math, can you have equation without having an answer? I don't mean that the answer is unknown, but non-existant?
1=1
1+x=2
vs
1=
The latter is illogical.


I disagree. God understood that the apple, or sin, existed, without humans having to understand the opposite. That is why he asked them to not taste the sin that we have today.

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>>134854752
Why are you an anti-theist?

>>134854817
Two things: A. this is reliant on the notion that time is real, which is far from a certainty. B. The notion of considering Universe is the eternal "Uncaused Cause" is no less absurd than attributing that status to G-d- in fact, it is far less absurd, since we know that the universe exists with a good degree of certainty.

>>134854674
Well no. If he called the first half of the old testament as Jewish bullshit how does he know if the rest isn't "Jewish bullshit" And if even one sentence is Jewish bullshit then the bible isn't a flawless book

>>134839113
It's not God's job to be your subject.

It's not God's job to personally show himself the way we show ourselves so that we can all agree that He exists.

>>134854817
If the catalyst couldn't exist, then it didn't exist, no? No problem.

>>134839113
read kant

>>134855255
And, if it isn't a flawless book, the whole premise is rendered null and void.

>>134855259
It kinda is. He doesn't exactly have a 9-5 wagecucking.

>>134855184

>In math, can you have equation without having an answer?

yes
>The latter is illogical.
>1=
not at all

its full meaning is written as:
1=[null set]

and then:

>not only would you have difficulty describing it, any being, the state would also be nothing, as there was nothing else to define the state in the first place

try to identify your fallacy which is your leap in logic there

>>134839113
Logic proves your morals are arbitrary, whether based on a holy book or not.

>>134855189
>s-shit ain't real dats why god does not exist

>>134854894

I've been owning you religious zealots this entire topic.

It's easy. You want to know why? Because you are no different from all those other religions you discredit.

You're Christian, so you think Judaism is a false religion and all its adherents got duped into believing it. You think Islam is a false religion and all its adherents got duped into believing it. You think Buddhism is a false religion and all its adherents got duped into believing it. Etc.

All these billions of intelligent adult human beings got duped into believing false religions, and yet *you*, somehow, chose the correct one.


Hahahahahaha. Nah. You were duped just like the rest of 'em. None of these bullshit stories are true.

That's why I will *always* win against you, and some society is becoming more and more irreligious. It's only a matter of time until these stupid old stories are forgotten once and for all.

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so many fallacies being bandeed about here.


>>134849486
>OP thinks God needs a cause but doesn't apply the same logic to the real world.
>What caused the world? Your atheism sanitized cosmogony.

Fallacy of false analogy. We now know from science that the world came from the big bang. Have you been living in a cave? We've known this the 60s. As Einstein put it, "what need is there, then, for a god?"

>Also, why do atheists always demand to be spoonfed by God? They claim to be these paragons of deep thought and then post things like OP in which a materialist makes a vain grasp at something deep, only to reveal how utterly handicapped he is in looking into anything beyond what little he is smart enough to observe.

Fallacy of ad hominem. You couldn't resist could you? Your attack on me makes no sense anyway. If this strange god of yours wants to "save" me as you allege he does, then he is free to come down here and make himself known.

He is all powerful, this god of yours, is he not? then lets see him in action. lets see him perform a miracle for me. but he doesn't.

oh gee, i wonder why. because it is a creature that doesn't actually exist in reality.

Im atheist and anytime I hear atheists shitting on christianity I cringe so fucking hard.
Christianity and religious criticism is the lowest hanging fruit on the criticism tree, attack islam if you think religion is so bad.
Atheism is just so cringy and this thread makes me ashamed.

>>134855443
Tell me faggot, what are your morals and why do you believe they're the correct ones?

>>134855440
Why do atheists believe in religion? Why do you prioritize attacking the dogma of God over all others dogmas?

>>134855454
I wonder (((who))) benefits from this?

>>134855440

>I've been owning you religious zealots this entire topic.

....

>It's easy. You want to know why? Because you are no different from all those other religions you discredit.

sophistry

>You're Christian,

click my ID, see what i say regarding myself
"i am not a Christian, though I aspire to be"

>Judaism is a false religion

it is, but was not always

>All these billions of intelligent adult human beings got duped into believing false religions, and yet *you*, somehow, chose the correct one.

strawman

note the Bible passage, and this is Christ speaking (paraphrase) "it is not because you chose me, but because I chose you"

> You were duped just like the rest of 'em. None of these bullshit stories are true.

*proof by assertion
*handwavium
*ad lapidem

>That's why I will *always* win against you,

above 3 fallacies * 2

>>134841500
Because all the books of the bible were later compiled and edited before being physically written down. These would have been people aware of the stories enough to manipulate the tellings and details so as to appear to be prophetic. It's actually trivially simple if you aren't ideologically blinded. I say this as a man who has personally spoken with the spirit of Christ and know the beauty of divine forgiveness. Stop making everybody look retarded by refusing to question your faith in meaningful and deliberate ways, retard.

>>134855440
Also it's funny how where they grew up and their geographical location their religion just had to be dominate where they are. I mean Albania is full of wrong sinful Muslims but a few kilometers over the border there's heaps of rightful and correct Greek Orthodox people.

>>134839113
>If this god of yours exists, why would he allow evil such as cancer or the holocaust?
Integer overflow.

>If this god of yours exists, who caused god?
A meta-god.

Christians often complain about atheism in that its a belief that something came from nothing, so they believe a creator is necessary. However they say this "creator" created himself or is everlasting.

>>134855454
Islam is way too easy. Fucking Sun sets in murky waters and big M flew to moon on a pegasus. Christianity is a bit more fun with their god works in mysterious ways bullshit.

>>134855683
>implying
I shit over all ideologies. Communism, fascism, anarchy, capitalism.

>>134855434
Strawm an.

>>134839113
Says...a nigger.

You aren't that bright if that's how you make important life decisions.

>>134855683

I'm not an atheist.

I'm an anti-theist. I oppose any beliefs in the supernatural.

>>134855370
1=
is not the same as
1=[null set]

Null set is still defining 1 having no members. You are attributing value (in this case, no values) to equal 1

Is that wrong?

>>134855999
>I'm an anti-theist. I oppose any beliefs in the supernatural.
So essentially, you're a zealot pushing your morality on other people?

>>134839113
1. You haven't read the Bible
2. You haven't read the Bible
3. You don't know what Google is

>>134855999
You're a heretic says the Christian, you don't believe in God
You're a heretic says the Muslim, you don't believe in God
You're a heretic says the anti-theist, you believe in a God

>>134839113
tips fedora

1, 2, and 3 are all atrocious logic on your part

the abrahamic conception of "god" is not the only one

>>134855593

>Tell me faggot

There you go with the logical fallacy of ad hominem again.

>what are your morals and why do you believe they're the correct ones?

If you know anything of science, you would know that morals evolved. Scientists have known this for decades.

As such, we know morality is relative. Some cultures think x is bad, some cultures think x is good. Pretty obvious.

For you to even say there are "correct" morals reveals your utter lack of education. You need to educate yourself before you jump to conclusions.

Try reading some Nietzsche (philosopher) and Richard Dawkins (leading scientist) instead of jacking off to video games in your moms basement.

>>134856081

>Is that wrong?

yes, because [null set] == []
which should be more to your liking

>>134856395
Kek, faggot you think you can lecture me? Moldbug owned Dawkins, how about you read his work instead.

>>134856395
>science backs everything I believe in
>i just believe everything these scientists say, it's completely different from faith

>>134839113
But black people do need to respect the KKK's right to exist. It's called freedom of speech. You don't have to like or agree with what anyone says or believes, but you can't interfere with their right to believe it.

Your own image proves the point, retard.

>>134856395
>There you go with the logical fallacy of ad hominem again.
Using insults isn't ad homineme you retard. Ad hominem is claiming that you being a retard makes your argument invalid, which is not what I am doing.

>>134855255
He didn't. Christians aren't Muslims, we don't believe the Bible was hand-written by God, it was compiled and written by men based on divergent oral traditions. Only simpletons make an idol of the Bible.

>>134856486

>it's completely different from faith


indeed
science is from empiricism + logic/reason

>>134856650
Then how do you establish the veracity of any given claim, passage or book of the Bible? Why do yo utrust the Nicene compilation over any other?

>>134856575
difference between
>ad hom fallacy

and merely:
>ad hom

>>134856147

I haven't talked about morality at all. It doesn't really have anything to do with religion. Morality is just an agreed upon set of rules for "good" human conduct.

I've mainly talked about stupid old stories that defy a person's common sense.

As I said, if I came to you and said, "A man rose from the dead!" you would think, "Hey that doesn't make sense. I don't believe him."

That little voice inside your head doesn't turn off for religion. You know these stories aren't true.

And, just so I'm not spending too much time arguing with Christ-stains and their nonsense, I'd like to point out a way in which irreligious people have made advancements in modern times: we've made progress in military proselytizing and religious coercion. We're winning the fight, one small step at a time. We can only do so much with so many brain-dead religious zealots in society.

>>134839113

1. Free will. He gave us all the tools we need to fix every problem. We just need to use them. Unfortunately human greed and evil keeps that from happening.

2. God caused himself.

3. God isn't going to do your homework for you. Part of the purpose of life is struggle, suffering, fear and doubt. Passing through the fires to temper your soul. To make you worthy of being with God when you leave this life.

God bless you brother. I hope you find what you're looking for. Best of luck on your journey.

File: download (12).jpg (4KB, 171x171px) Image search: [Google]

4KB, 171x171px

>>134839113
>evil such as cancer or the hall of cost

>>134851230
What I find entertaining is that you have absolutely zero proof God does not exist yet you believe he does not. We cannot know whether God exists or not making you as clueless as anyone else. The only sensible option is to consider either possibility to be true. You are so stubborn and stupid you have made a verdict on something that is beyond your comprehension.

>>134856738
>Nicene compilation over any other?

i dont :)
further it is because i reckon nicea is straight from the dragon

>>134856692
>That little voice inside your head doesn't turn off for religion. You know these stories aren't true.
So fucking what, I don't care if someone believes in fairy tales. I care whether they want to compel me to believe something or act in a certain way. Whether you use science as a justification or religion, I don't give a shit, it's an attempt to force me to submit regardless.

>We're winning the fight, one small step at a time. We can only do so much with so many brain-dead religious zealots in society.
Fuck off, you aren't any different than them no matter how much you claim otherwise.

>>134856747
Yes, fair enough. I should have written fallacy.

>>134839113

> logic proves your god doesn't exi-

Science proves we live in a computer simulation. History proves we're running an evangelical christian software program.

> god doesn't exist.

Perhaps outside of the simulation, sure. But inside of the simulation there is a Jesus and he is coming back. Sorry famalam, I didn't write the software program.

> B-but organized religion versions of God's make him out to be an asshole.

Yeah. They're wrong.

>>134856249

I have read every word of the bible, I have studied it multiple times, and I can tell you as a former confirmed christian it is a book of absolute garbage and zero value.

It is just fairy tales invented by groups of christians. This is why no scientists or educated intellectuals bother with it. We have much more important things to think about. \


We are living in an age of high speed internet and stem cell technology, and you are stuck back in your primitive ways still thinking about an ancient book of fables. Yeah. Sure. Giants really existed. Snakes used to talk. Right. Gotcha. Good luck with that.

Let the rest of us moderns continue evolving, while you read that absurd ancient storybook in your moms basement. Lol.

>>134856896
you linked my post.... but those quotes are not mine

god debunked with simple logic


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEu3lHRcbYg

>>134856820
Indeed. The existence of God is as possible as ancient Egyptian space pyramids.

>>134856922
Fuck off to your electric cars Musk.