A Question for you real Communists out there.

First of all learn the difference between a socialist state and a communist society.

>>134685736
everyone one that says "not real communsim" (or "not real capitalism, it was corporatism!" for the capitalist one). doesnt know what is up with their ideologies.

all that you mentioned were socialist marxist-leninism (and maoist), no dont. everyone that says otherwise just wanna dodge some killcounts.

but people always use the "no true scotsman" falacy willy nilly. if people say that china today is communist and people say no, the other (most of the time capitalists) side screams "no true scotsman" eventhough the atributes of the idea of communism are very different to the real political and economic state of china

>>134686969
>one of communism endgames is no money
show me where that happened

>>134687266
woops, i meant socialism.

also a lot of small spanish, russian and tibetan villages dont use money and have a communism like society. would you call them communist?

>>134687991
if they fall in the definition, yes

>Stealing people's money on a mass scale
>parasites multiply
>host dies
>parasites die en mass
Rinse and repeat

>>134688864
that's a nice description of capitalism

>>134689532
This

>>134689532
Communism*

>>134689532
WTF you talking about? Communists don't have money.

>>134689841
>communism
>money
your argument is invalid

>>134689532
>what is taxation

>>134686903
>Socialism fails
But that wasn't real communism!
>Communism fails
But that wasn't real socialism!

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>>134685736
I say try all kinds of communism first. How do we know which one is better without trying? Make each communism happen.

>money
>property
your argument is invalid.

>>134690260
theft

>>134690260
ahhh, taxes. another capitalistic thing

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>>134690739
>from each according to his ability, to each according to his need
>Not de facto (and unfair) taxation

>>134690457
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh-4gsDjAKg

>>134691916
>you atually need more that you need
also
>posting Orwell's example of a failed communism attempt

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>>134689532
Sounds like we need Distributism then.

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>>134692204
>You think you know what any one individual needs
also
>Posting that every example of communism we have data on isn't real communism.

>>134692553
>You think you know what any one individual needs
you don't get communism at all. and you apparently don't get Orwell's book as well

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>>134692694
You also have Orwell's life to take into account.

Not everything is black or white.

>>134692908
>slowly pushing the subject further away from the root
i see where this is going. maybe educate yourself on how it would work so you won't write stupid crap like
>You think you know what any one individual needs

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>>134692694
>You don't know what you're talking about.

Just admit that you've fallen in love with a retarded ideology. You want to believe Communism can do no wrong, even though it has ALWAYS been a disaster. The sheer cost of life to try to get your pipe dream implemented is the largest violation of human rights int he history of humanity. You will bend over backwards to try to convince others that it didn't cause the deaths of nearly 100 million people last century.

The danger with intellectuals is that they fall in love with their own ideas. You are incapable of reason or logic, just like all marxists.

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>>134685736

It's true that Communists are the biggest offenders of the no True Scotsmen fallacy, but the core principle is that they want to remove class from society. Of course, there will need to be a certain cadre of committed partisans who must take power to facilitate the transition into a true Communist society, but that's just a temporary measure. Like Cincinnatus, they will give up all that power once every last human being on the planet agrees with them about absolutely everything.

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>>134685736
>So if every example of Communism we bring up wasn't real communism
No government of Communists has ever claimed to have created Communism, the claim was only ever as far as Socialism. So this is what is meant when people say Communism has never existed.

You need to understand Marxist ideology otherwise it will not make sense to you.

Capitalism leads to Socialism, Socialism leads to Communism.

Communist governments are governments with the stated aim of creating Communism. Which means advancing from Capitalism to Socialism to Communism. The USSR claimed to have created Socialism, it never claimed it had reached Communism.

>Mao, Vladimir, Castro, and Chávez?
Chavez was not a Communist, he believed in Bolivarianism which is populism mixed with anti-imperialist sentiments.

Also all the governments which have existed and have been Communist have also been Marxist-Leninist in form and not other forms of Marxism. Which is why some who are Communist might argue their Communism has not been tried, because they do not believe in Marxist-Leninism.

There is also the issue of revisionism, for example most Communist governments from Khrushchev onward were revisionist, meaning they felt that Socialism and Capitalism could coexist. This contradicts Marx's teachings so many also feel that their governments were not Communist ones.

I am a member of the Communist Party in Russia, so feel free to ask questions to me and I will answer them.

>>134693205
>even though it has ALWAYS been a disaster
always 0 examples
>the largest violation of human rights int he history of humanity
nice propaganda picture. fits your flag
>death argument
really? really?!

>>134693231
>They will only give up power once they've attained absolute power and control over everything.

"solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant." - "They make a desert and they call it peace."

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>>134690464
How about we try Distributism first, it sounds like the least likely to end in disaster.

>>134693527
You cannot separate the real attempts of communism and whatever justification for communism you find convenient. You have no responses for these arguments. You're simply trying to dismiss them so you don't have to refute them.

Not that I believe you'll change anyway. You've drank the koolaid and whatever attempted "revolution" comes out of this current wave of retarded marxism will only end in atrocities and people like you will still claim victimhood like you always do.

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>>134693405

I can elaborate on this for you guys. A government transitioning out of a capitalist society is a socialist society. Once there are no more problems in your utopian society, it is suddenly a Communist society. If your society has problems again, it is suddenly a Socialist society. So all the problems associated with adopting Communism are actually problems with Socialism, not Communism. It is extremely convenient because you can blame every problem with your system on another system. It's a lot like owning a dog solely for the purpose of blaming your farts on the dog.

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>>134685736
it isnt about bringing the real communism, given human nature its not possible, so all it is is a dream they love their dream and love it so much that they convince themselves that it is possible but the truth is aslong as man continues its dreaded existence it will never find peace.

>>134693962
>real attempts of communism
except there was never any. they didn't even went to socialism level. not to mention that noone ever tried to call it communism
and fyi: i know the weak points in communism. but i also know that your beloved capitalism is cancerous and self-destructive and sooner or later you'll have to deal with communism, whether you like it or not

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>>134694350
>not to mention that noone ever tried to call it communism
Okay come on now, are you seriously going to say that North Korea, Cuba, the USSR, and China don't call themselves communist?

>but i also know that your beloved capitalism is cancerous and self-destructive and sooner or later you'll have to deal with communism
You kind of argue against yourself though, because communism has never even gotten to the socialism level, as you said, so the supposed "threat" of communism is all but non-existent.

>>134694350

>they didn't even went to socialism level. not to mention that noone ever tried to call it communism

CONVENIENT

>i also know that your beloved capitalism is cancerous and self-destructive and sooner or later you'll have to deal with communism, whether you like it or not

Even Marx couldn't explain what made the transition inevitable, nor does it even make sense to call it that now that modern countries are post-industrial. The means of production are automated and the proletariat work service jobs. All you're fighting against now are markets, which are the one economic tool that indisputably work.

>>134693405
Are all real world applications of Marxist socialist theory inherently Leninist? Isn't pure Marxist theory necessarily un-practicable because it is just as much a historical theory as it is an economic theory? Like, you can't just insert your society into the middle of a multi-generational, long-unfolding
process that Marxist theory professes to describe

>>134694675
>Are all real world applications of Marxist socialist theory inherently Leninist?
All successful ones are because Leninism is the only method for organisation that works. Other methods have always failed.

>Isn't pure Marxist theory necessarily un-practicable because it is just as much a historical theory as it is an economic theory?
Well if you mean it is determinist, then no. People can choose to stop Socialism from happening, there is always choice there. What Marx presents is that there are certain forces in society which lead towards the revolutionary forces changing society, but revolution is done by people and people can be stopped. Marx also talks about stagnant societies in his works, ones which never change, he identified those as the asiatic despotisms.

>>134689532
>no u

>>134694627
>>134694647
nope, nobody ever called it ommunism. there were communstic parties but no communistic country
>"threat" of communism is all but non-existent.
capitalism will force it. this or complete totalitarism, which is very unlikely but still
>>134694647
>Even Marx couldn't explain
because he never saw the 21st century. he just knew that it'll happen
ask yourself where the automation ends

>>134694350
You'll not find a perfect system in a chaotic world. Capitalism is the closest thing we have; as it rewards merit that is naturally valuable according to market forces. It's robust, it serves it's purposes and the lives of the poorest people in the world are orders of magnitude better because of capitalism. Capitalism creates first world problems; which is to say problems of excess; we have obese poor people.

Understand this: IF communism every get's established, it will be naturally and peacefully because capitalism allowed it to happen through technological development. No dipshit dictators, no revolutionaries, no useful idiots necessary.

>>134693405
my question is why did you kill the tsar.

t. White Emigre in US

>>134695260
Because the white army was near the area and there was a danger of him being freed and used as a rallying point for the white armies which were at that point divided.

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>>134695328
ok fair enough

but what's your problem with religion in general? Religion kept us strong and morally healthy for many centuries.

> inb4 communist wiped out religion
many people were secretly christian in those times too

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>>134695228
>capitalism will force it. this or complete totalitarism
There's always fascism and distributism.

>>134695259
>You'll not find a perfect system in a chaotic world. Capitalism is the closest thing we have
you have to be completely blind and deaf to seriously believe this

>>134695487
My issue is with religion being used by reactionary forces.

>>134695524
no way. there will be absolute one at the top

>>134695591
because religion is tradition which is essentially anti-progressive?

also general russia question. is the army decent again or is it still perestroika level?

>>134695228

>because he never saw the 21st century. he just knew that it'll happen

He couldn't explain what made it inevitable in his own time. It's a major internal inconsistency with Marx.

>there were communstic parties but no communistic country

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

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>>134686903
>First of all learn the difference between a socialist state and a communist society.
Socialism is the Stepping stone to Communism, That transition is necessary for the state to be set up

>>134695705
>because religion is tradition which is essentially anti-progressive?
Define progressive. Issue is with the ruling class being an alliance with the religious organisations. Example of it in modern Russia would be Putin and his control of the Orthodox church.

>is the army decent again or is it still perestroika level?
The army is currently being modernised, it is much improved over what it was.

>>134695721
>He couldn't explain what made it inevitable in his own time
because
>he never saw the 21st century
how could he, or anyone back then, predict how will the world look like in 21st century?
look at all the technology we have. half of it was considered science fiction and yet here it is surrounding us

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>>134692492
ayayayayayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

Rejoice, for Christ is risen!

>>134695533
>The world we have now is literally the worst time in human history

YOU have to be a fucking delusional fuckwit to believe this. You're sitting in front of a magical light box talking to people elsewhere in the world about how terrible capitalism is. You're an idiot; an ideologue. This is what I'm talking about when I say you're incapable of reason or logic.

I honestly can't understand how someone can be so hyperbolic in their worldview. Where did you pick up communism? Where did you learn about all this?

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>>134695659
Right, Distributism it is then.

>>134695858
for Russia i'm monarchist. I think that's the only way it will survive. I like the idea of a "symphony of church and state" vs "separation of church and state" for the simple reason is that the latter is essentially atheistic govt. Also i'm not really aware about the communist party, but don't they essentially want Brezhnev again?

Idk some of my family were in communist Russia and it sounds like a shithole desu.

Yeah i'm asking because I would join Russian army if russians wouldn't kill me for being slightly american.

>>134695979

I literally just said in his own time. The point is his theories do not make sense even in the context he is presenting them. That is what internal inconsistency is. It's a major reason why Marxism is not taken seriously outside of social science.

>>134695819
I honestly don't see why they're treated as different ideologies. The purpose of socialism is to establish communism. Why is it not just considered a transitory phase of communism?

>>134696195
>Also i'm not really aware about the communist party, but don't they essentially want Brezhnev again?
No, it is Socialism for the 21st century with different economic setup and without revisionism or denouncing the legacy of Stalin for example.

>>134696316
Because Socialism in Marxist terminology has a specific meaning which it does not mean in general use or by non-Marxist Socialists.

>>134695533
Why?

>>134696340
but do you agree that Putin did good stuff for Russia like get it out of the shithole that it was in the 1990's

>>134696163

Marxists are not known for their close connection with reality.

>>134696421
I think whole shithole of the 90s could have been avoided if Gorbachev had never come to power and people like Yeltsin had been shot.

Also Putin has not solved many of the problems of Russia, just pushed them under the rugs or only done minor things to tackle big issues.

>>134696532
i mean he did take out the oligarchs.

>>134696564
He took out the ones he did not like, but he has plenty of oligarch friends who still control Russian economy.

>>134696163
so you have a major disability after all
why do you think i sit comfily on my ass, in front of a magical box, enjoying my tea and shit?
because i was born in an artificial 1st world society, build on top of povery, wars, hunger, slavery, diseases and death. at this very moment over a 100 of people swallow their sweat and tears so you can feel as comfily as me and type any kind of bullshit you want. get fucking real

>>134696306
did you actually bother to read his work?

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>>134696115
Amen brother.

>>134696406
Not him, but I think Chomsky describes how capitalism is shit, in a very good way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mxp_wgFWQo

>>134696193
either full freedom or complete slavery
well, there's also an extinction option

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>>134697148
I choose full freedom. I choose distributism.

>>134697213
that's not full freedom

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>>134697356
Yes it is.

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>>134696687

>build on top of povery, wars, hunger, slavery, diseases and death. at this very moment over a 100 of people swallow their sweat and tears

Read a little more history and you'll realize that every successful system is built on that because weaker societies are absorbed by stronger ones and building a compassionate system is the first step in going extinct. There's a reason why the applied versions (as opposed to the academic versions) of utopian systems always have this world-conquest mandate built into them, and it is because they realize that their idealism makes them noncompetitive.

>>134696761

Unlike every Communist I have ever met, yes. He explains the incentive for industrial workers to rise up. He does not explain why it must inevitably happen. Hell, even the incentives he lays out do not make sense outside of the context of 19th century German industrial workers.

>>134685736

Your pic related isn't a real communist either btw. Immortal loli nip imperialist.

>>134696687
>Lazy fuck

I'm actually taking a break from working in my shop, because I have to work to provide for myself. I'm probably closer to what you would consider a proletariat than you are and I understand your ideology is fucking retarded.

But go on, keep virtue signaling and pretending like you're a virtuous person crusading on behalf of the poor oppressed masses. I'm sure they'll give you the chance to pat yourself on the back just before they line you up with the rest of the bourgeoisie to be shot.

>>134697388
close but no cigar

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>>134685736

Communism is designed to Fail & causes Mass Death.

[KB's: http://archive.4plebs.org/_/search/subject/knowledge%20bomb/username/anonymous5/tripcode/%21%219O2tecpDHQ6/]

Countries collapsing due to Communism is the whole objective of Communism.

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>>134697486
Closer than communism.

>>134685736
>Mao, Vladimir, Castro, and Chávez
>real communism
The fuck are you talking about bro. Look up Kropotkin and Bakunin.

>>134685736
I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you’re referring to as Socialism, is in fact, Marxist-Leninism, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, Marxism plus Leninism. Marxism-Leninism is not an ideology unto itself, but rather another political ideology of a fully functioning political sect made useful by the Marxist philosophies, works and theories comprising a full political philosophy.
Many people live under a modified version of Marxism every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the type of Marxism which is widely used today is often called “Socialism”, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the Marxist philosophy, developed by Karl Marx. There really is a Socialism, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the political philosophy they know.
Socialism is the government: the instructions in the system that allocate the nation’s resources to where they are needed. The government is an essential part of a nation, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete political system. Socialism is normally used in combination with Marxist philosophy and principles: the whole system is basically Marxism with Leninism added, or Marxism-Leninism. All the so-called “Socialism” variants are really just variants of Marxism-Leninism.

>>134697391
>every successful system is built on that
yes, and capitalism made the gap as stupidly big as possible. we have people who can't buy a lolipop and people who can buy an entire country. we got as far from equality and made so many social layers as possible
>He does not explain why it must inevitably happen
because he didn't predit that we'll end up this way. if he saw the technology, he'd call ti an answer right away

>>134697406
wow, so you have a shop. brilliant
did you build it? do you manage it? do you supply it?
and my job is even more "civilised" than yours
>>134697547
>ownership
no cigar

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>>134697773
>lists 12 failed socialist societies
Well Fuck

>>134697816
>>134697816
>>134697816

Equality isn't the goal faggot, getting as much work done as possible is. I'd rather have someone 1000x richer than me and running water than have everything degenerate into genocide and starvation like every single communist attempt ever. What do you communist cunts not understand about alignment of incentives to make people work properly.

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>>134698079
>no cigar
>not giving people the freedom to own
Welp...close, but no cigar.

>>134697816

>yes, and capitalism made the gap as stupidly big as possible

Looking at the gap is not useful on its own unless you're making relative comparisons for a Gini Coefficient analysis. It is not a useful metric on its own for the purpose of assessing quality of life.

You can have perfect equality where nobody has access to any resources, and you can have massive inequality where even the poorest people have access to luxury goods. Social layers are inevitable in a hierarchical species, even lobsters do this.

>e didn't predit that we'll end up this way

Again, you're not reading this properly. The point is he did not explain how his system would work even for the 19th century industrial workers in Germany he was talking about. The process he laid out didn't even make logical sense for them, much less anyone else.

>>134698134
equality in the system, you moron. stop cherry picking
>than have everything degenerate into genocide and starvation like every single communist attempt ever
nice propaganda. who taught you that?
>>134698231
>you need to own to feed your greed
still no cigar

>>134698079
did you build it? do you manage it? do you supply it?

Yes, yes and yes. And I'm remunerated for my expertise, investment and effort via capitalism.

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>>134698439
>you need to own to feed your greed
Everyone should be able to own. That's freedom. No cigar for you.

>>134698326
it's about spreading resources between everyone. like, who the fuck needs 30 cars?

>>134698511
>Yes, yes and yes
wonderful. what materials you used for construction? what kind of supplies you provide?

>>134698087
These societies are being repressed right from the get go in most cases, though.
Same as it was with USSR
http://www.centrosraffa.org/public/bb6ba675-6bef-4182-bb89-339ae1f7e792.pdf
Or if you want a more recent example, take a look at Libya.

>>134697148
I don't like the extinction option, which is why I'm against communism.

>>134698526
that's what you think
but ask yourself what do you really own?

>>134698628
Is the implication here that if any one pert of the entirety of all the logistics associated with my work isn't done by me, then I'm exploiting someone somewhere or something, even though I've either HAVE done it myself or I've remunerated others for providing it?

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>>134698709
>but ask yourself what do you really own?
What a man and his family can reasonably use to work and make a living without needing to hire other people or make a coop.

>>134698439
>>134698439
>>134698439

Communist societies get less work done, it's really not fucking rocket science.

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>>134692192
>mao did more good than harm

Lmao. The economy was in constant stagnation and people starving until Deng fixed Mao's fuckups and dropped the shitty socialism meme and embraced capitalism in the late 70s. Only then did the Chinese GDP per capita skyrocket and hundreds of millions of Chinese got out of poverty.

There's a reason the Chinese love capitalism more than Americans: http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/13/news/economy/capitalism-china-likes-more-than-us/index.html

Communists are so fucking stupid.

>>134698858
yes, yes you do
otherwise what would you have? can you actually live on your own or are you on the constant life support from the "civilisation"?

>>134698543

This logic appeals to children but it doesn't really make sense. If he got 30 cars by giving people enough of what they wanted that he was able to accumulate enough wealth to get 30 cars, then that's only a problem if he accumulated wealth in a way that did not also improve the lives of others. If he got 30 cars by producing 60 cars, the society has more cars overall and he's incentivized to keep making cars. Whereas if you confiscate his 29 cars, he makes no new cars because he has no reason to. This is called the incentive mechanism. It's the reason why commies had to resort to ideology to try and make people productive (see Stakhanovites and shit that didn't work.)

The Venezuela of Chavez was nationalist, socialist and christian. It was good.

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>>134698694

Think again.

>>134698867
sure. you can "own" it under communism. but your son might not need it and this is where it goes to whoever needs it
>>134699179
nonsense. if everyone works, how can you do less than in the current state with so many jobless people?
>>134699284
you actually believe that this man made these 60 cars and done nothing counter-productive to society? that he actually thought about anyone else, except himself when doing this?

>>134699238
>Because you are a part of society, you are beholden to society.

Incorrect, commiefag. I operate on equal transactions. I trade my time an effort for the money needed to live. That's not exploitation, that's simply how the universe works.

I don't give a godamn about someone who won't do the same so THEY can live. I literally couldn't even if I wanted to. And no one else can either. This is why your ideology is a pipe dream.

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>>134699209
>China is capitalist because CNN and pew said so
This is how retarded you sound.
China is neither capitalist nor communist, stop trying to save face with your retarded system that fails in of itself every 10 to 20 years.

>>134685736
This is a good question

>>134686903

This is not a response that addresses the question.

>>134699640
>Equal pay for all
But then everyone will want to be a goldfish babysitter and no one will do my plumbing.

>>134699640
Looks like a future where holocaust happened, because banks will newer allow some of shit listed there.

>>134699765
nope, sorry, you can't do shit on your own. you constantly depend on others. and that's fine as long as others can live happily as you. but they don't

>>134696115
Was lurking. See your post. Kek. Thx mate.

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>>134699741
>but your son might not need it and this is where it goes to whoever needs it
Well my son can go start his own business easily under Distributism, but if I can still work the property with only myself, the rest of my immediate family, and whatever automation I have under my disposal, there is no reason to redistribute the property away to other people. It is only once my property grows so large that I would be forced to hire other people that my property should be redistributed.

>>134700079
>there is no reason to redistribute the property away to other people
but there is. someone might need it

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What did he mean when he said this?

>>134699640
>equal pay
who needs money in an automated world?

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>>134685736
>real Communists
here in my country they're all too busy hiding in the jungle while we hunt them down to reply sorry anon

all you'll get are champagne socialist millenials larping and calling themselves antifa or some other shit title

>>134700245
That he doesn't understand socialism.

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Food for thought.

>>134685736
Commies claim they will have the hippie peace and love and shit but will gulag anyone who doesn't love big brother.

Communism has had enough chances.

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>>134699773
>China isn't capitalist

It is literally state capitalism you dumb fuck commie. Almost every economist calls it that. The government controls certain sectors but the private sector plays a huge part in the GDP and private property exists. China has the second most billionaires in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism#People.27s_Republic_of_China

There's fucking nothing socialist about it anymore.

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So these guys were wrong or what?

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>>134700226
And when someone's business fails, or when a business grows so large that it must be busted up to keep it family sized, then property will become available for those people to start their own businesses.

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>>134699640
Let's see how many commie fucks I can trigger with this one quote
>"When you work in a modern factory, you are paid, not only for your labor, but for all the productive genius which has made that factory possible: for the work of the industrialist who built it, for the work of the investor who saved the money to risk on the untried and the new, for the work of the engineer who designed the machines of which you are pushing the levers, for the work of the inventor who created the product which you spend your time on making, for the work of the scientist who discovered the laws that went into the making of that product, for the work of the philosopher who taught men how to think and whom you spend your time denouncing.
>"The machine, the frozen form of a living intelligence, is the power that expands the potential of your life by raising the productivity of your time. If you worked as a blacksmith in the mystics' Middle Ages, the whole of your earning capacity would consist of an iron bar produced by your hands in days and days of effort. How many tons of rail do you produce per day if you work for Hank Rearden [an industrialist in the novel]? Would you dare to claim that the size of your pay check was created solely by your physical labor and that those rails were the product of your muscles? The standard of living of that blacksmith is all that your muscles are worth; the rest is a gift from Hank Rearden.

>>134700245
>english speaking countries hate communism so i'll shit on it to be popular

>>134699741
1) That should be your son's choice to sell his property or keep it if he wants to; thats liberty

2) It's part of management theory - Theory X and theory Y; Theory X states that most people are lazy and don't want to work, they need authority to become productive - theory Y states that people are self-motivated and require no incentives. Theory Y only applies to specific industries, such as tech, art, music so on. However; for productivity oriented industries, most people will be lazy - check out the Hawthorne Effect for more (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect)

3) People will be selfish in society no matter what system is in place - capitalism, unlike communism at least channels some selfishness for common good - selfish in communism leads to shit like organ harvesting in china (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvAOOwvJMZs)

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>>134700472
>"Every man is free to rise as far as he's able or willing, but it's only the degree to which he thinks that determines the degree to which he'll rise. Physical labor as such can extend no further than the range of the moment. The man who does no more than physical labor, consumes the material value-equivalent of his own contribution to the process of production, and leaves no further value, neither for himself nor others. But the man who produces an idea in any field of rational endeavor—the man who discovers new knowledge—is the permanent benefactor of humanity. Material products can't be shared, they belong to some ultimate consumer; it is only the value of an idea that can be shared with unlimited numbers of men, making all sharers richer at no one's sacrifice or loss, raising the productive capacity of whatever labor they perform. It is the value of his own time that the strong of the intellect transfers to the weak, letting them work on the jobs he discovered, while devoting his time to further discoveries. This is mutual trade to mutual advantage; the interests of the mind are one, no matter what the degree of intelligence, among men who desire to work and don't seek or expect the unearned.
>"In proportion to the mental energy he spent, the man who creates a new invention receives but a small percentage of his value in terms of material payment, no matter what fortune he makes, no matter what millions he earns. But the man who works as a janitor in the factory producing that invention, receives an enormous payment in proportion to the mental effort that his job requires of him. And the same is true of all men between, on all levels of ambition and ability.

Actually, communism can be okay if not for the two things - objective differences between races and jewish qutestion.
So when you apply it to homogeneous society and remove jews, it suddenly starts to work, but it's called national-socialism now and communist hate it much more than capitalism. Which hints us what (((communism))) is really about.

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>>134700564
>The man at the top of the intellectual pyramid contributes the most to all those below him, but gets nothing except his material payment, receiving no intellectual bonus from others to add to the value of his time. The man at the bottom who, left to himself, would starve in his hopeless ineptitude, contributes nothing to those above him, but receives the bonus of all of their brains. Such is the nature of the 'competition' between the strong and the weak of the intellect. Such is the pattern of 'exploitation' for which you have damned the strong.
>"Such was the service we had given you and were glad and willing to give. What did we ask in return? Nothing but freedom. We required that you leave us free to function—free to think and to work as we choose—free to take our own risks and to bear our own losses—free to earn our own profits and to make our own fortunes—free to gamble on your rationality, to submit our products to your judgment for the purpose of a voluntary trade, to rely on the objective value of our work and on your mind's ability to see it—free to count on your intelligence and honesty, and to deal with nothing but your mind.
>Such was the price we asked, which you chose to reject as too high.
>You decided to call it unfair that we, who had dragged you out of your hovels and provided you with modern apartments, with radios, movies and cars, should own our palaces and yachts—you decided that you had a right to your wages, but we had no right to our profits, that you did not want us to deal with your mind, but to deal, instead, with your gun.

Communism can't work. It destroys the idea of a meritocracy and is built on the idea that humans enjoy work and their need to work. I understand the idea that people need a purpose but it is preposterous to think that they will just work for any job. What I mean is that sewage workers didn't grow up wanting to have that job. And if all jobs were not payed by merit and were all payed the same then who would become a sewage worker. In capitalism that sewage worker will get payed the big bucks because of the rareness of that specific worker.

>>134700472
>When you work in a modern factory
i'll stop here and say: you won't work in a futuristic factory. you won't work anywhere

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Hmm.

>>134687991
>No money
>Still has private opps I meant personal property.
Yeah you fuckers will reach for those examples but anytime it massively blows up in your face you claim "Hurr durr its not done yet"

Which you mean "I didn't get the outcome I wanted" which is utopia which is impossible, but with each attempt the blue prints only output suffering.

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>>134700643
What did he mean by this?
>mfw commies STILL can't refute this one jewish granny who wrote autistic novels

>>134700643
So you're going to sit on your ass and wait for UBI (which likely won't be a thing within our lifetimes if ever) instead of going out and working to make your life what you want it to be? Got it.

>>134700294
>who needs money in an automated world?

I didn't make the image but I imagine it is referring to the socialist phase. And I interpret it as ''everybody get paid the full of what their labour is worth''.

>>134700643
>it's a commie gets BTFO so he stops making arguments and starts making threats episode
every fucking time

>>134700543
>That should be your son's choice to sell his property or keep it if he wants to
yeah, yeah, property, greed, etc
people keep things for generations even though they never use them
also as i said before, i know the weak points of communism. but that doesn't advocate capitalism
>>134700803
memeing already?

>>134696406
Because Capitalism will extent the market to everything and... everyone or it will crumble. In its perspective human beings are reified. Remember amazon employees wearing monitoring devices?

>>134700901
>missing my point entirely

>>134700643
Because you fuckers just make everything poorer, from the soil to the people.
The only thing communism is good at is genocide.

>>134700927
So you're against freedom then? You're all in favour of taking someones belongings because raisins, and then have the nerve to call them the greedy ones?

>>134701060
>it's all commies fault
>not capitalism

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>>134700008
If you're asking if I can live outside of society, I certainly can and have. I grew up eating squirrels and foraging. Yes, we were literally that poor. I also spent 10 years working shitty jobs to get the resources to have what I do now. Life outside of society is brutish and short.

This idea that I am somehow beholden to everyone else in society is collectivist nonsense. What communism would advocate is siezing my shop and making it public for anyone to use, but none of those people would take care of it. They would reduce it to nothing. They don't have the understanding of all the effort that went in to creating it. The best argument against this idea is to just walk into a public restroom.

Just because society is beneficial to me, does not mean I am exploiting anyone. I am not a rich man, but I got where I am on my own merits and I recommend everyone else do the same. The amount of satisfaction that I get out of the little makeshift shop I've cobbled together is the best thing that's happened to me psychologically.

You want to take all that away. Over my dead body.

>>134700803
Because their philosophy is one of death and elites wishing they could kill peasants for talking back to them.

>>134701142
>freedom
you should know already that "freedom" is an illusion
anyway
>taking someones belongings because raisins
no. because a good reason and when they don't need it anymore. learn the difference
>and then have the nerve to call them the greedy ones?
property makes you greedy

>>134700927
Reply with non-arguments, don't expect arguments in return
>i'll stop here and say: you won't work in a futuristic factory. you won't work anywhere
But honestly, what did he mean by this? If you're just going to say muh robots will do anything and it'll be post scarcity guise I promise, then there's no point in having a discussion about economics as you're obviously delusional. Economics is ABOUT human action. If you're just going to dismiss human labor from the question as obsolete because of meme technologies, then we're not having a discussion, we're fantasizing about fucking science fiction. As long as human action is required to achieve human values, then the laws of economics apply.

Communism is and has always been for spoiled bourquise fuckwits enslaving people in the name of equality.

>>134701166
Its yet to be proven wrong. Communism has never been anything but neo feudalism with better PR.
Free the markets faggot.

>>134685736
Yes, let's concentrate all the power to unelected elites so that they can dictate the rules that eveybody else has to follow except them. I trust that those in charge will be my next door neighbor in a 1000 square foot home eating the same food as me. Yeah their children will be my children's classmate and there will be no cronyism/nepotism at all in who becomes the decision makers. Sure that will happen.

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>>134700379
>It is literally state capitalism you dumb fuck commie.
Actual state capitalism has been in the US for the longest of it's existence. And it's a failure of a model on every aspect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNAvsrY9vR4

>China has the second most billionaires in the world.
Under state regulations with taxations. Though you also have to ask where their money is being held at.

>There's fucking nothing socialist about it anymore.
Except for every private business having to work on a state basis and meet a quota.

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>>134699741

>you actually believe that this man made these 60 cars and done nothing counter-productive to society? that he actually thought about anyone else, except himself when doing this?

This is very telling about Communists. I literally invented a hypothetical person, and your counterargument to him being economically productive is "WELL THIS HYPOTHETICAL PERSON MUST BE UP TO NO GOOD, LOL." Maybe he's just better than you?

>>134686969
The difference is that free market capitalism has worked in the past. The United States turned a barren continent into an industrial and economic powerhouse with low taxes, no central bank, and no central planning.

Communism on the other hand has created famines, or collapsed back into a quasi free market 100% of the times it has been implemented.

>>134701060
Did you do the aftermath of the "free world" wars?

>>134701331
>freedom is an illusion
>"This time it will be different and less oppression"
Oi fuk off ya wanker

>>134701193
>to get the resources to have what I do now
tsk, tsk, tsk. you still have to eat, sleep, breathe etc. you just decided to go from self sustaining to parasitic because it's more convenient

>>134701331
>you should know already that "freedom" is an illusion
it is under communism

>no. because a good reason and when they don't need it anymore. learn the difference
There is no good reason to steal. Period.

>property makes you greedy
So what about people who give to charity?

>>134701347
>about fucking science fictio
i'm not even gonna start mentioning how much of today's technology was once considered science fiction
you just need to get hit by it in the face to notice

>>134701618
What's wrong with greed? With desire?
Without greed or desire all you end up with is Tyrone fucking your wife.

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>>134701331
>you should know already that "freedom" is an illusion
Well then what was all that jazz about full freedom vs complete slavery we talked about earlier?

>>134685736
nice pic

so I had something come up and only now got to comeback and wow thanks guys for having out the discussion. But hey you communists, my point is that you are literally promising the same thing Mao promised, so why should I trust you when that resulted in millions of deaths from famine alone?

>>134700901
>threat
Use your fucking brain

Communism is the result of those with soft hands who think they who take pity on those "below" them.
When they are twice the man or woman than a communist pig.

>>134701618
>So what about people who give to charity?
Don't surrender to his morality. The correct answer is
>property makes you greedy
>So I'm greedy for wanting to keep the property I've earned, but the communist is a saint because he wants to take it by force and redistribute it to satisfy his altruistic urgings?
Altruism truly is the shittiest meme

>>134701850
communists can't stop threatening people because their shitty malformed ideas only work for any period of time at the end of a gun

>>134701362
"There is no alternative". The bitch liked power of the state when it was convenient. Apparently liberty of the people went sometimes through the window.

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>>134701617
I paid more than enough sewat and time for that stuff. You just refuse to work for anything and you cast about when you consider the idea that you're wasting your talents. That's why you're projecting. That's why you want Communism. Because only then can you justify calling others parasites while you are benefiting from the exact same society and not producing a goddamn thing.

You know, I had thoughts of establishing a learners shop if I ever got enough money to do so. someplace public that people can come and learn how to work a forge or weld or work wood... ya know, give people free rods to catch their own fish. But if you're the type who will shop up, I think I may just spend it on 30 cars.

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>>134701449
>actual state capitalism has been in the us for the longest ofbits existence

No it hasn't. Point me a time where the biggest companies in the US were state-owned.

>under state regulations with taxes

Like every capitalist country? Even in Switzerland there are regulations and taxes. This doesn't mean it isn't capitalist.

>except for every private business having to work on a state basis

Bullshit. None of the private businesses in special economic zones like Shanghai and Shenzhen have to work on state quotas. Citation now.

Get over the fact that China only became the economic powerhouse it is today when private business and private property were legalized again in the late 70s. China stopped being socialist decades ago. I'm not saying it's free market capitalism but it's state capitalism like Russia.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2014-10-14/private-companies-are-driving-china-s-growth

>>134701387
what proof? there's no poor in communism by definition
>>134701489
no, you just assumed that he actually did anything for anyone else except himself
>>134701612
sure, it can get fucked up. but it's more probable that it won't
>>134701618
>it is under communism
it is under everything. communism just makes it the most bearable
>steal
you don't even bother reading now, do you?
>So what about people who give to charity?
that's a deeper, more psychological manner that needs deeper explanation
>>134701760
full freedom as in as much freedom as possible

If commies want to be oppressed so much they should pay a hooker to tie them up and steal their money like a normal cuck.

>>134701739
So your argument is literally that communism will be great because eventually technology will make all that pesky economics stuff go away?
You've just evaded the question. Will communism lead to that technology more quickly than capitalism? If so, why? If you want to prove that, you have to prove that communism is economically superior to capitalism. And to do that, you have to refute the quote I posted.

>>134702267
Yeah and the hate group feminism is just equality by ""Definition.""tm

>>134702020
If telling you to use your brain is a threat to you then I don't know what to say.

>>134702267
You want us to embark on yet another disastrous genocidal rampage and all you can give us is a probably?

Nigga get your shit together and leave.

>>134701780
Apparently they did not run out of british people money when it came to pay Soros's speculation against the pound.
What produces such a parasite?

>>134702517
>you're not going to work in a futuristic factory, you're not going to work in a factory at all
a threat veiled as some idea of technological advancement because commies are too chicken shit to not hide behind bullshit

>>134685736
You see, the definition of communism is as follows:
"Communism is communism only when it succeeds"

>>134702267
>communism just makes it the most bearable
Tell that to the people in China getting their organs harvested. I see what you mean though; you simply redefine 'freedom' to mean whatever you want it to mean - clever!

>that's a deeper, more psychological manner that needs deeper explanation
No, you said blatantly that property makes you greedy - people who give to charity have property and they give it away - the anti-thesis of greed. You're just wrong there.

>>134702053
yes, yes, your sweat and tears. and then a big bad capitalist with a silver spoon in his mouth shows up, fucks up your bussiness and shows you a middle finger
the fact that i mentioned that i actually work also slipped your attention because otherwise you wouldn't be able to attack me personally
enjoy your 30 cars. until someone steals them of course
>>134702358
won't it?
>You've just evaded the question
on the contrary. you're all showering me with them (trying to overtalk me perhaps?) and i try to answer as much as possible
>Will communism lead to that technology more quickly than capitalism?
i don't know. but it'll e moving so it will reach that point eventually
>>134702441
why did you even brought feminism into it?
>>134702573
better than the self destructive path we have now. accelerate it and see what happens instead of playing on the Titanic

>>134702267

>no, you just assumed that he actually did anything for anyone else except himself

I didn't mention his motive in there anywhere, I mentioned his incentive. There is a difference. Even if his only motivation is to enrich himself, if he is massively productive in pursuit of that goal, he can have an aggregate positive effect on the standard of living of others on a voluntary open market. If he sells fruit and people voluntarily buy his fruit because he likes it, him using the money from that to buy 30 cars doesn't erase all the fruit people got from him.

>>134702891
Because you are a filthy little aids pig who thinks a ""DEFINTION""TM is a fucking argument.

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>>134702267
>what proof? there's no poor in communism by definition
I can just imagine this guy as a USSR state agent, patiently, smugly and charmingly explaining to a group of Western journalists in a sumptuous embassy that there are no poor in communism by definition, while 5 miles away people are hoarding crumbs for their next meal.
>no, you just assumed that he actually did anything for anyone else except himself
Why shouldn't we act for ourselves? Why is altruism a moral ideal? Why can't we each achieve our own happiness?
>sure, it can get fucked up. but it's more probable that it won't
>Yeah, lmao baka, we killed tens of millions the last few times we tried this. But just once more! It'll probably work, because I'll be in charge, and I'm nice!
Read Solzhenitsyn and kill yourself.

>>134702891
Hey why don't you kill yourself and see what happens. You know just to see what happens.

>>134702881
>Tell that to the people in China getting their organs harvested
geee, and why does it happen, i wonder...
>the anti-thesis of greed. You're just wrong there.
i don't feel like digging into the psychological part of it. there's plenty of reasearch on it, go look for it or just believe me on this one
>>134702927
it doesn't erase all the rotten fruits either. you don't just make X and get Y, it's not that simple

>>134702891
Also while I'm at it feminism is trash just like commie cucks that support it.

>>134702794
this is correct
Marx laid out a 10 point plan to achieve communism. Every communist country either followed or made a solid effort to follow it. Every time the plan was followed, it failed to produce a stateless, classless society, and instead produced famines and mass killings. For this reason, Marxists reject that the methods proscribed by Marx to achieve communism are actually communism, unless they succeed, which they can't and won't

>>134702891
Earlier you made it clear that you think freedom is an illusion, as a libertarian (not an ancap) you're basically explaining to me why anyone with your world view should be barred from government, freaking wannabe tyrant

>>134702053
4000 billion circulate on the currencies market each day. Do you really think it aims at fueling real economy activities?

Commies are like school shooters you can't help but wonder why don't they kill themselves rather than kill others.

>>134702891
>>Will communism lead to that technology more quickly than capitalism?
>i don't know. but it'll e moving so it will reach that point eventually
So you literally don't know if communism will advance society more quickly than capitalism, let alone having any arguments for that position? Whereas there are plenty of arguments and piles of skulls in evidence that communism, far from accelerating advancement, reduces society to the status of slaves ruled through barbaric means by petty tyrants?
Please, please, watch some Peterson or read some Rand and sort yourself out before your mind implodes with all this stupidity

>>134696316
fucking retard. that's like calling capitalism a transitory phase to socialism

>>134702267
No poor in communism by definition? Ok fair enough, but by comparison even the poorest man in America or Europe is much richer than the common man in any system that promised what you promise.

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>>134703256

>it doesn't erase all the rotten fruits either. you don't just make X and get Y, it's not that simple

Does it bother you that in order to argue basic economics with me, you need to envision that the subject we are talking about is guilty of some unspecified crime? I presented a completely standard hypothetical and you are literally trying to argue that it is impossible that this man could have gotten rich without doing some evil deed, and that evil deed must override his aggregate positive economic effect.

>>134701489
>"Anon, pigs can fly capitalism, so capitalism swells!"
>But pigs can't fly
>"ZOMG commies are so stupid, like, it was just hypothetical, like zomg, like commies are so stupid

>>134699996
this is false actually. People would get paid according to their output in socialism

>>134703256
>geee, and why does it happen, i wonder...
It happens because the Chinese communist party outlawed religion; the people they take the organs from are practitioners of Falun gong; which is viewed as a religion in China (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China)

>i don't feel like digging into the psychological part of it.
Typical commy; lazy

>>134702020
And what are you going to do about it? Cry to your momma? You are going to make greentexts of how much you hate commies?

God, right-wingers are so faggy this days

>>134703739
Meanwhile big brother promises pigs fly and if you disagree its off to the gulag.

>>134703867
not an argument

>>134703739

See

>>134703642

If you guys can't imagine that someone could possibly get rich without having a net negative effect on the quality of life of those around them, then you are too ideological to argue with. Go look up the availability of consumer goods in the Soviet Union and then get back to me.

>>134703739
>>"Anon, pigs can fly capitalism, so capitalism swells!"
"Anon, since pigs can fly, capitalism swells!

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>>134702189
>Point me a time where the biggest companies in the US were state-owned.
I'm not huge on buerger history, but I think it was at the turn of the 20'th centuries when the labor parties were giving up their positions and then GSE's became a thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government-sponsored_enterprise

>This doesn't mean it isn't capitalist.
Go read upon what actually capitalism is even to begin with. There is no actual capitalist states, because the system itself is a complete failure. Every "capitalist" country has to regulate the capitalist income and dance around the incomes. You can apply these same rules to monarchies, but that won't make them capitalist as well.

>Citation now.
A bit indirectly, but http://www.sinoblawg.com/?p=1891
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but http://wikivisually.com/wiki/China_Securities_Regulatory_Commission
works across the whole nation, with no exceptions given.

>Get over the fact that China only became the economic powerhouse it is today when private business and private property were legalized again in the late 70s.
And, again, they're still heavily regulated by the government. Hell, why do you think Hollywood constantly tries to censor it's movies for the Chinese market if the private industry is so open?

>I'm not saying it's free market capitalism but it's state capitalism like Russia.
And yet liberals criticize Russia for not opening the market up, with having too much government control in it.

>>134693808
>right-wingers finally realize right-wing a shit
>switch to commie economics
>suddenly we have to deal with religious peanuts and nationalists latching onto our ideology
I will be upset.

>>134703867
And what are you going to do about it? Cry to your momma?
Now THAT is telling of lefties.
>right winger makes the valid point that communists always regress to violence because their ideas are based on nothing but the power of a gun
>condemns this barbarity as morally wrong; thus communism must be fought
>communist responds by asking what he's going to do against his gun
>literally a highwayman or a mugger's response
And people ask why we think communists are subhuman thugs.

>>134703867
I think this little commie got triggered and the other went REEEEEE all the way home

>>134704063
Why don't we take a helicopter ride and test that theory.

>>134703064
>>134703176
>>134703277
>blatant shitposting
one less person to reply to
>>134703167
>there are no poor in communism by definition
but you do know something about communism right? you're not just repeating the "communism is bad because it's bad", right?
>>134703167
>Why shouldn't we act for ourselves?
you do. all the time actually
>deaths argument
seriously, people...
>>134703366
you missed my point. reread what i previously said
>>134703499
>So you literally don't know if communism will advance society more quickly than capitalism
well, i can for sure say that things advance faster than any new technology under capitalism. this but it isn't new so it's hard to tell
>>134703582
and? do you really need to be rich?
>>134703642
>is guilty of some unspecified crime?
no, i'm saying what you said. that the human nature makes a major impact in everything. i'm sure we both know how that works in practice
>>134703858
>read the fist paragraph
>it literally mentions trading
>lazy
am i? or you are for not googling it?

>>134704118
why do communist hate white people so much?

>>134704118
But oh no you'll never realize how cucked you are. Because you are a good free thinker.

>>134703971
It's not supposed to be a argument, you dimwitt.

God, right-wingers this days are faggy and stupid.

I don't know why i even care to call myself a right-winger.

>>134703943
>socialism == gulags

>>134704027
>Hurr Durr why don't you agree with my point that i substantiate with a completely fabricated hypothetical scenario that completely ignores reality

Jesus Christ anon.

Your whole scenario is a >>134703971

We could spend all night long discussing bullshit scenarios

>>134704237
"Hurr durr you are mocking my fee fees so I don't have to reply to you honestly"

Put some effort in faggot and maybe you'd get a decent reply.

But oh no that's work.

>>134704285
We don't, though.

>inb4 you point to some group that isn't communist

>>134704363
Yes socialism== gulags judging by the company you keep.

>>134704237
>>deaths argument
>seriously, people...
Only a communist could dismiss the massacres of entire nations as if they were fucking scraps off his plate. Like a fucking botched experiment in a petri dish. Disgusting. You people are not human.

>>134704118
Communism is a religion.

>>134703812
>>134699996
CEO pay has grown 90 times faster than typical worker pay since 1978.

>>134685736
I support some form of a planned economy. I think we are more than ready for it, with modern computers.

However I do think people should be able to own their own home/land, and that would be very hard to distribute fairly.

Also I think Africans should all be sterilized and Europe only for Europeans and the sterilized Africans to be replaced by Europeans.

>>134704415
Oh what like the like the African socialist party?

>>134704471
>t. liberal
k

>>134704495
Atleast we pay our workers with money rather than rations.

>>134697398
Fuck yes, someone else played that game.

>>134704471
Capitalism believes in an "invisible hand".

>>134704376
i just highlighted every post by id RoGkuliY. no real substance in any of the posts
try harder
>>134704467
anon, please...you can't be this new

>>134704083
>Go read upon what actually capitalism is even to begin with.
And you should to. Capitalism is not a political system. It's a purely economic one. Capitalism can exist under a totalitarian regime (Nazi Germany), a social democracy (western europe), a "libertarian society" (pre-WW2 USA)...

Just because a country has taxation doesn't mean it's not capitalism.

>>134704504
Planned economies need a planner for changing circumstances, a machine can't do that.

>>134704626
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpR11AY5-gk

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>>134704237

>no, i'm saying what you said. that the human nature makes a major impact in everything. i'm sure we both know how that works in practice

Actually what you are saying is that, because of his non-altruistic motives, he MUST be doing more harm than good, which is a hilarious idea when all this guy did was grow apples, sell them, and buy the car with the proceeds.

>>134704626
You mean market forces? You know that thing that is in effect meta gaming in economics?

Yeah total pseudo science

>>134704156
>>134704224
>accuse me of getting triggered
>answers 2 of my posts in less then 1 minute difference (lol) with passive-aggressive statements

God, Right-wingers make me each passing day more socialist. Go read a book, retard

>>134704644
Try harder? I don't need to when commies like you are this fucking brain dead.

>>134699640
>equal pay for all
>no exploitation
These two are polar opposites.

>>134704779
what apples? we're talking about cars. apple seller will never afford 30 cars unles he owns a massive apple company. and he won't own a massive apple company only by working hard
>>134704880
1/10 made me reply

>>134704690
There will be programmers and leadership still though, machines will help with logistics and calculations in general.

Like I realize that it's impossible for a 125-135 IQ brainlet like myself to imagine how everything would work out. Now I focus all my energy towards opposing immigration to Europe though (IRL and online), so I'm not thinking too much about what political system really. Ideologies come and go, Europeans will be lost forever if things carry on.

It's clear to me that Capitalism and "Free market" isn't effecive in theory.

>>134685736
Agree, state capitalism/state socialism sucks hard.

Syndicalism all the way

>>134704808
>read a book
every time some says they think the only reason they don't agree is because they MUST be too stupid to understand. Nice circular reasoning faggot.

Ever heard the story of the man who discovered that washing your hands saved lives? He died poor and hated by the medical community because they couldn't accept they might be wrong because if they were wrong it meant they would be murderers through ignorance.

>>134704690
>a machine can't do that.
sceptic in perspective

>>134705045
>>134705045
>>equal pay for all
Wrong, even in USSR.

>>134704808
I like them. They're like Tamagotchis.

>>134705163
A school burns, that's great for the GDP. And they focus on a daily basis on this type of indicators.

>>134705059
But I did make you reply because for all your talk of the glory of socialism you have to do apologetics for its every brutal and massive failure.

You need to rewrite history to justify another communist state.

0/10

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>>134705059

>apple seller will never afford 30 cars unles he owns a massive apple company. and he won't own a massive apple company only by working hard

Oh so he must have made some spooky fatcat business deals? WOOoooOOOO, it's clearly the only explanation! It couldn't possibly be that he just built the company up, bought more land, grew more apples, hired more people, etc. But seriously now, how many cars can he afford before he becomes a bad person? You just let me know the number so I won't get killed in the purges for having one too many cars.

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>>134704646
>nat-soc
Restricted capitalism with heavily regulations towards socialism.
>social democracy (western europe)
Fairly non restricted capitalism, but with fairly heavy taxation, for government program implementation, rising of working standards for the working class, and so on and so forth, which are, again, socialist quotas which later on got standardized for most countries.
>a "libertarian society" (pre-WW2 USA)...

>Just because a country has taxation doesn't mean it's not capitalism.
With or without taxation it can be many things. Point is that capitalism in of itself, in it's purer forms you can see in that same pre-WW2 USA, with slavery.

For instance, a good thought on the subject matter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r54G9htI4EY

>>134705212
Or we could let people own things as individuals, you know since we're individuals. Free market capitalism is the only inherently non greedy economic system since in order to take money from somebody you have to render a service enticing enough for them to part with it. What is altruistic about taking land from people and suppressing everybody in the name of equality?

>>134705163
You really try and beat the law that states "anything that can go wrong will go wrong?"

The program will be no less able to run a planned economy than one immortal dictator.

>>134705512
This thread has done it's job then

>>134685736
I have to leave gentlemen. Thx, it was a /pol/itical chat.

>>134705288
Agree with what? I never specified my political ideology. I've even said i was a right-winger itt.

I know it's hard for americans do discuss without bringing their fee fees, but next time don't try to hard to get this emotionally invested. After all we are all anonymous and online.

I told you to read a book because you are notoriously stupid and uneducated. I probably even agree with you in many political stances.

>Ever heard the story of the man who discovered that washing your hands saved lives?
Yeah, when i was 13

>>134705163
What if we just enforced borders?

>>134705059

>what apples? we're talking about cars. apple seller will never afford 30 cars unles he owns a massive apple company. and he won't own a massive apple company only by working hard

Why are you so stupid? Why is communism so appealing to stupid people that aren't very good at anything?

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>>134685736
>real Communism
>real

It's a pipe dream that most "Marxists" will never realize, because they'll never understand Communism. It's flawed, goes against human nature, and will only create authoritarian regimes heavily intervening in the daily life of their citizens.

Communism will never exist, not while people still cherish their liberty and sanity

>>134705525
find me one crystal clear bussinesman. just one will be enough
It couldn't possibly be that he just built the company up, bought more land, grew more apples, hired more people, etc.
nope, sorry, you're the one now who has some childish ideas oh how making big bussiness works

>>134705614
there's a limit to how many times i'll reply to blatant shitposting

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>>134696687
>build on top of povery, wars, hunger, slavery, diseases and death.
Kinda sounds like China or the USSR to me.
>at this very moment over a 100 of people swallow their sweat and tears so you can feel as comfily as me
WE WUZ THE ELITE DURING MAO

If you're going to tell us to get real, you should get real first. We're still waiting on you to explain away Mao's atrocities done in the name of communism or the mass murders and political oppression by the bolsheviks under Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov.How about the Soviet Famine? I could go on and on about everything that has gone wrong under socialism or communism or whatever you decide to call it.

>>134705916
And there's a limit I'll tolerate lazy punks who would usher in a system that would kill millions via starvation before I start shitposting

>>134705788
>aren't very good at anything?
i'm pretty sure that i earn more than you
>>134705923
>communism
>leaders
i don't need to explain anything further

>>134705538
>Restricted capitalism with heavily regulations towards socialism.
>implying regulations == socialism

God, i would understand this if you were a american, or a anglo-saxon. They had their nasty brainwashing on socialism.
But you weren't subjected to it. You literally got your definition of socialism from /pol/ memes. That is quite pathetic

>slavery
>capitalism

It was capitalist influences who pushed for the end of slavery.

>>134705743
>God, Right-wingers make me each passing day more socialist. Go read a book, retard

And this is a message board where your replies are recorded. So keep that in mind.

>>134706140
>i'm pretty sure that i earn more than you

Let's hear it friendo, what's your salary and what do you do?

What is the communist consensus on breeding? In general it's white people that tend to have far higher IQ's as well as sympathy for others. In order for the greater good of the communes wouldn't it only be right that those who pass off the best genetics be allowed to breed? Or is race in the way and do you want interracial breeding programmes?

>>134706081
>starvation argument
really, on par with death argument

>>134706140

I'm interested in hearing from successful communists over the age of 25 because all I ever see are snarky little tykes that are wet behind the ears and like talking about bourgeoise because they think it triggers old white people who don't have it all figured out like they do.

>>134705858
Your mother never charges me extra to cum on your toothbrush.

But for real, the only reason you focus on "BIG BUSINESS" is because they are successful and you are envious of that fact thinking that tearing them down makes you by comparison better.

>>134706140
>i'm pretty sure that i earn more than you

>i'm pretty sure that i earn more than you

Come on bro, cards on the table.

>>134706237
sure. i'm a graphic designer and earn 3.6k euros/month
your turn

>>134706327
Bruh your ideology is dangerous, but I believe in freedom so you can have it, but I hope you change for everyone's sake

We don't need stuff like Lysenkoism killing anyone beyond what it already has

>>134706140
Forgive me but doesn't the red army have leaders?

>>134704761
A good one. Thx. Sorry that I'll have to send to you, internationalist traitor, Ramon Mercader ;)

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>>134705858

>find me one crystal clear bussinesman. just one will be enough

See this is why people call you guys utopian. You're looking to see if he's 100 percent morally pure rather than looking to see if he does more good than harm. Sorry, but other ideologies don't get to make up a phony transitional philosophy (ie Socialism) to cover for their crimes. If you guys want to partition Communism from Socialism to blame the crimes of Communists on Socialists, then Capitalists get to partition Markets from Crony Capitalism. Turnabout is fair play, pal. You can make the perfect the enemy of the good all you want, but as far as everyone else is concerned, the only difference is one gets you thrown in the Gulag for criticizing the regime, and the other gets you an iphone.

>>134706522
Truly a model worker, Marx would have been proud.

>>134706422
i'm also over the age of 25, don't worry

>>134706700
Really? how does graphic design contribute to the greater good? It's not altruistic at all.

>>134706522
Like I said men with soft hands that "pity" the very workers they claim to "save" but really they just hate they aren't more important than they are.

Your very job proves marx wrong when he proclaimed capitalism would be the death of the artisan.

>>134705603
But the program isn't running the planned economy. The program is grealy helping people organize it. Read what I write.

>You really try and beat the law that states "anything that can go wrong will go wrong?"
And how does this support Capitalism, which in theory goes wrong?

>>134706522

3600 eruo is 4202 us dollars a month = 50k salary

LOL

I make an (albeit low) six figures in the heart of IT infrastructure for a major telecom.

I should have known you were a mac book hugging hippie. a good propaganda artist for SJW based bullshit too.

>>134705782
Yeah?

>>134706876
Because when it "fucks up" it experiences creative destruction.

A program can recommend things but all it would take is a few hackers to break that system.

Do you really think that the armor race will outpace the arms race?

>>134706908
Cost of living varies. 3600 euros on Portugal is really alot of money.

>>134707043
yeah

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>>134686903

>>134707101
Bu-bu-But that wasn't reeeeeeeeeal communism

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Communism is peek materialistic degeneracy, and does not understand human incetives.

Capitalism understands human incentives, but breeds more and more materialistic degeneracy leading you to communism and therefore collapse.

Time to break the cycle of zionistic capitalism/communism materialistic degeneracy. There is another path

>>134687991
> if it works for really small communities it should work for large countries!

This is what some of you retards actually believe? Holy fuck, you are entertaining even if you are worthless in pretty much all other aspects at least.

>>134707061
But you continue to talk as if I think some intelligent AI will run things. I am talking about logistics, statistics and calculation done by computers.

>Because when it "fucks up" it experiences creative destruction.
Elaborate?

>>134707075

>Cost of living

I live in a rural US area don't know how that compares to Portugal but I'm pretty comfy. Work full time from home which reduces cost of living a lot.

The magic of capitalism all around eh?

>>134707265
What is Zionistic capitalism? Capitalism that returns to Zion(Isreal)?

>>134706168
>>implying regulations == socialism
Go read what national socialism, it actually shares more in common with socialism and communism, economically, than, let's say, state capitalist countries, like the US. By the way, for interests sake, go read upon North Korea and their main ideological and economical beliefs.

>You literally got your definition of socialism from /pol/ memes. That is quite pathetic
It's literally about government policies for redistribution of goods for the rest of the socium. By your definition, then, there shouldn't be any difference between, let's say, a monarchy, and a socialist country.

>It was capitalist influences who pushed for the end of slavery.
Like what? As far as I know the slave traders and owners were primarily pro capitalist themselves and they made good money off of slave auctions and whatnot. That's even discussed in the same video I previously linked at around 7 minutes or so.

>>134706547
are you trying to quote me? because you're pulling it all out of context
>>134706597
it did. hence it wasn't communism
>>134706672
>You're looking to see if he's 100 percent morally pure rather than looking to see if he does more good than harm
and you're rating his goodness by only what he produced, not what he wasted in the process. i can say that Nike is a holy corporation because look how many people wear ther clothes. but the reality behing them is moe than enough to take a good look at their hands
>gets you an iphone
no such thing in communism btw
>>134706700
>>134706864
a job is a job. but i don't care much if i do this or something else for that matter
>>134706908
so you earn more. that means what? i'm worse than you? i don't have a silver spoon shoved up my ass? or maybe i'm perfectly happy with my not very hard work and i don't need more money because, honestly, i don't know what to do with it. it just keeps piling up in the bank
but good to hear that you're so shallow to measure people by their salary

>>134707495
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUNqDfsx2h4

>>134707310
Well if your just recommending a program monitor the economy we already have that but AI and computers do not make a planned economy any more possible.

When a business fails it fails for a reason and thus something else can take its place.