Capitalism vs Socialism Debate Stream

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>>133655151
This looks like the worst line up I've seen in awhile. Holy shit.

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>>133655277
It's going to be juicy, 3 versus 3

>>133655151

KulturKampf team > /leftypol/ team > Sargon team

DEBATE THREAD get in here

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>>133655151
Sargon vs AIU who would win?

>>133655151
All of them should be erradicated.

>/leftypol/ is getting their asses kicked by SARGON

lol

>>133656810
They're just TOO nervous DAMMIT

"It just doesn't work"
Dam really made me think

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>>133655151
>fucking idiot commie
>e-celeb thread

Checks out. Sage.

Jesus, this is awful

>>133657402
>Scared of getting your views challenged
>Coming from an Ancap

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>Watching youtubers debate

I find paint drying on the wall more thought provoking than a much of youtubers "debating" amongst each other.

>>133657679
One isn't even a youtuber, he's a CEO. And Finnish Bolshevik makes good educational videos.

>>133655151
This is so cringy
>my comrades

>>133655151
Both capitalism and socialism need to be utilised by society for the best results but neither should be the ruling system.
Debate over.
You don't buy this and push your either system like you're supporting a football team you are part of the problem. You are pushing for an evil outcome.

>>133658770
Explain how you combine capitalism and socialism, they are completely antithetical to each other

>>133658770
Capitalist economics with socialist policies? Look at venezuela

>>133658770

interestingly both terms "capitalism" and "socialism" were created by Marx.

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>>133659020
6/10

No one is this much of a mouthbreathing retard but some morons here will believe it, so good job.

>>133658901
Only way is having a capitalist economy with socialist policies like free healthcare and education. The problem is the socialist policies are based on taxation which are based on the health of the markets.

>>133655151
threads like this prove /pol/ is mostly underage. Probably the youngest average board age on 4chan after /b/

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>>133655151
whoever wins, we lose

Also if you're not on the side of socialism you are fucking retarded

>>133660264
Funny, /leftypol/ had this thread ages ago...

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you're on your personal computer/mobile phone right now looking at 4chan, debate is over. Capitalism wins again.
Thanks for playing kids

>>133660294
I can just need look north and see why I don't want to become a socialist

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>>133657545
>views challenged

The only thing challenged is your mentality.

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>>133660446

>>133660451
>"n-n-not r-real socialism!"

>>133660264
Sometimes I'm reading thread and it physically hurts how ignorant some morons are. Example:
>>133659020

I don't know if I'm getting older or this place is getting dumber. I think it's the latter. Too many abreviations (every other post is "kys!"), the level of discourse is primary, there's no intelligence, no wit. Everything is taken literally, there's no subtlety. "weather u like it or not your wrong and there right!!!"

It's so sad. This place is fucking dead. The problem is people who never experienced original /pol/ have no idea what I'm talking about.

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>>133660770

>>133660732
>evvryding good is socialism cus i said so

not sure if retarded or actual communist

>>133660150
>and likes cuck cops, not real cops; but wants law and order

>>133660732
Not having to source your outlandish claims. Thank socialism for that.

>>133660732
>unironically being a monarchist

Ancaps and based socialists aside, I don't know who the fuck would want a monarchy.

"Muh Marx"

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>>133660732
Pics= reality

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>>133655151
>Watching either obese or emaciated teenagers stammering some shit at each other live from their mom's bedrooms via internet

What a time to be alive

>>133660732
>HEYYYYYY TOVARISH
*drinks vodka
>SO YOU ARE SAYIN
*squats

Why are Communists always such gangly fucks? Serious question

>>133660732
>Thank Socialism for not having to hunt for food
>Thank Socialism for not having to grow your food
Are you implying Socialism doesn't feed people?

>>133661360
They want to redistribute the strength

>>133661429
kek

>>133660732
Persil is from the German empire, so you should thank monarchism for it.

>>133660451
what do you think socialism mean?

>>133661429
I laughed

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>>133661278
>>133661360
>What you say malenki capboy

>>133661209
nigga what

>>133661491
An utopic dellusion that, idiots fall for and opportunists use to gain power and oppress millions!

Sargon literally hasn't got anything substantial to say

He's just butting in every 10 mins to say something edgy

>>133660446
>implying they didn't have computers and phones in communist countries
>implying Capitalism, an abstract idea, made computer/phones as opposed to the workers themselves which communism supports
>implying "Hey the slaves are using things from their slave master while arguing against their slavery" is ever a valid argument

>invented things like the "Sputnik"

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Who can do more for society?

A person with 1 million dollars or 500000 people with 2 dollars?

There's no way Sargon is aware of the economic calculation problem, do any of the other fags even bring it up?

>>133662264
The 500,00 people because the money isn't actually doing anything

>>133661896
Not a great definition.
Regardless without the work of Socialist workers advocates the world would be a hellhole for most of the population most likely including yourself. You're bashing the people who have given you everything you have.

>>133662278
Finnish Bolshevik addresses it one of his videos

>>133662420
Bingo

Sargon is the greatest gift liberalism has given the right in that he's destroying the most militant parts of liberalism and the left from within. By being a radical moderate he paves the way for the right.

>Unironically citing Fernand Braudel and the longue durée

Ffs just go back to you marxist uni shithole

So Sargon argues with teenaged Marxists now? Kek

>>133662458
My father gave me the education and provided me the healthcare I needed in order for me to be able to live on my own, it wasn't the fuck state that gave me my job that's for fucking sure!

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>>133655151
The idiot fuck commies need to watch these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3aeDQwOSSs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrzKDKPvg4Y

Honestly, their arguments are childlike, and they aren't even getting yet to a more sophisticated level, or discussing historical instances.

>>133662998
They don't even understand what a market is economics 101 would be a better place to start

>>133661160
the logical conclusion of ancap looks a lot like a monarchy

when someone owns the property they tend to care more about making it prosperous, rather than using the government as a tool to fuck over your democratic opponents

>>133662842
>My father gave me the education and provided me the healthcare I needed
No the teachers and doctors gave you those things.

>it wasn't the fuck state that gave me my job that's for fucking sure!
It was the capitalists who employed you with wages

>DUDE IF WE JUST HAD ALL THE SCIENTISTS WORKING ON THE SAME THING AT ONCE IT WOULD BE BETTER

Holy fuck this is absolute fucking retardation

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HAHAHAHAAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHHHAHA

HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU BE SO FUCKING DENSE

5 minute intermission

Discuss

>>133656134
On what? Trump vs Clinton?

Devon is right on a lot of things but the guy just can't take any criticism. This faggot banned me because i asked a simple guestion. If you don't agree with him, he will:
a) Dismiss your argument because you don't have your real name on your YT channel
b) Tell you he will fight you

We are literally talking about a person who unironically thinks only rural and suburban retards voted for Trump.

>>133663440
Finbol just said you can have multiple projects. The soviets had many many projects on different tanks for example. Capitalist monopolies ensured only a few models existed.

More than 4 people in a live stream is fucking retarded. 8:::::::::::::::::::::>

>>133663662
At the mercy of the government, which can shut down any project for whatever reason.

That's rife for corruption and nepotism.

>>133663364
>No the teachers and doctors gave you those things.

And I'm pretty sure my father had to pay for for my school and and the medical bills.

>It was the capitalists who employed you with wages

Yeah and?

>>133655151
Given that communists are historically notorious for their lack of respect for property rights and self ownership and have been responsible for the greatest mass murders in recent human history we can deduce that they do not apply rights such as self ownership to others or themselves.
Furthermore this means that communists can not be considered moral agents.
One can not be considered a moral agent if one does not have an ability to make a moral judgement.
Since these moral relativists reject the notion of morality altogether we know they are incapable of acting in a moral fashion.
In order for rights to exist between two or more beings there must exist some level of reciprocation of rights such is the minimum requirement for one to be considered a moral being.
Communists are incapable of reciprocating rights as they do not believe such things exist.
We can thus conclude that communists being incapable of showing the characteristics of humanity, are therefore for all intents and purposes not human and as such should be treated as dangerous primates.

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>capitalism vs communism
both are shit
National Socialism is the way

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>>133663160
This is probably true. They need to re-think and re-conceptualize how the basic elements (indeed the nomenclature itself) actually functions.

They need to actually test their hypothesis in other more simplistic scenarios.

Anyway, I tire of commies never learning. It is greatly sad that, thanks to Keynse, rampant leftism, the electorate being bribed with welfare, and higher education being invaded by the leftists long march, more nuanced discussions on this can never be had.

Should such discussions take place and individuals actually think through these ideas, I am confident that they would arrive at the true conclusion, with respect to what economics actually is, and that the free market is the best way of interacting with it effective. To be sure, for certain, those who are consistently economic failures, would certainly prefer the nanny state. The rest need to dispose of such yoke.

>>133663222
Yeah because monarchs have historically been so successful at management. So successful they managed to cause three revolutions after stealing up most of the wealth for their degenerate court orgies (Romanovs, Bourbons, Stuarts).

>>133662842
It was workers advocates that let your father have the time off to educate you.

>>133655151
Every time a commie says something it has massive potholes or does not make sense.

20 innovators working on 1 tractor? is he retarded?

Are we now seriously debating with communists? Does the degeneracy go so deep in our society?

>>133664021
>socialism = liberalism
>telling anyone else they don't understand politics/economics

>Crazy antisemite
>has a clover
>commie thinks he's Irish
TOPKEK

>>133664206
You have to. Otherwise commies (like Bernie Sanders) will come along and promise free shit to the plebs and they eat it up.

>>133663967
You're just an edgy capitalist.

>>133663662
You are a moron. A greater number of state driven projects will inevitably cause projects which are worthless garbage, to proliferate, or even to exist for a time. This is the very inefficiency which government produces, and why it results in miss-allocation of resources, detrimental effects to prices, less innovation, and the other problems which typify socialism.

Why do I have to explain something so obvious and elementary?

Socialists came out looking better

>>133664314
>You have to. Otherwise commies (like Bernie Sanders) will come along and promise free shit to the plebs and they eat it up.
I guess. It had to be done when kids were 12 or so, though. How can a grown up person be a communist is beyond me.

>>133664314
>Bernie Sanders
>socialist

Cringe.

>>133664081
are you trying to compare the capabilities of nation from the past to current nations? technologies have changed a lot since then

the fact there were revolutions is irrelevant, the point is that ancap nations would be very similar to monarchies in many ways

it worked fairly well for a long time, this whole hyper inclusive mass democracy thing is a pretty new experiment and it hasn't been going so great

>>133664488
Free shit isn't a socialist talking point? Isn't that the whole point of socialism?

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>>133664250
Responding in a retarded manner to something what wasn't claimed or addressed, am I supposed to actually consider this?

Perhaps you should learn the distinctions between Liberalism and liberalism, and how the new left in the last 100 years has bastardized the nomenclature.

Get educated.

>>133664502
Neither has the whole monarchy thing been going great. How would technologies prevent from the simple fact that just because a leader is good, it doesn't mean his son wouldn't be a decadent hedonist?

>>133664562
He's an extremist social liberal and social democrat. That's not a Socialist.

>>133664565
>learn the distinctions between Liberalism and liberalism
Unlike most, I'm aware of them, and both are completely shit.

>>133664565
It's literally word for word in the picture you posted

>>133655151
>>133655151
I HATE these streams about politics you guys watch/do.
These guys are always prepotent as fuck.

And they're not funny or smart, at all.

>hurr cabidalism vs. sozialism

The world doesn't work like these, fucking morons.

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>>133663967
Are you fucking mentally handicapped?
Rockwell was a capitalist all the way.

>>133664698
A meaningless distinction. It sounds more like you're embarrassed by a socialist offering socialist policies.

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>>133655151
>e-celeb thread
>our supposed side as sargon of cuckkad on it

>>133664698
>Neither has the whole monarchy thing been going great. How would technologies prevent from the simple fact that just because a leader is good, it doesn't mean his son wouldn't be a decadent hedonist?

it doesn't, and he doesn't have to pass it on to his son, it wasn't uncommon for monarchs to pass leadership on to someone other than their first born son, much like happens in large privately owned corporations where the "heir" is unable to fill the role

the technology thing was in regards to your mention of management, which in many ways was a lot trickier back then

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>>133664206
communism is a constant scourge of modern civilization. It must be fought everywhere we find it. It will only disappear in the event of complete fascist takeover or complete social and civilizational evolution.

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>>133664794

>socialism being something worth of debate

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>>133656134
AIU is actually the living embodiment of a low-information retard. Listening to his trantrums over Hillary getting blown the fuck out were hilarious.

Sargon doesn't really register on me too much, but if you want a show, go get this cuck to argue Ryan Dawson on any subject. It'll be the sort of one-sided massacre you normally associate with... Oh right, Ryan Dawson slaughtering Desticuck.

>>133664822
He wouldn't have done jack about Wall Street and the monopolies, you know, the actual problems with American capitalism. He pretty much said he wouldn't. 'Free shit' isn't what socialism is about.

>>133664967
Then it wouldn't be a monarchy... and sometimes the predecessor doesn't give a fuck.

>>133665049
Ignoring the commies is why we're surrounded by them now. They're are a permanent threat.

>>133664822
>A meaningless distinction. It sounds more like you're embarrassed by a socialist offering socialist policies.
The distinction is that socialism forbids privately own "means of production", and ideally any private property. Sanders is not against private property like lake houses etc.

and what happened to the USSR when they went against the capitalist machine?

>>133664822
>A meaningless distinction
Because modern day Sweden and Denmark are the same as the USSR? You people, i swear.

>>133660150
>The myth
Well, niggers being racially inferior made them poor, but the welfare state made it worse.

>>133665045
I transcended my own brain. Joke's on you.

>>133660294
Socialism is a criminal ideology that has thankfully failed.

>>133665120
If don't deal in "what ifs". Bernie is a socialist because he campaigns against capitalism and promotes socialist policies.

>>133665188
Sweden and Denmark are abandoning those policies because they're failing. To put it bluntly, they ran out of money to throw away.

The communists in the stream are now just trolling claiming that USSR and Albania were successful countries

>capitalism vs socialism
how dull can you get, jesus

how about white ethnostate vs multi-racialism

>>133665400
>Bernie is a socialist because he campaigns against capitalism and promotes socialist policies.
Find me some anti-capitalist and socialist policies. I'll answer you how they aren't either.

>To put it bluntly, they ran out of money to throw away.
The problem with capitalism is you eventually run out of other people's countries.

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>>133664747
This
Fuck, college is full of these little shits fighting each other

>>133665536
>The problem with capitalism is you eventually run out of other people's countries.

SPACE MINING ANON SPACE MINING

>>133665130

that's sad but true

we need more people like milton friedman

>>133664761
Well the dumbass who made it obviously didn't used the small "L" as they ought to have. This new "liberalism" (as the nerd who made the picture ought to have written), should have made the distinction more clear. As you can probably tell, they are the same word, but with two different meanings.

Anyway, enough of the mentally challenged kids here.

>>133665536
>Find me some anti-capitalist and socialist policies.
"Free" healthcare and "free" college.

>The problem with capitalism is you eventually run out of other people's countries.
Cute, but that doesn't mean anything.

>>133661607
russian=commie
KYS

CAPITALISTS BTFO

Even the CEO says socialism works

>>133665400
>Sweden and Denmark are abandoning those policies
What policies and in favor of what?

>Bernie is a socialist because he campaigns against capitalism
He's specifically said what he is in favor for which is why i brought up Scandinavia, as he mentions them as something he wants for the U.S. and it ain't socialism, dummy

>>133665711
>"Free" healthcare and "free" college.
We have that here, and I can tell you we aren't socialist.

>Cute, but that doesn't mean anything.
Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Yugoslavia... ring a bell?

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>>133665697
anon, are you retarded?

Jesus, why do all self proclaimed intellectuals have such shitty profile pictures

>>133665996
"American intellectuals."

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>>133655151
Yeah
nah I'm not wasting my time watching six autist rant about their own personal utopia versions of society

>>133665860
Who's the CEO?

>>133665711
>"Free" healthcare and "free" college.
A welfare state, again like most European countries, not socialism. The modern welfare state was created specifically to take away support for the socialists.

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>>133665970
"liberalism" (with a small L) is the new left.

"Liberalism" with a capital L, is what is known as classical liberalism, i.e. from the 17th - 19th century, you FUCKING UTTER MORONS.

GET

A

FUCKING

EDUCATION

BEFORE

OPENING

YOUR DUMB

FUCKING

MOUTHS.

>>133665860
>Even the CEO says socialism works
It works like a clockwork if you're in gulag and hunger business

>>133666289
Literally this.

>>133666307
YEAH I KNOW. BOTH ARE FUCKING ASS BECAUSE ONE LED TO THE OTHER. KYS.

>>133666250
Bantu Rhino, I think he is the CEO for insurance company. Correct me if I'm wrong

>>133665873
>What policies and in favor of what?
Bernie, for example, promotes a Wall Street speculation tax to pay for his free shit.

Sweden already tried this decades ago. It massively failed as over 90% of the investors moved out of country.

>>133665967
>Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Yugoslavia... ring a bell?
What's the implication here? That Western countries invaded these places and stole all their resources?

>>133666289
>not real socialism
Yeah, "real" socialism is what we're seeing in Venezuela now (which Bernie praised before it inevitably went to shit)

>>133666383
"L" Liberalism, led to libertarianism and free markets, so I'd suggest you're wrong.

Socialism is the most failed ideology in history. Even China abandoned that shit in the late 70s and became far richer and better off for it.

>>133666307
NEITHER OF WHICH ARE SOCIALISM YOU FUCKING IDIOT
nu-liberals = vote for hillary clinton (a fucking neoliberal warmongering corrupt crony)
if you hadn't noticed, the left/right dichotomy has shifted further right, since the days of classical liberalism. identity politics and social issues have changed, but economically and foreign policy, the spectrum has shifted right.

>>133660732
I'm pretty sure that image is taking the piss out of Socialism.

>>133666418
>taxes are socialism
No.

> "real" socialism is what we're seeing in Venezuela now
Again, no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_JhRVlIR-c

>>133660732
Nearly all those inventions came from incredibly capitalistic, imperialistic Britain.
FAR more capitalistic than most countries nowadays.

>>133666655
>and became far richer and better off for it.

sweatshop-with-suicide-nets.jpg

>>133666418
Sweden was most successful under its Bismarckian socialist system. It failed once they decided to go with the liberal social democracy that they have today, because they can't sustain their welfare state with all the Somalian refugees. Obviously.

>What's the implication here? That Western countries invaded these places and stole all their resources?
Yes.

>Yeah, "real" socialism is what we're seeing in Venezuela now (which Bernie praised before it inevitably went to shit)
Venezuela's economy, as always, depended on oil prices.

>>133666597
>"L" Liberalism, led to libertarianism and free markets, so I'd suggest you're wrong.
It started as that, yes, then led to 'l' liberalism. Why? Because when people are allowed to do everything they want, act young wild and free and support LGBTBBQ, then they eventually want to enforce that on the respective country's remaining normal population via media influence and other shit. Let's not even bring up on how businesses profit from open borders and how many 'l' liberals are using that as one of their justifications against the Wall.

>>133666782
Taxes are inherently socialism. Taking wealth and redistributing it is what you guys are all about.

>Venezuela isn't socialist
Stop this.

>>133666911
Better than starving to death

FB JUST EXPOSED CAPITALISM IT'S HAPPENING

>>133666761
No that computer at the top was made by the Soviets. It's just pointing the ridiculousness of "capitalism gave you these things" argument

>>133666976
>Taxes are inherently socialism.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. We have socialism worldwide then, you hear that comrades, we already won, wow that was easy.


>Venezuela isn't socialist
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/07/18/socialism-private-sector-dominates-venezuelan-economy-despite-chavez-crusade.html

>>133666971
>Yes.
Utter nonsense. We didn't even take their oil.

>Venezuela's economy, as always, depended on oil prices.
And? Doesn't make it un-socialist. This game you socialists play trying to define "real" socialism is fucking tiresome.

I could do the same shit and say that capitalism isn't to blame for any of your criticisms. America? Not TRUE capitalism!

>>133667261
Incompetent socialism is still socialism, little man.

>>133666184
too afraid of new ideas?

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>>133666911
this is the problem with you people: where you should be making comparisons with preceding conditions, you make comparisons with your utopian dream world conditions

>>133667461
>I could do the same shit and say that capitalism isn't to blame for any of your criticisms. America? Not TRUE capitalism!
You already have, you dumb bastard, lol

>taxes are inherently socialism
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>133667674
Okay, you have no argument then. Go fuck yourself.

>>133667461
Social democrats explicitly state they aren't socialists though. And ancaps already go that it isn't true capitalism, so you already have that.

>Utter nonsense. We didn't even take their oil.
Probably because removing a secular dictator that kept stability and then resulting in the Iraqi state devolving into sectarian violence was not a very good idea.

>>133667203
> It's just pointing the ridiculousness of "capitalism gave you these things" argument
Of course, like the image says, socialism gives you propaganda paintings and technology that's outdated by a decade or so.
How could anybody think any different?

>>133667735
>you have no argument then
You're doing a pretty decent job at tearing down your own arguments, lol

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>>133667866

>>133667759
>Social democrats explicitly state they aren't socialists though.
Yeah, seeing as Scandinavian countries haven't collapsed they're not real socialists. Venezuela is where we look when we want to see real socialism.

>Probably because removing a secular dictator that kept stability and then resulting in the Iraqi state devolving into sectarian violence was not a very good idea.
Ok. How is Denmark super rich as a result of this again?

>>133667866
Namecalling and HAHAHAHA is not an argument. Fuck off.

>>133667759
>Probably because removing a secular dictator that kept stability and then resulting in the Iraqi state devolving into sectarian violence was not a very good idea.
Are we really going to pretend these were prosperous societies before conflicts?

>>133655151
Socialism and capitalism work on different scales. My house is socialist, we all stock the fridge and take what we need, we all pay what we can towards the mortgage, we all shit in the communal toilet. Granted my house has pretty strict immigration laws.

Capitalism works better on larger scales while becomes arguably self defeating in smaller interpersonal scales

>>133668010
The USSR didn't collapse though. Gorbachev's actions brought it down even though there was widespread support for it continuing. Communist parties won a majority in many countries except the extremely anti-Russian ones who associate communism with Russian dominance (Baltics, Poland, Hungary). Yeltsin maintained power through CIA support against his Communist opposition, this is something numerous right-wing US media sources have admitted. This is what PM and ex-President of Russia Medvedev also admitted.

>>133668046
They were certainly better than ISIS, McCain.

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>>133667943
Stefbot is such a joke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUs_Q_rfl9I

>>133668010
>social democrats are socialists
Let's just forget this and this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_fascism

>>133655151
The socialism team is awful. Badmouse is a SJW anarkiddie, Xiexy is an anti SJW anti tankie marxist. And finish bolshevik is a full "stalin did nothing wrong praise kim jong il" retarded tankie. None of them will be able to agree what socialism is or whether the USSR was socialist. So 2 of them will be talking about not real communism and 1 yelling that north korea is actually a paradise on earth.

>>133668317
>They were certainly better than ISIS, McCain.
Well, if that is the bar for declaring success of communism, I won't disagree.

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>>133657545
>"scared of getting your views changed"
>entire commie niche depends on being in extreme denial and rejecting any direct logic
Reminder, the degree delusion you faggots have to engage in is off the charts. You have to convince yoruself, literally on a daily basis and on every debate, that the fact that all devoted marxist regimes we had in the previous 100 years were irrelevant to a discussion on marxism. You have to sabotage the very base of reality in order to even begin a debate attempting to defend communism.

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>>133668317
>The USSR didn't collapse though.

I'm done.

>>133668630
You should have been done after you argued against your own point.

>>133668630
Not an argument.

>>133660446
>In order to advocate a socialist system you have to pretend you allready live in socialism and starve yourself to death because food is made by capitalism.

>>133668807
>>133668761
No, it's just the same old
>socialism/communism was working, it was those EVIL OUTSIDE FORCES THAT RUINED IT!

The solution for your problem can only be administered via helicopter.

>>133660912

You never experienced /new/.

Fuck off.

>>133666718
The new 'l' liberalism is absolutely attributable and akin to socialism. You are a moron.

This is because the phrase has been re-interpreted, along with the definitions and understanding of the phrases 'liberty' and 'freedom', and 'rights', to be used as the basis for argument that because everyone should be free (on the basis of the new definition, associated now [incorrectly] with power (hence wealth as the next logical step)). Now, it is being used to argue for equality (e.g. equal access to power), and redistributive exercise (which requires exercise of state coercive power), which is socialism by definition.

The Classical 19th century Liberalism has a definition of liberty (a negative definition, freedom from coercion) which would not allow the above arguments to be sustained.

"This confusion with liberty as power with liberty in its original meaning inevitably leads to the identification of liberty with wealth; and this makes it possible to exploit all the appeal which the word "liberty" carries in the support for a demand for the redistribution of wealth. Yet, though freedom and wealth are both good things which most of us desire and though we often need both to obtain what we wish, they still remain different. Whether or not I am my own master and can follow my own choice and whether the possibilities from which I must choose are many or few are two entirely different questions. The courtier living in the lap of luxury but at the beck and call of his prince may be much less free than a poor peasant or artisan, less able to live his own life and to choose is own opportunities for usefulness."

"If there is to be any clarity in the discussion of liberty, its definition must not depend upon whether everybody regards this kind of liberty as a good thing."

"Above all, however, we must recognize that we may be free and yet miserable. Liberty does not mean all good things or the absence of all evils."

>>133669150
But its literally a fucking fact. Are you saying you're smarter than the Prime Minister of Russia? End yourself.

>>133667735
What makes you think that a dumb post like yours deserves a well thought response? You made a absolutely retarded response, and got mocked for it.

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As a lower working Class Man who has nothing to my name and no opportunity at the moment to up skill and get on in my life. the Utopia they are describing is scaring the living fuck out of me.

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>>133669150
The Russian revolutionaries managed to win a revolution while being attacked by 13 different countries. And socialism didn't ruin the USSR the later capitalists did.

>The solution for your problem can only be administered via gulag.

>>133655151
>muh capitalism doesnt work cause theres empty houses and homeless people
these guys are retarded

>>133668332

Noam Chomsky: "HURR IF YOU WORK FOR SOMEONE TO FEED YOURSELF, YOU'RE A WAGE SLAVE!"

Holy shit that man doesn't understand incentives or resource scarcity or physics.

so who is winning the debate?

>>133669787
>YOU'RE A WAGE SLAVE
I prefer wage cuck

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>>133669339
>>133669511
It's funny.

Socialism and Communism is so FRAGILE and so BRITTLE that the slightest influence from an "outside force" cripples and collapses the entire system. Meanwhile, Capitalism is such a global, powerful, omnipotent force that topples Socialism with the slightest of touch.

Maybe it's a sign that your ideology is always destined for failure? But your delusion and bloodlust will never be muted in the face of these facts. You're a defective creature that needs to be put down.

>>133669835
no one

>>133668212

This. This. This. This. This.


This is why conservatism always wins. It creates a society with free markets but places tons of emphasis on families to encourage personal communism among relatives.

This a thousand fucking times.

>>133669947

That's because you're retarded.

>>133655151
>no third way
Shit debate.

>>133670059
Sympathetic to this view as well. Conservatism is valuable.

>>133669835
The socialist side is doing really well

>>133669951
Funny when socialists turn into capitalist countries they become shitholes. When capitalist countries become socialist they become super powers. While the USSR was IMPERMEABLE to American subversion, communist spies completely dominated your academia and culture. We control you.

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>>133669951
>topples Socialism with the slightest of touch.
A pesky little Cuban would disagree, among others

>>133669951
And yet, you claim you are infiltrated by Cultural "Marxists" (actually extremist liberals) to the every level of your society. Heh. But no, my example of your failure is the current social decadence ongoing. The 'do as you will' thought that enabled faggotry like SJWs to exist in the first place.

>You're a defective creature that needs to be put down.

Come and try, worked well enough for you in 1942.

>>133670103
Stay cucked, wage cuck

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Commies be like :

GIBS ME DAT !

>>133670290
Lmao. China became capitalist and transformed into a superpower as a result. Your only example of vice versa is the ussr.

Africa is littered with failed marxist states. Your ideology is such a fucking failure that collapses. EVERY TIME.

>>133670290
>Funny when socialists turn into capitalist countries they become shitholes. When capitalist countries become socialist they become super powers.
This is objectively wrong. Keep acting retarded and you will be filtered.

>>133670303
>>133670379
Why do you blame capitalism for SOCIALIST Venezuela's failure?

Checkmate, losers.

>>133655151
Capitalism death toll
>HUR DURRR 6 MILLION NEGROES WEREN"T SAVED BY EXPENSIVE WESTERN MEDICINE. LE GENOCIDE HURRR

>>133660732
>homemade electricity

is this a troll?

>>133670560
Because its economy depends on oil prices you retard, and South America's your backyard so its always dependent on you in some form or another. Its why even Cuba's been forced to liberalize after Castro.

Also let me redpill you on post-communism and the capitalism that came after. It completely DESTROYED Balkan countries. Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Romanians are all forced to wash dishes overseas while their country slowly dies and oligarchs affiliated with US capitalists own their countries.

If Putin hadn't come in, that'd be the state of Russia as well.

>>133661160
Apparently Britbongs

>>133670303
> a few hunderd

>>133670876
Britbong monarchy is just a glorified celebrity. Elizabeth II is okay, but her successors will be full on Hollywood celebs.

>>133670523
>China became capitalist
Praise the free market

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-35818730

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1882994-richest-in-china-are-connected-with-the-communist-party/

>>133670560
Why do you keep going back to old topics/moving the goal posts?

>>133655151
The purple green mouse guy, I think I met him once at a british bar. He sounds and acts exactly the same. He was trying to pick up chicks by espousing marxist feminist crap, the girl was completely uninterested in his cucky ways. I came in with my sexy american accent and had her naked 15 minutes later. God damn are all british commies such cucks?

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>>133670303

>>133670920
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-gift-aging/201304/people-autism-spectrum-disorder-take-things-literally

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>>133661160
>want a monarchy
Implying I don't have one

>>133671162
Thanks

>>133671118
>some

>>133671049
What's your point? Do you deny the fact that gdp per capita skyrocketed and poverty was halved thanks to adopting capitalist reforms in china? Fucking kill yourself dumb donkeynigger.

>>133671118
We've already went through Gorbachev being shit >>133668317

holy shit the capitalist is enraged

>>133671472
>What's your point?
Not free market capitalism which would make it "not real capitalism" to most dipshits on here

This CEO is literally a walking meme

>>133671922
He's a living caricature

>>133671918
I never said it was free market capitalism dipshit. Point out where I insinuated or even implied that. Capitalism is defined as the means of production being privately owned as to generate private profit. The Chinese GDP is compromised of a huge part of the private sector.

I just tuned in, has this Bantu guy been raping them like this the whole time?

FinBol makes a good point about innovation under socialism

>>133672784
Pretty much, capitalists (unsurprisingly) shitting all over their faces. The commie kids can barely even string together a coherent thought. It's honestly really pathetic. They're COMPLETELY oblivious to how things work in practice or to any form of nuance.

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>>133672168
Oh good, so by that regard i assume you agree the Scandinavian countries and the like are capitalist as well. Good, now onto your point about capitalism turning China into a super power. It is the other way around. There is a reason why China still admires Mao to this day.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.LE00.IN?locations=CN

>>133672926
I dont even understand sentences some of they say, its just word salad with no meaning

>>133671289
yeah it was only a couple of the best technology around, wouldnt even need many

This fin guy can't admit he's wrong

>>133672964
What are diminishing returns

Where do you even think bulk of life expectency is coming from

>>133660732
Socialism caused Nasa and helped create vaccines, but the entire notion of socialism being innovative is nonsense. Capitalism created trains, cars, cellphones, etc.

>>133655151
where my bernie bros at

>>133660373
Please tell me this is real.

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>>133672964
Yes, every developed country is capitalists. Those countries are just capitalists with massive welfare states. The means of production are privately owned to generate private profit.

https://www.thelocal.dk/20151101/danish-pm-in-us-denmark-is-not-socialist

Also see pic related:

>China's economic growth since the reform has been very rapid, exceeding theEast Asian Tigers. Economists estimateChina's GDPgrowth from 1978 to 2013 at between 9.5% to around 11.5% a year. Since the beginning of Deng Xiaoping's reforms, China's GDP has risen tenfold.[29]The increase intotal factor productivity(TFP) was the most important factor, with productivity accounting for 40.1% of the GDP increase, compared with a decline of 13.2% for the period 1957 to 1978—the height of Maoist policies. For the period 1978–2005, Chinese GDP per capita increased from 2.7% to 15.7% of U.S. GDP per capita, and from 53.7% to 188.5% of Indian GDP per capita. Per capita incomes grew at 6.6% a year.[30]Average wages rose sixfold between 1978 and 2005,[31]while absolute poverty declined from 41% of the population to 5% from 1978 to 2001.[32]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform#Economic_performance_since_reform

Absolute poverty rates down from 41% to 5%. Mao was fucking dogshit which is why the Chinese love capitalism more than Americans.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/13/news/economy/capitalism-china-likes-more-than-us/index.html

Rid the world of your stupidity, Marxist fuck.

>>133662458
Do you live in a socialist country?

>>133662059
>this amount of mental gymnastics
WOW

>>133655151
literally who x5 + sargoy is a socialist

>get paid in oiled virgins
wtf i love ancap now

>>133673975
>massive welfare states
Not even. The u.s. has a greater welfare state. China just has a few semi state owned industries which are basically just private cartels of party bosses. If they would apply the u.s. system China would rule the world in 10 years. The difference with india is down to iq I think.

>>133661160
Monarchy is the best system of rule. The hierarchy is strongly defined and enforced in society. It is the original right-wing position: pro-monarchy, anti-republic

>>133673975
>Mao was fucking dogshit which is why the Chinese love capitalism
I don't deny they're capitalists, i deny that capitalism is what set the foundation for them to become a global power and Mao is still revered there specifically for setting that foundation

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/18/asia/china-mao-insults/index.html

>>133674602
Archive shills
https://archive.is/RdiPJ

I'm so sick of political e-celebs. They're all so tribal, sly and especially petty.

>>133655151
>no destiny
>faggot sarggon
>5 literally whos
lol nah

So is Sargo a commie or not?
I thought he was a marxist

>>133674602
>Massive collectivist genocide
>Finally mao dies
>Government: this can't go on
>system is liberalized(more free market capitalism)
>Economy grows
>Making the goodies for actually rich capitalist countries
>Regime obviously keep worshipping founder
>Retard on the internet: LE MAO MADE CHINA GREAT AGAIN
but it's probably b8

>>133674656
;^)

"Eventually we will get to socialism"

Capitalists defend yourselves

>>133674900
Civcuck nationalist neoliberal

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>>133674900
you just believe anything pol says?

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I dislike capitalism because it's exploitative and often causes people harm, and I dislike socialism because it's dysgenic and drags people down. Fascist economics are the answer, small regulation but heavy government oversight to look out for consumers and worker's, pushing up living standards and wages, and restricting business which is harmful to the nation. Providing universal healthcare and education, but not universal welfare. And most importantly, socializing essential industry like energy, steel, water and transport if their privatization isn't working, and reclaiming land and property from foreign investors to provide sustenance and homes to natives.

>>133675215
"socialism"
It means everything will cost 1cent per year

resources are still finite , unless that changes

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Coca Cola death squads LMAO

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>>133675215
>>133674602
/thread

>>133675373
>universal healthcare and education
That's a meme

>Muh cronyism
>Not real capitalism

>>133675488
>The Soda Wars

>>133655151
Coca Cola death squads when?

>>133675373
fascist economics is pretty much socialist. Just look at ill Duce he was a raging socialist before he got fired from his newspaper and after he just rebranded for his own version of socialism

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>Sargon mentions Venezuela
>"THAT'S NOT RELEVANT!!!!"

>>133667561
What's new? Autistic capitalists v autistic socialists, neither of them have anything interesting to say I haven't hear before. Pointless debate.

>>133675373
>small regulation but heavy government oversight to look out for consumers and worker's

>>133675766
This level of delusion
>MUUHHHH THEORY

>>133655151
>IMPERIALISM IS OWNING THINGS
IMPERIALISM IS OWNING THINGS
>IMPERIALISM IS OWNING THINGS
IMPERIALISM IS OWNING THINGS
>IMPERIALISM IS OWNING THINGS
IMPERIALISM IS OWNING THINGS

how is this even a debate?

how are there people not grasping the fact that it's wrong to steal from people?

>>133674399
I'm talking about Scandinavia.

>>133674602
China's economy was in constant stagnation up until Deng dropped the socialism meme. Why do the Chinese love capitalism more than Americans?

Don't care enough about e celebs and their shitty interpretations of ideology to watch. Who's winning?

>>133675497
This might surprise you but Marx did praise certain aspects of capitalism, hence why the steps are usually as followed capitalism > socialism > communism

>>133676039
Property is theft
Thats marxism101 dude

>>133676159
Not entirely surprising, the socialist are quite young and naive

>>133676190
>Property is theft
>Unless I do it to achieve the conflict free society!

>>133675605
>I can associate regimes with excessive government control with advocates of less government controls >:)
>No! Marxist regimes from workers revolutions that seized all the means of production like North Korea and Maoist China are not real socialism! D:<
Communists are truly the niggers of the political spectrum.

>>133676145
>Why do the Chinese love capitalism more than Americans?
Who are you kidding? Americans don't even know what the fuck socialism is. Have you seen videos of Bernie supporters being interviewed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlGijkDteFA

>>133676181
I know the dialectic right. But why do you want to push the revolution yourself? Just let the forces work and it will happen. (not)

>>133676145
I was reacting to the latter part

>>133676181
In reality the steps are some sort of short lived semi-capitalism, followed by socialism, followed by some sort of capitalism

I love how the weakest link of the socialist side is the one speaking the most

>>133676422
>not an american
This makes it more interesting. What are you?

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>Picasso
>Great mind

>>133676504
>But why do you want to push the revolution yourself?
Why did the capitalists want to get rid of feudalism?

>Just let the forces work and it will happen
We'll be killed by capitalists when the world reaches a certain point of automation

>>133667203
But the capitalist parts and socialist parts (on "obligations to society" taken up by the government) are actual examples of the ideologies.

Any "commie" who engages in working for currency to buy a product is engaging in capitalism. Both Socialism and Capitalism are all encompassing terms for beliefs held by rightists and leftists. A self proclaimed capitalist enjoying "socialist" benefits given by the government does not make him any less of a capitalist. The grey area between the perceived view of both ideologies is where a nation's success is found.

>>133676870
There was never a materialist theory predicting the shift to capitalism. Just people like Adam Smith arguing the merits of protection of private ownership and free economic action.

Sargon is a retard
>What are service sector jobs

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Leftypol literally whos v centrists. Hold on to your respective seats, boys

>>133677390
Radical centrists

>>133677180
These modes have all been a phase in human development. That's my point

“The bourgeoisie, wherever it has got the upper hand, has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. It has pitilessly torn asunder the motley feudal ties that bound man to his ‘natural superiors.’”

"It compels all nations, on pain of extinction, to adopt the bourgeois mode of production; it compels them to introduce what it calls civilisation into their midst, i.e., to become bourgeois themselves. In one word, it creates a world after its own image.”

- Karl Marx

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Glad to see we'll see so many legitimate right wingers ever posted in a debate.

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>>133655151
>tfw when the socialist supporters don't mention me and post WW2 Social Democratic revolution harnessing capital allied with investment by the state.

>When no-one mentions the role of money-creation and fiat currency

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>>133655151

>WE HAVE AUSTERITY IN EUROPE
Lad we have a 55% tax rate above 55grand
Every fucking thing is subsidised and regulated
THAT'S OUR PROBLEM

>>133678008
>Killing 1% instead of removing the capitalist class
>USSR had positive growth outside of WW2
0/10 needs more effort

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>this finnish fucking babbling

Socialism is literally a system based on theft. Morally reprehensible. Case closed.

"I'm not even white"

Remember Sargon has literally said this live on stream. How can you fucks defend him?

>>133678264
not being white doesn't mean you can't make a valid argument, retard

>>133678264
I don't care
>I don't care
I don't care
>I don't care
I don't care
>I don't care
I don't care
>I don't care
I don't care
>I don't care
I don't care
>I don't care
I don't care
>I don't care
I don't care
>I don't care
I don't care
>I don't care
I don't care
>I don't care


Haha, so SILLY of you to care!

>>133675818
We're talking about the government banning pornography and sex toys, harmful ingredients like high fructose corn syrup, adverts aimed at children that encourage poor behavior, etc. These bans would be a clear-cut list, rather than a bunch of red-tape to work through.

>>133675747
Socialists want workers to seize the means of production, fascist economics allows for private enterprise.

>>133675602
Universal healthcare and education worked quite well before we started introducing ethnics into the mix. Now healthcare's strained to breaking point and education has been reformed to facilitate a multicultural society, with different sorts of schools up and down the country.

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>>133666911
YEH LETS GO BACK TO COMMUNISMS XDDD

>>133677903
>posts Marx
>thinks this is an answer

> to adopt the bourgeois mode of production: Liberty from government interference and protection of ownership
>bad thing

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final thought:
>Do not be too afraid to pull the trigger

my thoughts exactly

Debate has concluded

>>133665255

Yeah I don't see how you could dispute that gibs would exacerbate degeneration.

>>133678578
>thinks this is an answer
The quote was for reference, i gave you my answer more than once now.

>protection of ownership
>bad thing
Yes

>liberty
In what regard, who are you exploiting for their labor?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWqvaMEFIdI

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REMINDER:
THE RIGHT-WINGERS "CAPITALISM WILL INEVITABLY COLLAPSE, COMMUNISM IS INEVITABLE"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

NOT EVEN CAPITALISTS CAN DEFEND CAPITALISM

>>133655151
I'm poor, therefore I support socialism.

I find it funny how diplomatic and civil these guys are being when, in the event that the great clash begins, these guys will literally be at each other's throats. It feels strange trying to respect your enemy when that hasn't been in history since WW2.

>>133678551
>Conquest statistics
ok buddy did Stalin personally kill your whole family with a pistol too?

>>133680092
No, he just killed me with an ice pick

>>133680092
Famine = conquest?
righto

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>>133680225
Good

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>>133678722
Lol

>>133679213
How can they even compete?

>>133680226
>Conquest includes natural disasters along with bad harvests as proof of Communist death toll
>Genuinely believing 60 Million people can die in a decade
Communist "deathtolls" are 6 gorillion x 100

>>133656134
he has California syndrome and its chronic a helicopter is the only thing that will work

>>133680956
>MAO DINDU NUFFIN HOLODOHOAX
>Deciding to kill birds cuz u dont like them thus letting thousands of bugs reproduce unchecked and eat all your crops is part of a conquest
n1

>>133679217
Can confirm. anons peers show this with their begging mafia in Dublin.
Respec

>>133680741
well he stop commies so it was a success
> look at russia for ex