Dear conservacucks, I would challenge any of you to present a

>>133575295
If you were aborted would you be reading this?

>>133575295
It's 2017. We have birth control for females, as well as physical contraceptives for males and females. There's absolutely 0 excuse to get pregnant in the first place.

>>133575457
I wouldnt care, as I'd never have been self aware.

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>>133575295
Because science has also declared that 7/10 mother who go through with the abortion goes through a form of depression. 2/3 of that demographic is out of neurosis.

Pain on the level of the child is on one flip side of the coin, it's also the matter of the mother. And considering you're alive to bitch about it, I feel somewhat annoyed that you have no regard or sympathy towards the helpless who has no voice for it's future, or it's contributions to the world.

>>133575457
If your parents decided not to have children, would you be reading this? Is not having children as morally egregious as abortion in your eyes?

>>133575611
Why would I feel sympathy for organisms that are incapable of suffering? Fetuses are about as entitled to moral consideration as rocks are.

>>133575295
It should be discouraged but legal.
Damages the mothers mental health.
Learn to google.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7610.2005.01538.x/full

>>133575645
yes

From an objection standpoint, science has no consensus on what defines "consciousness" so it's a tedious topic to dwell on.

>>133575774
So in your approximation, every fertile mother is morally compelled to bear as many children as she is physically capable of carrying?

>>133575466
what about rape or children who are downie or have some other deffect, like those retard frog blonde girls that often get posted here?

I'm pro abortion, although what I wouldn't want is having to pay for the abortion of Brayan and Britany because they didn't use protection... although I think it's better for that kid to get aborted with such idiot parents like that.

>>133575842
The capacity to recognize oneself as a distinct being, form lasting memories, ect...

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>>133575737
Because it is the duty of Fate, not Mothers to don the veil of cruelty to maintain a fair and cold world. It is natural to protect a life you cherish with your hands. Anyone who does not see this, especially as parents, are not natural. A creature that destroys it's offspring, not on the sake of survival but lack of morals is a defect of natural selection.

>>133576067
The whole "it's natural" arguement is bullshit. Nature is cold and brutal and doesn't give a shit about you.

>>133576067
Why is nature inherently ideal? Why are unnatural actions inherently unethical?

>>133575295
>Medical authorities are in consensus that fetuses do not feel pain prior to 27 weeks
That is incorrect. Fetuses respond to painful stimulus after just 8 weeks:

1. Gupta, 2008, p.74, col.2, para.2, “Movement of the fetus in response to external stimuli occurs as early as 8 weeks gestation…”

Gupta R, Kilby M, Cooper G. Fetal surgery and anaesthetic implications. Continuing Education in Anaesthesia, Critical Care & Pain. 8:2 (2008) 71-75.

2. Glover, 2004, p.36, para.4, “The fetus starts to make movements in response to being touched from eight weeks, and more complex movements build up, as detected by real time ultrasound, over the next few weeks.”

Glover V. The fetus may feel pain from 20 weeks; The Fetal Pain Controversy. Conscience. 25:3 (2004) 35-37.

Notice I provided a source while you did not. That's because you are a satanic, baby-murdering liar and I'm looking forward to your burning in hell forever and ever and ever. Enjoy.

>>133575295

Accepting your bullshit argument, I can't be a human without having been a fetus, so why would I support killing something that will be a human.

>>133575550
Perfect. So kill yourself. Medical science knows that a human jumping off a cliff dies before they experience pain as it's near instantaneous.

>>133575941

Abortion under these circumstances only creates another victim and does nothing to address the problem.

>>133576203
Society is natural, progression is natural. Traditions are natural. But the destruction of oneself, to one's legacy for the intent of nothing but it's destruction is not natural. A wolf mother would only deem a child to be eaten if she may survive another day that others live in it's place. What is the excuse for abortion besides convenience? A mother wolf in the right conditions can even adopt a stranger runt into her family. Nature can only be defined by the people who understand that it does not always follow human logic.

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>>133575295
I personally am pro-life only after the 1st trimester because the central nervous system is pretty well blueprinted for development by that point and it's what I've chosen as my "point where life probably means something."

I ultimately try to not pass a lot of judgement on what someone else chooses to do. I don't think the government should have any part in anything having to do with abortion -- neither outlawing it nor funding Planned Parenthood. I wish it weren't so normal to get abortions (see shoutyourabortion.com). I think a lot of my issue has to do with the alt-left casual child hate mixed with all the shit they're doing to make it normal to rape kids and decrease the population.

>>133576264
"At seven weeks' gestation.3 An intact spinothalamic projection might be viewed as the minimal necessary anatomical architecture to support pain processing, putting the lower limit for the experience of pain at seven weeks' gestation.

At this time, however, the nervous system has yet to fully mature. No laminar structure is evident in the thalamus or cortex, a defining feature of maturity.4,5 The external wall of the brain is about 1 mm thick and consists of an inner and outer layer with no cortical plate. The neuronal cell density of the outer layer is much higher than that of a newborn infant or adult and at seven weeks' gestation has yet to receive any thalamic projections. Without thalamic projections, these neuronal cells cannot process noxious information from the periphery."

In short, the minimum structures required for physical sensation are present at 8 weeks, this does not necessarily indicate that physical sensation actually occurs. Also, reflexive movement in response to sensory information does not indicate pain.

"Can fetuses Feel Pain?" - Stuart Derbyshite

>>133575295
>Fetuses are incapable of suffering or self awareness, and thus need not be regarded as persons.
Citation needed. Also there are people who have conditions that also prevent them from feeling pain. They are persons. Personhood is not determined by conditions of the person but rather an agreement by society and can exceed any limitation you wish to impose.

Get bent.

>>133576492
Convenience is a perfectly valid reason.

>>133576242
Unnatural actions do not nessicarily mean unethical. It's natural to have scorn and hatred for a race and creed of men who intended your race and creed harm, it's not ethical in the terms of the culture. At the same time, Christians are taught to love their enemies. It's ethical but it's not natural. When there is a conflict between two entities they always clash but it's never about ethics. Ethics are only really plausible in application when there is no conflict or rather what it amounts to after a conflict.

When I say what you propose is unnatural is...name me an animal that kills a child for the sake of inconvenience and not for the sake of survival?

>>133576752
Another thing that needs to be payed attention to is also sentience

>>133575295
All human beings deserve fundamental rights the most basic of which is the right to life.

>>133576482
What's the main problem?

>>133576492
>traditions are natural
Right, slavery used to be a tradition, as was human sacrifice. Again, just because you use the word "natural" doesn't automatically make anything a good thing.

Abortion is simply a choice, like euthanasia is. If the mother's life was in danger because of her nigger kid, would you abort the kid? A lot of women died in childbirth before medicine because that's natural, but I guess the "convenience" of modern hospitals and whatnot isn't an excuse to let a mother die.

>>133576849
I cant, yet I fail to comprehend the relevance of that.

>>133576828
Consented Sex at risk of it's consequences is unnatural as well as foolish.

>>133575842
At the very least being self aware and able to think abstractly are good criteria for consciousness

you were once a fetus. end of argument. morons

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>>133575295
Just say it with me, anon.....
"You like killing." End of story.
Even if you just consider it an organism, organisms are still living.
Stop living the delusion. Just admit it already. Death is a natural part of life and you like the power of that choice.

>>133576264
Interesting, thanks for the info.
Only thing I find weird about when I hear this point argued is that it justifies or condemns abortion on the basis of pain when you'd maybe think that an argument for/against "life" would consider something more philosophical. But maybe I'm just talking to people who use this as the backbone of their argument where others have a more nuanced opinion.

>>133575295
You are self-aware though and know what you are doing.....

>>133576904
Why? Rights are an abstract concept that humans created. How do you determine what is a right and what isn't?

>>133576904
I find this hilarious because especially in USA, people who are pro-life are also pro-death penalty.

>>133577022
Slavery is natural. It's mental conditioning as well as a culture. Drones of a hive do what they are taught to do for the betterment of the hive and to enjoy the perks of it's groupling.

If you're trying to moralize this whole situation, I would not bother. Abortion much like consuming one's child, or leaving a child behind for the sake of the pack is a choice except one is natural. Abortion is literally a queen wasp attacking her own eggs because she sees it as a danger, and the question is, a danger to what? That is what I refer to when I speak of naturality.

If a Mother's life is in danger, naturally the mother must be saved, I don't condemn that. What I condemn is that the choice all abortions have are "naturally" held, and ethnically approved. It's not so. It's an aesthetic and an anodyne for a senseless desire to slaughter one's off spring.

Why is it that when the mother wants to keep it, the baby is worth SO much (to the point that if someone were to kill it, jail may ensue), but when the mother doesn't want it, it suddenly isn't worth anything?

An unborn baby either has worth or it doesn't.

Also: when a pregnant woman is killed it's called a double murder.

>>133577434
Yes, but there is a difference between a being that has never been able to wrong someone and someone who has killed someone.

>>133575295
Sanctity of human life is not reliant on religion.

>>133575295
>current evidence seems to suggest that babies are not self aware until after birth.

they aren't self aware until 2

are you then in support of infant euthanaisa until the baby can pass a self recognition test OP? I myself would support this initiative, sentience is what makes us human not being a meat back capable of moving

>>133577434
>baby has commited no crimes
>death penalty applied to criminals through due process
yep, no fallacy there.

>>133575295
Friendly reminder that leftism is atrocity training.

>>133576904
except niggers

>>133577449
>Abortion is literally a queen wasp attacking her own eggs because she sees it as a danger, and the question is, a danger to what? That is what I refer to when I speak of naturality.


wtf? How is a family that can't afford a kid the same as a threatened queen bee?

>>133577434

One of them hasn't committed a sin yet.

>>133575983
Good for you. SCIENCE has no firm definition.

>>133577076
I wouldnt give two shits if I were aborted, I wouldn't have been conscious or capable of suffering. I wouldn't be here if my parents opted not to have kids, is it morally egregious in your eyes not to have kids?

>>133575928
>implying that women shouldn't bear as many children as possible
>implying that white women shouldn't bear as many children as possible

Do you know where you are?

>>133575295
Medical authorities don't even know what phenomenological pain is which is the only one that matters in this regard.

>>133575295
You're whole argument is invalid good bait 2/10 at best.

>>133577449
Tell me something, do you really care if some Shaniqua 4837 miles away from you, who you'll never meet or affect you in any way, aborts her fetus? Assuming you're not paying for it.

Basically, if you don't like something, don't do it.

>>133577617
"baby" is not a person, baby is an amalgamation of cells incapable of consciousness.

>>133575295

Here you go:

Once you create life either through intent or negligence with your sexual behaviors, you've created a new human (you can use liberalspeak to try and say "MUH CLUMP OF CELLS", but it'll be a human if left to develop as intended), you are no longer morally able to delete its existence without having to accept you terminated another being. Why is it valid to terminate a human who is working to form into a being who wants to survive just so you can have your convenience to live like a shitpile?

Liberal retards love to say "MUH BASED BLACK KID WHO GOT SHOT BY THE COPS MIGHT HAVE CHANGED THE WORLD, THIS IS A TRAGEDY!!!" but simultaneously use every pretzel logic excuse to validate terminating new lives that MIGHT actually do something good while standing up for shit-tier humanity whose only mission was to become fertilizer.

Liberals, retarded every single time.

>>133575295
Penis

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>>133577564
which is why we should protect every human life regardless of creed or race

>>133577720
So you would then claim to say the person who took the risk of having this child is infact flawed? The means of survival does not consist of having sex for entertainment.

Even if the conditions of the coupling were without consent, it'd be even more natural to abandon the child than kill it. (Or if you wanted to put ethics into it, adoption.)

>>133577906
In my mind, sentience is a prerequisite to personhood.

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>>133575295
evidence seems to suggest that murdering people generally doesn't hurt me. therefore it is ok, as pain obviously is the only qualifier for the justness of any action.

>>133577906
Why is human life so special?

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>>133576904
>a fetus is a person

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>>133577901
Much like you big surprise!

>>133578032
I'm a strict utilitarian, so yes.

>>133577611
They are also not aware at any age when they're asleep, which means you can kill any sleeping person you want.

it is cuckservative you muppet

When chromosomes cross over it a unique even. One that will never happen again the same way.

Because it is not possible to separate a person from society and the sanctity of life must be preserved in order for people to function in society. If we devalue human life we can reasonably expect that people will commit tragedies upon each other in their daily lives.

Take for example China
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2015/09/why_drivers_in_china_intentionally_kill_the_pedestrians_they_hit_china_s.html

In a society with state mandated abortions it's no wonder that they begin to devalue each other. Such a society I don't wish to live in.

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>>133575295
>It's a human life, but it is not a person.
hu·man
ˈ(h)yoomən/
noun
noun: human; plural noun: humans
1.
a human being, especially a person as distinguished from an animal or (in science fiction) an alien.
synonyms: person, human being, personage, mortal, member of the human race; man, woman;
individual, soul, living soul, being;
Homo sapiens;
earthling
"the link between humans and animals"
per·son
ˈpərs(ə)n/
noun
noun: person; plural noun: people; plural noun: persons; noun: first person; noun: second person; noun: third person
1.
a human being regarded as an individual.
"the porter was the last person to see her"
synonyms: human being, individual, man/woman, child, human, being, (living) soul, mortal, creature; personage, character, customer;
informaltype, sort, cookie;
informal,body, dog;
archaicwight
"that person over there is the one who called the police"
>It's a human life, but it is not a person.
>It's a person, but it is not a person.
>It's a human life, but it is not human life.

This is your logic. I weep for you.

Answer me this, OP.

>Being pro abortion for non-whites. In this case it should be encouraged like the Democrats often do in every major city.
>Being against abortion for whites though because they are better.

Do you have a problem with this line of thought?

>>133578170
Always archive those
https://archive.is/asuZS

>>133578096
murdering a sleeping individual subjects their relatives to emotional suffering, and is thus impermissible.

>>133577996
I mean I don't really have an opinion but I don't think it's the equivalent of the queen bee scenario you came up with.

I don't think people who get abortions feel that their status in society is threatened because of female fetuses.

>>133577901
And how the hell would you know what's capable of consciousness when no one has the faintest idea what consciousness actually is.

>>133577434
Every "argument" against the death penalty is emotional and incoherent.

>>133578185
I do indeed, white supremacy/nationalism is bullshit.

>>133575295
Abort babies because they're unwanted
Import immigrants because you need to grow the economy

Or
Stop aborting your population and have a country like with good economic growth

>>133578170
>not possible to separate a person from society

So you don't believe in the individual?

>>133578231
It's wrong to kill someone who nobody would miss, too, idiot.

>>133578358
Why do you care which babies are being killed as long as we kill them?

>>133578231
What if we also killed all of the person's close relatives, also in their sleep? I get your point but there are things we care about morally that go beyond simply not inflicting suffering. Otherwise we'd all be antinatalists who go on a crusade to kill everyone painlessly so they can stop suffering.

>>133577901
We'll see how capable of "consciousness" you're capable of while you're getting struck by lightning.

And yet, people survive lightning strikes, and these survivors tend to heal and restore their consciousness to full or partial functionality...given sufficient TIME.

Simply because you don't have consciousness at a particular point in time is insufficient to conclude you're not a person. Furthermore, seeing how, given sufficient time without negative interference, a fetus will develop consciousness, it would seem anything that can have a consciousness at ANY time would qualify as a person, by the "consciousness standard".

>Tell me something...

Tell me something, do you really care if some Sandnigger 7560 miles away from you, who you'll never meet or affect you in any way, murders a random white woman? Assuming you're not paying for it.

My answer? Yes. Yes I do.

>>133575295
All life is miraculous, especially human life, and ending a life for anything other than survival or to ensure the right and just order of things should be avoided if possible. Allowing people to terminate their pregnancies teaches them that sex can be abused for pleasure and their actions don't have consequences. Sexual liberation and extreme individualism: harbingers of a civilization in decline.

>>133578471
I dont... Abortion is permissible regardless of race.

>>133578077
so you do not believe that the actions of human beings are generally aimed at improving the human condition for the exchange of money? because as you likely know, economic productivity rises with population and thereby standard of living. that baby would have made an impact on the quest of having billions out of poverty, but that's obviously a far lesser concern for a true utilitarian than anybody feeling pain while being cut into pieces in his mothers womb.

>>133578403
Well, there are words that describe matter at different levels from the microscopic to the macroscopic, but they are just ideas in our mind. Matter itself is not actually differentiated into "trees" or "cars" or "water" or "people". It's all one single wash of self-identical energy.

>>133575295
I want you to site your sources for claiming fetuses are incapable of suffering. Further, if it's true, the fact that they can't feel pain doesn't deny them their human rights. Would a grown man in a coma who can't feel pain or for that matter have no self prception suddenly become less than a human?
My compelling argument against abortion is that there is an unborn person whose right to life shouldn't be superseded by a mother's regret. Can you explain how one can support the murder of an unborn baby and still have a sane moral compass?

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>>133575295
For cases of actual, legitimate rape, or simply for those who accidentally got pregnant and cannot afford to raise the child in a healthy environment, I am for abortion.
It becomes a problem though when it's seen as a get out of jail free card for a poor decision to not use protection or birth control.
>Honey, I'm going down to Dr. Shekelstein's office again today. Can we do it again tonight? My punch card almost has enough for a discount.
Just do pic related instead if that's what the whore wants. Much cheaper.

Using the "feel no pain before 27 weeks" argument is retarded because assaulting someone who has no sense of touch is still illegal. Plain and simple, abortion stops a beating heart. Plus, I am 99 percent sure I was a mistake b/c conceived 2nd week of February.

>>133578669
So there is no problem at all with encouraging it for a certain race while discouraging it for another.

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>>133575295
if its true that they are in concensus that 27 week old babies dont feel pain then this is truly evil. they have covered up the fact on a massive scale that this is what a 27 week old baby looks like. liberals are pure evil baby killers.

>>133578648
Why, praytell, is life inheritly valuable when separated from consciousness? It seems to me that your argument rests solely on vague, moral platitudes.

>>133578242
If it were a matter of status it would not be so proudly wavered about, so proudly. Status is a perception and one shared within a family is personal, often times private.

This is a matter of function and what power is behind that function. A woman is the only gender that can produce children and no animal in this world except a select few monogendered species can refute this. But humans lack the biological traits and functions to achieve that function.

What you might not know is that...in their attempt, in the volition to seek empowerment...that control how one's body functions. But here's where things begin to get blurred. It's not a question of whether or not it is ethical to control this function.

It's a question of what is to be gained by this practice?

>>133575295
everytime I cook an organic egg I watch a small lump of cells screaming.

>>133575295
You don't seem to be self aware either, so I guess I can murder you, non-person.

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ABORTION IS BLACK GENOCIDE

Abortion is the #1 killer of blacks in America

>>133578933
Good. Keep it up, democrats.

>>133578648
>Allowing people to terminate their pregnancies teaches them that sex can be abused for pleasure and their actions don't have consequences
This in particular is the dumbest argument there is. Do airbags teach people that driving can be abused for pleasure? If preventative measures exist, why is making use of them irresponsible?

>>133578764
I would contend that that doesnt happen

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>>133575295
Here is my argument OP.

A liberal will tell you that one cell on Mars is life but a fetus is a living mother's womb is not.

Reminder that abortion is the most heinous action in this world.

>>133578933
That's not true, though.

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WE CAN'T ALLOW BEAUTIFUL BLACK PRINCES TO BE KILLED BY RACIST WHITE DOCTORS AT PLANNED PARENTHOOD

>>133575295
conservacucks want minorities to breed.

abortion is highest among poor blacks and inner city.

keep abortion illegal and ridding planned parenthood cucks. this means the niggers will be breeding even more.

>>133579053
It should and often actually does. Blacks overwhelmingly kill their offspring. More of them are aborted than born in some places. This needs to continue.

>>133579144 Unfortunately

>>133578244
Based

>>133575295
As long as it kills more niggers than any anything else, I'll fully support it. I'm not pro-choice, I'm pro-abortion, put a clinic on every block in every major city. I'll gladly pay taxes for this if the clinics employ people and pay them piece rate for bringing nigresses in for abortions and massive bonuses for each tubal ligation performed.

Tinfoil: maybe the reason why Trump is against abortion is because of the international child ring and how they use abortions in rituals and banning them is saying he is against the international ring

>>133578811
Op I want you to look at this. If you killed it now you would have commited one of the most horrid crimes that ever existed. but if you killed it 24 hours before this picture was made it would be jsut fine. Think about how fucking evil you are in your heart if you think thats ok.

>>133579034
Destroying a baby you made isn't a "preventative measure", though. It's almost identical to the approach of binging on junk food and then throwing it up so you don't get fat. It says a lot about your character if you even consider it.

>>133578933
#2 is other blacks.

I often wondered whether there is a golden spot where you can decrease the amount of murdered black people by murdering black people.

>>133575295
Woman need to not be complete whores and mabe abortion wouldn't be asked for in the first place. Fucking left is a bunch of unfaithful sluts

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>>133579182
I'd infect them with the Genophage and maintain the idea of my Christian Purity. Win win.

>>133579034
A condom is a preventative measure. An abortion is not. The consequence for purposefully driving unsafely is often death.

>>133575295
>>133577468
Yes, constitutionally it's murder in criminal cases but judges threw that out at the time of Roe v Wade. Obviously the Supreme Court needs to repeal Roe v Wade or stop charging for double murder. My hope is that Roe v Wade is overturned because it is right to charge as murder to kill an unborn.

>>133579279
This guy knows what's up. OP doesn't realize that we love abortion if it's not happening to our people.

fetus is life

>>133578874
I don't even care what is or isn't to be gained. I care about whether this "perception" is consistent with existing facts.

Because ultimately, nobody fucking cares what anyone "perceives" when determining ethics codes nor policy; they only care about what premises they can base these systems off of. And if someone's "perception" is inconsistent with logic and/or facts, there is serious reason to even consider it when devising such systems.

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>>133575295
There are other angles to look at this beside what you present. I find the most annoying thing about abortion is the arbitrariness of the definition of human life.

If a woman decides to have an abortion, the fetus just become medical waste, it is just a procedure.

If a fetus is terminated because of a drunk driver hitting the mother, or a boyfriend beating her womb into paste, suddenly it is murder/manslaughter.

Well, which is it? Medical waste or a fucking human, make up your goddamn minds once and for all.

>>133575295
Only scum get abortions
If the child would be born they would be raised by scum. It is simple voluntary eugenics.
Christfags are too cucked to understand this

>>133577901
So is anyone in a coma, do I get to kill them at my discretion?

>>133579397
>we
pretty fucking cringy man.

>>133579299
12 weeks should be enough to decide, amirite?

>>133579299
Why is its appearance relevant? Its incapable of sentience or experiencing suffering. By all means kill it.

>>133575295
Is it okay to kill someone on life support? Nope, unless they have no chance of living. Do fetuses have a chance at living? They certainly do. Therefor, it's wrong. However, I don't think it should be illegal. If it's going to be legal, then it should be legal all the way up till then very end of the term. Whether it's 2 months in or 8.5 months, it still has the same consequences for the baby. They are killed.

>>133575295
Human life begins at conception.

>>133579561
Do you give a fuck if non-whites kill their kids? Are you even aware of the situation in the US?

>>133579290
Bumping own comment for opinions

>>133575295

Atheist here and you only need to look as far as the Charlie Gard case to see why you don't want to go down the ethical slippery slope of defining personhood.

Once someone else can decide you're no longer a human you've lost everything.

Today fetus in the womb, tomorrow impaired baby outside the womb, next week impaired child, next year impaired adult, year after that, adult with political opinions that render him "unfit for the presidency."

Liberals are not good with value judgements or recognizing how laws can and will be abused to evil ends because they wander around in a cloud of emotional decision making dependent on how they felt in the last five seconds.

Devaluing human life hurts everyone every single time it occurs.

>>133575295
>babies are not self aware
Neocortical function, how does it work?

You're actually replying which means you probably aren't a troll.

>>133579582
I dont believe in abortion
>>133579610
that baby can feel pain more than you or me. it also grew into a healthy person. this is why liberals will be removed from America soon. You are pure evil.

>>133579671
unfertilized sex cells possess a "chance of living", is it ethically impermissible not to bear children?

>>133579695
if youre into baby killing you need to kill yourself.

>>133579388
>The consequence for purposefully driving unsafely is often death.

The consequence for safe driving can also be death. Should we do away with seatbelts and airbags so people learn this lesson?

>>133575295
Fuck off, shill
Saged and reported

>>133579827
Killing white babies should be a capital offense. Others can go fuck themselves. Who cares? They're not my people being murdered by liberals. If the democrats want to kill off their own voter base then so be it.

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Naturally your having sex for two reasons pleasure and for kids every living thing does it and only humans have found ways to by pass it but if we have sex you are doing it for booth so if you get pregnant it's your responsibility now since you got booth ends of the deal
>don't mind me just a commie fuck passing through

>>133579767
12 weeks is perfectly ok, this late stage crap isn't. abortion is reality, better accept it as a fact.

>>133579964
protecting your race is fine but killing is not needed to do so in this society.

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>>133579772
Self-awareness isn't the deciding factor for personhood; the scientists that argue that (and there are many) believe infants up to a year or two should be allowed to die of natural causes- it'd be like letting an animal die.

This, by the way, is what the ancient Romans did when the father didn't want the child, it was called exposure.

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>>133579497
>Well, which is it? Medical waste or a fucking human, make up your goddamn minds once and for all.

It's both. The facts as described by you, imply that what you're facing is a matter of property. As such it can be both: waste if it is unwanted, and a punishable offence in case it is wanted but damaged by a third party.

>>133579772
Unfertilized sex cells are not a fetus. Unfertilized sex cells do not possess a chance of living in the same way that a fetus does. A fetus doesn't need to merge with another fetus.

>>133575295
My thoughts on the matter are that a fetus is a being with human potential. We should protect the human's untapped potential and their right to take a shot at this life. We can't be 100% sure to what degree they feel pain, if there is any sort of consciousness or other arguments like that.

Plain and simple, there is something wrong about stamping out a being that has the potential of a human being.

With that, I do think abortion should be legal, despite it being wrong. I feel like it being legal helps elevate society by keeping people (and the children they spawn) out of a lower status of poverty. It helps to prevent even more burden on government programs to deal with these unprepared parents and their children. It helps to ensure that families are more prepared and stable when they do have children, thus raising higher quality children.

Abortion should be discouraged and frowned upon, but it should be legal as it benefits society as a whole. If religion has it completely right, then they will have to face the consequences in the end of their days. Who am I to tell someone not to do something damning to themselves if it's for the greater good of everyone else?

>>133578718
Except when you realize the poor can't afford an abortion so it'll affect you by coming out of your pocket, especially when it's the tenth aborted child. A better situation would be to put the unwanted children into an artificial womb and then let it go to adoption, supported by charities.

>>133579746
Posted this before, but here it is again:

"At seven weeks' gestation.3 An intact spinothalamic projection might be viewed as the minimal necessary anatomical architecture to support pain processing, putting the lower limit for the experience of pain at seven weeks' gestation.

At this time, however, the nervous system has yet to fully mature. No laminar structure is evident in the thalamus or cortex, a defining feature of maturity.4,5 The external wall of the brain is about 1 mm thick and consists of an inner and outer layer with no cortical plate. The neuronal cell density of the outer layer is much higher than that of a newborn infant or adult and at seven weeks' gestation has yet to receive any thalamic projections. Without thalamic projections, these neuronal cells cannot process noxious information from the periphery."

"Can fetuses Feel Pain?" - Stuart Derbyshite

In short, the minimum structures required for physical sensation/consciousness are present at 8 weeks, this does not necessarily indicate that physical sensation actually occurs. Also, reflexive movement in response to sensory information does not indicate pain.

>>133580048
if youre implying I dont think abortion is real then you are pretty fucking stupid.

They are literally farming human babies for stem cells and abortion fees. Its selling body parts and its just wonderful in the eyes of the democrats.

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>>133580095

>>133580167
No matter what abortion services shouild be %100 independent of taxpayer money.
On a related note, yay for the Republic of Ireland, screw the U.N.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39183423

>>133575295
Too easy... my argument against abortion is easy... the more Caucasian abortions the fewer in the U.S.A....do you REALLY want to become a minority in your own country?

>>133580086
Last year minority births outnumbered white births. If they weren't killing their own kids in record numbers we'd be in a far worse situation. Fuck them. Keep funding those planned parenthood murder sites in minority places.

>>133575295
They don't have any good arguments against it. They claim conservatism but are nothing more than evangelicals playing the part of conservatives.

>>133580150
I am glad we will never live in ancap world.

>>133580156
Unfertilized sex cells have the potential to become individuals, is it ethically permissible not to have children? How far removed does the potential have to be for it not to matter?

>>133580363
>I'll just ignore the entire thread and say nobody had an argument.

lurk for at least a year before you post again.

>>133580287
AGAIN, neocortical function does not determine personhood. >>133580095
Are you a fan of Peter Singer by chance?

>>133580347
Quite frankly I dont give two shits, ethnonationalism is for whiny cunts.

>>133575295

And while we're at it let's keep everyone who's dying terribly of something or has become a vegetable on life support forever!!!! Doesn't matter cause life is SOOOOOOO important!!!!

Also animals kill their offspring all the fucking time even after they're fucking born. Nature doesn't seem to give two shits about life just that the ones that can survive do depending on whatever circumstance it may be.

And that choice is often dependent on the person supplying life to their offspring and none of you faggots should have any say on her decision.

I also agree that 3rd trimester abortions are a little too fucked up though.

>>133580526
I'm somewhat familiar with him, why do you ask?

Tinfoil:

maybe the reason why Trump is against abortion is because of the international child ring and how they use abortions in rituals and banning them is saying he is against the international ring.


What is your opinion?

>>133580316
now that did move me.

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>>133580287
and when I kick a bucket, doesn't he scream and deforms in pain over the corruption of his structure?

>>133580587
Alex Jones Bullshit

>>133580335
Actually they should be disallowed, and the procedure of transferring a fetus to the artificial womb should be supported by charities for the poor too, instead of tax payers.

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>>133580586
Because he's the godfather of your train of thought

>Singer holds that the right to life is essentially tied to a being's capacity to hold preferences, which in turn is essentially tied to a being's capacity to feel pain and pleasure.

>In Practical Ethics, Singer argues in favour of abortion rights on the grounds that fetuses are neither rational nor self-aware, and can therefore hold no preferences. As a result, he argues that the preference of a mother to have an abortion automatically takes precedence. In sum, Singer argues that a fetus lacks personhood.

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>>133575295
>compelling arguement against abortion
muh rights

>>133578053
Because it's the only life of it's kind we know for a fact exists within this universe. You can say aliens, fairies, angels, demons, God, Satan, etc. But the only intelligences we have to go off of is our own.

We have nothing else to compare to but ourselves.

>>133575295
>Dear libtard, I would challenge any of you to present a compelling arguement against rape not reliant upon your feelz.

>>133580374
because there you have abortion for some and no abortion for others? good for you that other people can decide what's best for you. the abortion discussion doesn't touch that problem in the slightest.

>>133580735
I'm inclined to agree. I'm more familiar with Bentham and the likes.

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>>133575295
I personally think that abortion is murder and wrong. Defending the unborn is a duty for all people and all states.

Only leftest cucks and Common Household bitches kill their own.

I cry for the few that could have lived and later in life been redpilled.

Meanwhile let them abort their babies and eat their Children.

>>133575295

Realized argument #2 -

Libtards don't believe in people being property, aka slavery.

Libtards think that the life you created that's a viable human if not killed by the host is property even though it's a human being.

Once again, libtard pretzel logic = massive failure. So glad I outgrew leftism's retardation so long ago.

>>133580493
You really one of those lurk moar faggots?
Not a single point in this tread has been reasonable enough to deny women the option of abortion. All just moral bs.

>>133580697
Aw. I thought I was on to something..

>>133575295
Abortion--as with other methods of birth control--allows people to escape the consequences of degenerate, hedonistic actions, which makes society worse off as a whole.

>>133575295
easy if abortion was a moral thing to do, you would have been aborted, shit can we retroactively abort your frogposting ass, its not like your self aware in any way shape or form.

>>133580355
The system needs fixing people shouldn't be allowed to have tons of babies as a career. Women have been given too many freedoms and they are abusing every one of them.

>>133575295
>>133579497
The very fact that there is obviously substantial debate over the actual logic behind abortion in and of itself lends itself to a policy doctrine, as so:

>1. If there is no substantial debate, assume that the supermajority is correct
>i.e. dolphins can't vote, because 99.9999% of our thinkers/commoners say dolphins aren't people, so they probably aren't
>2. If there IS substantial debate, carry out these actions:
>a. figure out which answer, if any, is correct
>b. set up your policy such that, until you find a correct answer, err on the side of safety, to minimize probable damage from choosing an incorrect policy

Note that ~15-20% of Americans are pro-life. Coincidentally, LESS than that had an apparent aversion to slavery back in pre-Abolitionist times. One would assume that, if the morality of slavery was not debatable, it would never have been abolished. Hence, the proportion of abolitionists, even though a minority, would have to qualify the slavery argument as "debatable" since they were a critical party of the debate over slavery.

Hence, if <15% is a sufficient minority to qualify for debate, then >15% is a sufficient minority to qualify. Hence the pro-life-choice dilemma is a debate, and not just a bunch of special shits reeing over why dolphins can't vote.

So, as a matter of policy, until the debate is actually settled, this doctrine of minimal "probable damage" (a sane one, if you ask me) requires putting a policy in place that is most likely to minimize damage in the meantime.

(cont.)

>>133578438
This OP's arguments are crazy weak.

>>133580966
you havent even read one of my replies stop posting you fucking faggot.

>>133580842
I respect your opinion but I think that's- and I just looked this up- like consequentialism
>onsequentialism is the class of normative ethical theories holding that the consequences of one's conduct are the ultimate basis for any judgment about the rightness or wrongness of that conduct.
E.G.- and this is an extreme example- but bestiality should be legalized if it doesn't harm the animal

>>133575295
>conservacucks
Love when libs try to use our memes against us and fail.

>>133580167
Never did I say I supported paying for the abortion with taxpayer money. The poor have wire coat hangers, or the method the image mentioned. Besides, even if they did get the abortion paid for with taxpayer money, it would be cheaper than supporting the orphanage and hoping the kid turns out decent.

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>>133575295
This is a stupid thread.

I actaully prefere you have an abaortion. I don't want anymore stupid fuckers running around on this planet. However, i will not be paying for it with my taxes. The only way i would gladly help with your abortion is by putting a bullet between your eyes. Abortion is not part of any healthcare. Just because you want to be a roastie doesn't entitle you to the money i have earned. Now fuck you and have a merry christmas.

The only non arbitrary boundary between what is life and what is not is conception

So any abortion after conception is murder. No need to get political past that

>>133580966
Morals don't inform your outlook on the world?

>>133581074
Gonna stop you right there
>15-20 percent are pro life
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/abortion/50_still_say_abortion_is_morally_wrong
Rasmussen: even split

>>133581178
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with that. Incest as well, so long as its consensual, and both parties are adults capable of rendering consent.

>>133575295
murder is illegal.

Hiw fucking stupid are you? how dumb are you? You were once nothing but a tiny clump of sells and now your a big one, but somehow if your a small clump of cells your selfish lazy mother should be aloud without question to cut your life short, how would you feel if you got aborted? you would not, cause you would not be here trying to argue for abortion, yiu would be fucking dead. Fuck off lefty pol.

>>133581300
orphans usually turn out just fine unless they were in an abusive one.

>>133581516
10/10 my dude, really got me there

>>133579034
>Do airbags teach people that driving can be abused for pleasure?
Not exactly the same level of consequences there, anon. Your point is moot.

>>133581010
a) that's not a career. it's called severe poverty.
b) that's what people used to do since the dawn of time. remember the bible? full of that shit. likes are literally the spawn of that. so is every other group of people.
c) people should decide what's best for them themselves. if it turns out to be non-beneficial behaviour it should be left to fail. but if it succeeds there's obviously something good about it.

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>>133575295
As long as both parents agree I don't have many problems, still think is immoral but so I do with marijuana and other drugs, still don't care if it's legal.
What I do care about is what the father has to say, if the father was not informed of the pregnancy at all it should be punished by law and unless both parents agree fully women should not have the right to kill their offspring.
Also, abortion in general should be shamed in culture, kinda like promiscuity in the middle east but not by the weight of the law.

>>133576753
He referred to physical pain only because it can be implicitly assumed that emotional pain Is out of the question.

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>>133581423
Neat, so we're getting somewhere.

Not a single thread in this chain is going to convince you to change your mind b/c your views on abortion are so intwined with your views on life.

I hate abortion because I believe- yes, from a religious context- life begins at conception. The personhood of a person, to me, is not tied up in mental ability, but all people have inherent worth.

What animates me on the subject is the amount of acrimony the left has over me wanting to defund Planned Parenthood and other state abortion providers. That's what gets me upset.

Whatever

>>133575295
My mother made the correct decision to abort me -said no person ever.

>>133578438

Is it?

Can an action that causes no pain be called unethical?

>>133575295
>my body
>baby
pick one

>>133575295
I can kill you without any pain if that's the moral stance you wanna hold onto.

>>133581808
Potential for personhood arguments are bullshit. I'd not be here if my parents didnt have children, is not having children ethically impermissible?

>>133581118
Basically abortion is killing children,right? I'd argue if they are unborn then they are not truly children. Putting some arbitrary date on feeling pain or "being a human" just muddies the water. We can agree doing it before a certain date is more humane but so far I only see morality and personal feelings. At the end of the day only low quality women get abortions for any reasons other than medical.

>>133576067
>Because it is the duty of Fate, not Mothers to don the veil of cruelty to maintain a fair and cold world.
Thanks for this.

>>133581886
There are plenty of ways to have a painless death. If you kill someone painlessly, yes, it is still murder.

>>133582049
then youre an idiot. premies that are born at 27 weeks are surviving all the time. if you dont think killing babies is wrong kill yourself.

>>133581568
Really? Never hear about adoptions in-country much anymore, but I figured that they were just another problem swept under the rug due to lack of finance, care, and profitability. But I'll take your word on it for now until I do some research of my own.

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>>133582031
And that's how the rest of the night will go

t'was good speaking to ya

>>133581971
yes. an unnecessary amputation will impact your life negatively regardless whether the anaesthetic worked or not.

>>133581578
killing people is bad mkay

>>133581418
They control MY outlook,but I would never dictate my world review onto others based on my own morals. That's why the evangelical right disgusts me.

>>133581886
>>133582353

>>133581074
Now, the crux of the debate, specifically on the usual "does a woman have the right to abort" (without respect to rape, endangerment, etc.), revolves around whether the fetus is a person. So, to determine which is the least damaging policy, we look at both of the obvious scenarios, and the damage a converse policy would cause:

>A. fetus is not a person, but government outlaws abortion

The damage here is that the woman's control over her body is compromised, and, if she cares for the newborn, there's a monetary hit associated with that. Now:

>B. fetus is actually person, but abortion is always legal

The damage caused is A PERSON DIES.

Note that scenario B is inconsistent with current US law, which generally only allows ANYONE to kill somebody else for three reasons: rape, kidnapping, and deadly assault. The attempted crime against the killer must be one of these, and it must be intentional. Hence, if a fetus being aborted even if it is a person is to be rationalized, its very existence/birth must fall meet these requirements.

Which it doesn't, by its very incapability of intending to commit a crime. But we'll even ignore this for now:

KIDNAPPING: a child binding their mother by their birth can be considered a form of imprisonment, but technically speaking, there are far less dangerous (albeit more expensive) alternatives, as we already have systems in place for foster care/adoption/etc.

Yes it costs more money. No, this doesn't matter, since no amount of wealth lost is ever excusable for taking a human life under US law.

RAPE: birth is not reverse-rape, regardless of what the mother feels; whereas rape strips women of their dignity, birth is simple a normal part of the fetus' life.

KILLING: Danger to the life of the mother is outside the scope of this doctrine. It would not necessarily be prohibited to abort a fetus to save the mother; whether lives have equal value is a different debate altogether.

(cont.)

>>133582031
>Potential personhood doesn't apply to a living organism. At that point, it's no longer a potential. Some people choose to believe that a human in its earliest stages isn't a person. I argue that it is. From the moment of conception.

>>133580412
Unfertilized sex cells eventually die if they don't merge with one of the other sex. That is natural. Fertilized embryos eventually become people if we don't abort them, assuming other natural issues don't get them first. We can't really call some volume of water a cup of water until it's in a cup.

>>133575295
Abortion is murder. Women who are pro-file just want to screw guy after guy and not deal with the consequences.

>>133582301
But they were born. They were born alive and can interact with their environment on a 1 on 1 basis. That is a human. No one is advocating killing a child after it is born.

>>133581074
>>133582421
Hence, since the fetus in scenario B would usually not meet the requirements under current US law for killing another person (since they usually won't endanger the life of the mother), in the usual case, abortion would cause an unjustifiably high amount of damage (death without a good reason).

The doctrine of minimal probable damage requires that, since scenario B (where abortion is legal) would permit more unacceptable damage than scenario A if proven wrong, then abiding by the policy in scenario A is the better option.

Q.E.D.

>>133581422
>47% Pro-Life
Holy shit, even Rasmussen couldn't bias a survey THAT badly. Maybe it's higher than I thought.

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>>133575295
less niggers, as abortion is culturally acceptable eugenics.
next.

>>133582384
Morals are objective you dumb fuck. Moral relativity makes the whole concept of morals meaningless.

>>133575466
This

>>133582798
listen I'm not going have this conversation with a seperate person in the same thread read the replies or stfu.

>abortion cheapens the value of a human life...just another throw away item in a self obsessed consumer society.

>>133575295
If fetuses aren't self aware until birth why not allow abortions until the day before birth?

If being self aware is the only criteria, why not?

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>>133575295
Kek

>thinking this isn't murder
Kys you retarded nigger

Btw I only care about abortions on white children
As long as the majority of abortions is on niggers then I am fine with it

>>133583162
its funny how they show the baby with no expression on its face. it would be writhing in pain and if it had air to breath it would be screaming in pain.

>>133580582
>And that choice is often dependent on the person supplying life to their offspring and none of you faggots should have any say on her decision.

By the logic you can indirectly say everyone who hasn't decided to murder your punk ass yet is supplying you life. That argument doesn't work. Our mothers supplied us life, should they be able to snap their fingers and decide we're not allowed to live anymore? No.

A fetus is a woman's child as much as an infant, or a fully grown adult. A mother killing her child by getting an abortion is no less her killing her own child than killing her 23 year old son with a gun. If that fetus is left alone for about 24 years, that organism that was the fetus is just as much the same being as it was at week 2.

>I also agree that 3rd trimester abortions are a little too fucked up though.

So which is it? Is killing a fetus before it's born wrong or right? You can't have your cake and eat it too.


For the record: I'm not against the legality of abortion, I am against pretending it is morally and ethically righteous.

It's an expensive procedure that taxpayers have to pay for because someone didn't want to pay for five dollars worth of condoms.

Besides the abortion is murder argument, abortion provides too much of an easy out for people to excuse carelessness and lack of discipline, directly reinforcing our moral decline.

>>133576752
>doesn't indicate physical sensation
>>133576264
>responds to stimuli

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>>133583162
this is what it usually looks like

>>133575645
there's a difference between killing your child and deciding to never make the child. And me being the chosen soerm was like one in a million

>>133581074
>>133582421
>>133582902
I just realized this argument (Doctrine of Minimal Probable Damage), in practice, shifts the burden of proof onto the pro-choice camp.

Basically, this amounts to saying that, in most cases, you can't permit abortions UNLESS you can prove that the fetus is NOT a person, which would seem to be an impossibility.

How curious.

>>133575295
it's called having a heart

also
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RldK78gPrtw

>>133575295
>they can't feel pain
So if a norn person was unable to feel pain would it be okay to muder them?

>>133582930
Morals are relative? Oh shit I didn't know that. If that's the case I better not try to use mine to judge or restrict others.

>>133581618
I too believe the father is entitled to input in the decision, but it shouldn't be punishable by law. Even though it may disregard the prospective father's will, pregnancy deals with the mother's bond to her future child and her body, whereas the father only has the emotional bond so the mother should have the ultimate say. This bond between both parents and the conceived fetus is strong, but it's still the woman's body being put up to it for 9 months.

>>133584098
>muh moral relativity
Clearly, somebody missed the bit in their philosophy studies about how moral relativity is

ABSOLUTELY RETARDED

>prove, though the framework of moral relativism, that imprisonment of some old psychopath for raping children is moral if the dude thinks it's okay
>pro-tip: you can't

>>133575295
>I didn't want to get pregnant
Use a condom, take the pill, or maybe stop being a whore.
>My kid has down syndrome
Your fault for having kids after 30 with a non-white and having a unhealthy lifestyle.
>I was raped
Oh now we're onto some legitimate reason to abort. But you may as well take it as a reminder that subhumans cannot be trusted and shouldn't be in your country.
>I'm completely irresponsible and I need society to make up for it.
The essence of pro-abortion arguments, the same as
>I eat truckloads of food and don't exercise but you must pay for my healthcare
>Higher education is useless, and it's hard, but I want to make a much money as you do because you have to share
>I chose to suck dicks but I want kids so government better allow me to use a surrogate mother and pay for it and it

Fucking leftists I swear.

>>133575941
You're using those extremely rare cases to justify what the vast majority of abortions are: whores with no self control.
>children who are downie or have some other deffect, like those retard frog blonde girls that often get posted here?
That's eugenics which is a separate issue which I support.

>>133584726
this

>>133575295
all of this applies to people in comas

all of this applies to yourself as you sleep

is it okay to kill you while you sleep? I could shott you in the head with a shotgun and you' wouldn't feel a thing

this is okay because you aren't self-aware until after you wake up, and you can't suffer while sleeping, so I don't need to regard you as a person

in fact the nearby loli is in deep sleep, but she can't feel pain so it's okay for me to go over and rape that tight young little sluts cunt and if my micropenis happens to stir her sleepy slumber I'll just painlessly bash the little bitches fucking skull open with a cricket bat and then fuck the smashed fucking mushy peas and all of this okay because she isn't self-aware and wouldn't feel a thing

in fact why don't we just reduce rape rates to zero by giving all the somais and niggers a whole bunch of roffies so they can go round dropping white women into sleepy slumbers then jamming their suerpior thick fat cocks in the non-person sleepy females. it's very progressive, and everyone wins

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>>133579356
Sounds like what reserves do for population control in wild animals

>>133575295
>trying to convince yourself that mashing up unborn babies with stainless steel tongs isnt wrong

why cant you just admit that you dont mind that its kind of a shitty thing to do? i would be completely OK with people saying that, but instead they have to make up all this crap about de bebbehs not feeling pain and shit. just admit that youre foregoing your moral duty for the sake of convenience instead of playing games with yourself. gymnastics are bad for your mental health

>>133584726
Based Frenchman.

>>133577047
blacks BTFO

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>>133575295
How about instead of wasting money on a procedure that'll leave a women traumatized, you advocate for people using the cheaper and effective method of condoms?

In the event of a rape or birth that would endanger the mother, I do understand the need for abortion however.

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>>133577241
/thread

>>133575295
What if I anesthetized you and then chopped you with an axe? In that moment you wouldn't feel pain and neither be self-aware.

>>133575295
Only retards and cucks oppose abortion in principle. I don't oppose abortion in principle, but only when it is strategically necessary, i.e when white women have abortions. White women should have less abortions. However in principle abortions are a necessary tool that we should be using more often. It is a great way of engaging in eugenics. Abort retards, downies, cripples, etc. Anyone with a genetic disorder, anyone who will be born sick and will require constant care, etc. It is actually humane to abort someone who will not even be able to enjoy life fully and will only suffer. Not aborting someone like that is blatantly cruel.

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>>133577627
powerful, anon

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>>133584726
This is a pretty solid post
for a frog

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>>133575295
It gets in the way of making white children, which gives really no purpose for living to the mother, as the average person can not handle math there are really low possibilities that the women in question could improve society, specially if she needs an abortion I wouldn't say she is brilliant, robot (for now) can do most of human's jobs, cheaper, faster, and better, so if women do not procreate and feed their children, what else can they do, as technology advances, more and more jobs will be automated, then what? Even if women get their careers done, most of them are really useless careers* even a well trained chimp could do their share. So my main arguments could be summarized as:
1.-Most women have no purpose of existence if they can not procreate.
2.-Even if they tried to find a purpose, it would be a waste of time based on false illusions about useless careers.

If, the main argument pro abortion is that fetuses are not persons, what will happen to the other laws regarding non-human beings? How could the law define what is "alive" and what is not, if we have a really hard time defining it with viruses. Also if a pregnant mother in her early first trimester gets murder, will the law stop charging for double homicide, even if the mother wanted the baby. If the fetus is considered an asset, could the fetus be sold and bough. You have to understand the debate about abortion is not whether or not is bad, is about what implications come after making it legal.

My opinion is against, because I find it hard to accept something that doesn't secure family values and promotes degeneracy with a useless life based of pleasure without responsibilities, but I'm aware that under special circumstances, a clear minority of cases.
e.g.) Were there is no other option to save the mother or rape victims that get impregnated, then abortion can be necessary.

*http://www.esa.doc.gov/sites/default/files/womeninstemagaptoinnovation8311.pdf

>>133575295
White birth rates are falling and I don't want my children to be a minority.

That may not be compelling to you, but it's compelling to me.

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>>133579745
this is some quality bread. lots of good posts

>>133575295
This woman knows about Christianity. She is homeless and lives by her truth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1u6HpNxRWy8

>>133582923
It is also heavily pushed onto white women. It is lowering white birthrate while enabling white women to transform into roasties. I don't believe the ends justify the means here since it isn't getting rid of the niggers at all

>>133575295
It is cheaper to use a comdom stupid fucking whore.
If you are too stupid to use a condom you should be sterilised.

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>>133583356
just chillin' in cedar rapids

>>133575645
Your first reply is moving goalposts.
>saged immediately

>>133583836
i used to laugh at pastor anderson a few years ago when i was an edgy cringelord. kind of unbelievable how much people can change.

>>133585482
who makes these decisions? the same doctors who have been mutilating mentally ill peoples penises since the 1940s for money? the same medical profession who told us that fat-free diets were good for us and who designed the food pyramid with fucking carbs at the bottom because some lobbyists paid them? beethovens mother was retarded and her father was an alcoholic and he was born deaf. even black lives matter, (but we shouldnt be forced to live with them if we dont want to, i personally believe we are separate species). downies and cripples add to the rich tapestry of the human form, even if we are uncomfortable looking at them. i think those little potato girls with bulging eyes are kind of sweethearts in their own way, i find them very cute, and even the most pants-shitting spastics produce pieces of art that "normal" people will never be capable of. ALL LIVES MATTER, fuck all cunts who say different. you dont get to judge the value of a life just because it is less capable than you. hurrrrr they drag down the state and increase welfare hurrrr - what fucking good is the state unless it exists to provide us with life? what else is its function? what is the function of life? do you decide this? that because a person cant walk that they arent a life? there is more to this than balancing the goddamn budget.

>>133577901
People like you deserve death and only after their whole families are killed in front of you.

And only thing I have to do is to kick you so hard you lose your consciousnes and I do with you whatever I want.

>>133578053
t. Futuree high school massacre killer

>>133575295
Not conservative, but against abortion. Mostly, the irresponsible having sex that occurs without any contraceptives.
>but rapes tho and retards
That is a small number of abortions that occur. For whatever reason, society wants to shirk away any kind of responsibility for the sake of convenience.
Abortions also should not be paid by taxes. Condoms are literally given away. There should be no excuse for that.
The only circumstances I can accept abortion as a valid solution is for:
>Rape.
Not the "shit I was drunk and so was he, but I did not consent" kind (though, that is difficult to prove)
>Immediate danger to the life of the mother
This one is rare. Not very common, but I understand it.

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>>133575737
(0_0)

>>133589133
>not jizzing on the face of your rape victim
>not cumming up their ass and telling them youre HIV positive as you zip up your jeans

>>133575295

>Medical authorities are in consensus that fetuses do not feel pain prior to 27 weeks, and are otherwise incapable of suffering in any manner until the third trimester

That's not even close to correct. It's total bullshit. Are you just making this shit up?

Can't they just have the kid and put it up for adoption? Or is that much harder than I think

>>133575295
>Dear conservacucks, I would challenge any of you to present a compelling arguement against abortion not reliant upon christianity. Medical authorities are in consensus that fetuses do not feel pain prior to 27 weeks, and are otherwise incapable of suffering in any manner until the third trimester. Additionally, current evidence seems to suggest that babies are not self aware until after birth. Fetuses are incapable of suffering or self awareness, and thus need not be regarded as persons.

There is pain, but I'll bite for arguments sake, and lets say there is no pain or little pain most of the time for the baby.

Weather or not there is pain is not an argument for the justification of a murder.

Would it be more justified if I took your grandma and clipped off all her fingers before bashing her skull in with a dildo than if I just waited until she fell asleep, and shot her in the head?

>>133579852
>not understanding difference between corelation and causation. Also, by your logic, or should I say the lack of it, having exactly 2 eyes, hands and legs is cause of death while driving, idiot.

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>>133575295
>AHUHUH THE THING IM KILLING DOESNT FEEL PAIN WHEN I KILL IT THOUGH! HUEHUE CHECKMATE ATHEISTS

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I agree you should have been aborted.

>>133590184
Libs using the "b-but there's no pain" meme is so laughable.
There's no pain in shooting a man in the back of the head.
But it's still murder innit.

>>133575295
I'm not Christian. I am in favor of eugenics but not abortion. I think that killing a developing fetus is a devaluation of life far beyond using contraceptives or getting sterilized. I'm all about rationality, but rational people are aware of people's emotional nature. If you know anything about psychology you should probably be aware of the bond between a mother and child before the birth even comes. The father too, to a lesser extent. Unless you're an autistic NEET the thought of a pregnant woman getting kicked in the belly will probably make you feel a little sick, angry, or generally uncomfortable. Humans have instinct just like animals, and rationalizing that it's "a bundle of cells" isn't enough to overcome the millennia of evolution that have formed the human psyche.

Anyway, killing an unborn child has a similar psychological and spiritual impact to killing a baby, it's just less severe. Imagine if infanticide was an accepted practice. Beyond the personal effects you also have the fact that pregnancies are easily prevented. The impact on a culture are far less certain but I'd wager it's negative.

The only good arguments for unqualified abortion (so not just cases of rape/incest) tend to be making sure irresponsible people don't raise kids (nurture) or filtering more poor/irresponsible people out of the population through indirect population control (nature). Both are social engineering which might turn some people off immediately

>>133575466
This. Rape or not, just take a damn pill and you're fine

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>>133575295
1. It is possible unborn children have a fraction of the value of human life, e.g. they hold the property of potential life.
2. The value of human life is infinite.
3. Any fraction of infinity is infinity.
4. Therefore, it is possible unborn children have infinite value.
5. As long as this possibility exists, abortion is possibly murder.
6. Committing possible murder is immoral.
7. Therefore, abortion is immoral.

This argument is irrefutable. Your best bet is to contest premise 1, e.g. that unborn children do not hold the property of potential life, possibly by reduction to absurdity, and showing that it is NOT POSSIBLE that they have a fraction of the value of human life, which impossible.

You stand refuted.

>>133575295
>be liberal
>ideology based on ignoring facts and emotional appeal
>every policy is formed around "muh rights" and "muh morals" and "muh unfair"
Wow how am I ever going to make a case for abort---
Rights of the unborn
Killing is immoral
Fetus is alive, and can't defend itself, you're literally oppressing the last form of human life that can't advocate for its own rights.

Aaaaannnnnd /thread.

>>133575295
Abortion increased births out of wedlock and reduced marriage rates contrary to the theory that it would improve them - which resulted in an increase in crime in all ethnic communities of America.

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>>133575295
I thoroughly encourage you to have as many abortions as possible.

>>133575295
Murder isn't wrong because of who the victim was before the murder. Murder is wrong because of who the victim would have been, had the murder never happened.

Same thing with abortion.

>>133575295
Because it allows women, who are easily manipulated by the jews, to genocide their race.

>>133575295
If the mother's head gets chopped off 8 months pregnant the baby can still be born just fine. If it wasn't 'alive' this would have to imply the mother never died.

>>133575295
I'm fine with abortion as long as you agree to sterilization along with an abortion. If you have such little disregard for human life that you need to destroy it, then your ability to produce human life should be taken away.

>>133595886
This can't be refuted, but they'd retort something about masturbating being just as bad, because they don't understand the difference between a haploid and a diploid.

>>133596978
I'd argue semen doesn't hold the property of potential life.

>>133596978
And fapping is bad.

>>133575295

Sure, argument from morality.

Let's assume t to be the earliest time that it's moral to kill a baby.

Then by definition that means that t-1 second is immoral while t is moral. There is biological change in the baby possible, that would happen in a span of a second that would make the abortion go from immoral to moral.

Therefore, t has to be outside of pregnancy:

Option 1) t is after pregnancy - that's immoral because it's murder.
Option 2) t = 0 (conception)

Q.E.D motherfucker

>>133597260
There is no biological change in the baby possible*

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>>133575295
Killing kids because of poor Life choices is wrong.
>T.human with morals.

>>133595886
The value of human life is not infinite just because you say so. The value of human life can be measured, admittedly not perfectly, by the value they create. This generally manifests itself as capital, social standing, reproductive success, etc.
The potential value human life can create may be infinite in positive potential, just as it is infinite in negative potential.
Therefore, the abortion of probable wrongdoers can be justified. Although I'd argue that the being needs to manifest its own potential outside the genetic ramifications given to it by its parents before we can deem its real value, your argument is far from irrefutable.
Also wouldn't the unborn child merely the extension of the seed? Doesn't every argument you've presented also deem busting in the sink immoral? Sperm also hold the property of potential life, the unborn child has just realized that potential to a larger degree.

And they don't suddenly gain self awareness the second they pop out of a vagina, does that make it okay to kill newborns? Can I kill you if I dope you up so you can notice or suffer?

Stop being retarded. Aborting niggers may be a public service but abortion is still the act of killing kids deemed inconvenient, and any sort of denial only exists to try and soothe the minds of the mothers being pressured into doing it by their family, peers, and the media.

>>133575941
Does people from the lower classes also name their sons Brian in Mexico?

>>133575295
>Since a unconscious person cannot suffer it can be killed.
How can conservacucks ever recover

>>133597384
Not an argument

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>>133597475
>The value of human life can be measured, admittedly not perfectly, by the value they create.
The value of human life is not only how it is arbitrarily measured just because you say so. You seem not to understand that the burden of proof is on you to show that it is not possible unborn children have a fraction of the value of human life. If you can't show that this is not possible, the conclusion follows and abortion is immoral. The argument can be modified as such, if you insist:

1. It is possible unborn children have a fraction of the value of human life.
2. As long as this possibility exists, abortion is possibly morally wrong.
3. Committing something possibly morally wrong is immoral.
4. Therefore, abortion is immoral.

In order to refute this argument, you have to show it is impossible that unborn children have a fraction of the value of human life, that killing something with only a fraction of the value of human life isn't possibly morally wrong, or that committing something possibly morally wrong is immoral. Good luck with that, faggot.

>>133597857
isn't* immoral

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>>133597804
Sorry. Killing children is wrong. Don't do it. You'll suffer depression from having life ripped out of you. Regardless if Jesus exists or not. Learn from your mistakes. There good enough? :/

>>133597384
This pretty much

>>133597475
Humans have infinite potential because of the ramification that choices have.

Also, sperm doesn't turn into a human baby if you leave it alone for almost a year, you literal autist.

>>133575295
it has nothing to do with pain, life, personhood or whatever stupid arguments you have.
What matters is that when you destroy something which is the positive interaction between two people, that is bad.
Abortion is such an action. It is bad.
End of story. You can try and justify it in certain cases but that doesn't make it good, it is still bad.

>>133597857
That only works on the assumption that the most immoral scum are worthless, 0, and that the most moral heroes are infinite. If we assume however, that people can create negative value, and they're worth less than 0, killing them would be the moral thing.

1. It is possible unborn children have a fraction of the negative value of human life.
2. As long as this possibility exists, abortion is possibly morally good.
3. Committing something possibly morally good is moral (although I don't think this is correct statement either way).
4. Therefore, abortion is moral.

Entertain the idea that the people who would even consider having an abortion is morally bankrupt, and that their children would very likely have a negative impact on society, wouldn't killing them be the moral thing?

>>133598400
3 is clearly wrong. Nice try, though.

>>133598400
Excuse my shitty grammar.

>>133598469
How so? Committing something potentially morally bad is bad, yet committing something potentially morally good is not good?
What is clearly wrong is not my attempt at twisting your words to its opposites, but the entire statement in itself.
Do explain otherwise.

>>133598621
Those are the same thing. A negative and a positive is a negative. If there were a chance that pressing a button would kill a random person, it would be morally wrong to press it. If you would contest "But, it could kill someone I've arbitrarily measured as not having value," then you would be grasping at straws.

>>133598152
You're not even arguing with me.
>Humans have infinite potential because of the ramification that choices have.
I never implied otherwise. I just said that the potential is not a good in and of itself, and that it can be both good and bad.

>Also, sperm doesn't turn into a human baby if you leave it alone for almost a year, you literal autist.
Yet not a single of the points I was arguing against held that as staple, all he did was prove that something of infinite potential also has infinite value, just like sperm. Not my fault you're too stupid to grasp my very basic argument.

>>133598810
Fair enough, although the measurements are not completely arbitrary. Still, I've only used the same measurements that you initially employed, and now you're assuming that killing is a wrong in itself, regardless of potential. If killing someone producing negative value is a good, and killing someone producing positive value is bad, then we have to judge by average . Assuming that there exists such a thing as value, then killing a random person within a group of majority negative people would be a good, and vice versa. The measurements can be argued, but as along as we agree on the idea that value is real, and that murdering people who produce negative value is moral, then the morality of pressing a button that kills someone randomly can be measured aswell.

>>133599561
Let's say there were a chance of killing someone with positive value or negative value. You're still assuming 1) the value of a person is only what they do and that there is no inherent value (inherent value you have to disprove completely in order to justify abortion), and 2) that the chance is 50/50 (which isn't necessarily true).