Convince me on why I should be a Marxist?

>>133516284
more money and a more liquid economy
/thread

>>133516284
easy lefty poon

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>>133516453
so much you can swim in it!

>>133516453
more money? how, I want a well thought out argument not just buzz words. I would argue that Marx published his work at the peak of a worker driven industry. With technology today most labour is as cheap as ever because you can have one tractor do the job of 100 stupid collective farm hippies, or you can have a machine literally replace the cashier at mcdonalds. Marx grossly over valued labour which is just like any other commodity on the market

>>133517079
when technology works for us, unless you want to genocide 95% of the planet, you are going to need some form of marxism.

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>>133517252
more like if you want to genocide 95% of the planet, you need some form of marxism

>>133516284
>angry at parents
>homosexual
>weak willed
>jewish
>hatred of whites
These are the only good reasons.

>>133516284
Nobody should get to be better than you, its not fair.

Marxist capitalist master race incoming

>>133517252
Most of the planet needs culled off anyway. I can't fathom why a marxist thinks they are entitled to food, shelter and all that stuff just for existing and not contributing anything back.

>>133517345
You will always be poor if you don't think long enough so that your opinion is valid and valuable.

Get in the habit.

>>133517345
kek, SUBTLE

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>>133517572
only honest answer

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>>133517650
>you will always be poor unless your opinion conforms to my jewish overlords

>getinthehabit.redditspacing.jpg

>>133516284
Because you can understand one's conditions of existence properly with Marxism.

>>133517572
nobody is better than me, just because they have more money doesn't make them better lol Marxists sound like they never made it past junior high caring that much about social status

>>133516453
This anon is right. It's easier to steal from the proles when they feel like capital is stinky.

>>133518262
and what are those? expand on this you're not doing a very good job of making me want to be a marxist

>>133517616
Then how the fuck are you justifying the unbelievable fortunes the 1% enjoy without ever contributing anything?

The next coming years will be delightful if you are a Marxist, so think about it.

>>133518107
Listen dumb fuck, when automation is good enough, you're/95% of people are going to be worthless. Though, we will also be filled with abundance. If you can't connect the dots, then you're retarded. You must be trying to troll me equating automation problems to USSR problems.

>>133518451
Hey dingbat, you're trapped by the 1% slave religion. You're helping transfer wealth away from the 99%. How do you justify this?

>>133518471
Humanity can't sustain itself without work. Your utopic vision would result in billions dead.

>>133517252
>when technology works for us

You don't know shit about technology.

>>133517079
Actually this is his arguement as to why it is labor specifically that has value.

Without sufficient people employed to purchase goods, regardless of how many are made they are worthless. Its a contradiction, as capitalism seeks to reduce the work costs as much as possible.

Thus eventually they will price themselves out of an economy.

>>133518641
Please explain

>>133518451
>without ever contributing anything?
>wealth is not created
>it is only ever seized

Everyday you make crystal clear that you have never worked in your entire life. Just like Marx.

>>133518451
>without ever contributing anything?
Where are the proofs?
>>133518471
>/95% of people are going to be worthless
>dialectical materialism
Into the trash.

>>133518451
The amount of dollars someone has wont change anything, if the 1% gave all their money away it wouldnt matter money would become worthless do you not understand what inflation is. The 1% doesn't prevent me from doing anything because I am not a loser who is stopped by imaginary barriers.

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>>133518760
>please explain the value of work
>anarchist
"what did he mean by this"

>>133516284
If you're a faggot with no economic sense or knowledge of history, it might be for you

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>>133518352
I've put on the flag for clarity.

Marxism lays out how your conditions of existence are influenced by your relations to the means of production. Everything you do, want or not want is in the end a result of the mode of production we are in. History is a history of class struggle, which is dialectic materialism. Capitalism is the natural development from feudalism, the bourgeoisie overthrow their feudal lords through violent revolutions, capitalism isn't voluntary, it was violently enforced through the enclosure of commons, and with it formed the nation state. People want to act in the interest of their class, the bourgeoisie, the private owners and shareholders of the means of production, have an interest of pushing down wages, keeping up unemployment and increasing the work hours. More or less, subtracting some of the elements of the welfare state, the liberal nation state is an instrument for the bourgeoisie to oppress the proletariat, which means the producing people (that includes workers but also managers, everybody who creates value), because private ownership on the means of production is constitutionally guaranteed. A socialist revolution would be resulting in the dictatorship of the proletariat, in which the proletariat oppress the capitalist class - this will result in socialism where no more surplus value is extracted and the working people control the means of production.

>>133518451
Even when the 1% holds their money in bank accounts or money market funds, that money is loaned out and invested in order to create homes, technology, infrastructure. Money is never hoarded.

>>133518760
Why would everyone all of a sudden hold hands and agree that everything is fine? Everything we do is based on limited resources. As soon as we have seemingly unlimited resources and people don't have to work they're just going to breed like rabbits until our scarcity problem returns. See: welfare recipients.

>>133519118
Of course it matters, not all the money gets reinvested into the economy but rather rots on bank accounts. That's why national banks are printing money.

>>133518641
>Your utopic vision
Automation has the potential to replace every job.
It's literally coming. It's not some far-off view.
So what you advocate is genocide instead of a form of marxist injection. Fuck 95% of the people who helped create the system of our people for the past thousands of years, because they are GULLIBLE for falling for being worth less than me. Is this your thinking?

>>133519326
>History is a history of class struggle
False. Suck it commie faggot.

>>133519521
Nothing rots in a bank account, that money is loaned out. Why can't commies understand this?

>>133519400
It's a fucking arbitrary and inefficient allocation system though. There are a lot of things wrong with the accumulation and reinvestment circle, it constantly fails and leads to boom and busts all the time, not even to mention the falling rate of profit.

>>133519539
I do agree about automation what the fuck kind of government will we have when that shit starts

>>133519539
>It's literally coming
This is Whig History. Whig History is debunked foolishness.

>>133519539
No it's not my thinking. I just believe automation will create more work not less. Working is our natural state no matter what ideology we want to see it through.

>>133519725
And what is good about that? Making profit out of rents and usury is literally the definition of parasitic behavior. Why would you want a economy based on that?

>>133519738
>inefficient allocation system

A FUCKING COMMIE

>>133519684
>history is a story of great men and ideas
Pure liberal idealism

>>133519738
In what way is it arbitrary/inefficient? The banks loan to projects that will give them the highest return, aka the most valued projects by society.

And books and busts are caused by misallocation into the wrong sectors of the economy, caused when interest rates by the central bank are incorrect

>>133519877
I feel like it will create more production, but not more work

>>133519992
>banks
>best interest of society
Dude...

>hurrdurr national banks
That's a gross oversimplification of a debt crisis

>>133519992
I can't help but feel you oversimplified the entire subject of economy

>>133516284
>Convince me on why I should be a Marxist?
You're a kid and a moron, so you'd fit right in.

>>133519521
printing more money doesnt make people richer.
Lets say I have 1 dollar worth of commodities on the market and a single dollar bill back by the value of those commodities. When you print another bill its says a dollar on the front but only has the value of 50 cents because your money supply doubled. This is what you fucking idiots dont understand about 15 dollar minimum wage it doesnt actually make anyone richer. The problem with money is its backed with debt which is a liquid asset that changes value it is no longer back by gold or something that has real value

>>133519896
The interest rate tells you how much loanable funds are available in the economy. If the interest rate is very high, that encourages saving because there are only enough loanable funds available for high yield projects

Plus interest protects from risk

>>133520166
Banks and Wall Street are essential to lifting people out of poverty and building civilization. Their purpose is to take unused funds and allocate them into productive sectors of the economy. They are the reason hording does not exist. It's not because they are "good guys"

Learn economics

>>133520417
Nice, you got him there man.

>>133518451
The top 5 richest men in the world (who own more than half the wealth of the world) are tech/buisiness leaders, without that capital, the market/ development would stagnate. Now I agree that's too much power for 5 dickheads, but a giant endlessly corrupt gov't isn't the answer. New blockchain tech is said to break up some of the monopolies.

How can you justify a giant all seing all knowing one ring of sauron government takeover of all things when in my home state of NY the MTA with it's endlessly corrupt union mafia, we can't get cars that are't decades old, that break down, and derail constantly. All with millions and billions at their disposal. What makes you think this stalin will be better then the last? You really think joe blow and jesus christ will be running this new communist utopia?

>>133520424
Yes I know that. I don't plan on printing more money. My intent is to abolish production for exchange alltogether. Only when we overcome commodity fetishism we aren't slaves to the reproduction of capital anymore. Maybe, if you have the time, this book is a good entry pill:

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/perlman-fredy/1969/misc/reproduction-daily-life.htm

>>133516284
I think that kid is playing the Chip & Dale Rescue Rangers NES game, but not sure.

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>>133517572
>one day, one shiny day, I'll be up there too!!
>one shiny day

>>133520417
I wanted to hear the marxists best reasons to try and convert me, you're a kid and a moron

>>133520494
You speak as though these people didn't knowingly fuck people over or some knowingly take us to the housing market crash

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>>133516284
You can enjoy social chit chat in the bread lines?

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>>133519986
>>133519684
>History is the tale of the victorious
No more no less
Your ideologies blind you

>>133520743
I think it's mario 2 or 3 on the tv w/ chip & dale poster on the wall

>>133520741
so its production for what? I make something and you get it "just because". Just because I was unfortunate enough to be born on the same hunk of dirt as you doesn't entitle you to anything, why would I want to support a system to support everybody else when I am an antisocial and couldn't give a fuck less about 99% of the population

>>133520936
no it is chip and dale, its an add for capcom every game in the add is from capcom

>>133520891
Antisocial, I dont care how drunk that little whore got last night at the club, she is only talking that loud because she wants the attention and thinks she is cool.

>>133520494
>Banks and Wall Street are essential to lifting people out of poverty and building civilization
We are not denying this. The reinvestment cycle as the main operating system of progress of civilization is the greatest result of capitalism. However, capitalism eventually reaches a dead end due to it's internal contradictions - additionally, due to global imperialism the reinvestment cycle doesn't actually lift people out of poverty anymore, because there is no primitive of accumulation of the national bourgeoisie in Third World countries, but net extraction because of imperialist powers. In Africa for example, 100 billion dollar more than which was invested are leaving the continent every year. Here the reinvestment cycle ultimately fails.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/08/exposing-great-poverty-reductio-201481211590729809.html

>>133521379
Always archive those https://archive.is/rkAZQ

>>133521186
hmm, good eye, I only had like 10 nes games growing up, since they were expensive and my local video store only had a few. which is funny considering how much of them were based off stuff i loved. (darkwing duck, ducktales, chip& dale) now i'm brushing up at garage sale finds since their pennies on the dollar.

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>>133520930
>here is a platitude
You literally just said something like "carpe diem" or "love your life"

>>133520888
They did. But they wouldn't have if Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac didn't guarantee Mortgages.

The bad loans were created mostly by small mortgage lenders who knew Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac would buy them from them no matter how shitty they were.

Fannoe and Freddie then packaged these into Mortgage Backed securities which were sold off to Big banks, small banks, pension funds, etc.

Plus, a lot of mortgages were incentivized by historic low interest rates after the dot com bubble burst, set by Alan Greenspan.

The big banks unloaded their bad bonds once they knew what was in them and their customers never bought from them again because they knew they couldn't trust them.

The banks were bad because they did some shady shit to save their own skin once the defaults spread to them. Some survived like Goldman and JP Morgan, but the root cause of he crisis started at small lenders and government guaranteed mortgages.

>>133516284
Mass genociding billions of people would be good for the environment.

>>133521111
Production for use. In capitalism, you are alienated from what you produce. You personally have no use for it and you labor power is measured in time, therefore you force yourself to produce as much stuff as possible, just for exchange, not for use. In socialism, production is organized democratically based on usage and necessity.

>>133518471
>repeating arguments of industrial revolution opponents
why are marxists so stupid?

>>133516284
Do you want to be an edgy teenage Marxist or a real one

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>>133521740
kek if it wasn't so true

>>133521648
government intervention fucks everything up once again.

>>133519738
investments funds are inefficient allocation? what would you do with the 1%'s wealth otherwise?

give it the poor and prevent any economical growth from lack of investments?

or would you seize them and still keep them as investment money, so not changing anything at all, just adding general inefficiency of planned economy?

stop being a fag

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Also, dropping a basic judeo-bolshevist reading list for anybody who wants to widen his horizon.

Special recommendation is also "Towards a New Socialism" by Cockshott who flawlessly presents a system of economic planning and Mark Fishers "Capitalist Realism" which is more a juicy cultural read.

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>>133521534
tell me more about these conquered societies that are defining the historical narratives the public accepts as true.

>>133521836
democracy is for retards though. 2 wolves and a sheep vote on whats for dinner, fair system dude.

>>133522005
I actually want to argue against marxism better so i wanted to hear the best points of marxism to debate against but so far I have come up empty handed

>>133522320
everyone of those books is debating a strawman

>>133522495
Such is marxism, it is the "logical" scholarly side of being a mad luciferian death cult member.

>>133521379
>That article
How does proportionality not make sense when measuring poverty? Of course the nominal amount of people in poverty will increase if populations are exploding.

And of course investments fail in Africa. They have no rule of law. To have a healthy, wealthy nation you need the rule of law. For civilizational reasons, they don't. Africa will never be prospourous until they have this

Please let us know about capitalisms "contradictions." Marxists don't even understand economic calculation

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>>133522386
Our suggestion of democracy isn't like your typical liberal bourgeois democracy though. It's more about reciprocal participation than just throwing a ballot in a bin and then people far away decide something.

Proletarian democracy the way it worked in the USSR included for example that only workers councils, trade unions, cooperatives and other organizations could nominate the candidates for the Soviets.

>>133522919
>muh economic calculation problem
You really think I've never heard this stupid Mises meme before? It has been debunked before:

http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/calculation_debate.pdf

For the contradictions of capitalism, just read Marx. It's too much to describe in a 4chan post. I've already named the falling rate of profit.

>>133523003
blah blah my Stalinist, communist dictatorship will work better this time because iI'm an omnipotent infallible benevolent genius of some kind, you'll see.

>>133522759
Excuse me what? Are you telling me "real capitalism has never been tried"?

>>133523402
isn't that what all the people in Venezuela thought when they had their "peoples revolution" why do these american college kids think they are any different from College kids in south america and will magically turn out better for them.

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shitty communist rhetoric can't compete with fashy memes

>>133523402
That's literally what classical liberals believe when they say we should leave everything to some corporate cockbags. As I said, in a proletarian democracy capitalists gets oppressed.

Also why do you claim the USSR under Stalin didn't work? They went from feudal backwater to a spacefaring superpower within 30 years with one of the highest standards of living worldwide in the 50s.

>>133523542
It has and it worked fine up until the 1900s when that anarchist retard shot mckinnley.

>>133523003
You think I want a union rep to represent me? I put my interests before the interests of anyone else and he does the same thing. You really think you have some christ like super humans in your utopia.

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>>133523820
>what about the memes? what about the memes?
Alt-right in 2017 is a joke

>>133523874
when you kill off all the poor hungry and homeless people at gulags it doesn't count.

>>133523934
So you'd rather have a corporate shareholder to represent your interests than a trade union filled with people having similar interests and needs than you?

Also, 19th century capitalism caused great progress, but also great poverty. If you don't have child labor it isn't real capitalism?

>>133524098
You really think that happened do you? Then explain to me how the population grew all the time throughout Stalin and Mao (except for the war of course). I'm not saying nobody died, but the scale is massively exaggerated

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>>133523998
hows that normalized fascism taste, commie?

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>>133523874
So you just admitted you wouldn't mind gulaging and starving millions of people to death. You sound like an evil madman just so you know. this is why the commies must die.

>>133524219
19th century capitalism didn't cause any poverty. Child labor was eliminated when families were wealthy enough where they didn't need to make there children work.

Working conditions before the industrial revolution were often crueler than during the 19th century. Real wages rose during that period and workers were able to work less

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>>133524380
>r/thedonald tier memes

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>>133524552

>>133524504
Also the state started to implement insurances and welfare programs, and outsourced crappy labor into the colonies. The highest stage of capitalism is not extracting resources from colonies, but exporting producing forces into the colonies.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/

>>133524219
How do corporate shareholders represent me at all? I represent myself and if I want that corporation to fail I don't give them my money, if enough other people feel the same way it fails. The problem is you have the government bailing out failures instead of letting the market do its job. Capitalism involves boom and bust periods of which the bust is still better than any socialist country at its best, I will take a few years of living on a thread for years of plenty instead of perpetually living on a thread my entire life, I know the thread will always be there but I also no I wont be living on anything more than a thread. Socialism is for those losers that are happy just existing it breeds low standards.

Please tell me about some communist inventions though? I am curious as to what kind of real creativity they had in the soviet union.

>>133524375
How did the population of jews increase in germany from before and after the war?

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>>133524436
>muh gorillions
Cry more. Capitalism killed and kills a hundred times more people than communism every will.

>>133523354
The falling rate of profit is based on the erroneus labor theory of value.

Marginal Utility explains away the illogical falling rate of profit argument from Marx

>>133516284
i cant

>>133525023
your next yuri

>>133516284
You should absolutely not be a Marxist, because Marx was a faggot cocksucker who lived his entire life on his sugar daddy's money.

>>133519326
>History is a history of class struggle
This gets me all the time.
Do socialists at least see that marxist histography is a weak point in their ideology?

>>133525288
like a century of failure isn't enough lets try two centuries.

>>133516284
>libertarian
You can be more a degenerate than you already are without have to waste your life away working.

>>133523713
white liberals are secretly racist, calling them out on it is one of the most potent attacks... it's the equivalent of naming the jew

>>133525023
capitalism didn't kill anyone, you don't kill people with voluntary association. I think you're getting confused again commie, remind me again how 19 century isolationist capitalist paradise america is the same as 21 century interventionist cultural marxist shithole america.

>>133517572
We are all equal.

>>133524849
Corporate shareholders represent you because after all they decide your wage, your working conditions or wether or not your job will be outsourced to India. Also, fuck bailouts, but that's just when the financial "industry" becomes powerful enough to actually influence policy, but how you are going to prevent that? Another form of government regulations?

>Please tell me about some communist inventions though? I am curious as to what kind of real creativity they had in the soviet union
The Soviets pioneered humanity into space. They also had great computer developments:

https://youtu.be/YrL_1QOvTss

Also, most inventions under capitalism are done in state labs.

>>133525377
This is not my point and blindness for history might be the explaination for repeating failure.
If you are viewing history only through a dogma that was created by your ideology, your ideology never fails.

>>133525625
Nobody is equal. People are more attractive, stronger, braver, more creative, more artistic, smarter, etc

>>133525232
I know that, I wanted to hear from marxists why I should be so i would be prepared to destroy them in a debate in person

>>133525074
Marginal theory of value describes something different than the labor theory of value. False dichotomy. Also, it's not really related to the falling rate of profit. The crux is that innovation and invention will never be fast enough to catch up with the need to make more profit, and you can only exploit the workers a certain amount before they rebel.

>>133525483
I'm a first generation american, and every current lefty I knew growing up never gave a shit about "oppressed minorites" and made fun of them, and put them down every chance they got. now that they are part of ((("society"))) they call me a bigot in (((good company))) that's right a bunch of white kids calling the mixed kid a racist, pretty much sums up leftism for me.

>>133525764
this, you're an idiot/communist if you think a cripple has the same value on the market as the lumberjack with a strongback. You have to play with the cards you were dealt.

>>133525483
I know haha that is what I was getting at, American marxists seem to think they are smarter than everybody else because they are racist as fuck.

>>133525023
And it also helped billions. Who did communism help? Not the soviet satellites, they switched to capitalism at the first available opportunity.
>inb4 muh china
They are communist in the same way that North Korea is democratic.

>>133525678
what is my "dogma" and how has it changed history?

>>133525591
"Voluntary association" is a fucking meme, because it completely ignores the presupposing conditions under which voluntary exchange takes place. When British capitalists caused the potato famine in Ireland, did the Irish just voluntarily associated themselves wrong?

>>133525678
Historical Materialism is descriptive, not prescriptive, Julian.

>>133525638
They dont decide my wage lol, the m,arket decides my wages. If everyone wants to do the same thing there is an over supply or labor more than there is demand for that labour so the labour is cheaper. Having some idiot in the state capital decide what is a fair wage is just stupid man

>>133526248
>British capitalists caused the potato famine.
Top fucking kek dude.

Sounds involuntary to me and therefore not capitalism. I can play the "but it wasn't real X" game too

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>>133526248
Dude you're a fucking meme and so is everything you say. You have no ground to stand on so you fall over constantly and play it off like nothing happened.

>>133516496
This

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>>133526209
>they switched
lol, it was dismantled by those in power. People voted to keep the USSR and modern Russians also prefer the USSR in all polls.

And the USSR was revisionist since 1956, it was still better than the hellhole that is capitalist Russia in the 90s.

>>133525901
Clearly you and all commies need to learn about market structures. There is no need to make "profit." Profit is the opportunity created by creating value for society. Despite what morons say, capitalism doesn't require growth. Growth is the result of capitalism. We should want growth to improve people's lives. If profit is possible in a market, firms will enter until profits in that market will fall. Firms choose to innovate in order to get profits in a new market. Even firms with Monopoly power create the socially optimal amount of goods through price discrimination

>>133526677
I never played the "wasn't true socialism" game. I'm not a Leftcom, I'm a Marxist-Leninist.

>>133527210
>i'm not a maoist i'm a market socialist
>I'm an asshole not a cocksalad

>>133527170
>capitalism doesn't require growth
Is that why we have neoliberals all over the globe enforce austerity measures to artificially attract investors?

>>133527409
>has a literal LARPer flag
>makes fun of someone's ideology

>>133526412
Where did I say I want a guy in a state capital decide your wage? Don't strawman me dude, I really tried to explain what socialism is.

>>133526385
Reducing all of history to it is nonsense.
Also class struggle as in uprising of the lower classes is in the most cases only a pathway for the powers of money or a tyrant against the traditional order of society (e.g. Caesar, Ti. Gracchus).
A generalized form as in "History is the history of violence/power" would be true, but that doesn't fit the narrative, so well...

>>133526233
The dogma I am talking about is "History is a history of class struggle"

>>133517038
i loved the one billion billpengő(billion*trillion), it was much better than toilet paper, much more softer

>>133527445
Austerity measures are good because when the government is over leveraged it crowds out investment in the private sector.

Governments do austerity so they stop distorting the market and free up capitalto go into productive causes. Growth does result because of austerity. How is this bad? It's not required by the "system," we just want growth to make people's lives better

>>133519326
>Marxism lays out how your conditions of existence are influenced by your relations to the means of production.
and he was completly wrong. He was a dirty bum, literally the definition of his bourgeoisie.

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>>133527831
No, you clearly never read anything about this. Historical Materialism says that relations to one's relation to production determines long-term historical drives, from slaveholder society to feudalism, from feudalism to capitalism. It's also not reducing history to that, material base and superstructure have a reciprocal relationship. Why do you think religion was so strong in the middle ages? May that have something to do with justifying the material base? Present a comprehensive alternative or fuck off.

You realize that "history is violence" or "history is power" is not actually saying anything right?

>>133527567
who's larping? I spread the word of the evils of the Saracen hoards daily. I take it you're an atheist and have got that all figure out too, just like how you " just know because reasons" how everybody should think and act because you were taught it in college, and it sounds good enough to try out. Plus it gets me feminist/wiccan pussy.

>>133519326
>capitalism isn't voluntary
without money and reward what is there? Commies are so retarded theyre command economies are based off capitalist neighbors. Capitalism was the first and only lasting economic system. you do something, you get paid. Its the only logical system.

>>133528181
Austerity measures have decreased the average life quality in a lot of western countries.

>>133519521
>not all the money gets reinvested into the economy but rather rots on bank accounts.
this is like listening to a middle schooler explain the economy

>>133528674
>capitalism is when you are getting rewards for your labor
>capitalism has always existed
Jesus fucking Christ... have you actually read the rest of my sentence?

>>133528521
>I'm not LARPing
>perceives the world as humans vs. orcs
>talks like a medieval harbinger

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>36 posts by this ID

>>133528822
>advocating for fascist corporatism in service of muh nation is the pinnacle of economic thought
Grow up kid

>>133528741
Short term they cause pain, but malinvestments must be liquidated in order for the economy to return to producing productive goods and services.

Not implementing austerity measure sacrifices future output and will undoubtedly cause crisises like in Greece

>>133516284
Evertyhing is free.

>>133516284
Cant
All that cool stuff in your pic doesnt exist in marxism including freedom
Why do you think people from ex-comblocks hate communism?
Its not just because they want western products

>>133529210
What Greece needs is a massive investment program similar to the Marshal Plan in Germany after the war. Them selling their last pieces of state property to German and Chinese firms won't do anything.

Read Steve Keen "Debunking Economics"

The shills here pushing communism are pure snake oil salesman. Pushing this postmodernist philosophy that is itself little more than a deconstruction of reality and aesthetics that has no true meaning, all in the name of "knowledge of science and power". It's a power grab pure and simple. It's a con so that smart, true, people who have achieved great things can be leeched progress away from them, to the parasitic power starved elite/wannabes.

>>133528919
>have you actually read the rest of my sentence?
youre a commie, nothing you say made sense and I dont really care. Communism is a retarded ideology written by a man who did nothing with his life, never washed, never worked, made 3x as much as an average worker yet still remained poor as shit. The dumb mother fucker wouldnt even go to Engles factory to have a first hand experience of the workers. He was a begger, a bum, and an idiot. Anyone stupid enough to believe him isnt worth listening to. If you can answer my question Ill go back and read: without a system with money where you get paid for service what is there? What are needs if you have no markets to gauge? If the govt only provides needs anyways does that mean theres 0 pleasure or luxury? If so then idec if you have an alternative becas its shit and much worse than capitalism.

>>133528477
>No, you clearly never read anything about this.
True.

>It's also not reducing history to that, material base and superstructure have a reciprocal relationship.
Class struggle goes in both directions, so seeing all of history through this aspect is somehow not narrowing your view?

>Middle Ages
Before Liberalism believing in truth outside nature was common actually.
And of course those governing these truths are powerful.

>Present a comprehensive alternative or fuck off.
Rude.

>You realize that "history is violence" or "history is power" is not actually saying anything right?
Of course it is not saying anything, history is everything that ever happened.
The statement history is the history of x makes no sense in general. You are defining a set (mathematically speaking) by a subset, this makes no sense. I just choose a bigger subset (violence) that also includes your subset (class struggle).

>>133516284
Free gibs to you!

>>133529079
I know leftists have no sense of humor but Jesus.

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>>133529758
>marxism is post-modern
FUCKING WEW LAD

>>133529763
According to that definition nobody who works in academia has a "real job".

>communism is big gobernment
Literally dumb and proud.

Even Mussolini would turn in his grave reading your nonsene

>>133529607
No what they need is an exit from the Euro. They can't do fiscal policy if they don't have monetary policy to match.

Also read this if you want to learn something since you seem like you have a lot of time to read and debate Marxism: www.clementnedoncelle.eu/wp-content/uploads/KOM_IE9.pdf

>>133529482
and no one makes anything.
because #fuckfood

>>133517572
Some people are already born better
Its the true losers that cry about how everyone should be equal instead of making something of themselves
also the people crying for equality arent the ones who would actually fight for it, and would probably oppress you for sjw reasons

>>133516453
yes, more money. But they aren't worth anything.

>>133530140
the way communism is being justified today is a with a pure postmodernist backbone philosophy.

why should we let out all the nigs and spic from jail and lock up all the white for thought crime?

because reality is infinitely subjective man, black were oppressed with slavery so they didn't kill anybody their white slave owners did. That's a postmodernist con.

>>133529936
>Class struggle goes in both directions
No shit? What is your point?

>Before Liberalism believing in truth outside nature was common actually. And of course those governing these truths are powerful.
Correct, this is literally what dialectical materialism deducts from this. To have a feudal lord ruling over you need some ideological legitimization, and by giving them "divine right" you secure the the material relationship between noble and serf. The material basis comes first and then a development of an ideological superstructure follows. The fall of the Roman empire established feudal relations, because the Roman infrastructure went to shit, and soon concepts of the estates of the realm, divine right, knighthood, etc. were established. Just an example.

>>133529967
Hard to distinguish serious faggotery from satire on this board.

>>133530656
Those are liberals anon, not marxists.

>>133530140
I agree
most academics at this point are marxist infiltrators undermining the west and should be hanged in the streets

>>133516284
Marxism=/=communism

That's a start.

>>133530140
>According to that definition nobody who works in academia has a "real job".
where do you extrapolate such stupid ideas from? Their service/product is their knowledge. No wonder youre a commie you cant even use critical thinking or common sense.
communism strives for a stateless state which is a 1. a contridiction 1. impossible 3. retarded even if possible. You want communism go into the woods and die trying to survive.

>>133530911
Is that why a buddy of mine can't even work at the faculty because he is in a communist party? Some marxist undermining that is...

>>133530979
Obviously people were buying Marx stuff because they thought of it as important. FREE MARKET BUDDY

>>133530140
notice he cant answer the question becuase hes stupid

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"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies."

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>>133530979
Also,
>communists want a stateless state
I can't even

>>133530906
oh, I get it so the majority of leftists I talk to aren't "real Marxists" see where I take issue with you're movement? Fucking KEK.

>>133531108
Stop samefagging, everybody noticed you are butthurt by now

>>133531056
>Obviously people were buying Marx stuff because they thought of it as important.
becuase when he wrote it it was open to experiment, his theories were proven wrong thru both study and practice. Even the frankfurt school isnt marxist becas they know it cant ever work. If you still believe it can youre an idiot.

>>133516284
We need to get rid if religion and xtianity. /thread

>>133531176
>>communists want a stateless state
>I can't even
you literally dont know what communism is do you?

>>133531217
I don't know, is your average limp-wristed kekistan basement dweller with acne a proper representation for your ideology? Two can play at this game mate.

Liberals aren't even leftists man. Liberalism was literally founded on the idea of protection of private property.

>>133531258
>communism can't work
>that's why we need to do everything to stop it and put a gorillion sanctions on a tiny carribbean island

>>133531324
Open a fucking dictionary

>>133531371
>Liberalism was literally founded on the idea of protection of private property.
commies are so brutally stupid they think private property is a right wing idea. I'm sad there are humans this dumb.

>>133530699
>>Class struggle goes in both directions
>No shit? What is your point?
My point is, that this does not prove the statement "history is the history of class struggle".

>To have a feudal lord ruling over you need some ideological legitimization.
No you just need him to be a big guy with twelve friends to whom he gave pointy sticks and money.
Organised religion must not be seen only as binding towards the serf but also to the lord.
He gets legitimacy and gives part of his freedom of action. There are plenty conflitcs between church and nobility, just look at the northern Italian cities where the surrogates of pope and emperor fought over influence in late middle ages.

>>133531671
Liberalism wasn't right-wing in 1800 because it was opposed to feudalism.

It is right-wing now.

>>133516284
Free shit!

>>133531517
>>that's why we need to do everything to stop it and put a gorillion sanctions on a tiny carribbean island
thats to stop the human rights abuses, no shitty commie country has done anything since the USSR unless they adopt capitalism. Keep acting arrogant when you believe in a failed ideology that only "works" (by work i mean put in place then collapses) in low IQ poor country

>>133531572
ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money,[3][4] and the state.[5][6]

OpEn A FUcKiNg DiCTioNARy

>>133531798
>It is right-wing now.
youre cancer. Youre not a leftist youre an autist.

>>133531758
>No you just need him to be a big guy with twelve friends to whom he gave pointy sticks and money
He can't just oppress people with force all the time, he is reliant on his serfs to follow him into war. The way the medieval "state" worked was that it was a interconnecting relationship between people (as opposed to the relationships of legal status that we have today) due to swearing feality to each other.

>Organised religion must not be seen only as binding towards the serf but also to the lord.
Similarily, ideology works in capitalism. The CEO who works his ass off 12 hours a day an gets burn-out when he is 50 does it because some abstract protestant work ethic, not because of his on pleasure. Ironically, when these people put their interests in the service of the common good, it's the common good that suffers.

>There are plenty conflitcs between church and nobility
Obviously the ruling class is competing with each other, but when their system is threatened, they get together. An example is the alliance of all European states against the French revolution.

>>133531371
The problem is that they push the same agenda knowing what it really is or not. Some are too dumb to argue why their feelz should be law so they bring in their socialist friend. The socialist then proceeds to try an con me out of rational thought using a postmodernist "subjective truth" confidence scam. I laugh, spit in his face and call him a liar and move on. When this is a vast majority of you're party, you've got a long way to go my friend. Truth is the con men will always run both sides of the debate the real trick is to turn the tables on the one's holding the cards. Just look at the 2016 democrat party, beyond corrupt nuclear waste tier train wreck, these are you're representatives, kek. The right is almost equally corrupt but the leftists I talk to don't even wan't to hear about it. The system is rigged by con men so we have no say, Communism, just another form of a con will not fix that.

>>133526960
are you seriously using overall GDP as a measure here. That red line basically shows population growth

>>133532003
The state exists to represent the interests of one class and to oppress the other. A capitalist state oppresses the proletariat, a socialist state oppresses the capitalists. When capitalism is erradicated, society will be classless, and the state will loose its purpose, wither away.

>>133528139
Oldfag

>>133532765
Maybe those people needed oppression what makes you the judge of that?

>>133532669
Oh come the fuck on. I fucking hate the Democratic Party, why would you even closely associate it with communism, Obama even openly stated that communism is evil, and Sanders isn't a socialist but a social democrat. I can as well just go ahead and say that some neocon cuckservatives are representative for what you argue for, or Angela Merkel is, because she is in a conservative party.

That you debate only retards is not my fault, but then again Americans drag down everything and all the American leftists I've seen are absolute retards. Maybe Maoist-Third Worldism has a point.

>>133516284
You want the horrible fucking truth? You're probably already Marxist. Y'see, Marxism is NOT what the left says it is, and it is certainly not what Communists practice. Nazi Germany was probably closer to fuckin' Marxism than Soviet Russia.

The problem is that socialism in general tends not to fulfill Marxist principles, especially if the populist movement that institutes it does so via extreme violence.

Never trust a fucking commie and never assume that they have ANY idea what they're talking about. Never identify yourself as Marxist to anyone for any reason because they will read all the wrong things from that statement and assume you're some ANTIFA cocksmoker.

>>133533060
let me just ask you this then, who's to say a bigger gov't that would be necessary to instill a UBI or other socialist systems, wouldn't be vulnerable to these same (((con men))) that run both sides against the middle.

As I said earlier the MTA union mafia can't properly run maintenance with billions of dollars at their disposal while some make 300K to punch tickets.

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>>133526960
>he thinks the drop is because of capitalism and not because of that drunk retard Yeltsin and the rapid change of the economic type of system
Also, pic semi-related.

>>133534137
apart from china seems 50s and 60s were a golden age everywhere...

>>133533823
Nobody because I'm not advocating for reforms such as the ones you mentioned. As long as the system runs the way it does reforms from inside the system are useless, we want to implement an entirely new system. Social Democracy is flawed because it stifles innovation and investment, and both is needed for capitalism to function. That's why we want to abolish capitalism and replace it with socialism, in a way in which the ones managing shit don't have contradicting interests to the good of the people. For example, during the 30s in the USSR, workers could snitch out a manager or director who was corrupt, by filing a complaint to the party or vote him out directly and immediately throughout a worker council. And I don't have to remind you that betraying the workers under Stalin doesn't just mean a fine, it means you get shot at the wall. This way, the interests of the director of a firm would always be to work in the interests of the working people.

This system was undermined 1956 by Krushchevs liberal reforms, who granted more autonomy to the managers and directors.

>>133523874

The Russian Empire was well on track to industrialization and modernization before the Communists exploited the tensions caused by the war to seize power.

>>133516284

You dont need to eat

>>133534137
No shit, Krushchev and Brezhnev ruined the Soviet Union.

>>133534302
They just had civil war.

>>133523874
>As I said, in a proletarian democracy capitalists gets oppressed.
Editor's Note: The Bolsheviks violently exterminated the Romanov family and then proceeded to exterminate every major political dissident under the assertion that they were being oppressed.

>>133534720
If the communists didn't industrialize the country like they did with that speed, the Germans would have won in 1942. Looks to me the Bolsheviks actually secured the Russian people's survival.

>>133534302
>50s and 60s were a golden age
Yes, the so-called "Post-war economic boom/miracle".
It was nearly everywhere: W.Germany, Japan, France, USSR, S.Korea and especially US.
It was mostly because of the productivty growth due to new types of machines, deregulation and international trade and cooperation(USSR with its satelites and US with W.Europe).
In fact, your debt was on the brink of repayment in '75.

>china
Yeah, Mao was an idiot.
Thanks to the reforms in early 80's, China is a global power now.

>>133534808
no, in the 50s the chinese did retarded economic programmes and in the 60s the retarded cultural revolution.

>>133534979
>If the communists didn't industrialize the country like they did with that speed, the Germans would have won in 1942
Oh please, as if Russian technology or industry was even remotely comparable to the Nazis. The communists winning WW2 had nothing to do with their industry and everything to do with the fact their tremendous army of conscripts were told to advance or be shot dead by the men behind them.

That is how communists make war. They drive men at their enemies like cattle.

>>133534889
The reason because the killed the Tsar and his kids was because if they have lived, the white opposition could have used them as a rallying point.

Also,
>a feudal tyrant
>not oppressive
wut

>>133516284

Can only work if you trust the ethics of all.

History (and the present) have taught otherwise. Because eventually someone gets tired of being held down (which is how it plays out in real life, not the utopian sharing paradise)

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>>133516284
If you don't I'll shoot you, your family, your friends, and anyone who ever sold you a perogie

>>133535170
>m-m-muh tyranny
Ladies and gentlemen commies. "It's okay to kill tyrants when there's only one of them and not an entire corrupt regime made out of them."

Because Stalin was such a benevolent democratically elected leader, clearly.

Fucking commies.

>>133535093
>>133535116
Mao wasn't that bad actually. There is almost no correct information in the mainstream about that era.

https://youtu.be/Rh-4gsDjAKg

>>133535339
>Mao was actually good, ignore the tens of thousands of defectors who wrote and told their story, this youtube propaganda video should convince you!

Modern day communists are a joke.

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>>133535304
this kills the soviet

>>133535310
>live under Tsar Nikolaus
>be a serf on a plantation

>live under Stalin
>have an apartment and go to university where you meet a cute chick that is now allowed to study

Totally the same thing anon

>>133535550
Oops, wrong graph.
Wait a sec.

>>133535576
>live under Tsa Nikolaus
>be a serf on a plantation

>live under Stalin
>get shot in the back of the head for questioning whether it was right to kill the Romanov's children too

Fixed that for you.

>>133535536
Glad that /pol/ is now openly Kissinger style Jewish Neocon

>>133535709
deserved desu

Holodomor didn't happen, but it should have

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>>133535339
>>133535610
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform

>Economic reforms introducing market principles began in 1978 and were carried out in two stages. The first stage, in the late 1970s and early 1980s, involved the decollectivization of agriculture, the opening up of the country to foreign investment, and permission for entrepreneurs to start businesses. However, most industry remained state-owned. The second stage of reform, in the late 1980s and 1990s, involved the privatization and contracting out of much state-owned industry and the lifting of price controls, protectionist policies, and regulations, although state monopolies in sectors such as banking and petroleum remained. The private sector grew remarkably, accounting for as much as 70 percent of China's gross domestic product by 2005. From 1978 until 2013, unprecedented growth occurred, with the economy increasing by 9.5% a year.

>>133516284
Some times it is fun living in a cult that follows the ramblings of a drunken madman who made up an insane illogical theory about feudalism and capitalism in 1848, and that this really outdated theory still can somehow stand up in 2017.

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>>133534623
Sorry bro you lost me with the full retard revolutionary garbage, based entirely off of failed ideas, good luck with your communist revolution in candy-land that'll never happen in my lifetime. I agree things are fucked up the banks and corporations are thieves, work needs to be done in the broken system, if not a revolution of some kind, but scratch building a new society would take lifetimes; and again you assume everybody will get their fair share in this muh honor system imaginary utopia, where there is no favoritism or conning going on at all and everybody will act like jesus christ himself because reasons and we're smarter now.

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>>133516284
Maybe you've had a brain hemorrhage, or became mentally retarded some other way, then Marxism is for you.

Oh and have yet to see a communist use Capitalism in its correct context.. Top KEK.

>>133534623
also who is we and why do I only hear from retards?

>>133536247
Well we are actually trying to implement a system where you don't have to rely on people's idealism but where people automatically work in the interest of the common good. I agree that there isn't going to be a revolution quite soon in the West, so all we can do is to support revolutionary projects in the developing world like in Rojava, Cuba or Kerala.

>>133535944
Just be ready for the rope when it finally wraps around your neck.

>>133536421
Idk who these "leftists" are you talk about. Most liberal SJW aren't socialists, but they habe appropriated the name in the US. In Europe, people usually associate different stuff with it than left-liberal snowflakes

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>>133516284

The only reason to be a Marxist is to honer those poor young men, who bought the communist meme and payed with their lives so that we can see how shitty that ideology and economic system is.

I live in a semi-socialist country and shit will hit the fan in 2020 when time for us to elect a new president arrives and the current government will do anything to stay in power, even killing their own citizens. We will be Venezuela 2.0.

>>133536591
>Rojava
Can't do shit without US aid. Without the oil beneath its lands, Rojava is mostly desert anyway.
>Cuba
Failing state.
>Kerala
Literally who?

Shame you didn't also mention Venezuela, kek.

>>133536591
>Well we are actually trying to implement a system where you don't have to rely on people's idealism but where people automatically work in the interest of the common good.

Sounds like slavery, what a coincidence.

>>133516284
Get a hard job for little pay with your bills pillig up. You will want to start the revolution for about a week.

>>133536943
>Can't do shit without US aid. Without the oil beneath its lands, Rojava is mostly desert anyway
And? I'm not trying to have a pissing contest, I simply state projects that exists right now that are more or less faithful to the communist idea. I never claimed that they are muh powerful

>Failing state
Where are the proofs

>Literally who?
The only state in India where you don't poo in da loo, ruled by Marxist-Leninists.

>Venezuela
Has over 60% of the economy in the private sector and is decidedly not marxist. If they would be true Marxist-Leninists they would have diversified the economy instead of relying on muh oil exports.

>>133536959
>not having exploitation is slavery
I know you are Anglo so you only believe in negative freedoms but positive freedoms are real too.

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>>133519684

>>133537557
More bullshit Marxist none words.

>Look I have no argument, so I'm just going to put a bunch of words in front of other words and pretend that I'm some sort of intellectual and that those none statements mean something.

No wonder you college drop outs are... Well a bunch of college drop outs.

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>>133537437
>state projects
I meant that Rojava would never exist as an independant ML state, or if it does become independant, it will quickly failed

>Where are the proofs
Go in Florida and you will see milions of those proofs.

>ruled by Marxist-Leninists
Wrong, it's DemSoc and they also poo in da loo. Every indian does.

>decidedly not marxist
>seizure of private farms and industry
>repression of free speech and opposition
>govt.-supporting millitias on the streets
>welfare state
>not socialist

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>>133537818
I fucking hear that!

>>133534979

The Soviets won because they copied the old Russian doctrine of hurling their conscripted male population at the enemy until the enemy withered.

You're also assuming that the Nazis would have assumed power without a communist threat to rally against. It was the Soviets who supported the Spartacists and Communist rebellion in Europe during the interwar era, prompting an Anti-Communist backlash in turn.

>>133538081
Leftists are like trying to con as medieval wizards or something but in the present day: we should have absolute power because we've got some good ideas about society and government, really they are very good, you should try them some time, you'll get a free magic goat too.

>>133516284
>convince me on why I should hurt myself and my community with such a rediculous ideology

( you )

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>>133538726
Free Magic Goat, Well why the fuck didn't you say so.. Forget paradise, I want me a magic goat!

>>133538336
don't forget Illinois (((chicago)))

>>133538336
Rojava isn't ML anymore, it's communalist, an ideology developed by Murray Bookchin.

Expats aren't really a good source man. Show me how the Cuban economy is collapsing - they've manage to survive the stop of pesticide and fertilizer imports from the Eastern Bloc after 1991 and still do a lot better than most carribbean countries. No unemployment, no homelessness, good health, high education,...

Kerala is DemSoc in practice but their government is ML. They just can't do more because they are not independent. Still, their agriculture and welfare system is managed by a council system and their successes are visible.

>muh Venezuela
I'm not completely denying that the government is somehow socialist, but it is certainly not a socialist country, by any definition. There can't be private property in socialism. Look I'm willing to admit that North Korea is pretty much socialist - so you see I'm not cherrypicking my examples.

>>133535339

Couple million dead Chinamen, and it's a success?

So successful, in fact, that his policies were rejected only a couple years after he croaked?

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>>133516284
Why are the black helicopter and jet invading the white jet's nation?

>>133535944

>This peasant has two mules and five chickens
>He doesn't have 1 mule and 2 chickens
>HE IS KULAK HE IS OPPRESSOR KILL KILL KILL

>>133538595
The real world isn't Warhammer 40k. The Soviets won because they could spawn more heavy tanks (T-34) than the Germans due to a superior industrial output, and the Germans didn't have heavy tanks to begin with when they started the invasion.

>>133539299
>39299 ▶
>>>133538336
>so every single time its a con... except when i do it. Good luck bra.

>>133539318
Have you watched the video? When a famine happens under capitalism it's never capitalisms fault, when it does in communism its communisms fault? Have you ever thought that the historical conditions caused the famine and not socialist system?

>>133539697
Dude, there are plenty of examples when socialism was successful. Don't play this game with me, I'm not a Leftcom.

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>>133532489
To the question of legitimacy:
Of course rule is grounded in power, but the question of legitimacy is moderating the power of a monarch, that was the point. It bounds both serv and lord.

Second paragraph the lord is not the Lord (and Savoir), to be clear, I am talking about the worldly land-lord.

Church and nobility are not only in competition for personal reasons but as an Estate. These two Estates are founded on completely different basis. The nobility on the power of reality and the clergy on the power of thought. Their fight was always the fight between Idealism and Materialism.
In my eyes this is a significant difference, especially in regards of the rest of society.
Does this have any place in Marxist histography?
>An example is the alliance of all European states against the French revolution
More like the European Estates

>>133536591

>Rojava

It's going to be bombed to smithereens by the Turks or get swamped over by inter-Kurdish infighting in a couple years.

>Cuba

Failed state. A false utopia led by a 'Revolutionary' who died with $10 Million in the bank and a yacht or two in the harbor.

>Kerala

It's still apart of increasingly capitalist India, you idiot. Socialism failed India utterly under the Gandhis, and millions of Indians still haven't gotten the message.

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>>133539360

hmm really makes you think

>>133539299
>no homelessness, good health, high education
Lad, I....

> it's communalist
Still, nothing.
Just a buffer between roaches and Assad.
And also, there are still many arab tribes within Rojava who aren't very left-leaning, so to speak.

I agree with Kerala, tho. Still, won't make a change and "spark the global revolution".

Venezuela was praised by many western socialists when Chavez was still alive, tho.
Certainly they are not fully socialist, but there was an intention to become. The 2014 crash of the oil prices fucked them HARD.

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>>133539299
>No unemployment, no homelessness, good health, high education,...

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Someone answer me this, what happens when automation kills so many jobs that there is no more consumers to buy the products the companies are making? I'm not a communist or a Nazi but I am concerned about the future nonetheless.

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>>133516284
Don't. Marxism is fucking cancer and a Jew plot as well.

>>133540536
>automation
No workers=>No wages=>No consumers=>No demand=>Collapse of the system

It will be a suicide to implement global automatization.

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>>133540536

>A.I. advances
>robot rights
>robots sue for reparations
>robots make stuff for the rich and each other
>both poor man and obsolete robots will be homeless
>the poor man dies out

>>133540027
>It bounds both serv and lord
Unequally so. The illiterate peasentry don't have much to say in it, while the ruling class can always resort to mental gymnastics to justify the most atrocious shit. When Friedrich II. announced that he's an enlightened monarch and discared divine right, what did really change for the average Prussian?

>These two Estates are founded on completely different basis
They are both part of the ruling class. The distinction of warrior and priest would be irrelevant when it comes to the fact that both are not producing value. However, I have a small objection to that: The estate of the church and the estate of nobles didn't exist in the early middle ages, it was rather a concept the church came up with to legitimize the thousends of already existing proto-knights who were an inevitability at this point. Before there were just working people and praying people.

>In my eyes this is a significant difference, especially in regards of the rest of society
Is it really? Remember in Germany there were prince-bishops which were virtually indistinguishable from you average duke or count. Just because the peasents didn't make politics doesn't mean they aren't eventually a historical actors when conditions change. The reason the French Revolution overthrew the system of the estates was that the so-called "warriors" weren't warriors anymore, they were sycophants and parasites at the royal court, politics have been centralized and economy as been privatized. This created a new material base, and therefore, revolution.

>Does this have any place in Marxist histography?
Of course. But the question is a little bit like the Chicken and Egg, what came first: We argue that the material conditions came first, and then the superstructure (religion, laws, culture, values...) changes accordingly. Historical materialism means that systems of oppression have contradictions, such as feudalism in 1800, and this causes class struggle.

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Marxism offers strong support for free trade and other enlightened social policies.

>>133541458
>>133541458
>>133541458

Have you ever asked yourself why everything that you do involves so much force and violence?

Why does the rest of society find a job, a wife, have kids and live peacefully?

Why are you such a useless jealous cunt?

>>133540308
>lad, I
It's true.

>Venezuela was praised by many western socialists when Chavez was still alive, tho
Nobody really knew what he was gonna do when he came into power. He was anti-imperialist, that was enough for most.

>The 2014 crash of the oil prices fucked them HARD
Yes, that's why they should have diversified the economy, like every other Marxist-Leninist state did before them.

>>133541735
I'm a student who works two side jobs and has a hot girlfriend. Nice projecting though.

>>133540887
>>133540887
>>133540887

That's not how economies work. Your entire thought process is flawed and based on nothing but fallacy from start to finish.

>>133540940
>the poor man dies out
This isn't necessarily a bad thing. It would kill off all the niggers and retards.

>>133542000
>>133542000
>>133542000

That's not what would happen anyway. We would have more retards and to be honest I don't even care if that happens, they do not affect me negatively in any way.

>>133541633
The reasons he said this because Free Trade was a BAD THING according to Marx, therefore conditions would get so bad that there would be an revolution.

It's called accelerationism, you Nazis do the same thing, you feed off social unrest to get into power.

>>133542125
Do you have to quote everything three times? Do you need so much attention?

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>>133516284
>why I should be a Marxist
cuz Captcha says to (pic related)

>>133542227
That's what I said, enlightened social policies like free trade, or in other words, bad things for people I do not like. Fuck proles.

>>133542313
>>133542313
>>133542313

I know when I am talking to a communist/socialist it's like I am speaking to a 5 year old, so I make it big and bold for you morons to see.

>>133541914
But when a full automation happens, from where will humans(consumers) earn money?
Govt. handouts? No, scratch that. If there are no working consumers, how will the govt. collect taxes?

>>133542712
Quetzalcoatl will have returned and ushered in the end of the world long before full automation happens, my man. Prove he won't.

>>133540536
We are at least century away from big roll out implementation, since their are huge tech issues. (father worked for big globalist corp.) Cross that commie bridge when we get to it thank you very much.

>>133542712
>>133542712
>>133542712

Consider the possibility that "full automation" is like operating at "99% efficiency". Let's say we are hypothetically operating at "50% efficiency" in the creation of food/water/shelter at the current moment. When we operate at 99% efficiency with full automation food/water/shelter will be as ubiquitous as dirt and it will take the average person literally no work to attain all 3 that they need to live with a very high standard of living.

>>133516284
you're obviously a faggot. natural fit

>>133542712
>>133542712
>>133542712

At our current efficiency level the "average income" american has a higher standard of living than the kings of the 1100's because of "automation". Automation means less work is required for a higher standard of living. In the future of "complete automation" the poorest of the poor will have a higher standard of living than the "1%" of today because all that work will be done so efficiently that the luxuries of today will become society standards due to mass production and proper scale of creation techniques.

>>133539566

Tanks were not the determinant factor. They were one of many. Add to it Lend-Lease aid in the form of trucks, the Winter, and Germany's overall poor logistical network, and you have other factors besides industrial production that affected the course of the war. The T-34, BTW, was a Medium Tank. The Germans had similar vehicles by Barbarossa, but these, while present, were comparatively under-gunned in the beginning stages.

Nonetheless, the USSR's advantage in manpower was a major reason why the won. Go from battle to battle, and they often had double the casualties of the Germans. A smaller nation could not have sustained such losses. The USSR, being as they were and having a 'We have Reserves' kind of attitude, accentuated this in battle.

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FUCK ALL C*MMUNISTS

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>>133516284
Free helicopter rides.
>"Free" helicopter rides.

>>133543486
maybe, but not for at least a century.

>>133543486
>average income" american has a higher standard of living than the kings of the 1100's
I don't own a castle and can't produce ten bastard children with cute virgins and tavern wenches.

>>133543771
Speak for yourself, learn some game. KEK

>>133543771
>>133543771
>>133543771

You also don't die from a common cold. You have running water, food and a computer. Additionally, your apartment/house/dwelling would be considered a fortress to any king from that time. I'll humor you though and say that "maybe you don't live better than a king" (even though most of us really do) the average american lifestyle is surely better than the nobles of the time.

>>133543743
>>133543743
>>133543743

Automation is already making the lives of billions of people literally easier and happier than 500 years ago. The average person in the year 1400 lived under conditions that would be considered "extreme poverty" by todays standards.

>>133544190
>the average american lifestyle is surely better than the nobles of the time.
This. Even niggers on welfare live better than 99% of all the humans who have ever lived.

>>133543147
>>133543486
Thanks. Really shed some light on that issue for me.

Also, wouldn't automatization promote materialism and hedonistic life?

>>133544424
Ultimately, the automation arguments leftards make around here boil down to a form of false dilemma fallacy, where they assert that it's either full automation or nothing, and that only a fool would decline automation, when really there is a third path, and that is incremental improvement, the only one, in fact, with a solid history of successful application.

>>133517252
>unless you want to genocide 95% of the planet, you are going to need some form of marxism.
We better start building ovens then

>>133544424
still, not automated enough to implement a worldwide technocratic socialist government (which some are saying is enough of a reason). Not when we still have poor not living under city welfare programs in our own country.

>>133545131
>missing the point
>moving the goalposts
You are the cancer that is killing /pol/.

>>133543771
>>133543771
>>133543771

My god. Just saw your post history and you are obviously a brainwashed butthurt commie. 90% of this country has a job and gets along just fine. This means that if you cannot get a job and work on a team without bitching you are by definition in the bottom 10%(probably lower) on the human dominance hierarchy. I hope you realize that the only reason that you are against/unable to cope in today's freemarket society is either:

A. Your body is too weak to work properly.

B. Your IQ is too low to work properly.

C. You "WILL" is too weak to get your able body/mind to work properly.

D. Some combination of all of the above.

Get some help, pull yourself together. I have a cousin with schiz and 1 arm, he literally has a girlfriend and a job all on his own.

>>133519326
So many falsehoods wrapped up in pseudointellectual nonsense, all taken as fact without question.
>dialectical materialism
Give me a break.

>>133545517
what are you on about? I was basically saying the same thing you were...

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>>133516284
a) you get to know that all your bullies either starve, get shot or get into a position of power and then years later get shot.
b) gibmedats, than starvation
c) crowdsourcing of severe natural catastrophes
d) watch your leaders throw decadent feasts for foreigners to prove there's no famine

>>133516284
>Convince me on why I should be a Marxist?
That picture pretty much sums it up. Just make the kid 30 years old.

>>133543603
>Nonetheless, the USSR's advantage in manpower was a major reason why the won. Go from battle to battle, and they often had double the casualties of the Germans.
This says as much about the communistic valuation (or lack) of human life than it does about anything else. Real people know when to make a tactical retreat.

>>133545926
My fault. I took some of your words out of context, instead of CTRL + F on your ID to get an idea of where you were coming from.

>>133544862
>>133544862
>>133544862

I'll answer if you are still there.

>>133545131
>>133545131
>>133545131

I'm not advocating for anything socialist. Socialism is aggressive force which I am against.

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>>133545613
>ad hominem
lol

You come over as a typical American, absolutely uneducated but thinks he knows everything, and that his country is the best in the world. I wonder why I'm the brainwashed one when you literally are a servant of the ruling ideology...

>>133546826
Meanwhile, genociding Yemeniti for muh freedumz is not violent at all.

>>133547003
>>133547003
>>133547003

90% of us work in a voluntary manner and are perfectly happy with the way things are. You are the one that sounds butthurt about having to work. Prove me wrong.

Do you work?
Are you happy with your work?
Do you have a wife?
Do you have kids?
What are you upset about?

>>133545629
Make an argument bong or fuck off.

>>133547128
>>133547128
>>133547128

I'm against the military expenditures as you are.

>>133547266
I'm not upset about anything, why would you conclude that? I'm just not okay a) with the idea of my surplus value of labor being extorted from me b) that our economic system requires imperialism to survive which causes worldwide death and misery and c) that our system has inherent contradictions that will lead to crashes and collapse. It's called "having an opinion" you tool.

>>133547003
>You come over as a typical American,

how much I hate europoors. What is it with this arrogance? You really believe one of the richest and most powerful nations gets to get where with the power of people being uneducated and stupid? kill yourself.

you just block out valid lines of thought with your jingoist weirdo chauvinism. why are leftists always such racist fucks? what is wrong with you?

>>133543147
They moral decay of western society due to years of peace and lack of strife would be multiplied exponentially in an automated system like you propose. Societies function isn't/shouldn't be about freeing people from work. Man needs to expend his energy, his "will to power" and being able to work and own property allows him to feel in control of his own destiny. How anyone thinks this techno-socialist pipe dream would not cannibalize itself out of boredom is beyond me.

>>133547483
But you fail to realize that our system, including cheap-ass consumer products, cheap oil prices and the absence of atrocious working conditions can only exist because of imperialist meddling, outsourcing of labor and net extraction of wealth from the Third World? Strip that away from the west, and lives would be a hell of a lot worse than they are now.

>>133547583
>>133547583
>>133547583

I have a boss and he provided the land, tools and other resources for me to work properly. He should obviously be compensated more.

You earn your share of the profits in the form of a "WAGE" moron.

I am against imperialism as well. Capitalism is literally just free markets which exist even amongst the most primitive of tribes.

I'm ok with crashes if it means I also get to have electricity and running water.

>>133547658
Read the guy's posts, with his stupid mannerism to quote everything three times and to talk like an absolute hillbilly. What is worse than that are Germans who let themselves being cucked by Americans and lick the boots of their overlords.

>>133547292
>Arguing with communists.
No thanks. Marx's take on history is mind-numbingly retarded. If you aren't able to see this then you are also.